Should Christians Support Female Leadership in Government?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll be answering the age -old question, should

Christians support female leadership in government? Now, the reason that we're doing this episode right now is because last month, on September 25th,

Italy elected a new prime minister, and they're sort of painting this as a shift to the far right for Italy, and kind of like a return to fascism, and I'm not...

It's amazing that they're doing that because she's conservative and a woman, and I thought that if they're a woman, then you should be thrilled by that, but apparently she's not the right kind of woman.

Yeah, hey, no, look. She's breaking the glass ceiling, man. I mean, come on. This is a victory for women everywhere, right?

No, obviously, the left is just so inconsistent with these things. Yeah, you have to be the right kind of woman.

If you're a conservative woman, then you're actually just a man, basically, is how they probably treat it.

And if you're a conservative black person, then you're a white person, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

They're super inconsistent on these things. But anyways, so Italy elected their new prime minister,

Giorgia Maloney, and this is really being painted from...

Obviously, from the left, it's being painted as like a return to World War II fascism under Mussolini, but then for conservatives, it's being painted as a massive victory, right?

A sort of return to normalcy in a certain sense. And even amongst

Christians, this has been like... I've seen a lot of Christians that I interact with online who try to follow these things, who are really excited about her victory in this election over in Italy.

And so the interesting question here, though, then becomes, obviously, as Christians, typically, leadership is something that is assigned to men, right?

And so it seems like a weird sort of, what do we do with this?

Is there room in the Bible to say, hey, you know what? Yeah, there is a time and a place to say, we need female leadership in government.

Or is the Bible teaching us that, no, this is something that is, much like the office of pastor or elder is, this is an office that needs to be held by a man.

And so that's why we're covering this episode today. That's why we're answering this question.

So, Tim, I guess we'll just start out with, should we be supporting someone like Georgia Maloney winning office over in Italy?

Yeah, I think it's a, I think in one level it's a very easy question to answer, but then another level it's a little bit more difficult than you might imagine.

So I think my perspective of watching all this go down is somewhat similar to what you're talking about.

So the left is obviously having a meltdown. And as an individual who is emotionally invested in the left having meltdowns, then anytime they're having a meltdown, you can do a small celebration in the quiet corners of your heart during that moment.

And I mean, the taste of leftist tears is sweet to the palate kind of thing.

So it is. I don't remember reading that Bible verse. I'll have to go back and find it. It's in there somewhere.

No, there's a sense in which when you're living in times like we're living in right now, you can basically trust that anything the left says is wrong, right?

So anything that they're concerned about, you think that's probably a good thing, right? I mean, that's about the level of discernment you need to have in order to appropriately read the times right now.

If baby murderers and flesh mutilators are upset, I probably need to be happy, right?

Right. So it seems like everything that they're suppressing, you can— I mean, this is what happens when you're in communist countries.

You learn that whatever is being suppressed is the truth, right? So you learn to believe almost exactly the opposite of everything that's being said.

And you can't obviously put that forward as a way of discerning truth from error in an absolute sense.

But then if you went that way, you'd probably be in a lot better position than the kind of individual who's believing everything that they're being told, right?

Right, yeah. In that kind of context, it's probably wise, yeah. Yeah. So there's a sense in which if they're looking at this lady as if she is literally the incarnation of Hitler in female form.

Which is basically—I mean, that's pretty much what they're saying in these articles. Right.

So then that must mean that she's up to something good, right? I mean, I've listened to her soundbites on Twitter, and I think there's a lot there that is praiseworthy and a lot there that—

I mean, not everything there is praiseworthy, but a lot there is good, you know? So I think should you support that?

Well, I think it's hard. So as you read the Bible, Isaiah 3 .12

says of the Israelites, "'Infants are their oppressors, and women rule over them.

O my people, your gods mislead you, and they've swallowed up the course of your path.'" So the idea of infants ruling over people or women ruling over them, this is a shameful thing in the

Bible. This is not the way that God's designed it to be. Regardless of whether or not there is some law in the

Bible that says that this is fundamentally sinful, as there would be in the case of—the

Bible teaches that male leadership is the only kind of leadership that is permissible within the church.

This is obviously put forward as a shameful state of affairs by God, and God is obviously not the kind of God— he's immutable, he's not going to change, and so his perspective of these things isn't going to change.

So this is—if a nation is ruled by women, that should be a shameful set of affairs. And that verse is not even necessarily speaking in a literal way, right?

It's just—isn't that verse more communicating, like, the men who are leading are leading like women and children?

Yeah, I mean, well, I need a—I'll follow that into something

I'll look over and see. Because the only reason I say that is because my understanding was, you know, it is speaking that way, and so if having men leading like women and children is shameful, then having literal women and children must be even more so, right?

Yeah, I mean, there are situations—I mean, obviously the kings that are mentioned there are men, but then you have situations like Ahab and Jezebel, for instance, where Jezebel is the real power behind the throne and not

Ahab in that way. Yeah, or several times where it's like, you know, a young child or teenager inherits the throne because of an assassination or whatever—someone gets killed in battle or whatever happened.

So there's literal correspondence there, too, that I would say are real, but then there's also—there could be some figurative kind of elements there, too.

But yeah, that's definitely something I'll look into more. But I think the broader point, though, is it is a shameful—it's supposed to be a shameful set of affairs, but then we don't realize why that's the case anymore.

And the reason why that's the case is somewhat obvious. I mean, it's obviously the case because God has uniquely designed men and women to do different things.

And men—there are character traits that are necessary for a good ruler, if you think about it.

And I think when you're living in peacetime, one of the things you realize is that there are different expectations of leadership during peacetime than there are during wartime.

But most nations throughout the history of the world have been in wartime mode. And so it's one of those things where you look at all the female secretaries of defense that are there, and it's not inspiring of great confidence, and it's not intimidating in any way, and you don't think that this is not a good advertisement.

It doesn't make for the same kind of advertisement that the Russian troop promotional videos made a year ago or whatever.

Then the sexually confused women troop—

Fighting for equality, yeah. Fighting for equality. Yeah, so I think God's uniquely designed men to have a lot more courage than women have.

God has designed men to be a lot more logical in the way that they think, meaning they're not as prone to emotion at times.

Men are prone to emotion in different ways, but they're much more prone to have certain virtues like temperance and fortitude, and to be able to face danger, and to be cool -headed and calm when danger comes, and to make calculated risks that are required.

It takes a toll on you to be able to send troops into battle, right?

It takes a pretty big toll upon you to be able to have that kind of courage to know that you need to gain that inch on the battlefield, and that inch is going to cost you 10 ,000 lives, and to know that you have to have someone who's willing to do that and not willing to think in emotional terms at that point, but think in terms of strategy and tactics and the need of the moment, right?

If you just think about the history of the world, the conquest of the nations throughout the history of the world, it's always been through men making these kinds of tough decisions.

I think every husband knows, right now, every husband knows these things to some degree.

My goodness, there are certain subjects I don't talk about in front of my wife, right?

Because I know that she's going to process them in a different sort of way than I'm going to process them.

I'm not going to sit here and talk about the nuclear threat with Russia at the moment, with her, for any extended length of time.

I'm not going to do that. Because she's just going to be tempted to worry about it, right?

Why do I want her to worry about it? I don't know if you have the same kind of dynamics that are happening there. We talked about the

Pitbull stuff, and it's like, I'm not going to share those articles with her. Because we're just made differently, and I can process that and talk about that in a different way.

I'm not saying that all women are completely unable to have tough conversations like that, without being filled with anxiety and worry and fear.

It's just to say that that's difficult, right? And we're different. God's made men to be different.

He's made men to face danger in certain ways. He's made men to lead, and He's made women in general to follow.

If you have a lady who is the one who is supposed to be the model of strength and courage and stability, you become a laughingstock as a nation, because you realize that's the best you've got, right?

Yeah, that feels weird in a certain sense. Like to say, hey, be the one who is leading boldly, leading with strength, leading with courage, willing to make the hard decisions when the time comes, and willing to offend.

It feels weird in a lot of ways to ask a woman to do that compared to asking a man to do that, right?

Right, and the reason why is because God hasn't designed women to be in that role. And so that's part of the difference between the

Complementarian movement by and large, and what you might describe as the patriarchal kind of movement by and large, is that essentially the

Complementarian movement has a difficult time seeing ontological differences between men and women at that point, and basically just retreats to the home.

Like there's differences within the home, there's differences within the church, and doesn't see it go broader than that. But as you read the

Bible, my people, infants of the oppressors, women rule over them, that's just an example, that's an example of the consistent testimony of all the

Bible. It's men who are in leadership throughout all the Bible, right? Not just in the home and the churches, the whole thing, right?

Right, right. It's the men who go to war, it's the men who run the countries, with a few exceptions, and that's the way

God's designed it. I guess as you're trying to answer a question along these lines, there should be, in the

Christian acknowledgement, that God's obviously designed men to do something much better than women, and that's lead a country, rule a country, to be rulers.

God's designed men to do that, and so then it's a shameful set of affairs if the woman is the one who's doing that.

And we have to figure out, well, how do we respond to a scenario where the woman is the only sane one, right?

Right, yeah, yeah. Where the woman is the only sane one, and then if you have— like, they're accusing her of being the literal incarnation of Hitler, but then everyone on the other side, that's exactly what they are.

And so what if she's the only one who is sane at that point? What do you do there? Yeah, do you just, like, do you vote for her?

Do you vote for the side that you disagree with because they happen to be a man?

Or do you just say, like, hey, I'm just not going to vote at all? Like, what's the—as a Christian, what's the response there?

Yeah, I mean, I think if you were to take it in the realm of the church, where, like, the qualifications for a pastor are that they be the husband of one wife, they be a man,

I would take, you know, I would— and I were forced to pick between, like, the heretical man pastor or, like, the mostly solid female pastor, right?

I would say, well, both are unqualified, I'm done, I'm going to go, right? I have another—I'm leaving this place, right?

Right, yeah, yeah. If that's all I got, I'm going to leave, right? So I wouldn't—I would say,

I got two unqualified people here. Now, it's not so simple when you're at a country level. Like, you can't just pack up and leave, right?

Right, yeah, there's a lot more that goes into that. You can't—like, you're kind of stuck where you're at for the most part, and there's not the same kind of freedom at that point.

And I don't know that there's, like, an absolute prohibition against female rulers, but there is a statement that it's shameful.

And so you have, like, you know, you have law, you have right and wrong in the Bible, and you have, like, categories of shame and unwise.

And so I think, like, the idea of a female ruler should be a shameful thing. And if you're put in a situation where you're voting for Hitler or the conservative woman who's got a lot of things right,

I think you might say, well, I'm going to vote for the shameful option, but I'm going to let it be known that it's shameful.

Yeah. And let it be known why, right? Yeah. So, like, you're not necessarily jumping for joy, right?

Yeah, I mean, you should just— But then it's obviously better than picking the guy who's going to go and murder 6 million

Jews, right? Well, it's just to say, hey, this is all I got. And, you know,

I think there's a place to say that you're not morally obligated to vote, period, right?

And maybe, you know, that's something you might think about. But, I mean, if it really is, like, overwhelmingly a good candidate who is fighting for good things, and then it's a horrible candidate who is, like, just pure evil, like incarnation of Satan, you know,

I think you might say, well, you know, on the balance of all these things, one's a lot—like,

I have to swallow a lot less evil to endorse, right? So, I think there's some kind of place for that.

But at the same time, I mean, like, you are—in voting for her, you are making a vote, basically, to watch her neglect her family, right?

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, there are entailments of it that we shouldn't minimize, like her running for—

I mean, her being the prime minister basically means she's an unfaithful wife and an unfaithful mother. And there's no way around it, right?

That's just the way it works. Yeah, there's not enough time in the day to work a full -time job and then also go, you know, be the prime minister of Italy.

Right. Full -time job meaning taking care of your house and your children. Yeah, you're just not.

So, you're just basically abandoning your role as, you know, a wife and mother at that point. I just think we need to be honest about what is happening there and what are the entailments of this.

Now, you know, you say, hey, we'll weigh that unfaithfulness over and against the lives of, you know, millions of babies and whatever else and all the things involved.

I just think, well, there may be a case where you say, yeah, you gave me two bad choices and one is, you know, way worse than the other, right?

Yeah, yeah. But I'm going to notice, I'm not just going to, it's not just going to be, and I think this is where, like, you know, all the feminists there who are conservative are basically viewing this as a victory for women.

And I think you have to look at it and say, hey, this is not a victory for women, right? Right, yeah. Like, this is a shame to all the men out there, right?

This is a profound source of embarrassment to the men she is putting them to shame, right?

Yeah, there really shouldn't be. There really should be. And that's something that I feel like I don't see often, where, you know, you see women like this and no one's asking the question, why isn't there a man willing to say the same thing, right?

Now, maybe there's some complications that, for whatever reason, a man wasn't able to get there.

I don't know if they just weren't able to garner the same support for whatever reason or if there was some sort of coercion involved that set things up to be the way they are.

It's not just in this one specific example. I remember when we talked to John Harris, we mentioned

Megan Basham, right? And how she's constantly going out and calling out a lot of guys who are, at best, being really unwise in some of the things that they're saying, right?

And we were all kind of saying, hey, this is totally unfair to rely on Megan to be the one making these statements, right?

Where are the other guys with platforms that are like hers willing to say the same thing, right, and willing to stand up for truth?

So it does seem like part of the issue here is that there's just simply not men who, and I guess that's what you're getting at with the whole shame aspect.

They're just not willing to say what needs to be said, right? Yeah, I don't know if it's that they're not men or if there's just no market for it.

What do you mean, no market for it? Well, I mean, if I were president of the

United States, I would bring my tyrannical, patriarchal rule in a democratic form to this nation, but no one wants me.

You get what I'm saying? Right, right. Some of it is about, I'm sure that there are some, it's just there's not enough.

There's not enough, and the ones they have are all cowards, right? Right. And so that's the problem.

The ones that are put in place are a bunch of cowards, and that's a sign of shame.

I think there are people out there that could do it, it's just they may, there's a sense in which they're just, the people don't want them to, right?

Uh -huh, yeah, yeah. The people want the emasculated, effeminate man who's going to be just as sensitive as all the ladies are and just as spineless.

And so that's part of it too. But yeah,

I mean, I think one of the things that conservatives do at times is they, and this is something that's a little bit frustrating, is that they will play off these impulses that people, like the diversity, equity, inclusion impulses when they benefit them.

So it's like, in a sense it's just like a game for them, but it's like, hey, yeah, yeah, we know that this is all nonsense or whatever, but let's celebrate this lady's achievement here because she's a conservative in that way.

And isn't this like a sign of female empowerment, you know, ha ha ha, you know, kind of thing. And it's just like, well, no, this is shameful.

We've done that in the church too, where there's times where it's just like, hey, yeah, yeah, we know the affirmative action stuff is nonsense.

We're going to make a statement on social justice and the gospel or whatever. We're going to do that. We need a black signer on there to sign off on the thing, right?

Right, yeah. But then it's just like, come on, you don't need a woman saying it, right?

You don't need a certain color saying it. We don't have to go that route when it benefits us, right?

Right. And a lot of the conservative movement has done that with the sodomite situation and everything else.

And so you have all these conservative, you know, quote unquote, outlets now. I mean, what is it? Bruce Jenner is a news analyst on Fox or whatever now.

Oh, I don't know, but I wouldn't put it past him. Yeah. I mean, so you have like you have situations like that to where it's just like, well, like, what are your principles here?

Right. Like, what are the principles actually at this point? And it's like, well, if you have the gays on your side, conservative gays, conservative transgender people who are saying conservative things, then like we're going to be allies.

And it's like, well, no, I think just we don't need that kind of representation, provided that their politics are right.

Right. Right. Stick to your guns, stick to your principles as far as that goes. And I think that's something that's a little bit frustrating about this kind of conversation.

And I mean, I'm glad she's saying things that I wish more men in those positions were saying.

And I think that it's like it's better to get her than the psychopaths on the other side.

But then we should you know, we should be able to note that this is still like not good.

Right. Right. Yeah. Now, one of the. Let me say one more thing.

The problem is that like when you say something like that, you have all these like effeminate gospel coalition types who would say something like I'm saying.

But with the net effect of like what the real agenda they have is, is to get the leftists in office.

Right. So it's like so like there's you know, they may say some of the things

I'm saying, but then their point is that they're trying to get push the church left. Right. Right.

Yeah. So, you know, maybe I don't know that they're saying this out, you know, outright or anything.

But in our hypothetical situation where you have to vote for the, you know, the woman leader who's saying a lot of good things, maybe not everything's perfect.

And but and then you also have the, you know, baby murderer. Essentially, they're they're pushing, hey, we can't you know, we can't have when we can't have women leading.

Right. We need to vote for the baby murderer. Yeah, there's a moral equivalence there of just to say, hey, one little point of compromise is like equivalent to the sum total of all.

Right. Of the evil that the left is pushing. And so they did. I mean, they did that over and over again with Trump or something like that.

My example was obviously exaggerated, but I was going to bring up the, you know, hey, we can't we we you know, we can't vote for people based off of like their or we need to vote for people who are going to be, you know, morally responsible.

Right. And Trump's not. And we would agree. Right. Like, there's a lot of things that Trump has done that we're just like, yeah, that's not behavior that a

Christian would partake in. Right. But then, yeah, they've got a different agenda.

Right. Yeah. They latch on the same kind of thing with the Herschel Walker situation. So that'd be another example of that to where, you know, if he does have if he did commit adultery on his wife multiple times during the early years.

I mean, I don't know enough about his life and know enough to comment on what we should think about Herschel Walker in that way, meaning

I don't know if that was him like during the early parts of his life. And then now he's reformed, you know, like in terms of like in terms like he's actually legitimately become a

Christian. I don't know if he's been pretending the whole time, as his son says, this is just an act, you know, that he's been this solid

Christian guy the whole time. He's not. I don't know if that's his son talking in bitterness right now, or I don't know enough about it.

But I do know that the, you know, all the gospel coalition types are like with glee, like pointing this out as a point of hypocrisy for those on the right.

But then the whole agenda, though, is in service of trying to make everyone feel better about voting for the left.

Right. Voting for a literal baby murder. Well, I mean, I mean, like someone who is I mean,

I say literal voting for someone who is has made it a foundational aspect of their platform, you know, to write to push abortion and make it legal in as many ways as possible.

And Stacey Abrams, right? Yeah. I mean, like the worst, you know, possible person that you could think about, you know, and then you're going to pick you're going to point out some like very real things that could be concerning.

You know, I'm not trying to minimize at all, but at the same time, you have to say, well, what are the choices

I have? Right. What are the choices I have? And like, is there a way to like, say, if those things about Herschel Walker are right,

I don't condone those. But you have Hitler on the other side and these kind of things don't seem as bad as that.

OK. Yeah. As bad as it feels like we're talking about two different things here. Yeah. Yeah. So like the other side literally wants to dismember babies.

Right. Tear them apart in their mother's womb. Destroy society. Defund police. Right. Force us all to take poison.

They want to kill off half of us, you know, or more. I mean, I guess what they need is like we have eight million people or eight billion people or whatever.

And they're trying to get it down to 500 K or whatever, 500 million, you know, so that's get rid of 15 out of 16 of us.

So, you know, so I mean, like this is a pretty big difference here and I don't have to approve of everything.

But like if your game here is just to say that these are two comparable evils, I'm just going to push back and say they're not comparable evils while still saying they're evil.

Right. Right. And so I think I could say the same kind of thing with this kind of situation to say. Let me know.

I want to note that this is a shameful set of affairs, a really shameful set of affairs without saying it's the same level of or the same amount of moral evil as what the other side is doing.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things that we do a lot on the podcast is we often tell people, hey, so one of the answers when dealing with some specific subject, especially if it's like a pretty practical subject.

One of the things that we we tell people to do is like, hey, before you start thinking about who is send against you and all the ways that they've done bad things against you, you need to sit down and examine yourself and say, and which ways have

I send. Right. And so I want to give us the chance to do that now with with what we're saying.

So I'm sure there are a lot of people who are probably listening to this and they're thinking this is the most sexist thing

I have ever heard in my entire life. I didn't say they couldn't think logically.

Yeah. I will. I will note.

I didn't say that. They can't think logically. He says they can't think logically. He said they can't even get dressed by themselves.

All they're good for is just being barefoot pregnant in the kitchen, making babies. Yeah. Baby making factories who are meant to sweep your floors and make sandwiches.

Right. They are baby making factories that are made to make babies, sweep the floor, make sandwiches, do the dishes, do the laundry and make a home.

And they excel at that. So they can do all those things a lot better than I can do them.

So I praise the Lord that God gave us ladies to make babies for us and that are so nice to look at and make sandwiches that we could get physical gratification and just looking at their beautiful faces.

It's a funny conversation because it doesn't actually happen the other way at all.

What do you mean? I saw a funny video of a female cop who was basically harassing this old man in his car or whatever.

Did you see that video where they got in a fight on the side of the road or whatever? I don't know that I did.

It's one of those videos where, let me just ramble with an unconnected story here and see if I can make any sense here.

Okay. It's funny because it's like you have the lady cop who's pulling over this old man for driving like 50 something and a 35, 52 and a 35 or something like that.

And she comes and she's just like, you know, full bossy female cop, like yelling at him mode, you know, like from the very start.

And, you know, the guy kind of gets fed up with it and he jumps out of his car and she's like, what are you getting out of your car for?

You know, and he's like, I'm getting my license. You know, so he was done at that point and he's yelling at her and he shouldn't have been doing that.

But then, you know, as he come, she asked him to come over on the side of the car. And then she's basically looking at him and saying, you know, she asked this old guy who was like old enough to be her dad to like sit down on the ground.

Right. Sit down on the ground. And he's like, I'm not sitting down. You know, so she she starts shoving him, you know, she shoves him and he shoves her back, you know, and then like then she starts wrestling with them and he's wrestling with her back.

And I mean, it was just the dumbest thing that you could see in the world. But then, like, she can't get him subdued because he's like, he's, you know, he's an old guy, but he's stronger than her.

Right. So then some some guys on the side of the road, I think two or three guys stop their car and tackle him and pull him to the ground.

And then she's yelling at him like, you don't do that to a woman, you know, which,

I mean, it was just absurd from the outset. I mean, this is why females shouldn't be cops. Right. So I say something like that.

I say female shouldn't be cops. Why shouldn't they be cops? Because she obviously can't restrain an old man.

Right. By herself. She needs other men to help her do her job. She's not equipped to do that job.

And then if she's going to sit there and like, you know, fuss at some guy, you know, like he gets all ticked off and he handled it totally wrong.

But like so I'm I'm viewed as sexist for saying she shouldn't be a cop. Right. Right. But then her expectation is you don't like and this is one of the things that was so remarkable about the video.

You don't do that to a woman, she said. It's like, well, why not? Like, why not?

You're no different than a man. Why not? So I don't think he should have done that because I think it was embarrassing and shameful for him to do that, for him to pick on.

Like he should like now, I mean, she shouldn't have been pushing him like you're poking a bear. Right. I mean, you shouldn't be pushing someone for like, like there's no reason that you go sit on the ground and I'm going to push you around and like you're provoking someone.

But the issue is like she has an expectation that she's a woman. There's different rules for how she's treated, that she's selectively applying.

Right. Yeah. When they when they benefit, when they benefit. And then it's like you don't do that to a woman. It's like, well, why not?

Right. Why don't you do that to a woman? Well, because it's your job to protect women. Right.

So now if he were to fulfill his job, like everyone takes for granted, it is his job to protect her.

Right. It is his job to honor her. And no one thinks that you've reduced him to some protector.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Like no one thinks that it's not demeaning to him. Like so we have like the thing is we have all these expectations for men.

That are ironclad with no room whatsoever for variation at all.

Right. So when that one guy, I don't know who the guy is, but he gets on there and, you know. Fusses at the female politician, lady reporters or whatever.

I can't remember what the guy's name is, but he was messing with Alexandria Ocasio -Cortez. Everyone got on there and just said, like, you don't talk to a lady like that.

It's like, well, she's why not? Right. Like, I don't think you talk to a lady like that, too. But so everyone expects like the men to do their part and to play their role.

Right. Totally consistently, but then there's no expectation on the other side that that's to happen.

And so what you have to have, what you have to do is you have to pretend on the other side. Right. So, like, you have to you have to say that, like, all right, the lady cop is there and she's competent and she's capable.

Right. And she's enough and she's strong and she's powerful and she's independent and all that.

You have to say she's all these things. While at the same time, then it's the citizen's job, like the criminal's job to also give in to the delusion, too.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, well, no, she's just not capable of the job. Right.

So I just want to be honest and say she's not capable of the job. Right. OK. So if you want him to protect you, then don't get in that role, that position.

And you can't have it both ways. And so the same thing is happening with female leaders. Like, I just I'm just looking at them and saying they're not equipped for this job.

Like, men are equipped for this job. Yeah. God didn't design them for that role. Right. Right.

And so like now, if you like if you get in that role and, you know, a foreign leader says something you don't like and you get all emotional about it.

Right. Because he didn't talk to you the way that you deserve and you start making weird decisions.

Then what do we do? Right. What do we do at that point? Right. And so like that's where it's like, yeah, well, maybe you shouldn't be like you can't expect these foreign countries to operate, like to to basically play pretend for you to make to pretend like you're qualified for a job.

You get what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. You can't expect that of everyone around you. And like evil people in the world aren't going to go with that.

So like the same people should be able to say, hey, let's just not put you in a situation you're not qualified and equipped for.

Right. And let you do the things that you excel at. You know, and I think like that's the shame of this whole conversation is there are really things that women design like are much better at than men.

And there are all those things that they don't want to hear. But there are those that they're much better at that. Right. I mean, it's not even close.

I mean, I can't. You know, if you come over to our house, it doesn't look like it's decorated by a man.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At all. Okay. Like at all, at all, you know, and so, but then if it were decorated by me, it'd be a nightmare.

Right. And so, I mean, I think you want when like women excel when you put them in areas, they excel at and let them do the things that they excel at it.

And, you know, my wife's a much better mother than I'll ever be. Right.

It's not even, it's not even close, you know? And so like all those things that like, we think that like, that's not demeaning them.

That's like, give, like, let them do the things they're designed to do and praise them for doing it. Yeah. And you'll get a better society.

Right. So the more that we look to women to be strong and courageous, the more that no one knows what that is anymore.

And the more that we look to, you know, um, men to be, you know, sensitive and caring and all that.

And like you're living in a society that doesn't look very sensitive and caring, you know, we're looking to the wrong role models or putting the wrong people in the wrong situations.

And all that's happening is you're just messing it all up. So, yeah. I mean, if people don't, if you people want to say that sexist and it's like,

Hey, you know what, if you do the things that God's designed you to do, you'll find it with a good attitude, you'll find a lot more fulfillment and trying to do things that you're not designed to do.

If you want to go out there and be a cop, you can, but it'd be really frustrating for you because you're not good at it. You're not gonna be good at it.

You know? Yeah. It's like, um, you know, it's not sexist. It's looking at God's design and celebrating

God's design. Right. And then loving one another enough to try and put one another in situations where they're more likely to succeed based off of God's design.

Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, so like, you know, just watching some of those MMA fights where the women are beating each other to a pulp, you know, in the name of, you know, being tough and all that, it's like, they're sitting there crying with their face broken.

And it's like, yeah, you're not made for this. You know, you can do, you can throw yourself into something you're not made to do, but you're just gonna,

I mean, it's gonna go bad for you. Right. Just do the things God's called you to do and it'd be a lot better.

Yeah. So now that we've sort of talked through all of that stuff, you know, one of the things that really,

I mean, the tagline for the podcast is to say, you know, hey, we're equipping the saints for the works of ministry.

Right. So there's a, there's this practical aspect that we're trying to bring with the things that we talk about on the podcast.

So when it comes to this sort of topic, which, you know, in a lot of ways is sort of, you know, it's not necessarily inherently practical for, you know, for the random, you know, just individual who might be listening, you know, they're not, they're not, like we said earlier, they're not going to be able to necessarily run for, run for some government office.

Right. And trying to, in order to try and like replace or fill the void that some, a woman is trying to, to fulfill.

So what would you say are sort of like the, the practical ideas that we need to take away from this kind of discussion?

Well, I think there's a lot of ladies though that, I mean, there's, I mean, not by portion of population, but there's a lot of ladies who are basically throwing themselves into the battle at the political level and, and trying to be the conservative voice in that.

And they, I mean, I think, you know, for those individuals, they, you know, they are called to other things.

Right. They are called to other things in a more fundamental level. And like the more that you throw, like, I mean,

I think for the prime minister lady, it's practical, like meaning like, like for her, you know, she could build her home, a wise woman builds her home, or she could, you know, basically surrender her home.

And the things that God has called her to in the first instance, you know, the older, older women, she's younger women to be domestic and to be workers at home and to, you know,

I think you can, you can, you can give up on all that. And, you know, it may be that you do some good in the world, but it might be that if you understand how much good you could have done the other way, you could accomplish a lot more, even than you thought, you know?

Right. I think that there's this lie that a lot of women are being told. And it's like the way to change the world is like, by being some big influencer out there and whatever they're doing, or being some conference speaker person, you know, being, you know, always on the road, always traveling, always, you know, always doing all this stuff, you know, in order to affect everything.

And, you know, they end up losing their homes, losing their family, having other people raise their kids, you know, so like for them, it is practical.

I mean, for them, it's like, hey, just devote yourself. Do you know how much influence you could have to change the world by raising the people that God's given you to raise, you know?

Right. Yeah. And, you know, and I think that's one of the things that is lost in this kind of discussion is that, you know, in a lot of ways, my wife has more influence on our family than me.

Like you talk about like influence, like I have to work a job that I'm gone, you know, eight hours a day.

And she has like an ability to, I mean, obviously I play an important role in all that, but I don't have the time she has, right?

I don't, you know, and she's right. Like the women, you know, they make the next generation and they're raising the next generation.

It's like it's either them or they're handing them off to some daycare who's going to put on a Halloween mask and freak them out kind of thing.

If you saw that. Yeah, I did see that one. Yeah, I mean, but you, you're raising the next generation and it's like, if you just think about the awesome responsibility that that actually is, you know,

I was saying that like it's all on their shoulders. I'm just saying they have more time, you know, and you think about like if every woman devoted themselves to that, they just changed the world together.

But the lie is to say you have to do it yourself. And it's like, no, I mean, you, you want to change the world ladies, you know, you want to make it less, you know, patriarchal and whatever, raise your kids.

I mean, I don't think you should make it less patriarchal, but you know what I'm saying? You want to fix all these problems out there.

It's like you have ability to raise the next generation. Like, and if you all band together and quit, you know, giving your kids over to psychopaths, we're going to brainwash them and, you know, do horrible things to them and teach them how to be a pagan and think like a pagan.

You could, you could change the world, you know? And so, I mean, I think that's part of what is practical about it is if you just accept the way

God's designed, like you think that the good is different than what it is and you don't realize what you could do, you know?

Right. Yeah. I mean, obviously having sway over the next generation is a huge thing.

That's why people are going after the public education system right now and trying to put their ideology into it.

Right. And that's always been the tactic, right? With any sort of regime is to go after the kids.

Well, yeah. I mean, I think what's funny about it, just like psychologically thinking about it, like in terms of the way we're oriented,

I think most men would look at the stay at home stuff and say, yeah, you know what?

Like, it'd be nice to not have to go to work every day. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like emasculating to think of yourself as being a homemaker or whatever.

I mean, because it's not manly, but then like the thing is, it's like, if you think about it like in that way, it's like, yeah,

I mean, having to go to work every day like that, like me looking at it from the outside, it's like, that's a lot easier.

Like you don't have to deal with like some kind of crazy boss or, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to deal with all this stuff.

You know, you don't have to bear the weight of provision for a family. You know, you don't have to, you don't have to do any of that.

You get to reap the benefits of all that and a nice air conditioned home with all the modern conveniences that there are.

You know, so like part of like what sin does is it makes you, um, the point there is just to say that part of what sin does is it's always about like the desire for what you can't have.

Right. Right. So if you're discontent, you know, you're going to look to the other side and romanticize that and then make your, you know, whatever you're in the big problem.

And so like women can do that with men where they look at men and say, man, I wish it would be so wonderful to get out of the house and not be with here with kids all day long.

And, you know, a man can say, Hey, well, yeah, it'd be so wonderful to not have to bear the weight of all the responsibility of providing for the sin.

Right. And, but then like when you accept the way that you're made and the roles that God has designed you to do, you fight those things.

That's where the real fulfillment actually is. And it's not going to be found in looking to the other role, glamorizing, romanticizing the other role and turning yours into the worst possible thing imaginable.

Right. Right. Yeah. It's going to be founding a contentment is not based on your circumstances. And so looking at looking at that,

I mean, the way forward is not to go that route basically. Right. Yeah. And then I guess kind of going back to what you were talking about earlier in the episode, in terms of practical, you know, sort of biblical advice, there is this when it, you know, for someone who lives in Italy, right.

And as a Christian, there might be a legitimate question about who do I vote for in this kind of situation?

And then, you know, someone needs to be able to come along and say, Hey, there are times where, you know, you do need to vote for someone who, you know, yes, it might be shameful.

It might not be ideal, right. It might mean that someone is neglecting an individual is neglecting their family and their household, even though God has commanded her, you know, to take care of those things as her primary responsibility or one of her primary responsibilities.

But when you pit that against something much, much, much worse in terms of the evil that has the potential to take place, you know, it's probably better for the

Christian to say, Hey, there's a lot wrong here. I don't support this. This is not I don't support this, you know, in totality.

This is not the ideal scenario, but I would much rather have the woman who's pushing for, you know, family values, for example, as opposed to the man who wants to let us murder more babies, right?

Yeah. I mean, if you have a, you know, a Deborah or something and you say, Hey, I want the

Deborah over the Hitler, I guess, you know, those are my two choices. I mean, but I mean, a lot of people look at Deborah as if that's just like divine sanction for the thing.

It's like, no, I mean, this is a story that's set in the context of a book that says there's no king in Israel.

Everyone does what's right in their own eyes. That is the continual refrain. You don't want to, which is amazing because like with Deborah, you look at Deborah as if it's like, she's like the one exception to that.

Right? It's like, no, the continual refrain is there's no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in their own eyes.

I'm sure that you don't think that the right response when, you know, a crowd of rapist rapes your prostitute to cut her up in 12 pieces and send her to 12.

Yeah, that's not exactly on my short list of responses. I don't think that you think that like the appropriate moral response, if like men are lacking, like you have a tribe of men who are lacking a wife is to get them to go and, you know, go to a village full of women who are dancing and grab, you know, grab them, grab them and run off with them or something like that.

Right. I don't think that you want to model anything, hardly anything you you're doing after Samson.

Right. Right. Like, you know, Gideon was a wimp and a coward. Right. So I think this is a book that's meant to be upside down.

Like everything that's happening here is upside down. And even in the story of Deborah, you have the Deborah's name is honeybee and Barack's name is lightning.

You know, and so then you have like Barack, who's lightning or Barak, who is lightning, basically unwilling to go to battle unless honeybee is there with him.

You know, you talk about how emasculating that is. And she says, fine, I'll go with you. But the glory won't go to you. It'll go to go to a woman.

Right. And so jail with the tent peg. Like this is not like this is not a story of like, this is an upside down story to say that, you know, sometimes like when like you have awful options, you know, you might pick between as a ruler, you might, you know,

God might use a woman to accomplish something that should be done with a man to the shame of all the men present in order to as an act of judgment upon them.

And so, like, I'm fine with viewing it as an act of judgment on all the men to vote for this woman.

But just say that's what you're doing. You know, yeah, don't don't say don't don't package it like to say that.

Okay. What you're doing there is just to say, like, like men and women are fundamentally the same and equally equipped for this task.

And like, this is a victory for women's rights to vote for this lady. It's like, no, this is a this is

God shaming all the men here. And I'm going to I'm going to let him do what he's doing and shame everyone.

And I'm going to rub their nose in the fact that they're being shamed here, you know. Yeah. And say, yeah, this is

God's judgment upon you, wimps, you know, and that's what my vote means. I am approving of the fact that God has basically, you know, identified all you as a bunch of coward, spineless cowards, you know, and he's going to use a woman to help maybe put you point you in the right direction as an act of judgment upon you.

And anyone who voted for her in that way and was willing to say that kind of thing. I'm for it. I wonder if they put that on the sticker, you know, how they make the little

I voted sticker. I wonder if they make one that's like, my vote shamed all the conservative men who are too spineless to stand up and say something.

Yeah, that's that's what we need to do. But, OK, well,

I think that's a good place for us to end here. You know, ultimately, I think it's like you said, right?

This is a shameful thing, but then there are certain times where, you know, when you have to pick when you have to when you have to pick the non -ideal situation versus the totally immoral and wicked situation.

The choice can be pretty clear, I think, at that point, and it's unfortunate that it has to be that way.

But then I think, yeah, I think Christians should feel a sort of freedom to say, hey,

I'm going to vote for what I think will protect the most people in this way and will more closely align with what the

Bible says. But then there does need to be an aspect from the Christian that says like something's still not right here, though, when when

I'm voting in that conservative woman who is pushing for like family values and whatnot, there's still something.

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's necessarily like you need to vote for her. I mean, I think if you have the freedom to I think there's a freedom there.

You know, I wouldn't say it'd be sinful to not. You may just I mean, there may be things about her that are troubling.

I mean, I think from what I know in that situation, it sounds like. Overwhelmingly, the problems are on the other side.

Right. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's more what

I meant to say. You have a freedom to vote for that person. You don't have to feel like you've sinned in some way for voting, voting for a woman.

But then there does need to be a sort of like it's a bittersweet thing. Right. It's not it's not all great and wonderful.

It's not the ideal scenario. And I do. I like what you said as well about women and how they really do have they

I mean, they really do, in a certain sense, have a kind of control over what the next generation looks like in a certain way because of the amount of time that ideally they get with their children, especially if they're having a lot of children.

And so and I think that gets devalued a lot in our society, especially from the feminist camp.

They try and devalue the woman who stays at home and who raises her kids faithfully the way that God commands them to do.

And so so I don't want that to be lost in all of this conversation. I was glad you brought that up.

But with all that being said, you know, hopefully this has been something that's given given you guys listening a lot to think about and a lot to pray through and talk, talk about with your family, with your friends when it comes to these kind of, you know, more difficult situations in terms of like, hey, how do

I vote in this? How do I view the way my government is being led right now?

Those are those are important things to think through and have an under a biblical understanding of. And so our desire is to help equip you to be able to think through those things in a biblical way.

So we thank all you guys for listening to us and supporting us week in and week out. And we look forward to having you on the next one.

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