Session 2 - Q&A with Costi Hinn and Jim Osman

Kootenai Church

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00:00

All right so this Q &A is a little bit more of a get to know the get to know the guest speaker but Kosti did that in the first session there he gave you a lot of details so some of this is gonna be some follow -up questions to what he just covered in that session and some of it some stuff that you didn't even touch on.

00:18

Would you first question would you say that you were saved there at your study desk reading

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John 5 would you say that was your conversion experience there or were you saved at some other point or can you even pinpoint the time of your genuine salvation?

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Good question so for me I I use that particular moment as my conversion and the reason for that is because I actually repented of my sin and what

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I believed and then as well made a wholehearted commitment to serve the

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Lord preach the true gospel learn grow study all that so in a real way

01:00

I was my eyes were fully opened and I was very determined. Interesting for you to bring that up it's a great question because Justin I've often talked with Justin Peters Tony as well about it and Tony calls it my grace awakening moment he's like I the way you because I had preached before at the church and was doing student ministry stuff and even wanting and wanting to get away from the family and all of that he he has said before I think you were saved sometime before we won't know until glory but at some point your heart was regenerate you your mind had changed you wanted nothing you just hadn't been taught yet so the moment you started getting tools in front of you you were like this is what

01:44

I want I'm going all out if that's the case then you're talking about late summer the year you got married when you're making that decision having that crisis yeah probably you probably right in there is what you would say and then

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Justin similar kind of said brother I he said it one time like with his his word pictures is that brother you know like a sheep you just you're sitting there grazing and focused on yourself and then you kind of pick your head up my you know and then you're just back grazing again but you know and then that moment comes where you fully aware and you just you pick your happy you hear the master's voice through his word and that that's it you're following him forever and like all that and so he's like obviously something was happening to you there to even want that and I'm like alright so but for me personally the easiest way to describe it is through the series of events yeah and then that moment late

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April 2013 because at that point I never looked back again with confusion or or even doubts

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I had doubts if I wanted to be in ministry mainly because I felt like I wasn't qualified or I felt like I could never be like other guys that were faithful and I was thinking that it you know

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I'm it's too messy my my storyline is too too messed up yet did you have a fake conversion experience when you were younger six or seven you asked

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Jesus into your heart yeah probably probably my baptism at 12 just getting baptized and making my big profession of faith but I would have said

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I was always saved I grew up I was born saved is what I would say when someone's like how long you been saved or when did you get saved

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I got born saved yeah so did you have as a hymn did you have exposure early exposure to non prosperity

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Christianity like teachings did you ever hear John MacArthur preach Alistair Begg preach

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RC Sproul preach ever before your conversion no the first thing

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I ever the first church I ever heard anything preached that I could say that guy at that time would have been

03:55

Matt Chandler sermon at the village church in 2008

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I guess 7 yeah cuz oh 7080 809 my junior senior at DBU I had a friend who invited me to the village church and this guy gets up there and just talks about the

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Bible for 45 minutes like whatever okay like that was church okay cool and it was the village so looking back

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I'm like hey and it was sort of in a good era from Chandler it was just bringing it and they're at a grocery store or something converted grocery store and then

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I went back to Gateway it was like I'm going back cuz I like you know I want to hear Kerry Jobe every Sunday and Robert Morris preach yeah that was kind of the jam those of you who don't know

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Matt Chandler is something of a continuationist which means he believes in the continuation of the certain spiritual gifts like prophecy he wrote the foreword for Sam Storms book practicing the power where he argues that you should have modern -day prophets in the church but theologically in terms of salvation and soteriology

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Matt Chandler's where we would be at in terms of believing the reformed doctrines of the faith believing sovereign election etc it's just it's kind of that odd combination of continuationist as well as more soteriologically reformed yeah and on a

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Sunday he was just he would get up he was just getting up there and preaching the Bible it's kind of like when Piper remember the old like John Piper versus John MacArthur continuationist versus cessationist thing and one of the practical things was always

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I was always curious about this and thought yeah you know I know Piper's a continuationist but they all just sing hymns have brass bands preach the

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Bible and then go disciple people like where's the tongues in the pride if you got it why aren't you doing it this looks like a

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Baptist Church and so channel it was similar back then they just preached the Bible and went on with it and I that was the first exposure the other one was a woman in my

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I didn't there's so many details some of these are in the book a lot a lot of them are all of them are but for sake of time

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I couldn't keep going the first session but a woman came up to me at my dad's church right before we moved and slipped me a book and said here this you should read this and it was a book called

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Church Awakening by Chuck Swindoll and in that book like Swindoll is pretty he's pretty pretty orthodox pretty clear of course and he would be a cessationist very conservative in his approaches to things and in that book he's very gracious he's very soft and gentle with things but he says things about like certain teachers who do this and that and I remember reading that thing like ooh like this book is probably banned

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I can't no one can know I have it and I still have it my bookshelf to this day but that was an another one that I thought people just slip in me things that put cracks in the dam how close are you to your uncle

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Benny now back then let's start very very close yeah I was like the favored nephew and super tight and now

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I know he won't talk to me not at all no mom and dad mom and dad yeah mom and dad want to move to Arizona and be close to our church and be close to me and be around my dad and mom have moved away from pretty much all of the like they don't travel uncle

07:14

Benny they don't go near my mom it's really clear there's some real even the conversations about them wanting to be out in Arizona more and thinking about being more to where we are has to do with all sorts of things similar in the same vein along theology and want to get away from the influence life yeah and it was started years ago when we used to talk about tongues and prophecy and different things she was watching what we were going through and we had a little couple years where we were really estranged because true story

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I and this is part of my personality it sometimes works against me and so there's things even in the book about reaching others that I tell people to do this certain way because of my failures not because I'm super wise but I brought my parents to California in our little dingy apartment sitting on our secondhand furniture and pulled out my at that point no longer pink my own

08:10

MacArthur study Bible true story and I opened up to first Timothy chapter 3 and I read to my father verses 1 to 7 and said you are not qualified to be in ministry you are a wolf and uncle

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Benny's a wolf and you need to step down repent and before you think there's no hope

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I have the solution oh really I said yes

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I have very dear friends and they would love to help you if you would just repent and and learn and grow humble yourselves they will help you

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John MacArthur Justin Peters like these guys you just need to know the guys I know I'm telling you they teach the Bible they'll help you they don't want to they don't want to harm you they want to help but you need to step down you're wolves you need to repent and of course that was met with like not oh you don't say okay my mom was in that conversation so that got me it wasn't like oh see you later from Canada go to California now you know you ruined everything

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Christine but all right let's see at Thanksgiving I went all the way with it like I believed what the

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Bible said I read everything and took it dead serious still do black and white there it is okay so I should do this so I would call

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I went after every family member I called them when they started a couple of my sisters moved up to Bethel my brother -in -law they were serving up in Reading and then they went to Sacramento Jesus culture and I called them and I literally took the

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Bible seriously went after all of it and that got me cut off pretty good to where no one would talk to me and then over the years you know for parents they don't stay away from gang kids so I was like all right well but I wouldn't let them see the grand kids for a period of time as well and one of my conditions with my dad was maybe it seems insensitive or harsh but remember there's a difference between family caught up in following like Kenneth Copeland versus when your your parent or your loved one is an actual false teacher

10:14

Jude says that you should have mercy on them with fear hating even the garment stained by the flesh you want to keep some healthy distance you don't like hey come on over who knows what they're gonna say or like will you babysit my kids for a date night and they're like teaching them about tongues no way so with that I I definitely put distance as well and said you cannot you're not coming to my front door as long as you're teaching heresy and traveling with him so that was my dad with Uncle Benny so there was that level and then you know that's again we're talking anywhere from eight to ten years ago and then slowly but surely throughout the different eras of time when the book came out

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I called my parents said I love finding deception yes and then that one that one got us cut off fully to where Chris Vallotton who is a false teacher false prophet literally from Bethel was my sister's my youngest sister's mentor and they weren't allowed to talk to me or else they would have curses cancer like all the you know in calamity the big three

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C's if you go near someone it's like Scientology like with a suppressive person so that that was defining deception that did not help that one my uncle ended up calling my dad and saying like what tell your son to knock it off like enough is enough and then the

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Christianity Today article there was other things that kind of started popping up by the time we got to God greeting the prosperity gospel

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I had called my parent I told them I was coming out with a book on it I told them I would be respectful but I would not hold back and it was around that time that we actually started having more conversations so my dad got away from traveling without he quit stopped your dad read either of those books he's read the

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God greed my parents read God greed and that was painful you tell some honest honest stories in that how many of you read the book by the way okay two or three you tell some honest stories about your family your upbringing and the environment what that was like and reading that which

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I just finished this last week I thought did your family read that did your uncle Benny read that did they approve what you were writing in there because though you were straightforward and honest you were very gracious yeah there so I don't know if my uncle read it or not

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I have no idea do you think you read defining deception so that okay that one yes more family members dabbled in that one because it was the first one and that was

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Tony had come to me and said hey I'm tired of the Bethel stuff because one of who's a guy who has come back from a conference he went to our church he's like hey guys he said he could be the apostle of our church and yeah not here you're not and keep in mind like they were talking this is like 2015 2016 so clearly we're we're past the you know the era that we were moments church we were like masters plan for the church all that so he's like we're like where'd you learn that he's like I just got back from Reading which a

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Bethel conference like oh no and he's like you know all this stuff I'm like oh yeah my sisters are up there he's like oh here we go so we were dealing with all of it in -house then he said

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I'm gonna write a book you want to write it with me you don't have to if you do this though you're getting in way more trouble than I ever will because this would be a more public stand and I'm like let's go let's ride so we did and that one got read passed around the family and they were like how dare he and I went after all their heroes yeah with the

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Hall of Generals chapter so I went after the movement in that one more than a testimony and that was my plan

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I was like I don't remember a testimony book talk about myself I'd rather go after the theology then the book after because too many people were like what in the world you're a hymn how does that work

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I was like all right I'm gonna put it in a book and then please don't make me talk about it anymore except tonight obviously I had to yeah that's good so the

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God greed and the prosperity gospel book then you're have you had conversations with your parents about that yes so my parents are further away from where they were ever completely my dad still has some friends or will end up in a photo with someone or like somewhere and I'm kind of like these people are weirdos like why are you why are you even with them my mom a little more blunt and so each time

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I'm with them we have strong conversations good conversations healthy I'm honorable and respectful but they've been to our church they've sat in our church our people are kind to them and I've pre

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I didn't even plan this they were there for my Ephesians to we're going through the book of Ephesians you know 90 sermons later and I'm at I did not plan they were in town

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I said hey you guys gonna come to church always invite them and they're like yeah we will come tomorrow so great and they stay in a hotel somewhere locally and I said great and I didn't even realize it till I was halfway through the sermon that I was in Ephesians 220 so I had this whole section on Apostles and Prophets and the foundation and Christ the cornerstone

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I just let it fly and after I was like hey guys sorry I didn't mean to knock like you're nothing against you that's the verse we're in and they were like no it's great my dad's like I'm so proud of you it's good

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I love it he's like I listen to your stuff I follow and I keep up right look you we say we believe more of what you say than you ever would have thought

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I said all right does your uncle Benny and your dad still talk a little bit there was one conversation I don't know

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I mean you guys can record this it's fine but we are this live stream yeah hello let's say

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I don't go Benny hi one conversation that I had was after the last repentance and I am very eager to be as loud or louder if he were to truly repent for his true repentance than I've ever been over that the outlet than his false stuff and that last one was where he's like the

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Holy Spirit's sick and tired of it like he's really had enough and I know we can be cheeky me like oh really like now the

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Sovereign Spirit of God has had enough wow I'm glad he's had enough now apparently he hadn't had enough for the 40 years you've been doing this but all jokes aside

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I sent text called like wanted to talk to him I was like and I I called he didn't pick up so I sent him this big text message and I said if you're for real

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I will be at your front door and I will be louder for your true repentance than I've ever been against your false teaching

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I love you like just bleeding heart nothing it's like I asked my mom a day or two later it's like hey like are we like are we in like tell me when

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I get on a plane like let's go and my dad said in Arabic Shuaish way Shuaish way means like you take it like easy all right and I said what's going on and the sentiment from him was that you know he's scared to meet the

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Lord was like the verbatim quote and I said well yeah it would be too like just repent literally turn come on just go the other way and what we 've seen over the course of the last what five years maybe where there's been multiple little pop -up repentances is a fear of I think what he knows to be a coming judgment if he doesn't repent but also

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I think a second Corinthians 7 worldly sorrow a man I I really have made some mistakes man

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I really got quite the legacy here and what you're having now is some in that camp fight for his legacy so there's a book that just came out by a guy named

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Kent Maddox anybody heard of him before Kent Maddox so Kent Maddox was like one of my uncle's key guys he wrote a book it just came out don't buy it it'll only help his his ranking on Amazon but it's

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Benny Hinn and the impact he's had on my life or something like that and now it's starting where these guys say

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I know there's so many out there who criticize and some who are even close to him and you're like yeah I know hi me I get it but you know with this man the true anointing and when he and he's never fought back because that's what a real man of God does and so you have this odd because I don't fight back

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I'm noble and that has been the cadence it's a fear of the end a fight for the legacy never a repentance and even behind closed doors when

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I'll hear family say like hey he's different you really that's the famous line that I get and I'm not jaded

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I really wanted to be true but my wife and I were just in a conversation two weeks ago with a family member and I don't want to name them because we're having good conversations but this individual said cost my whole family calls me cost short nickname cost uncle

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Benny it's different so different it's like he's getting old he's thinking you're the end like he's just he's different it's not the same

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I think something's happened I'm just like awesome like when when are we meeting up like let's go let's do it and they're like no it's not like that I'm like well then what is it and they're always like you're so intense with all this just lighten up with him like it's people change and sometimes they don't need to like come out and you know have a big thing about it and I'm like yeah they do and they've been teaching falsely for so these are the things that happen behind the scenes and maybe

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I'm too black and white for some or it's too intense but in my mind if you've been a public figure teaching falsely and we're not talking like oh you had a little cult in your town so just go deal with them like best -selling books

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Thomas Nelson publishing like worldwide global famous like you can't you don't just go away to he's living in Florida now you don't just go like in your little retirement home on the beach and like lay low and then die and just do

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Facebook lives and some people are paying your bills when Paul got saved total 180

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Zacchaeus went crazy in repent it so it's a lot more like Judas then

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Peter and these others one other question about your family to move on from that you mentioned your sisters how many siblings do you have two two sisters older younger one older one younger and have you had conversations with them where they are in observing you and where you're at yeah we just had a lunch in Dallas when

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I was there and they were so they have been in Reading which with Bethel Sacramento with Jesus culture

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Charlotte with Furtick not kidding they were living they were in Fort Worth with Todd white my sister was his worship pastor and my brother -in -law was executive pastor and then now and then they were at Mercy culture which is a church in Fort Worth after they had a split with Todd and now they are moving to Florida for my uncle and they're gonna do some stuff with Jesus image for a little while and I'm like guys so they haven't even started to come out of that movement then well this is where it gets weird and complicated in our conversations one of my sisters said okay we've they unblocked me on and they all unblocked me on Instagram and social media

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I was like sweet like I'm I'm out of jail and and I said hey just so you guys know like we're you know sometimes

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I say things but like it's just truth so I love you guys and and one of my siblings said oh yeah there there's so much that you say and that we watch and listen to you we agree with you way more than you'd ever think truly and like we've been listening to Ali that Stucky now and we've been listening to this and I'm like okay so there is healthy conversation after that lunch but they had left

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Todd White's ministry and so there but they're still floating and so it's good heart training that's what we call it in our home

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Christine and I privately like this is great heart training stay soft stay loving stay hopeful because love hopes bears believes endures all these but yes sometimes it is like okay we're on our like 13th false teacher are you done yet come on guys like it's not you don't need to like go to grace community and and you know it but just why don't you just get out of all that but there's so much jadedness from that TBN world that unless the

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God of the universe puts their feet on solid ground and plugs them in somewhere there's solid teaching they float like almost like a lot of people from the

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Hillsong stuff you know the Hillsong documentary and all that stuff that's come out you have all these people that are just spinning and they've either left what they thought was the faith but really all they've left is an organization yeah a machine and so they were never really saved they were never really blood -bought in it you know with Christ really they just got spit out by something another jaded so that's what

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I think a lot of my family members have experienced and it's tough to watch but we keep praying and keep encouraging but yeah there's some weird stuff and interestingly enough on the way home from that trip

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I was in the airport and I ran into Todd Todd white and I had my son with me and I had him you get your leg lengthened yeah

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I did pull my shoe off but we had a real we had a real honest conversation right there in a little

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Hudson news store I was just trying to get a bottle of water and Titus my son stood like four feet away because I'm not like prosperity gospel superstitious anymore but I you know he needs to stand like four or five feet away so he stood over by the way just mind

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I didn't want him to hear everything and and I had a real if I if I had one opportunity if that's the last time

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I ever get to see Todd white in person and talk to him I I told him everything I could and would have and he cried and so cut love you and I was like I don't know if that's a good thing or just like a show but like it would it would have been it was something that like if someone was walking by and knew who we were and had a phone on them like it would be one of those like film that but that's how real it is for me like they're they're all lost and still alive yeah so like I got to tell him

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I first time I heard of your salvation Justin texted me and he said hey brother you need to you need to listen to this voicemail

24:41

I'm about to send you you do that better than I do so he forwarded me the voice message that you left him on his phone yeah his ministry phone and it was two or three minutes where you introduced who you were what your background was that you got soundly saved yeah and I immediately called

24:58

Justin and I said Justin what do you think of that and he said go no he said it sounds legit but I'm gonna call him up and I'm gonna ask him some serious questions because if this is true then

25:15

I want to hear this story oh yeah I never forget that day how much speaking and preaching moving off the family relations for a little bit how much speaking and preaching do you do outside your local church ministry yeah maybe like six to seven things a year

25:33

I'll do okay how many kids do you have five get names Titus ages to as well

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Titus so I'll give you the ages based on the birthdays coming up in like two months so that way so Titus is nine in August grace will be seven in August Timothy just turned five in May he's made a fourth so made the fourth be with you he's a little

25:55

Star Wars kid Ruth is three she just turned three on April 1st and Lydia Noel is seven months old yeah she's almost almost eight months old and your homeschooling kids public school private school they're currently in a local

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Christian school because we somehow we don't make enough we somehow got in we don't

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I don't make enough money to have to pay so we have free tuition on the pastor's discount and then

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Arizona is really cool you already live in a great place so none of you need to move but if if we're in like Portland I would tell people hey

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Arizona has this program where they give they have an ESA program they basically give parents $7 ,000 a year per kid for schooling you can homeschool or go to a private school so I have a really good friend he's the superintendent of a

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Christian school it's like the last really awesome Chris I speak there regularly we have church members who are teachers so it goes there and then probably start homeschooling here in the next few years mainly because I I like him with us we've been having a blast and love the discipleship element and I would have brought one of them with me but on trips like this when it's all prosperity gospel and it's all this topic he's too literal and so it tends to he'll just he it's he's already heard it once and so I'm like you stay home he was he told me dad

27:27

I I sat through six hours of preaching the last one under Pastor Charles to HB Charles Pastor Tom Pennington like I can handle it

27:34

I'm like it's not that I think I'm just gonna go I got to say a lot of things that you've already heard and I don't need you don't need to sit there on this one he's like all right

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I'm like okay so there we're all in together when one of your children has an illness yeah

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Timothy was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer at three months old and is doing really great and that was an interesting family dynamic when we told them all and genuinely one of my it was my brother -in -law he asked so honest question

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I said fire away he said is there not even one small part of you that thinks like it's because of stuff you've said it was like no he's a guard you're that confident

28:16

I said absolutely like beyond so he was born or diagnosed with that you said it was your first kid third

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Timothy that happened shortly after you got saved a couple of years after you got saved right yet so Timothy was born in 2018 okay so Titus was 2014 grace 2016 they're all two years apart

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Timothy 2018 so we had kind of crossed through like defining deception had come out in 2017 and I was regularly like it had been probably three what is that three or four years at that point of discipleship in seminary was a pastor again or the family life pastor at our church serving like our families and children ministry and started to be asked to speak on these issues a bit

29:04

Justin they interviewed me stuff like that and so based on that when his the

29:10

God green prosperity gospel book wasn't out till 2019 okay so when Timothy was born and he got diagnosed three months in so that summer they they were really fresh off of like a year ago you released the finding deception and now this like you're or you wrote it and we've known it's coming like you're this is you're touching the

29:32

Lord's anointed so how does that play theologically with your family members particularly your mom and dad yeah in the midst of that you're got to be having conversations

29:41

I guess we're coming back to the family issue again but you gotta be having conversations with your mom and dad about look dad if you had the ability to heal or if uncle

29:49

Benny has the ability to heal he could he could heal like Jesus heals and just say the word he doesn't have to be present you can just say the word and command and it be done so the fact that I have a child that is ill and been diagnosed with a rare form of cancer and he's not being healed that's huge theological issue or at least a hurdle for them

30:11

I would think was it at all no and the reason is this I already knew their tactics so I went with a more truth driven rather than a challenge approach and here's what

30:21

I mean by that there's a place for what you just said kovat was one of them like okay faith healers like here's your chance that would be in my opinion because it's so wide scale you're just like hello and it almost is a time to in a sanctified way mock their mock their

30:37

Elijah on our caramel totally yep with this I went more of a hey you know he's been diagnosed with a rare form of cancer and we trust the

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Lord and and in that moment one of my my dad in particular he kind of rose up there at our table

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Christine I'm there we're alone with them and he said no no cancer won't touch this house in Jesus name and it was my wife who is just not like this vocally ever even if she says it after when they're gone she like hit the table godly but just like she said no no

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I was like oh here we go she said cancer has touched this home and she's like crying her little fist you know on the table cancer has touched this home and we trust the

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Lord and he gives and he takes away and she goes on this little like sermonette on the sovereignty of God and she says and we will trust her and I don't want my son to die but even if he does

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God is still good and she's just like going off and so it it was more of a

31:44

God is sovereign we trust him you're you're little in Jesus name cancer won't touch this house isn't working and never will it has touched this home too late and here's our theology on this so that route became a very interesting checkpoint now here's what they would have done and this is applicable to where he's at now

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Timothy just crossed through one of his important and really important appointments to be five years old they wanted five year old birthday with no major incidents and he hasn't and so but what my family members will do if let's say he's he older just never comes back if you leave it to those arguments they'll say either well

32:30

God why why would we heal you the Lord you've touched the Lord's anointed even we can't stop that so there's answer one so you go

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I'm not gonna challenge that to there's the well we chose to pray for you and have mercy on you and not the

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Lord gives us the choice sometimes to allow him to curse or to bless and because we love you we've said bless and so we're not gonna fight you and now they look noble so it's a real twisted sick game of if he's not healed it's because we have said and you've touched the

33:09

Lord's anointed if he if it does go well it's because we've decided to stay silent while you are on whatever crusade you're on against us we have taken the high road we will bless you and we love you and so whatever it is it's the sickest

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PR twist ever but you don't play I don't play to those cards

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I just go theology theology theology God's sovereign he's good and so when it all goes well they can claim whatever they claim but in the end it's like no

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God God's in charge so that's been helpful for some of these conversations I think

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I do think they were waiting for everything to implode I don't say this arrogantly at all there's no what is boasting we have nothing that the

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Lord isn't given they were waiting for my son to get worse our marriage to fall apart my life to start you know falling apart and us to get sick and everything to go bad and when the

34:06

Lord you go through trials still but when the Lord doesn't kill my son for now we

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Lord willing we're all who knows what tomorrow holds and we're just keep preaching the

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Bible and everything's kind of simple that my mom called it recently stability she said there's just this stability with you guys and I'm like mom it's because of sound doctrine that's what it is yeah

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I know it's just and you know when my siblings move around to visit like a dozen false teachers and keep deciding

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Oh God's moving us here now I think just like MacArthur others have said truth and time go hand in hand you just let and I pray that with the

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Lord I say Lord make us real like I want to be real saved real pastor a real church

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I don't just let us be let us be faithful don't let us ever wander from your your word so with that my hope is over the years that if we just serve the

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Lord that he would he would let that be a witness to some of my family members okay are you now convinced that your stuff doesn't work mm -hmm

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I'll tell you what does and I don't want to make you look bad I just want you to know the

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Lord so if that makes sense yeah it's a good approach the guy that did the first session went long so we're gonna have to speed this up a bit so rapid -fire answer this you go down the family rabbit hole and it's a mess yeah what are your hobbies and non ministry interests other than hockey and baseball yeah you took away the two two big ones

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I love to hunt I like the outdoors going hunting this fall to Wyoming with my boy and then

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I like to go on family walks I love to hang out with my wife and I like I'm pretty rough

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I like to I have a men's Bible study we don't do it often but we put out mats we do jiu -jitsu

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I like to fight a little my boys and I wrestle just like playing sports and I like reading to kind of a

36:11

Bible nerd okay after John MacArthur's commentary on John and after church awakening by Chuck Swindoll what are five books that have radically influenced and shaped you since your epiphany after MacArthur's what

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John 5 commentary his commentary on yes so that's obviously an influential so five others that knows to that have that have radically shaped all right master's plan for the church and I'm not

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I won't sorry it's like John MacArthur GTY bookstore promo ad yeah it's not master's plan for the church

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I can't say enough about it it's just one of those ecclesiology books that that knock your socks off and you go why are we doing why would we not do church biblically another one was

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J Max Stiles evangelism it's just a little red book and I read that and it it gave me a good understanding of evangelism and how

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I should be and then there was another one at that time back then it was a little blue book by Mark Dever called discipling and it was all about how you should be in the life of your people you should be making disciples in the local church you should be meeting with people and I was like that's what

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I should be doing and so to make disciples was super helpful that'd be three in particular that impacted

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I could list ten more but those three in particular were really helpful for how to do church and how to understand but I really did devour

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I did my own work I went to seminary and I wasn't like John MacArthur says it I agree but reading like I read pastoral ministry from the faculty at masters and MacArthur's names on it but there's other guys are and that book showed me what it means

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I strock or Strouch Alexander Strouch's book on biblical eldership

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I was like wow plurality okay that'll keep the train on the track so think books I read a ton of biblical church leadership books because I desperately we were talking earlier about the importance of church leadership

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I desperately wanted to know how leadership is supposed to be so that I could try to be that and then just get to serve have you ever gone back and reconnected with the coach oh all the time yeah

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I just narrated the video for DB use Road to Omaha Oh trick trailer they did the script but I nine yeah co -chiefs awesome you mentioned praying for celebrities athletes during your family vacations can you give us some names that maybe you haven't mentioned in the book

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I didn't mention today yeah so I mentioned Darryl strawberry

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Carl Everett oh you all know well Evander Holyfield everybody knows that story if you don't it was on YouTube you got healed of a heart condition they went when a fight that's like the greatest not good promo ever for the ministry at that time

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I made it more made it more famous T and Tamara the the owner it was the the family and tell you this here you know the the family that was going through a lot that ended up getting well you know the

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Illich family they own the Red Wings and the Tigers and Little Caesars it was there there they got in our orbit so I ended up at the

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World Series really good seats in 2006 games one and two and the Cardinals played the

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Tigers so that whole era was just interesting the amount of wealth and and you know what it is it's not it's not as though they all bought into my uncle per se but they were front row with their hands up some of them were but rich really really rich people that aren't saved who get sick or have kids that are sick or are going through tough times they just want their great life back and the prosperity gospel sells you the

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American dream so they want that they don't want to if Jesus can give them that cool give me give me

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Jesus as a means to my end so that was the the heart behind it who doesn't want to have a

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Hall of Fame career be super rich and have your kids not be sick all of them so they look to these kind of gurus for that how did your family your immediate family your mom your dad you guys become rich was it because of your uncle

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Benny's ministry and your request writing the coattails of that or did you did your dad have his own little prosperity healing get going on on the side yes so before we traveled with uncle

40:56

Benny my dad had a church his own crusades he was on TV in Canada locally and across the nation on it was called vision

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TV was the title of channel the network and his program was called life in the spirit with Henry him my dad had a

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TV program like they were he copied basically what my uncle was doing in Florida and then in my teenage years big money with traveling local

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Benny and that's what pulled from our local church like if you looked at what

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Vancouver Christian Center was the name of it what it became it was very bleak it ended up being very small it dwindled down and the reason was that the lure of traveling with my uncle

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I mean you could make six figures on one trip just come back so do that again and again and the money we had the amount of like the cars and the you just that's basically on salary with your uncle

41:57

Benny as part of that ministry yeah you paid paid per trip like they would pay per trip and big like big like per day amounts per trip even a travel day like massive massive amounts big money and and then to like you you raise money you take offerings that are big like some of the characters that were around Steve Muncy was this guy from Chicago he's got the blonde hair and looked like he had a lot of plastic surgery seriously looks like he said way too much

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Botox honestly and so that's how you know him you're like there's Steve Muncy and he's a money he's a money man he raises big money he's the guy yelling on TBN like go to your phones right now go to your phones like God's gonna bless you and you're just like poor people although I know they raise up teachers in accordance with their own desires yeah so there's that and my dad had a way about him with with fundraising too and kind of being that guy so you can get paid pretty good raising money as well in your book you talk tell the story of your uncle

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George dying of cancer yeah my mom said you kind of already addressed this

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I guess with your son on a more personal level about how they deal with that theologically was there a similar crisis or dealing with your uncle

43:20

George dying of cancer theologically did they wrestle through that and blame him for lack of faith yeah he was blamed for not attending there were some weird weird things that described his death or he decided described his cancer and stroke and some of the whole things he was dealing with there was a whole conglomerate of things one of them was he had spoken against my dad or the ministry and got around the wrong people so he was you don't allow negative voices in your life either so it's not enough that you don't say anything against them but when you allow others in your life your living room your friendship circles who speak against a man of God the same things that come upon them will come upon you so he had gotten around some people that have left our church some other family members on my mom's side who weren't too thrilled with my dad and some of the and you know they were all they were all in the circle theologically like they would have been just as happy at an assembly of God Church that had integrity with the way they dealt with finances and but at that time he was he was pushing against some things you think he was a believer yeah

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I do think that I think he was and I think some others were just general normal believe the gospel types it's not that they were he was reformed or anything like no just just charismatic but what

44:50

Justin would call clear -thinking charismatic in terms of he just saw some of the issues and thought this isn't quite right yeah and that that's an important distinction there's a lot of people that have reached out

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I've talked to before and friends kind people sweet people who are in the assemblies of God organization denomination or in some of these circles who say you know we don't we don't we're not gonna see eye to eye on tongues and on some of these things

45:13

Kosti but man your uncle's a heretic like yep and we agree with you on everything and Bethel's a problem and we want nothing to do with them but they're clear -thinking charismatics is a great way to put it there's a lot of folks like that and they just stay quiet they tend to stay quiet because they don't want trouble they say something and then their own kind start yelling at them and they're just like I that in their local autonomous church they operate that way and I think some of these folks were that for sure and others were just following a man last question how long did it take you after you came out of that movement from when you got saved to get over the fear if you had one that you're speaking out against your uncle and you're not being under the anointing would cause you curses and calamities how long did it take for you to get over that superstition almost

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I don't remember like not long I don't remember having a lot of it it was gun blazing probably too much did you have that fear when you left

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Vancouver to go to California people are that church plant oh yeah so a few times I wondered like we were broke like food stamps broke and mom and dad weren't sending you a check every month to help sustain you no and we had gotten rid of it so I was more superstitious here's here's one for you maybe this is true

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I was getting rid of stuff because I didn't want it in our house because I I felt like remember the sin of Aiken and Joshua 7 there was a band he kept some stuff remember that yeah and Joshua's mad because the little hooligans from AI do him in and he's like you just took down Jericho because we marched around and blew trumpets and now this little bit

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Attila the Hun comes over and takes us out like what and God goes get up like why are you on your face he tells

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Joshua rise up and says you're you've been disobedient so in the same way

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I was worried that like Louis Vuitton purses in the closet my Breitling nice shoes stuff

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I had from the prosper I'm like get it out of the house anything under the band get it out you know or the

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Lord won't bless us in the truth now so that would have been more my superstition which we did get rid of everything

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I've had some people now say like you should have kept the hammer a good off -road car yeah or like though but we got rid of everything like there were some things that it just I just gave to unbelievers at a work event like yeah like things that were worth thousands of dollars and I didn't know what to do with it all and so something so that sold and money money was given to the church and I was like this donation made in the name of Benny and stuff like that was that was what

48:19

I was more afraid of I really did when that moment the

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John 5 moment happened Tony had to had to yank the leash he had to rein me in I needed to be discipled to be the mathetes the learners the pupils like that the guy that just just be quiet and be taught because I wanted to just you know when you know something and you're in it and then people defend it you're like you have no like there's stories

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I don't even tell things like I won't say because it doesn't edify that I pray the

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Lord will it'll either come out or there's like lifestyle things and things that would have been too much tabloid fare like the

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Bible says things not not even fit to be spoken of there so for me it was the

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Lord opened my eyes I knew that I was on his side and I was saved so I had no fear so that like we got death threats and phone calls and there's different times where I slept in the front of our apartment with a shotgun and was like you know

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I might have to defend my house tonight if they come try to kill us but so that that fear quote like I'm someone may show up to church and you know come after me but never never if I say things our homes gonna get hit

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I was thinking we're on the side of the truth and I believe

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God's Word and I know we're actually saved even if we die we're in God's will yes sovereignty told sovereignty absolutely all right that's it for my questions tonight so I will close in prayer when

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I'm done we'll be dismissed you're free to leave your books and stuff here and your table if you'd like just no valuables you can bring the cards up and put them anywhere on this middle table here and we'll do that at the second

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Q &A session so let's bow in prayer father we're thankful for what we have heard here tonight we are reminded again of your sovereign grace your goodness you are sovereign in our salvation and that you have appointed all the things that you bring into the lives of your people for our sanctification our progression and holiness and ultimately for your glory and for our good so we thank you for our brother

50:41

Kosti that you have brought him out of that darkness and into the kingdom of light your dear son and we would pray that his ministry and his faithfulness to the truth we continue to be a testimony to his parents his siblings his family and his uncle