Macro-Cosm Scholarship

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James White And good morning. Good afternoon.

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That's called a microphone. That's called putting it on. There you go Hey multitasking is your job.

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If you can't handle it, we'll get Matt in there We're sure that he could handle it just fine and continue to play video games at the same time

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He's taking control so anyway 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is a toll -free phone number and There are a number of folks who have a direct personal invitation from me to be calling that number today

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There is an attorney by the name of mr. Hoffer. There is a gentleman who posts

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At the Catholic answers forums by name of guardian both have made public false statements concerning me

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I've challenged them to do the only honest thing the only thing that I think a person with moral integrity can do and that is to to sort of back up their their assertions and to do so with a live audience since that's what the dividing line is all about 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 however

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Given that I've been doing this few years I have lots of other stuff queued up ready to go because I Honestly don't think we're gonna be spending a whole lot of time this morning listening to the documentation of all of the

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Many many examples I guess every book. I've written every debate. I've done is just filled with examples of how ugly stupid.

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I am dishonest How I constantly misrepresent my opponents and for some reason my opponents during the debate?

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Aren't able to demonstrate these things for some very odd reason But but these folks are after the debate is over they are able to make these accusations but for some reason

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Then when when I see these accusations and give them the opportunity on my own program to call in and to demonstrate these things

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It gets it gets really really quiet and in fact we're gonna make a big noise here mr..

02:58

Pierce How does that sound There we go is that working

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Let's hear what we'll uh what we'll test the the connection here

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That's what you hear when When when you invite these folks who are are so brave you don't hear anything nothing nothing there, huh?

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When they're so brave behind a keyboard, but when it comes to the real thing well that happened now. It's it's funny now that They're the way they get around it now say well you hung up on Crimson Catholic.

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Yeah after almost 15 minutes on the air I Wonder how many minutes I would get on their programs

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Especially if I was acting the way that that man did I wouldn't get four minutes.

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I wouldn't get three minutes I'd be gone so fast wouldn't be happy it wouldn't be funny But actually if I was behaving like that they might leave me on just because it'd be so shocked that you know that hey we

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Can use this in the future and that way we can dodge all the issues that you actually bring up which seems to be the primary function of Many apologists out there, so we will we will keep those an eye a close eye on those phone lines

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Ritual testimony once while make sure that that they're there they're working that we haven't had a disconnection from the entire

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Internet and phone systems and We'll see what what happens 8 7 7

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I'll repeat this slowly for those of you outside real Linda 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 4 1 yes

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Anyway, that is that is the phone number, and it's and nothing. It's still working though, okay? All right, well, we'll keep checking that every once in a while during the program

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We'll make sure that's there. We I did hear someone did pick up a telephone and really shouldn't have done it a

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Couple days ago, I think fellow by name of tartan army Who was born in Scotland and lives in Australia, which means he must have one of the

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If anybody heard his accent, I'm sure that they would they would go wow that's a real odd mixture

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Scottish and Australian but and they would say that it's still better than mine, but He directed me to a phone call to Steve Gregg's program now some of you will remember

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Steve Gregg back in May I believe it was I was listening to Steve's nine part

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Series on Calvinism and by the way if and if anyone gives a link to this for Steve to listen to this

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I'm gonna be playing a portion of his program here in a moment What I did when

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I was on the cruise that I was on the the speaking for Corridge ministries Out in Hawaii a few weeks ago and RC scroll was on the cruise and was speaking as well

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I did a presentation on John chapter 6 And so what I did is I I snuck into my presentation some audio files

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It's so wonderful to have access to the Internet. That was the one thing about this cruise every port

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We were at I had full digital capacity of ever having to pay the billions of dollars you have to pay the ship to get on the

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Internet and So I inserted a number of Steve Gregg clips

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Into my presentation John 6 knowing that dr. Sproul would be listening to these

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Presentations and so I started off with the clip where In fact, I wonder if it's still in My my synchronization folder here.

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That's not how I got it. Anyways, is it? No, that's not how I got it I started off with a clip I could probably pull it up if I wanted to look around for it here

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But it was where Steve Gregg is talking about. I am just so glad that RC Sproul is your poster boy

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He's your because he's so irrational and he sticks his foot in his mouth over and over again and I'm playing this stuff and I just sort of glance over and our

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C's just grinning from ear to ear and sort of Chuckling because he doesn't he doesn't really get on the Internet. He didn't you know know about this kind of Statement by by mr.

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Gregg, but then I played Steve Gregg's attempted explanations of both John 637 and John 644 and Demonstrate where they they are eschatical in nature and do not fit the context of the scriptures and And put that into the end of the presentation and the folks found that to be very useful to do that so anyway

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There was a phone call That I was pointed to just recently sometime in the past two weeks or so, maybe less where a caller called into mr.

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Gregg's program and He he answered a Question concerning whether we're going to be doing a debate or not and That was interesting.

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I'll play that and then there was a Caller I guess by a name of Rick who called in and I Don't even know how to begin to describe this particular

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This particular phone call let me just play you the last section First very last things he said first and then we get a chance to go back to the beginning

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You'll see why this is this is relevant. This is Steve. Gregg has just asked him. So Do you you know is this really what you want to call about was the questions?

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He had about me and about things like that. Here's here's what I think the guy's name was Rick Here's what what

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Rick had to say? Yeah, pretty much. I was going to bring up the actually

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I was going to bring up Roman Catholicism But then when I mentioned you I heard you mentioned James R White and I don't get to listen to your show very often

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So I wasn't aware of the debate, but I had read a couple of his books and to me

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I think it's kind of interesting that he debates Roman Catholics or writes books about solo scriptura and things of that nature that that goes against their theology

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And I'm seeing these two groups fighting against each other and I have a little bit of a hard time when

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Those that are supposed to be Christians I guess I'm a little more dogmatic in my thinking than the way you've explained things so far

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You know pointing at these two groups and saying well, they're representing the debates it within Christianity and Somehow there's going to be a legitimate answer coming out of these particular debates when

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I look at them And I'm very suspicious that we might not get anything out of the debates between the

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Calvinists and the Roman Catholics It's going to generate any concrete answer that we can hang our hat on That we need to go back to the scriptures and find.

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Well, maybe they're both wrong Well, that's the court. My position would be like yours. I believe Roman Catholicism is mistaken

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I believe that Calvinism is mistaken and I I Although I haven't heard all of James White's debates on other subjects

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I would say that probably on most of the subjects that he debates about I would be on his side, you know

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I'd certainly agree with him against You know the doctrines of Roman Catholicism, for example

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I I don't know whether he believes a Roman Catholic to be saved or not and Depending on his view on that I might have a difference of opinion from him

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But but as far as his view of the Catholic doctrines, I'm sure he and I'd be on the same page Now what

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I found interesting there a number of things first of all, he says he's read everything that I've written

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He's read a number of my books and listened to debates and yet when we get the chance to listen

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To what he says Calvinist believe you're honestly, you're not even you're gonna find

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Dave Hunt and George Bryson to have a significantly more solid understanding more accurate understanding and the amazing thing is poor

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Steve Gregg has to sit there and Constantly correct the guy and say well, I don't think they would say that and in fact

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They'd put it this way and I had to appreciate the at least took the time to go Well, I don't think that's really a valid criticism

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Because I don't that's really not what they believe and and so on and so forth. So here's someone says hey,

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I've read this stuff and Yet you just wonder. Well, what did you read? What did you hear?

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How is it that what I actually believe? Could be so completely lost I have absolutely no idea but we will get to that in a moment because I am so thankful and so happy to announce that That Guardian has called into the program today just give you a little background here for those of you who are

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Not really up on what's what's been going on Last week a someone by the name

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I believe there It was not Guardian who started the the thread

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But there was a thread that was started on the Catholic answers forums and ever since Catholic answers forums opened up.

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I Wonder honestly if there's ever been a period of time when there was not a thread that was open

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Somewhere in the forums that had my name in it And various is for various and sundry reasons and it's you know

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Sometimes I'll somebody will send me a link and say hey Do you see what someone said here and and in this case my

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Google search engine? I've got a little widget that does blog searches for some reason. It thinks the Catholic answers forums are a blog and Searches the the blogs and So this this thread started up and Phil Provoznik, of course jumped in and I took the time later on to actually

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Work through some of what Phil had to say and demonstrate basically the same things. I've been demonstrating to Phil Provoznik since well 94 95 96 somewhere around there for a very very very long time even back when he was sending me

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Videotapes of clips of Pete Ruckman and Gail Ripplinger and Monty Python all put together

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Yeah, I go back a long way with old old Phil. He was young kid back then now.

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He's just a middle -aged kid and That's how I go to the Phil. But anyway one of the one of the comments that came from from Guardian concerning my viewpoints and things like that And this is what it read.

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It says I don't know why you you all give old Jimbo white the time of day I own and have read all of White's books regarding Catholicism and think they lack scholarship at best and honesty at worst

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In fact, I've found so many things misconstrued not just with his books with what he says in debates and on his blog

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I simply dismiss him now a lot of times he does make honest arguments, but they are laughable at best

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Usually he's the boy that cried wolf in my opinion And so I responded to that and said well, here's an opportunity

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My audience is listening and So we have an opportunity to listen to what

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Guardian has to say calling from st. Louis. Hi Guardian. Hello How are you doing?

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I'm doing pretty good. You're in the st. Louis area. I'll be out there the first weekend in December actually as I have been for quite some time if you include st

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Charles as part of the st. Louis area, which you probably probably would out imagine. Yes. Yeah, it's one of the suburbs that's one of the suburbs just across the river there, but You've got a jeb.

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Oh some wind there or something or Storming pretty bad right now. Oh, oh really?

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Yeah. Okay. I won't be here much longer. I'm going to DC next month I'm sorry that that you're going to DC.

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Have you been to DC before I Have and you realize that whoever laid out the roads where it was on some sort of of a drug -induced

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Hysteria at the time they did so Well st.

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Louis isn't bad I haven't had a difficult beginning right there it's not bad in the city It's gets a little bit hectic, but yeah, especially once you get snow and stuff

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But anyway, so Guardian you've which which books of mine. Do you own on on Catholicism?

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Last two recent ones I've read was scripture alone and the Roman Catholic controversy

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Okay, and I think I've read a couple other ones in bookstores. I didn't buy them though. I Do I do own quite a few of your debates

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I purchased and I obviously Read your blog and listen to your broadcast.

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Okay. Well good. So you you feel however that there is

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Lack of honesty Misconstrued If I could clarify, okay

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When I say lack of honesty, I said, you know either scholarship a lack of scholarship or a lack of honesty

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Okay The difference between that two is the intent of what you write and I can't determine that because I don't know

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But when you get say facts wrong whether those facts are wrong is either based on lack of research or you're purposely doing it and I don't know which one it is, but SP one is two.

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Okay. So what are These these debates for example, I've had five with with with Mitch Pacwa on the mass justification the papacy sola scriptura and the priesthood

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Would you think that that? Dr. Mitchell Pacwa father Mitchell Pacwa able to read twelve languages

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If I was misrepresenting things right and left wouldn't he be able to point that out during the course of the debate

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You know, I'm not gonna speak for the father but you would think so But I guess what

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I'm calling in today is I have started a formal Documentation process where I'm going to write down At least some significant errors that you have made

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Okay, I'm gonna shoot for more quality than quantity and You know,

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I'll call in after you I sent you the document and we can discuss that. Okay Do you have any any any to share today?

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You know, I do but I don't want to steal my thunder away I like that. I'd like to write out in a more formal process if I want your listeners to At least think

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I'm being reasonable I'd like to write it out and I'm in a nice format and where they can do it themselves and Make their conclusions from there.

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Okay. So when might we expect that? Yeah, I would hope between Within three months.

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I hope to have that done I'd like to shoot for quicker than that, but I'm moving to DC so that's gonna slow me down, but I understand

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But three months is my timeline. Okay. Well We'll we'll be looking for that now.

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I I hope that's You know in the past when people have have made this accusation they've called in Every everyone who actually has called in has has confused their disagreement with my conclusions with an assertion of an error on my part and I hope that that you recognize there is a vast difference between coming to different conclusions and for example accurately citing

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Dominus yesus or Or something along those lines, right? Well, I I do agree with that I think but let's look let's analyze this logically on a macrocosmic scale

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Okay, when we take everything into consideration If we're coming to different conclusions, then one of us or both of us is either making a false assumption or Not systematically analyzing something properly and that's why we're coming to different conclusions now

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We may disagree on that but the fact is one of us is not doing a scholarly work if we're being honest and coming to different conclusions the presence you probably can't think from a macro cosmic scale of taking, you know history scripture and Simple logic into effect that a

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Catholic could possibly be scholarly on a macrocosmic scale or else They wouldn't be Catholic baby, you know

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Protestant or whatever you you hold to the truth No, I wouldn't believe anything even remotely like that not at all not at all because you're ignoring the the guiding role of Presuppositions in human thought and in the construction of a worldview and I have said for many many many many years

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That it is those presuppositions that determine that there are many many scholarly

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Roman Catholics But it is the presuppositions with which they start that determines the conclusions to which they come correct

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Correct they're making false assumptions No an assumption and a presupposition are not the same thing in logic or in the construction of a worldview

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I'm speaking in engineering terms, but okay, I think I know what you're saying But the fact is where they're starting from is already based on falsehood.

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Do you agree with that? Well a presupposition which then gives rise to the rest of your thought process

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Yes, I would I would agree that the starting presupposition of the faithful Roman Catholic especially that which embraces the

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Roman Catholic view of Tradition and the necessity of the church.

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Yeah, that's that's obviously going to result in the very differences that we I agree 100 % and That's why

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I'm talking in macrocosmic and microcosmic scales. I think anyone can be Scholarly on a microcosmic scale.

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In fact, I think you're very scholarly on a microcosmic scale However, you're based you're already starting on A lot of your arguments from a false presupposition.

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So and that's so are you saying that there are no scholarly Protestants? On a macrocosmic scale on a macro if they are not aligned with the truth

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Okay, then they something went wrong. Either they started out in the wrong place or Or they came to a false conclusion by you know misreading the scriptures or something.

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So in a macrocosmic scale I would put anyone that's not aligned with the truth and including a lot of Catholics that don't know their faith in that category

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Yes of not scholarly. So so when you say It really depends on what you want to define as scholarly.

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I say if you're doing scholarly work And you're gonna and you're honest. Okay, and this is doing the grace of God and all that You're going to come to the correct conclusion of the truth, you know if God deems you, you know

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He wants you to believe it if you're not coming to the truth and something went wrong in that process Either you started out wrong or your process in which you know, you went from something correct to a false conclusion

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You know Something is not going correct in your analysis well where we would differ especially in the application and especially in light of the comments that you made on the

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Catholic answers forums would be I can look at someone like Like much Pacwa and say that Mitch Pacwa is very scholarly

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Because that is he has obtained The tools and the means of doing meaningful research so that he can for example examine the biblical languages.

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He can examine Historical documentation. He knows how to do research, etc, etc

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And and I can say that he is scholarly on that level. It does not follow and I Should be

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Raleigh can be scholarly on that level as a Muslim. Okay, so so If we if we limit the term scholarly to only those who come to all the right conclusions

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I I don't know if that's a normative utilization of that term Yeah, I think you have a point there.

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I was using the broad sense, but with you though specifically With you I think

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You being a Protestant from my standpoint of the Catholic Church being true. I would hold you as in a macrocosmic sense

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Unscholarly but even in a microcosmic Sense, you know on certain issues even be even if your assumptions were correct or your presupposition was correct.

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I can find examples and I have Where you have committed unscholarly work and have come to either through a lot logical analysis of the facts

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To come to a false conclusion. I can and that's why I'm gonna dock. I'm not gonna so are you so are you saying that that?

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I have presented That I have either misquoted or made up for example dogmatic statements from the church

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Examples I have no, I don't think I would say that. No, how about how about in regards the biblical languages?

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Nope I wouldn't say that either. Okay. All right well I look forward to seeing what you what you put together and As you're moving just make sure to to do plenty of backups before you move your computer

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Or when it gets to DC or you could be getting to start all over again, so feel free to forward that to the ministry and Let us know when when you'd like to call in and discuss it.

24:18

Sure. I'd love to all right Well, I appreciate it. Have a good move. Okay. Thank you very much. Appreciate you giving time to all in and Okay, thank you very much sir.

24:28

Have a good day. Bye. Bye. All right. Well see today is

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July so who guess what guess what? three months from from right now is we will be on the cruise and In fact,

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I'm sorry Yeah, we're right in the middle of cruise right now. And in fact Two days

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Well Thursday this this Thursday's dividing line will mark exactly three months until the debate we should be released so Maybe we'll get to come back after the the cruise and have that that documentation of Evidently not my misrepresenting

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Roman Catholic dogmatic Constitutions and and documents or the biblical languages but coming to the wrong conclusions

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I guess which I think is what I said in my blog article is normally what people are actually saying is

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I disagree with him Well, I expect that people are gonna disagree with me That's really sort of a given in in debates when you have folks coming from different perspectives but my two cents here is

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I find it really interesting and and we had this with Jonathan preaching where They come on the show.

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They've already made charges publicly over on Catholic answers or on the other Boards and Then when they challenge you challenge them and they actually do come on.

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Well, I Don't have any examples right now of the charge that I made publicly over there

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And I'll need three months to document the charges that I made publicly and so confidently over there, but you're the unscholarly one

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Well, yeah, I got it, man I if I wouldn't do it that way, I mean if I if I were to go over to Catholic answers forums

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Mitch Pacwa wouldn't do it that way. That's true. That's exactly right Mitch back wouldn't either But if I were to go to the

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Catholic answers forums and I were to say James Aiken Jimmy Aiken, I'm sorry.

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I've known him before he changed his name back to Jimmy. So don't get mad at me Jimmy I've said many times

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Jimmy Aiken was completely wrong in our radio debate. It's the only debate we've done

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We did a radio debate And it was a formal debate where he had equal months time on the perseverance the

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Saints his entire And he knew I was to go to John 6. He'd read my materials enough.

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He knew his guys go John 6 It's a number of years ago. I think it was on KIXL radio and in Austin as I recall his entire argument on John 6 and the

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His entire response to my presentation John 6 was wrong. It was he he says this is an aggressive heiress stir

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Inceptive heiress. I'm sorry and and he comes up with this this incredible explanation and for years

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I provided documentation and his notes were still out there on his old web board and Armenians and Roman Catholics kept picking him up and repeating him and I kept demonstrating over and over again.

27:21

He's wrong. He's wrong. He's wrong finally somebody finally Wrote in I mean one person called the program number years ago and he didn't really answer the questions and finally somebody wrote in within the past I think year or so and Aiken goes.

27:36

Yeah, you know, I looked at that again and and I was just that was just silly I was just completely wrong. Well that leaves that entire debate without its central core of his own defense now if I were to point that out as I have on my blog numerous times

27:48

I Documented I can I if Jimmy Aiken called in the program as he has done and said hey

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Back up what you said? What would happen if I said, okay, give me some time.

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I'll Yeah, it's one thing give me some time when I'm live on the air and my files are on another computer that I can't get

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To that's one thing like right now. I forgot to turn the My tablet PC on so I can't get to it through the network even

28:14

I've wanted to get that's why I couldn't get that Sound clip it would have played it But I forgot to turn back on because I unplugged it last night because the thunderstorms were coming and if we had a big old

28:22

And I just didn't want it to go fried and so on so forth that I can understand but what would happen on the

28:29

Catholic answers forums board if I Made public accusations against a well -known

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Catholic apologist and then said well I'm not gonna really answer this for three months now. I understand. I'm moving.

28:41

I'm not saying I'm not I'm not trying to put Guardian down. I'm just pointing out even at this point. I wouldn't be given the

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I'm willing to have him on three months from now would would anybody on the other side be willing to do what I'm willing to do and oh

28:56

Way, no way wouldn't happen well three months in one week That's right, I need to come on just so you know

29:02

Guardian if you're listening right now you got three months and one week That's right. I do have this little thing called a major debate with an

29:09

Islamic apologist To to deal with all right, so let's quickly get Jeff on the air here, and then go back to that phone call hi

29:17

Jeff Hey, dr. White. How you doing doing good good? Just quick note before what I called about Jesus to math org

29:25

William Dembski and dr. Robert Marks from Baylor University Did an analysis of the

29:32

Talpia? Mathematics right with complete with MATLAB stuff, so if you're interested just wanted to give you if you haven't heard it yet Oh, yeah,

29:41

I saw I Have all those guys on my RSS readers, so I saw when those those came up gum

29:48

Yeah, they are more Responses being given and one of the reasons that more responses are being given is because these guys aren't going away and I know that a lot of folks are saying ah you know that's that's all over with I I've said for the beginning.

30:04

I'll say it again. We are in stage one and Stage two is coming and those who have laughed off Stage one are going to have a real difficult time dealing with stage two once it's

30:20

Once it comes because they won't have actually done the work. They needed to do to be prepared for for what's coming, so I'm just letting folks know

30:30

Expect more in the future on on that particular subject, but that wasn't your question go ahead.

30:36

Okay? I am writing a book review that involved a book about the 13 principles of Orthodox theology and In the book it takes to task the one principle that basically said that there's no

30:55

Pretty much says that there's no textual variance You lost okay, you lost me what in in Orthodox Judaism.

31:05

Oh, okay one of the principles of Main principles in Orthodox Judaism is

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Popularly understood as saying that there's no textual variance in the Masoretic text in the

31:20

Masoretic text Yeah, that's how it's pretty much understood Which is pretty much you can show very much as wrong well obviously

31:29

I mean anyone who's studied Hebrew even Who's carrying around the ability break astute cartencia has the couture a readings indicate right there on the page?

31:37

So it's like hello. What's what's that all about yeah that that's not what I need help on And one of the interesting things in the book is the author mentioned that it was

31:49

Introduced on the popular level in the Muslim world as a defense to the popular people

31:55

But the people who kind of gave that or you know rambam who who wrote the principles knew better But it's for the popular level as they were interacting with Muslim Okay in light of claims of chronic perfection, okay, yes, and in light of charges of corruption right right so in the book review

32:18

I kind of wanted to there was kind of Bart Ehrman has it and Islamic apologists have it, but I was just kind of wondering what a synopsis sort of answer would be of saying

32:31

How can you say you have? The Word of God while you have textual variance and I kind of Have I don't really know a good way of succinctly saying that well

32:44

You know a couple things yeah your your Muslim apologists want to assume first of all the perfection of their text when when all they can actually do is

32:56

Assume the perfection of whatever in their own in their own History Uthman came up with but even their own history of Uthman's revision demonstrates that there were variants in the earliest possible collections of the

33:12

Quran itself and so to to make that the standard is to in essence

33:18

Undercut their own position because I have to admit that there was initially Variants and so they all almost have to come up with a a second inspiration type thing which really

33:27

I don't see any basis at all in Islamic theology to to come up with that in in light of the centrality of Muhammad the fact that he was no longer there at the time of the

33:38

Uthmanic revision And there's a lot of people who would question Uthman's leadership and and his political motivations and things along those lines

33:44

So that's that's difficult, but the next thing is though the the motivation that people have

33:52

To want to have a singular text without variation is fully understandable but it also simply

34:00

Reflects a modern mindset where we have computers and printed books the mass publication things like that that did not exist before the 16th century and hence, no one prior to that could possibly really

34:19

Function in that way and so when they come up with ideas like this

34:25

For example the Jews that you were just mentioning coming up with an apologetic response Sure at that point they have a standardized

34:33

Masoretic text But but that standardized Masoretic text actually came about after the rise of Islam and the

34:41

Hebrew scriptures are Considerably older than the than the Quran. I mean talk about having to go through century after century after century after century of handwritten

34:55

Promulgation and and being passed on that fashion You either have to come to conclusion Sort of like what

35:01

Bart Ehrman does and and that is that in essence God would not allow textual variation He would either create automatic writing

35:07

We would see these miracles of every time you tried to misspell a word when you're typing the Bible your fingers would break

35:14

Something like that. I mean his his position just leaves me breathless as to its irrationality

35:19

That somehow God would absolutely make sure that there were no textual variants if this was ever inspired or Recognize that the existence of textual variation is perfectly in harmony with the fact that God shows the time when he was going to reveal his word and the mechanism by which he was going to promulgate that word

35:40

Over the course of history and that God isn't under some, you know, I suppose if you're a big free willer and You are in a situation where?

35:51

God has no providential Control over what takes place in time.

35:57

Then you'd get really really worried that Unless you had computer typesetting or something that the

36:03

Word of God would be lost but the fact that you have in the in the Distribution of the manuscripts of both the

36:11

Old and New Testament this this wide -ranging Testimony both between the Septuagint and the in the Hebrew text and so on and so forth

36:18

Does not allow us to come the conclusion that well Since there are textual variants then then we we cannot possibly call this the

36:26

Word of God Jesus Lived and ministered in a day when those textual variants already existed for example the biggest textual issue that I know of in regards the

36:36

Old Testament is the difference between the Masoretic text and the Septuagint text and Books like Jeremiah. Yeah, we talked about that earlier.

36:43

Yeah exactly And so but the problem is that Difference already existed in the days of Jesus, right?

36:50

and if that was somehow fatal to an understanding of the authority and the inspiration of the text then

36:56

Jesus would have known that unless you just turn him into a Palestinian peasant didn't know which end was up and didn't know anything about that and yet his confidence in the

37:06

Word of God and the authority of the Word of God and the Clarity of the teaching the Word of God is unparalleled and unquestioned.

37:13

So at least from a theological perspective There is there is nothing to substantiate the idea that since God used the mechanisms that mankind used to transmit the written word, which was significantly more

37:31

What word am I looking for it's not wholesome but profitable

37:37

Capable able than mere human recollection or oral tradition by by a long shot

37:44

That somehow basically God could not have given his word until the printing press came along or until computers came along or until Something came along it would absolutely guarantee that everything that was distributed was absolutely perfect That in essence is the underlying assumption that people are making and it just simply does not follow

38:01

Especially in light of the fact that the variations that exist are not the kinds of variations

38:07

That are assumed by many for example Islamic apologists who attempt to say that there's been this wholesale corruption and all the rest that stuff

38:14

We're talking about scribal variation not the kind of well We're gonna insert a book here and take a book out there type of variation

38:22

A lot of people assume actually actually exists which simply it does not So I I think that a person just needs to think through what it what it means that That God has preserved his word avoid the one extreme which says well he did that by by establishing one text and that text everything else from that is a is a attack of the devil or something like that, which is

38:48

Basically the mindset that you get in, you know jack chick and Muslims, which is an odd conjugation of the two but Sort of how that they go together

38:57

That's the one extreme and then the other extreme being you know Well, we just don't have a have a clue what originally said even

39:03

Bart Ehrman doesn't go that far He recognizes that we have a very good text He just questions whether it can be inspired because there are there are variants that exist within the manuscript tradition

39:14

Even though I've obviously criticized Bart Ehrman For issues that issues etc interview that he did.

39:20

Oh, yeah He pretty much when I heard that it's like well, that's not how you found on NPR. No, no, no

39:26

Hey, well, that's because you know, the folks at issues etc for forced him to deal with theological issues

39:33

That was the last thing in the planet. He wanted to actually deal with He really avoided that but so so to kind of sum up I would would you kind of say

39:41

I was kind of going with the Christological sort of Way of handling the problem is it kind of one of the tax that you just mentioned but then

39:51

Well, if I was just if someone say on a street corner, it was do the way of the master approach to you

39:57

Okay, so you're on a street corner. You're talking with someone Would you pretty much say that in the all of the text?

40:07

that we we have Have the Word of God Even in some areas we don't have absolute certainty about the correct wording or something like that Well, if someone if someone wants to ask whether Whether God has preserved his word my response to them always is he has done so by making sure that the distribution of the text is so wide and Witnessed by so many that there can be no wholesale editing and changing of the message of the

40:36

Word of God in the process Obviously there are textual variants that come into play simply because up until the invention of the printing press and even for quite some time after that actually you have

40:48

Human beings being involved in that in that that process, but those textual variants do not in any way

40:55

Amount to the corruption of the text in the sense of the any alteration of its message at all

41:01

Okay. Okay. I think that's very helpful and I think you know kind of what you were just saying there

41:07

Is that kind of what you said earlier? They would be accusing us of Collusion if there were no textual variants.

41:15

Oh, no kidding. Yeah, that's that's just it is is if there was one

41:21

Only one manuscript that was kept in the the greatly secret hidden vault by the great high priests of Scripture there wouldn't be anybody today who would believe that what was actually contained in there is what was written by the

41:33

Apostles because it There would be no way of demonstrating that that is the consistent meaning of the text all the way back to To the beginning so yeah, we there's always a way to get around Believing that God is accurately spoken

41:47

It even happened the garden even before there was a manuscript to worry about so have you attempted to set up?

41:54

Bart Ehrman for a debate at any time. Yeah, actually, but I'm I'm not looking for that for a little while There are other things that I need to get done first and and I would want to make sure

42:06

Honestly, it's very difficult to to know what kind of form that debate would take to be honest with you because Certainly there would be there would be people like you and me that have a real interest in you know text of variants and stuff like that, but You know you see

42:25

Bart Ehrman stuff popping up. It's in Christopher Hitchens. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes.

42:30

Yes. Yes Yes, I I heard Hitchens citing him. He has become the great the great high priest of Apostates he truly has there's no question about that, and and I'm I am certain that that opportunity will present itself in the future, but I'm I've got some projects that I need to understand be focusing on between now and then

42:50

Okay, all right. Thanks Jeff. Thank you. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. Let's real quickly

42:56

Get another Jeff this time from north of the border up in Canada. Hi Jeff Hey, dr.

43:03

White. How you doing? I've been reading through the

43:08

Quran as you instructed us to do But but but You know and I need to post this

43:19

ASAP I have created a table that gives you a general

43:29

Chronological Order of the Quran and it would probably be of help and assistance to read it in chronological order rather than in the order

43:37

It's in Yeah, I'll try to put that on the blog I created a table with that gives that that information, but anyways go ahead yes, so I ran into 305 uh -huh and I was like just a whole litany of apparent

43:58

You know contradictions In 305 and so I was wondering basically two things how would the

44:05

Muslim apologists handle it and is it legitimate to bring it up to them because like 551 talks about oh

44:15

Yeah, I'll just read it real quick From I used to probably oh you who believe take not the

44:22

Jews and Christians for your friends and protectors there But friends and protectors to each other and he amongst you that turns to them for friendship is of them verily

44:30

All I got is not a people unjust and then Goes on to talk about how bad we are for quite some time and then

44:42

To do I lost my little thing and 69 Says that those who follow the

44:48

Jewish scriptures and the Sabians and the Christians Any who believe in Allah in the last day and work righteousness on them be no fear nor shall they grieve and then it bashes us some more for quite some time and then in verse 82

45:03

It says strongest among men and in Enmity to the believers will bow find the Jews and the pagans and nearest among them in love to believers

45:11

Will bow find those who say we are Christian, right? So I'm just curious and I'm just curious at the how they would respond to that and if it's appropriate to Bring forward this country.

45:27

Yeah. Well, obviously one of the the primary And It sounds like you've got some some wind or something in the background there

45:38

I'm not sure if you're outside something like that, but prime one of the the primary tasks of the hadith literature and then

45:47

Islamic theology over the centuries has been to attempt to create a coherent understanding of the statements found in in the

45:58

Quran and So obviously there is there is going to be an answer and from our perspective we look at this and we look at the

46:08

Quran and we are looking at the Quran as an ancient document and and we're Utilizing what we think are the appropriate methods of interpretation

46:16

That is what did the original language mean when it was written in the context of which is written?

46:21

Well, the problem is is the issue of context because the context of the Quran is is rarely coherent You will have within individual surahs materials written at one period in Muhammad's life and materials written in another period of Muhammad's life and One of the problems you have especially if you're reading the

46:38

Quran through directly is that you've already read Materials from both the earlier

46:44

Meccan period and then the later Medinan period and those two periods obviously

46:52

Even during that time period Muhammad has different Experiences with Jews and Christians and things like that.

47:00

Now you just noticed for example in 582 Strongest among men and enmity to the believers will thou find the

47:07

Jews and pagans the nearest among them in love to the believers Will thou find those who say we are Christians because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world

47:16

And they are not arrogant. So obviously he had had Positive encounters

47:23

With certain Christian people and this is reflected then in We see this reflected in the text the

47:31

Quran the Muslim does not see this reflected in the text of the Quran because this is not the words of Muhammad these the words of Allah and so We automatically, you know, just as when

47:44

I read the Book of Mormon. This is this reflects to me Joseph Smith's understanding of His world at that time and therefore there's all this weird stuff in it about Treasures slipping into the earth because they're under a curse and this is a popular

47:58

Magical viewpoint of the time and blah blah blah blah. Well, I see that reflected in the text of the

48:03

Book of Mormon Well the same thing when you come to the text of the Quran you have the the understandings that Muhammad had

48:10

Reflected in what he says in the context of the of the Quran But the Muslim automatically dismisses that as having any possibility at all the believing

48:19

Muslim There are scholarly Muslims who do recognize that but they live outside of Islamic countries because they recognize that and if the country becomes

48:28

Islamic they need to move from there too because That's going to impact what they can and cannot say and so yes

48:35

It is it is perfectly valid to raise these issues in the attempt to get the

48:41

Muslim to Examine the Quran for what it is and that is it is a it claims to be a revelation from God But it also claims to be consistent with the revelations that came before it and what you have to do in this situation

48:54

The same thing you have to do with with all in almost any witnessing situation when you have someone who is very very closely attached to a particular

49:01

Religious perspective with a Muslim you're talking not just their religion, but their culture as well possibly, you know I mean, obviously there are nominal

49:07

Muslims as well, but especially a believing Muslim This is not only their religions their culture and so to attack their religion is to attack their cultures to attack them

49:16

What you're trying to do is to get them to to activate the critical thinking portions of their mind

49:24

To examine the Quran in the light of even its own claims for itself that is if it claims to be a continuation of this line of Apostles and prophets going back and we can establish what for example the

49:39

Christian scriptures taught at the beginning of the 7th century when when Muhammad comes upon the scene and what he teaches and understands is different and that there isn't a consistency between The Quran in the

49:53

Bible and that the Quran therefore gives examples This would be an example of of the fact that this is this is

49:58

Muhammad's understanding. This does represent Muhammad's words and not all his words that have been recorded in Arabic for eternity in heaven

50:07

Then that can be utilized. It's obviously not one of the first things you raise

50:13

Because the first thought from them is going to be well, I'm going to go back to the harmonizations that have been provided within within the dogmatic structure of the

50:22

Islamic faith in my particular tradition my Sunni commentators or my Shiite commentators, whatever and And they're gonna give me the understanding here because they're not yet to the point of even looking at this in a critical fashion

50:33

They can't even they can't even begin to conceive of that I think you've got to start at an earlier point and then this can be something that comes along later as a further

50:41

Illustration and demonstration of the the actual nature of the Quran as as being Muhammad's Okay Yeah, I would

50:54

I would start I think it's always good To start with who Jesus is because you cannot assume okay that the

51:01

Muslim You know the Muslim who has read who ESA is in the Quran doesn't know who Jesus is and and they are often blown away by the by the true

51:10

Jesus and that frequently will lead you into having to give a defense of of the biblical the biblical materials, but Okay.

51:19

All right. Thanks. I Yes, sir. Go ahead. Yeah real quick question You mentioned the Hadith a couple times to really talk to Muslims about the

51:29

Quran Would you have to get a copy of the Hadith literature? Well, I remember my copies are eight and nine volumes respectively between Sahih al -Bukhari and Sahih al -Muslims

51:38

So they are available online It might be if you're going to have a lengthy conversation with them it might be good to know where those are available online

51:49

If they if they raise the issue or if you want to do a search of them for a certain keyword just something like that but Most of your

51:57

Muslims haven't read a whole lot of Hadith literature themselves So it's not like you necessarily have to be filling your your shelf space with that even though I certainly have been

52:06

All right. Gotcha. Okay. All right. Thanks. All right. God bless Thank you.

52:12

All right. Great questions today. Let me very quickly Get to at least a section of Steve Gregg's program where I'm introduced as John White and Where he discusses the possibility of a debate between the two of us.

52:27

Let's get to it real quick. Hey, you're illegal Do you have any updates on a debate with John White and I'll get off the line talk to later

52:37

Okay. Thanks, John. I Have not forgotten about John White at all. I am desiring to debate him.

52:43

I've had so many things on my plate It's just has not been possible for me to even think about when this time will arise.

52:50

He's a busy man, too He travels all over and I've done very little other than travel in the last two months when

52:57

I think it's about two or two And a half months ago the suggestion for debate first came up. I've been traveling most of that time since then and I And I've just come home from in the last two weeks of traveling and I'm you know,

53:09

I really haven't been able to look at my Counter but the truth is as much as I really would like to debate

53:16

John White and I think we shall because he's open to It too unless he's changed his mind. We will do it. It just isn't the highest priority for me

53:24

And it's not because there's anything Undesirable about debating him. It's simply that there are things more pressing in my life like taking care of my kids, for example as a single dad and And my local teaching and my daily radio program and so forth and there's there really are limits

53:43

To how much I can do until at least until my kids are out of the house But I do plan and last

53:48

I heard James White also plans to to participate in a debate He he suggested a debate on the radio on my show, which

53:57

I'd be glad to have That'd be an easy way to do it in one sense But I would have to have some kind of situation where there'd be a moderator

54:06

So that I got to speak as up as much as my guest did Usually when I don't have a moderator the most aggressive speaker, which is usually my guest

54:14

Does all the talking or it seems to and I don't get to answer back much so we would either have a moderator and do it here on the air or We have thought about perhaps seeing if James would be willing to fly up here to Santa Cruz and We could possibly have the debate in Twin Lakes Church here one of the pastors and Twin Lakes Church suggested that would be a possibility and That would be a venue where it could be taped and videoed and so forth

54:40

And I'd actually rather debate him face to face than on the radio, but maybe we could do both But as far as the update, there's no date at this point planned.

54:49

Some people are getting impatient well, if they get too impatient they can debate in themselves if they want to I've got things

54:54

I have to do and Debating is not one of the things that I have to do. I have to tell you the truth

55:00

It's a desirable thing for me to do, but it's not my chief priority. So it'll probably be

55:05

I'm guessing it'll be you know easily a couple months if not longer before we actually have a debate we'll have to do some planning and Scheduling and so forth that hasn't yet been done.

55:16

Let me just pause there I just noticed in in channel that one of our channel participants

55:23

Micah is familiar with the the church that was just mentioned and that they would

55:28

As far as he can tell Would probably have cameras and so on and so forth already there

55:35

Which which would be good and of course, Santa Cruz is not a million miles away from me either obviously for me

55:44

Arranging debates is almost always a multi month and longer

55:49

Down the road type of the thing has to be I mean I have writing projects and speaking

55:54

Engagements and and all sorts of things like that that are just necessary for me to be able to To engage in and so you have to schedule these things down the road.

56:05

I Had written to Steve Gregg. It's Steve. It's not John or Bob or Phil. It's Steve Fred.

56:11

Yeah, Fred Fred Greg. Okay Well, if I'm John then then he's then we've got

56:16

Gene Scott over there Who's this who's not dead but actually has a reformed Baptist program Gene Cook.

56:22

I'm just kidding Anyways, but how much does gene know if I'm actually kidding or not? That's the real question.

56:28

Anyway Yeah, I had written to him. Yeah, Greg Greg That's make it easier anyway, only one name to remember but I had you know written and Had let him know that I had done that series on You know

56:46

Radio Free Geneva Responding to his stuff and you know, the one thing I didn't ever get to was doing his materials on Romans 9 and I've had a number of people who have comment on that because I said

56:59

I'd get to it and I kept getting to other stuff So maybe it will have to do since we've got three months of to just sit around do nothing here on the program to to do some

57:10

Radio Free Geneva's and maybe I'll need to Fire up the Radio Free Geneva thing for Thursday and to go ahead and do

57:20

Romans 9 because I'm looking I had had queued these up and let me see here one of them is 10 minutes long and the other one is four minutes and 13 seconds, so that's that's 13 14 minutes worth of Just his own presentation

57:40

Let alone what I would want to do is I'd want to start I'd want to go through Romans 9 and Then give his view of Romans 9 and then interact with it

57:52

Man would I actually be able to play that whole thing without stopping it. That'd be really difficult I'd have to be chained down thrown into another room.

57:59

The door is locked something like that It's the only way I could possibly do that, but we'll see how we can figure out maybe we'll do that on Thursday and And maybe that'll get a little more impetus going

58:08

I certainly wouldn't have any time until probably January myself

58:14

But hey January in Santa Cruz is probably pretty nice. So That might be a good time to be looking at trying to do something like that.

58:21

So we'll see if we can work out Thanks for everybody who called today lots of interesting topics on the dividing line.

58:28

We'll be back on Thursday. See you then. God bless The Dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:35

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59:47

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