Steve Jeffery & Kyle Hessler: Works/Based & the Theology of Work + Fresh 10 Segment DMW#220

Opening Banter and Sponsor Reads

Exploring theology, doctrine, and all of the fascinating subjects in between. Broadcasting from an undisclosed location. Dead Men Walking starts now. Oh well, hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Dead Men Walking Podcast.

Thanks for coming along for the ride. You can check us out at dmwpodcast .com to find out more about us there. We do have some snarky merch as well if you want to support the show. The new How About You Just Shut Up and Let That Be Your Wisdom Job 13 .5 t-shirt is selling pretty well.

People seem to like that. It's a little cheeky. But hey, sometimes you've got to quote scripture to the pagans. You know what I mean? Welcome back though. We've had some great guests on over the last couple of weeks.

We're going to keep it going. Generally, if I'm by myself, I'll rant and ramble a little bit. But if not, we like to get right to the guests so we can bring you guys great content. But before we do that, I've got to tell you about a sponsor of the show real quick.

Great sponsor. Jacob Supply. He's in Temperance, Michigan. But he sells building equipment, building materials, like half price. I don't know how this guy does it. He's got flooring. He's got appliances.

He's got lumber. He's got metal roofing. And it's all 30, 40, 50 off retail. He buys out wholesale nationwide. I've got guys coming from three, four, five, six hours away just to come up here, buy the stuff for their spring project, for their building projects, for contractors.

It's pretty crazy. He's a reformed brother in the Lord. We want to support him. He supports the show. JacobSupply .com. You got to check him out. I mean, they've got core tech flooring, like premium luxury flooring that Home Depot and Lowe's sells for like nine bucks a square foot.

Literally, we got a cease and desist from his competitors. It was so low, I had to quit saying the price of it on the advertisement. They said, hey, you can't do that. We can't get it that cheap. And I know that sounds like a gimmick, but it actually is.

I built my chicken coop with his supplies. I've built my cabin up north with his supplies. So even if you're not from the Michigan area, even if you're from four or five, six, seven, eight hours away, drive up there.

It's worth it. Load up on supplies and appliances, flooring, roofing, all that stuff. JacobSupply .com. Absolutely love that brother in the Lord. So let's support brothers in the Lord that are building things and he's building something pretty awesome.

Cool. Now that we got the business out of the way, I want to give you a quick intro of these two guests. And, you know, I say quick because I really had to pare it down because both these guys have done so much stuff.

I probably could have read four or five pages on them each, but we're going to go with two paragraphs. So Pastor Steve Jeffrey formerly served as minister at Emmanuel Church in London, England from its founding in 2009.

He's an author with multiple books written. He was a volunteer chaplain of the Metropolitan Police in London, England, and currently serves on the board of the CRUC Domestic Church Planning Network and is a board and faculty member of the Reformed Evangelical Seminary.

He's also a scientist and has a doctorate in physics from Oxford University. You might have to ask him about that double slit experiment. That one still confuses me. Sitting next to him is Kyle Hessler.

He's a member of All Saints Church where Pastor Jeffrey keeps a watchful eye on him because we know Kyle can get himself into trouble. He's a husband to Jenny and a father to Theoden. I want to make sure I say that right, and if not, correct me, in Stonewall.

He's a professional fighter and has always been an entrepreneur at heart and has been involved in video production, real estate, and owns a vending machine business. Very lucrative if you're doing that correctly as well, from what I hear.

He currently manages Page 50. Friends of the show, sponsors of the show. Let's go, Stuart. Page 50, love him. A Christian marketing company and is also the founder of the Workspace Conference, which is what we're going to be talking about, and which is what Pastor Steve is a speaker at.

Guys, how are you doing? Welcome to the Dead Men Walking Podcast.

The Vision for the Works/Based Conference

Great to be here. Nice to see you.

Man, that was flattering.

It was quite an introduction, wasn't it? You should produce them for money, Greg. You'd do a great job.

There you go.

Well, you know, I didn't mean it as flattery. I meant it as you guys are doing a lot of stuff, building a lot of stuff, involved in a lot of things, accomplished a lot of things. That's the kind of guests we like having on and talking about the things of God on the podcast to bring value and content to the listeners.

So why don't you guys expand, if you need to, on those bios at all? Anything I forgot in that shortened version of who you are, where you've been, and what you do?

My son is King Theoden.

Oh, there's a king in front of him.

Other than that, no, it was fantastic. No, thank you for everything you said. Yeah, we're definitely two guys just taking dominion in different ways, more theological, more entrepreneurial, I suppose.

Yeah, I think I'm right. Am I right that Ferdin David Hesler was the first person I baptized here at All Saints?

Correct.

I think I might be right. So yeah, I can't even remember. There was a blur that went past. I'm one of the pastors here at All Saints Presbyterian in Fort Worth. You didn't mention who I'm married to. I'm married to the wonderful Nicole with three kids, Ben, Becky, and Abby.

Ben and Becky are at college. Abby wishes she could be and pretty soon will. Lord willing, yes. And between them, those four, my family, and this church gives me enough to keep me occupied. Oh, and that and Kyle, who also gives me plenty of things to keep me occupied with.

That's why I included that in the bio.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, you know, like I said, I had to shorten it up a little bit. I couldn't do 22 minutes on the bio, but I appreciate you guys adding that. Obviously, both seasoned in both of your areas of expertise, so we love having you on.

So I want to talk about this conference because one, first of all, Kyle, I have to tell you, I've helped with my church builders conference just as a speaker, and there's a lot of work that goes into that.

I've looked into doing my own conference, and I went, I don't have the time or energy for that. It's a lot of work to put on a conference, and I've said it before. I've talked to the cross-politic guys.

I've talked to Jeffrey Rice and those guys down there when I go to Tennessee. It is just so much work. So first of all, I want to give you your props for that because there's a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff that goes on that people just don't realize to get speakers to show up to events, listeners and conference goers, vendors, all that stuff.

So kudos to you for doing that. I looked at the website, and I went, geez, this conference looks awesome. I wish I wasn't out of town or I'd have to travel down there and take a look because the speakers are awesome.

The subject matter is something that I think is needed. Can you speak a little bit about what people are going to hear at the conference? And also, we'll link all this up, but go ahead and throw out there the dates and where it's at and where people get tickets while you're talking too.

Work, Vocation, and Dominion

June 20th and 29th, we do have a speaker's dinner the night before. That's kind of an exclusive seating, but the actual conference starts Friday morning, June 20th, in Fort Worth, Texas. It'll be at the Hilton downtown.

Yeah, man, this is a lot of my passion. I mean, you and me have met at Fight Last Feast a couple times, and I've been able to get some backstage know-how and knowledge from Gabe over there. So I felt pretty good about putting on events.

I've done some different events in the past, so the idea of doing a conference didn't seem too outlandish, though I'm looking forward to July 1st when I can nap for a day because it is a lot of work. But really, my heart is for taking dominion through vocation, and I really believe that we need to be encouraging guys to not so much just start businesses, though if you're capable of obviously want, if the Lord's given you those skills, we don't want you to bury those talents.

We want you to actually try to start a business. But I would say that really, we need to recover what vocation dominion looks like. I think we think about jobs too often, and so we get a little lost in the minutia of what is a job versus what's your vocation versus what is dominion taking.

And so I really just want to talk to the heart of that. I want to have some speakers that are more educated than I am about that. And to be perfectly honest, I've said this on a couple other podcasts, I picked guys that are going to educate me.

There's a reason I'm not speaking at the events. I'm just organizing it because I've got to learn from these guys. So if no one else shows up, I'm just going to sit in the front row and learn from them for two days.

Same reason why I do this podcast, bring smarter guys on it, and I just listen, ask them all the hard questions.

I've got to tell you what I'm excited about. Like a lot of pastors, I've spent time teaching guys here about work, and we have men's discipleship breakfasts. We've done multiple men's discipleship breakfasts where we've talked about how to approach work Christianly.

And I'm going to try and bring some of that stuff with a bunch of other things to this conference. But what I'm really excited about and why I really liked Kyle's vision and thought, this isn't going to duplicate what we've done in the church here.

I don't think it's going to duplicate what any church does. It's going to add something new because it's actually going to be taking the next step practically to thinking, and more than thinking, giving opportunities for people to make connections, people to learn from seasoned professionals, people to get actual practical advice about how to start your own business, to get some mentoring and to meet people who are experienced at building a business from scratch and having it hit millions of revenue, to get people.

So Andrew Krapochet, one of our speakers, is the CEO of Red Balloon, the recruitment website. And again, like anybody who is in a job now where they're not 100 satisfied or thinks they might be in a future in a job where they're not 100 satisfied, or they're likely to be recruiting for their own firm, their own company in the future.

I can't understand why you wouldn't want to take the opportunity to get to know Andrew Krapochet if you had the opportunity to do so and you're able to make it. So someone like Andrew to come along and talk about how he seeks to put Christian principles into practice in his business.

It's just a fantastic opportunity and I'm looking forward to being a part of it for my talk and then sitting there paying attention and trying to soak it in from the other guys.

Christian Work in a Secular and Ideological Economy

Yeah, so I have so much to say on this subject. It's hard for me with just a touch of ADD. Don't tell John McArthur. I'm not sure if he thinks I would have it or not. But it's so hard to keep all these thoughts in my mind while you guys are talking because I have so much to say and so many questions to ask because it's right up my alley.

I own a real estate brokerage, Covenant Real Estate. You can do the guesswork on the double meaning of that, a legal covenant and the theology. But I've seen that even growing up in the 80s and 90s, there was still this thought with Christians and the evangelical world that a good Christian worker was just someone who went to work every day and worked for a boss and was just kind of nice.

Didn't cuss, didn't get into the filthy talk with the guys in the break room. And that was what we were supposed to do as Christians. And we kind of coasted on a society that we're riding on the coattails of Christendom.

And now we've turned around and realized, oh, the pagans and the secularists, they own everything. They own the cloud, they own the bandwidth, they own the roads, they own the cars, they own everything.

So how important is it? And will you be touching on this in the conference at all? And look, we're not dogging on anyone that holds a nine to five or works for someone. You can be an influence maker or a decision maker in a job when you work for someone.

But will there be a distinction of, look it, maybe being a Christian in 2024 is not just clocking in at a job. It's actually building something or kind of laying a foundation for something that's generational since we serve a generational God.

Is that kind of an angle you guys will be taking at all? Or am I way off base there?

No, a hundred percent. In fact, I've said multiple times that. So we're going to have a networking component to this where on Saturday morning, we want guys to, there's not going to be talks. We're going to have our host, Darren Doan, is going to kind of walk around interviewing the different vendors and stuff.

But we want guys to show up to this event with their resumes, with opportunities, ready to network. But I've said before, I don't want guys who have a good job at like Amazon or Audible or some company we would deem woke.

And they probably genuinely, they probably actually are woke. But we don't want people to show up this job feeling like, oh man, I work for a bad company. I need to quit that job and take a massive pay cut and go work for a Christian.

We don't want guys to feel that way. We don't want to discourage anybody that if you're taking dominion in a certain sector, keep doing that. So to your comment of people that work nine to five, we definitely want to encourage guys that are just working jobs.

This is not a, you come to this conference and you're going to figure out how to start a business. Some guys need to dig ditches. Some guys need to tell people how to dig ditches. Like I don't think it's biblical to just say everybody needs to own a business.

That's not right. So we don't want to do that. And I would also say that we definitely do want to encourage though, maybe people finding opportunities to work harder or find more opportunities if you can handle it.

We don't want you to sacrifice time with your children, time with your family. But I think one of the books that's been super influential is David Bonson's Full Time, where he talks about these different spheres.

And we think of work as like, oh, that's one sphere. It's out there. The reality is you don't show up to work and stop being a father or a husband, right? You show up to work and you continue to be a father and husband.

When you come home, we don't think in the same way. We don't think, well, I'm a sales guy, but I stopped being a sales guy at home. Your vocation and how you're taking dominion extends beyond just a nine to five.

That's how we want to encourage guys. Not necessarily don't work at this company or don't work at that company or start a business. I don't think that that's the right model. And I think even in the reform circles, maybe we need to do a little jabbing, pushing back on some of that mentality.

I think it's interesting as well. Just to pick up your point, Kyle, about people who are working in an environment where there's a fair amount of, let's just call it ideological texture or even progressivism within the company and in the structures, in the human resources management, those kinds of things.

What we're starting to see is principled Christians pushing back against that. I mean, I'll just give one example from actually one of our speakers for the Workspace Conference. David Barnson, as you know, is a capital manager.

He manages five point something billion dollars of his investors, his clients money. And he's been working along with Jerry Boyer, who's a friend of mine and maybe a friend of yours as well, to try to encourage the companies in which he invests to recognize when they've overstepped the mark from human resource management into progressive activism.

And so just in the last few months, he's tabled questions at shareholder meetings at JP Morgan and a truest financial court to say, look, you're you're not only stepping outside the bounds of what you should be doing, you're harming your own business, because in these two cases, it's been the debanking thing where conservatives or Christians have had their accounts canceled or suspended.

And what's fascinating about it is he's he's a reformed Christian. And so is Jerry. And they both understand that we don't retreat and back away from social and political and ideological institutions just when they no longer exhibit our flavor of reformed Christian conviction.

We try to push back. We work within the structures that are there. And we seek to represent our case well and cogently and try and persuade people to live out a more principled, wise Christian and actually therefore more productive ethic in the world, in the particular domain they're in.

And behind that is a whole theological superstructure where you want to say, actually, Christians in in working alongside people who don't share our Christian convictions, we can be a blessing to them by exhibiting Christian integrity, by exhibiting Christian maturity and a long term approach to life and in whatever particular professional domain you're in, deploying a Christian ethic in that situation, we can actually bless the people around us, which is one way that the gospel advances.

One way the gospel advances is precisely by companies. We might look at them and think, why are they doing this? And they start to see their Christian employees are their best employees. And that's how Babylon gets shaped by the the Judahites in exile.

Or that's how JPMorgan gets its acts back together and stops debanking conservatives, because somebody's pointed out that this is bad for business and it's bad for business because it's not biblical to treat people that way.

So there's some examples. I mean, David's going to be there. Maybe we can persuade him to talk about that. And it's this, it's actually driven by theological conviction, Greg. It's driven by the conviction that we are not in the business of retreating from the world.

We're not in the business of smashing things up. We're in the business of being in the world, being principled and committed to Christ in the world and expecting Christ through us to shape the culture in which we find ourselves.

Amen. Yeah, that's all great stuff. So I agree with it. We do. We move forward. We build where we can build. Some of my concerns, and I'm wondering, and we might be getting off the topic of what we'd be talking about at the conference, but I see things, too, to where, you know, you guys are familiar with the ESG scores that just came out, right?

And now they're pushing them to banks and they say, hey, banks, if this business doesn't have a certain ESG score, which stands for environmental, social and governance, if they're not, you know, equity and inclusion and diversity and climate change and all the things that the local have to absolutely love and idolize, then we're not going to loan money to this bank or I'm sorry, to this business as a bank.

So I look at things like that and I go, hmm, how are we going to now the Christians that are sticking their heads in the sand and they have the rapture hatch and they're just waiting for Jesus to come back and you know what I mean?

And they're like, there's nothing we can do. It's got to get way worse. They've got their theology and we know what they're doing. For the Christians like us, I would say that go, hey, no, we don't go out and, you know, just start swinging hammers at people, but we don't retreat either.

You know, we have a sharpened sword and it's sheathed, but we do know when to use it and we can use it skillfully. How do we look at things like that and go, OK, we have banks that are because they've realized they can't do this from the top down with Congress.

A lot of these policies aren't coming through the legislative branch of the government. They're actually coming from private companies are coming from lobbyists. They're coming from social groups and they go, hey, we'll just skip over and we'll pressure banks into not loaning money to these people.

And then we're cutting it off at the source. And I do have to say, progressives in the left, the ones that plan like that, they are smart. They are intelligent and how they're they're using that. So, you know, maybe we're getting in the weeds here, but how does a Christian business, a Christian entrepreneur, heck, even someone who, like I said, works for someone but needs to take out a loan for to start a new business or something like that.

How do we combat things like that biblically, where we do see a progressive secular state going, oh, if you don't believe in the gods that we believe in, we'll cut off your money source, your lending source, things like that.

Resisting Progressive Activism and ESG Pressure

I mean, I want to say a couple of things and, Carl, you jump in. The first is I think there's just a case for making our voice heard. And this is the examples you gave of the banks that are being discouraged by their shareholders from lending to institutions or companies that don't have the right DEI alphabet soup.

Well, it's not that they're being encouraged by a vast majority of the ordinary people who own those shares. It's a very small minority of woke activists. And it's helpful to know some history of this aspect of progressive ideology.

It's Antonio Gramsci. It's the long march to the institutions. The plan has always been to fill the low and medium level bureaucratic positions in education, law, media, politics, the corporate world, with people who are bought into this progressive ideology.

Because once the speech code has been written or once the DEI policy has been written, even the CEO has to abide by it. And if the policy was written by some 24-year-old who's just come out of some woke university, it doesn't make any difference.

The CEO has still got to abide by it. So what happens is you get a very small vocal minority of people, either in bureaucratic positions or who have shares in companies for the purposes of activism, making their voice heard.

And what people like Jerry Boyer and David Bonson are doing is saying, well, hold on a second. We actually own a few tens of millions of dollars of this company or hundreds of millions in investment portfolios for people who are not progressive activists.

We want to make our voices heard as well. And so there's that long-term investment in and commitment to seeking cultural change just by persuasion. And if you're a bank like Truist, say, and you do quite a lot of business in the American South, you might be open to persuasion that it's not a brilliant idea to alienate all of your conservative Christian customers.

So there's that point. And the other thing, of course, and this is more immediate and practical for the kind of people that you're specifically thinking of in your question. What about the business that just wants a $100 ,000 loan to buy some equipment and a new vehicle just to get started?

And because it's like a three-man band and they haven't got a DEI policy and they have no intention of getting one, their local bank won't fund it and nobody will fund it. What happens then? And I think at that point, we've got to say we need not just a long-term policy.

We need a short-term policy. We need a short-term plan. And if we can encourage people with financial resources who share the same Christian conservative commitments to get in touch with each other, if we can actually help them to get in touch with each other, that will be fantastic.

And one of the things that Workspace is about, and this is the point at which I'm taking Carl's job from him, but this is your space. I'm sure you will talk about it more eloquently than me. But I would love to see guys showing up for Workspace conference and meeting people who have money to invest, people who need investors, meeting people with money to invest.

Because that's how banking used to work, right? You'd go into your branch and you'd meet your local manager and he'd try and figure out whether you had a business proposition that was going to fly and whether they wanted to lend you money to help support it.

That's how it used to work, on trust, on integrity, on a shared commitment to a value-creating enterprise. And if we can get back to that by people who share the same kinds of commitments to hard work, to conservative moral values, to Christian principles, putting them in touch with each other so they can work together, then that's our short and longer term solution, Carl.

Let me come at it from another angle. So let me be a little harsh for a second too.

Well, perish the thought, Carl.

Well, so I mean, I think about a lot of the things I want to talk about this conference is kind of de-socialist, like removing the Marxism from the workplace. And so one of the things I think we need to talk about a lot is this idea of fair.

And I hear this all the time in my workplace and other workplaces of like, well, that's not fair from Christians. And I go, does God bless equally amongst his, you know, how he disperses resources? Well, no, he doesn't.

So when I hear people upset because it's so much harder to start a business today than it was in the 80s, which it is, it's way harder with all the different regulations, insurance policy. I mean, for crying out loud, all the stuff I had to do just to get a conference going, it's ludicrous.

Ask me about my pro wrestling business that failed another day. And I just tell you all the stuff I had to do for that. I'm still paying taxes for a business that never made a profit. But my point is, we have this.

The good old U .S. government, they'll take it even if you don't have it.

Yeah, taking from my pocket, which has a hole in it. But I don't want to complain about that because this is the challenge that God has given. God has blessed us in our time with a much harder challenge than our parents from the 80s and the 70s and 60s and so on and so forth.

This is just how God does things. And so I don't want to bemoan stuff. I want to challenge brothers and especially men. This isn't a men's conference. We do want we have tickets for families and couples, but it does seem like a lot more men are interested.

And that's fine because I think men want to be challenged. I think they want to be put in a position to succeed. And we want to encourage that. So on the challenge part, yeah, it's much harder to start a business today.

But that's the challenge. That's the dragon we have called to slay. On the other end, how do we combat some of this stuff for your average Christian? Well, I kind of go like, let's start with encouraging men to get married, love their wives well, have families, love their children well, and then start exploring dominion outside of their homes.

I mean, how are they what's their relationship to their local church, their pastor, their deacons, their elders, so on and so forth? I want to encourage guys to kind of focus on themselves really strongly before they're worried about the DEI out there.

Not that they shouldn't be worried about it, but my point is more if we're wanting to encourage men, it's starting in the home. It's starting with the self. We need to be focused on the church purifying itself before we're worried about the sins of Congress or the sins of woke banks and stuff.

Again, not saying that's not a problem. It's definitely a problem. I've run into it. But it's to say that when we're like Steve Jeffrey here has a bunch of swords that he can go combat in the public square right now.

I do not. I'm trying my best. But I still have a young family, and I'm trying to raise my two boys and love my wife well, and I'm doing stuff like this conference. But there are certain people that are better equipped to combat the world and the paganism we're seeing.

And I think that the real reality is if not to be too critical of previous generations. But I do think if men in the church from the last 100 years had done a better job of worshiping the Lord in their churches and having solid worship, being strong-willed with certain incoming feminism or whatever it may be, if previous generations had been better equipped to combat some of that stuff, we probably wouldn't be in the mess we're in.

But that comes back to my point about I think we need to clean up our own homes. And so I want to encourage guys to do that while they're also conducting their lives professionally because you can't put that aside.

You can't say, I'll stop working, go take care of my family, and then come back to work. You got to do it all.

So

Work as Christian Discipleship and the Doctrine of Secular Vocation

Yeah.

Well, I think there's you mentioned the home, and anybody who's a member at All Saints will know that that's a domain that Pastor Shaw and I hear that All Saints talk about a great deal. But I want to say as well, the workplace.

Like, if you're a Christian in the workplace and you're not known as the best, the most hardworking, then that's a good place to start as well. And we've had men here we've got a couple of guys at our church who spoke at a men's discipleship breakfast.

I interviewed them about what it's like to employ Christians. And honestly, it's mixed. Sometimes they have Christian guys working for them who are fantastic. Sometimes they have Christian guys working for them who just feel like they're looking for a handout or a hand up or something.

And you think, no, working for any company and certainly starting your own business is relentlessly demanding. And there's another place we can start at home. The challenge before us is Carl's right.

We're in a unique situation. Every generation is in a unique situation. And we're not going to drift out of it. Like, downstream from here is bad. So, upstream is the way we want to go in the sense that we're going to be pushing against all our prevailing tendencies.

So, when you've got college students, they want to be putting the hours into their studies. When you've got employees, you've got sales guys, when you've got manufacturers, when you've got IT people, we want to be encouraging them.

It really matters from the point of view of Christian discipleship that you're doing the very best job you can to serve your boss, to serve your company, to serve your clients. And that is a manifestation of Christian discipleship.

I'm in danger of talking too much here, but I want to get back to something you mentioned before, Greg, or you hinted at. Where, in the past, the way that pastors and churches have spoken about the secular, quote-unquote, workplace, is basically, just don't cuss, and don't get into trouble, and don't have an affair with your secretary.

And that's the limit of your Christian discipleship. Because, basically, the gospel has been shrunk down to this little thing where it's like the forgiveness of sins and the life everlasting, and that's it.

And God be praised. Our sins are forgiven, and we have everlasting life. But the gospel has more claims on us than that. Christ has more claims on us than that. And what we're called to do is to live out our faith in every area of our life.

And this is just going back to the reformed rediscovery of the doctrine of secular vocation. If you're a shoemaker, or your job is to milk cows, you have dignity in the eyes of God. It matters that you do your work, and it matters how you do your work.

And it's not that your Christian discipleship is measured by how many people you've evangelized today. If you've evangelized people, great. I preached a sermon yesterday encouraging people to do that.

But I also want people to come to me on Sunday saying, you know what, Pastor, I feel like I learned something this week. Because I really pushed myself at work, and by God's grace, I discovered I could actually do more.

If I really put the hours in first in, last out, working as hard as I can to try and serve the clients I serve, or to try and do the best job I can for my boss. That is Christian discipleship.

Proverbs, Laziness, and Practical Wisdom for Business

Yeah. So I think those are some really good points there. A lot to unpack. I think that's lost on a lot of younger guys, too. Like, hey, I'm just going to start this business, and I'm going to be this entrepreneur.

And it's like, well, be faithful in the job you have. Christian discipleship also is, like you said, outwork everyone at the job you work with. Do it with joy and cheerfulness. Treat everyone how you would want to be treated.

And if you can get through that list, then yes, then maybe you're qualified to start looking at entrepreneurship. Kyle, I would agree with you, too. Funny fact, when I was younger, if I said, that wasn't fair, my father would come to me and say, we don't say that.

Satan is fair. God is just. So get that out of your vocabulary. And it stuck with me.

You ought to get your father.

Yeah, through adulthood. God is just, and the world wants everything to be fair, right? And I would agree with you, Pastor, too, that, you know, as a real estate agent, the 80 of my clientele that's secular, they kind of fall right in the middle.

We have a good transaction. I'm respectful. They're respectful. Christians either fall on extremely great to work with or the worst clients I've ever had. And it shouldn't be that way. You know, and it's two extremes.

And I, in my business.

What's that?

Sorry, I'm interrupting you, but I'm fascinated. Why do you, do you have a theory why it should be like that?

I, I really think they, they take kind of a carnal idea of, we believe in these same things. So therefore I should be able to get a deal or maybe abuse the relationship. And they don't think they're doing it out of like, I don't, I don't think they're mean or, or they're trying to send, but it's almost like we've admitted to the same thing where we're in this club of, and I think they view it that way.