May 9, 2022 Show with Mark Raines on “God of Wonders: In Creation, In Providence, In the Family & In Salvation” PLUS Simon O’Mahony on “Church Membership: A Christian’s Duty & Privilege, Not a Mere Option”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.

We're listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this

ninth day of May 2022.

And today we have a first -time guest for the first hour and The

second hour.

We will have a returning guest who also happens to be one of my pastors at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle,

Pennsylvania for the first hour.

We have Mark Raines who has served churches in London South Africa

and Michigan and currently pastors since 2014 Grace Reformed Baptist

Church of East Haven, Connecticut.

He is going to be addressing God of Wonders in creation in Providence

in the family and in salvation, which is also the theme of an upcoming conference.

Where.

Pastor rains will be preaching.

He will be the primary speaker and My one of my own pastors who I mentioned just

moments ago Simon O'Manny of Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

He will also Be on the speaking roster at this conference known as the Mid

-Atlantic Reformed Baptist Family Conference, which is coming up very soon.

But it's my honor and privilege for the first hour To welcome for the very first time ever to

iron sharpens iron radio pastor Mark rains.

It's great to have you pastor mark and why don't you tell our listeners about Grace Reformed Baptist Church of East Haven, Connecticut.

You haven't passed it here in East Haven since 2014, we're a small reformed Baptist Church out here on the East

Coast.

Yeah, it's a town of about 30 ,000 I think but parts of greater New Haven area.

Which I think the population there is closer to a million.

So New Haven probably better known for Being the home of Yale University.

Population out here is quite diverse.

And we see that reflected in our church.

We've got people which I

like

because it comes

by it.

Well, praise God and can you tell us something about the doctrinal makeup of the

church and Some other details about that church that would give our listeners

more interest in visiting even either if they live in the New Haven or East Haven, Connecticut area

or If they're visiting there or have family friends and loved ones near there.

Right, yeah, we're a confessional reform Baptist Church adhering to the London Baptist

Confession 1689.

Those would be our doctrinal standards.

The church Founded I think in the

early 19th to

move in

a more full

to Maintain reformed worship

here to worship

anti -folk.

That's a good mix of people a good range of

ages.

The tree sermons most weeks

preach the whole Council of God.

We've got help.

Well, praise God.

Yes, I remember many years ago.

I've been familiar with your church long before you were the pastor there and it had a different name at

that time.

And the word Fox like the animal was in there and I can't remember what exactly the name was.

Do you recall the original name of the church?

That's going back some years before I came.

I think it may have been previously known as Fox and community chair.

That's it.

That's it.

That's right, yeah.

That was in the days when it was a Congregational challenge Iraq they

had to move in a more form

direction.

And so that's the way we've been going by God's grace ever since.

Well.

If anybody wants to find out more information about grace reform Baptist Church of East Haven,

Connecticut You can go to GRBC ct .org

GRBC for grace reform Baptist Church Ct the abbreviation for Connecticut org

GRBC ct .org and we'll be announcing that later on in the program God

willing.

And We have a tradition here On iron sharpens iron radio

whenever we have a first -time guest.

We have that guest give a summary of their salvation story including the kind of religious atmosphere they

were raised in if any and What kind of providential Circumstances our sovereign Lord

raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them.

So if you could give us your story, yes.

As you can probably tell by my

accent I to believe in parents.

My dad was a.

Supermarket manager and the

market.

London over

spilled vision of London

and so the government at the time began to designate These overspill

towns.

People who didn't have London

overspill

town

my dad helped them

and they began to invite local

minutes, okay.

Wow.

So I had to qualify each week and given

I were a very blessed upbringing at

his level I believed what I heard Believe the Bible was true.

I looked at my parents and they were such good and godly people my dad

especially such a good life to me.

Maybe subconscious time to

start thinking about because

dad began to just immerse myself in worldly things.

I was Very much into football or soccer.

He cut off to that and

Decided I put Christianity off until I was older.

As I got older got into my teenage years more worldly

lifestyle

be involved in nightclub

scene and drugs and late

teenage

years and thinking about University

for a

lifestyle that was

that school is like their reputation for excellent study facilities

those sort of things.

But that wasn't what was

going through my mind as

a teenager.

I was thinking to

the underground right it mad.

Just so I

applied and I

was except around for like

-minded

housing clubs.

I'm sure we passed our exam in here

came around a year I had

opportunity to go and study in the Netherlands.

It was a sort of scholarship program that the college was running.

So I had opportunity to go and study in Utrecht which was something that I was very excited about at the time

because Utrecht was very close to Amsterdam and Amsterdam also had a reputation for being

Quite the party scene a

Utrecht and Spent six months there and

only had seven hours coursework to do each week.

So there's plenty of time to Indulge my lifestyle over there.

Again, I'm going to go into all the details.

Checked I had a

letter postmarked Manchester Andrew who was still back in Manchester.

They may not realize and

I decided on a radical

course of action.

I've started attending the Christian Union and I've become a follower of Christ.

Praise God.

Yeah.

As you can imagine I was pretty sure I'd shrink way to

the

Christ by that

letter.

Need to start thinking

seriously about this was one factor that

was studying American

Literally the Providence.

I had arrived back late after the Easter break and when I got there They told me that the the social studies course that I should

have been I'd need to take another subject and make up the study.

Out look at the credit

points the list of options anthology.

Wow, wow.

He

gave us a

deadwood

fire brimstone sermons and that was the way he

described him and then he gave us sinners in the hands of an angry God and told us to Go away and to write a critique of

this particular sermon.

Few days later. I opened up the anthology and I began to read angry God.

But to that sermon I don't

have

in front of us

to the judgment of God.

And he said something like it's only the mercy of God that keeps them from falling into hell at any one moment.

So I began to think if it's only God's mercy

that's keeping me out of hell.

Why is he keeping me out of hell?

I'm not doing anything.

But there's one point in that sermon that struck me.

It's I think Edwards thought to those who are

in they say something never

planned it this way.

We plan things better in our own mind what we would do.

We tended to escape this place, but God's wrath was too quick for me.

Death outwitted me and When I was saying peace and

safety something in what I

might do

and I began to

realize I needed to become

the first thing I said Would be the

way to be but

failure.

I actually became worse the more I tried to be my relapses

because my

life and came to a head one night.

Just so desperate.

I just cried out aloud in my bedroom with

my dad in the car.

And we've been at my grandfather's funeral and we're driving back and my grandfather's godly, man and

one of the

hymns and

What do you like about that him and he said

well it reminds me it really struck me

to hear that my dad said he was.

And I said what you mean you're a sinner, and he said oh he said sometimes I despair of myself my

sins weigh so heavily on me you trust

in here.

It made perfect sense at that point because I realized there's nothing I could do.

I tried to please him by

an eye diffusically on the dungeon.

Flame with work to

work in my

heart and

hallelujah.

You and I have testimonies that are remarkably similar in many ways and I

can also remember as a young man Just to reveled

in the nightclub scene.

Everything from the heavy metal clubs to the punk rock and new wave clubs,

and I was very serious.

Alcoholic or as the Bible puts it more accurately a drunkard and.

I.

Can remember going through those years.

Always knowing that I would go to hell if I died.

One thing that makes or that separates our testimonies is that

It wasn't a Jonathan Edwards sermon sinners in the hands of an angry God.

But it was one of the true things that I retained in my mind and belief system for

my Catholic upbringing before I was saved was a belief in hell and I

believed in Christ.

Not in a saving way.

I didn't trust in Christ, but I believed in his existence.

I believed he was God and I knew that I needed to repent and

I can Remember thinking just as you did.

Well when I'm older, maybe I will dedicate my life to God and I

viewed my rebellion and my drunkenness and my partying is like a

Man's rite of passage, you know a rite of passage from boyhood to manhood and you know

this is what men are supposed to do and Living as though

I had a promise of a long future on earth ahead of me

and then seeing.

Not not as an eyewitness, but but hearing about people I knew a

Couple who were fairly close friends and others who were just acquaintances who died at very young

ages started to rattle my cage.

God used those things to finally bring me to repentance, but a lot of similarities

there.

And.

There was one other thing that you said that I was going to bring up that I can't remember right now, but

It's a Fascinating story especially since it is ringing so true with me and

and.

So tell us.

About the reformed aspect that you said earlier that you're.

That even as a young child you were being nurtured in the faith and that you were.

Hearing.

The truth from reformed literature.

When did that come.

A personal thing that you embraced in your own life?

Yeah, just to sort of carry on the story a little bit I think that will sort of lead into.

That was the day

of my granddad's funeral the

vacation I'm and

I had to go back to Manchester.

So the old mark when he came back.

So that was navigate a lot of people kind

of had to

to say

some either

secret.

Wow.

Jeff Thomas is a great man.

I've had him on the show many times.

Right.

Yeah, very wise and godly man and

lost quite a

lot of those old friends.

But then Year or

two I will be

charismatic churches.

So I spent the first couple of my company those kind of places.

And so I went back to my dad and asked him if he could recommend the

church.

He thought for me to go and he recommended Chorlton evangelical Church.

Oh

I.

Start to attend there and the moment I walked in and the quietness the reverence the way the minister prayed the way he

Read the scripture.

My dad, of

course

had

a whole library of dr Lloyd -jones books and the Romans commentaries.

And so now that that became a bench and moved

out to London to

take a job I moved from Manchester down to London and worked in local government there.

Started go to the Metropolitan Tabernacle to be the

masters and visiting the bookstore there.

In fact, I just remembered the other thing from your testimony that I was going to mention.

You are at least the third person I heard of.

Who heard?

Jonathan Edwards being explained by a lost person.

A professor who was lost and and even hearing the

description of Edwards from a lost person had a radical effect on the other

individuals lives.

That I.

That I know and one of them that I can specifically remember is my friend Ed Moore who is the pastor of North Shore

Baptist Church In Bayside Queens, it wasn't Hearing Edwards

from his lost professor that brought him or was used of God to bring him to Christianity.

He was already a Christian, but he was an Arminian and he came to embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace

hearing his Non -christian professor in

college.

Teach about Jonathan Edwards just because Jonathan Edwards was a very significant figure

in history, especially New England America and It was a part of

the course that the even a secular professor could not leave out and give an adequate

course on the history of this country and it was this from this Lost man that he came

to embrace the doctrines of grace by beginning to read Edwards for himself.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah the other lecture in the

host Edwards and me

by from the Bible and

from church and here's a desperate man very

Striking stirring hellfire sermons to try to Frighten the people back

into the

church, and I

don't

know if it

had that

well.

When did you realize you were receiving a call from God to enter into pastoral ministry

in London?

Start to attend Childs Hill Baptist Church the pastor there is a man called Gary Brady

well known in the UK.

Maybe not

so well in five years

or so regularly.

Take tracks and speak to people, you know London's a melting pot

fighting just to be able to go know who you'd meet but

just to have opportunity to Give a tract or speak to somebody about the Lord and so

I was doing that

quite often and need some Bible training.

1960 interview that I

didn't know that I

had studied

the Bible and be

leading me in

that direction.

Gary Brady there at Charles Hill asked

about his

seminary in Michigan.

I was thinking might be

Holland in

Michigan

regarding

the core

providentially.

Oh

great.

Well, we have to go to our first break and I know that you are going to realize when we return from the

break that There's a reason I do a two -hour interview typically because time

flies by so fast but we are going to focus on

the main theme of the Conference that's coming up the Mid -Atlantic Reformed Baptist Family Conference

God of Wonders and we're going to be doing so in an obviously in abbreviated fashion just to whet the appetites of

people who are who either are already attending or Didn't even hear about the

conference yet.

And this may instill in them a desire to attend, but if anybody has a question

for Pastor Mark Raines, please send it in quickly because he is only on with us for the first hour of the

program.

The email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA, don't go away.

We're gonna be right back with Pastor Mark Raines right after these messages.

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Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in.

Our guest for the first hour with just about 15 minutes remaining is

Pastor Mark Rains of Grace Reformed Baptist Church of East Haven, Connecticut.

We are addressing the theme God of Wonders, which is also the theme of the

upcoming Mid -Atlantic Reformed Baptist Family Conference.

Why don't you before we get into the theme?

Describe the Mid -Atlantic Reformed Baptist Family Conference where you are going to be preaching.

Right.

You have the Bongiorno Conference Center in

Carlisle.

Yes, I've had one of my pastor's luncheons there.

Sorry, I've had one of my Biannual pastors luncheons there at the

Bongiorno Conference Center.

It's really beautiful.

The view is is absolutely breathtaking.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, I

understand.

A lunchtime three days in

time.

Yeah, I believe there are

pacified.

It's location and the theme the conference is intimated there.

Chris is God of Wonders.

That's based.

Thank you.

Majestic in her always deeds doing wonders

and that's the theme that we're going for.

Those forms of

lockdown.

Could there be them to

have two or three days away and

a nice subject like this about God of the God of Wonders his

Great works his mighty deeds and the way he displays his glory in different areas of life.

God's people to have a time like that.

Praise God.

And it will be from Thursday.

June the 9th through Saturday, June the 11th, and if anybody wants more details, you can go to Grace

Baptist Carlisle and that's spelt c a r l i s le.

Dot -org.

Forward slash mid dash Atlantic dash r B F

C which stands for reform.

Baptist Family Conference Once again is Grace Baptist Carlisle org.

Forward slash Mid dash Atlantic dash r B F C

and Hopefully, I will remember to repeat that later.

Well, tell us exactly what you mean.

It might seem self -explanatory God of Wonders

But if you were to ask certain Charismatic and Pentecostal Christians, they might

define that phrase in a different way than you would.

Tell us what you mean by God of Wonders, which is the major

umbrella theme of the conference with God of Wonders and creation and

providence in the family and salvation as Subcategories, but tell us what you mean

by God of Wonders.

Yeah, we're thinking large entirety works that

the way that he displayed

that

the wonderful works

looking at that is Genesis 1.

They don't want to give away too much but Looking at Genesis 1 saying God's power displayed

create life wonderful

works things that beyond us things

looking at that in Creation and then also the other session too much.

But well

one of

the themes

that you

just mentioned.

Providence is Something that does divide Christians even evangelical

Christians we have I believe.

I.

Amongst the landscape of Christendom.

We have a unique view of the concept of providence.

Because we who are reformed believe every single thing every single thing

that happens in Heaven and on earth and has always happened and will happen

in the future everything is ordained by God himself.

And Providence also has a a

joyful side and a sorrowful side.

But.

Explain to our listeners how God is a God of Wonders and providence

and which really Boils down to in the life of a Christian

not in the life of everybody but in life of a Christian.

Romans 8 28 is so true In regard to providence that all things

work together For the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose.

But if you could just touch on providence as far as the God of Wonders is concerned.

Right, yeah, and Probably that's going to be the the third session that we're going to look at the God of Wonders in that

regard.

And as you say in

Cordon providence is a great

theme for

us to think

about

and you

don't always understand

He's

in

control

of the

same.

Yeah.

There there is nothing that has gotten me through the most sorrowful

moments and seasons in my own life.

Then.

Trusting in God the judge of all the earth doing what

is right and Always doing what is right and the fact that

these sorrowful things Including losing my mother losing

my father in the 1990s losing my preferred precious late

wife in 2010.

The only thing that really got me through mentally surviving that is knowing that these

things were ordained by God.

And.

No matter what I may have done I could never have changed the day or the hour

of the passing of these dear loved ones.

And.

That's interesting.

The thing that's interesting about that is you will very often find Armenians.

And those outside of reformed theology.

Viewing these things the same way, even though it's very inconsistent with their own theological system.

Would you find that the case yourself?

In the language that some of them use yes, although they might take up different positions

on various things when they when it comes to talking about God's own dealings with them in

their life and

their trials

galvanist ultimately

Controlling all things and not them.

So yeah in that sense I

think I mentioned

Jonathan heads

were recognizing that to

be able to relate that to

we face you

yourself.

Now.

Got the God of wonders in salvation.

One of the ways that We who are reformed are at odds with the

rest of Christendom is that We truly believe that

God is the author and finisher of our faith.

We truly believe that it is God who chooses out of

Lost humanity out of all of those all of us who have been made from the same lump of clay

along with the reprobate.

He.

Chooses not because of our goodness not because of anything lovable that is innately Existing within

us, but out of his own good pleasure.

He chooses some of us to receive a heart transplant and change us

and Transform us and make us willing to flee to the cross and.

Don't you think that this is also a great comfort when anyone who's a Christian

loses someone in death?

Where they are very uncertain about the where that person stood in

relationship to God.

It's always going to be a sorrowful season when a loved one

Dies when we are Christians whether they are brothers and sisters in Christ or whether they are

lost, but especially in terms of Losing the ones that we fear are

lost.

Isn't this a great?

Comfort to know that it is God who chooses and it is God the God of wonders.

Who is the one who saves whom he chooses?

It's yeah, that's a wonderful comfort.

Yeah, that's one of the other sessions here.

That's the final session.

So we're going to be looking at Sovereignty and salvation and Looking at

different aspects

grace.

We are dead in our trespass only God in his

mercy in four lives.

And

so there

is you began a good work

in a began He will finish

and

to give

to his son and

entity with that

like it there.

We've all

amen.

We we who

are.

Christians never need to torment ourselves about if I had only

Evangelized that dear friend or loved one one more time if I had only

been a better representation of Christ in that person's life.

If I had done this if I had done that now all of these are duties of ours.

We should not think that they're Inconsequential we should not look at them lightly.

We should be grieved by Our own lives when we

recognize we're lacking in those things but at the end of the day when someone dies that we love

and if they To our knowledge.

We're not believers.

We cannot and should not Torment ourselves over that.

Am I right?

That's right, we

We

do

that

and

speak with

safe

and so

we we

leave it there and

it

will

be accomplished and In the end, he will bring all of his people infallibly to be with

Amen.

And we're out of time brother and I just want to repeat your website for grace reform Baptist Church of East Haven,

Connecticut one more time it is.

Grbc.

Ct .org Grbc ct .org.

Thank you so much pastor rains.

We look forward to you returning to this program in the future for another interview.

Great. Thanks.

I'm young Chris.

Appreciate that.

My pleasure God bless and don't go away folks because we are going to be joined in the second hour by

one of my pastors Simon Omani a grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania who

is going to be addressing the theme of church membership.

Please be patient.

This is the longer than normal break in the middle of the show.

And send in your questions to pastor Omani at Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

We'll be right back after this commercial break.

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As host of iron sharpens iron radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in

Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he

shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

God in spirit and truth.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a God -centered focus.

Reading preaching and hearing the Word of God singing psalms hymns and spiritual songs.

Baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship.

Performed with faith joy and sobriety.

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at GC

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before We introduce my second guest who will be joining us any second now

Simon O'Manny one of two pastors at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

We'll be discussing the theme church membership a Christian's duty and privilege not a mere option.

We just have a couple of very important announcements to make.

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Last but not least If you're not a member of a biblically faithful Christ honoring church

No matter where in the world you live.

I have extensive lists Spanning the globe Where I can recommend a

church to you.

Possibly even within minutes of your own home as I have done with many people including

listeners in Perth, Australia who I was able to Recommend to a fine

Reformed Baptist Church out there.

But there have been many people all over the world who have received church recommendations from

me.

Many of those folks have visited and joined those churches.

So you can be one of them if you are without a biblically faithful church home.

So send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in the question to my Pastor one of my

two pastors at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who is my guest for the final hour?

Simon O'Manny he's going to be discussing church membership a Christians duty and privilege

not a mere option.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back.

The iron sharpens iron radio pastor Simon O'Manny

I am as well, and I hope I don't swell your head brother and

Tempt you into the sin of pride, but I have to tell my listeners that I've been a Christian

Going back to the 1980s and I've been in Christian radio for most of my adult life.

I've heard many pastors preach.

Both.

Excellent and bad and varying spectrums of the Christian faith and

Pastor Simon O'Manny and pastor John Miller at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania are two

of the very finest Preachers I have ever personally heard and I'm not saying that just because I don't

want to be under church discipline or something like.

They are profound and Simon is one of the most

structured and.

And.

Powerful preachers I've ever heard even though he's a young man and and if anybody ever hears about him preaching at a

conference or if they live near Carlisle, Pennsylvania, I strongly urge you

To hear the man preach and you will be edified and blessed.

But tell our listeners about Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania pastor Simon.

Yeah, that's very very kind of you and very gracious of you to say that Chris.

Yeah.

He's been there just about David

Campbell and before David was

was walled shantry.

There were some other Associate

pastors along the way.

But the Lord has been very faithful to the church for many years 51 that the

church in

many ways.

Well, if anybody wants to find out more about Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle go to Grace Baptist Carlisle

org and Carlisle spelled C a r l i s le Grace Baptist

Carlisle org and we will repeat that at the end of the program.

Well, you have one session at the upcoming Mid -Atlantic Reform Baptist

Family conference that is coming up in June.

Pastor Mark Raines who we just had on the program has the majority of the sessions, but tell us about exactly what you will

be Speaking on at the upcoming Mid -Atlantic Reform Baptist Family Conference.

Yeah.

I'm gonna be giving a missionary biography

all people.

Wow.

Yeah, so he of course was a very important missionary of the the early church and you know.

He actually lived in a time that is, you know the the Empire

Rome and there was a lot of uncertainty and people were fearful.

People were fearful of what it would mean for Christianity and and this brother in the Lord

was faithful and his his drive was towards missions and to Preach the gospel.

So I think there's a lot of lessons we can learn from that.

The life and ministry of Patrick and.

The folks just to repeat the Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle Website because

that's where you'll find more information about this upcoming conference.

It is Grace Baptist Church.

I'm sorry Grace Baptist Carlisle.

No church in the in the website Grace Baptist Carlisle org forward slash mid

dash Atlantic dash RBFC.

That's Grace Baptist Carlisle org forward slash mid dash Atlantic dash

RBFC for Reform Baptist Family Conference, and hopefully I'll remember to give that one more repeat at the end.

Well today you have chosen a subject that is a Very

important subject.

It's also a controversial subject even though it shouldn't be.

It's regarding church membership a Christian's duty and privilege not a mere option.

And over the decades I have been a Christian I can't even count the number

of times I have encountered individuals who will say I am NOT a member

of any church because the phrase church membership is not in the Bible

and I am NOT enslaved like Roman Catholics are.

Who believe that the Church of Rome actually? Dispenses salvation.

You cannot have salvation without their church.

I don't believe in any of that so therefore I don't believe in church membership as a Requirement at all if you

like that and you find joy and peace in your own life with that.

That's great, but it's not for me, but this is really not.

It should not be the attitude of a.

Regenerate believer, right?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And I think all of the kind of the objections that you raised I think you know I think in many ways even as we discuss this topic

I think it might even be helpful to it to

fill out really my thing.

But to have this discussion is that I think all Christians should

have a good idea that this

together.

Well, no, that's not how the church began.

The church began with with Christ instituting the church.

Giving the keys of the kingdom to Peter on behalf of the Apostles.

And giving the church what.

Yeah, you know people have different I think

there can be

practical reasons, I think there can be doctrinal reasons.

And there can be reasons that there are people who have been harmed.

Greatly by being in horrible churches or cults or something and they are just

totally Paranoid about putting themselves in a vulnerable position again.

They that

even not being

completely

innocent and it's beyond the scope of our discussion.

You know, there are a host of reasons why people can Feel burned by by the

church and therefore not want to be to be part of the church.

There's other reasons.

I mean for some the myths of the early church, but

it's kind of the idea that.

Well in the early church that there was no structure, you know, there was no real church it was just a you know, kind of believers

just free and natural and debunk that

is just open the book of Acts and.

And there you see that there's church officers.

There's church meetings.

There's voting all of those kind of things.

Yes, and as I said before there are people who say there is no phrase in

the Bible that says.

There is a thing called church membership.

I can even remember it's probably before you were born.

But I think it was in the 1980s here in the United States.

There was a big news item where a woman who

was a member of a congregation in a fellowship of

congregations known as the Church of Christ.

They are also known as being part of the restoration movement of the 19th century

Led by Alexander Campbell, but there are many congregations.

They're not all the same.

They're not identical.

Some people make the mistake of trying to pigeonhole them.

But there are many within that group that do not believe in a

concept of church membership for the very reason I just said.

But there was a woman who Committed adultery she refused to

repent and she sued the church

for publicly exposing her behavior.

Because she was not a member and I can't remember right now if she won or

lost that lawsuit.

But.

Basically, she was saying that they destroyed her reputation even though the things she did actually happened

because they had no business to do that since she was not a member, but That is a basically long

way of saying that this this is a very Simplistic way of determining whether or something is essential

for a Christian just because a phrase like church membership is not in the.

Inspired text.

Am I right.

That that is the objection.

Faulty hermeneutic.

Hermeneutic.

Somebody refers to the way we interpret scripture.

They have this idea that unless there's a specific phrase, you know in the Bible.

Well, therefore, you know the doctrine can't can't be in the Bible.

But that isn't how we interpret scripture.

That interpreted scripture.

Just take for example the doctrine of the Trinity.

You know, we don't have an explicit.

Now, would you say okay.

Go ahead.

I'm sorry.

Oh.

No, no, God.

Oh, I was just gonna say isn't Hebrews 13 17 a key passage

where it really renders a Believer who believes in the inerrancy of

Scripture believes that the Bible is God's own breathed words.

Where we we have the the the writer of Hebrews saying obey your leaders and

Submit to them.

For they keep watch over your souls as those who give an account.

Let them do this with joy and not with grief for this would be unprofitable for you.

But the fact that there is a command here to obey your leaders and it would seem to me that

this is referring to elders in a church because they keep watch over your souls and They'll give an account for

us.

Isn't that a clear example of?

The fact that you would obviously have to be a member To be expected to submit to the leaders of

a local church.

Yeah, absolutely that that

is it.

Who are your leaders.

Leaders.

Pastors.

Elders.

Who are your leaders that you know.

If someone do you submit to

if not, why not where you have you've elders.

You've pastors who you

know.

And they know

you fill

attention

to yourselves and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you

own blood.

I'll just read one other passage that really is Peter

the elders among as God

would have you not for shameful

gain.

But eagerly looking examples so the

the exhortations here from Paul and from Peter that elders are to Shepherds those

Paul uses the language of Overseers.

Peter also uses that language of oversight and here obviously it's a it's an oversight over over a

particular people.

You know elders are not called to shepherd the whole world or or even every Christian in the world.

Who is their duty to.

Peter says not domineering over those in your charge?

We're being examples to the plot.

The elder has the duty to those in his charge.

And the fact that he can be an example implies that the sheep also know who the elders are and so there's this

kind of a you know, you cannot interpret these passages and

Conclude anything other than the fact that the elders know who is in their charge.

I mean if I have a duty to someone Then I know Who that person is

I just just to give an example Chris here.

I have a duty to you.

You know me I'm your elder and I know you as a fellow member of the church of congregate.

But for all of your listeners, maybe people I've never met.

Well, I don't have a duty to shepherd them in the way that I have a duty to shepherd you.

Amen, and as I said at the outset this should not be viewed as

some kind of burden being placed on Christians.

Let's face it.

Believers Especially new believers are rightly to be

viewed as children in many aspects not that That even a new

convert has no knowledge or that the person is juvenile

or infantile in the way they think and behave but There there is a need for

guidance.

There is a need For oversight and to claim that a Christian

does not require this is It's as if They are saying that

children don't require parents as long as they're fed and clothed and given shelter.

It's it's I don't want to exalt the role of an elder too highly in an unbiblical way.

But there is a parallel there, isn't it?

Absolutely, you know Paul and Colossians.

They bring their children to

the job of pastors

are actually committing yourself to a church

the church Institution of the church and and and leaders and

elders that know you.

And that you are accountable to and that they are accountable to you.

I think that is the way that we grow and don't you think.

This is also where you have a danger of.

Extremely large churches that do not have a sufficient number of

truly God -ordained elders.

Men who are truly fulfilling the scriptural requirements for that role in that office to

make sure that.

Every one of those many thousands of people that may be in that church to make sure that they

are truly being shepherded.

Isn't isn't that a common danger that exists today?

I have met many people Who are weekly attending a

megachurch and they have never even met an elder.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah, no exact

pastor was

and and.

You know telling me

that.

Well, we go to

the church

meeting the pastor.

He's on some other

behold I you know when I talk to he's never even met

his pastor.

Wow.

When you when you think about the biblical requirements

as congregants and also.

Yeah, and.

Obviously you say he never even met his pastor.

Well that man really isn't his pastor.

As far as really being a pastor because it is more than just speaking from a pulpit that that

determines what a pastor is.

Why didn't you know in some ways?

It's to see much of a distinction between you know going to a

building and watching a projection projection screen.

As it is just I don't know staying home and going on sermon audio or YouTube or something like that and watching.

Watching your favorite pastor that way.

That's my opinion not now in in this sensitive area where we already.

Stated both of us that there should be an extra measure of

patience and Compassion and kindness.

Not that that shouldn't always be the approach of a Christian But an extra measure of those things

those people that have been truly harmed Having been members of a church.

It might have even been a church that was theologically and doctrinally sound but still

behaved perhaps as a cult and it's in its way of

conducting church discipline and Preserving a unity

and You know Actually

Demonstrating their authority over the congregation they met.

They may have Abused their roles and these people were as you were saying Psychologically

harmed.

Or they might have even been physically harmed.

They might have been sexually abused Whatever the case is or they might have been in a cult.

What words of Counsel and encouragement and comfort can you give to those

people who will say I will never Put myself in a position like that again.

I will never join the church.

I will never become a member of The church.

I will have Bible studies in my home.

I will watch televangelists and listen to Christian radio.

But I will never jeopardize my well -being again by becoming a member of a church.

What would you how would you respond to such people that may be?

Listening right now that

Dave if they've been hurt in some way by

an elder by a pastor

I would also say that

scripture

the Gentiles Jesus talked about that the

millstone right?

So there is there is a real warning and there is an accountability that You

know where the church the Lord see the

Lord old thing.

I would say to an individual.

The other thing

I'd say is that

as many of the challenges the church.

False sons in her pale, you know.

Enemies without enemies within that sort of thing.

Where does it where does it bring us back to it brings us back to his

head?

Of the church and.

So I would encourage an individual to you know, give up on church.

Because of the bad experience and that the hurts and the abuse of an individual.

But you remember that Christ is the head of the church and he Assembles his bride.

The church will always be imperfect.

But there is a day coming when Christ will return and he will Make perfect his pride that

he is is currently sanctifying and preparing.

Amen.

And we have to go to our final break right now.

And if anybody has a question for pastor Simon Send it in as soon as you can because we are rapidly running out of

time.

It's Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

As always give us your first name at least.

Your city and state of residence in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, don't go away.

We'll be right back with pastor Simon O'Manny and more on church membership right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Dr. Moore craft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia.

And I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine

congregation.

For details on the eight -volume commentary go to Westminster commentary calm.

Westminster commentary calm.

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia Visit Heritage Presbyterian

Church calm.

Heritage Presbyterian Church calm.

Please tell dr. Moore craft and the Saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia That dr. Joseph

Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary Century

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in

the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and

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Hi, I'm pastor Bob Waldeman.

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Call in Brook Baptist at 5 1 6 5 9 9 9 4 0 2 that's 5 1 6 5 9 9

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Welcome back.

We have pastor Simon O'Maney on with us for about 10 more minutes.

Pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

We are discussing church membership and we do have.

Arnie and Perry County, Pennsylvania.

Who asks when it boils down to it?

Isn't the main reason why people who claim to be Christians refuse to be members is a

matter of pride?

They don't think that they need teachers.

They think they have enough wisdom intelligence and understanding of the Bible and that they're holy

enough.

Where a teacher or a shepherd are not required, you know,

you know, I I would say

can be

immature Christian

maybe

needs.

They need they need some shepherding and they need some counsel and they need.

Well, thank you

Arnie.

We have.

Bobby in Hartsdale, New York.

And Bobby says in my experience There are also many people

who bounce around from church to church and never submit themselves To any of them nor

become members of any of them.

Is due to nitpicking.

Unless a church agrees with them on every single issue They will move along to the next

church.

Isn't that also a bit arrogant?

Yeah, they're publicly but you know

every job and tittle and so, you know,

even as the

pastor there's

you know.

And so it's an awareness that you'll never find the perfect church.

And if you do as they say don't don't join us.

It won't be perfect for long, right.

Exactly.

And as Groucho Marx once said I will never become a Member of a club that

would have me as a member.

Exactly.

Playing on the sort of objection that well, well, I wouldn't join a church because they're all a bunch of integrates.

It was cost grace and we need you know, we need the gospel and.

You have people in that category who are nitpickers who the as the

listener Included in that question About arrogance

being a part of it.

The person is arrogant to think that they have Finally arrived

at Understanding everything completely and perfectly now as if they know with certainty

All of those things that they're nitpicking about.

They know with certainty they they're on the right side of those issues, but also being a member of a church.

You contribute to the church and I'm not just talking about the financial offering.

You contribute to the church with your own voice and having fellowship and meeting privately with

elders when it's a Matter of teaching or practice that you may disagree with and you never know if you

are truly on The biblical side of an issue.

You never know what what may occur in that church.

In fact, I know of two circumstances Where I wasn't member a

member of these churches, but they were churches pastored by friends.

One of them had altar calls and.

I.

I've just very Graciously as I could and lovingly during a private time of

fellowship Informed that pastor That I that I

believed it was an unbiblical practice wasn't even in existence until the 19th century.

And that church changed their view after further study on that and

another church.

This is more of a matter of preference.

It's not because there's a God -breathed order of worship or liturgy that

that, you know, we have to follow these things in lockstep but

I Remember I visited another church that was pastored by a friend when the very last thing that they

did After the sermon was preached is They had a collection

and I just told them do you think that's the best thing or the best time?

To be passing a plate around when people should be really contemplating on Eternal

issues that they just heard and That church changed they they had the the

collection moved to near the beginning of the service.

So and if I was a member any of those churches, I Probably would have had even more

of an impact on them.

So Am I making sense here that people have to also Take into consideration

the the the knowledge that they can share with a church

Not to be arrogant about that, but that just because the church isn't Conducting

themselves in every single way according to their preferences or according to what they think the Bible

teaches.

There's still hope when you become a member of such a church.

Just as you're talking there, you know, it makes me think of Paul's languages of the body.

You know, he in

Quarantine

chapter 12 of

the body so many are one body.

So the

body does not consist of one member but many.

Paul goes on to kind of ridicule the idea that you know.

One body part like a foot can just kind of it needs the rest of the body.

Okay, you know and

that's even more

you can impact

now.

What would you think in in summary before we close are

the.

Essential elements that should be present in a church before we

Request membership I have said on this program.

I always look For Reformed Baptist churches when people

contact me Requesting a church recommendation because people daily

in my audience from all over the world Contact me asking for church

recommendations near them and I first try to find confessional Reformed Baptist churches.

But I know that if I was not blessed to live in an area where a church like Grace

Baptist Church of Carlisle existed I would even consider

Joining an Arminian Church as long as I knew that most of what was taught and done there

was biblical and Even if there was a Reformed Church nearby that was

notorious for having a tyrannical.

Authoritarian.

Leadership I might even.

Prefer to be a member of a church.

That wasn't quite what I was hoping for.

But was willing to make exceptions just because I know the importance of being in a member

of a Christ -honoring Church and not and if I knew that the pastors of the reform of the non -reformed Church

were godly humble shepherds that were biblically literate and and

Just behaved and lived as true true under shepherds.

Am I making sense here?

Yeah, I think I

would I would do

your doctrine of stuff, you know that no

first and foremost, you know I would recommend it on

their website, you know.

It's something I'd

recommend and find

out and you

know.

He might be might tell you a lot more than what you might get from from

a website or amen.

And having said what I said, I also am very often grieved

by the Behavior of some professing reformed

Christians who claim they Strongly agree with a reformed

confession like the 1689 and yet they will prefer to join.

A.

Non -reformed Church or a Church with substandard Teaching just because

they've got a lot of wonderful programs and a choir that could rival a Broadway musical

and all those things.

Where they're preferring?

Aesthetic things and things that are pleasing to the eye and ear and things that

involve ways their children can have glorified babysitting going on.

This is also a negative as in regard to joining a church, isn't

it?

Think about the church members of.

We need to look beyond even the aesthetics, you know.

Maybe the best church that meets in this building that kind of

smells a little bit moldy and you know.

You know I'm saying it's it's I think so often we look at the big and the grand and we have this

theology of glory.

And we think that's that's what I need.

That's where my when you read the pastoral epistles.

What does Paul tell him what

we need for above all faithful?

Beyond the kind of Aesthetics that can so often be so pleasing to us.

Well, we are out of time.

It was such a joy brother to have you back on the program after a long absence.

I look forward to you and pastor John Miller returning to my program.

I want to remind our listeners Don't forget about the conference.

We have been discussing Thursday, June 9th through Saturday, June 11th,

and that is in Carlisle, Pennsylvania at the Bon Giorno Conference Center Where my first

guest Mark Raines will be the primary speaker and my second guest pastor Simon

O'Maney will have a message on the life and legacy of st. Patrick and.

From all those details go to grace baptist carlisle org.

Grace baptist carlisle org forward slash mid dash Atlantic dash

RBFC.

That's grace baptist carlisle org forward slash mid dash Atlantic

dash RBFC.

Thank you so much pastor O'Maney for doing such a superb job today.

I want to thank everybody who listened and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives That Jesus Christ

is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.