When To Leave a Church? (John MacArthur & RC Sproul)

Hello and thank you for listening to the Testing the Spirits podcast.

Today we're going to be answering the question, when should you leave a church?

There does come a time where a person or a family should leave their local church, but you want to make

sure you're not just leaving for any reason or for little reasons.

A lot of people today will leave a church because somebody offended them, somebody said something

or maybe they're just not feeling it anymore or the reason, it's a little thing.

It may not seem little to them, but it really isn't a valid reason to leave a church

because you don't want to do that.

If you leave a church and you go somewhere else because there's these little problems, you're probably going to find the little

problems at the next place and then the next place and then people become, you know, church hoppers and we want to try to

avoid that.

So if you're going to leave a church, it should be for a good reason.

So we're going to talk about what are some of the good reasons in a moment.

First of all, there's no Bible verses that really address this because in the first century, if a city had

a local church at all, there was only one option.

So there's the church in Jerusalem, the church at Antioch, the church in Ephesus, right?

There's only one option, so you can't really leave.

You can't go from first Baptist down the road to second Baptist.

That just wasn't available.

Today though, there are options.

So back then, the point is you're not going to find any passages of the Bible talking about it, but today we do

want to discuss when you should leave your local church.

So before we get into the reasons, people, like I said, they leave for all sorts of reasons.

They're just not feeling the excitement.

Some people are chasing after something and they never really find it.

So if they leave one place, yeah, this problem of feeling unfulfilled or whatever it is can

often follow them to the next place and the next place and before you know it, they're discouraged and they just give up.

Or some people are looking for the ideal church or the perfect church and the reality is the perfect church doesn't

exist.

And if it did, you would ruin it by joining it because you're imperfect.

Like churches are full of people, so there's going to be some problems.

But when do the problems rise to the level of like, okay, we need to get out of here.

There does come a time for that.

So let's talk about what makes a church a true church.

Because first of all, you want to make sure you're in a true, valid New Testament church.

The Protestant reformers came up with three marks of a local church.

So this is what makes a church a valid New Testament church.

I would add a fourth thing.

I would say, number one, Jesus has to be the head of the church.

First of all, if the Pope is the head of your church or, you know, the Church of England, I just

read an article where the Church of England wants to drop the word church from their name because they want to

remain modern and relevant.

So they're getting rid of the word church, at least for some of their new church plants.

I mean, that's outrageous.

If you're trying to run away from the word church, you know, that's a red flag.

And besides, the head of the Church of England is King Charles, and, you know, the man is,

he's not even a believer.

So if the person who is the head of your church, you know, it's like a, it's a man

who's running everything and he's not being obedient to Christ, or if, you know,

God forbid someone's in some sort of cult group where it's just, you know, this leader, he's the

dictator and he claims to hear directly from God and it's just his word is the final say,

that's not a valid New Testament church because Jesus has to be the head.

So the leadership needs to follow the commands of Christ.

And with these other institutions, they're really following the traditions of men.

So number one, Jesus must be the head of the church.

That means the leader.

So the pastor and the deacons or the elders, depending on what type of leadership structure you have, the

church leadership needs to be obedient to Christ.

They don't have to be perfect, but they need to be following Christ's commandments and

carrying out his orders.

So that's number one.

Jesus needs to be the head of the church.

The gospel, number two, has to be preached.

I mean, this is sort of the most obvious thing.

I think every Christian would agree with this.

For a church to be a true church, the gospel must be preached.

If a false gospel is being preached, maybe the social gospel, social justice, or maybe

it's the prosperity gospel.

You need to get out of there if a false gospel is being preached.

So the true gospel of Christ, crucified and risen, this is first Corinthians 15, one

through four, the true gospel must be preached.

The next thing, the ordinances must be administered.

So this is baptism and the Lord's supper.

Some people call them the sacraments, but we would call them an ordinance.

This is what Jesus ordained.

Remember with the Lord's supper, he said, do this in remembrance of me.

This isn't really an issue because just about every church, maybe with the exception of the Salvation Army,

every church is going to practice and administer the ordinances.

So that's probably not going to be a big issue, but that is part of what makes a

church a true church.

So Jesus is the head, the gospel is preached, the ordinances are administered, and then the final mark

of a true church, church discipline is practiced.

And you say, well, why would that be essential?

Well, first of all, remember, go back to the first thing, Jesus is the head.

So the leadership need to be carrying out what Jesus commanded.

And Jesus said in Matthew 18, if a person is in sin, because this is one of the

biggest reasons to leave a church, if the leadership is corrupt, if there's gross

immorality going on in the church, and it's all being swept under the rug.

Remember the clergy sex abuse scandal in the early 2000s where the Catholic Church, I mean, they're teaching a

false gospel anyways, but the bishops were moving around these priests to

parish to parish, and they were abusing kids, and it was all being swept under the.

Rug.

I mean, stuff can happen in Protestant churches too, Evangelical churches, where there is corruption and abuse, and it's

all just being ignored, and that's a reason to leave.

But also with church discipline, because sometimes, yeah, the leaders don't want to deal with the

problems.

This is another big reason to leave when there is a toxic environment.

So usually, it's been my experience, that will be due to one family in particular,

or maybe two families that are fighting for control of the church, or it's just a handful of people

that turn the environment, the church environment, into a toxic environment.

Well, you should leave, because how did it get that bad?

Because the leadership won't practice discipline.

They're not protecting the flock.

They're just allowing these people to just kind of run wild with their bad behavior.

That is a reason to leave a local church.

It's one of the most common things that you'll find.

So, church discipline is necessary.

I mean, you consider that if you go to school, kids can be suspended or

expelled.

If you go to work, people can be fired.

Even politicians can be impeached and removed from office.

So there has to be some process to get rid of the troublemakers, because again, just my

experience, this is one of the big reasons why people do leave churches and why you in fact should

leave a church if there is a toxic environment or there's gross immorality or corruption or

something going on that's just not being addressed.

So yeah, if the leadership is corrupt, if they're not obeying Christ, if there's a false gospel being

preached, if the ordinances are not being administered, if church discipline is not

practiced, these are reasons to leave a local church.

Okay, so let's play a video here.

This is John MacArthur and Dr. R .C. Sproul.

They are talking about this very question, and they give some good advice.

So let's hear what they have to say.

Dr. Sproul Here's a practical question, although they're all practical.

If you're in a position of leadership in a church that preaches man -centered sermons

or shallow sermons, is it okay to leave that church, even though you

have a sort of influence among the congregation?

This is a question we get all the time.

When is it okay to leave a church, or when is it necessary to leave a church?

Sometimes it's necessary.

Sometimes it's not necessary, but okay.

Sometimes it's not okay.

How do you counsel people about that?

Dr. Sproul The first thing I tell people about is the seven churches of Revelation.

If you happen to live in Laodicea, there was only one church.

You happen to live in Sardis, there was only one church.

If you lived in Pergamos and Smyrna, there was one church.

And our Lord commends those in those churches that had some deep

problems, so deep that He even told them if they continued in the direction they were going, He would disown.

Them.

But He commends those who haven't soiled their garments.

I think you have to look at your options, and if you're in a situation where there are problems

and issues, but you don't really have an alternative, I think there's understanding with the Lord with regard to that,

and there may be some good done and accomplished.

But if you have an option and an alternative to go from a church that dishonors the Lord to a church that

honors the Lord, I don't think that's a tough decision.

I think you need to go where the gospel is proclaimed.

Christ is exalted where church is really functioning in a biblical way.

If you have that option, I encourage people, speak to the leadership, go

directly to the leadership, express your concerns, see if there's any interest in change or

repentance.

I don't think you want to tear the thing to shreds.

I don't think there's any virtue in that.

That sort of unsays everything that you're trying to say about doing things that honor the Lord.

I think you have to, you know, maybe God will write Ichabod on the church.

Maybe the Lord will fight against that church, but that's His battle to fight, not yours.

But I do think you are, as a believer, responsible for your own spiritual development and growth, and

you need to put yourself in the place where that is maximally going to happen.

And I think if you have alternatives, you need to take those alternatives.

Sproul, Jr.: I agree with that.

I mean, you know, often people leave over trivial matters, and they shouldn't, because there's this community that's a

covenant community that you're in, and you don't leave over every peccadilla.

But if your soul is in jeopardy, and your family's, you've got to

run for your life.

Sproul, Jr.: And that's a good point that you make.

People leave for the most ridiculous, stupid reasons.

First of all, they don't want to join a church to start with.

I am a strong advocate of church membership.

That's a real battle today.

You understand that.

Most… many of these independent churches, take the whole Calvary Chapel movement, they don't believe in doctrinal statements or church membership,

or church boards.

People are just floating in and floating out.

You don't have any real identification.

You don't know who you're shepherding.

We deal with that all the time, because we practice church discipline.

So the question always comes up, this person is a member of the church.

Who are these non -member people that float in and out, and what is exactly our responsibility toward

them?

People want to consider all their options.

Like you said, you put on somebody's playlist, and you'll find out what church they go to by the music.

I wish that God would just shut the music down for about six months, and then we'd find out who went where,

and the truth would really be revealed as to what people are after.

But I do think there's just way too much of this personal offense stuff,

or it isn't the style I like, and people migrating around to their own spiritual detriment.

Okay, so hopefully that was helpful.

If you have any questions, you can reach out to me, morscornerchurch .com, or leave a comment.

I'd be happy to try and help.

Obviously, if there's heresy being taught, you need to leave.

And if there's some situation, like you get to drive an hour and a half to your church, and then a good church opened up five

minutes down the road, yeah, talk to your pastor.

He would understand that.

And that's one thing I do need to say.

If you're going to leave, you need to talk to the pastor.

You need to talk to the leadership.

Don't just disappear.

I mean, don't be that guy.

Even in the workplace, people have the common courtesy and respect of putting in their two -week.

Notice.

So if you are going to leave, talk to the leadership.

And just to end on this point, MacArthur said something about people not wanting to

commit.

They don't even want to join a church, or maybe they don't want to officially join a.

Church.

And I think there are a lot of people, they don't feel like they're really getting anything.

Out of it.

They're feeling unfulfilled.

It's some sort of feeling, they're just, there's something not there, and they don't want to commit because they're just,

they got one foot out the door.

Here's the thing.

What you get out of it will depend on what you put into it.

Are you invested?

My advice would be, give it a shot.

Put it to the test.

This will work.

Become a faithful, loving, giving, serving member

of a local church.

Here's the thing.

Here's what Kennedy said about the country.

Don't ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.

It's about serving God.

This is what church is about, worshiping the Lord, serving the Lord, and Jesus isn't

here, so we mainly serve Him by serving His people.

So invest in others.

Invest in the church.

And when you do that, you get the focus on Him, on Christ, and His

people.

You know, that's where you really start to realize, hey, church isn't just something I do, you

know, once a week.

It's really part of my life, and that's when, you know, you really start feeling

part of the body, part of the family of God.

You feel fulfilled.

You have that joy, and the more you stay connected, you know, you're going to have your ups and.

Downs.

There's going to be problems.

People have problems, but faithfulness is really what it's all about.

So let's be faithful to the Lord and to His church.

Amen?

Alright, thanks for listening.

And until next time, may the Lord be with you.

Have a great day.