When To Leave a Church? (John MacArthur & RC Sproul)

Moore's Corner Church

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:03

Hello, and thank you for listening to the

00:11

Testing the Spirits podcast. Today we're going to be answering the question, when should you leave a church?

00:16

There does come a time where a person or a family should leave their local church, but you want to make sure you're not just leaving for any reason or for little reasons.

00:27

A lot of people today will leave a church because somebody offended them, somebody said something, or maybe they're just not feeling it anymore, or the reason, it's a little thing.

00:39

It may not seem little to them, but it really isn't a valid reason to leave a church, because you don't want to do that.

00:47

If you leave a church and you go somewhere else because there's these little problems, you're probably going to find the little problems at the next place, and then the next place, and then people become church hoppers, and we want to try to avoid that.

00:59

If you're going to leave a church, it should be for a good reason. We're going to talk about what are some of the good reasons in a moment.

01:07

First of all, there's no Bible verses that really address this, because in the 1st century, if a city had a local church at all, there was only one option.

01:17

There's the church in Jerusalem, the church at Antioch, the church in Ephesus.

01:22

There's only one option, so you can't really leave. You can't go from 1st

01:27

Baptist down the road to 2nd Baptist. That just wasn't available. Today, though, there are options.

01:34

Back then, the point is you're not going to find any passages of the Bible talking about it, but today we do want to discuss when you should leave your local church.

01:44

Before we get into the reasons, people, like I said, they leave for all sorts of reasons.

01:50

They're just not feeling the excitement. Some people are chasing after something and they never really find it, so if they leave one place, this problem of feeling unfulfilled, or whatever it is, can often follow them to the next place and the next place, and before you know it, they're discouraged and they just give up.

02:08

Some people are looking for the ideal church or the perfect church, and the reality is the perfect church doesn't exist.

02:15

If it did, you would ruin it by joining it because you're imperfect. Churches are full of people, so there's going to be some problems, but when do the problems rise to the level of, like, okay, we need to get out of here?

02:29

There does come a time for that. Let's talk about what makes a church a true church because, first of all, you want to make sure you're in a true, valid New Testament church.

02:41

The Protestant Reformers came up with three marks of a local church, so this is what makes a church a valid New Testament church.

02:50

I would add a fourth thing. I would say, number one, Jesus has to be the head of the church. First of all, if the

02:57

Pope is the head of your church, or, you know, the Church of England, I just read an article where the

03:03

Church of England wants to drop the word church from their name because they want to remain modern and relevant, so they're getting rid of the word church, at least for some of their new church plants.

03:15

I mean, that's outrageous. If you're trying to run away from the word church, you know, that's a red flag, and besides, the head of the

03:22

Church of England is King Charles, and, you know, the man is, he's not even a believer, so if the person who is the head of your church, you know, it's a man who's running everything, and he's not being obedient to Christ, or if, you know,

03:41

God forbid someone's in some sort of cult group where it's just, you know, this leader, he's the dictator, and he claims to hear directly from God, and it's just his word is the final say.

03:52

That's not a valid New Testament church because Jesus has to be the head, so the leadership needs to follow the commands of Christ, and with these other institutions, they're really following the traditions of men.

04:05

So number one, Jesus must be the head of the church. That means the leader, so the pastor and the deacons or the elders, depending on what type of leadership structure you have, the church leadership needs to be obedient to Christ.

04:20

They don't have to be perfect, but they need to be following Christ's commandments and carrying out

04:27

His orders, so that's number one. Jesus needs to be the head of the church. The gospel, number two, has to be preached.

04:33

I mean, this is sort of the most obvious thing. I think every Christian would agree with this. For a church to be a true church, the gospel must be preached.

04:42

If a false gospel is being preached, maybe the social gospel, you know, social justice, or maybe it's the prosperity gospel.

04:51

You need to get out of there if a false gospel is being preached, so the true gospel of Christ crucified and risen, this is 1

04:58

Corinthians 15, 1 through 4, the true gospel must be preached. The next thing, the ordinances must be administered, so this is baptism and the

05:09

Lord's Supper. Some people call them the sacraments, but we would call them an ordinance.

05:15

This is what Jesus ordained. Remember with the Lord's Supper, He said, do this in remembrance of me.

05:22

This isn't really an issue because just about every church, maybe with the exception of the

05:27

Salvation Army, every church is going to practice and administer the ordinances, so that's probably not going to be a big issue, but that is part of what makes a church a true church.

05:40

So Jesus is the head, the gospel is preached, the ordinances are administered, and then the final mark of a true church, church discipline, is practiced, and you say, well, why would that be essential?

05:53

Well, first of all, remember, go back to the first thing, Jesus is the head, so the leadership need to be carrying out what

06:00

Jesus commanded, and Jesus said in Matthew 18, if a person is in sin, because this is one of the biggest reasons to leave a church, if the leadership is corrupt, if there's gross immorality going on in the church, and it's all being swept under the rug.

06:18

Remember the clergy sex abuse scandal in the early 2000s where the Catholic Church, I mean, they're teaching a false gospel anyways, but the bishops were moving around these priests to parish to parish, and they were abusing kids, and it was all being swept under the rug.

06:34

I mean, stuff can happen in Protestant churches too, Evangelical churches, where there is corruption and abuse, and it's all just being ignored, and that's a reason to leave.

06:44

But also, with church discipline, because sometimes, yeah, the leaders don't want to deal with the problems.

06:50

This is another big reason to leave, when there is a toxic environment. So usually, it's been my experience, that will be due to one family in particular, or maybe two families that are fighting for control of the church, or it's just a handful of people that turn the environment, the church environment, into a toxic environment.

07:12

Well, you should leave, because how did it get that bad? Because the leadership won't practice discipline.

07:19

They're not protecting the flock. They're just allowing these people to just kind of run wild with their bad behavior.

07:26

That is a reason to leave a local church. It's one of the most common things that you'll find.

07:31

So church discipline is necessary. I mean, you consider that if you go to school, kids can be suspended or expelled.

07:41

If you go to work, people can be fired. Even politicians can be impeached and removed from office.

07:48

So there has to be some process to get rid of the troublemakers, because again, just my experience, this is one of the big reasons why people do leave churches and why you, in fact, should leave a church if there is a toxic environment, or there's gross immorality or corruption or something going on that's just not being addressed.

08:09

So yeah, if the leadership is corrupt, if they're not obeying Christ, if there is a false gospel being preached, if the ordinances are not being administered, if church discipline is not practiced, these are reasons to leave a local church.

08:25

Okay, so let's play a video here. This is John MacArthur and Dr. R .C.

08:31

Sproul. They are talking about this very question, and they give some good advice.

08:37

So let's hear what they have to say. Here's a practical question, although they're all practical.

08:43

If you're in a position of leadership in a church that preaches man -centered sermons or shallow sermons, is it okay to leave that church even though you have a sort of influence among the congregation?

09:00

This is a question we get all the time. When is it okay to leave a church, or when is it necessary to leave a church?

09:07

Sometimes it's necessary. Sometimes it's not necessary but okay. Sometimes it's not okay.

09:14

How do you counsel people about that? The first thing

09:19

I tell people about is the seven churches of Revelation. If you happen to live in Laodicea, there was only one church.

09:28

You happen to live in Sardis, there was only one church. If you lived in Pergamos and Smyrna, there was one church.

09:34

And our Lord commends those in those churches that had some deep problems, so deep that He even told them if they continued in the direction they were going,

09:44

He would disown them. But He commends those who haven't soiled their garments. I think you have to look at your options, and if you're in a situation where there are problems and issues but you don't really have an alternative,

09:59

I think there's understanding with the Lord with regard to that, and there may be some good done and accomplished.

10:06

But if you have an option and an alternative to go from a church that dishonors the Lord to a church that honors the

10:12

Lord, I don't think that's a tough decision. I think you need to go where the gospel is proclaimed, Christ is exalted, where church is really functioning in a biblical way if you have that option.

10:25

I encourage people, speak to the leadership, go directly to the leadership, express your concerns, see if there's any interest in change or repentance.

10:36

I don't think you want to tear the thing to shreds. I don't think there's any virtue in that.

10:43

That sort of unsays everything that you're trying to say about doing things that honor the Lord. I think you have to, you know, maybe

10:50

God will write Ichabod on the church. Maybe the Lord will fight against that church, but that's His battle to fight, not yours.

10:56

But I do think you are, as a believer, responsible for your own spiritual development and growth, and you need to put yourself in the place where that is maximally going to happen.

11:08

And I think if you have alternatives, you need to take those alternatives. Sproul, Jr.

11:13

I agree with that. I mean, you know, often people leave over trivial matters, and they shouldn't because there's this community that's a covenant community that you're in, and you don't leave over every peccadilla.

11:25

But if your soul is in jeopardy, and your family's, you've got to run for your life.

11:33

And that's a good point that you make. People leave for the most ridiculous, stupid reasons.

11:39

First of all, they don't want to join a church to start with. I am a strong advocate of church membership. That's a real battle today.

11:46

You understand that. Many of these independent churches, take the whole Calvary Chapel movement, they don't believe in doctrinal statements or church membership.

11:53

Or church boards, people who are just floating in and floating out, you don't have any real identification.

12:00

You don't know who you're shepherding. We deal with that all the time because we practice church discipline.

12:06

So the question always comes up, this person is a member of the church. Who are these non -member people that float in and out, and what is exactly our responsibility toward them?

12:16

People want to consider all their options. Like you said, you put on somebody's playlist, and you'll find out what church they go to by the music they like.

12:23

I wish that God would just shut the music down for about six months, and then we'd find out who went where, and the truth would really be revealed as to what people are after.

12:35

But I do think there's just way too much of this personal offense stuff, or it isn't the style

12:42

I like, and people migrating around to their own spiritual detriment. Okay, so hopefully that was helpful.

12:49

If you have any questions, you can reach out to me, morriscornerchurch .com, or leave a comment.

12:55

I'd be happy to try and help. Obviously, if there's heresy being taught, you need to leave.

13:00

And if there's some situation, like you get a drive an hour and a half to your church, and then a good church opened up five minutes down the road, yeah, talk to your pastor.

13:09

He would understand that. And that's one thing I do need to say. If you're going to leave, you need to talk to the pastor.

13:15

You need to talk to the leadership. Don't just disappear. I mean, don't be that guy. Even in the workplace, people have the common courtesy and respect of putting in their two -week notice.

13:27

So if you are going to leave, talk to the leadership. And just to end on this point,

13:34

MacArthur said something about people not wanting to commit. They don't even want to join a church, or maybe they don't want to officially join a church.

13:43

And I think there are a lot of people, they don't feel like they're really getting anything out of it. They're feeling unfulfilled.

13:49

It's some sort of feeling, they're just, there's something not there, and they don't want to commit because they're just, they got one foot out the door.

13:57

Here's the thing. What you get out of it will depend on what you put into it.

14:04

Are you invested? My advice would be, you know, give it a shot. Put it to the test.

14:10

This will work. Become a faithful, loving, giving, serving member of a local church.

14:19

Here's the thing. Here's what Kennedy said about the country. Don't ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.

14:26

It's about serving God. This is what church is about. Worshipping the Lord, serving the

14:31

Lord, and Jesus isn't here, so we mainly serve Him by serving

14:37

His people. So invest in others. Invest in the church.

14:43

And when you do that, you get the focus on Him, on Christ and His people.

14:50

You know, that's where you really start to realize, hey, church isn't just something I do, you know, once a week.

14:57

It's really part of my life, and that's when, you know, you really start feeling part of the body, part of the family of God.

15:06

You feel fulfilled. You have that joy. And the more you stay connected, you know, you're going to have your ups and downs.

15:12

There's going to be problems. People have problems. But faithfulness is really what it's all about.

15:19

So let's be faithful to the Lord and to His church. Amen? All right. Thanks for listening, and until next time, may the