Sexual Ethics - Fornication, Adultery, Polyamory

Sovereign Grace Family Church

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September 11, 2023

00:00: Again, and if anybody shows up, they show up.
00:02: We got only a few here tonight.
00:03: I hope we have some more joining us online.
00:06: And I think that we do.
00:08: But if not, that's okay, too.
00:11: This past week you should have taken your quiz.
00:16: And if you had difficulty I was talking to one of our in class students.
00:24: If if you had difficulty and you have a question, you can always email me and we can discuss if there's a discrepancy on the exam, and I will go in and fix it.
00:36: So that was our last quiz before the final.
00:42: We have this week, next week, and then the last class.
00:46: And at the last class, there will be a final given out.
00:49: I'm not sure how many questions are going to be on it yet.
00:51: I'm still working on it.
00:52: Last class, it was 50 questions probably will be commensurate to that, but may not be exact.
00:59: This class, I'm finding that this class is harder to write questions for.
01:05: Because I want to ask things like, you know, explain to me how you would answer this question.
01:12: The problem is it's hard to do on a digital test that you know, usually it's either multiple question, multiple choice or true false.
01:18: So it may end up being that on the last, on the final, there may be a couple of essay questions that I have to grade manually.
01:27: I'm working on that still.
01:28: That's one thing I haven't done yet.
01:30: But there is a way for the test for you to make like one question an essay question.
01:34: And then you don't get your final grade until I go in and read it and give a grade to that essay question.
01:40: So that may end up being how it is.
01:42: Just keep your eye out for that one.
01:44: Another thing that should be happening right now is you should be thinking about class eight.
01:50: Because class eight is a is a student choice class, meaning you get to present ethical dilemmas.
02:01: And we talk about them in class.
02:03: So I've already had two students because I mentioned it last week.
02:08: I've had two students send in their thing they want to talk about.
02:12: I'm asking everyone to have those to me by week seven, which means next week, that way I have a week to compile everything and to create at least get get us started with some answers.
02:24: And it's all about conversation.
02:26: I hope we have a few more people on class eight.
02:28: Because I'm going to, we're going to go through if you remember the very first class, I gave you a a handout for making ethical decisions and had like gather the facts, do this, do this, like the seven steps.
02:43: I want to go through that for the various things.
02:46: So like one of the one of the dilemmas that was asked was the dilemma of not a dilemma but the question of should military service be mandatory? That was a that was one of the things that we could discuss as an ethical question, right? Because some countries do it, some countries don't our country, sort of half does it with the with the selective service.
03:09: But right now, it's an all volunteer service should men be forced to go should women be forced to go? Those are some of the questions we're going to address in that final class.
03:18: And so I want each of you to pick one or two, you can hand in more than one.
03:22: Just know that, you know, the more we have, the less we'll get to do for each one.
03:26: But I do want to go over as many as we can.
03:28: And they're not necessarily theological questions.
03:31: They're ethical questions, even though there may have some theology behind them.
03:36: Just keep that in mind.
03:38: You know, it's it's dealing with specific ethical dilemmas.
03:42: So we have looked at so far, three different categories of ethics.
03:49: We have looked at number one, we looked at life ethics, which was week three, we looked at abortion, reproduction and genetics.
03:59: And week four, we looked at death ethics with and that was brother Bert who taught suicide, euthanasia and capital punishment.
04:09: Last week, we looked at war ethics, which dealt with pacifism, just war theory and personal protection and defense.
04:19: And tonight we are going to look at sexual ethics.
04:24: We're going to look at these categories, marriage and divorce, fornication, adultery, and polyamory.
04:34: And we are going to look at alternative lifestyle issues.
04:38: Now, I do not prefer the term alternative lifestyle, because I think that sort of sanctifies sinful lifestyles.
04:47: But I use that term only because that is commensurate with how it is talked about in the public square as alternative lifestyle.
04:56: So that that is why I use that term, I may eventually scrap that and try to find a better term.
05:03: But if anyone wants to take issue with me, I'm not endorsing the term alternative lifestyle, I'm simply using it because it is commensurate with the with the language of the day.
05:16: So that being said, let's begin with a word of prayer.
05:21: Father, I thank you for the few that are here tonight.
05:23: And I'm thankful that they have a desire to study your word and study the truth of what your word says to us about how we ought to behave.
05:33: And Lord, we know we live in a world that is plagued by sin and under the curse of sin.
05:38: And so we have to struggle with sinful behaviors, not only in others, but also in ourselves.
05:43: So I pray, oh God, that we would be gracious and how we seek to answer ethical dilemmas knowing Lord that we to struggle with our own battles.
05:53: But yet at the same time, Lord, let us hold firm to the truth of the word.
05:57: Even where there are difficulties, let us not shy away from saying what is true, holding true to what is are holding fast to what is true and, and fleeing from what is evil.
06:11: We pray this in Jesus name and for his sake.
06:14: Amen.
06:17: All right.
06:18: Uh, brother, if you want to, if you would close that that door, we are going to begin tonight with a subject that certainly causes no, no debate.
06:37: He said with tongue in cheek, there's certainly no debate over the subject of marriage and divorce.
06:45: Ha ha.
06:48: Well, actually, my notes say different.
06:50: This is what my notes say there is likely not a more difficult subject to discuss among professing believers than the subject of marriage and divorce.
06:58: Often people have very strong opinions about the subject yet just as often these positions are not subjected to scripture, but rather come from our own experiences.
07:12: Well, people are often molded by their experiences and they tend to mold scripture to their experience rather than seeking to be conformed to the scripture.
07:22: We often base our opinions on the experiences we have and seek to interpret the scripture in light of our experience.
07:30: That's called experiential eisegesis.
07:33: And people do it all the time, reading into the text, something that goes along with their experience.
07:39: I want to begin by saying that there is a diversity of opinion on the subject of marriage and divorce, but just because there is a diversity of opinion does not mean that there is a diversity of right and wrong.
07:54: There is one right answer and many wrong answers.
07:57: The problem is finding out what that is.
07:59: God does not hold a diverse opinion.
08:03: He knows what is correct and ethics.
08:05: Our goal is to try to determine God's view on a matter, but sometimes it is difficult, especially when godly men stand at odds on different things.
08:16: So this becomes rather difficult.
08:19: Under the subject of marriage and divorce, we're going to talk about four categories, and this is the four categories.
08:27: We're going to talk about the category of permanency, and then we're going to talk about semi-permanence.
08:36: So it's permanence, semi-permanence, semi-permissive, and permissive.
08:47: Now, maybe I have jumped ahead a little bit, but these four things deal with the subject of divorce.
08:56: So maybe before we even get to these, maybe it would be good for us to, at least from a biblical perspective, define what marriage is.
09:06: The Bible defines marriage for us in the second chapter of the book of Genesis.
09:13: It says, For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother, he shall cleave unto his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
09:24: That is the biblical definition of marriage.
09:28: And as I often point out, when I'm doing premarital counseling, that passage is not about Adam and Eve.
09:38: Because the passage says, For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother.
09:42: Well, Adam didn't have a father and a mother.
09:46: So what that passage is, is that passage is a prescriptive passage based upon what happened with Adam and Eve.
09:56: Adam and Eve were married, as it were, by God in the garden, establishing the first marriage, establishing that covenant relationship.
10:07: And then God says, Because of this, based on this, therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall hold fast to or cleave unto his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
10:26: And they are no longer two, but one flesh.
10:30: Brother, you got your Bible open.
10:31: Can you tell me the verse so that everyone else has it? I'm doing this from memory.
10:35: So what is it? It should be the end to what? 224.
10:39: Okay, I believe.
10:40: Yeah.
10:41: So in chapter two, it gives us this.
10:43: And again, it's not about Adam and Eve.
10:45: It's a prescription for marriage.
10:47: And we know it becomes the prescription for marriage.
10:50: Because later in the Bible, when Jesus is asked about marriage, he hearkens back to this passage in Matthew 19.
10:59: When he's asked about marriage and divorce, he says, Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother, two shall become one.
11:06: And, and what God has brought together, let not man separate, right? That's Jesus is using Genesis two, as the foundation for marriage.
11:16: And so it's important to understand before we even get into the question of permanent, semi permanence, permissive, and all this deals with the subject of divorce.
11:26: But before we even talk about divorce, we at least have to define marriage.
11:30: So marriage is a man.
11:39: So we'll say one man who has taken for himself a wife.
11:46: So let's say one woman.
11:50: And these two, this man and this woman become one flesh.
11:58: So it's not one plus one equals two.
12:03: It's one plus one equals one.
12:07: And this is what makes in my estimation, what makes divorce such a huge problem.
12:15: And that is because when you have one, and you divide it, you don't get back to two ones, you end up with a broken half, two broken halves, because it was one.
12:31: And now it's broken by divorce.
12:35: So at the very least, we can see just by this little simple illustration, why the Bible says in no uncertain terms, that God hates divorce, that very simple term in Scripture.
12:50: So anytime we talk about the subject of marriage and divorce, we should enter into the conversation understanding that we're we're treading on a subject that automatically is a subject that if we could speak of God in these terms is a subject that breaks God's heart.
13:08: If we want to be, you know, maybe a little simplifying and anthropomorphizing God in the sense that it's sinful.
13:16: Divorce is bad.
13:17: It's never based on two people doing the right thing.
13:20: It's either one or both doing something sinful.
13:24: It's never based on two people doing the right thing.
13:27: And this is where the idea of no fault divorce does not exist in Scripture.
13:34: This is a manmade concept that there could be a divorce where neither party has done anything wrong.
13:40: That is not biblical.
13:43: But the question becomes and where we get to in this class is the question of is divorce ever permissible scripturally? And this is the positions that are our subject for the conversation.
14:00: The first position of permanence says that divorce is never lawful.
14:08: Divorce is never lawful.
14:15: I want to quote to you.
14:17: This is regarding the Roman Catholic Church, which holds to a permanence view.
14:25: It says the Roman Catholic Church treats all consummated sacramental marriages as permanent during the life of the spouses and therefore does not allow marriage remarriage after divorce if the other spouse still lives and the marriage has not been annulled.
14:42: Now, that sounded kind of complicated because it did mention a divorce.
14:47: So the way that the Roman Catholic Church operates is if you do get a divorce, you can't get remarried.
14:55: So they would hold to you're still technically married, even if you've had a divorce, you're still unless the marriage has been annulled.
15:03: And that is a very interesting concept because annulment typically means that there has been no consummation.
15:14: So vows have been made, but no intercourse has been engaged in and therefore the vows can be annulled because they have not been they've not been solidified through consummation.
15:27: However, we know that there have been annulments made where there was consummation.
15:32: So that rule doesn't stand hard and fast.
15:33: But in general, the teaching is that there is no marriage, or excuse me, there's no remarriage after divorce, and some would say no divorce then is allowed.
15:46: I'll read to you from the Catholic Catechism.
15:49: This is number 2384.
15:51: It says divorce is a grave offense against the natural law it claims to break the contract to which the spouse is freely consented to live with each other till death.
16:01: Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation of which sacramental marriage is the sign contracting a new union even if it is recognized by civil law adds to the gravity of the rupture.
16:14: The remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery.
16:20: That's this is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, they would say that if you are remarried, you enter into an adulterous relationship and it's a permanent relationship of adultery goes on in number 2385 and says divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society.
16:41: This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them and because of its contagious effect, which makes it truly a plague on society.
16:57: So that is the permanence view.
17:01: Yes.
17:10: Well, that's what we're going to talk a little bit more here on these.
17:13: As I said, the way that I used to have this and you'll actually see this I used to have it as three here permanent semi permanence and permissive.
17:23: Well, I've added one and I'm gonna explain why in a minute.
17:26: I actually didn't take the old screen off.
17:28: So you can see, even my understanding has somewhat expanded.
17:32: Because the permanency view typically what I have found among permanency advocates, whether they be Roman Catholic or Protestant, is that they don't don't typically allow for divorce.
17:41: But if they do no remarriage, and that's where I would say semi permanence would be, the next evolution would be okay, you can have the divorce separate, but you cannot remarry, that would still be a semi permanence view because the marriage then has not truly been put away.
18:01: Because you're still in a situation where if you remarry, or if you enter into another relationship, you're engaging in a position and engaging in adultery.
18:11: Now, some would say, it's not permanent adultery, like we just read for the Roman Catholic, some would say, for instance, if a person were to marry another person, they've committed a single act of adultery, but because they've established a new marriage, it's not a perpetual act of adultery.
18:27: And I think that's maybe where the semi permanence would be.
18:30: And here's where I give you an example of somebody I say would fall under that category, somebody like Votie Bauckham, who is a permanency advocate.
18:38: But if you listen to him, he will say, if you're in a marriage now, and you were divorced before, and you're in a new marriage, I'm not telling you to get a divorce and go back to your wife, or your husband, because you've started a new marriage and therefore you're started over.
18:54: Right? So that takes sort of a semi permanence view, because they're not telling you to abandon the new marriage and go back.
19:01: But they are saying wherever you are is where you have to stay.
19:04: Yeah, and there's no, there's no lawful divorce.
19:07: I think, I think that's the key to permanency, is that the idea is there is no lawful divorce, whether it is the permanence or semi permanent view.
19:17: It's, there's no lawful, truly lawful division that allows for a person to remarry.
19:27: Now the permissive views obviously sound awful.
19:32: I hate that word permissive, because it sounds like that's the liberal view, because we think of like, progressive permissive sounds liberal.
19:41: But the permissive views are what are described in the Westminster Confession.
19:49: The Westminster Confession allows for divorce and even remarriage in certain circumstances.
19:56: And so the semi permissive view as I'm explaining it, is that there would be divorce and remarriage allowed for covenant breaking sins.
20:09: That's the way we would describe it.
20:11: Divorce and remarriage is allowed for covenant breaking sins.
20:16: Now what would be some examples of covenant breaking sins, adultery would be the first one, right? This would be based on Matthew 531 and 32, where Jesus said it was also said whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.
20:34: But I say to you, that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
20:44: So they say right there, there is an exception clause.
20:48: You'll hear this phrase a lot, the exception clause.
20:57: And what is the exception clause? He says right there, that I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife except on the grounds of sexual immorality.
21:12: Now you'll notice what it doesn't say, doesn't say adultery.
21:18: That's an important thing that permanency advocates often point out, is that Jesus does not say except on the grounds of adultery.
21:26: He says, he uses the Greek word pornea.
21:33: Pornea is obviously where the word that we use pornography comes from meaning a illicit image, graphos, something that is written or drawn.
21:44: So pornography is something that is seen an image.
21:48: Well, pornea means sexual immorality, and it has a wide variety of ways that it can be applied.
21:58: Sexual immorality can be applied to lust, it can be applied to adultery, it can be applied to fornication.
22:03: In fact, the word fornication comes from pornea.
22:06: It's a it's a word taken from that.
22:08: So this idea of sexual immorality becomes the exception clause.
22:14: And those who would take a permissive view would say that a person who has been cheated on, or a person who has experienced sexual infidelity in marriage, is then free to divorce without consequence.
22:33: And where this would become a real issue is in a church like for instance, let us make a simple imaginative thought.
22:41: Let's say in a church, there is a man and a woman, and the man commits adultery on his wife, and the wife goes to the elders.
22:51: And she says, my husband has committed adultery, I no longer want to be married to my husband.
22:57: And I want a divorce, he has committed a covenant breaking sin.
23:02: At that point, wherever the elders land on this will, will be an important distinguisher of how they understand this is where I say, God knows what's right.
23:15: We're trying to figure out based on the word.
23:18: But if a woman came to the elders, and the elders took a semi permissive or permissive position, they would probably say that she was in her rights to divorce her husband because he committed a covenant breaking sin.
23:32: But it doesn't mean she has to.
23:36: It doesn't mean that she has to, because they as I have been in this situation, this question has been asked to me.
23:43: And my first response is, is there no way in your heart that you can find forgiveness for this person? If that's what they are seeking? If the husband has committed this grave sin, and now he's come repentant and asked for forgiveness, are you in no way willing to forgive this person and then we'd have to discuss that and discuss whether or not she was within her rights to continue with a divorce.
24:07: But again, if you take a permanent view, she doesn't have the right to divorce, even if he's committed a covenant breaking sin.
24:13: So that's, that's an important distinction.
24:16: So the semi permanence or excuse me, the semi permissive view would say that adultery would be one of the covenant breaking sins.
24:26: So I'm going to write this up here adultery, which would fall under the category of sexual immorality.
24:34: What's another one? Anyone have the there's typically two that are used to describe.
24:41: The second one is abandonment, abandonment, abandonment would be based upon First Corinthians chapter seven, where it says that if a if a unbelieving spouse separates, let it be so in such case, the brother or sister is not in bondage or is not enslaved.
25:13: Which means that as some have understood it, that they are no longer under the covenant of marriage in that sense that because the unbelieving spouse has departed, that they no longer are responsible to maintain that relationship because they have been abandoned.
25:35: And so if a person this is the semi permanence view, if a person has been the victim of adultery, or if the person has been the victim of abandonment, that either one of those would be grounds for divorce.
25:53: According to that view, whether you agree or not, I'm just giving you the view.
25:57: That's the semi permanent semi permissive view, because it permits only under certain circumstances.
26:05: There is a third one that's often discussed.
26:08: And that is the the idea of abuse.
26:14: And I bring that up, only because it's a nice little alliterative thing.
26:21: You have adultery, abandonment and abuse three terrible things, but they do all start with the letter A.
26:26: But it's important to consider the fact that those three things often are, if you talk to a person who holds to a semi permissive view, those are the three things.
26:37: And like I said that you would ask them, well, where does abuse come in? And they would likely say there's no specific text for abuse.
26:46: However, if a person is being physically violently abused, that it would be right of the elders to save that person from physical harm, and therefore allow for that person to separate themselves from that.
27:02: And we would argue also this comes into play with Romans 13, which tells us that the government plays a part in punishing evildoers.
27:13: And therefore, if a man or a woman are abusing their spouse, it wouldn't be incorrect for the church to involve the civil authorities, because the civil authorities have a place of providing protection and retribution for those who are behaving in such a way.
27:30: So another example, if I got a call at midnight from a church member, and we'll just say it's a guy, and his wife is violently attacking him, and maybe she has a weapon of some sort or is threatening him, it would be certainly within the bounds to call the police.
27:50: Because this is a situation where if nothing is done, it could lead to injury or death.
27:58: And so certainly that would be a realistic consideration.
28:01: Now where that would go as far as leading to divorce and things like that, that that would be that there would be a lot more to consider there.
28:09: But typically, if you talk to the semi permissive perspective, they will say those things that are permitted are abandonment, adultery and abuse.
28:20: And that's all that's another key is that that's it.
28:26: So if a person comes to the elders and says my wife no longer makes me happy, we would say that is not a covenant breaking sin.
28:34: That is not something that you have the right to seek a divorce over.
28:39: Right? She makes me miserable.
28:41: That is not something that is biblically giving you the right to divorce.
28:48: So that's why I call it semi permissive because it's not fully permissive.
28:52: The fully permissive view number four, really is the view.
28:56: That's the reason why I added semi permissive is because the truly permissive view allows it in any case.
29:02: And there are some churches that simply allow for divorce with no restrictions.
29:09: And I would say that's the most unreasonable from a biblical perspective, that no divorce is ever challenged, or, or considered to be wrong.
29:24: So, just out of curiosity, because I'm interested, and there's only a few people in class tonight, and I hope this doesn't open up a big can of worms.
29:36: Do you have a personal thought on this issue, a personal conviction where you would say, I, I feel like I line up with one, two, three or four.
29:46: And if you don't want to say, don't feel bad, but just know the cameras not pointed at you.
29:50: So nobody's going to know who you are.
29:51: If you're okay, go ahead.
29:55: There are Yes, as I just said, Vodie Bockham would be somewhere between one and two.
30:02: Well, that's different.
30:03: Because even though we would say that Anglicans are not Catholic, Anglicans are also not, not well, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're a, they're a branch of Protestantism.
30:19: But they're, they're, the, the issue that you're talking about was Henry VIII's desire to, to divorce is part of the reason why the Anglican Church, the question of authority, does should the king have the ability to make us make a determination on this? And who's the true head of the church? Is it the Pope? Or is it the crown? Is it the king? And, and that's what, you know, I recently did a interview with a group of Anglicans, I asked them about Henry VIII, and how they how they feel that question.
30:52: And it was interesting how they answered you, if you're interested, you can go back and listen to my, my podcast.
30:57: But ultimately, the, that was about an annulment.
31:03: Because the Pope would not grant an annulment.
31:07: Wasn't so much divorce.
31:08: Remember, going back to that idea, because the divorce has been, you know, not allowed, but annulments are allowed.
31:14: So, but yeah, Henry, the, it's interesting when you look into the history of that.
31:21: So with that being said, anybody want to share, Mark? Okay, so you would hold to number three, like I said, very similar to the Westminster.
31:32: What's interesting is the 1689, which I know your church holds to, doesn't address that, but the Westminster does.
31:41: And I've often wondered why.
31:44: But that's why I tend to find more 1689 guys tend to fall into the permanence view.
31:49: Obviously, not yourself, but some do, like Voting Bockham and others, because the Westminster, they don't have that same, if it were in the confession, they would have to, if they were full subscriptionists and subscribe to the confession, they would have to accept that position, because it'd be in the confession.
32:06: What about you, brother? Between two and three? Okay, that's fair.
32:12: I think, I think there is sort of a spectrum there.
32:14: That's sort of where nobody wants to say divorce for any reason, right? What do you think, sister? So, so number three, but we wouldn't say divorce is allowed for any reason.
32:30: Okay.
32:30: And, and again, if someone were to ask what our church teaches, our elders are all the same.
32:36: We all hold to the position that there are covenant breaking sins, that there are things that would allow for righteous divorce, at least in the sense of there being a victim and a perpetrator, the perpetrator sins and the victim is able then to divorce.
32:51: And that would put us in number three as well.
32:54: So that's the place where we would be as a church.
32:56: However, there are issues with remarriage.
33:02: And that's the point that really becomes the issue because there are times where if a person divorces a person, we would say that there are certain things in Romans seven, or I'm sorry, first Corinthians seven, that would allow for remarriage.
33:19: And there's certain things that wouldn't.
33:21: For instance, if these things are in play, then they would be allowed to remarry.
33:25: But if they simply left their spouse for not making him happy, or whatever, you know, we would say they they have that right to divide but not to remarry.
33:35: And that's a whole other category of conversation.
33:38: Yes.
33:42: I'm glad you asked.
33:43: That's an important question, Corey, because some people believe that permanency extends even into death.
33:48: But that's a very minority opinion.
33:53: What's that? Yes, that's what I'm saying.
33:59: But some would say that that that covenant is lifelong on both sides.
34:04: But I don't know too many people who hold that view.
34:08: Obviously, I would say once a spouse dies, you're within your right to remarry.
34:13: However, I always add this thought to that.
34:16: As as a man, I hope my wife outlives me, because I don't want to be married to anyone else.
34:24: I can say that I've told my wife, I want to be buried next to her.
34:29: So I hope that one of us doesn't die young and to the point where the other one has to live a long time alone.
34:35: I would hate that she had to live alone.
34:37: So that's that's, that's a thought, you know, and that's maybe I shouldn't even have said that.
34:41: But that's a personal comment.
34:42: My wife, I've had that conversation.
34:44: You know, what happens if I pass away tomorrow? She's only 43.
34:49: You know, that so those questions come up, but it wouldn't be a sin on her part.
34:55: If she were to remarry.
34:57: However, I'd be in heaven unhappy.
34:59: I'm just just kidding.
35:02: Just kidding.
35:02: I would be happy.
35:04: No, well, that sounds weird, too.
35:06: Now.
35:07: Let's just get off that.
35:08: But the other the other conversation when it comes to the subject of marriage, and don't want to spend too much time on this, but but this does create a conversation.
35:16: And that's the question of polygamy.
35:19: Because obviously, the Bible addresses the subject of polygamy in a very difficult way because there are men in the Bible who are righteous in the sense of being believers and righteous by faith, who engage in the subject of polygamy.
35:40: Think of tell me who if you might be who who is this? Yeah.
35:49: Yeah, I would say probably not a righteous man.
35:53: Abraham would be the first one I would think of because Abraham had his wife Sarai, who later became Sarah, but he also had her handmaiden.
36:02: And after Sarai's death, we hear of Keturah.
36:06: But we don't know if he was married to her prior to Sarah's death or not.
36:10: We just know she was there because he had other children with Keturah.
36:13: I think that's Genesis 34 or something mentions her name.
36:18: So that is obviously an example of a man who is lauded by Scripture as being a godly man.
36:27: And yet he engaged in polygamy.
36:35: Isaac had Rebecca that he married.
36:37: I don't think.
36:38: No, that was Jacob.
36:40: Jacob, Leah and Rachel.
36:42: Yeah.
36:42: And then he had then they both had two handmaidens.
36:45: He had wives from a plethora of women.
36:50: And yet the Bible doesn't condemn that act in regard to those men.
36:57: And so this has led to many creative conversations, particularly if you were out in the state of Utah, and among the Mormons, where there is at least the traditional view that there was an allowance among the Mormons for multiple wives.
37:17: Now they don't allow it anymore, at least not openly.
37:22: But many traditional Mormons still hold to polygamy.
37:26: And polygamy again, like we the word monogamy means one, to be married to one person, polygamy means to have a multiple marriage.
37:37: I go back when people ask me my position, I say I say the Bible does not condemn under the Old Covenant, we don't see a condemnation of polygamy.
37:46: However, we see an exaltation of monogamy.
37:52: So that's where I make my distinction.
37:55: I say we don't see an absolute condemnation of polygamy, but we see an exaltation of monogamy, particularly in Genesis two, where we get the definition of marriage, it's a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined unto his wife, one wife and the two, not three or four or five or six, but the two shall become one.
38:17: And what God has brought together, let not man separate.
38:19: So the the biblical model is one man and one woman.
38:23: And then when we get to the New Covenant, this is reaffirmed.
38:28: When Paul is giving the directives for the leaders of the church, what is one of the qualifications for being a elder and a deacon? May on guna costs Andre, that's the Greek and it means a one woman, man.
38:52: Huh? Yeah, yeah, we didn't get to Solomon.
38:54: You're right.
38:55: He had 700.
38:57: And, you know, 300 concubines, which is ridiculous, the idea that that that he would have such a, such a group.
39:06: But like I said, the, I think that we can make certain easily definable assumptions regarding the lack of wisdom and that in those, you know, from biblical perspective, a wise man but yet the the problem with that, but when we get to the New Covenant, it's obvious that there is to be one man and one woman when that's defined, particularly for church leadership, and that to be the example for all.
39:34: And so now, it is, to me without doubt, if somebody were to come to me and say, Can I have a second wife, I would say I don't believe the Bible allows for that, particularly within the New Covenant.
39:48: And even what was allowed under the old covenant was in a very particular cultural environment that we no longer live in.
39:55: And so I would say it is something that should be should be at least understood to be out of order.
40:08: Because God's order is one man and one woman.
40:12: So that being said, let's look now at the question of sexual ethics, sexual sin.
40:21: The Bible defines sexual sin in multiple ways.
40:24: But the three things we're going to talk about are fornication, adultery, and polyamory.
40:35: fornication is defined as any sexual activity outside of marriage, typically translated as sexual immorality.
40:45: People ask, Well, when does that happen? is, and I don't want to be too graphic, but is are two people having a passionate kiss going past the line or two people laying together, but having their clothes on or whatever? Is that going over the line? These are questions.
41:03: And typically my answer for my children is you if you have to ask the answer is no.
41:11: But in general, sexual immorality can be more than just intercourse.
41:15: And that's the point I'm making is that fornication can include things like things that involve not just physical intercourse, but things like sodomy and things like that, which are certainly also sexual sin even, even would fall under the category of pornography.
41:36: One of the worst things that is happening right now, and people don't even realize how bad it is, is how many people are having cyber sexual encounters, where they are using their bodies to produce images which are intended to create sexual fantasies or things on the other side of a digital wall.
41:58: So women will take pictures of themselves and sell them online or videos of themselves and sell them online.
42:03: Men will look at those images and use them for sexual gratification.
42:07: That's still a form of sexual sin.
42:10: It still would fall in my imagination or not my imagination, in my estimation, it would fall into the category of fornication still, even though it's not the same as physical fornication, it's still sexual immorality.
42:22: Jesus said, if a man looks at a woman to lust after her, he has committed adultery with her in his heart.
42:27: So it's not the same.
42:30: If a man looks at pornography, it's not the same as cheating on his wife.
42:32: I want to say I don't think it's the exact same, but it's still a category of sin.
42:37: It's still if a man came to me and said he was looking at sexual images, I would still say that's sin.
42:43: I wouldn't say, well, because you didn't do it physically doesn't make it sin.
42:47: Jesus doesn't allow that when he says, when he says that if we look with lust, we commit sin in our heart, right? So the fornication, the act, but there's also lust, which is fornication of the heart, or what I coined this, well I didn't coin it, but I used this term years ago.
43:09: It is my highest rated sermon ever.
43:12: If you go to Sermon Audio, you can look at the statistics and which one's been downloaded the most.
43:15: The sermon that I preached that was downloaded the most is a sermon called mental pornography, where I explained how the Bible defines lust.
43:24: And the Bible defines lust as mental pornography.
43:27: So fornication is primarily it's sexual intercourse, but it can have other actions could still be fornication.
43:42: And we would say this, the two people are not married.
43:46: That's the key to fornication is it's outside of the bonds of marriage.
43:51: The second is adultery.
43:53: Adultery would be voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than their spouse.
44:06: That's a simple enough definition.
44:09: I think we voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than their spouse.
44:19: And the reason why I stress the word voluntary there is rape would not be considered adultery.
44:28: If heaven forbid my wife were to be assaulted and rape were to have taken place, it would not be considered adultery, not by me and not by any reasonable person, because it wasn't engaged in by her choice.
44:45: She was assaulted, you know, if we understand what I'm saying.
44:49: So and I guess we could make the same point for fornication.
44:52: If an unmarried woman were assaulted, she wouldn't be fornicating, she would be a victim of sexual attack or sexual abuse.
45:07: The polyamory, and I actually did a podcast about this recently, I'm going to link that to this week's class.
45:14: If anybody's interested, Richard Roden and I talked about polyamory.
45:18: Polyamory is the idea of a multiple sexual partner relationship.
45:25: And it's not married.
45:27: So this is where it would differ from polygamy.
45:29: Polygamy is married to multiple people.
45:33: Polyamory is engaging in multiple sexual relationships with the consent of all the people involved.
45:38: Now that doesn't mean that is not the same and excuse this term if I hope it's not offensive.
45:44: That's not the same as something like an orgy where people gather together and have multiple sexual partners for some type of horrible experience they call an orgy.
45:59: That's that's not this.
46:00: This is where and you can find videos on this, you'll find people who have one woman and two men living in the same house and both men are taking turns or having relationship with the woman on different at different times and they call that polyamory.
46:17: That is a like I said, it differs from polygamy because polygamy is multiple spouses.
46:23: This is not engaged in marriage.
46:27: Now I have a quote up here I want to read according to WebMD the age by the age of 20 75% of Americans have engaged in premarital sex.
46:43: That means three out of four people by the age of 20 have engaged in premarital sex and if you go to the age of 44 95% of unmarried people by the age of 44 have engaged in premarital sex.
46:59: That is based on a study done by WebMD.
47:04: So because of this there has been given rise to such movements such as the safe sex movement which pushes things like contraceptives and birth control and things like that and other things to try to make sex outside of marriage safe.
47:22: And the reality is while they can do what they can to make sex outside of marriage safe they will never make sex outside of marriage sanctified.
47:33: And that's an important distinction.
47:40: Some denominations take a very liberal view of sex and some a much more I would say biblical and conservative view.
47:53: But I brought two videos with me and we're going to finish out this hour by talking about these two videos.
48:00: The first one I think I may have showed the first night but I want to show it again because it relates to this class.
48:05: This is a young woman who was on a bachelorette show one of those you know she gets to meet a bunch of men and seek to find one to be a companion.
48:16: Well during the show she engaged in sexual intercourse with some of the men on the show and one of the men was a Christian and when he found out he was upset about it.
48:26: And this is her response to him.
48:34: What is the most dramatic moment of the season? I've had sex and Jesus still loves me is probably one of the most dramatic.
48:42: Okay.
48:47: That is a big huge part of me and a lot of times people get Christianity and religion messed up because your faith should be something personal in our relationship and it's not to judge others.
49:10: It seems like you felt judged or shamed.
49:12: Yes and it's like regardless of any thing that I've done that people might think oh well that deserves a scarlet letter.
49:26: That's not how it works.
49:27: Like I can do whatever I sin daily and Jesus still loves me.
49:33: Like it's all washed and do not and if the Lord doesn't judge me and it's all forgiven then no other man woman animal anything I don't know anything can judge me.
49:47: Nobody's going to judge me.
49:48: I won't say where I'm going to speak my mind about it.
49:58: It's really my like power play moment.
50:01: Okay.
50:02: Like not playing anymore.
50:04: Anything you wish you'd said or did you get it all out? I think I got it all out.
50:10: So clear.
50:11: So clear.
50:12: You would think but you set up for yourself.
50:14: Honestly, my faith has grown so much and I realized like what relationship with the Lord is really about.
50:20: I don't have to carry that to ever have anybody make me feel that way.
50:26: It's a little messed up and I'm not going to stand for that.
50:30: So what's her point? Huh? Grace card.
50:38: That's that's a good term.
50:40: People sometimes use grace as a license for sin.
50:43: Paul very much forbids that in Romans six, when he says, we should not continue in sin that grace can abound.
50:49: But notice what else she said.
50:51: She said, I sin daily.
50:55: And Jesus doesn't judge me.
50:57: Therefore, I'm not going to let anybody else judge me.
51:00: And that is a very often touted argument.
51:06: That what's the difference between Corey you send today, Mark, you send today, Kitty, you send today, I don't know what it was, but I'm certain if we wrote down a few things, we could talk about our sins.
51:17: And how is that different from what she's doing? And the big difference, I think what most people recognize is one, not all sin is the same.
51:28: Even though people want to say all sin is the same, the Bible doesn't say that the Bible says that all sin breaks God's law.
51:36: But that not that all sin is the same.
51:37: In fact, it specifically says that sin done with the body referring to sexual sin is worse because it's done with the body that we're that we're that we're Yeah, yeah, yeah.
51:49: So there's this, there is a sense in which there are certain sins that do carry more weight.
51:55: And that should make sense to us.
51:57: Because we understand that even our judicial system recognizes that there are certain things that carry a greater weight.
52:05: But the other side of it, too, is her anger at at someone who would hold a biblical position.
52:13: He said, I, I think we should talk about how the marriage bed is to be kept pure.
52:18: And she was not having it.
52:21: And I use her again, not not to sit here and just beat on her.
52:25: But to say, here's an example of a very permissive going back to that word, a very permissive view about sexual sin that is found within the church.
52:37: And we see it happening to the point where people don't even realize it's happening.
52:42: And that's the second video I have.
52:43: I want you to listen this was this recording comes from a prayer breakfast.
52:49: Keep that in mind.
52:51: National prayer breakfast, which was held just a few months ago.
52:57: And this video was a woman speaking at the prayer breakfast.
53:02: I want to thank you for pulling this together.
53:04: Another year, another standing room only event.
53:08: And when I woke up this morning at seven, I was getting picked up at 745.
53:13: Patrick, my fiancee tried to pull me by my waist over this morning.
53:17: And then I was like, No, baby, we don't got time for that this morning.
53:20: I gotta get to the prayer breakfast.
53:22: And I gotta be on time.
53:24: And little TMI.
53:26: But um, I know he can wait.
53:30: I'll see him later tonight.
53:31: Um, but I was here early today for you, Tim.
53:35: And I think everybody.
53:38: Everybody was here early for you today.
53:44: What is the assumption? Well, they're at least sleeping together.
53:51: She got out of bed.
53:52: And he's there when I say sleeping literally in the same bed.
53:56: And she's in a situation where she's speaking to presumptive believers because they're at a quote unquote prayer breakfast.
54:04: And yet she's unafraid to say that she's engaged in a premarital this is fiance not husband, and a premarital relationship with this man where they're sharing a bed and where I would say, almost certainly pulling her at the hips was a sexual action.
54:22: Again, there's some debate as to whether or not that's what he intended.
54:25: But I don't think she wondered what he intended, especially when she said, I'll see him again tonight.
54:31: Now, one of the things I read, because this when this went out, I, I shared it on Twitter, just to kind of put it out there, say what's you know, what do people think about this.
54:42: And one of the things that I kept getting pushback on was she's a new Christian.
54:49: She's a new Christian.
54:50: I don't have any idea who this this is a I think she's a congresswoman or something.
54:53: But the argument was she's a new Christian, her boyfriend, fiance, whatever is not a Christian.
54:59: And therefore we shouldn't expect that they would have a biblical sexual ethic.
55:06: And I find that to be a very weak argument.
55:11: Because not more than a half century ago.
55:15: This biblical sexual ethic was the standard, even to the point that on television shows back in the 60s and 70s.
55:23: They couldn't even show married couples in the same bed.
55:27: Because there was such a strong and I say that you remember Lucy and Ricky, they were married.
55:32: But if you ever watched the show, I love Lucy, they never showed him in the bed together, even though they were married.
55:40: Yep, they had the two beds.
55:41: And the reason why was because there was an understanding that sexual sin was wrong.
55:48: But we have in less than half a century went from that to a sitting representative being willing to announce her sexual indiscretion with no consequence.
56:02: She went on Hannity that night, and Hannity who was a committed and confessing Catholic laughed about it.
56:09: And there was very little to no consequences.
56:12: So this is this I point this out simply to say, we can clearly see that the Bible says that we are to flee sexual immorality that we are to abandon things like fornication and adultery and, and polyamory and those things and we are and we are not to engage in those things.
56:29: But the church has turned its eyes away from the Scripture in that regard, and has has in many ways adopted the world standards.
56:41: So even though the world and even some churches would hold to a very loose sexual ethic, it is not something about which the Bible mints his words, God has designed sex for the bond of marriage.
56:54: And anything outside of that bond is sinful and therefore unethical.
56:59: Let's take a break.
57:00: And we'll come back and talk about alternative lifestyles.
57:10: Alright, so this this class is always interesting, because I know there's so many thoughts, and different ideas and struggles that you know, we could discuss one of the things before we get to this last part, Dr.
57:24: Sproul and his ethics course.
57:28: He, he always gave a really difficult divorce ethic question, and I always like to throw it out to the class.
57:37: He said, he said, imagine you had a permissive view of divorce or semi permissive view where you allowed for divorce in the in the case of adultery.
57:49: And a man and a woman were in a concentration camp.
57:55: And the soldiers told the woman, if you don't allow us to have sex with you, then we're going to kill your husband.
58:03: So she consented to save her husband's life.
58:07: And then after the concentration camp is liberated, the man found out that the wife consented and wanted a divorce, which would be terrible.
58:18: But the point of the ethical dilemma would was that Dr.
58:22: Sproul was proposing was, even if you allowed for divorce in the case of adultery, it still wouldn't be right of him to divorce his wife, because what she did, what she consented to was to consent to save his life.
58:37: And one could say it was a form of coercion, and therefore a form of rape.
58:40: But that's where the conversation lies.
58:42: And that's where, like I said, some of these questions do come with some very difficult outliers, things that we have to consider.
58:53: And that leads us to this question of alternative lifestyles.
58:58: And as I said, beginning of class, I don't like the term alternative lifestyle, but I'm using it because that is the common nomenclature of the day.
59:09: And alternative lifestyles typically refers to what has commonly been called the LGBT community.
59:19: And those letters stand for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender.
59:28: Now there are also an expanded list.
59:33: And you'll see now if you see it on some forms and things that come out and they are sometimes comes out in and in like memos and things, you'll see the LGBTQIA, and sometimes even QIAP plus.
59:56: And what that stands for is Q is questioning I is intersex, A is asexual, P is pansexual.
01:00:06: And then of course, the plus simply means that there is an unlimited variation on any of these things.
01:00:14: Wayne Brady, famous comedian, who was a star of the show, Whose Line Is It Anyway, and was also a host of several game shows.
01:00:24: He has recently come out as pansexual.
01:00:28: And his definition of pansexual is that he says he does not look at someone's sex when he is determining whether or not he is attracted to that person, that he's not attracted by virtue of sex, but rather pan which means all simply means he is attracted to anyone no matter their no matter their sex or gender or whatever.
01:00:57: So this is typically the the the what makes the difficult conversation is because we're not simply talking about homosexuality, we're talking about a wide variety of different sexual proclivities.
01:01:16: And many churches have come to the conclusion that the best way to respond to the LGBTQ plus community is through an act of affirming, meaning they affirm all of these lifestyles as legitimate.
01:01:38: Some even go as far as promoting homosexual wedding ceremonies, transgender, Bible studies, and there's a even recently videos have come out of drag queen, preachers and things like that people obviously dressed in what what would look like almost like clown makeup, leading church services or having having holding ceremonies in churches.
01:02:16: And so that's typically called the affirming position.
01:02:22: And others take what we might say is a hard turn in the other direction churches like Westboro Baptist Church years ago became infamous, because they would hold signs that say God hates fags.
01:02:37: And they would stand outside of the funeral of fallen soldiers, and they would picket the funerals of fallen soldiers with the signs that say, God hates fags and things like that.
01:02:53: And so I would say that both of those extremes are obviously wrong.
01:02:59: And even though I would say the affirming is, is, is very problematic, I would say also the the West for Westboro position is very problematic as well.
01:03:14: And with such a wide diversion of church responses to this phenomenon, it might seem like the Bible is unclear on this issue.
01:03:22: In fact, a few years ago, a movement began, which sought to normalize homosexuality within the church.
01:03:30: And proponents of that view, say that we have misread the passages that regard homosexuality, and that the Bible never condemns committed homosexual relationships.
01:03:43: And for instance, there are books that are available on this subject, God and the gay Christian by Matthew Vines argues that God simply does not condemn same sex relationships and marriage.
01:03:55: If you read the Amazon description, it says, quote, Matthew Vines is the founder of the reformation project, a Bible based nonprofit organization that seeks to reform church teaching on sexual orientation and gender identity.
01:04:09: So Matthew Vines, his point, as stated, as he believes that a reformation needs to come to the church in regard to the understanding of sexual identity and gender.
01:04:20: And his point is to say that God does not condemn the subject of or the the committed homosexual relationship.
01:04:30: Now, I have personally sat in two publicly moderated debates.
01:04:36: One was with James White and john Shelby Spong.
01:04:40: And the other was with James White and Michael Brown, versus two local homosexual ministers.
01:04:46: That one was actually here in Jacksonville.
01:04:48: And it was actually was in Switzerland, which is just south of Mandarin.
01:04:53: So just a little south of Jacksonville, Switzerland Community Church hosted that one.
01:04:58: And in those debates, there seemed to be two defenses that would come up.
01:05:06: The first defense is they would say homosexuality, transgenderism, whatever you want to put the LGBT, it's they would say it's not sin.
01:05:16: That would be the first defense is that it's not saying that would be Matthew Vines is position on the subject of committed homosexual relationships, he would say it's simply not sin.
01:05:26: The second position is similar to the position we saw the young lady in the video earlier, is that it is sin, but everyone sins.
01:05:33: So it's acceptable.
01:05:41: And when I listened to those debates, I heard what what's interesting is I heard both of these.
01:05:47: I remember specifically listening to john Shelby Spong.
01:05:51: john, if you've never heard of john Shelby Spong, he's dead now.
01:05:53: But john Shelby Spong was a bishop in the Episcopal Church.
01:05:59: And he had a very, very obscure view of Scripture he believed he I'm not even sure he believed in the God of the Bible at all.
01:06:08: He believed in a very weird and obscure view of God.
01:06:12: And he believed that the church was all wrong about sin and all wrong about atonement and Jesus and going to the cross, all those things were wrong.
01:06:19: He was part of what was known as the Jesus seminar, which is a very liberal and progressive.
01:06:25: Well, I don't know if the word progressive is right, a very liberal group of scholars who would meet and talk about the quote unquote, historic Jesus.
01:06:34: And Spong would at certain times and you can go back, listen to the debate.
01:06:37: In fact, if you go listen to the debate online, you'll hear me because I asked the question during the debate.
01:06:41: So you hear my voice from 20 years ago is I think it was in 2005 and 2006, somewhere in there.
01:06:48: So maybe, maybe, maybe 2007.
01:06:50: But anyway, I was there.
01:06:51: And I met Chris Arntzen.
01:06:53: And I met Steve camp.
01:06:55: I met James White, several people that that debate, but but john Shelby Spong at certain points, he was saying, homosexuality is not a sin.
01:07:05: But then at other points, he would say, Well, we all sin.
01:07:08: So it's like he was, he was using both arguments.
01:07:11: And what's funny about these two, if you're ever in a conversation with someone, and they use both of these arguments, they're self defeating.
01:07:17: Because if number one is true, then you don't need to argue number two.
01:07:21: And if number two is true, the number one isn't, because number two says it is a sin.
01:07:27: So these are actually contradictory positions that will be used by the LGBT plus, you know, sometimes I sometimes I satirically call them the letter people and some people get offended by that.
01:07:41: I'm just saying that's a that's a I am being somewhat satirical, because I think it's a lot of foolishness, to be honest.
01:07:50: But it at least to simply say, if you have one, you can't have two.
01:07:54: Because you're saying it's not sin, then the second thing can't be it is a sin.
01:07:59: And if you say to it is sin, then it can't be so.
01:08:01: So they have to take one or the other position.
01:08:03: And the problem that I have found is that often they'll take both.
01:08:06: And you can't have it both ways.
01:08:08: So you got to stick with one or the other.
01:08:10: If someone argues that it's not a sin, whether they be talking about homosexuality or any other sexual perversion, I would point to three specific texts.
01:08:21: And these are the texts that are often in view for the debate.
01:08:24: The first one is Romans chapter one, verses 26 and 27.
01:08:30: Which is the only place that I'm aware of that actually addresses specifically the subject of women, homosexuals, or what we might call lesbian.
01:08:40: It says in verse 26, it says for this reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions, the women exchange natural relations for those that are contrary to nature, and men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another.
01:08:53: Men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
01:08:58: Somebody might argue, well, that has nothing to do with homosexuality, because it doesn't say homosexuality.
01:09:02: Well, it's true that the word homosexuality, homosexuality is not there.
01:09:06: But it uses terms that are specifically related to the sexual acts, such as things like burning with passion, or consumed with passion.
01:09:16: It talks about natural relations versus unnatural relations, and things that are contrary to nature.
01:09:23: These are all certainly in regard to sexual sin.
01:09:26: This is where Matthew Vines in his argument, he argues that this is not talking about a committed homosexual relationship.
01:09:33: But rather, it is only referring to what is at that time in history would have been like a, an abusive sexual relationship, sexual, homosexual abuse, but not homosexuality in and of itself.
01:09:50: I disagree.
01:09:51: The text doesn't say anything about abuse simply says, giving up the woman for the use of the man and doing so because they're consumed with passion.
01:10:01: I disagree with his conclusions.
01:10:03: And I think his conclusions are ultimately being driven by eisegesis, trying to find something in the text to support his preconceived conclusion.
01:10:14: So that's my argument in regard to him.
01:10:17: The next passage would be 1 Corinthians chapter six, verses nine to 11.
01:10:24: This is a passage which the Apostle Paul gives a list of sinful behaviors.
01:10:35: He says, Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God, and such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of God.
01:10:58: So Paul says there, that here's a list of things that you were.
01:11:04: And the things that you were are things that are outside of the bounds of the kingdom.
01:11:11: But you have been washed, you've been sanctified, you have been justified, and therefore, this is not what you continue to be.
01:11:19: And the one thing that he puts on the list is homosexuality.
01:11:24: But this one is a little harder, because you may hear this argument.
01:11:31: And if you do any research on this, I'm sure you would.
01:11:34: There's the argument that the word homosexual did not appear in the Bible until the somewhere in the last century.
01:11:42: And before that, the word homosexuality wasn't there.
01:11:45: And that is true.
01:11:47: As long as far as it goes, the word homosexual is a relatively recent English word in the in the in the vernacular, the King James version does not use homosexuality, it does use the word effeminate.
01:12:04: And the word abusers of themselves, I think you may have a King James, they have access to let me let me real quick.
01:12:14: Let me see if I can just to make sure I'm right about this Corinthians nine.
01:12:27: So make sure I get this right, because it says, Yeah, it says, No, you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.
01:12:46: So it doesn't use the word homosexuality.
01:12:48: And so some people would say, well, the word homosexuality was only added because of a bias against homosexuality.
01:12:55: That is not true.
01:12:57: Homosexuality simply is the best way to translate these words.
01:13:01: And I would say, even then, we have to understand that there's actually two words being translated.
01:13:09: The word that is translated, or the words that are translated are malachoi.
01:13:15: The word malachoi means soft or effeminate.
01:13:19: And that's where the word the King James gets the word effeminate.
01:13:23: And the word arsonic coitus.
01:13:25: And the word arsonic coitus means one who has sex with a man or man sex is literally arsonos and coitus is where the two words man sex and what is in view, in my opinion, and in the opinion of many scholars, is Paul is addressing both the active and passive participants in the homosexual act.
01:13:53: So we understand that homosexuality has a active participant and a passive participant.
01:14:01: And Paul is addressing the passive participant as the effeminate or the malachoi.
01:14:08: And he's addressing the active participant as the arsonic coitus or the one who's literally having sex with the man or the malachoi, the soft, the effeminate one.
01:14:19: And so Paul is addressing both the active and passive participant in homosexual behavior.
01:14:26: And we see the same thing come up again in First Timothy one, verses 10 through 11, or verses rather, nine to 11, where we see the same phrase come up again, and another list of sins.
01:14:43: So those are some of the scriptures that would be in view to address the issue of sexual sin.
01:14:51: And a few of the objections that are raised when you bring those up number one, and this is probably the most common objection that I have heard when I bring up those passages, is they'll say, well, Jesus never condemned homosexuality.
01:15:11: Because you'll notice that I quoted from Romans, I quoted from First Corinthians, and I quoted from First Timothy, all three of those books are, are from the Apostle Paul, not from the words of Christ himself.
01:15:24: And therefore, some would say that Jesus is never condemned homosexuality.
01:15:30: Therefore, we shouldn't be concerned with Paul.
01:15:33: But that is irrelevant, if we have a view of the scripture that all scriptures inspired by God, so that right away that that argument doesn't hold weight.
01:15:44: But also, if we believe Jesus is God in the flesh, if we believe that Jesus himself, not only subjected himself to the old covenant standard, but he himself was, is God and is the author of the old covenant standard, the old covenant clearly condemns homosexuality in certain places such as Leviticus 18.
01:16:09: But the most obvious is when God in heaven rained down fire upon Sodom and Gomorrah.
01:16:18: And that raining down a fire was an act of judgment on a city which was engaging in homosexuality.
01:16:24: Now, there's debate about that, too.
01:16:26: And maybe I'll, if I can remember, I can post this, I did a I did a very intense study, or not intense, a very lengthy study on what was the sin of Sodom.
01:16:38: I did this on one of my podcasts a couple years ago.
01:16:41: I'll try to remember to put that in because that is a good thing to study.
01:16:46: Because one of the things you'll hear homosexual advocates say is that the Bible never says what the sin of Sodom was.
01:16:55: But yet I would disagree.
01:16:56: And I would clearly argue that the sin of Sodom is, is, is, is clearly laid out.
01:17:02: But also, we call the act of, of sex that is outside the normal, we call it what? Sodomy, which there's a reason for that is because it's been understood to be tied to the sin of Sodom.
01:17:19: So I'll try to remember to link that in my, in my notes for this class.
01:17:25: Another argument is that the church should never pass judgment.
01:17:31: That is a very common argument people make, they say we should just never pass judgment.
01:17:37: And we should just affirm everyone.
01:17:41: And this is where an ethical question does arise we have to address.
01:17:50: And when should we and when must we engage in the act of discernment or making judgments.
01:17:58: And first Corinthians five tells us the Apostle Paul is very clear.
01:18:02: And first Corinthians five, that when we are dealing with outsiders, that we have to understand that they're unbelievers, and they're going to behave like unbelievers, where the issue lies is in the church.
01:18:15: So if there are people outside of the church who are engaging in sexual immorality, homosexuality, whatever, we can say that's wrong, we don't like it or whatever.
01:18:24: But we also are not seeking to pass judgment on them, because they are not part of the body of Christ.
01:18:31: But Paul says, if there is someone in the body of Christ, who is engaging in those things, then that person is subject to the discipline of the church.
01:18:38: And that's where the difference lies.
01:18:40: And this is where john MacArthur said something a few years ago, and some people got offended by it.
01:18:45: But I want you to really consider what he says, whatever your feelings about john MacArthur, I want you to really think about this, because he was asked the question, what if my child was a homosexual? And he said, the difference would lie in whether your child confesses to be a believer or not.
01:19:01: He says, because if your child doesn't confess to be a believer, then you know, your behavior towards them is one of love and seeking their repentance seeking for them to come to Christ.
01:19:11: But if they confess to be a believer, and their homosexuality, or their homosexual confessing to be a believer, then then they may be subject to church discipline, they may be subject to other things that are not for the unbelieving child, he said, so where it's going to be is what they confess to be.
01:19:29: Do they confess to be a believer? Or do they not? And if they don't, then that's going to relate to that situation.
01:19:34: And I think that I think there's some truth to that.
01:19:36: Because again, I have I have, I have relatives who are in all kinds of sexual different positions, and most of them don't claim to be believers.
01:19:44: And therefore, when I see them, you know, I still talk to them about the Lord, I still try to encourage them to come to Christ and repent of their sin and everything.
01:19:50: But it's not the same as someone who is saying I'm a Christian, and I'm living in these things, that would be a different situation.
01:19:56: And we would call that person to a different standard, we would say you, you claim to be a follower of Christ, and yet you're living in open rebellion against Christ.
01:20:05: That's dangerous.
01:20:06: And so the relationship, the conversation would be different.
01:20:09: It wouldn't be judgment.
01:20:11: I had a guy, I've told the story before, there was a guy who was huge, who had left his wife.
01:20:16: And he was he was he had abandoned his family.
01:20:22: And he and I saw each other.
01:20:24: He was a he was he was a he was a pastor.
01:20:27: And he had left his wife left his family.
01:20:29: And he and I saw each other in Walmart.
01:20:32: And we stopped facing each other.
01:20:36: And he started talking to me about his situation.
01:20:39: And I said to him, I said, You need to repent of your sin, you're living in sin, you need to repent.
01:20:46: Oh, you're just judgmental, like everybody else.
01:20:49: And I said, I'm, I'm only calling, I'm only calling you to the standard that you say you live in, or you say you're a believer.
01:20:55: You say you believe the scripture, and you're living in open rebellion against God, you've abandoned your family, you've abandoned, you've, you've, you've done these things, and you claim to be a Christian.
01:21:07: This is not commensurate with your confession.
01:21:11: And so that's the point, that if you have a person who's an unbeliever, and a person who's a believer, Paul says, there's going to be a different standard, there's going to be a different way that that those have to be addressed.
01:21:25: And probably the hardest question facing the church right now, and maybe this will be where we draw to a close is what if you have a person who has homosexual desires, but doesn't act on them.
01:21:40: And this has led to a lot of debate in, in modern culture, because the argument is that the desire by itself is not sinful.
01:21:52: However, that is debated, because when does a desire become lust, and Jesus clearly tells us that lust is sinful.
01:22:01: So, like, for instance, we, the, I don't know all the particulars.
01:22:08: So the story I'm about to tell is basically just sort of having heard different things.
01:22:13: But as I understand it, there's a major denomination, that's a conservative denomination, and the United States won't name it.
01:22:19: There's a conservative denomination in the United States that had a man who was unmarried, who says he has homosexual desires, but that he's not going to act on them, and is seeking ordination.
01:22:41: So that's one of the issues that has to be addressed, right? One is the question of, is he with these unnatural desires, Paul says are unnatural desires, right? Romans one, with these unnatural desires, do those desires disqualify him? And one might say, well, don't we all have unnatural unhealthy desires, you know? And so, you know, that's, that's a question, an issue that comes up.
01:23:06: But even more so the question of putting a man like that, who, and who has made that statement that he has those unnatural desires, in a position of authority over other people, is that wise? You see, that's the, that's where the real rubber meets the road.
01:23:24: And that's where the question that came up within the denomination.
01:23:27: What are your thoughts, Mark? Just the desire is by itself.
01:23:36: Yeah, not to think that maybe we shouldn't be in that position.
01:23:39: But not say he's not a believer.
01:23:41: Yeah.
01:23:41: Okay.
01:23:43: What do you think? Well, that's the thing, right? He's saying that he's saying the desire by itself is not sinful.
01:23:51: And that's where the debate lies with him and the others.
01:23:55: So you would say he needs to repent of the desire.
01:23:59: Okay.
01:24:00: All right.
01:24:01: Kind of agree? Think? Yeah.
01:24:06: It's hard, though, right? Yeah.
01:24:13: And again, that becomes less, right? If it if it turns out.
01:24:17: Yeah.
01:24:19: And it's funny, because Doug Wilson, it's funny, you mentioned that Doug Wilson talks about this, you know, and there's debate about something he said about, you know, where does it? Where does it go from being a non sinful thing to a sinful thing? Like, when does a desire become sinful? Right? Like, if I, if I think a thought, does it automatically become sinful? Or do I have to dwell on it for it to become? So you know, these are questions, right? And these are legit, you know, we want to know where, where does the line come where I need to repent? You know, we talked about this in regard to lust, right? I can look at a woman and say that woman is a beautiful woman without lusting after her.
01:24:57: But I know when I've crossed that line.
01:24:59: And that's where repentance is necessary.
01:25:07: Yeah.
01:25:11: Well, we talked about the difference between sin, which is falling short and trespassing, which is going beyond the command.
01:25:18: I think that's what you're referring to there.
01:25:21: Maybe.
01:25:22: Yeah.
01:25:23: And I again, I'm not sure.
01:25:26: They got a thought or is it? Yeah.
01:25:39: Yeah.
01:25:40: Yeah.
01:25:41: So those are again, that that that's where the big issue lies.
01:25:46: There's something called SSA.
01:25:48: Have y'all heard that phrase? SSA? SSA is same sex attraction.
01:25:53: That's where that term it was coined within the within the Christian community.
01:25:57: Same sex attraction is the idea that a person can have an attraction to the same sex and it not be sinful.
01:26:03: And that's where the debate lies.
01:26:06: And like you said, obviously, that Bible that probably, as you said, probably edited by Sproul, he's saying the desire itself can be sinful or is sinful.
01:26:21: And some things we want.
01:26:22: I believe it gets a certain thing.
01:26:31: Yeah.
01:26:31: And that's dangerous.
01:26:32: Yeah.
01:26:33: And we all know people who have played on that line.
01:26:37: Wait.
01:26:39: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:26:40: We got to avoid that line altogether.
01:26:42: The Bible doesn't say get as close as you can to the line.
01:26:44: It says flee fornication, flee sexual immorality.
01:26:46: Yeah, that's true.
01:26:49: Well, here's a couple of thoughts.
01:26:50: I'll add these to the to the class notes.
01:26:52: But if you want a if you want some additional study, one of my favorite books on this subject is A Queer Thing Happened to America.
01:27:01: And it is by Michael Brown.
01:27:02: Now Michael Brown is a is a charismatic teacher.
01:27:07: So we would have some disagreement.
01:27:09: He's also not Calvinist.
01:27:10: So we would have some different disagreements.
01:27:12: But on this subject, he has researched and done a tremendous work called A Queer Thing Happened to America.
01:27:20: And I would commend it to your reading.
01:27:22: There's also a book called The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert by Rosaria Butterfield.
01:27:28: She is a former lesbian college professor, who repented and turned her life over to Christ and actually became the wife of a Presbyterian pastor, and now is a sister in Christ amazing story.
01:27:46: But that's what her book is called a The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert.
01:27:52: She was a lesbian college professor.
01:27:55: No, Rosaria Butterfield, Rosaria Butterfield.
01:28:00: She may have been I've heard of her, but I but I don't know much about her off the top of my head.
01:28:05: I've heard the name.
01:28:06: But Rosaria Butterfield also wrote a book called The Gospel comes with a house key, which is an interesting book.
01:28:11: My wife and I read that together.
01:28:12: It's about hospitality.
01:28:13: She's got some interesting views.
01:28:15: But those are two if you if you're wanting if you especially if you have somebody in your life, who deals with homosexuality, or you have somebody in your life that you're trying to minister to.
01:28:26: And I've had this happen several times here at the church where I've had people that have had different issues of sexual problems, and they need and I found these resources to be helpful, pointing them to things that they might could read or study.
01:28:39: Alright, so let me finish out tonight with this thought.
01:28:42: Tonight, we've dealt with some very difficult issues, one in which I ones in which I wouldn't doubt we've all faced in one way or another marriage and divorce, sexual sins, and even homosexuality are things we've possibly all had to encounter.
01:28:56: And it's hard to always know how to give wise counsel.
01:29:00: So may I encourage you to this, to think this way.
01:29:04: There's forgiveness, restoration, and power at the foot of the cross.
01:29:09: If a person is struggling, struggling with sin, he doesn't need us necessarily to lower the hammer on him.
01:29:14: Sometimes he needs compassion, encouragement, to make the choices which God commands.
01:29:19: So if you're dealing with somebody who's struggling with homosexuality, or dealing with someone who's committed adultery or something, yes, be honest with them.
01:29:27: Yes, point them to the fact that God says these things are sin, but love them and minister to them in such a way that you are seeking their best, not just their condemnation, because they're already condemned.
01:29:40: You that's that at this point, you're seeking that God would restore them.
01:29:44: Or if in the case of unsafe people redeem them.
01:29:47: So just consider that when you're dealing and I know we got to go back to tell this very quick story.
01:29:52: A few years ago, we had the fishing hole at the fair.
01:29:55: And some of you heard the story before, but lady walks by the fishing hole, she screams out, I'm a lesbian, and I'm going to hell and I don't care.
01:30:04: That was her phrase to us.
01:30:06: And I hollered back, I said, but I care about you.
01:30:11: She went on.
01:30:12: The next day.
01:30:15: One of our men were there, and I was there.
01:30:18: And he comes up to me and he says, Keith, he says, I was over here sharing the gospel with this lady, and she wants to talk to you.
01:30:23: I said, Okay, so I walked over there's a couple couple yards away.
01:30:28: And I realized it was the lady from the day before.
01:30:31: The lady who had screamed out, I'm a lesbian, and I'm going to hell.
01:30:37: And she was the first day, all she wanted to do was yell.
01:30:41: But now she was ready to hear and talk.
01:30:44: And she asked me, she said, If I'm gay, does that mean I'm automatically going to hell? And I said, Well, let me ask you this.
01:30:52: I said, Have you ever told a lie? And she said, Yes, I said, Okay, so what does that make you? You're a liar.
01:30:58: Okay, have you ever stolen anything? We went through that.
01:31:00: And I said, Listen, I said, The first thing you need to recognize is that you are a sinner before God.
01:31:06: Before we even deal with your the fact that you have sexual sin in your life.
01:31:10: Let's deal with the fact that by nature, you're a sinner.
01:31:13: And God calls all men everywhere and women to repent of their sin.
01:31:19: I said, and that does include your sexual sin.
01:31:22: I said, But we're talking about your whole life and your eternal life.
01:31:27: And let's talk about your life.
01:31:30: And why is it that you think that these things are right and wrong? So it allowed me because I took that approach, rather than just say, Yeah, God hates fags, you know, like the, you understand, if I would have taken that approach, I would have had no way to have a positive conversation with that woman.
01:31:49: But I ended up talking with her for about 25 minutes about the gospel.
01:31:53: And she heard the gospel, she took track, she listened, she didn't fall down on her knees and accept Jesus, but I don't know what happened to her.
01:31:59: But I know that I had an opportunity to have a positive gospel interaction.
01:32:03: Because I took an approach of love, versus an approach of condemnation.
01:32:07: So that's an important consideration when we're dealing with people in these situations.
01:32:13: Alright, so let's pray.
01:32:14: Father, I thank you for your word.
01:32:16: I thank you for your truth.
01:32:17: I pray Lord that you would use this to grow all of us to be better in our understanding of ethics, better in our understanding of the gospel, and better evangelists for Christ in Christ's name.
01:32:29: Amen.