Provoked: Responding To The Popular Argument

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00:01

Well, welcome to another episode of Provoked. I think it's our fourth episode. I'm sitting next to my wonderful, fiery, red -headed, very pregnant sister,

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Desi. How's it going? I'm doing great. How are you doing? Cool. So this is a show about what provoking you to preach the gospel, save babies, and to tear down cultural idols.

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So if you find this show helpful, which we were hoping that it's helpful for everybody, it's an aid to the church.

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It's supplemental to the work of the local church and coming alongside of our brothers and sisters in Christ and trying to do the best that we can to teach and equip them.

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But if you think it's helpful and God -glorifying, then go ahead and share that. Before we start, we want to say thank you to all the guys at Apologia, especially

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Isaac. He's worked so hard on our show. Yeah, they do so much. They work so hard and we're so thankful for them.

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And we want you to do us a favor, if you could, go to ApologiaStudios .com and please sign up to be an

00:58

All Access member. It's so awesome. Pretty please. If you do that, you're going to get an education that's second to none, very particular, very...

01:07

what's a good way to say that? Tailored in its theology or one -of -a -kind. You can't get it anywhere else.

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If you do that, you get that education and you also support the work that goes on here at Apologia Church.

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So you're Apologia Church and Apologia Studios and in abortion now. So you becoming a

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All Access member means more Christians get equipped because you're supporting the bigger vehicle of Apologia Studios and all the shows that it produces.

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More people are going to hear the gospel and more babies are going to be saved. So everything, pretty much everything that anybody does to support

01:46

Apologia Church is a worthwhile investment because it's all about furthering the kingdom, right?

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It's all for God's glory. So we'd ask you to do that and just give back.

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You know, we receive so much from the things that we learn on the internet and it's a good way to give back to Apologia by going there and becoming that All Access member.

02:06

So what's up, Des? Not to mention, it's like better than anything on TV right now. We haven't had cable in forever.

02:12

I think we ended up like cutting our cable two years ago just because our provider just kept raising their prices and we're like, forget it.

02:19

And I don't miss it at all. Like sometimes I'll go over to somebody's house and they'll have it and I'm like, oh my gosh,

02:26

I just don't miss the... It's like drinking out of a toilet. Yeah, it is. Like eating out of a dumpster.

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Most shows, I mean, not all. I'm not hating on TV too much but... I don't know. Anyways, we've just been blessed by it because you could just turn that on and there's like just such a variety of different shows next week.

02:42

You know, it's just like way better than anything on TV. So anyways, yeah. I agree. And what you got to do to get like wholesome content that you find in Apologia and you know, in a lot of other places too.

02:53

But you got to go back in time to like Little House on the Prairie. We're actually watching that right now on Amazon.

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Isn't that... I mean, if you got to go and I mean, you're really crying at episodes of Little House on the Prairie and you're really involved.

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There's something wrong with TV nowadays because you can't find that wholesome content on TV and so that's why...

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It's funny you bring that up because we've been watching like Little House all the way through because it's on Amazon Prime right now.

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And I'm pregnant and so it's like every single episode I am just a hot mess.

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I'm like, I can't do this anymore. Charles shoots a horse.

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You're like, what? And then when Charles cries, oh my gosh, forget it. Yeah. So let's talk about the coronas, the corvids, covids for a couple of months.

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The great pandemic of 2020. How are you holding up? How are your kids? How's everybody doing?

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How's everybody weathering it? We're doing well. It's hard because the kids are active and you know,

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Jude, he's got baseball. He's missing baseball season. It's fun. It's a lot. I mean, I think it's three or four nights a week commitment with his baseball and Preston when he does his basketball.

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It's two or three nights and in the moment you're like, oh man, I got all this stuff to do and then I gotta, you know, bring my kids to their sporting events and their practices.

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But then you go and you're like, man, this is fun. Yeah. So it's just kind of, it's kind of lame. Trying to get them to do stuff.

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See, I was talking to somebody about this yesterday. We here in Phoenix have a harder problem because we have to stay in, you know, we can't go to, you know, like even around our housing complex, they're marking off like the basketball courts, which is crazy.

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And like the kids play toy area, which are, or play thing area, which is crazy. But then comes the heat of the summer.

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So what we were doing is going hiking and trying to do outdoor stuff. We just went up to Sedona for a couple of days to celebrate our 20th anniversary, which is fun because it was all outdoorsy stuff, tried to fish and stuff like that.

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But when the heat comes into Phoenix, then it complicates or exacerbates the difficulty of the situation because you can't get outside.

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Right. You can't go hiking. I know. So that's why we get in the shutdown. Yeah, absolutely.

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I was thinking that too. I was like, okay, so we're, we're kind of self -quarantined in the summer months anyways, because there's not much to do.

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I mean, we, there's a lot to do as far as like, there's great places to eat here. There's a lot of jump houses.

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You can go to the movies. I mean, we still get to go out and do fun stuff, but it's like, those, those are our long months of being inside.

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And it's like, we just tacked on two months of that, you know, when we would have, you know, regularly been out, been like, this is our last, you know, couple months to go hiking, the parks, go fishing, you know, to kind of get out and do stuff.

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So. Yeah, it's hard. And it doesn't really get this hot until June. I remember like a week into June in 2017, 2018, when the hundred degree temperatures started coming in.

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We're not even into May. It's April 20, what, 9th? Yeah. And it started getting hot four or five days ago.

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So hopefully we get maybe a minor cool down before the heat wave starts. But yeah, it's hard, but God's with us and God's gonna see through us.

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And ultimately all this difficulty for the church is just sanctification. You know, it's just all character building. A couple of thoughts on, on the whole

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COVID situation, I think is the, hopefully some helpful thoughts to everybody listening is the inconsistency, the horrible inconsistency, the inconsistency that you see in the overall situation.

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You got inconsistency coming out of the news outlets, which is not necessarily a surprise, you know, it's to be expected.

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I think sadly it's inconsistency in the way spiritual leaders are navigating the situation as well.

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I think what you saw immediately is, and I'm, this is a, this is just a, an observation.

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And then of course, this doesn't apply to every pastor, every church. I'm not, that'd be crazy to say, but I think it was a quick reaction to obey whatever the state tells you to do.

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And of course, through the doctrine of the lesser magistrate, we understand no, no, we obey God rather than men.

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So what you saw was a knee -jerk reaction to say, okay, Romans 13, we have to obey the state, whatever they say, without really looking at the situation and applying biblical principles and, and making decisions proportionate to the context and the real good data that you had.

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And so that was sad to see. And I think what you see is in a lot of the

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American evangelical church, unfortunately is statism, which is state worship. It's actually the authority of the state comes above the authority of the word of God, which you can't, that's not the way it is.

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No, it's authority of the word of God. Are we supposed to be submitted to the government? Yeah, only as, only as far as they are submitted to the law of God.

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I think inconsistency in the way folks are handling, you know, the situation. And I got an example of that.

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We went to a couple of rallies down at the state Capitol downtown, and it was just a bunch of folks out there all gunned up, you know, good, good folks.

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And they were calling for the governor to open up the state to shut down the shutdown. And I, um, we actually delivered 650 petitions this morning to the governor's office.

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I walked right in there and the security guard was giving me the eye. Cause there's so many people walking in and trying to talk to the governor about the situation.

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So went up to the eighth floor and talked to the secretary and I said, Hey, I got 650 petitions.

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Uh, we respectfully asked the governor to open the state back up, shut down the shop, shut down the shutdown.

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You know, we need to love our neighbor, all of our neighbors. Cause it's not only unfortunately those who are suffering from, uh, the virus, but this is killing our neighbors economically, you know, with people losing their jobs.

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So she was smiley and we're going to do our best to, um, I think we're going to send her some flowers and just say, we appreciate you.

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And you know, when, because they have, if you saw that rally, they were being pretty rough with the governor.

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And, uh, uh, I think that you got to speak the truth, but I think you got to speak the truth in love.

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You know, it's better to win people. And in winning them, I'm not saying we compromise the content of the message.

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It's still, this is what we need to say to you, but we can say it in love. We could say it with grace and kindness.

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So that's what we're going to work on through our, our attempts there. Um, but at the rally, some inconsistency

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I saw was there were, there were nurses. And I don't necessarily know if these were real nurses, but they were standing in front of everybody with faith, face masks on as a way of protesting our desire to shut down the shutdown.

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You know, they think that we need to keep it, keep it going. But they were also protesting the fact that we weren't observing like six foot distances and social distancing issues, which nobody, nobody was, but the inconsistent inconsistency in that.

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And I actually talked to one of them and they wouldn't talk to me. I said, why aren't you guys out in front of the Walmarts or why aren't you out in front of Costco?

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Right. You know, because you see all of what we are doing happening all throughout the day.

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I mean, people are, they are wearing masks and Costco and, but you see very close. I mean, even in, even in their attempts to do that six foot social distance, uh, marker on the ground with the stickers and stuff like that doesn't really, it's not really achievable.

10:03

Right. Um, so anyway, I liked, uh, I saw people there when I was, I didn't go, but I was watching you guys online and I noticed there was some of the people that were either nurses or dressed up as nurses with signs that say, stay home.

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Like, um, are you home? Yeah. Inconsistency inconsistencies.

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That's what I'm saying. So I, I was thinking, how do we get back on that path of consistency? And I said it a lot during last show.

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Um, but it's, it's focusing on the certainty of what we know to be true about God and the absolute certainty that we find in the sum total of his word.

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And if we do that, if we focus on what we know to be true about God, apply that to our decision -making and our thought process, critically think about things through the filter of what we know about God and what we know about his word, then that will also, that will lead to consistency, a total consistency of thought, which leads to a total consistency of action.

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So of course, those outside of the faith, of course, they're rebels against God, enemies with God. This really applies to the

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Christian church that we really need to apply, not just the pandemic, but all throughout life, be consistent in the way that we think about, you know, the trials and afflictions.

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Cause the scriptures say as Christians, we're destined for afflictions. These things are ultimately for good, but I think we have to respond with good principles and a calm and a collected sense of, um, response to something.

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And, and again, our actions have to be a proportionate to solid and good information. Yeah. I like what, um, pastor

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James says, he says, inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.

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Exactly. It is. And when you're inconsistent, I think it leads to failure in, in, in all areas of life.

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Uh, but as Christians, we can be consistent. We can be calm through the storm. We can be, we can be confident when everybody else is failing around us.

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Number one is we don't fear death. You know, so much of this is the fear of death. I can't tell you how many people

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I've talked to in the past couple of weeks at evangelistic events, abortion clinics, even at the rallies, we're like, get away from me.

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You know, I need you to observe the six foot. And I was immediately, you know, respectful of that, but it's this fear of death, you know, but as Christians, we don't, we don't fear death.

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Yeah. We don't fear man. We can, as the scriptures say, we can sleep sweetly because our lives are hidden in Christ.

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Right. We know our days are numbered and we're not going to die a second before God has already numbered that day.

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That's what Schaefer said. I think you're immortal. Whitfield. Whitfield said that. Yeah. You're immortal until that appointment.

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Until that divine appointment with God. So anyway, I hope that was helpful for you. And I think we're just going to get on with the, um, the overall purpose of the show.

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So what we're going to do in the following with the following time that we have, and I think last episode was an hour and a half.

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It was our third episode. And before I get into this one, uh, we, we enjoyed that conversation that we had with Bill Rooney, just a super sweet guy, and he's going to be on next episode.

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So, um, that was a good kind of cutting our teeth, getting our feet wet when it comes to these exchanges. I saw a lot of, um, areas that I can improve on.

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I think there was a lot of issues that, that went untouched when they should have been actually,

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I'm going through that and just, you know, marking out, oh, he said this and he said this. And I think that we need to address these rather than just trudge forward.

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And so it'll be a little bit more structured, I think, in the sense that we are going to debate the issues. I think last, you know, we did kinda, but it was more cordial.

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Yeah. It was more, um, you know, just introductory. It's kind of broad, you know, it was kind of a more of a broad exchange where we didn't dive into some of the intricacies of the actual conversation.

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And I think some of that has to do with, like you said, our inexperience in like interviewing. I mean, we talk to people on the streets all the time, but it's a different, it's a different format than a debate.

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So, um, yeah, but I think I'm looking forward to talking to him again and getting to hear more of what, having him expound on some of his thoughts.

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Yeah. And just to tell you, Bill, if you're listening to this, I have never come across a more respectful pro -choicer.

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Yeah. And somebody that can keep his emotions in check. Have you ever? No. I mean, even as we shared the gospel with him, we were sharing all the different, uh, tough components of the gospel and he did, you know, he just really maintained such a great sense of composure.

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Yeah, definitely. I appreciate that a lot. So yeah, I like the guy a lot and I'm, I'm looking forward to kind of going at it again with him, uh, next week.

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So the purpose of the show this week is we are going to talk to a woman named

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Kay in Australia. Of course, that's not her real name. We're going to hold her real name confidential. So she's a young woman from Australia on our program and we're actually not going to talk to her, uh, like I'm talking to you.

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Yeah. We're going to talk to her through a message that she left us. So Kay was going to come on our show and do what

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Bill did. He, she was going to have just a civil and a respectful back and forth, uh, debate conversation about abortion, but she feels like she can't come on the show right now.

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Um, which we completely respect, but what we want to do, what she did is she sent us a pretty lengthy, not too lengthy

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Facebook messenger message about the reasons. Um, but she also in that message kind of laid out a case and told us what she had gone through.

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And so what we're going to do is we're going to deal with the content and the claims of what she has said in this message.

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And she actually invited us. So just so you know, she gave us this message and said, guys, they can't come on the show right now, but here are my thoughts about abortion.

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I know these, this, it's not the sum total of all her thoughts on the issue, but she did make many claims and ask questions in this message.

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And so she allowed us to go through it. And so that's what we're going to go through today. Now, as a warning, unfortunately, and you know, horrifically

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Kay has been raped. And, uh, the main reason why she feels as though that she can't come on the show is because of that issue.

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And she said that she experienced a lot of abuse from pro -lifers, uh, because of that, of course we would never condone any type of abuse on anybody, but she does get a little graphic and a descriptive and what she experienced through that rape.

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So if your little babies or little kiddos are listening in as you're driving around, mom, uh, it, this may not be the best show for them to listen to.

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It's only a couple, I think it's three pretty tough words, uh, that she says. And so we don't want to edit what she says.

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We don't want to edit when anybody says, actually, we, I've talked to a lot of pro -choicers and pro -aborts and one of the main reasons why they feel like they can't come on the show is because they think that we're going to edit out what they say or manipulate the conversation, distort it somehow and create our own kind of meta narrative or our own type of, um, story, which we don't want to be guilty of doing.

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We would never do that. So what we, what that entails is us to read verbatim what she says.

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And as you listen to the forthcoming debates, of course, we would never edit any of those. You're going to take, you're going to get it as we, as we receive it.

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Right. Right. So big warning today, there's going to be some difficult, um, difficult stuff to talk to, you know, to, to talk about difficult, difficult stuff to kind of process.

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So what I'm going to do right now, and, and I don't know if you want to say a couple of things, I'm going to read through her response to us.

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Um, do you have anything to say before I do that? No, go ahead. I'm sure, you know, after we, after we get through it, then

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I'll kind of give my thoughts, but just to summarize again, I'm reading through the response of a woman named

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Kay from Australia, and she was going to come on the show. She decided not to, and this is the response she gave us via messenger.

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And she wanted us to share this with you. We're going to go through it and kind of answer questions and break down what she says.

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So this is, this is Kay speaking here. She says, I have to drop out of the podcast.

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I'm not in a mentally good place anymore to discuss the issue. I've tried to reach out to people like yourselves recently who want to abolish abortion.

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I've been civil and asking the questions, how will this be enforced? How will you be able to tell if a miscarriage, if it is a miscarriage or home abortion?

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What about out of state? What will happen if a woman does not, or sorry, does abort via coat hanger?

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What about rape? I've had generic responses, but a few who really hit home are the ones who say, even when raped, no abortion.

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This really hits home for me as I was raped violently, ended up pregnant. The conversations afterwards have been disturbing.

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I will say this movement scares the shit out of me from the discussions I've had. I express what

19:04

I went through and have been called a liar. And then she says, this is my story. Very few people know what it's like being held down crying while somebody violates your body, having your legs forced open, tears rolling down your cheeks as some monster gets off violently using you, having bruises all over your body, his handprints left on you, sitting at the bottom of the shower, crying and scrubbing your skin raw to try and wash him away, only to find out his seed is in you.

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Afterwards finding out I was carrying that scum's DNA. I can't describe that feeling. I couldn't try and move forward with my life and heal because of this.

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This daily reminder of what he did to you. I literally woke up every day crying because I was pregnant with this monster's seed.

19:48

To me it felt like I was being raped again knowing he was inside me. One person downplayed that, telling me there was no way

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I could feel like that, like dictating how I should have felt. I just wanted closure, but people like you wanted to force me to live through more trauma.

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Your side keeps telling me the punishment shouldn't have been the rapist, not the baby. Well, he was never caught.

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It didn't matter my mental well -being to these people. I had somebody tell me I could have gotten help and that was why they protested the clinic.

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My experience walking in to get my abortion was hardly met by support until I got inside.

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Making my way to the clinic, I had people calling me a murderer, a slut, a whore. One reason I volunteer as an escort now.

20:30

Again, I was called a liar because at the protests there they were at people didn't do that.

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Sorry. Again, downplaying my... I think she had a grammatical error. Let me say that again.

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Again, I was called a liar because at the protests there were people doing that. Again, downplaying my personal experience because you know they know it all.

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I also had another tell me about the time her rooster raped a chicken and how the chicken ended up caring for the chick.

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I was compared to a rooster rape. They said in the end the chicken ended up loving the chick. Well, a chicken doesn't have a thought process.

21:05

I was told I should have kept to adopt. I should have kept the baby to adopt out. It's like nobody was listening or cared about how

21:12

I felt at the time. The trauma from my rape was extensive and just so you're aware, this is rough right here.

21:18

I had bruises for weeks. My vagina had tears in my anus because he used things on me. I lived in the shower crying and washing.

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I resented what's growing inside me, but your side doesn't care. It was a monster inside me.

21:32

A pregnancy should be a happy time in a woman's life shared with the ones she loves. The only way

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I was able to start the healing was to get the abortion. I had closure knowing he was not inside me anymore.

21:45

I will say again, the abolish abortion movement terrifies me. If abortion was illegal at the time like your side wants,

21:52

I would have ended up killing myself. I couldn't handle it. I've tried to share my story with some of your side to maybe give a different perspective, but was met with laughs and ridicule being called a liar.

22:04

I was shown pictures of supposed abortions trying to guilt me or something, but I have no regrets.

22:09

It made me feel sick. I put myself out there opening up old wounds to shed a and this is what happens.

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I'm by far a man -hating feminist, but it was mostly men who mocked and laughed as well. I'm not in the right mindset to go on the show anymore because I'm scared and don't want to put myself through being mocked again.

22:27

I don't deserve to have my experience mocked and be called a liar. It's made me feel like I didn't matter.

22:33

Me as a living, breathing person, the only thing that mattered was the fetus, which is why I'm pro -choice.

22:38

Abortion isn't a black and white issue. She says there is no pro -abort. I don't want to force anyone into something.

22:46

I'm there to support women in the choice they make, whether it is an abortion, adoption, or even carrying the pregnancy.

22:53

I hope you can understand and appreciate this, but as I've said before, some of the people on your side terrify me with the way they think.

23:01

And that is a conclusion of what Kay has said. And just to start off, and I think you'll start off at the very same moment, is this rape is absolutely horrible,

23:15

Kay. We are so sorry that you went through this abusive and evil experience.

23:23

As I read that, I've read it now multiple times, it breaks my heart because you're created in the image of God as a young woman and you have dignity and you should be created or you should be treated with honor, especially sexually by a man in a marriage where that is lawful according to God's law and where that is healthy and where that's right.

23:47

And so for somebody to violate you like he did is absolutely unacceptable.

23:53

It's absolutely wrong and it's horrible. You have anything? Yeah, I just echo your thoughts.

24:01

It's just, it's wicked and evil and I can't even imagine being in that situation.

24:08

And we definitely sympathize with you and are sad that that happened.

24:15

So yeah, I think it's, and I know you're going to segue into starting to respond, but yeah, we first just want to say sorry that that happened to you.

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We're so deeply sorry that you had to go through that wicked, evil thing that happened to you and we're thankful that there is a

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God that is just and that even if that man never gets caught, justice will be served.

24:39

Absolutely. And we're here for you too. If you're hearing this and you would like our help, that's what we do as a

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Christian church is we come along people alongside of people and we try to love them and help them heal, heal according to God's word.

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And that is available to you. All you have to do is message us. You have my messenger. We want to help you out with that.

24:59

Again, we, we grieve with you. We're heartbroken because you've had to go through this, this unimaginable experience that we can't even imagine.

25:09

And so we're, we're sorry. According to God's word, rape is absolutely evil and wicked.

25:17

And you can find healing. And again, it's, it's not necessarily an overnight process or experience, but true healing for you.

25:27

Okay. Uh, comes through Christ as you turn from sin and as you would embrace

25:32

Christ Jesus as Lord and savior, then all things become new. Uh, he gives you a new heart that begins to love the things that God loves and hates the thing that hates the things that God hates.

25:44

The Bible says that we become new creations in Christ. And, and through that process, you do find healing from a great loving father of a

25:52

God. And that's what we want. Mostly for UK, we want you to know Jesus to say, we want you to know the, the abundant life in Christ.

25:59

So overflowing joy of being in family with God, being a daughter of God and inheriting eternal life.

26:07

Rape is the main subject on the show today. Of course, rape is evil because we all know that God exists, right?

26:16

Rape is evil because the law of God is written on our hearts and it's internally informing us that rape is wrong and wicked and evil.

26:24

It's because God has imprinted his law on our hearts. He's, he's given us our conscience and therefore we know what is evil and what is, what is not.

26:34

Uh, rape is evil because we have an objective standard for morality revealed in the law of God, which really finds its basis in God's Holy character.

26:42

Rape is evil because we have that standard of morality of, and that is, you know, one of the big proofs and evidence that God exists.

26:49

Of course, if God did not exist and we are only the process or the product of random chance processes, then there would be no basis for an objective standard of morality, of justice, of love, beauty, whatever it may be, right?

27:04

Um, the evilness of rape, it really only makes, ultimately makes sense within the framework of a

27:11

Christian worldview, the evilness of it. Uh, it's an evil act of purposefully abusing and injuring an innocent human being for selfish reasons.

27:22

That's what rape is. Rape is the evil, wicked act of purposefully abusing and injuring an innocent human being for selfish reasons.

27:31

And that is the same reason we hate abortion because abortion is purposefully abusing, injuring, and a step further, according to God's law, it's murdering an innocent human being primarily for selfish reasons.

27:50

Now, just so you know, okay. And I think my sister alluded to that about the justice of God, a rapist once proven guilty in a court of law should quickly receive the death penalty.

28:02

Deuteronomy 22, 25 says, but if in the open country, a man meets a young woman who was betrothed and the man seizes her and lies with her forcefully, uh, you know, uh, cause, you know, forcefully takes advantage of her and, you know, and rapes her sexually uses her.

28:19

Then only the man who lay with her shall die. So we need a state that adheres to God's standards of just punishment, right?

28:31

All states, all governments, all nations, all Kings, all presidents, prime ministers, if they would only abide by the law of God, it will equal happier and healthier society.

28:44

Right. If, if, if, if dudes knew that raping a woman, a man, or a child would result in quick capital punishment, then there would be a whole lot of whole lot less rapes happening, right?

29:00

And that's God's standard of justice. God's law acts as a restrainer of the evil in the hearts of men.

29:07

And the just punishment for this wickedness restrains the hearts of men from doing it, right?

29:14

You know, again, his punishment, he has, you get into the study of peanut penology and the scriptures and the way that God administers just punishment.

29:24

Um, it's the right, it's the right standard. It's the way that we should govern our, our world. Yeah. And if, uh, if that doesn't happen here while he's alive, he will stand before God in judgment and be held accountable for that wicked act.

29:37

Exactly. If he doesn't repent and come to Yeah. It's so, it's so disheartening. And I like what

29:44

R .C. Sproul said. He said, man, I just couldn't live as an atheist because every, all the injustices perpetrated all throughout history would be left open ended.

29:54

He didn't say that, but, um, they, there would be, I mean, there were, you know, in a, in a world where God is not the creator, of course, that's an unimaginable world.

30:04

We can't even contemplate that because everything finds its basis in God being, uh, the foundation of all things.

30:13

Everything flows out of who he is. Right. Right. He's, you know, the pre the very preconditions of intelligibility have to find their source in God and him alone.

30:24

So you can't really fathom a godless world because you can't account for anything. You know, of course, like we always hear an apology of the laws of logic, uniformity, uniformity of nature, but you can't even account for anything in creation outside of God being the very source of it.

30:42

All things from flowing through from him, through him and to him. Um, I'm really,

30:48

I'm really happy that, yes, as hard as it is to, to read that and to hear it.

30:53

I'm very thankful for her, um, writing that out so we can discuss it because this is a really, really important subject for Christians to be able to talk about and to discuss, um, in a biblical way and have a biblical response because, um,

31:09

I just saw, um, a recent Gallup poll showed that nearly 80 % of Americans believe abortion should be legal in the case of rape or incest.

31:18

Even president Trump, uh, said this in a tweet and he says, as most people know, and for those who would like to know,

31:24

I am strongly pro -life with three exceptions, rape, incest and protecting the life of the mother, the same position taken by Ronald Reagan.

31:34

And so this is the chestnut argument of not just the pro -choice movement because you ask a pro -choicer, they'll bring that up a lot and they'll say, you know, what about in the case of rape?

31:45

And you say, okay, so are you, before I answer that, are you only for abortion in the case of rape or incest?

31:53

I've never met one pro -choicer that said yes. They say no, it's a choice regardless of what happens.

31:59

But pro -lifers will say, um, in the case of incest or rape, this is

32:05

Donald Trump, even Ronald Reagan, they are saying it is okay to murder a child when this happens.

32:14

So this is a, this is such a foundational thing that I believe has been perpetuating and keeping abortion alive and well in America.

32:21

And we Christians need to know how to respond to it. We need to know how to call it what it is.

32:28

And rape, uh, abortion in the case of rape is still murder, right? It's still murder.

32:33

It's like, um, Proverbs 18 21 says death is in the power of the tongue. This is causing how many people to die every year?

32:42

Because in this, uh, let's see, what is this percentage? It says, uh, 93 % of all abortions in the

32:49

U S are performed on healthy mothers with healthy babies, less than 1 % are performed because of rape or incest.

32:57

And so because of this 1%, that's still, I mean, we're talking about the humanity of a child. The child is either a child is a child regardless of the circumstances surrounding conception, or if there was rape or, or not the baby in the womb is either a human or they're not human.

33:15

But because of this, um, this exception, it's causing people to, uh, step back and go, well, wait a minute.

33:24

Even people that are pro -life that inherently know that abortion is wrong are going, but because of this wicked act, then murder is okay.

33:34

So we need to call, we need to call it what it is. We need to be able to defend it.

33:40

We need to be consistent because, but I can't even say this because of our inconsistency.

33:47

This is why abortion has been going on for as long as it has been since Roe and the pro -life movement has failed.

33:54

One of the many reasons. Um, so I'm excited because if this is such an important thing that we

34:00

Christians need to step up and get right and know how to respond and not to be an abusive jerk about it and not, it makes me sad that this poor woman went through that and had people who were saying they were pro -life totally disregarding and abusing her and not approaching it in a way to explain to her why, uh, her abortion was still wrong.

34:25

Um, in a loving way, still not neglecting the fact that she had, she went through a horrible wicked thing, but it didn't make the abortion, the killing of her child.

34:34

Okay. And it didn't do anything to rectify the situation. Killing the child does not bring justice to the, the father.

34:43

So anyways, those are my thoughts. It's good. No, no. When we'll, we'll kind of repeat those is cause we're going to go through and, uh, for the remainder of the time and just kind of break up what she said to address the claims and answer the questions.

34:52

But, um, you know, hopefully it's going to be helpful for people out there on the streets trying to rescue babies, abortion clinics.

34:59

So what if we could like record every single time somebody came up to us and said, what about rate?

35:05

What about rape on the streets or in conversations? And we could, we could like string all of those occurrences in one video.

35:13

It'd be pretty lengthy because the rape issue comes up constantly. And it's something that immediately, whether you're a

35:21

Christian or a non -Christian immediately, it appeals to your emotions. And like, I don't, I don't know anybody, I'm sure there's sick people out there that would say,

35:29

Oh yeah, rape's okay. I've never met anybody that's like, yeah, rape is okay. Everybody immediately was like,

35:34

Oh no, that's terrible. And so immediately you, you go into an emotional response instead of looking at God's law, who

35:43

God says we are, that we are our humanity, regardless of, you know, the circumstances surrounding conception.

35:50

So yeah, it just, it's that, that, um, what's it called when you switch the subject gaslighting?

35:57

Oh, anyways. Yeah. It's just going from, from one subject to another kind of switching it from the humanity of the child to the circumstances.

36:06

Yeah. It's like a red herring. So you hold up a red herring. So you can go a different direction. And that's, that's true,

36:11

I think. And we'll get into a little bit, but immediately when you hear that, Oh, what about rape? You know, it's an emotional,

36:17

Oh, a rapist is a horrible, evil person. And so by proxy, the child must be so,

36:23

Oh, it's okay to kill the baby because it's the rapist baby. So I think it's, it's the son or the daughter's guilty for the crimes of the father.

36:34

And then, and I think ultimately though, it's a way of getting back at the father.

36:39

It's saying you're a rapist. Well, we're going to kill your baby, you know, as a means of punishment towards you.

36:45

So, and of course these things, this is faulty thinking it's unbiblical thinking it's inconsistent thinking, but I'm just trying to my mind around why people have such a knee jerk reaction to say,

36:55

Oh yeah, abortion, even at the highest position in our country or our own president. So let's go through what she says.

37:02

And we're going to kind of reiterate or I think I repeat a lot of the answers that we just gave, but she says

37:09

I've been civil and asking questions and her big qualm is with the abolish abortion issue.

37:18

And we're definitely abolitionists. We believe that abortion needs to be abolished immediately with no compromise, with not regulated, with no terms, with no nothing like that.

37:32

It should be immediately outlawed. All sin should be immediately killed and forsaken and put to death.

37:39

And so should abortion. So she says in the framework of the abolitionist movement, she says, how will this be enforced if abortion is a media immediately outlawed, which we're all praying it would happen.

37:53

And our answer is of course, abortion is murder. So it should be penalized as murder within the framework of a specific state's judicial system.

38:02

Right. So how should it be enforced? It should be enforced as murder because we're talking about the brutal butchery and the systematic slaughtering of innocent human beings.

38:12

Right. So you enforce it like you would enforce a murder. Yeah. Just like, just like any other murder. I mean, basic embryology tells us that a baby is alive at the moment of conception.

38:24

And of course, God's word tells us that we are created and he knows us before we're even conceived in Proverbs.

38:31

But yeah, we know that at the moment of conception, this is a unique individual with his or her own

38:37

DNA. So we just want that. That's how it would be processed is just as any other person that has had this crime committed against them.

38:47

Yeah. Good. Good answer. How will you be able to tell if it is a miscarriage or home abortion?

38:53

So a mother who murders a baby would have to be proven guilty of the crime just as a murderer would have to be proven guilty of murder in a court of law.

39:04

Yeah. Go ahead. You can go ahead. I concluded. This one gets me a little emotionally riled up just because I've had two miscarriages.

39:13

You guys have had a miscarriage and to compare, and I actually don't think that Kay is doing that in this case, but I've had it repeatedly happen where people will compare a spontaneous miscarriage or what's called like medically a spontaneous abortion with a premeditated abortion.

39:31

They're two different things. Can you imagine going up to a parent that lost their child and say a car accident or by cancer and then telling them that their child's death is the same as the mother who drowned her daughter in the bath?

39:46

It's just infuriating. I mean, we would have done anything to keep our babies that we lost.

39:52

So to compare miscarriage, even Planned Parenthood has done this recently where they compared miscarriage to abortion.

40:00

It is not the same thing. It is a premeditated killing. But she's asking, I don't think that's what she's doing.

40:06

I just, I'd kind of go off on that side just because I've heard it so many times. Well, how many times have we heard, what about a miscarriage at the abortion clinic?

40:13

Yeah, that's a baby dying of natural causes, or maybe there's an accident where a mom gets in a car accident and the baby's lost that way.

40:21

That's completely different than a premeditated killing. But to answer her question, I would say, well, a mom could suffocate her child and then act like the baby died of SIDS or something.

40:35

I don't know. But that's what we say. That's when the state comes in and investigates and says, no, this child was obviously and clearly murdered.

40:43

This wasn't because of natural causes. Right. Exactly. So it just takes the same type of investigative work any type of homicide would require.

40:52

But I think that the simple answer to that is that when a miscarriage happens, this is a part of the will of God.

40:59

But God reserves the right, the scriptures say, to give life and to take it. And abortion is the murdering of a human being that man has no right to do.

41:10

That's the difference. God choosing to do it and all God's ways are righteous. All of his decrees are righteous.

41:16

The Bible says all of his doings are righteous, even as he chooses miscarriage.

41:21

Right. Yeah. But he's good in doing that. Man is evil and going into the womb with stainless steel instruments and ripping apart a baby.

41:30

Yeah. They're not the same thing. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's just so frustrating.

41:35

It's like, OK, well, people die every day of sickness or accidents. And it's sad.

41:41

And we, of course, mourn when people die. But we know it's wicked when somebody comes in and shoots up a school or the neighbor shoots his wife or whatever it is, whatever the murder is.

41:51

We know that wasn't, you know, that was an unlawful act of wickedness.

41:57

Right. So exactly good. What about out of state? A lot of the stuff we'll just kind of move through quickly just so we can try to get it all in.

42:04

What about out of state? So what if a woman murders her child out of state? Well, murder should be penalized regardless of the state that it takes place.

42:12

Right. Right. Yeah, that's pretty. What will happen if a woman does abort via coat hanger?

42:20

She should be penalized for murder. She's using a long metal tool to murder her baby.

42:25

So anyone uses a tool, whether it be a coat hanger, a hammer, pickaxe, whatever it may be to kill another human being should be punished for murder.

42:34

But this is the big question that we get all the time. If it's criminalized, we're going to have to resort to what they say is like caveman times or black back alley abortion, back alley abortions.

42:43

What if back alley abortions? Okay, so we we criminalize abortion today.

42:49

What if women start using coat hangers tomorrow? So again, it's an emotional plea. But how would you answer that?

42:55

Well, they will. That's the thing is because if somebody is bent on murdering, they're going to murder. I know that it being illegal would stop that would not not completely stop it.

43:06

There's always going to be people that are going to kill. I mean, murdering murder is illegal right now, if you're out of the womb.

43:13

And most murderers find a way to do the murder in to kill the person in secret, right?

43:19

They take them to a back alley, they do it in a forest. So when somebody typically wants to commit a crime, they usually try to do it discreetly so they don't get caught.

43:28

Right, right. It'd be like and tell me if this is right, it'd be like a murder who murders with guns all the time.

43:34

Yeah, he's just a serial killer, and he's going shooting everybody up. And then they say, man, what you're doing is wrong, you can be put away for it.

43:41

And he says, Well, if you take what we're going to take your guns away, well, you take my guns away, you know, if you take the guns away from murderers, what if they use hatchets?

43:50

Yeah. Oh, okay, we're gonna go ahead and we're gonna, we are going to make murder legal now.

43:57

Yeah, because murderers are going to use hatchets instead of guns, right? Or it's like, doesn't logically fall through.

44:04

Yeah. All right. Or what if we were talking about child molestation? We're like, well, people are still going to molest children, they're just going to do it in secret.

44:12

So we should make it legal. Of course, they do it in secret, because they know it's abominable. They know it's legal, and they know it's culturally not acceptable.

44:22

So I'm sure Can you imagine if child molestation was legal? What would happen?

44:28

It would be just all over the place. Yeah, yeah.

44:34

Okay, so what about rape? And that's ultimately what we're talking and talking about the quick answer for you in front of the abortion clinic is you you typically don't have a lot of time to talk to people.

44:44

Quick answer is a child should not pay for the crimes the father. We don't kill the kids of criminals because they do wicked things.

44:55

We never do that. I mean, can you imagine a guy raping a woman? And well, you know, why would you stop at the baby in the womb?

45:02

And why not kill his one year old or his two year old? You know, they're both developing human beings. So the child is not guilty of a crime by proxy.

45:13

They are not guilty of a crime, the crimes of their father that they did not commit. So she goes on to say,

45:18

I've had generic responses, but a few who really hit home are the ones who say even when raped, no abortion.

45:24

This really hits home for me as I was raped, violently ended up pregnant. The conversations afterwards have been disturbing.

45:30

I will say this movement scares the shit out of me. From the discussions I've had, I express what I went through and have been called a liar.

45:37

So we want to tell you we're not calling you a liar. The Bible says that love believes all things and we generally love you.

45:45

We want the best for you. We want you to know Christ. We want you to be saved. We want you to be set free from the slavery of your sins.

45:52

That's what our heart beats for daily. We're not calling you a liar and you need to be proven guilty of lying too, just as any transgression against the law of God.

46:04

And we're not in a place capable of doing that. So we're not calling you a liar. What we're doing is we're grieving with you and what we're trying to do is answer your questions based upon the wisdom of the scriptures, hoping and praying that the truth will set you free, that the gospel truth will set you free.

46:23

She goes on to say very few people know what it's like being held down crying while somebody violates your body, having your legs forced open, tears rolling down your cheeks, as a monster gets off violently using you.

46:36

I'm so sorry for this. This is just so wicked and so horrible. Having bruises all over your body, has handprints left on you, sitting at the bottom of a shower, crying and scrubbing your skin, trying to skin rot to try to wash them away, only to find out his seed is now in you.

46:49

Afterwards, finding out I was carrying that scum's DNA. I can't describe that feeling.

46:55

So what we see here in this, and of course, I'm only going to respond to a section of what she said. And of course, we're grieving for the pain that she went through.

47:01

But here's the dehumanizing of the child, right? Afterwards, finding out

47:07

I was carrying that scum's DNA. Well, you were carrying his child. But Kay, you were also carrying your child as well.

47:17

Rape is evil, but the innocent child in the womb, it's not inherently evil, even though they are the offspring of the rapist.

47:27

And like I said, we don't kill the kids of criminals just because their father was a criminal. It doesn't logically fall that a child of a criminal should die for crimes he did not commit.

47:34

So I know we've already said that. But that's what you've seen all throughout history when a specific people group is dehumanized within a particular populace, dehumanized.

47:46

You saw that 150 years ago during the slave trade. Blacks were less than human.

47:53

Blacks could not feel pain. 20th century, mid -20th century Germany, of course, Jews were less than human.

47:59

Not only the Jews, though. I mean, Russians were less than human. Homosexuals were less than human.

48:05

The mentally impaired, the disabled, they were less than human. So we know that as you dehumanize what is human, a particular segment of society, and what

48:15

Hitler did is he drew a circle around those segments of society and he deemed them subhuman.

48:20

It's open game on that particular part of the populace that's dehumanized.

48:27

And that is why we compare Hitler's Germany, America's slave trade to the abortion movement because it's so similar.

48:37

Because what they have done now is they have dehumanized what we know, we all know to be human.

48:43

And so we just want to give that to you, Kay, that this was not just some DNA inside of you.

48:49

That was your child. She says, I couldn't try and move forward. And you can interrupt me whenever you want, if you have things to add.

48:55

I couldn't try and move forward with my life and heal because of this. And that's a pretty operative word that I want to talk about here.

49:02

She repeats this daily reminder of what he did to you.

49:09

I literally woke up every day crying because I was pregnant with that monster seed. To me, it felt like I was being raped again, knowing what was inside me.

49:15

One person downplayed that telling me there was no way I could feel like that, like dictating how

49:21

I should have felt. So the responses that she has gotten from pro -lifers are crazy.

49:28

I mean, calling her a slut and a whore and screaming at her. And I've never in my almost 10 years of work here have ever seen that happen.

49:38

No legitimate pro -lifer abolitionist has such hateful and unloving things. Now, that doesn't mean that that didn't happen to her.

49:46

So again, I'm not calling you a liar, Kay. All I'm saying is that in our experience, we have never heard a woman treated like this.

49:52

And we would, especially at Apologia Church and Apologia Ministries and Abortion Now, we would immediately distance ourselves from any type of pro -lifer abolitionists who would treat another person like that.

50:05

And openly rebuke them. If we heard it happening, we would rebuke them. Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

50:12

That's absolutely what we do. And again, that's not to negate that that could have happened to you, but we as a ministry would never associate with people like that.

50:21

There are people up in Seattle that, and you can look on YouTube, they operate like this.

50:27

They're actually called the Hell Shaking Street Preachers. And they have some abortion work and they are absolutely unbalanced.

50:36

They're zealous, but it's a zeal lacking in knowledge. It's an unbalanced methodology, biblical methodology of evangelism.

50:43

They're just, you whore, you slut, you should be killed. You should burn in hell. It's like that saying, a sword in the hand of the lunatic is like a person that has zeal without knowledge.

50:54

That's good. That's exactly right. So that exists out there and you can see it in YouTube, but we as a ministry, we would immediately distance ourself from that.

51:01

That's unbalanced. That's unloving. And ultimately, not to get into the weeds here, 1 Corinthians 13, we have not loved and all of our efforts are absolutely futile.

51:11

I just wanted to stop for a second, just for the Christian right now that's listening, that's like really still having a hard time with this because they're thinking about just the gravity of being raped and how wicked that is.

51:24

And they're still kind of unsure if this should be the exception. So one of the things that, so what was the three things?

51:32

It was rape, incest, and the life of the mother.

51:37

Life of the mother, I think that's pretty simple. The goal would always be to save both, right? I think the surgeon general said there's never a reason when it comes to the life of a mother to kill the baby.

51:49

There's never a reason to abort. You may have to deliver and in that delivering, if you deliver early, the child may die as a result, but never abortion.

51:59

Yeah, of course. And just not to interrupt you. Well, yeah, kind of interrupt you. That's okay. We've talked to a couple of doctors and it's not, the doctor said, and nurses, they said in a situation, in a problematic situation, urgent situation, they never say to a pregnant woman, okay, we have to help the woman.

52:16

She's going into distress or she's coding, let's kill the baby. They've never heard that. You deliver the baby.

52:22

And unfortunately in that process, if the baby died, that's tragedy, but it's not, let's go kill the baby.

52:28

The other thing is rape or incest. But if you're starting to really come to terms that even in these cases, it's still murder, you have to just really ask yourself right now as you're struggling through this, as you're kind of working through it, you're going to have to think who created the child.

52:46

Was it the rapist or God? Right. Good, good point. So just for the sake of time,

52:51

I know this episode is running a little long, but I do want to address a couple of the things that she said.

52:57

She says, I just want closure, but people like you wanted to force me to live through more trauma.

53:02

And we just want to tell any woman out there who has the abortion, you will never find closure in killing your own baby and paying for your baby to be murdered.

53:11

That is not the path to closure. It's not the path to healing. She says, but people like you wanted to force me to live through more trauma.

53:18

Now this is a textbook straw man fallacy where you set up, you create a position that the other side doesn't have, and then you go down and you try to attack that position.

53:29

Of course, we don't want anyone to live through trauma. That's just a misrepresentation of our mission.

53:35

I don't know if she did that in a calculated way, but we understand rape is incalculably, and now

53:43

I can't talk. I gave it to you. It's traumatic. It is. Rape is.

53:49

But having your baby murdered, it only adds insult to injury and compounds the misery brought on by the baby.

53:55

So it's completely opposite of what she thinks that we're there to do. It's not to force her to live through more trauma.

54:02

It's to try to keep her from living in the horrible trauma of having your baby killed and all of the flood of detrimental consequences that were poured out upon the life of the mother when she goes through that.

54:13

We're trying to hold back all of that shame and despair and increase chances of suicide, emotional, physical toil.

54:22

We're trying to keep her from that. I like what Pastor Jeff says. He says rape is wrong for the same reason that abortion is wrong.

54:30

You're doing to somebody else's body what they ought not do. Like somebody else is overpowering somebody and doing something they ought not do to a weaker individual.

54:39

Have you ever read the Anna Ritchie story? It's called I Am the Exception. So she was a victim of rape and incest, ended up having children through her rapist and her story of becoming a

54:54

Christian through it and the joy these children have brought her and the healing she found in Christ.

54:59

And anyways, it's really good if you ever want to read it. I actually had a couple friends that were Christian but were still struggling with this going,

55:06

I just don't see how I could force somebody that was raped to carry that baby. And after reading her testimony, they changed their mind.

55:12

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So there's a lot more to be said. I'm only going to touch on a few more things just so we can wrap this thing up.

55:19

But she says, I had somebody tell me I could have gotten help and that was why they protest at the clinic.

55:27

That's right. We have the truth to give at the clinic. That's the most important thing that we give out there because that's what people need the most is the truth according to God's word.

55:36

That's the message of the gospels, the vehicle by which God saves souls. But we also have all sorts of financial adoption, lodging, baby cribs, diapers, wipies, whatever.

55:49

We will give whatever we can to try to intercept or come in between her and making that decision.

55:55

So when they said they could have helped, that's all that we want to do. Not only give the truth but also give hard physical help.

56:03

My experience walking in to get my abortion was hardly, and this is important, was hardly met by support until I got inside.

56:09

Now this is the greatest deception that women believe that inside the abortion clinic, that that's the place of help, that they are there to support them.

56:18

But here's what you need to hear, that if anybody is supporting you or persuading you to do that which

56:25

God prohibits, if anybody is persuading or supporting you or leading you to do that which is destructive to you and to your baby, they don't care about you.

56:37

They don't. It does not logically follow someone even to be pro -woman but be for the destruction of little future women in the womb.

56:45

They are not there supporting you. The support is not inside the abortion clinic. These are places, they are baby murdering mill for the purpose of making money.

56:56

We had Dr. Ronald Eunice over at Acacia Women's Center drive up in one of his many cars and he said, man it just seems as though every time

57:04

I see you I've got a new car. But we know we're there. We are on the front lines. We understand that these men and women are motivated by the money that we receive.

57:14

If you're listening to this and you're a worker there at any type of abortion clinic, you may be a worker there and it doesn't matter if you're the abortionist going up inside the womb of the mother or your administrative helper, we will help you get a new job.

57:28

The Bible says this to you specifically that those who receive a bribe or payment for the shedding of innocent blood are cursed.

57:37

Cursed are those who receive a payment for the shedding of innocent blood. So if you're working at an abortion clinic, we want to tell you this loudly and clearly, today is the day to get a new job.

57:47

Because even though again you're not going and ripping those babies apart, you are an accomplice to that murder.

57:54

And you're going to be held culpable for that. And the blood of those babies, the blood of those babies spilled while you're sitting at your desk doing your secretarial work, whatever it may be, even the janitorial stuff.

58:04

And you cash your check, you deposit your your checks into your bank. Those checks are dripping with the blood of innocent baby.

58:12

You're being paid according to the blood, the shed blood of innocence. And that blood cries out for your justice.

58:19

And you don't want to be a recipient of the justice of God on the day you stand before him in judgment. And again, the greatest deception is that women believe they're supported.

58:28

This is a good decision. And this is going to somehow benefit me by having my little baby murdered. No, it's going to bring upon compounded judgment, not only in this life, but in the life to come.

58:38

She says, making my way to the clinic, I had people calling me a murderer, a slut and a whore. That's horrible.

58:45

Again, that's hateful. I don't I don't have to really get into that. That's something that we would never condone.

58:52

She says they said in the end, the chicken ended up ended up loving the chick. Well, a chicken doesn't have a thought process.

58:57

So they they compared her. They said, well, that and this is what you just alluded to. This is what you just spoke to is that just let the baby live because a rooster, you know, will love the chicken.

59:07

And so that's really callous. That's really insensitive to compare with a rooster. Right. We get that.

59:13

But there are scores of testimonies of mothers who choose who chose to keep a child conceived in rape, who absolutely love their children, children.

59:22

And these are an amazing human beings. Yeah. So even though that was a very rough and raw and maybe not well thought through,

59:28

I'll say it wasn't well thought through to to compare you to a chicken or to rooster rape.

59:34

It wasn't. But again. A mother, there are so many testimonies, there's so many so much hard evidence of mothers who said, man,

59:43

I, I was raped, but I kept the child and now I have a beautiful little baby girl or little baby boy or whoever.

59:50

Right. That that child was actually a light in that came out of a dark, dark thing that happened.

59:58

And so instead of looking back and only thinking on that dark time, they they got this beautiful gift out of such a horrible thing.

01:00:08

Right. So exactly. Just a couple more things and we'll we'll wrap up here. I think I know I think we've covered a lot of this.

01:00:14

She goes into the abuse that she received, which we we pray and we hope that she finds truly true healing in.

01:00:22

She says, I resented what's growing inside me, but your side doesn't care. We do care. Of course we care.

01:00:28

That's why we're there. We're there to try to do all that we can to rescue the baby and to again, do all that we can to persuade her not to bring about death.

01:00:37

This that is abortion only equals devastation, destruction and death. It doesn't lead equal life or healing.

01:00:44

It equals it equals regret. And here she says, the only the only way

01:00:49

I was able to start the healing was to get the abortion. I had closure knowing that he was not inside me anymore.

01:00:56

And again, this is another great deception. You cannot heal at any degree whatsoever through the process of murdering a helpless human being.

01:01:08

Right. You cannot murder your own baby and believe it'll benefit you. And again, it's only going to lead to greater pain, depression and all the rest.

01:01:18

But that is your greatest self -deception that you're believing right now, okay, is believing that this abortion led to healing.

01:01:26

And what you have done after the abortion is now you work at abortion clinics and now you're supporting more babies coming in by way of the womb to die at the hand of an abortion doctor.

01:01:40

And this is the great, this is the great deception that many abortion clinics or sorry, you know, abortion escorts believe that they can assuage the guilt of their murder against their own child somehow by supporting the death of more babies.

01:01:58

And, you know, maybe I need to think this through more. But typically at the clinic, when we're talking to them, it's not this.

01:02:06

This is what we said. This is what we say. It's not this the shed blood, innocent babies that can ever assuage your guilt.

01:02:13

You know, I think really out there we're seeing misery loves company in living color.

01:02:19

It's these women who deal with regret. They deal with the depression, the shame. We, you know, you know, they know in their heart of hearts, even though they deny it, they know in their heart of hearts that they experienced this, but it is only by the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

01:02:34

Isn't that how those two things work out? I really haven't worked out theologically. And so I don't want to speak to it, but it is not the shed blood of innocence that's going to somehow relieve them of their act of murder against their child.

01:02:45

It's as they turn to Jesus Christ, embrace him as savior. And in so doing, allowing the his innocent blood to wash away their sins, the guilt of their sins, and to take off that big burden that they placed on themselves.

01:02:59

And even as we talk straight and uncompromisingly about abortion, we want,

01:03:06

I want the death scores, the abortion clinic workers to be saved. I want them to know healing.

01:03:12

I wouldn't want the reality of an unending judgment from God and hell to be upon anybody.

01:03:21

Yeah. So I think I'm just going to wrap it up there. I think that was, I think there's a, there's a lot of other stuff that we can talk about.

01:03:30

I think we've covered it. Oh, she goes, she goes on to say this, that there is no pro -abort. I don't want to force anyone into something.

01:03:40

So yeah, there's pro -abort. There's a whole shout your abortion movement out there. It's gone from saying you can no longer say there's no pro -aborts or nobody wants abortion because you have a whole huge mass of, of women who do, they shout their abortion.

01:03:57

You can go on YouTube and see all sorts of videos of women, women, you know, experiencing jubilation over the abortion.

01:04:05

Yeah. And not to mention the scores of men who benefit from this. I've personally met a pimp and a prostitute at the abortion clinic right here in Tempe.

01:04:15

And yeah, the pimp was to go get an abortion. He was pro -abortion.

01:04:20

He wanted that baby dead so that she can, could continue to work for him. That's good. It's a good illustration.

01:04:26

I mean, that was true that I met them right here in Tempe. So abortion, I mean, especially in the sex industry and then, you know, that's why we go out to the strip clubs and we preach the gospel because that is such a gateway to an abortion because you just go there, hook up, and then you go kill the baby.

01:04:41

I mean, yeah, many people, we understand many people want abortion. I would say, you know, abortion is ultimately the work of the devil because he is all about destroying that which is created in the image of God.

01:04:55

Of course, it's only humans that are created in the image of God. And so ultimately that's why people want it because you're either part of the kingdom of Christ.

01:05:03

You're either part of the kingdom of light or you're part of the kingdom of darkness. And in the kingdom of darkness, you do the will of your father and it is in his will to kill and to steal and to destroy.

01:05:14

I don't know if in that order, but that's what he works. I mean, he does effective work at the abortion clinic.

01:05:19

That's why Rusty Thomas says it truly is the gates of hell. Yeah. Yeah. So, Kay, we responded to what you said.

01:05:27

We try to do it as balanced as we could. Of course, the word of God is our foundation. And because it's not yours, we understand you do disagree with that.

01:05:34

But there is life for you. There's healing for you. There's hope for you.

01:05:40

There's forgiveness. There's redemption for you. There's restoration. There's true healing from the murder that you did, from the murder that you have done against your little baby girl or boy.

01:05:52

And that's what we want for you. We want you to know, Jesus, the Bible says this, that there is a

01:05:58

God that we're not the product of chance processes. It just doesn't make sense.

01:06:06

Somebody said evolution, the theory of evolution or the evolution as a means of explaining the origins of creation works well in a world that hates

01:06:17

God. Isn't that a good definition of it? But no, we didn't come from stardust.

01:06:22

God is our creator. God is holy. That means he's without sin. He's absolutely without sin, and he doesn't put up with it.

01:06:32

And because our first parents ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they were thrown out of the garden because of their sin, because God is holy.

01:06:39

And in that moment they did that, they died spiritually. And now everyone is born in sin. Our biggest problem is not our babies in the womb.

01:06:47

Our biggest problem is our sin that separates us from a holy God. And because God is good and because God is just and because God is holy, he must judge all sins.

01:06:57

So every single one of us on the day of our judgment, we were going to stand before a holy God. And in that day, he's going to judge us not based upon our own observation standards that we have erected for ourselves or constructed.

01:07:09

It's so many people believe when they stand on the day of God, the day of judgment, it's going to be the day of arbitration or mediation where they plead their case or they bribe the judge.

01:07:16

And that's not going to be the reality. It's going to be a day of it's a day of rendering judgment down upon people.

01:07:23

He's going to judge you according to his law. All of us have sinned and fallen short of the law of God, of the glory of God.

01:07:29

There's no one who can say I'm sinless. And so because of that, the penalty for sin is an everlasting punitive sentence in hell.

01:07:36

And we don't want that for Kay. We don't want that for anybody. And that's why we preach the good news, the gospel, the good news, the gospel though, is that God did not leave us in our helpless state, even though he, he could have, you know, we all deserve the justice of God, but we all do not want to be the recipients of the justice of God.

01:07:53

We want UK and everybody within our hearing to be the recipients of the grace of God only found in Jesus Christ.

01:08:00

So the good news is he sent his only son that whoever would believe in him will not perish, but have eternal life.

01:08:07

He sent Jesus and Jesus being fully God and fully man lived the perfect life that we could never live. Died upon a brutal

01:08:12

Roman cross voluntarily, even though innocent substituting himself on the cross for all those who would put their faith on him on the absorbing the wrath of God for all the sins of all of God's people.

01:08:25

And just an amazing, every time I preach the cross, I just get these goosebumps, you know, it's just at this point, knowing that God who is completely sufficient would come down to earth and pay my crime, pay for my crimes, a

01:08:40

God of immense grace and love and justice and mercy. So Jesus dies. He's power demonstrating in his resurrection.

01:08:50

That is only based upon the work of Jesus Christ and him alone that anyone can, can be saved.

01:08:56

Jesus says this, I am the way I am the truth and I am the life and no one can come to the father, but by me, women who have the abortion, they choose a way that leads to death.

01:09:06

The Bible says there was a way that seems right to a man and women. And in the end is the way of death. And you chose that way.

01:09:11

K any, any women who is listening to this, if you've chosen that you did do that, but you can choose the way that leads to life and be freed from the bondage of your sin.

01:09:21

Be declared not guilty because you've been gifted the righteousness of Jesus Christ as you would put your faith in him.

01:09:28

And that is what we want for UK. That's what we want for everyone. So God commands UK, as you listen to this, and if God so stirs your heart and grants you grant you the gifts of faith and repentance, cry out to God, cry out to him in faith, place your faith in Jesus, turn from your sin and the family of God will welcome you into our loving arms.

01:09:48

That's what we want. That is the goodness of the gospel. And that is ultimately what we're all about. Amen. Good job.

01:09:55

You did good. You did great today. I think your explanations were concise.

01:10:00

I think they were so well thought out. Um, um, yeah, you did, you did really good. I was just like, I stutter a lot, but that's okay.

01:10:06

We're not pretending to be like all polished. We're not entertainers out here. We're not, you know, eloquent. Um, we just try, we hopefully, as you listen to this, you can relate with our ordinariness and the fact of the matter is all we want to do is come alongside the church and help you is to be boots on the ground, on the streets, uh, getting that, getting that experience so we can pass it on to others so they can be ready and they can be effective out there in the streets.

01:10:32

Yeah. And you don't have to be afraid of this question. I remember when I first got into this fight, I was terrified of this question.

01:10:39

Well, what about rape and incest or whatever life in the mother? And I was intimidated to get into this because of my emotions, but it's really such a simple answer.

01:10:48

The baby's either a baby or they're not. Yeah. And we all know, and we all know that the baby is a baby.

01:10:55

And so if you just keep it simple, you can answer this question. You just like a living waters,

01:11:03

Ray Comfort says, just fill out the blank. It's okay to kill a baby when never is.

01:11:08

But we all know that. Yeah, we all know that. But we live in a world that hates God. But as things progress, we know that God is going to put all enemies under his feet.

01:11:17

The gospel is going to have an all encompassing effect on this earth. And we don't, that's going to take a while.

01:11:23

We get that, but it's going to make all things new. And as, as time goes on, there's going to be no more murder.

01:11:28

There's going to be no more abortion, no more, no more rape. It's all going to be put to death, which is just so, so encouraging.

01:11:35

Yeah. In the meantime, as Christians, we've got to set the slaves free, right? We do. That's by preaching the gospel. So that's what we want to do.

01:11:41

We're going to wrap up the show. We know it was an extended kind of show today. We hopefully hope it was helpful for you.

01:11:47

Do us a solid, do us a favor, a good apology as soon as again, and become an all access member. Let's give back and support this great ministry that has given of itself so much to so many in need, but we love you.

01:11:57

We're going to see you next week. We're going to have Bill Rooney on again, and we're going to have a great, another exchange with the guy and hoping maybe he'll change his mind.