Evangelicals for Redefining Marriage, Steven Anderson Lies Through His Teeth

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:33

And welcome to The Dividing Line on a Tuesday morning. James White along with you as we, you know, should

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I say as we look at today's news from a Christian worldview or just what because it's very painfully obvious to me that Dr.

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Albert Moeller, and I'm super pixelated up here again if that makes any, if that means anything to you,

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Dr. Albert Moeller has decided that my copyrighted phrase, theology matters, can be used any time that he wants to use it.

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So I sort of figure that means fair game. That's okay.

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Because theology does matter and that's the important part. That's, that's, that's very true.

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And I've been interested how often Dr. Moeller has been talking about climate change recently.

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That was part of the subject today. Of course, there were I don't know how many thousands of people running through the streets of New York in their fantasy world over the weekend.

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So I guess he had to, had to talk about it. But gotta, gotta love those record amounts of polarized.

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In case you haven't noticed, it's getting colder. I think those

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Russian scientists have got it right. They said, I think the big bright thing in the sky is the primary thing.

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And it's really quiet right now. So it's gonna get cold for a while. We should plan for that. But that doesn't give you taxes, you see there, because you can't tax that, you know, it's just sort of like, really hard to figure out a way to go, well, we need to tax this because of that's 93 million miles away, whatever.

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Okay, I'm not sure why we started off started off there. But don't look at you had nothing to do it.

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You had nothing to do it at all. I had this in the I've, I have been using pocket for a long time.

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I still I still have it set up and stuff. But I am moving much more over to Evernote.

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Tim Challies has been talking about Evernote for a long time. And I'm seeing more and more people going, this program is really cool.

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And it is. It's really nice to have everything on your your laptop, your tablet, your phone.

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It's everywhere. And I'm really hoping and my, my deep appreciation to whoever it was that yesterday, hit the ministry resource list and picked up the scan pen.

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I had had one of these things a long time ago, long before they were really any good. Because it was a brilliant idea, then it's remained a brilliant idea.

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But someone picked up the scan pen that I put in the ministry resource list. So that in the what almost 20 somewhere between 26 and 28 hours of flying that I'll be doing just on the way out next week, that I will have time to transfer a number of important passages from some,

03:51

I've been listening to some really exciting stuff. I was running this morning and then

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I did a 7k as my 7k running 7k rowing and, and I'm using my

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Bluetooth thing. So I was able to listen about both rowing and then I did 5k rowing, then

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I did 7k running and I came back to two more k rowing and I listened to the same stuff. And I'm listening to this very long, very scholarly, in depth work on the

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Quran. And at the end of each chapter, you've got all the footnotes.

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And sometimes, sometimes footnotes are just stultify, stultifyingly boring for obvious reasons.

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But I still listen to them because every once in a while, first of all, because I put so much stuff in footnotes.

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I mean, if you skip my footnotes, you might as well not buy the book. But every once in a while, I'll be running along and all of a sudden

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I'm going, what's that? And I will find a real gem buried in a footnote that I'd never see if I just read the book.

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But since it's been converted into mp3, I really don't have a choice. It's sort of like when

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I listened through Sahih al -Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, I had to keep listening to the same Hadith over and over and over again, because I would have just skipped over them if I was reading the book.

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But because it's an mp3, you can't exactly reach back.

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And, you know, I've got this little teeny tiny iPod touch is that yay big. Can I go one minute ahead?

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It doesn't work while you're moving. It's not possible. So you just you just keep listening. And so I was listening to this stuff.

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And this morning, I did run across some really interesting stuff in footnotes on Surah 4.

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Anyway, the whole thing being, I just I'm really wondering this morning, obviously, that I'm going to use that pen to get a lot of my quotes and stuff straight into Evernote.

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And I have a feeling I'm going to be using Evernote for my debate notes and things like that in the future as well.

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So it's it's it's pretty cool. And then it'll always be there for me as well. Well, until somebody drops an

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EMP and the cloud disappears. But then we're back to pen and pencil.

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And some of you are going and I'm ready for that. I've been fighting against this technology stuff all along.

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And I'll be ready for it. Anyways, sometimes it's footnotes, sometimes it's endnotes.

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It depends on the format of the book. I've had in here, the local troublemaker, not the troublemaker from out of state, but the local troublemaker, had sent me a link to this material.

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And I'm sure that he feels that I have let him down because I did not dive into this as soon as as soon as it was sent over.

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But I'll have to admit a little bit outside of where my my mind is right now, because I think

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I can be forgiven, given that I think everything not everything.

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I am going to be at Antioch. And I will be talking

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Trinity and stuff there. But almost everything that I'm doing when I'm in South Africa will be relevant to the

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Quran and Islam. So it's hopefully I can be forgiven for being focused primarily upon that at the moment.

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But that doesn't mean that I'm not perfectly well aware of the fact that there are continuing developments in our culture and within what is broadly called evangelicalism, which again, every time

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I use that term anymore, I have to remember what

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Carl Truman has said. And Carl Truman said, you know, it was it was it was a book, it was put out as a book, but it wasn't long enough to be a book.

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You know that, Carl, it was not long enough to be a book. That was a that's a book. That's a long blog article.

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But anyways, in that, he made the argument that the homosexual issue is what's going to finally completely discombobulate evangelicalism, because since it doesn't have a creedal core, it'll just slice it up into so many small pieces that it won't really be overly relevant anymore, which is a shame given that, you know, the evangel is the gospel.

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But anyway, I was sent by the local troublemaker a link to Evangelicals for Marriage Equality, the story behind our launch.

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And there is a kid, I mean, a kid, I don't know how else to describe it, is

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Brandon Robertson. He looks like he's about 14, really does.

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Brandon Robertson of Evangelicals for Marriage Equality. Why we are starting an initiative for evangelicals to support civil marriage equality.

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And we've talked about it a million times, but there's still a lot of confusion.

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It's a shame because we're starting to really see, if we have eyes to see, what the result of this abandonment of the wisdom of our ancestors is amounting to.

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Because what we, what's the real motivation behind many of the people that have been launching this, and it's only a matter of a couple of decades old at the most, the motivation for most of them is the destruction of marriage as the very heart and core of Western civilization.

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That process had begun a long time ago with the degradation of marriage, the degradation of human sexuality, the abandonment of the

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Christian ethical system that was at the core of our law and so on and so forth. That process had to get to a certain point before this could even be, this is really the death blow to the process that led up to it.

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And I'm not going to sit here and claim to have been some prophet back then and stuff like that. I'm not really old enough to have been a prophet back then anyways.

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But hindsight is 20 -20. But what we're seeing in the deconstruction of marriage, destruction of marriage, yes, but the deconstruction in the sense of taking it apart and turning it into something else, the redefinition of marriage, the redefinition of words, so that we are now, and it's being done by the media purposefully, what they're doing.

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I don't watch a lot of ABC, NBC, CBS, whatever else it might be. But once in a while,

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I'll see something maybe online that says there's gonna be a certain story at such and such time. And so I'll tune in because I want to see what somebody says or something along those lines.

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And I noticed, where was it? It was an innocuous story.

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It wasn't any central thing. I may have been watching a football game or something like that.

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And then the news came on afterwards. I just hadn't turned it off or something. I forget what it was. But what they did is they were interviewing couples.

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And what they did is they interviewed like four different couples and they just threw in two guys.

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It had to do with fashion. Yeah, it was a style thing. And they threw in two guys as the third couple without ever making anything of it.

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Just sort of. And here's a guy talking about what his husband wears.

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And there's no discussion of it. It's just and it's purposeful. It is meant to enforce a redefinition and in fact a destruction of a term because now husband has become a meaningless thing.

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It means male partner in a contractual temporary relationship that may involve others.

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I mean, that's the whole deep meaning of husband and wife, two words that can only be defined in light of each other and only be defined in light of gender and only be defined in light of marriage, which then become vitally important in the definition of father and mother, son and daughter.

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All of that stuff totally connected together, totally redefined.

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And it's being done not by force of argument, but by casual reference, not by force of argument, because we've how many times we've already proven these folks can't argue their case.

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They the best they can do is scream and yell and carry banners and and yell things like homophobe and stuff like that.

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They can't argue their case. That's why Matthew Vines has has become an ethereal spirit.

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The guy who before his book, oh, we'll debate when your book comes out. I'm training people to.

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Yeah, well, no. Now I've contacted him every way you could contact the man won't even respond.

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He's run for the hills because he knows he knows that if he and I were to sit down with a meaningful amount of time, equal equal situation, his position would be shredded.

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And he knows it. He knows it. And so to run for the hills. So their position cannot survive meaningful dialogue and discussion.

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So they don't do it that way. And they know, because of the educational system in the

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West, that most people today don't think critically. They don't they don't they haven't been taught how to think only what to think.

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And so they don't notice that people are not arguing in a in an appropriate fashion.

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And so this kind of stuff works. So you have this redefinition going on.

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And by now, it should be obvious what the results of this are. I mean, once marriage simply becomes nothing more than what you would have in a temporary business contract between multiple people, that will never satisfy the heart and mind that has been created in the image of God.

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Can't do it. Can't do it. It is the continuation of the dehumanization.

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It's funny. Humanism dehumanizes because humans were never meant to be the top level.

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Humans were never meant to be the central aspect of the worldview.

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We are too small. We are too puny. We can't be there. We can't function there. And so when humanism places man there, it dehumanizes man because that's not where we were created to be.

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And so as Western secularism continues to dehumanize man, it will only create more cultural chaos, less peace, less prosperity, less cultural advance in regards to arts, music, all these things, science.

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It was all based upon the recognition that we live in the world that God created.

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And now that we live in a world of utter chaos, and this is just the death knell to the one institution that God uses to remind us of who we really are, to teach young men what it means to be a man, to see the father treating the mother in a proper and respectful fashion, to teach the young woman what it means to be a mother and a wife and to serve, and the balance that is absolutely necessary there because the young man needs the mother's love and the father's direction just as the young woman needs the father's love and the mother's direction.

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And that balance is beautiful and it's being destroyed. Our society has decided, it is so evil and so perverse to now put children purposefully in a situation where they can never have that.

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And in fact, not only never have that balance, but to have a perversion of those relationships as their only example.

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It's institutional child abuse is what it is. So there's the situation we're in.

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And so in the midst of this, we have Brandon Robertson of Evangelicals for Marriage Equality saying,

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I'm an evangelical Christian. I believe the Bible is God's Word. I also believe that LGBT men and women should enjoy the same right to civil marriage as any other couple.

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Now, why is that wrong for a Christian to say? Well, because Scripture for a

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Christian defines what a couple is. Scripture for a Christian under the authority of Jesus Christ defines what marriage is.

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Now he's going to say, oh, but we live in a pluralistic society. But the society has to decide the basic level ethical and moral foundation upon which it's going to stand.

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And this society up until this point in time has recognized the Judeo -Christian understanding of manhood and womanhood and family and children as being absolutely central.

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And so what you're saying is, I'm an evangelical Christian, but I don't let my Bible and I don't let

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Jesus speak outside of what I limit him to in regards to religious stuff.

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The Lordship of Christ is fine on Sundays in the religious realm.

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But when Jesus defines marriage in Matthew chapter 19 as one man and one woman and the family and says that's the only thing

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God blesses, I don't care about that because my society gets to do whatever my society wants to do and God will bless it.

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It doesn't matter whether we overthrow the Lordship of Christ, go against his teaching, that's irrelevant.

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And so I will not allow scriptural parameters to define what a couple is. In fact,

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I would wonder why you say a couple, why not three? That's already on the docket, shall we say, for the

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Supreme Court. And once the Judeo -Christian foundation for marriage is gone, two men and a woman, one man and two women, four people, one guy, two gals, three dogs, hey, it's all marriage because it's whatever you feel like it is, right?

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If it makes you happy, then if God made you that way, as if you know, then that'll be cool, that'll be all right.

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And so you start listening to him. He talks about how he was once opposed to gay marriage.

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It's funny, he says, I was once strongly opposed to marriage equality, even to the point of preaching in the streets of Baltimore with my church youth group about the dangers of legalizing same -sex marriage.

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I just love these folks. Yeah, I was in a youth group. You're still in a youth group.

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I love it. These people are, well, anyway.

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But as I dug deeper into studying the Bible and became friends with many of my LGBT peers, why are you skipping the

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Q part? Are you a bigot? I began to struggle with the clear call of Jesus to love my neighbor and my evangelical community's insistence that I oppose marriage equality for my gay and lesbian friends.

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You don't, so in other words, you didn't know why you were opposing the redefinition of marriage.

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First of all, I was once strongly opposed to marriage equality. Marriage equality is a lie. It is a lie.

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It is a phrase that no one believes in and you don't believe in it either, unless, unless you do believe in polygamy, bestiality, pedophilia, incest.

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If you believe that you should be able to marry your grandma or your granddaughter, then you believe marriage quality.

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Other than that, then you're lying. You don't believe in marriage quality. Don't, don't, don't sit there and tell me you do because you're saying, well, no,

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I don't think those people should get to marry. Oh, so your ethical system now becomes the standard, right?

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Even though you won't tell us where you derive it from, right? I mean, the hypocrisy,

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I listened to it as David Old was being interviewed a lot recently and I would love to have

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David on, but I just sort of feel like I have to watch the program before I have

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David on and as yet there's no way for me to do that because it's geo -blocked and the ways of trying to get around that have not worked for me.

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And so I can't, I can't watch the program. And so you can't interview somebody about a program when you haven't seen the program.

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I've heard enough of the interviews, but they're always such short interviews. It was sort of irrelevant, but over and over again in the interviews, marriage quality, marriage quality, buzz term, just like homophobia, everything else.

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And it's a lie. And it just shocks me that so many people will repeat a lie phrase because that's what it is.

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It's a lie phrase. There's no truth to it. And they don't seem to even recognize that they're doing it.

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It's just in one ear out the other. So this, this marriage quality thing, if you've already bought that, you've already bought the lie.

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It's not marriage quality. We already have marriage quality. Any man can marry any other woman. We've got marriage quality.

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That's what marriage is. So, so G is loving, telling me to love my neighbor means that I should abandon everything

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G has taught about marriage and about human flourishing. And if I love them, then

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I will encourage them in their self -destructive pursuit of the culture of death.

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Yeah, that's, that's, that's how you love your neighbor. Yeah. Okay. There, there, there you go.

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Many evangelicals believe the Bible describes same -sex relationships as sinful. Others disagree. Well, you just don't know.

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Every time you run into these folks, you will find a deficient bibliology every single time.

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Push Matthew Vines far enough and he'll start spouting enough liberalism to choke a horse. It's just, it's necessary.

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You cannot actually believe that the Bible as a whole is the word of God and spout this stuff.

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Because what he's saying is, well, it's not clear enough. We really don't know. Actually we do.

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We do know. And that's why we keep challenging those who would try to say we don't to full -on debate.

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Because if we can demonstrate consistently that we do, then you sort of lose that debate, huh?

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Yeah. That's, that's how it works. Uh, regardless of whether we believe that God views these relationships should be as sinful or not, little typo there, our particular

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Christian definition of marriage shouldn't dictate the definition of marriage in a pluralistic and religiously diverse society such as ours.

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Well, obviously the younger generation doesn't think much at all.

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I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But that is so grossly naive, so disconnected from any knowledge of history or ethics or morality or philosophy or anything that it just makes me sit here and go, and you guys can be in charge soon, aren't you?

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Oh yeah. Well, the, the, the pits, the barbarians are at the gates, the barbarians at the gates, because we didn't teach the, the next generation.

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Um, we, we didn't teach the next generation the most basic fundamental truths about how culture exists, how it's perpetuated, what's foundational to it.

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It's just absolutely, um, amazing.

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The naivete of these individuals. It really, really is. Um, this will go nowhere in outside of the fact that how often have

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I said it? I've said it over and over again. Uh, we are facing a tsunami of apostasy amongst people who call themselves evangelicals.

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And there's nothing new in the, in the experience, uh, that will be ours in having to, we're the ones that will have to make the clear definitions of our positions over against these others.

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And if that means we eventually just have to stop using the term evangelical, well, then we have to stop using the term evangelical.

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Um, it's, it's, it anyway. And if, and if you're sitting here going, man, this really depresses me, look, my friends, we have been called to this time.

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If you really believe, if you're not one of these open theists out there, um, if you really believe what

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Psalm 139 says that God knit you together in your mother's womb, that he puts you at this time and in this place for his purposes, that he has gifted you to serve him in this time and in this place.

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Well, we really need to get to the point in the American church where we stopped looking back going, man, it sure was great back then.

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Remember when, you know, uh, there was a respect for the Bible. Yeah. You know, that that's, that's true.

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There was, but that was then this is now. And I, I think a lot of people sit around contemplating their navels going, well, what did the church do wrong?

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Oh my, what did the church? Uh, you know, we, we

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Semper Reformanda. We can always be looking at what we can do better. We we've never arrived and all the rest of this stuff.

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But what if we happen to live in a society that, um, God's bringing judgment upon that God has blast and blast and blast with protection and economic security and, and all the rest of this stuff.

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What has that society done has taken all those blessings and spit in God's face.

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Well, God's going to bring judgment. And, um, even my post -millennial friends, and there's a lot of you running around out there.

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Um, God judges nations. And sometimes I think my post -millennial friends sort of lose sight of that and, uh, that, um, there can be great judgment and that there can be times when the truth is in a small minority.

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And, uh, we look at Western society right now, and could God turn things around?

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I confess that he could, and I pray that he will. But as I look back on church history,

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I look back on the Bible, look back at both of them. It seems there's a fairly clear pattern of raising one people up and taking another person, another nation down.

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And there is judgment, and there is no more fitting. Oh, we can, it's easy for us to look over there and look, oh, look at what they're doing in Belgium.

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And oh, that's terrible. Look at France. Oh, everybody liked to see them get, you know, easy to do stuff like that.

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But I can't think of any people who've had more blessings from God, more light than we have.

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And can anyone really make an argument that God would be unjust to bring this nation to its knees and to make us servants of everybody around us?

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Tough words, but can someone tell me where that's not in scripture? I mean, okay, if you're sort of a

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Zondian guy where God doesn't have wrath and God doesn't judge and, you know, he's just that, you know, he's sort of like that marshmallow creature in Ghostbusters, you know, just really fluffy.

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Yeah, the stavepuff marshmallow. Oh, yeah, just very fluffy. Just want to hug it and eat it.

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If you've got that kind of only one aspect of God stuff, then yeah, you know, this doesn't make much sense to you.

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But if you look at the biblical God and all of that, you don't put on your filters and go, oh, okay,

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I'll put the, there, there, that's, I put that filter on the scripture and now God looks the way I like him to look. We'll look at that in a second.

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If you actually look at what the Bible says, God judges nations and this nation has absolutely no basis to say

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God bless America with except one thing. What was it?

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September 12, 2001, that we did the dividing line and I talked about what happened and what did

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I say then? We have, there's only one thing that we can say God bless America about. God bless America with true heartfelt repentance.

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That's it. That's it. We can't, biblically, we can't say anything else.

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God bless America. Make sure that our stock market rises and we've all got 401k.

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Really? Biblically? No, no, I don't think so. I don't think so.

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Don't think so. Well, thank you, local troublemaker, getting me off on all these things.

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Just, you know who you are. You know who you are. That's it. And you know what? The out -of -state troublemaker was hurt that I identified a local troublemaker because he just wanted to be the only troublemaker.

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So there you go. There you go. Had an interesting conversation.

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I'm going to, Dr. Oakley watches

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Ghostbusters and supports witchcraft. Calvinism exposed. Yeah, the channel.

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And I want to thank Turretinfan personally for kicking RedGoatee out of channel. There was one point where I lost my train of thought during all that.

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It was thanks to RedGoatee who was throwing stuff in channel. And since I didn't have

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Merc running. Now you see right in the middle of the program, somebody named

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Brett Cates is sending me videos of Steven Anderson.

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Have you seen this? Now, every time you freeze frame.

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You have to remember, I can't cue things up or what I cue up. I mean, maybe had you had seen it, somebody had sent an email or something like that.

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No, no. But if I fire it up over here, it actually takes over the show. Oh, yeah. Broadcasting.

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That's not good. I'm sure. And it's on the wrong computer for me to play it. But well,

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I wonder. Oh, it's firing up Safari.

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That's not what I wanted to do. And it's really confused. Somebody in September 15, 2001, huh?

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Okay. All right. I'll keep that in mind, too. Anyway, I'm afraid this thing is going to finally fire up.

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And oh, there is a there is a YouTube address here. James White gets rebuked.

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Oh, pervert Calvinist. James White gets gets rebuked.

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That's that's that's all right. This is this is live, folks.

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But I think I think what's going on here, this computer is working really, really slowly.

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And it's because it's doing a backup, I think. And so it's and this is my oldest.

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This is my original. And you got to give this thing some props. This is my original MacBook Pro. This this baby has been has been going for it has been through the wars and is still is still putzing along here.

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Let's let's see if we can do this here. I'm going to I'm going to pop up, pop it up over on this side, hope that the transfer thing will work so that what's in the because it's two different computers here and see if I can move the

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URL over to this one. And I'll fire up the desktop presenter thing for you here. I think unfortunately, because someone didn't get everything started in here as early as normal, both of them are in the middle of a that those are always on.

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Not on Tuesdays. I'll leave them on over the weekend while we're out in the world. I have the things running. Well, the backup drives are always on.

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Maybe, but if the computer is not on, that's going to be irrelevant. Okay, let's see if I can bring this up here.

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Do you do you see it? Oh, it's true.

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The King James Bible has been used to evangelize the world. Okay. I'm not sure why it's saying.

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Hold on. Hold on a second. Window Safari pervert

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Calvinist. You should have it now. All right.

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All right. Not the folks. I'm not seeing this. Stretch. So, I need to zoom in on this here and get to where it can display properly.

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I've not seen this. So, this could be. Okay, let me read the description here.

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Pastor Steven Anderson rips on the heretic James White, who is best known for attacking

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God's Word and defending the modern perversions of the Holy Scriptures. You got to love the fairness and accuracy of our

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King James only brethren. You know, we just sort of figure the easiest way to do it is just destroy the arguments and then leave that up to the audience at that point.

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But you got it? I thought you were faster than us.

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I mean, you know, come on now. You got to be right. You got to be ready to roll here when stuff hits.

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And if any of you are upset that we're taking the time to look at this, the name is

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Brett Cates. At Cates Brett.

37:58

Hey, you know, if you're going to send me stuff during the dividing line, going to distract me from doing what

38:04

I was going to do. And you just get blamed. This is eight minutes, 35 seconds long.

38:10

I'm not sure I'm going to spend all that much time on it. Let's just see what

38:15

Steven, don't tase me bro,

38:21

Anderson has to say about pervert

38:27

Calvinist. You know what? We've got to give them props. They spelled Calvinist correctly.

38:33

They did not use two A's. So this is, this is a good, this is a good thing.

38:39

Okay, here we go. You know, I show me a church that's worth a dime that uses anything other than this book.

38:46

Oh, you know what I mean? Show me the, show me an ESV preaching church.

38:52

I'll show you liberalism. I'll show you a lack of soul winning. I'll show you watered down pansy limp -wristed preaching.

39:02

Now remember, now if you only include meaningful preaching as the kicking of the pulpit preaching, then

39:10

I guess we, you know, but remember this is a storefront church. If they're in the forefront of soul winning, why are they still in a storefront with about 40 people?

39:23

Why is that? I'm just, I'm just, I mean, just using his standard, just using his standard of whatever he thinks soul winning is.

39:32

That's what I'll show you. I've never seen fiery preaching out of an ESV or an

39:37

NIV. Somebody handed me a, a CD of Dr. James White preaching, you know, and this is the guy who's real big on the modern versions and he's the arch enemy of King James only -ism and he's featured in the movie

39:50

New World of Revivors. Somebody gave me a preaching sermon by Dr. James White and they said, could we,

39:57

I'm going to have to, I'm going to, could we somehow work that description in to the beginning of the program?

40:04

Because that, that was awesome. That arch, arch enemy.

40:10

Wow. And you know, Steven Anderson knows, he well knows that there are all sorts of modern versions that I really, really dislike and criticize.

40:22

But yeah, when you're, when you're a fiery preacher, you don't have to worry about stuff like that.

40:28

Anyway, so, so now we're going to find out about my preaching.

40:35

This is some really hard preaching. You're going to like this. He said, this is where Dr.

40:41

White's really going after the sodomites. And I'm just thinking to myself, I have never used that term in a sermon.

40:50

Not once. Now I've spoken on the subject of homosexuality. I've debated homosexuals.

40:57

Steven Anderson, as far as I know, would never be allowed to do so because it would be such a mess.

41:04

But anyway. How about no? You know, I'm just thinking to myself, there's no way. There's no way that there's going to be a hard sermon against the, so you know,

41:13

I get this sermon and you know, it burned my fingers when I touched the CD. It was, you know, so I had to get an oven mitt because this,

41:21

I mean, this is just red hot preaching. And it said on the CD, the title of the sermon was called,

41:27

A Defense of Marriage. Oh man, this is going to be a hot one. You can tell, right?

41:33

I mean, you can tell he's really letting the homos have it. A Defense of Marriage. I put in the

41:39

CD of Dr. White preaching on A Defense of Marriage, if you could even call it preaching. I got about 35 minutes into this thing before I finally turned it off.

41:50

And he had not used one Bible verse. Not even one. Not even to start the lesson or to start the sermon.

41:57

Not even one. Okay, not only did he not use one Bible verse, he didn't even tell a Bible story.

42:02

He didn't even mention Sodom and Gomorrah. How do you mention, how do you preach a sermon against homos and you don't even mention

42:09

Sodom and Gomorrah? I'd like to know what he's talking about because there really isn't any question on the part of any at least serious person who has ever listened to my preaching through Hebrews, currently in the law code, will be preaching this

42:33

Sunday. I'd really like to know what he's referring to because most of you know that when

42:43

I talk about the subject of marriage, where do I start? Matthew chapter 19. When I went through Matthew 19, the synoptic study, we spent about three weeks on that.

42:55

So, be really, Stephen Anderson, accuracy and representation, the two generally don't really go together real well.

43:07

We've documented that a number of times. You don't even mention a verse from the

43:13

Bible and it was just all just a bunch of logic and man -made philosophy about why gay people shouldn't be getting married.

43:22

Who cares if they get married? Stone them with stones. That's what the Bible said. Here's a good example of why this kind of, now remember, this guy doesn't understand the gospel, doesn't understand repentance, is more concerned about rapture theories than he is understanding the relationship of faith and repentance.

43:50

King James only, we've refuted so much of his stuff and so many people have watched our dialogue and have just said, how did you survive two and a half hours with such a circularly minded person?

44:05

It's just, you know, just and it's like, I know, I understand.

44:13

And this is the kind, he thinks this is hot preaching. He thinks he's all that.

44:23

This man cannot go into the places that we have the opportunities of going to, not just into the mosques and into the churches and things like that, but this kind, you know,

44:37

I just got done and by the way, Brett Kates will have to testify of this, but Brett Kates posted this.

44:49

I had happened to look over while I was doing the evangelicals for marriage equality thing.

44:56

I happened to look over and I, the first tweet from 25 minutes ago was just the video and there wasn't a comment on it.

45:11

And then I don't know where it was here, how long ago, okay, 11 minutes ago.

45:17

So pretty much right at that start, there was more text.

45:23

So Stephen Anderson is on the war path. You should check this out if you have not already. And that's what made, so the point is,

45:31

I had no idea this was coming and it was not connected with the evangelicals for marriage equality stuff.

45:39

So I've just addressed the arguments of a movement and I did so on a meaningful foundation and I didn't have to use off -color language.

45:54

I didn't have to talk about stoning anybody. And yet this man thinks this is preaching.

46:03

This is the same mindset as the street screechers. Yell and scream loud enough to get people angry at you for acting like a complete jerk and call it persecution.

46:16

You know, that's what he does. You know, he seems to like to do that with police officers as well. And, you know, eventually he's going to have a tick from all the tasing he gets, but that's, you know, that's his thing.

46:29

He can, you know, that's what he wants to do. But this is the kind of behavior and hot preaching that rightly obtains the world's wrath and disrespect.

46:48

It's like, oh, you know, a defense of marriage. Okay, and listen to this. You know, I'm listening to an audio

46:54

CD. This wasn't a video, but it was apparent from listening to the audio CD that as he's preaching, he had an overhead.

47:02

There was like a screen or a projection behind him of a gigantic image of two men kissing.

47:08

The whole time he's speaking, there's a picture, a gigantic picture being projected behind him of two men kissing.

47:14

Let me tell you something. That image should never be displayed for any reason. Even if you're preaching against it, that kind of filth should never be looked at or displayed by anyone for any reason ever.

47:27

I'm never going to have a picture like that in this church. So this wasn't a sermon. It has to have been.

47:39

It might have been the dividing line. I don't think

47:45

I've ever done that because I remember. I remember. No, I remember exactly now. This was the picture of the gay marriage at the

48:01

Air Force Academy. Remember? I forget how long ago it was now.

48:06

About 18 months ago or so. And because I remember the image, and I'm pretty certain this was the dividing line.

48:14

So the man's so ignorant, so absolutely ignorant, he doesn't know the difference between a sermon, a

48:21

Bible study, or a webcast. Or let me put it back. The man's not ignorant.

48:26

He doesn't care. He is so cavalier about truth in his little cult that he runs over there.

48:32

It's all about getting them fired up. Oh, yeah. It preaches good. He's throwing red meat to his audience.

48:39

He doesn't even care. So now he just beat the pulpit to death and his

48:44

Bible, thinking that I would project that. He doesn't even know, of course, that the idea of a projection unit in the worship center at PRBC.

48:58

Yeah, that was a little, that's definitely not where that happened. Yeah, you know,

49:05

Brother Anderson doesn't care about these things. He's just getting his. You know what this is?

49:12

His people saw the interview and they saw him. And any rational person who saw that interview and had seen the movie is sitting there going, how come what was in the movie was in the movie and all this stuff that was completely irrelevant and makes me wonder, because I don't know what the answers are, because he answered all of Pastor Anderson's questions.

49:42

Why wasn't that in the movie? This is damage control. We talked about this last time with the comments when

49:51

I took apart his silly comments, the Book of Hebrews. I mean, I've refuted the man over and over again, and he knows it.

49:59

And this is damage control. This is attack the man because there might be people in his little teeny tiny group that he has full control over that saw that and went, oh, that's not what

50:13

I expected. Turrets and Fans Sunday School, January 5, 2014.

50:20

How in the world did he find that that fast? That's pretty impressive. That's pretty impressive.

50:29

It says it's on Sermon Audio. There'd be no way I could bring that up and this at the same time.

50:36

Yeah, it's titled A Defense of Marriage, January 1, 2014 on Sermon Audio. January 1,

50:42

January 5. January 5, my bad. Okay, January 5, 2014. So I must have grabbed the, either brought in mine or, you know, got that real old one that doesn't work real well anymore.

51:01

And I may have put it up near that or printed it out. I don't remember what

51:06

I did. Or were you just referring to it, talking about it? I might have passed it around. I might have passed it around, too. I don't remember.

51:12

I don't remember. But yeah, I did. And I do not apologize. It was in the media at that time.

51:21

And it was that gay marriage, that profaning of marriage at the, it wasn't just that it was at the

51:30

Air Force Academy. It's that one of them is in full uniform and the, they're doing the swords, the cross swords thing.

51:41

I mean, it's showing that our military itself is being forced into this absurd petri dish of experimentation.

51:52

So good. Thank you for finding that. It was a Sunday school lesson. Woo hoo. There you go.

51:58

We continue on. It's disgusting. The Bible says it's a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

52:05

You don't bring that into the church and put that on a big screen and have that on. Look, you have to be a pervert to put that on the screen.

52:11

There, I said it. Who would put that kind of filth on the screen? Not preaching the word of God because he doesn't have any respect for the word of God.

52:20

That's why he gets out and just blah, blah, blah, defense of marriage. So in other words, if you actually reason and you actually lay out foundations.

52:30

Now, I'm tempted now to download the file and to demonstrate that Anderson again, these people cannot speak to our society because they're not truth -loving people.

52:53

They're deceivers and they're deceiving others. But I will put anything that I've done on this subject, the debate with Justin Lee, the debate with John Shelby Spong, the debate with all the people

53:08

I've debated, Barry Lynn on homosexuality, against anything this man come up with because he knows that if he were actually to seek to talk to his people in such a way as to inculcate a serious

53:23

Christian worldview, they wouldn't know what he was doing because that's not what he does. That's the scary thing about a cult.

53:32

That's the scary thing about a cult. Well, this is a classic example of the old joke about the marginal note in the sermon notes.

53:39

Argument week here. Preach louder. And he's going crazy on it. I mean, this is ridiculous.

53:47

Yeah. Well, anyways, there you go. I'm going to stop there. The thought crosses my mind.

53:53

You're going to need to bring that down. The thought crosses my mind to pull down that Bible study, not that I listen to those types of things very often, but pull down the

54:03

Bible study. But not like you would even care, but Stephen Anderson, you know why you're doing what you're doing.

54:11

You know you got your head handed to you in that in that discussion. I'm really surprised you actually did what you said you're going to do and put it out there.

54:18

And this is all damage control. I know it. You know it. And you know face to face that you could never defend the stuff that you spew behind that pulpit.

54:30

What's that like? Because when I preach behind the pulpit at the Phoenix Foreign Baptist Church, anything

54:36

I say then I can defend in a debate. And you can't.

54:42

And that's a big difference. Had a conversation with Brian Zond via Twitter.

54:49

Might go a minute or two longer here. It's hard to have

54:55

Twitter conversations, but it can be done. I didn't try to get it going.

55:00

I didn't go and find some... I didn't know what his

55:06

Twitter handle was or anything like that. But someone by the name of McGee, M -C -G -I -E 84, had tweeted me.

55:20

This was on Sunday. Had tweeted me and I wasn't going to respond. The thought crossed my mind.

55:26

But how do you... Sometimes I don't respond on Twitter because I don't want to fire up Twee Short and you have to go in and get the

55:34

URL and plug it in and do all this other stuff. And have a discussion about being focused upon what somebody teaches and not so much speculating about their particular spiritual state or whatever else it might be.

55:51

And so McGee 84 had tweeted me about listening to my review, which

56:00

I was going to get back to today, but we'll do that on Thursday, I guess, of Zond's opening statement saying,

56:06

I'm concerned. Is this guy even a Christian? Because he identified God as the

56:11

God of wrath and substitutionary atonement is a monster and all the rest of this stuff. And yeah, I'm not going to call someone like that a brother who calls my

56:19

God a monster. Well, I don't know how, but Brian Zond saw the tweet and he responded.

56:27

And I'm going to try to put all this stuff into an article on the blog. He responded, I just asked

56:33

Jesus about my salvation. He said not to worry about it. He's got it covered. Jesus is good like that. So I saw that and I thought about it.

56:44

And so I responded. While talking to Jesus, did you ask him what this means? And then

56:50

I put the phrase, teis orgeis tu arneu. Teis orgeis tu arneu.

56:56

Now, I'm not the one that brought this up. Michael Brown did. And teis orgeis tu arneu in Greek means the wrath of the lamb,

57:07

Revelation 6, 16. Hides from the wrath of the lamb and he who sits upon the throne. So it's God's wrath, but it is being brought against mankind by both the father and the son.

57:19

And so I asked him about teis orgeis tu arneu. And then

57:26

I said, how does Martianism understand that? And his response was no.

57:35

In other words, he didn't ask Jesus about that. And so I said, the

57:41

Jesus who believed the Tanakh was God speaking, Matthew 22, 31, would understand

57:47

Revelation 6, 16. The Martian, not Jesus, not so much. By the way, a lot of my tweets had zeros at the end, which if you do

57:56

Twitter means 140 characters on the nose. It's just, I was pushing it.

58:03

He responded, it ain't me, babe. No, no, no. It ain't me you're looking for. Now, I'm pretty certain that's a song line somewhere that I have no earthly idea what it is, but I will confess.

58:18

That's a weird twist on Sonny and Cher. No, I don't think it's the,

58:24

I don't think it's you got me, babe. No, no, no. It's that there's a song, somebody in channel will go, oh, I betcha.

58:29

Anyways. My response was no, pretty sure I've got the right Zahn fellow. You are the

58:35

Olympic champion straw man builder as shown last week at IHOP. Yes. He says,

58:43

I'm a Christian and a pastor. I confess Jesus is the living word of the God of Israel. That's me.

58:48

I'm just not a Calvinist. Yes. And you likewise say the Tanakh is an inspired record of what the

58:55

Israelites thought about God. Do you not? And he said, what?

59:01

I said, you cannot create a Jesus that is comfortable to you, Brian. The Jesus of history was firmly planted in the

59:07

Tanakh as revelation. And he said, amen. And then

59:12

I interpreted his what as saying, where have I ever said that? And so I gave a URL to his blog, which we had read on the air where he said, don't get backed into the corner about the old

59:24

Testament. That's what they thought about the Israelite God. They were coming to know him. So I gave the URL paragraph beginning.

59:30

The old testament is inspired, inspired telling of the story of Israel. To which he says, yes.

59:37

I said to him, pretending you can start with Jesus and relegate the Tanakh to an errant story results in a faux

59:44

Jesus. Jesus did not teach us to view the old testament the way you view the old testament, which is why the lamb has wrath and your lamb, well, question mark.

59:54

And then he says, what's Tanakh? That took me back to now.

01:00:04

You may be sitting there going, I don't know what Tanakh is either. Okay. But you're not a published author and pastor.

01:00:15

Tanakh is a pretty basically known acronym for Torah, Nevi 'im,

01:00:21

Ketuvim, Law, Nevi 'im, Prophets, Ketuvim, Writings, the

01:00:27

Hebrew scriptures, the Tanakh. But he didn't know what the Tanakh was. Okay.

01:00:35

And yet he was lecturing everybody in the debates about how we should interpret the old testament, which is where you, where you view the prophets as being basically as opposed to the law, which is strange.

01:00:50

He didn't know what the Tanakh was. So I explained Torah, Nevi 'im, Ketuvim, the Law, the

01:00:55

Prophets, the Writings, also known as the Hebrew scriptures. He says, I believe everything John the poet says about the lamb, though I suspect we interpreted differently hermeneutics, you know.

01:01:05

And then he said, okay, to my definition of the Tanakh for him. I said,

01:01:11

John, the apostle spoke about the wrath of the lamb. I interpret his words in their original tongue and their original context.

01:01:16

A context that more broadly includes a similar picture in the non -poet Paul, 2 Thessalonians 1, 7 -8.

01:01:22

I meant, of course, that in 2 Thessalonians 1, 7 -8, he wasn't writing poetry. Not that he never wrote poetry.

01:01:29

His response. I don't know Greek, but others do. My go -to interpreters for Revelation are

01:01:37

Richard Balcom, Mark Gorman, Eugene Peterson. Okay.

01:01:44

My response. Sorry to hear that. The best commentary on the New Testament is the New Testament in Greek. I see numerous differences in even those men, but at least

01:01:53

I can critique them directly. You seem to be just following. Dangerous. So his response to me is, should

01:02:01

I just follow you? At which point I was getting frustrated.

01:02:07

So I said, how about doing some serious consideration of why you have to so grossly caricature your opposition, perhaps?

01:02:13

The straw men you lit up in both the Calvinism debate and against Michael Brown should have earned you 12

01:02:18

EPA violations. Be it as it may, you told Michael Brown you are not a

01:02:23

Martianite. Have you changed your position on the Tanakh recently? He responded,

01:02:28

Paul cranked out a pretty cool poem that you hear at a lot of weddings. Speaking of poets, the Hebrew prophets were poets.

01:02:36

And then he says, Richard Balcom, N .T. Wright, Richard Hayes, Eugene Peterson would agree, which is why I listened to them.

01:02:43

Agree to what? I'm not 100 % certain. Since clearly, I said to him, your view of the actual nature of the

01:02:50

Tanakh as noted in the cited article was worthy of Martian. He says, I'm not a Martianite. I confess the

01:02:55

Abba of Jesus is the God of Israel and that the Old Testament is Christian scripture. That's not Martian. I said, calling it scripture and then saying, but that's just what the

01:03:04

Israelites thought God was saying is a twisting of language. You know what really concerns me,

01:03:09

Brian? You call my God a monster, a pagan deity. I'm accustomed to that kind of rhetoric, but I'm an apologist.

01:03:15

I take the gospel into mosques and universities and your teachings leave the gospel without defense.

01:03:21

And you know what the real irony is, Brian? Your opening statement against Michael Brown was parallel in many ways. The opening made by dot, dot, dot, next tweet,

01:03:29

Sheikh Shabir Ali and our debate in the mosque in Erasmus, South Africa a year ago, followed by the URL to the

01:03:35

YouTube recording thereof. To which he said, but you're the guy that calls me a

01:03:40

Martianite. Well, as Fleetwood Mac saying, you go your own way. Blessings to you, adieu.

01:03:47

To which I responded, thanks for the convo. I will be continuing my review of your comments and dividing line, then gave the

01:03:53

URL to aomin .org. So that was Sunday. People saw that.

01:04:02

And so there's been a few little tidbits, you know, people log on to Twitter once a day or something like that, and they'll comment on something from 12 hours ago or something like that.

01:04:09

So a few things going back and forth. So somebody wrote to Brian Zahn and said, boy, I really wish you'd debate

01:04:16

James White on this, on these subjects. And he says, I participate in the two recent debates because I was asked to and have friendships with people involved, but I have no desire to participate in endless quarrels with Calvinists.

01:04:26

It doesn't help. It's not good for my soul. My response was endless quarrels is hardly what anyone is looking for.

01:04:33

But the two brief encounters of late were insufficient. Most importantly, the very nature of God's revelation needs to be clarified for that is truly the issue at hand.

01:04:43

Then, and I think I'll have to go grab something here. A guy who's

01:04:52

Nick was Z Hogue threw something out about you're looking for a

01:04:58

God of wrath and stuff like that. Yeah, someone in Twitter and in channel,

01:05:04

I've been informed twice that the quotation was from a

01:05:10

Johnny Cash song, which I I can assure you, I would have no knowledge of at all because sorry, my daughter likes

01:05:19

Johnny Cash. What? Oh, and clear, clean.

01:05:27

Creedence Clearwater Revival and Johnny Cash, which is why I would not know about either one of them.

01:05:32

I assure you. Yeah, let's debate that. No, sorry. Um, a guy named

01:05:40

Z Hogue throws something out. So I said, the Prince of Peace satisfied the justice and holiness of God, which is why he can bring peace, skip wrath and justice is gone.

01:05:48

What do you do with Revelation 6, 16, the wrath of the lamb? And then Zahn threw in everything in Revelation is symbol.

01:05:56

Every single image from the seven eyed lamb to the bejeweled city, it's all symbol, all symbol.

01:06:07

And to which I responded, the point of raising the passage is simple. Does your view of the lamb determine what scripture can say or does scripture determine your view of the lamb?

01:06:17

It's a major issue. And then I said this, there is a fundamental divide between those who believe in the perspicuity and authority of the scriptures and those who don't.

01:06:29

Man, I've been saying this for a long time. And I've been saying this long before there was anybody who had any clue who in the world we were.

01:06:39

I mean, for decades, there was a fundamental divide between those who believe in the perspicuity and authority of the scriptures and those who don't.

01:06:48

And Zahn's response was perspicuity of scripture. I love all capitals, that. What a laugh as if there aren't a thousand

01:06:57

Baptist denominations. Now, stop right there. Where have you heard that one before?

01:07:03

Where have you heard that one before? Man, that's Patrick Madrid. That's Jerry Matitix.

01:07:10

That's Rome. Now it's, it's in the exact same category error as if I'm talking about the perspicuity of scripture.

01:07:21

Well, look at all those Baptist denominations. The connection is exactly what again?

01:07:28

Never thought it through. Just as the Roman Catholic hasn't thought through their objections to solo scripture at any serious level most of the time.

01:07:38

The scriptures could be as clear as a day as long and still have all sorts of Baptist denominations. I can say that as a

01:07:44

Baptist. Perspicuity of scripture.

01:07:50

I love that. What a laugh as if there aren't a thousand Baptist denominations. All claiming their interpretation is a clear reading of scripture.

01:07:56

Pervasive interpretive pluralism. Yep. To which I said, you sound like my men, my Muslim debate partners.

01:08:02

Yes. Perspicuity of scripture, Pastor Zahn, when you actually believe it instead of picking and choosing according to your own predilections.

01:08:11

I do believe in the authority of scripture, he says. All you have to do is agree with my authoritative interpretation is all as well.

01:08:19

When you do not believe in its nature as revelation, I replied, the authority you give it can go no higher than your own mind.

01:08:30

Let me repeat that. When you do not believe in its nature as revelation and given what he said about the Tanakh, which he didn't even know about what it was, but it's men thinking about God.

01:08:40

So he has a grossly defective view of the nature of scripture. When you do not believe in its nature as revelation, which

01:08:50

I would argue he does not, the authority you give it can go no higher than your own mind. He responds, but you want me to submit to your predilections.

01:09:01

We need to get a magisterium. We'll have to become Catholics to settle this. It goes as high as the church.

01:09:09

Authoritative interpretation belongs to the church, not podcasts, a problem for us Protestants. Wow. Which again, he has such a defective bibliology.

01:09:22

He might as well. He doesn't have a sufficient word from God. So you might as well go to Rome.

01:09:29

So you can have somebody tell you what to believe. Because this explains it all, doesn't it?

01:09:36

Explains it all. My last word to him was, oh my, we are so far apart.

01:09:43

No wonder you think my God is a monster. And he finished it off by saying, yeah, we're pretty far apart for the foreseeable future.

01:09:51

In the meantime, feel free to keep talking about me in Christ, BZ. Brian Zond.

01:09:59

I'm going to try to, that's all in a, and I thank the gentleman who put this together for me this morning.

01:10:06

I was trying to put all this stuff together. It's hard to extract Twitter conversations. It really is. Especially if you're responding to stuff other than the first one.

01:10:17

Some people sent me stuff, but it only had like half of it or a third of it or even less than that of it.

01:10:23

It took a little work to put this together and it's now in an Excel spreadsheet. And I'd like to make it a little bit easier to read, but I don't have a lot of time this week.

01:10:33

So thanks for putting it together. But it really, really did illustrate what the fundamental epistemological theological differences are and why so often the conversations we have just go absolutely nowhere because we do not have a common foundation.

01:10:49

We do not have a common foundation. It's not found in scripture because they do not have a high enough view of scripture to root it there, to ground it there.

01:10:57

And that will help us as we continue on looking at Brian Zahn's opening.

01:11:03

So if you want us to get farther into Brian Zahn's opening, remember, it's

01:11:09

Brett Gates. Poor guy. No, we're not picking on you,

01:11:15

Brett. But that's what happens when you throw stuff like that at me in Twitter, and I'm going to end up getting distracted.

01:11:24

Anyways, thanks for listening to The Dividing Line today. It was clearly live, as you can tell, and Lord willing, we'll be back on Thursday.

01:11:31

And then Monday, heading for South Africa. I hope you're praying about that.

01:11:36

We'll be talking about it on Thursday about what's scheduled, stuff like that.