October 4, 2005

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Dave Hunt, Calvinism, and False Gospels

And welcome to the dividing line this morning another edition of radio free Geneva as we finish examination of Jack Graham's anti-calvinism sermon. A Task and a task it has been we began last week at this time.

You can see some of the reasons why you need to do this on our blog today. You will notice a Citation of Dave Hunt. I believe I mentioned this and I had to do it rather briefly because I was burning Very expensive internet access on the ship when this particular Edition of Hunt's newsletter came out, but you may recall the article.

Actually, it was a question from a reader and a response from Dave Hunt in regards to his view of the Calvinist gospel and he torturously runs around, you know does his misrepresentation thing and and throws out various red herrings and canards and all the rest that kind of stuff that Dave Hunt is famous for and Then he Finishes with this as I put it outlandish statement could someone who believes this false gospel of Calvinism be truly saved.

Fortunately many Calvinists you among them were saved before becoming Calvinists. They now malign God by saying that he is pleased to damn multitudes though He could save all and that he predestines multitudes the lake of fire before they're even born.

But having believed the gospel before becoming Calvinist they shall not come into condemnation. But have passed from death unto life. John 5 24. Those who only know the false gospel of Calvinism are not saved.

While those who are saved and ought to know better, but teach these heresies will be judged for doing so. I chuckle only because we have documented that that Dave Hunt, you know, you know. The simple fact the matter is he's he's now making money off of this kind of false teaching and this misrepresentation and and He won't stand behind his words he can't he knows he can't and he's hiding and and he's cowardly on this issue.

That's all there is to it and he knows why he knows he would lose any debate He did on this he and if you know you you're gonna lose then why do you keep saying the things you're saying? I don't know.

But anyways. But the funny thing is it's his antinomianism. I mean Dave Hunt's theology is really messed up it's amazing that he's allowed to teach almost any place at all because his theology is such a mishmash of all sorts of different things and He holds to the Wilkin Antinomianism and that's where you get this idea.

Well, as long as you believed the true gospel before you became a Calvinist, then you can't be lost. And if you look on the marine call website now, you'll see that Calvinism is right before below. Why would Calvinist Calvinism be below Catholicism?

Hmm maybe it's right above it. Anyway. You know, they're both heresies. They're both false Gospels. And you know, he's joined the Crusade and and he's out there. Repeating of course Roman Catholic arguments against Calvinism, but he doesn't seem to recognize that or if he does He's doesn't care one way or the other so you can see it right and what he says states there.

You know you John 524 as long as you believe right once. Then you can believe a false gospel after that and you'll you'll still be saved. Whether it's Calvinism, I would how about Catholicism Dave? How about Mormonism?

How about any of those things? Amazing stuff. That's why we have to deal with this kind of argumentation even though as normal it is argumentation that is Far below anything that's overly meaningful as far as having any kind of Substance to it, but it is what's out there.

It's sort of like listening to the a lot of the political rhetoric these days. Most of what you hear was a waste of the breath that took to say it anyways. But we continue on with the Jack Graham for those of you who were not here last week did not hear the last two programs.

This was a sermon delivered recently at a 24 ,000 member Southern Baptist Church. I keep forgetting to look up because I know that these statistics are online where I could find out how many people actually attend on a regular basis and if I recall correctly there was a Some fascinating information.

Maybe I can look it up while we're listening here in Regards to how many people at this particular church have to be baptized before you get a single person attending regularly. It's it's an outrageous number.

And it's that that says a lot about what's going on in various sundry Places shall we say in evangelicalism? We only have about four minutes of the sermon left to listen to though, so For those of you who've just been itching to defend what What dr. Graham has been saying I understand many people have been dropping emina emails as I mentioned last week.

You was invited to participate in our 2006 debate prior to the cruise in Tampa and declined very very quickly and Other other invitations are going out to other folks. We will see what happens with all of that, but anyhow we continue with this sermon.

We are about 18 minutes into it. Let me just back it up here a few seconds. So we get a little bit of context as we roll in here in fact I'm gonna back it up about half a minute just we can get some context here as we continue on.

And we are playing something here You won't find.

Because there isn't. Listen to Hebrews chapter 2 in verse 9 That he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. He tasted death. He died for all. Isaiah 53 in verse 6 said all we like sheep that God astray every one of us had turned into our own Way, but the Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all.

No one's a prophet. Isaiah would later announce. Oh everyone who thirsts. Come and buy and eat and drink and the water of life. One final word reason I reject this hyper view of grace and that is the commission to his church.

First John 4 4 says Jesus is the Savior of the world. Jesus said go into all the world. A ll there it is again go into all the world and preach the gospel.

Now of course we responded to the beginning of that Hebrews and things like that last week. Go into all the world. Well, of course the quote-unquote hyper view of grace called Calvinism that he never bothers to even identified says exactly that and in fact those early missionaries were were Calvinists in the modern period anyways and They go into all the world because they believe that God has his people in all the world and hence when you preach the gospel In all the world God will honor the proclamation of that gospel.

There is nothing in any way shape or form that is relevant To the debate itself to emphasize the term all there other than to highlight the fact that he has misused the term all and Has not even begun to interact with the meaning of the term where it appears elsewhere.

In his previous comments, that would be about the only reason why he'd repeat it. But obviously Calvinists believe the command to go to all the standard canard is of course that well. If God has determined who he's going to save then it doesn't matter what we do.

And of course the standard response is that God has ordained the ends as well as the means he calls us to do this. He uses us it is our great privilege if we obey him and we honor him. We will do what he says to do in that context and that God uses us in that way and It would be nice if it seems very obvious to me very very clear to me that not a single reformed work was even Even looked at in the preparation of the sermon.

This is as as I've pointed out before Warmed over Dave Hunt's and Adrian Rogers that's all it is even down to the the utilization of phraseology and Terminology in the order of things from hunt and and we saw the same thing with Rogers and that's all it is.

It's just let's borrow this from somebody else. Maybe he was seeing some quote-unquote Calvinism coming into especially the Bible studies that happens when you study the Bible. People read John 6 they read John 10.

They read Romans 8 and 9. They read 2nd Timothy chapter 1. There's this stuff about predestination election in there and it and it's pretty clear about what it's talking about and so maybe you heard about some of this coming into the fellowship there and the tradition defense mechanism kicked in and you go and you get some of Adrian Rogers sermons and you pick up Dave Hunt's book and you use that as the outline and You you go out and and do this and that's what ends up happening.

Sadly. But it's very clear that that there was no thought. You know, I Wonder what the Calvinist think about this. I wonder I wonder if Calvinists have ever heard these objections before. Maybe if I'm really concerned about this that I'll want to do the best job I can.

And so maybe I should listen to what somebody else has to say and and see how they respond to this and see if they can Give a biblical response.

Well, anyway If God would only save the elect If God is going to do it with us or without us, why should we go and there we go? I Know the answer would be well because he told us to go. Uh-huh. And we're just keeping his commandment and yet how foolish it would be to go.

If in God's purpose in God's plan, everything is already predestined. That's why in 19th century England. 18th century England. Because this kind of theology is spread throughout the congregation there.

There were no mission programs. There was no real evangelism going on.

We're sorry Charles Hatton Spurgeon you were just dismissed and we're sorry that the first people that went out there were did happen to be Calvinist, but we just need to rewrite history here. We just need to completely turn history on its head and and blame Calvinism for that hyper Calvinism.

Maybe you could get there. But the problem is of course that Jack Graham doesn't know the difference between hyper Calvinism and Calvinism. Because it doesn't care to get this stuff accurate to get it right the first time around and so.

Wow. Again just just absolutely amazing.

While there are rare exceptions and I I Acknowledge exceptions to what I'm about to say while there are rare exceptions in great part. This kind of hyper theology of Calvinism is the death sentence the missions and evangelism.

Ah.

It's snuck out. I just happened to be I popped open the founders blog while we were listening to this and there is Tom Askel responded to this sermon and there's a direct quotation of this right in front of me just sort of sort of happens that it just was right where I was looking and Tom Askel responded well, I for one would like to know of one exception.

I cannot think of a single person in history Who is believed what Jack Graham is described who did not also completely reject evangelism missions. But then again, I cannot think of anyone in history who actually believe what Jack Graham is described.

Just who does he think is an exception unless of course as seems obvious. He is simply misrepresenting Calvinism by constructing a straw man and then destroying it. This kind of display of theological ignorance is very sad.

Jack Graham titled the sermon the truth about grace at best. This is false advertising. This is by the way, if you'd like to go look at this this is. Right at the end of August August 28th and 31st is Tom Askel's response the same sermon if you'd like to take a look at on the founders ministries blog and It would be well worth your taking the time to take a look at it because it would be you know, just another voice out there saying the same things except this time in the context of I Just saw a picture on this it's pretty pretty wild in the context of a written response on the blog and From someone other than just myself here.

Here's I think this yeah here it is. Okay, I Am pretty certain. I'm about 95 certain that these numbers by the way are reflecting Prestonwood Baptist Church and. And if if not a I apologize, but I'm pretty certain that this is Prestonwood and B.

It would be very representative of Prestonwood. Well, you know, I'm just looking at this and it's saying 29 ,000. I'd be even larger. So yeah, if you look at the blog entry for August 21st. Fascinating thing because this this just represents very much the Southern Mass Convention Day.

Here's a church they didn't give you the name here. So not so much to protect the innocent but protect the guilty. 2001 had twenty seven thousand nine hundred and five members 279 21 ,000 five hundred fifty five of them actually lived somewhere nearby.

They had that means twenty one thousand five hundred to five resident members that means good night, what is that eight thousand. Three hundred and fifty non-resident members. What's a non-resident member?

That's somebody who's on another planet. They've already left. They died and they haven't you know, haven't faxed in their membership release form from heaven or something 982 baptisms 683 other additions.

That's 2001. So you've got yeah just passing through so you've got 21 -5 resident members. Primary worship attendants 9 ,000 9 ,000 35 2002 that was 28 325 801 baptisms 9186 primary worship 2003 they are at 28 837 members 21 ,000 680 21 ,000 987 resident members almost 22 ,000 resident members and maybe that's the what they're counting.

Maybe this is Preston wood. And this is just counting the actual people who are actually somewhere within, Texas somewhere 774 baptisms and a drop to 88 28 primary worship attendants in 2004 22 ,000 189 resident members 774 baptisms 667 other additions and I can I can guarantee you if they had 666 they would have found somebody somewhere to add in there and the primary worship attendants 9168 in primary worship attendance, so if you look at 2001 to 2004 You've gone from nine thousand thirty five to nine thousand one hundred and sixty eight.

Okay, when you add up all the baptisms and additions six Thousand fifty one people joined the church from 2001 to 2004 the primary worship attendants Increased Six thousand additions the primary worship attendants increased by 133 the resident membership increased By only a total of six hundred thirty four during that period of time, but you baptized 6051 people so as The blog points out is this the kind of evangelism they want to propagate in the Southern Baptist Convention the kind that has to baptize five people.

To increase a church's membership by one resident member four years later, or that has to baptize 25 people to gain one new worshiper four years later 25 to get one. Wow amazing. Behind the hind the hind the hind the hind the just just Unbelievable.

You know the the Southern Baptist Convention Indicates there are sixteen million two hundred and eighty seven thousand four hundred and ninety four members in Southern Baptist Church is sixteen. Let's let's just make it easy.

Sixteen point three million Southern Baptists right how many Could be found on any one Sunday morning in Southern Baptist churches. That's what I'd like to see. That's what I'd like to see if this very large church is any is any indication.

Let me do a quick. Isn't the calculator on On a computer a wonderful thing you can get to it so quickly. Let me figure something out here if that church is You know representative okay if we have sixteen point two million Times that amount of attendance.

We're looking at only five million on any given Sunday attending five million in primary worship attendance. Well and what portion of them go to Sunday school. What about I'm trying to remember when I was in a large Southern Baptist Church?

Well what maybe? Two-thirds at best. So you might have three point five million people Getting exposed to the in-depth Bible study teaching of Southern Baptist Church. Oh My goodness. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I think that does help to explain why this kind of sermon could have been preached. I really Really do. Wow. Well, anyway, we continue on here. It is.

The Great Banquet and the Gospel Invitation

Remember when Jesus told a story about a King who had a banquet. And he invited all of his friends those closest to him. He invited all the bigwigs of the city to come send out the invitation and then they all begin to make excuse and nobody wanted to come Jesus said.

Then the king said to his servants Go out into the highways and in the hedges Go into the streets and the lanes go wherever the people are find the blind find the lame find the sick find the hurting find the helpless find the outcast.

Go out there where people are and Compel them to come in.

Compel. Compel. They have to come in of their own free will. Right. Is that really what the parable is about? Dr. Graham, I thought this had to do with the Jews rejecting the message of Christ and now the king is sending.

There's the. Could we have a little context please just a little context just a small amount somewhere. So we can say that we're actually dealing with with with the Bible at all. Invite them in. That my house.

May be full. Was he talking about the church house? No the heavenly house and God has commissioned his people because this is the invitation of the gospel Come one come all. And just in case we didn't get it earlier in the last chapter of the Bible the last invitation of God's Word is given in Revelation chapter 22 and verse 17 and I'm going to close with this.

Revelation 22 and verse 17 and the spirit and the bride say come And let him who hears Come and let him who thirsts.

Come for all true. Who thirsts? Who has ears to hear? Who will come? All that the father gives me will come to me and the one coming to me I will never cast out. No one has the ability to come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I'll raise him up.

Isn't it the same author? Dr. Graham. Who wrote Revelation? Who wrote John 6? Same guy, right? So maybe we might want to look at what he said. Before he wrote Revelation. Possibly maybe a little bit of context there.

Whoever desires let him take of the water of life. Yes, whoever desires.

So does that mean you're going to be walking around in the graveyard offering the water of life to dead people. Dead people don't desire the water of life. The enemies of God do not desire to submit to him.

The natural man does not receive the things the Spirit of God their foolishness to him. The cross is a scandal on Foolishness. Hello. Let's read the whole Bible. Shall we? Let's allow it to speak to all of this.

Shall we? It's so easy to raise your voice and Do the preacher thing.

But if you're gonna do it at least do it with truth. Whosoever will may come. So we go in Jesus name saying come one come all that Jesus Love you loves you that he died on the cross for you that he rose again.

And that you can have a life that is abundant and a life that is eternal if you will place your faith and trust in Jesus personally. Whosoever will may come. Whosoever heareth shout shout the sound. Spread the blessed tidings all the world around tell the joyful news wherever man is found.

Whoever will may come. Whosoever will may come.

Obviously assumption evidently being that whosoever somehow has something to do against Calvinism and If someone had read a single book on the subject They would have understood that it has nothing to do with Calvinism because it's not a matter of all the ones Believing or whosoever as if that means.

Well, there's no election. It is who will come who are going who's gonna do these things. Who knows of their hunger? Who knows their thirst. Who knows their need? Dead enemies of God or those who have been Quickened and enlightened by the spirit of God.

That's the question of course and if you've been waiting for an in-depth Interaction with that from dr. Graham. You're not going to get that in this particular sermon because there's only like two minutes left.

Whosoever will may come. Send the proclamation over veil and hill. It is a loving father who calls the wanderer home whosoever will Make up. That is why Preston would. We are always giving the invitation and inviting people saying whosoever will.

Saying come to the same the spirit. And the bride says come drink of the water of life. Yes, the grace of God has appeared to all and yes the grace of God has appeared to you. I.

Don't know how many times you can miss sight Titus chapter 2 in one sermon, but it's a new record. We should sit down and count them out. How many times how many times can you miss sight a passage in one sermon?

This one may set the record. I don't know. It is the grace that saves. Bring salvation not make salvation possibility brings its saving grace. That's why it teaches us to deny ungodliness. But we just keep getting it massacred that way over and over and over again.

So with heads bowed and eyes closed, I want to invite you To receive this grace in Jesus Christ to trust in his salvation. By praying a prayer like this. You're not here by accident. You're not here by chance.

Well, they're not.

Well back up the truck see as soon as you start that's just. So. They're not there by accident. So God sovereignly overrode their will to get them there. Is that is that what he did? I know for most people today.

Oh, you're being picky you you don't need to be Consistent you don't need to worry about whether what you're saying now is consistent with what you said before and you know what? That's just not true.

You don't honor God by being inconsistent. You don't honor God by saying yes and no at the same time about the same thing. That's not how you do it. I'm not gonna we're not no reason to listen to the the rest of the invitation.

Trinity, Roman Catholic Controversy, and Upcoming Debates

We've all heard that one many many times before so eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We haven't you know, if you'd like to. If you'd like to defend this if you'd like to say hey I think it's great that you have to baptize 25 people to get one person attending that's what we all need to be doing that and I Think that Calvinism is the reason for all sorts of terrible horrible nasty things.

I agree with Dave Hunt. I agree with Jack Graham. I agree with all these people that are out there. Ranting and raving away against Calvinism and I agree that they shouldn't debate this issue. They should not actually debate this issue.

They should just simply engage in these monologues and it doesn't matter if they accurately represent what they're saying. They just that's that's their right. That's they need to do if you'd like to defend that.

I'm not really up there. There's a phone that there's there's line whether that's someone wanting to defend that or not. I don't know eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We're gonna actually take a break this week while the phone lines explode and then we're right back.

Try to save your soul from death. It's all works righteousness, you know. Can I manufacture grace myself. Some religious place by weeping hard on your face.

The Trinity is a basic teaching of the Christian faith. It defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us. James White's book The Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters.

It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a Christian and Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit.

The Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the Trinity. Dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help layperson and pastor alike.

Highly recommended. You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org. More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together. They are standing shoulder-to-shoulder against social evils they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and Many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing.

This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age-old disagreements that have divided Protestants and Catholics. Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language?

James White's book The Roman Catholic Controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass purgatory and indulgences and Marian doctrine. James White points out the crucial differences that remain in regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself.

They cannot be ignored. Order your copy of The Roman Catholic Controversy by going to our website at a omen org.

John, Mark, and the Problem of Unbelief

And welcome back to the dividing line. We only have one brave caller at the moment. I know that he's not. I don't think he's going to be seeking to defend that but hey, you know what the. Phone lines are available.

877 -753 -3341 is the phone number. Let's go ahead and talk with Chris in Indiana. Hi Chris. Hi James. How you doing?

Oh fine. It's been a while since I've Spoke to you and it's always a pleasure to get to speak to you. I just wanted to say on your website that I went ahead and through the Calvinist gadfly letter to Dave Hunt and.

And ask him even if a person can come, you know he understands and they receive him as Savior and believe in the physical resurrection and. You know, it's called on even believing all that if he's still and that he that somehow he's going to end up in the lake of fire and you know what I.

Just sound sarcastic and and I guess maybe in a way it's meant to be but I asked him what love is this Dave? You know because I mean, isn't that really what he's. You know, his whole problem has been with the idea of Calvinism and.

And you know, he's really going too far and and I you know, I told him, you know I used to enjoy getting the Berean call right letter. He always used to have some interesting but anymore I mean it's causing me this.

Well. Yeah, I mean there is it is clearly personal.

It's become a crusade unfortunately and and there is a shrill there's a shrillness to it that sadly is is very very obvious and I Here's this is a good illustration Chris of why? People have to be involved in sound local New Testament churches because there really isn't anyone that I know of who can go to Dave hunt and say Dave dude, you've completely missed the boat here.

You need to back off and you need to reevaluate we're saying there isn't anyone who can do that. That's and and that's not the way it's supposed to work. And by the way, if this gives you an indication We should have been and I certainly was and and I've mentioned this many many years ago but we should have been looking very carefully at especially at the uses of quotations by Dave hunt in all of his material for example The Godmakers materials that he was involved with I had two years ago publicly repudiate that kind of material because it was Inaccurate in its representation of the LDS.

The problem is there are a lot of folks who go well. Who cares if he's misrepresenting the Mormons if he's getting most of it, right? Yeah, and now you know and and that's why I could never recommend any of his stuff on Roman Catholicism because he did the same thing Roman Catholic apologists do not respect Dave hunt on that level because he does the same thing with quotations and citations and so.

Now we see it being done against us and it's like oh wait, wait, wait. Well, this is nothing new Dave sees on a piece of paper in a book on a page What his tradition and what his position allows him to see and nothing more and that's been the case from the very start and so, you know at least some of us have been consistent in saying, uh, wait a minute this stuff is whoa careful and In fact the last time I was in well wasn't last time I was in st. Louis.

But the last time that he and I spoke at the same gathering, let's put it that way. I think it was As one of the last two times anyways He spoke on some stuff going on at Willow Creek. Well, okay. There's lots of stuff at Willow Creek that you can you can criticize but afterwards I had people come up who had traveled there from Willow Creek and They said no, no, wait a minute.

We were there When what he was just talking about took place and what he didn't say was this this and this yeah. And so it's like yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. There's there's some real consistency here sadly on Mr. Hunt's part in being a bad researcher in the sense of allowing his traditions to determine what he's going to see on A page and what he won't and for Dave, of course, he says he has no traditions and therefore it's not really overly relevant.

But that's what happens when you think you don't have any traditions and they in fact have you under their complete and total control.

You know, that's too bad. I wanted to mention one other thing that I found quite interesting. Especially since it only happened like a couple of days after I heard first heard you a speak of this man Jack Graham.

Dividing line. I happen to be watching.

Fortunately on the Trinity broadcasting network. Did did you just did you know wait a minute? Did you just accidentally hit that button or?

You know. My wife gets mad at me for even turn it on because she says all I want to do is pick it apart. There you go. I told her. I said, well, you know, there's an awful lot to pick apart. But I try to watch what I think is sound and good.

Anyway life outreach international. It's a James Robinson. Yes Reacher for a long time and who actually I've always thought kind of highly of. He's done a lot of good mission work overseas and and. Usually he's been pretty sound evidently down in Dallas just here recently.

There was something called a global.

They have small arenas in Dallas. No, I don't think so but.

This man Jack Graham was among some other people at Tony Evans that Rick and James Robinson. We're all speaking about being unified and how the body of Christ needed to come together and we need to break down denominational wall.

Jack Graham was a man that was calling for this and and you know I heard this and then I'm on your broadcast on the dividing line and I thought now wait a minute, you know. Would we fit in here? Holding to what we believe after just hearing what you know.

He preached at his own church at this call for for unity and ended now, you know. He says if you peeve and use it to bludgeon somebody like a theological quote here. Hmm, and I thought you know There's something missing here.

Not everybody's here and will have some well.

Yeah, especially if you're going to stand in front of thousands of people and say that what they believe is wrong. It would be somewhat helpful if you have an idea of what it is. They're saying but you know this unity call.

You know it always it always gets to certain people, you know. You all you gotta do is quote from John chapter 17 and yet when you read John chapter 17 you know Jesus does speak about his followers being one even as he is in the father and the father's and he and there is this Supernatural unity that exists amongst the people of God, which I would point out.

I believe does exist. It's not just something that's future. But it in fact goes to Paul's teaching that we've all been baptized in one body. We all partake of one spirit, but the other emphasis of John 17 is normally left out and that is Sanctify them in your truth.

Your word is truth this idea of truth being definitional of what of the only kind of truth that Christians can be unified upon and what happens when you try to create a unity like this is you have to go for you remember back in the Junior high in high school.

We learned about the least common denominator. What is what's what's the the one thing? We all can agree on and Ecumenism in general and normally people think of ecumenism as only with Roman Catholicism, but it's really not it's much broader than that and the ecumenical spirit automatically breeds a a disrespect for any distrust of Dogmatic clarity and and doctrinal certainty now.

That's normally because the people they're arguing against can very clearly there's no one has ever ever said that there is no one who is Unloving that there is no one who has used Doctrinal formulations as a club to beat somebody else over the head with.

I mean that does Take place all of us have experienced that in one way or another. But that doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater. It doesn't mean you disrespect truth and you can't claim to be accurately representing John chapter 17 if you don't allow both of those Emphases to be there you because the you end up creating a unity that mutes the gospel and I remember sitting in the control room with Hank Hanegraaff and Tim Staples many years ago.

This is 1996 now nine years ago when we did this program and I forget was two or three hours of first time that Staples and I were on and Toward the end of the hour. There was some I Guess I would call it lack of clarity as to the relationship.