May 10, 2023 Show with Kevin Vigneault on “Foundations for Evangelism”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson,

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens

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have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener,

with your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity

living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 10th day

of May, 2023.

And I am absolutely thrilled to have a first -time guest on the program.

He's somebody that I've known for a number of years, but this will be our first

opportunity to have a discussion live on the air on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

His name is Kevin Vigneault.

He is pastor of Community Connections at Lakewood Baptist Church of Milwaukee,

Wisconsin.

And today we're going to be addressing the theme Foundations for Evangelism.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor

Kevin Vigneault.

Thanks so much for having me, Chris.

I'm excited to join you on this and have enjoyed listening to your radio in the past, and I'm just

thrilled and privileged to be able to join you today.

Yes, I was saddened to hear that you had left Long Island where you were pastor

at one point at the Bible Church of Port Washington.

But obviously I'm happy that you have found a new home in Milwaukee,

Wisconsin, where you are rejoicing to use your gifts there.

And so we are excited to hear about any updates on praise

reports from you at this new post of yours.

I don't know how new it is, because time, when you get to be my age, 61

years of age, time flies by a lot more quickly than you want it to.

So first of all, before I even go into your own story,

tell us about Lakewood Baptist Church of Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Yeah, so Lakewood was planted about 13 years ago.

And actually while I was in Bible college out in this area in the first place.

So I got to hear of the Lord's work in this church plant and met the

pastor back then who planted the church and continues to pastor here as one of my partners in ministry.

A couple of very close families, friends of mine, two families that I knew from my childhood

home back in New Hampshire, moved out to Wisconsin and they were part of the church plant as well.

So I was always impressed from a distance at Lakewood and what God was doing here

and watched it from afar, mostly through social media.

And then, yeah, about two and a half years ago, my wife and I were in New York.

And that's where I know you from, of course, Chris.

And we were asked if we'd submit a resume and the initial response was

no.

But then we were asked if we'd at least pray about it.

And, of course, once we started praying about it, the Lord guided our steps here and he's

been very gracious.

Our church is growing.

We've been seeing a lot of folks come to know Christ.

We've been seeing a lot of folks coming in just from the community.

I wouldn't even dare make a guess at how many baptisms we've been

able to have, privileged to have, in the last two years.

But I believe close to 40 or 50 baptisms, if I had to take a guess.

And it's just been a thrill to see God use the gospel in amazing ways here in

this area, just outside of Milwaukee.

And what specifically is your role and are your duties there

at Blakewood Baptist Church in regard to

being a pastor

I just lost where I had your information here.

Oh, pastor of Community Connections.

Sorry.

Tell us about that.

Yeah, so Community Connections is the external name or external title, I

guess you could say, that we would want the community to see.

And that's also an advantage for me as I meet people in the community.

Rather than saying I'm the pastor of evangelism or outreach and I'm here to evangelize you and outreach to you,

it just is a nicer front, I would say, towards the community.

So the church family knows me as pastor of evangelism, pastor of outreach.

And that is really my specific lane, of course.

We believe in a plurality of pastors, and so I do just about everything that any of the other pastors would do.

I teach, share the pulpit, teach Sunday school, disciple, do counseling, and

shepherd the flock.

But my specific lane, which I absolutely love, is

evangelism.

And so living a life, what that entails is just living a life of evangelism in the community.

Part of my job description is being in the community and sharing the gospel, as an example,

to the church family.

And then, of course, equipping the saints for the work of the ministry, bringing fellow believers alongside of me

and allowing them to share the gospel with me or watch me share the gospel with people in the

community.

And, of course, I teach classes repeatedly, usually about two a year it's

been over the last two years of having people come in and doing a class on evangelism.

And then often when I preach, of course, I'll end up covering something along the lines of evangelism in the

pulpit on a Sunday morning.

Well, if anybody wants more details on the Lakewood Baptist Church of Milwaukee,

Wisconsin, you can go to lakewoodbaptist .church, lakewoodbaptist

.church.

And hopefully I will remember to repeat that later on in the program.

What was it about our topic today, the foundations of evangelism,

that immediately made that issue come to mind when we discussed

having an interview?

You didn't have to think about it.

It was something that just immediately was on your heart and mind right in the

forefront to bring this as a topic of discussion on Iron

Trip and Zion Radio.

Now, obviously, it is a very important issue, so it's in one sense a no -brainer.

But is there any specific reason that compelled you to say to me, I want to talk about the foundations

for evangelism?

Sure.

Yeah, I don't want to get ahead of you, but I feel like the best way to answer that question would be to share my testimony briefly.

I grew up in a home where, or I was born into a home where my parents were not

Christians.

My mom came to know the Lord when I was four years old, and my dad came to know the Lord when I was six years old.

My mom began sharing the gospel with me immediately.

And of course, I was on the younger side already, but right when I could have really started understanding the gospel

when I was four.

So right after she got saved, she started sharing the gospel with me.

And I believe the Lord did do a work in my heart at the time, and I made a clear profession of faith in

Christ.

But as many young children do, I struggled with assurance.

I struggled with, you know, a day after fighting with my sisters or

disobeying my parents, I would pray, Lord, if I'm not saved, please save me.

And I always was struggling with that.

And then the Lord worked in my heart when I was nine years old.

I can't even remember what was talked about, but it was a Wednesday

night.

And I remember very clearly coming home that Wednesday night and just getting on my knees

on the floor and crying out to the Lord and recognizing that I was saved because Jesus Christ

was the ultimate and perfect sinless sacrifice.

I was saved because he obeyed his parents perfectly, not because I obeyed my parents.

And it was just a, I think, a maturing of my faith at that moment.

But I remember very, very clearly that night, just at nine years old,

praying to the Lord and saying, if this is true, which it is, I can't think of doing anything else

in my life other than just serving the Lord full time in whatever capacity the

Lord would have me serve him in.

And at that time, I was planning on going to Africa, and that lasted for a while.

I went on a couple mission trips to New York City, which piqued my interest in New York City.

And the burden behind my wife and I moving to New York City was that's where all the fish are.

You know, if you're going to go fishing, you're going to want to go fishing where all the fish are.

And so we had a burden to go where there were many lost people and share the gospel.

So all that to say, from a very young age, God has given me a passion

for evangelism, from basically nine years old and on, to just be sharing the

gospel with people.

And I'd say I'm a jack of quite a few trades, but a master of none.

And so when you brought up, you know, if there's any topic that you'd be interested in discussing,

evangelism is right at the top of the list simply because God has given me a passion for it.

And he's allowed me, especially at Lakewood, to really hone in and spend 90

percent of my time dwelling on evangelism and how to do it effectively and how to care for people in

that way.

Oh, so I guess you're not a Calvinist.

I'm just kidding, of course, because that is one of the greatest lies

ever perpetrated by those who are enemies of the doctrines of grace.

And those who are enemies of the doctrines of grace are most often, in my experience, people

who are just totally ignorant of the doctrines of grace.

They've only heard a slanderous caricature of what we believe and have only

read what the enemies of the doctrines of grace have written about it.

They've never read those who have been champions of those teachings for centuries.

So they have a very false view of what we believe.

And very often they go on their own flawed and faulty

presuppositions that they think logically connect.

If you believe that God is in sovereign control over salvation, then

why do you need to evangelize, et cetera, et cetera?

But we both know that this is a means that

our sovereign Lord uses to bring his elect to himself and save

them.

He commands us as Christians to do it, and he uses us to

plant seeds, water them, and water them, knowing that he is the one that gives the increase.

And so evangelism is what God uses

as his normative means to bring the lost to salvation.

And I would include in evangelism someone preaching the gospel from a pulpit, because a part

of a good sermon should include some aspect of evangelism.

But I'm assuming you would agree with what I've said so far.

Yeah, absolutely.

One of the foundations in my evangelism class is pointing out that our hope and trust is in

God and how he has elected and will save people, and that that actually gives us

confidence and boldness in sharing the gospel.

One of my favorite passages, of course, and you're probably expecting me to go here

on this topic, but in Acts 18, we see Paul needs some

encouragement as he's in Corinth sharing the gospel.

And Christ came to him.

The Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, Do not be afraid, go on speaking, and do not be silent.

And the reason he gives for this is he says, For I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many

in the city who are my people.

And then it says that as a result of this conversation, Paul stayed a year and six months teaching the word of

God among them.

So it gives actually great courage and hope and as a motivation for sharing the gospel, knowing that it's not dependent on

ourselves, but dependent on the work of the spirit.

Amen.

Well, I want to give our listeners our email address right away in the event that they have questions

on evangelism.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

So going through your foundations for evangelism, explain to us

the fact that we need to use wisdom in evangelism.

Yeah, absolutely.

So scripture is full of that, right?

Matthew 10, 16 talks about being wise and planning,

and planning is all through scripture.

And we need to take that to heart and recognize the importance that we are

in a culture that is, of course, anti -God, anti -Christ.

All men from birth believe or do not believe in God.

They do not worship the creator as they ought to.

Rather, they worship creation, as Romans 1 talks about.

So just we need to be wise in recognizing the culture that we're in

and understanding what can grab their attention.

And now I want to say just a couple things up front, and Chris, you already covered it.

We believe in God's sovereignty and election.

So anything I say today is not out of pragmatism.

But out of wisdom, and as we read the scriptures, when we see Jesus, he

reasons with people, he answers their questions, and he addresses people where they're at.

Paul does the same thing, of course, on his missionary journeys, and we want to be that same way.

So I use one illustration as simply a wrapping paper illustration.

We're going to wrap Christmas presents differently than we would birthday presents.

Or I've got three young children.

I've got a 10 -year -old, almost 8 -year -old, and a 5 -year -old.

And my 10 -year -old son's wrapping paper is going to look different than the wrapping

paper for my 7 -year -old daughter.

Well, with me, it's always brown paper bags.

Keep it simple, right?

So we clearly understand the message of the gospel does not change, right, no matter where

we are.

But dependent upon the person that we're talking to, we want to communicate the

gospel in a way that they will understand and is clear to them.

And this takes, you know, we see this very clearly with

missionaries.

We tell missionaries or we understand that missionaries do this all the time.

And they go to Africa, and they're going to learn the language, they're going to learn the culture, and they contextualize

to that culture that they're in.

And I think that's important for us to do now here in America and depending on where you live.

The Midwest, you know, I went from living in New York City for close to 10 years to the Midwest.

And so it's a completely different culture.

There are different religious backgrounds that I'm facing.

In New York, I was meeting a lot of Jewish folks, very strong, devout Catholics,

a lot of atheists.

In Long Island, as you know, Chris, you know, very, very low percentage of people who even

believed in scripture whatsoever.

So moving out to Wisconsin where I'm meeting a lot of Lutherans and other individuals who

have some foundations of scripture but may not have the gospel, we

recognize that, or I'm trying to recognize that and meet them where they're at in the presentation of the gospel.

And I'm assuming you did not mean by that that there are no Lutherans who believe in the

gospel.

Absolutely not, no, no.

I have met many wonderful Lutherans out here that do believe in the gospel, but I've met many also who

do not know the gospel.

And so reaching out to them in that way and knowing how to wrap the

gospel in that sense.

And even just there was more of a philosophy of what we're sharing and how we have a conversation.

But also we can zoom out and consider things like this.

When's the last time somebody knocked on your door to sell you a vacuum?

I'm just old enough that I still remember when I was a kid, you know, having a vacuum salesman come to our door

and come into our house and show us the rainbow vacuum system and

vacuumed our floors for us.

And my parents actually buying that vacuum.

Well, that doesn't happen anymore.

And I'd say even in post -COVID, now people aren't as open anymore to just having somebody

walk up to them on the street and begin a conversation.

Those things may happen occasionally.

But now people are more about, it seems, relationship and talking with people that they know.

So a big emphasis that we have at Lakewood and in the evangelism class or courses

that I teach is with an understanding of God's sovereignty.

That he's placed you in a workplace with coworkers, in a neighborhood with neighbors, on a soccer

team with teammates.

That he's placed you in those places already to be a light to those people who you have a relationship with.

And to actually cultivate that relationship and evangelize long -term.

A passage you already mentioned that there's watering, there's planting, there's

watering, but God gives the increase.

Very rarely will we have a two -minute gospel conversation with somebody on the street and see them come to know Christ,

right?

Rather, it takes time and cultivation of those seeds that have been planted

as the Spirit works in them.

So just a wisdom in recognizing the culture that we're in and meeting

people where they're at in that way.

And if I have time, I'd love to think right now would be a great time to introduce something that I call starting points.

Sure.

Perhaps just a brief moment of clarification.

Yes.

Knowing you, I know that you do not mean, as you've already indicated because you

already said that this is not an exercise in pragmatism.

You do not mean that we are to compromise truth to appeal to the lost.

We're not to pretty up the gospel, remove the bad news,

remove the sting of the bad news, which is actually what makes the gospel

good news and makes the gospel beautiful and wonderful and makes grace amazing.

It's the bad news that precedes it.

So I know that you're not talking about compromising that in order to appeal to the

interests and tastes of men.

Absolutely not.

Yeah, that's not what I'm saying at all.

What I'm pointing out, as I think you understand, is simply in

that one point was recognizing that people aren't as open to a stranger walking up to them on the

street or a stranger knocking on their door, right?

But rather reading our culture and looking to cultivate relationships so that in the long run, we actually

can share the bad news in a candid way, right, and in a clear way.

So for an example, I have a young man that I met through soccer

and started building a relationship with him.

And now over the last year and a half, we've had maybe eight to ten meals

together or met for coffee.

And now he's in the middle of an evangelistic Bible study that I'm leading out in Milwaukee at a couple's

house.

And it's taken time of a relationship with him to be able to peel back

all his faulty thinking, right?

And he actually made a profession of faith about a year ago and prayed.

I heard him pray, professing Christ as Lord and Savior.

And then just about two months ago, I'm having lunch with him again, and it was clear to me.

I was like, I don't think he understands the gospel.

So I asked him one of my favorite questions.

I said, if you were to die today and God were to ask you why should I let you into heaven, what would your answer be?

And he fell right back into, well, I'm a good person.

I've never murdered anybody, you know, that typical answer of dependence on self.

And so immediately I knew right where to go, and we went straight to the law.

And how pointing out to him how sinful he is compared to a holy, holy God

and his need of grace.

And that he cannot earn salvation, of course.

Amen.

Let's start on your points that you were going to mention after we return from the first commercial break, because I don't want to interrupt you in

mid -sentence while you're doing that.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our e -mail address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Let's say your church where you are a member has a different understanding and a

different practice of evangelizing the lost than you are

hearing discussed today.

Perhaps you disagree with your own church on that issue, and you're not ready to identify yourself

publicly.

Perhaps you're even a pastor, and you disagree with your own fellow elders or the denomination where you

serve on the issue of evangelism.

Whatever the case may be where you feel compelled to remain anonymous, we will grant your

request if it's a personal and private matter.

But if it's a general question on what the scriptures teach about evangelism, a general

question about anything my guest is saying today, please give us at least your first name, your city and

state, and your country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Pastor Kevin Vigneault after these messages from our sponsors.

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We are now back with Andy Woodard, and our topic today is

a very important topic, the foundations of evangelism.

If you have a question, send us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

And, Andy, before the break, as you may recall, we were getting into using wisdom in

evangelism, and you were about to give us some points under the umbrella of that theme, and if you

could begin.

Yeah, absolutely.

Just a reminder, it's Kevin, not Andy, but thank you for the great...

That was quite the compliment, so I appreciate it.

The reason why I said Andy is that the next question from a listener will be by Andy.

Oh, that makes me a little nervous that it's from Andy Woodard.

It is.

How did you know that?

All right.

Hopefully it's a serious question from Andy, but he's a good friend that both Chris and I know, so thank you for

the compliment.

Yeah, so I was going to just build off of, you know, we were talking about recognizing the culture we're in

and meeting people where they're at, and of course, as Chris, you pointed out, this is not watering down the message.

And we'll get into exactly what I mean by giving some illustrations, but one of the things that I

found very helpful that I teach to people are what the starting points are.

And so when I'm teaching people on evangelism, often I like to have a

whiteboard and I'll ask them, if we could boil down the truth to five

simple points, what are five simple points that somebody must understand and believe

in order to be saved?

And it's interesting because a lot of times it's a little bit of a struggle to get these five points from

believers.

But I would submit that they're this.

Number one is that there is a creator God who is holy, right?

Number two, that we are his creation.

And because we are his creation, we are accountable to him.

Number three, because there is a holy, creating God that we are accountable to as his creation,

it means that we are sinful and deserve to perish.

The wages of our sin is death.

And so this is the foundation, of course.

And as you already pointed out, there has to be bad news before you can get to good news.

And then number four would be turning the corner to the answer and introducing the hope of Jesus Christ,

that he is the sinless son of God, crucified, buried, and risen from the grave, and

that salvation comes through him.

He is the way, the truth, and the life.

Nobody comes to the Father except through him.

And then point five would be, what do you do with this truth?

How do you respond?

Believe in your heart, confess with your mouth, Christ Jesus is Lord, that God raised him from the dead, and you will

be saved.

So these are what I call the starting points, and I keep them numbered one through five.

And what I think is really helpful about them, especially in our culture, is I remember

back when I was in high school, and we would go out on Saturday mornings onto Main Street, and we

would strike up conversations with complete strangers.

And again, the culture lent its hand more to that style of evangelism, and I'm not against that for

today.

I just recognize the town that I live in is not open to that.

But as I would go and talk with people, most of the people I met on the street would

already believe that there was a creator.

Most of the people I met on the street would believe and understand that they were his creation and that they were accountable to him.

So those two points were already covered, you could say, and I would start on number three, pointing

out that because they're accountable to God, it means that they are sinful and deserve to perish.

But now, many, many of the people that I meet as I'm at the gym or playing

soccer with teammates, and I seek to have a conversation with them towards the

gospel, many people that I'm meeting now are atheists or

professing atheists.

I believe from Scripture that all men understand that there's a God based off of general

revelation and eternity placed in their hearts and the law of God written on their hearts.

But they're suppressing this truth, and they consider themselves atheists.

And so now my starting point, if I talk with them and I approach them the same way

that I approached somebody 15 years ago, starting on point three, there's no

foundation laid.

And so it's helping people to understand that when you're having a conversation with somebody, you need to first find out where

they're at.

Do you need to start on point one and point out first of all and argue for the fact that there is a

creator God?

Maybe you're starting on point two, that you're His creation and accountable to Him.

Maybe you're talking with somebody who has a church background and their church has

emphasized works, but they understand that there is a creator God and they're accountable to Him.

So we'd start on point number three.

And so that's just been a really helpful thing for me, at least, in having that

mindset when I go into a conversation with somebody of finding out where they're at and

where I'm starting.

And of course, the end goal is always to get to point number five, right, to share about Jesus Christ and then what a

proper response to Him is as Lord and Savior.

And so I found that really helpful.

Those are called starting points.

And that's just been something really encouraging to me or helpful to me to think through as

I'm sharing the gospel with people.

Well, as you already guessed or were somehow informed, our first question from a

listener today is our mutual friend, Pastor Andy Woodard of

Providence Reformed Baptist Church in New York City, one of the very few

churches in New York City that is standing firm against the heresies of

the woke movement.

And that is no little task in a place like New York City,

one of the most left -wing areas of the world.

So it takes courage to do such a thing, stand against that woke

movement, especially in the light of the fact that you are

certainly automatically filtering out many people that might otherwise

visit and join your church.

And when numbers are sometimes at stake because of finances

and keeping a church in existence, it's a bold move and a courageous move.

But Andy asks, he has two questions.

First, he says, friendship evangelism has gotten a bad rap in our

circles because it often stops with friendship and never gets to the evangelism part.

Do you find value in friendship evangelism or prefer proclamation without worrying about

relationship with a lost person?

Yeah, that's a great question.

So, in short, what I teach our church is to put an emphasis on the

relationships that you already have and developing relationships with people in the community.

But this is never to the neglect of sharing the gospel with somebody, let's say, on the

airplane, right?

You're seated with somebody for two hours.

They're in that sense a captive audience, right?

The closest thing we'll have to probably Paul, you know, being chained to the Roman guards and him

preaching the gospel to them.

And so, of course, I never want us to neglect those opportunities.

So, I try to spend a lot of time in the community and we'll meet a man at the gym.

And the first time I end up talking with him, able to turn the conversation to the gospel, and I'm all

for that.

But on the other hand, I think, again, we must understand that God is sovereign and he's placed us in

certain places.

And that there is something very healthy.

And from what I'm seeing, at least in the location that I am at right now,

building a relationship in order to communicate truth seems to be a way that the

Lord does work in a sovereignty very well.

And even back in New York, I was in a town of about 36 ,000.

And I would always tell people it was a tough area because it was about 50 Jewish, 50 devout

Catholic, and 100 rich.

And in the world's eyes, I had nothing to offer them.

But, of course, we know, according to scripture, and because of the grace of God, we

have everything to offer them.

And I was surrounded by Jewish neighbors.

And if somebody just walked up and knocked on the door of my Jewish neighbor and told them, I'm a Christian and

I want to talk to you about Christ, the door would have been slammed in their face.

But I developed, you know, a young couple across the street from us.

I spent years cultivating a caring relationship with them.

Now, I didn't wait years to share the gospel with them, right?

But it took years for them to be open to having a gospel conversation with me.

And seeing that I cared about them and that I didn't just want to tell them that Judaism,

that their belief was wrong and shove Jesus down their throat, but rather that I

cared for their souls and that I loved them.

And that's why I wanted to tell them about Jesus.

And so it opens up conversations with people who may never listen to you.

But, of course, there is always that danger that we get comfortable with the friendship and therefore we don't share the

gospel.

But, of course, we need to be motivated at all times to share the

gospel, recognizing the importance of it, that it's vital.

It's vital for our personal walk with Christ, right?

Fulfilling the Great Commission.

If we love Christ, we'll keep his commandments.

It's vital for the lost.

They are dying.

And it's appointed once for man to die.

And after this comes the judgment.

And it's vital for our church.

Every church is dying, we could say.

People are dying each week.

People are moving away.

And if a church isn't growing through evangelism, it's moving towards extinction.

And so those types of things must motivate us to get out of our comfort zone and share the gospel.

Pastor Andy's question reminded me of a phrase,

a slogan that makes me sick to my stomach that I have heard for

quite a number of years.

And it's always the most awkward thing when somebody who's a guest in this program

spews it as a truthful slogan.

And I have to announce to the audience that I'm in disagreement with my guest.

That is not happening here, of course.

But the slogan that is most often attributed to St. Francis of Assisi,

and I don't think it is clear or historically proven that he actually said this,

but the slogan is preach the gospel and use words if necessary.

That really annoys me because there are so many people who have adopted that under the umbrella

or understanding of friendship evangelism.

And if Jesus Christ and his disciples had had that motto that they live

by, they never would have been executed other than the for ordination of God himself.

So I know that that is not what you mean by friendship evangelism, because winning a

friend just so they can enjoy the benefits of having a Christian friend

is still going to march them through the gates of hell if they don't

hear the gospel, repent, and believe it.

Yeah, absolutely, and it's somewhat of an oxymoron if you're understanding friendship.

Evangelism to mean simply being a friend is evangelizing.

It's not evangelizing because evangelizing is the proclamation of the gospel verbally, right?

And Romans 10 lays that out for us very clearly, that one

cannot call on him whom they've not believed and they can't believe unless they've heard.

And how do they hear unless we preach, unless we tell them?

So the whole purpose of that relationship, of that friendship, is to verbally proclaim

the good news to that person.

And Pastor Andy's second question is,

many Christians will never lead someone to faith during their lifetime.

Do you have suggested realistic goals for Christians to have regarding seeing people come to Christ as

a result of their evangelistic efforts?

Some popular disciple -making books emphasize making one disciple per year

a Christian, and I was wondering what you think of that.

That seems to, in my opinion, in some way defy the understanding of the fact that we

are only planting and watering seeds and God is giving the increase, but what do you have to say about that?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I often encourage folks that we are called to be faithful, right?

We are called to proclaim the gospel.

God is the one who gives fruit.

So I may go through life and end up seeing

50 people come to know Christ through my personal evangelism, and another

brother or sister may go through life and never see someone

come to believe the gospel through their personal evangelism.

That does not mean that I was any more faithful than they were, right?

Now, if they were sharing the gospel, right, and that should be the goal.

That should be the goal, period, is to faithfully share the gospel.

So really, I just love it.

It brings to my mind Psalm 96.

Oh, sing to the Lord a new song.

Sing to the Lord all the earth.

Sing to the Lord.

Bless his name.

Tell of his salvation from day to day.

Declare his glory among the nations, his marvelous works among all the peoples.

I call this the Great Commission of the Old Testament, in a sense.

We are commissioned and called to go and proclaim the good news of Jesus.

And in fact, our expected response from people is rejection.

In fact, we have to pick up where you left off there because we have to go to our midway break.

Please be patient.

Please be patient, folks.

This is a longer break than normal.

We'll be right back with more of our discussion after these messages from our sponsors.

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Before I return to my guest today, Kevin Vigna, and our discussion on the foundations

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And, Pastor Kevin, before the break, you were just about to move on

to another point that involved the question by our mutual friend Andy

Woodard, who is Pastor of Providence Reformed Baptist Church in New York City, that

was affiliated with the controversies surrounding friendship evangelism,

if you could pick up where you left off.

Yeah, I think we were answering just the hard part of what if you go through

life and you never see someone come to know Christ, right?

And quite simply, it's a privilege.

Personal evangelism is a privilege.

It's not a duty.

It isn't work, right?

Christ did the work of salvation.

Evangelism is sharing the good news of that victory of Christ.

And we understand this, especially understanding the sovereignty of God and God's election and the work of the Spirit.

We do not save people.

We share the good news, and God does the saving.

And so for many people, much of their personal evangelism may be simply planting seeds,

may be cultivating seeds that have already been planted, but God is or watering, whichever

terminology you want to use, but God is the one who gives the increase.

So we should not measure our faithfulness based on seeing people saved.

Rather, faithfulness is based on our obedience, right, and sharing the gospel in a consistent,

faithful way, in a verbal way, right, consistently and faithfully because we love

Christ and we want to tell others.

Now, if somebody has never led anyone to Christ, if a church

is experiencing very low

growth numerically from newly converted individuals,

don't you think it is right and proper to at least examine yourself

in your life, to basically test yourself

as to whether you are evangelizing, to test whether you are,

as a church or as an individual, truly, zealously and passionately

sharing the good news of Christ?

And then, of course, if you are convinced that you are indeed obeying

Christ, you are indeed doing that, you don't need to torment yourself

over the fact that very few converts or any are

coming to Christ through your efforts.

We need not beat ourselves up if we are truly obeying Christ in this way and

we are not adding to the offense of the gospel

our own offenses because the gospel is an offense alone to the lost.

We don't need to say, you're a sinner who needs Christ for salvation and, by the way, I hate the tie you're wearing.

You're a sinner who's headed for hell but you're ugly too.

We don't need to add to the offense of the gospel.

But if we're convinced through honest self -reflection, we do

not need to torment ourselves.

Am I right that we shouldn't just fluff off the fact that either the church where we are a

member or in our own life, if no converts come to Christ through

our efforts, we shouldn't just fluff it off as being immaterial and inconsequential, right?

Yeah, I think there's definitely room for healthy consideration of how

you're approaching evangelism, of maybe your life, right?

One of my points that I was interested in bringing up today is the importance of a life well lived,

right?

Yes, evangelism only happens through verbal proclamation of the

gospel, of the good news, but we also need a life that lines up with that which we're proclaiming,

right?

And scripture is clear on that.

1 Peter 3 talks about this very

famous verse when it comes to apologetics and evangelism.

Verse 15, In your hearts, honor Christ as Lord, as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for the

reason for the hope that is in you, yet do with gentleness and respect.

It's really in the context of people seeing how you suffer, right?

And they see that we suffer differently than the rest of the world, and they go, why do you have this hope?

Well, you're able to give them an answer.

John 13, 35, Jesus says, People know my disciples by the love that you have for one another.

Philippians 2 talks about not grumbling or complaining, but working out your salvation with fear and trembling,

holding fast to the word of life, and that we are lights to

this crooked nation, right?

Or to this crooked and perverse generation that we are shining as lights

and living differently, of course.

Romans 6, Ephesians 4, no longer living as the Gentiles, no longer living in our sin,

but making externally visible the change that God has done internally in our

lives.

So, of course, there's room.

There's room definitely for healthy consideration of, is my life, is my

walk with Christ lining up with the message that I'm preaching?

But there's also no promise necessarily that we'll see a ton of people come to know Christ as we

share the gospel.

And Jesus said himself, the world hated me and rejected me.

They're going to hate and reject you as my followers.

Yeah, there have been famous missionaries who went overseas to

spread the good news of salvation in Christ, and their missionary efforts on a

human perspective of success were complete

failures.

But God used them to bring countless multitudes to Christ after their death

through the seeds that they planted.

So we can't even use what occurs as a result of our evangelism

in this life where we're alive as the true barometer of what

would be genuine success.

Absolutely, and we have no idea what God is doing behind the scenes.

So you may meet somebody on the street, share the gospel with them, the conversation in your eyes and your

understanding went absolutely nowhere.

But who knows, maybe in heaven, that person will walk up to you and say, You may not remember me, but God used

that conversation, and later on another person talked with me, and I came to know Christ as a result.

Amen.

And by the way, Pastor Andy Woodard of Providence Reformed Baptist Church in New York City

wants to say that New York is not the same without you.

Well, I miss New York and miss Andy as well.

And if anybody wants to find out more about the church where Pastor Andy is

ministering, Providence Reformed Baptist Church in New York City, go to pbc .nyc.

Pbc for Providence Baptist Church dot nyc.

I also want to let our listeners know about a book that has

been written by Andy Woodard, The Great Reset Christianity, How

Woke Evangelicals Twist Scripture to Advance the Left's Agenda.

That's Great Reset Christianity, How Woke Evangelicals Twist Scripture to

Advance the Left's Agenda.

And you could get that on Amazon.

And also Pastor Andy Woodard is going to be my guest coming up in the near

future.

Keep your eyes and ears open for that interview.

And in fact, I'm flipping open my calendar.

He is going to, God willing, be our guest on a Tuesday

in June.

And let me see here because I'm going blind.

I have to.

It's Tuesday, June 6th.

Pastor Andy will be on the program to discuss Great Reset Christianity, How Woke Evangelicals Twist Scripture

to Advance the Left's Agenda.

So please mark your calendar for that.

Let's see.

We have another listener question who is anonymous.

And the listener says,

Yeah, that's a great,

great point brought

up.

And I think it goes right back to that original point of using wisdom, right, in the culture that we're in.

If we're just throwing out words like propitiation and even mercy or grace,

there's not going to be an understanding.

Right.

So in order to communicate clearly with somebody the gospel, we need to use words that they understand.

So I encourage folks just to be very careful.

Go ahead.

I see you, Ancy, to talk.

Oh, I was just about to say, well, I'm pretty certain that the vast majority of

evangelicals themselves don't know what propitiation means.

And I would actually be delighted if more actually had that word as a part of the vocabulary.

But I understand what you're saying about that would be more of a reformed person's flaw of using

highfalutin terminology to impress people with the vocabulary and not even define what they're saying.

Right.

Yeah.

So it's it's just being being careful to use normal language that somebody can understand.

And again, to the point that we've we've already made, it's not what we're not saying is don't use

the word sin.

Right.

Or God's wrath or punishment or hell, but rather explaining words that people may

not understand.

So instead of saying, you know, Jesus, the Messiah, you know, died on the

cross, shedding his blood for the redemption of your sins.

You know, we can we can boil it down and say, you know, Jesus, the one whom God

sent as his son, God's son, God and human flesh died on the

cross, taking the punishment that you deserved upon his own shoulders, taking

God's righteous judgment, his upright judgment upon his

own shoulders, that you can be forgiven of your your breaking of God's law.

See what I did there.

So same exact message, but using words that somebody on the street will understand.

And let's move on, unless you are not complete with that

subcategory we were discussing using wisdom and evangelism.

If you have something else to say, let's hear it.

But you have another subheading under the foundations for evangelism, which is the

power of questions.

Yeah, yeah.

Power of questions.

So I did want to make one comment.

You know, I am myself a student, so I have to, of course, give credit.

None of these ideas I don't think are original with me.

So, of course, J. Max Stiles has been, you know, just used greatly by the Lord and my

passion for evangelism.

Who we're about to discuss Mark Dever, John MacArthur, and I'm sure many others as I've listened to

many podcasts and read many, many books on evangelism.

But, yeah, the power of questions brings up and this would be my encouragement to you if you are listening and you're interested in

really sharpening your evangelism.

Go get the book called Tactics by Greg Kalkol.

So helpful.

His last name is K -O -U -K -L, Greg Kalkol.

And he points out in his book many very helpful things, but one of the most helpful things that I found, at least, is

using questions in your evangelism.

It just creates a natural conversation, and we've already mentioned it.

I think just the past question that we had mentioned having this like rote script.

So going and talking to somebody and basically reading through a script like you're a salesman with the gospel.

That's not how any normal conversation happens anymore, right?

Or happened in the first place.

So as we're meeting with people and have an opportunity to share the gospel with them, really the

first thing that I do is I actually start asking them questions.

Where did you grow up?

And I'm asking questions that are leading towards an opportunity for me to ask, so

do you have a religious background?

Did you grow up in a church?

What do you believe?

Getting maybe to a right verse wrong.

Is there morality?

And asking leading questions, and it provides not only an opportunity

for me to see where to start in my evangelism with them, but

also when somebody talks, right?

When you ask them questions and they talk, what's the natural flow of conversation?

Well, if they talk for five minutes, then the natural flow of conversation is now I have an opportunity

to talk for five minutes.

And very often if they're a caring person or their eyes are open to normal

conversation, after you ask them questions, they'll start asking you questions.

And before they know it, you're sharing the gospel with them.

And it seemed very, very natural, like, oh, it just happened.

But you knew exactly what you were doing the whole entire time by asking them leading questions.

So it's a way to have a normal conversation and turn it towards the gospel.

It's also helpful to point out where their viewpoints are wrong.

So as you're having a conversation with somebody and they make a comment that is unbiblical or wrong,

maybe you have a good enough relationship with them and you can confront them right on the spot.

But also maybe that's a good time to ask a question of them to show them their faulty

thinking by asking a question.

We can also use questions just in normal argumentation towards them.

So, you know, somebody and this is a rabbit trail in evangelism, but it would be something that comes up very often

right now with abortion.

And they might say something like, I wouldn't kill a baby, but I don't think we could say another

mother shouldn't.

What if the baby isn't wanted?

What if the baby's a burden?

What if the baby can't be cared for?

And you can respond with simply, well, so you just said that abortion is killing a

baby.

So what about a one -year -old out of the womb who is a burden on their parents?

Should that young one be killed?

Right.

And now you flip their thinking and shown them where they're at fault by simply asking

the question.

And so just Greg has been incredibly helpful to me in

thinking well through interacting with people in a loving and caring way, but also

clearly pointing out things that need to be pointed out.

And as you're pointing them towards the gospel by the power of questions.

Yeah, Jesus Christ used that methodology.

Yeah, absolutely.

When he was every time he was being confronted with

individuals by his providence.

And so we have to be careful when we are speaking

with people to make it make the conversation all about us and our experience

in our church and show that we really are interested in

them and their never dying souls.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Jesus was obviously the great master of this and confronting people lovingly.

Right.

I don't know if you had any other elements of the power of questions, but you have another

subheading, the importance of a life well lived.

Now, we already addressed that to an extent when you were talking about

when you were answering Andy Woodard on friendship evangelism.

Do you have anything to add to that?

Yeah, not too much.

I just say, you know, in our culture, I think if anybody has read the book by Rosario

Butterfield and things, just just having a life that's caring for

people with the goal of evangelism.

Again, not not falling into the the idea of friendship evangelism where you're

you think you're sharing the gospel by simply being a friend to somebody.

But having a life where people can observe what you're teaching them verbally through the

way you live.

So the way I use sports a lot in in

building relationships with people on the community.

So the way I conduct myself on the field, Lord willing, is going to match up with the message

that I've been redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

And I follow after the Savior, right to opening up your home, having hospitality back to

Rosario Butterfield.

She was reached by the gospel through hospitality, people showing her love and

inviting her into their home, allowing them to see how they interact with their children.

What a loving marriage looks like.

That's biblical.

What a loving father and mother look like that are that are biblical, practicing

biblical principles in their life.

And these things these things take time.

And but they make an impact on people as you're sharing the gospel with them and doing it, doing

it as a team.

Jesus sent his disciples out two by two.

And I think this is really important that you bring other people from your church or other churches

alongside of you and your evangelism.

So instead of having a barbecue with your church friends and then a barbecue with your lost friends,

right, have a barbecue with some church friends and lost friends and allow these

lost friends to meet and spend time with Christians who are showing love for each other and care for each other.

And of course, many times our church friends are our lost friends.

Sometimes we're going to go to our final break and it's going to be a lot briefer, a lot more

brief than the other breaks.

If you have a question you'd like to ask our guest today, Kevin Vignault, please send it in

fairly soon because we are rapidly running out of time.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away.

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We teach families to worship together as families.

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solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.

Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now.

And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the ReformRookie .com podcast and visit our website and the YouTube

page.

We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as

well as seasoned believers.

From Keech's Catechism and the Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform

Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking Biblical truth.

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Welcome back, Pastor Kevin Vigneault.

We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who has a

question for you.

He said, I have been surprised over the last few years to meet

Reformed pastors who believe that evangelism is not something that

should take place from the pulpit, but that the taught and discipled members

of the church are to go out of the four walls of the church and be the

evangelists.

What is your opinion on this?

It strikes me as being strange.

Obviously, it is the privilege and honor and duty of Christians to

leave the four walls of their church to evangelize.

But I believe that every good sermon should at least in part include an evangelistic message

to the lost, because typically there are lost people among us, even in our membership, whether

we like to acknowledge that or not.

Yeah, that's another great question.

I agree and I disagree with the statement, right?

So, pastor's job is to shepherd the flock on a Sunday morning, and the gathered church is

for the church, right?

For believers who have been baptized, made a public profession of faith, been baptized, and have

been added to the church family.

That being said, to your point, a good preaching and the preaching of God's word is

going to include the gospel and should be evangelistic in the sense of recognizing

that there may be or most likely are unbelievers in the audience.

And I'd say even whether there are unbelievers or aren't unbelievers in the audience, a

good message, a good sermon is going to include the gospel.

It's at the center of the scriptures, of course.

And so, yes, it is the pastor's responsibility.

It is the pastor's job to model evangelism, both in their personal lives, but also from

the pulpit for the church family.

But the main means that, of course, the church is going to be reaching people will most likely be

outside of the Sunday morning gathering, because that Sunday morning gathering is designed for believers.

Now, when you mentioned that whether there are lost people in a congregation or not, it's still

an important thing to have as a part of any solid sermon, the gospel,

which would imply evangelism.

And it just reminded me, I don't know if you knew who Peter Jeffrey was.

I don't think so.

He was a wonderful Reformed Baptist pastor from Port Talbot, Wales,

author, a personal friend of mine, and he wrote a book called Christians Need the Gospel Too.

So it was just a reminder of that.

Thank you, CJ.

Do you have anything to say about cultural awareness before we run out of time?

Yeah, I think we covered cultural awareness already.

I would love to just give some very practical just ideas to folks for evangelism, if that's all right,

in the closing moments.

Sure, go ahead.

Yeah.

So just something that our church family does and what we've been doing in the last few years to reach our

community is we use this app called Meetup.

And it's a social platform where you can make a profile

and give things that you are interested in.

So mine is soccer, bike riding, triathlon -type stuff,

and people make events on there in groups.

And so our church actually made a group here in Wisconsin

before it was popular, and we were the only group out in our county, basically, and we just named it Waukesha Area Sports Club.

And so our church populated this group full of believers,

and then we have weekly volleyball games, weekly soccer games, weekly basketball games, occasional flag

football games.

We're going to do a game night.

And what it does is we have over 300 members in this group on the Meetup app, and we'll

have a soccer game.

Like this Saturday, we have eight people signed up, and a few people are from the community, I believe, and a few people are from

church.

And what it does is it actually gives opportunity to build those relationships and, of course, share the gospel.

So I'll play soccer with a bunch of guys, ask them to go out for lunch afterwards.

I schedule it before lunchtime.

So we go and we grab tacos and we talk gospel.

And we've been able to see some fruit through this.

The church does events like men's steak nights.

We just had one about three weeks ago, and we had close to 200 men in

our church, about 115 of which were guests,

not part of our church.

And I'd say close to maybe 120 of them.

And we preach the gospel, and the ladies have different events to a similar

tune.

And our goal is that, yes, they hear the gospel preached from me up in the pulpit, but then what we see has really

taken root is as people go and have conversations with their friends after.

And it functions as a springboard for gospel conversations for people in our congregation to talk

with unbelievers.

So those are just some really simple, quick, practical ways that we've been trying to

get our people sharing the gospel faithfully with the community around us.

Well, now I'd like you to summarize in just a couple of minutes what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners

today.

Yeah, that's great.

I was thinking through that during the break, and it's an illustration that I've

used many times in messages on evangelism.

It's an oldie but a goodie.

When I lived in New York, I had some folks visit us, and my wife and I took them to Little

Italy.

And we went to one of the little restaurants in Little Italy, and I told this

individual that they should get and try the gnocchi.

And they didn't know how it was pronounced, but they ordered the gnocchi, as they called

it.

They knew how to pronounce your last name and didn't know how to pronounce gnocchi?

Right. I never said they knew how to pronounce my last name.

Oh, okay.

But they order the gnocchi, and they take a bite of it, and they're blown

away.

I told them, order the gnocchi with the pink sauce.

And they order it, and they just taste it, and you could see it in their eyes.

They loved it.

And in Little Italy, you're seated outside, and there's people around you.

And as the restaurant started to fill up, this individual was looking over at them as

they're looking at the menu.

And he's going, try the gnocchi.

Try the gnocchi.

However you say it, just order it.

And before you knew it, the whole entire restaurant was ordering the gnocchi.

And it just struck my heart of that is evangelism, right?

When we are wired in such a way, God has wired us that we want to talk about that which we love.

We want to talk about that which we experience.

And if there's one thing that the listeners come away with today, it's this

spend time with Jesus.

Spend time meditating on the gospel.

Spend time just dwelling on incredible gospel truths, God's love,

his mercy, his grace.

The fact that he demonstrated his love toward us and that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for

us.

And this will motivate evangelism.

It should be something that we love talking about because we love Jesus.

So if you don't feel any motivation to share the gospel, then get to know Jesus better.

Amen.

Well, you have motivated me to go to a local restaurant, 113 Social in

Carlisle, that serves an extraordinary gnocchi and shrimp with asparagus.

I might come join you.

And by the way, folks, if you don't know what gnocchi is, it's Italian potato dumplings.

And my mouth is already watering for it.

But once again, folks, if you want any more information about the

church where my guest is the pastor, Lakewood Baptist Church of

Pewalkie, Wisconsin, go to lakewoodbaptist .church, lakewoodbaptist

.church.

And I want to remind our listeners, please, if you have funds,

financial resources above and beyond your ability to provide for your church and family, please seriously

consider Iron Sharpens Iron Radio to

receive a gift from you because we are in urgent need of your financial help.

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, ironsharpensironradio .com and click support.

I want to thank, once again, Kevin Vignell for doing such an extraordinary job as my guest today.

I want to thank all of our listeners, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you

are a sinner.