April 8, 2004

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program, and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and now with today's topic here is James white.

Opening Conversation and Cruise Announcement

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on half an hour earlier today because well because we have to drive all the way across The valley and this is a large valley. It takes a little while to get there.

Sounds a little bit distorted for some odd reason. It's not that the volumes right, but it sounds odd sounds distorted. I'm not sure why anyway. We're still playing around. That sounds better. It's still playing around with the Soundboard after we get it back from Salt Lake City.

It just. I sometimes think some gnomes come in in the middle of night and record something. Maybe Pete from Canada does that or something? But we have to get across the valley to the Easter pageant, and so we're getting started a little bit early tonight.

I'll give you a little more information concerning that particular subject. Once we get an opportunity first of talking to a special guest Who is going to be joining us and the conference and on the cruise this coming in November, which is I?

Used to think. Three four or five months was a long period of time. Now it it isn't. It really is not. And. With all the projects and everything that you you get busy with it's just around the corner.

And so we hopefully have on the phone line with us this afternoon. Steve camp. Hi Steve.

How are you doing James. Good afternoon? Thanks for having me on today? Hey?

You know I was just staring at your your picture on the website there, and I said you know. That's I. I like that that looks like you. The picture on the front of doing my best does not look like.

Well you know what you never know. It's those old days of being unequally yoked with all those labels that just distorted everything. And now that we have that taken afterwards the air is clear and The last cruise we had and you know I believe this next time all of my kids are going to be coming and It is just going to be a great.

You know. Starting I think at what 1030 at night and going till sometimes all the way through the night. Most of us about one or one thirty more. It was such a rich time and You know but just an incredible time and saw is this November and James Thank you for letting me tag along again.

It's just a thrill to be part of that with you. Sure. Well We did have a great time.

Last time around and for folks who really enjoy our opening and closing music you get specialized versions of that that it's only hearable on the cruise, so if you If you want to hear what to run to the battle sounds like when it is personalized You did the only way to hear it is is going on the cruise.

That's the only way it happens, right? And you're also gonna get a chance to do some some teaching and some speaking as well and. So I'm just hoping that that you avoid any of the virae that I ran into last time.

And so you're not stuck in your cabin most of the cruise like I was last time.

Yeah, that was an amazing thing that happened to you. We're glad that it's kind of subsided by the end of it all.

Yeah, by the end of the week once I gave in and went and Saw the doctor downstairs. We got past it, but anyway. We're looking forward. They call that run to the doctor. Yeah run to the doctor. Have you ever heard that.

You've heard your songs used as an opening to something before haven't you. Yes in fact?

I am I am absolutely honored that you choose to use run of the battle and Yeah, we got that is a tremendous privilege. Well. We appreciate you getting.

Letting us do that now that the Conference as well. You know it's interesting you recently wrote an article on a Controversial subject and while we were talking about it you you made the comment. Well now I know what it's like to be James White for a day and.

And. The topic of this conference is obviously very controversial as well, and you know sometimes I'll be absolutely honest with you I I I think about Topics like this one, and I go okay. I know why this is so important I know how valuable it is to to get Christians thinking about these things to not just simply ignore them to see the Foundational issues, but man.

I'll tell you Taken taken the heat that you take for even daring to address these things. Sometimes I just wonder why on earth I do this. I mean it'd be so easy. I mean there's so many topics we could do to be so friendly and warm and fuzzy.

Exactly who what whose ideas was wasn't this little Fallon? Are you good should you and I sort of pick on him or something?

Well, I tell you James What's what's fascinating these days in yesteryear and when I started in CCM music back in? 77 with my beginning my 20s, you know it was never if people as to will to them. Having a wonderful opportunity to share Christ in all kinds of environments.

I mean I remember oh. Several either gay lesbian task force at the University of Oregon and outreach for people that have AIDS. And that was an unprecedented time in fact I tried to get campus crusade for the longest time to sponsor an event out there.

And they wouldn't in these people came and it's even though we disagree with you. Would you come and address this and so I had a several thousand? People at outdoor events sponsored by the gay lesbian task force.

So I think that under radio brought you know. It seems like the battle these days was so much of what we wrestle with is not from outside the church. But from within the church mm-hmm, and it's usually on matters that we would have thought magnetica or you know.

So experiential or else we want to replace it. Well. I said boy. It's just what it feels like to be James White for a day. I have Respect in fact for listening To you know I almost non-stop in the background because give an answer well.

We really appreciate the work that you're doing Steve and those kind words. We hope those mp3s are helpful to folks of course. There's gonna be some folks. We're gonna be seeing in just a matter of hours out in Mesa's the holding signs and Who have promised to show up at our church on Sunday to protest us too, so you know it doesn't always make friends When you address the issues.

And Michael Fallon just reminded me in our chat channel that some and I'm looking at the website right now. And I just noticed this. I mean I guess Mike just made some changes to it or something I'm looking at it.

Do you know what's on the website about you when it says Steve camp will? Actually the word B is missing Mike. I Will put that back in there. We'll be leaving 6 a .m. Bible devotions did you know that?

You know what I think. He's got that confused with someone else. I believe I'll be Ministering to the waves of the ocean at 6 a .m.. I'll be sleeping at Bedside Baptist. I'm happy to do whatever you tell me to do.

I'm a man under authority. There you go.

But that's what it says, and I'm like excuse me, but but I thought we were going to be on a cruise here. And it's 6 a .m.. On a cruise ship the only thing moving is the water and about two of the staff.

That's so you see what with five kids. I'm usually up between 5 30 and 6 to get them ready for school. This week schools out. That's right. That's right. That goes for dad too. Well. This is going to be great now the theme of this cruise.

James is that correct? That's true. And this is this is so good because especially in the art I can't see a vast majority, but a fear that I consider dear friends. Probably would not be able to in any way shape or fight by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.

And that is a shock really a few other artists and as I make my way as the name of a new band. Rather than a worker as we're really praying. I hope that those guys work for us.

Justification by Grace Through Faith and the Need for Bold Proclamation

So I'm really I'm really looking forward to it. You know I I know where some of my discussion is going to be and and that is that there's so many What one of the biggest problems that I see in regards to doctor justification today is oh?

I just refreshed the page and you've been released from your 6 a .m.. Purgatory. I just wanted you know Purgatory Quite seriously, I honestly think that one of the the reasons that this doctrine is so misunderstood and so It doesn't Use the words of John Murray.

It doesn't ring the bells of the heart for so many today. And he was talking about his day, and that was a while back. But the reason it doesn't I think is because of the fact that Within our within the Academy there has become such a a broad Degradation in the view of the scriptures that there are so few Teaching any longer that actually believe that you can know What the scriptures say that you can actually have a foundation for proclamation of truth that is actually?

True and Therefore there is a reticence a hesitation to announce to proclaim this truth With boldness and as a result the people coming out of so many schools so many seminaries are so very Lackadaisical about the doctrine because well you know there's this view over here.

There's that view over there It's sort of like the United Nations you know it never gets anything done because there's all these different views and and the result is the people in the pew get the They they get the message they get the They understand that if that person up there Shows no passion for this and that you know why should I and the results the results absolutely devastating to the To the proclamation of the church, and then you see the results being that there's so many people today are going.

You know you know these distinctives that we've been arguing about for a long long time. Why are we bothering with these things what they really mean, and they don't have any foundation for answering the question.

They don't know.

Yeah, that's exactly correct. Well, you know we see this even faith that goes on today. People will support those that represent What I like to call the gospel according to George, Washington. And they forget that the crossways higher than the flag.

That causes if religious rights, that's all sad, but that's what many people are looking to. Right yeah, and I think it's become a very popular thing today. Even Chris Matthews is probably the sharpest model, but yet it yet voted for Bush this last time around it.

He is an oxymoron there.

Yeah, and and Dennis Miller and the like it's just a badge of mix. What's going on. And at the same time I? You know I see that even they're interesting mix Logans these days in entering into the discussion not very well trained theologians.

I'm not very well at all. No in the whole point is is that We as Christians have an opportunity to speak clearly, but again I'm that here what's happened. Well-meaning pastors that have traded in faithfully that that only should come through the clear.

Teaching and preaching of God's Word. An example to make this clear. Some of these men. You know would rather have us pick ticket people if you know during the you know people weren't picketing taverns and So forth you know they were into the taverns and rather than picket them or boycott them I'd rather walk into the tavern with a group of friends befriend those that are in there.

Engage them in dialogue and and then see them response. I think that that is a much better way. They see people today picketing abortion clinics, and again. I'm not for that at all. I'm completely poor pro-life.

Why not go to those same abortion clinics stand outside make our voice known, but yet at the same time be able to To have an opportunity to share the gospel with them. And I think that this is the thing that is so missing and so much of evangelicalism today.

We get excited about the cause. We get excited about a constitutional amendment. But again the I mean the defining of marital.

You know we did a debate on that particular subject just last weekend well, okay? We did have a debate on that uh-huh this past weekend I I'm the only one who ended up really discussing the subject of marriage, but anyway well Steve this is the kind of discussion that goes on and give and take and everything else out there on the The deck of the of the ship and you hear the roar of the sea and the moon above the waters and all that neat wonderful fun stuff and so People you know folks.

This is what it's all about so Steve camps going to be with us And if you want to be a part of it, you can there's audience one org our website the information is linked in both places and other places as well and So we we hope folks will be taking an opportunity to look at that and start making some plans right now.

It's really difficult to do this type of thing on the fly at the last second so we are encouraging folks to be planning ahead and to get in touch with Michael Fallon and Sovereign cruises and get it all taken care of and thank you very much.

I know that you're on the wrong time zone and So.

That's okay. I the whole interview has been conducted while I have been in blockbuster with my children. Well there you go. So we I think last time I was on I was in in the airport. Claim. Uh-huh, I area at an airport, so we're moving up.

Thank you dear brother. We appreciate is a must read of occasion that has been written in the last 40 years. Probably second in the last few hundred years. Only to Christ and to the cause of Christ.

All right, we're looking forward to it brother and Have fun there at at blockbuster. Whatever you end up with okay? All right, thanks a lot. Bye. Bye. Okay. All right there. It's Steve camp joining with.

Yes, he can multitask. Okay. He is not a DOS unit that is for certain. Unlike some of us who who can only do basically one thing at a time. I remember the last time we we did have him on the air, and it was when we were doing the Keith green program, and he's sitting here telling us stories about Keith green we're playing music and all stuff, and he's pulling his luggage off of the carousel in Nashville at the at the Airport.

Is this it just that I couldn't do that I Would drop the phone. I would do something. I'd just just wait is eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one. I've just noticing. I started to laugh a little bit and Twinge a pain going had a little oral surgery today.

So we're talking a little bit more slowly than normal if I sound a little bit odd that's probably why the stuff is worn off, but you know when they Drill and chop and cut and do stuff like that still Something in there going.

I know you did something to me. So we're just trying to get past that and get out to Mesa to the Easter pageant taking your phone calls at 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number. 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number if you'd like to comment on any of the past topics we've had or Also, what's currently on the website to the blog we've we've done a little bit of a.

Since we got back from Salt Lake City have been primarily discussing some LDS issues their Previous blog discussions such as what was called the blog Wars have seemingly come to an end. At first we thought we had lost the blog Wars at least that's what had been proclaimed and and now the other side No, that's that's an interesting Whole story right there.

But I did want to give you a report on what is going on out at the Easter pageant to those of you who are Maybe new to the program may not be aware of the fact that each year the first Night that I visited the LDS Easter pageant was in 1983.

So it's been a while now in fact we have folks out passing out tracts with us who were not even alive at that particular point in time and We have been going out there. It is the major Proselytization effort of the LDS Church in the Valley of the Sun anyways, and it is one of the largest pageants I think it's the second or third largest pageant put on by the Mormon Church in the United States.

I think only the Paul Myra pageant is larger from what I've been told anyway and so there's at least a hundred thousand people they normally say more than that that attend over the course of The showing it is a passion play in essence and We have been out there.

We Honestly did not know whether we were going to be able to do Our work this year or not and the reason being that the King James only fundamentalist Baptist street preachers from Salt Lake City had planned had made it very clear.

They were going to be here now they had said that last year as well, but there was a period of time between the conference and the pageant and These individuals do not live here in the Valley of the Sun.

Thankfully and So they did not show up. And so we were able to do our work last year, but so we saw them this past Saturday in the Salt Lake and as you know, I played some clips from some things just in the last dividing line.

Some examples of their quote-unquote preaching. I of course do not believe that simply yelling and screaming of people is preaching. I don't think that just because you use biblical language. That means it's preaching.

Preaching involves communicating the gospel to someone so they can understand it and Obviously what is being done by the particular group that we have in mind here is not actually preaching. In fact last night one of the Worst offenders from Salt Lake City one of the two worst offenders up there was standing over across the street.

At least they stayed off of the sidewalks that were right outside the confer the Where the pageant is taking place and I knew this was going to happen when the huge crowds you see we start tracking between 6 and 6 30 or so and What happens is?

During that period of time during During the first two hours it starts 8 o 'clock. So between 6 and 8 everybody comes in and You get some big crowds, but it's more of a steady type thing. But then when it's over at about 5 or 10 minutes after 9 everybody who came in Over the course of a number of hours leaves within a matter of minutes.

And so you get big huge crowds the the police have to be there to you know shut down the road and do all the rest of stuff and So what took place? What is we knew that they would wait until these big groups have to wait for the lights.

They have to you know you've got a captive audience and that they would start their preaching and so there's one particular guy. He's got this homemade. Almost sort of looks like the like a cut-up. I don't know.

Milk carton or something it's meant to be a non amplified megaphone in essence. And he starts yelling his preaching across the street. Well, I was right in the middle of the group and so I'm Straining.

I'm really making a hard effort. To try to figure out what he's saying now obviously the Mormons staying there aren't gonna be putting out nearly as much effort as I was. I couldn't figure it out. I as Hard as I tried I could not understand what he was saying.

There was simply too much noise. He was too far away, and so he was accomplishing nothing they're staying there with signs. At one point he did whip out the Mormon temple garments and almost sort of I don't I don't know what he was doing.

Somebody had walked by him and said something and he whipped them out. And I guess I was supposed to prove something this person. I don't know. But they were fairly restrained last night. They weren't they weren't crazy at all and there are some that are there that are not with that group.

That do not do the yelling and the screaming and in fact at one point when when the worst of them showed up I've got out of video camera and as I'm videotaping the one and he's staying there talking about how he was gonna be coming to my church on Sunday and That's Peter Ruckman has said that I'm not called to preach as if I could really care what a man who is a racist and been divorced many times thinks about preaching, but they're Ruckman nights, and so you know they're Ruckman's their cult leader and.

So he's staying there doing that and then I pan across and a Different group of street preachers is there and you can see this gentleman. And he's talking with a Mormon girl, and it's quiet. It's it's focused on biblical issues.

He's sharing with the person just the contrast between the two. Was extremely strong and I think beneficial as well. So I'm sort of hoping that maybe since there are a couple out there that are not so wild and radical as as these ones from Salt Lake are that maybe they'll sort of Help control them something like that.

I don't know we'll see what happens. But we'll be at back out there the problem is and we're getting ready to take our break, but the problem is. The early days the week are fairly easy. They're fairly quiet last night was windy and rainy and and so there's a lot of folks that weren't weren't you know just didn't come.

You get to Friday and Saturday if it looks like the weather's gonna hold. That's when all the young guys show up, and they're the folks who've seen this a million times before. They're bored and they caused us problems for years.

They're gonna be all over these people, and that's when if there's gonna be a difficulties this year. That's when it's gonna take place. It's gonna be Friday night or Saturday night out at out at the gen.

Why do I keep saying general conference well? I don't know out at the Easter pageant, so that's that's what we're looking at right now eight seven seven seven five three thirty three. Forty one is the phone number.

We're gonna be taking our break and hopefully nobody online right now. That's because no one knows that we're supposed to be on right now. Probably that's my fault. I should have announced it earlier, but I just didn't have access to a computer this morning, so eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one.

We'll be right back.

Book Recommendations, Church Announcements, and Sponsor Reads

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Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

The same-sex controversy Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen org.

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In his book Mary another Redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic. He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of God Has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed Queen of Heaven.

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You can order your copy of James White's book. Mary another Redeemer at a omen org.

This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45. Evening services are at 6 30 p .m.

On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26 grace. If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org.

Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day. It's a journey.

John 1:12-13, Regeneration, and the Order of Salvation

And welcome back to the dividing line, there's Steve camp seeing away for us. However, he's not doing so in the middle of blockbuster that Recording there. Would be interesting to ask him to sort of just fire that up on the cell phone.

That's not a good thing to do. That's that's that's like that. That's that's not good. Eight seven seven seven five three thirty three. Forty-one is the phone number and we have a couple callers but room for you as well at eight seven seven seven five three.

Three three four one. We need to wrap things up. All right, it's a 430 today so that so we can head out to Mesa and get some things done. So let's talk with Mark in Atlanta. Hi mark. Hey, dr. White. How you how you doing mark you sound a little bit on the on the downside a little quiet.

Can you hear me? Okay. Yeah, but you can you hear me? Okay. Actually, you're a little bit faint. Yes. Well, I'm just sounding like you. Actually, it's easier for me to talk like this because I don't have to move my jaw as quickly and it sort of hurts a little bit.

So we're gonna we're gonna have a nice quiet conversation about theology, so what's up mark? Well glad I could help you there. Well, thank you. I appreciate that's better that ironside guy in the channel.

He's mean, isn't he? Yeah, definitely. He's very very he's not he's just anyway good to hear Steve Kim's voice again.

I'll tell you I was just driving home and I was listening to Hank a little bit and he said a few things. Oh, really? Like he always does and it's just maybe think of a discussion. I've been having on John 1 12 and 13.

Okay and It may not be the best passage as far as You know. Modern I guess looking at modernism of regeneration preceding faith.

Well, it's certainly a strong monergistic passage that there's no question about that. It is amazing What people will do with it because they will attempt to read it in a temporal fashion as if the you start in verse 12, and then you just instead of ignoring the The concept of what regeneration is or what adoption is totally ignoring the order salutis.

You just try to shove it through in a in a strict sense and end up saying that the the Statement of verse 13 who were born not of blood nor the will of flesh nor the will of man But of God that that becomes subjugated to an alleged free will element of verse 12.

And yet the the being born in John obviously is is An action that comes from God that first John 5 1 we've discussed many times before makes that very clear and you know just Approaching it that direction is just isogetical, but it's very very common.

And it's it's found and well a number of the people I've actually debated in writing on that particular subject in fact.

Yeah, I guess I guess. That's what they see it as a. They think that it's a cause-and-effect relationship between as many as received him. And he gets to them. He gave the power to become sons of God.

Then then.

Once having that power they're born of God. Yeah, the problem of course. Is that it then specifically says who were born. Now that would mean that the become children of God. Would be I'd being identified not as adoption the family of God, but as regeneration itself there.

Which is a questionable issue to begin with especially with the term exousia being used. Ecstasy has never been never used in that way by John, but even then the the question becomes okay who were born after.

So these these are children of God, but they're born after they become children of God. I mean it just it the the logical Element just completely disappears, but then everything about not of blood nor of the will of the flesh.

I mean here's thalema toss here is Human will and if they're gonna try to say well, you know here is here is the very term itself and Therefore we have free will that word will is produced by not. You know it's sort of like when when people turn John 644 Romans 916 the statements of free will.

I mean if you can make those Passages free will you can make anything in the free will? You can you can turn one of my favorite passages from 2nd Chronicles 2 at par bar 4 by the causeway into a par bar into a proof text for free will.

I mean that's you can do. That if you really want to oh sure.

Okay, I mean if that's a little clearer. I guess it's been probably over thought well.

Any type of Isagetical insertion into a text is going to is going to cause it a problem, but the the issue is is A person attempted to say well, okay, so the right to become children of God exousia to become techno say you is to be taken as the equivalent of Being born of God.

Is that what they are they're attempted to say and you'll notice that being born of God is the very last. This doesn't come across real well in English translations when you see I'm looking at the new Mary Sarah now when you say who were born.

Not of blood nor the will of flesh or the will of man, but of God. The actual Greek. The the verb to be born is the last word in a sentence in English translations. It almost ends up first. And so it's it's actually much farther separated from techno say you in the Greek that it is in English and so people attempt to make the connection there and They don't follow John's usage, and they don't just listen to what the text is saying.

This being born of God is a Divine action and it's not based upon human things and the reason that they received him. Whereas others did not the reason that they become children of God whereas others do not.

The reason they believe in his name whereas others do not is because they were born of God. And that's the same point made in first John 5 1. Is that did the caller today bring up that passage or that just come up?

As part of the response to a question or something actually I've been discussing that with a friend of mine who Would be I would call a closet Calvinist. It's Calvinist. I believe in Romans. 9 individual election and You know teaches that and a few other issues.

He doesn't believe in a free will the way an Armenian would. Mm-hmm. So so what's he afraid of? Is he end up being ugly like me or something? I think he thinks he has to shave his head, but oh well.

You know that's a I wanted to spell that myth immediately. Becoming a Calvinist does not cause your hair to fall out. I've seen many Calvinists who at a great advanced age Continued to have plenty of hair follicles, so let's not.

That's that's good to hear because I need to keep mine a little bit a few more years.

Oh, yeah, you know we know that you do because we understand that. You know you're still searching for that that life mate situation. We're all praying for you. Just want you to know that yeah.

I appreciate that. I think I think I found her. I just have to go that next step.

And I as I understand it pretty much everybody on the cruise is encouraging you to do so. So that's right.

We'll keep working at it. Okay. Thanks for calling man. All right, dr. White real quick. Yes, I just mentioned that uh. You know what I what Hank had said was it just like the past things. As far as you know we our children.

We know we're gonna. We're going to bring children in the world knowing there's evil and You know that's just the choices we make and then love can't be love without a Abolitional act of the will. Yeah, that's the same old argument as if.

We don't believe that we make a volitional act. The will just a matter of freeing that will to be able to do so. You know I seem to remember having said that in a in a context. Well anyway. Yeah, thanks for calling man.

Covenant Theology, Progressive Dispensationalism, and the Church as Israel

Let's talk with Nathan in Oklahoma. Hi, Nathan. Question about.

Redemption. Mm-hmm. And if it includes Reconciliation and what I mean by that is the gospel is based on Christ's death or the sins of God's elect that he paid the price for those sins in full and That his resurrection that he rose for our justification from understanding Romans 425 right.