April 8, 2004

Alpha & Omega Ministries iconAlpha & Omega Ministries

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Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence our host is dr James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the
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Phoenix reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.
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White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the United States It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and now with today's topic.
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Here is James white And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line on half an hour earlier today because well because we have to drive all the way across The valley and this is a large valley
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It takes a little while to get there. It sounds a little bit distorted for some odd reason It's not that the volumes right, but it sounds odd sounds distorted.
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I'm not sure why anyway, we're still playing around. That sounds better it's still playing around with the Soundboard after we get it back from Salt Lake City It just I sometimes think some gnomes come in in the middle of night and record something
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Maybe Pete from Canada does that or something? I don't know, but we have to get across the valley to the
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Easter pageant And so we're getting started a little bit early tonight. I'll give you a little more information concerning that particular subject
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Once we get an opportunity first of talking to a special guest
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Who is going to be joining us and the conference and on the cruise this coming in November, which is
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I used to think Three four or five months was a long period of time now it it isn't it really is not and With all the projects and everything that you you get busy with It's just around the corner and so we hopefully have on the phone line with us this afternoon
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Steve camp. Hi Steve. How are you doing? Hey, you know,
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I was just staring at your your picture on the website there and I said, you know
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That's I I like that that looks like you the picture on the front of doing my best does not look like Well, you know what you never know
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It's those old days of being unequally yoked with all those labels that just distorted everything
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Now that we had that taken afterwards the air is clear and This is going to be great for for those listening who weren't on the last cruise we had an amazing time together and And you know,
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I believe this next time all of my kids are going to be coming and It is just going to be a great time those late -night deck discussions
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You know Starting I think at what 1030 at night and going till sometimes all the way through the night
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But most of us about one or one thirty more. It was such a rich time of fellowship beautiful country and territory amazing food way too much food and And you know, but just an incredible time and so we hope that you're all going to join us this
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November and James Thank you for letting me tag along again. It's just a thrill to be part of that with you this year
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Well, we did have a great time Last time around and for folks who really enjoy our opening and closing music you get specialized versions of that That it's only hearable on the cruise.
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So if you If you want to hear what to run to the battle sounds like when it is personalized
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You did the only way to hear it is is going on the cruise. That's the only way it happens, right? and you're also you get a chance to do some some teaching and some speaking as well and So I'm just hoping that that you avoid any of the vi -ride that I ran into last time
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And so you're not stuck in your cabin most of the cruise like I was last time Yeah, that was an amazing thing that happened to you.
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We're glad that it's kind of subsided by the end of it Yeah by the end of the week once I gave in and went and Saw the doctor downstairs
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We got past it. But anyway, we're looking forward. They call that run to the doctor. Yeah run to the doctor
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Have you ever heard you've heard your songs used as an opening to something before haven't you? Yes In fact,
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I am I am absolutely honored that you choose to use run of the battle and how do I witness birds or and others?
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Through your broadcast and yeah, we got that is a tremendous Privilege.
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Well, we appreciate you getting letting us do that now that the Conference as well, you know, it's interesting you recently wrote an article on a
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Controversial subject and while we were talking about it you you made the comment well now
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I know what it's like to be James White for a day and And The topic of this conference is obviously very controversial as well.
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And you know, sometimes I'll be absolutely honest with you. I I I think about Topics like this one and I go.
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Okay. I know why this is so important I know how valuable it is to to get
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Christians thinking about these things to not just simply ignore them to see the foundational issues But man,
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I'll tell you Taken taken the heat that you take for even daring to address these things
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Sometimes I just wonder why on earth I do this. I mean, it'd be so easy I mean, there's so many topics we could do to be so friendly and warm and fuzzy
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Exactly. Who what whose ideas was wasn't this little Fallon? Are you good? Should you and I sort of pick on him or something?
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Well, I tell you James what's what's fascinating these days in Yesteryear and when
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I started in CCM music back in 77 with my beginning my 26th year
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The battle was always out there, you know, it was never Arguing with unsafe people as to the state of the culture.
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It was going to the culture Taking the gospel to them having a wonderful opportunity to share
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Christ in all kinds of environments I mean, I remember Coming up here on Earth Day Back.
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Oh several years ago. I was invited by the gay lesbian task force at the
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University of Oregon To do a Christian outreach concert because of the work
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I had done in outreach for people that have AIDS And that was an unprecedented time in fact
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I tried to get campus crusade for the longest time to sponsor an event out there and they wouldn't in these people came and said
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Would you talk to this audience about AIDS even though we disagree with your view of homosexuality and other things
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Would you come and address this and so I had several -thousand people at outdoor events sponsored by the gay lesbian task force here and what a wonderful opportunity to come into that environment and to Unashamedly proclaim the gospel and to have the dialogue that ensued with that the problem today changes
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I think that and I'm on a forum of about 400 radio broadcasters around the country and we've been
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Heated up these last few weeks out of various numbers of topics But you know It seems like the battle these days was so much of what we wrestle with is not from outside the church
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But from within the church And it's usually on matters that we would have thought these would have been matters of orthodoxy
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We say solo script Torah we say by the word alone, but actually it might be solo pragmatica or you know solo experientia or solo mystica or whatever else we want to replace it with and it's very sad that a lot of the issues today by mainline evangelicals of being wooed to Potentially a different gospel, but most importantly to a form of sanctification that isn't biblical and so When I called you last week or two weeks ago
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I said boy, it's just what it feels like to be James White for a day I have Respect in fact for listening.
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I've gotten on your website several times these last two weeks have downloaded numerous mp3s of Your debates and a lot of the articles and different things and folks.
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It's an invaluable resource To you know, I when I'm working on my own website at audience one org
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You know, I I'll be researching articles and so forth and I have a plane You know almost non -stop in the background because it just floods my heart with the truth of God's Word And it's so necessary today so that we are equipped to give an answer
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For the hope that's in us. So well, we really appreciate The work that you're doing
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Steve and those kind words that we hope those mp3s are helpful to folks There's gonna be some folks we're gonna be seeing in just a matter of hours out in Mesa holding signs and Who have promised to show up at our church on Sunday to protest us, too
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So, you know, it doesn't always make friends when you address the issues And Michael Fallon just reminded me in our chat channel that some and I'm looking at the website right now
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And I just noticed this. I mean, I guess Mike just made some changes to it or something
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I'm looking at it. Do you know what's on the website about you when it says
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Steve camp will? Actually, the word B is missing Mike. I Will put that back in there.
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We'll be leaving 6 a .m Bible devotions, did you know that?
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You know what? I think he's got that confused with someone else. I believe I'll be Ministering to the waves of the ocean at 6 a .m.
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I'll be sleeping at Bedside Baptist I'm happy to do whatever you tell me to do.
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I'm a man under authority. There you go But that's what but that's what it says and I'm like, excuse me But but I thought we were gonna be on a cruise here and it's 6 a .m
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On a on a cruise ship. The only thing moving is the water and about two of the staff.
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That's With five kids. I'm usually up between 5 30 and 6 to get them ready for school this week schools out.
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That's right That's right That goes for dad too. Well, this is going to be great now the theme of this cruise
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James is is on justification Is that correct? That's true And this is this is so good because especially in the arts, especially in music that is such a powerful tool to communicate the gospel yeah,
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I would venture to say that I can't say a vast majority, but a fair number of Very prominent
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Christian artists out there that I consider dear friends Probably would not be able to in any way shape or form unpack
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The basic doctrine of what it means to be justified by grace through faith in Christ Jesus Mm -hmm, and that is a shocking thing.
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I was at Starbucks here this morning. I Early on and had a chance to talk to a few other artists and as I make my way around Nashville You just have those opportunities
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It's funny, you know in music some guys think that propitiation is the name of a new band You know rather than Rather than a work of our
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Lord on the cross. So, you know as we're really praying with audience one being graciously allowed the opportunity with you to Participate in this cruise.
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We're hoping that that we're going to maybe hopefully attract a few other artists to come and some folks that that on our site that As you have dedicated folks that support you with the ministry of apologetics that we hope that those that that are
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Concerned about music worship within the church The worship wars is Michael Fallon loves to refer to them as and it's a common phrase today
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They go on to local churches. We hope that this element as well through audience one will be able to see some folks come and to really receive instruction and care and and So forth in the word as you unfold the truth of God's Word for us.
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So I'm really looking forward to it You know, I I know where some of my discussion is going to be and and that is that there's so many
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What one of the biggest problems that I see in regards to dr. Justification today is oh, I just refreshed the page
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And you've been released from your 6 a .m. Purgatory. I just want you to know To get me released from that Quite seriously,
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I honestly think that one of the reasons that this doctrine is so misunderstood and so It doesn't
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To use the words of John Murray It doesn't ring the bells of the heart for so many today and he was talking about his day and that was a while back but the reason it doesn't
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I think is because of the fact that Within our within the Academy there has become such a a broad
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Degradation in the view of the scriptures that there are so few Teaching any longer that actually believe that you can know
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What the scriptures say that you can actually have a foundation for proclamation of truth that is actually true and therefore there is a reticence a hesitation to Announce to proclaim this truth
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With boldness and as a result the people coming out of so many schools so many seminaries are so very
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Lackadaisical about the doctrine because well, you know, there's this view over here. There's that view over there
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It's sort of like the United Nations, you know it never gets anything done because there's all these different views and and the result is the people in the pew get the
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They they get the message they get the They understand that if that person up there Shows no passion for this and that you know, why should
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I and the results the results absolutely devastating to the To the proclamation of the church and then you see the results being that there's so many people today are going, you know
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You know these distinctives that we've been arguing about for a long long time. Why are we bothering with these things?
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What do they really mean and they don't have any foundation for answering the question. They don't know Yeah, that's exactly correct, well, you know, we see this in wholesale rates,
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I mean there's movements today we just posted an article on our website on the whole idea of the the the politicalization of Even faith that goes on today people will support those that represent what
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I like to call the gospel according to George, Washington And they forget that the cross weighs higher than the flag
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Mm -hmm that here they they will sign up for a political cause as if religious rights and Spiritual renewal revival or reformation could come to the legislative process.
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Oh sad, but that's what many people are looking to Right. Oh, yeah, and I think it's become a very popular thing today
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Listen, I I love I love listening to to Limbaugh and to Sean Hannity and to you know to I To the various talk show conservative hosts that are out there
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Even Chris Matthews is probably the sharpest knife in the drawer and he's a conservative liberal
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But yet it yet voted for Bush this last time around if he is an oxymoron there yeah, and and Dennis Miller and the like it's just a very interesting
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Hodgepodge of mix what's going on and at the same time? You know,
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I see that even they're troubled It's an interesting mix
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James, isn't it? I mean faith is no longer on the sidelines since 9 -11 Talk show hosts at large and politicians even are sounding more like theologians these days in entering into the discussion
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Not very well -trained theologians And the whole point is is that We as Christians have an opportunity to speak clearly, but again,
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I'm firmly I'm Thoroughly convinced that that here what's happened is is that we have well -meaning pastors that have traded their pulpits for political pundency as a as opposed to being stalwarts that will proclaim faithfully the truth of the gospel and So what we have today in the political mix of things is a legislating
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Certain biblical moral issues that only should come through the clear teaching and preaching of God's Word an example to make this clear
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Some and I won't mention their names, but some of these men Today in the religious front some from reform camp some for more of the psychological camp in other places
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You know would rather have us pick ticket people Boycott drop petitions and so forth than to really share with them the gospel
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If you know during the great revivals of especially probably some of the great Welsh revivals and so forth
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You know people weren't picketing taverns and so forth You know they were what they were doing was going into the taverns and rather than picket him or boycott them
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I'd rather walk into the tavern with a group of friends befriend those that are in there Engage them in dialogue and discussion of what the real general gospel is and And then see them respond by God's providential grace to the call of Christ I think that that is a much better way
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They see people today picketing abortion clinics and again. I'm not for that at all.
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I'm completely poor pro -life but You know rather than operation arrest
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Which is what Randall Terry had why not go to those same abortion clinics? Stand outside make our voice known, but yet at the same time be able to To have an opportunity to share the gospel with them
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And I think that this is the thing that is so missing in so much of evangelicalism today
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We get excited about the cause we get excited about a constitutional amendment That will
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You know restore a proper view of marriage but again the role of Government is not to create
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By constitutional amendment the rule of faith I mean the defining of marriage and what that occupies is a biblical issue
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Not one that should be put up for a constitutional vote now We did a debate on that particular subject just last weekend well, okay?
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We did have a debate on that This past weekend. I I'm the only one who ended up really discussing the subject of marriage, but anyway well
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Steve this is the kind of discussion that goes on and give and take and everything else out there on the the deck of the of the ship and you hear the roar of the sea and the moon above the waters and all that neat wonderful fun stuff and so People you know folks.
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This is what it's all about so Steve camps going to be with us, and if you want to be a part of it
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You can there's audience one org our website the information is linked in both places and other places as well and So we we hope folks will be taking an opportunity to look at that and start making some plans right now
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It's really difficult to do this type of thing on the fly at the last second so we are encouraging folks to be planning ahead and to get in touch with Michael Fallon and Sovereign Cruises and get it all taken care of and and thank you very much.
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I know that you're on the wrong time zone and That's okay,
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I've been whole interview has been conducted while I have been in blockbuster with my children well there you go
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So we I think last time I was on I was in in the airport claim Uh -huh area at an airport, and so we're moving up slowly, but surely
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James and but thank you dear brother We appreciate you and they listen the God who justifies if people haven't gotten this and read this
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It is a must read is that it is the best And most exhaustive work on the issue of justification that has been written in the last 40 years
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Probably second in the last few hundred years only that James Buchanan's work Buchanan's work pardon me, and what a what a great
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Contribution to the body of Christ and to the cause of Christ That your brother are making continually, so we just appreciate you and thank the
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Lord for you It'll be an honor to be with you again on this cruise all right. We're looking forward to a brother and Have fun there at blockbuster.
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Whatever you end up with okay? All right, thanks a lot. Bye. Bye. Okay. All right there.
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It's Steve camp joining with He can multitask okay, he is not a
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DOS unit that is for certain Unlike some of us who who can only do basically one thing at a time
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I remember the last time we we did have him on the air, and it was when we were doing the Keith Green program, and he's sitting here telling the stories about Keith Green We're playing music and all stuff, and he's pulling his luggage off of the carousel in Nashville at the at the
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Airport is just it just that I couldn't do that I Would drop the phone
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I would do something. I'd just just wait is eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one
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Just noticing I started to laugh a little bit and Twinge a pain going had a little oral surgery today
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So we're talking a little bit more slowly than normal if I sound a little bit odd that's probably why the
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Stuff is worn off, but you know when they drill and chop and cut and do stuff like that.
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It's still Something in there going. I know you did something to me
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So we're just trying to get past that and get out to Mesa to the Easter pageant taking your phone calls at eight seven seven seven five three
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Thirty three forty one is the phone number eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one is the phone number if you'd like to comment on in the past topics we've had or Also, what's currently on the website to the blog we've since we got back from Salt Lake City have been primarily discussing some
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LDS issues their Previous blog discussions such as what was called the blog
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Wars have seemingly come to an end At first we thought we had lost the blog
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Wars at least that's what had been proclaimed and now the other side Don't know that's that's an interesting
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Whole story right there But I did want to give you a report on what is going on out at the
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Easter pageant to those of you who are Maybe new to the program may not be aware of the fact that each year the first Night that I visited the
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LDS Easter pageant was in 1983 So it's been a while now in fact we have folks out passing out tracks with us
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Who were not even alive at that particular point in time and We have been going out there it is the major Proselytization effort of the
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LDS Church in the Valley of the Sun anyways, and it is one of the largest pageants
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I think it's a second or third largest pageant put on by the Mormon Church in the United States I think only the
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Palmyra pageant is larger from what I have been told anyway and So there's at least a hundred thousand people they normally say more than that that attend over the course of the showing it is a passion play in essence and We have been out there.
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We Honestly did not know whether we were going to be able to do Our work this year or not and the reason being that the
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King James only fundamentalist Baptist street preachers from Salt Lake City had planned had made it very clear.
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They were going to be here now They had said that last year as well But there was a period of time between the conference and the pageant and these individuals do not live here in the
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Valley of the Sun thankfully and So they did not show up and so we were able to do our work last year, but so we saw them this past Saturday in the
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Salt Lake and as you know I played some clips from some things just in the last dividing line Some examples of their quote -unquote preaching.
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I of course do not believe that simply yelling and screaming of people is preaching I don't think that just because you use biblical language that means it's preaching preaching involves communicating the gospel to someone so they can understand it and Obviously what is being done by the particular group that we have in mind here is not actually preaching in fact last night one of the
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Worst offenders from Salt Lake City one of the two worst offenders up there was standing over across the street at least they stayed off of the sidewalks that were right outside the confer the
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Where the pageant is taking place and I knew this was going to happen when the huge crowds you see we start tracking between 6 and 6 30 or so and What happens is?
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during that period of time during During the first two hours it starts 8 o 'clock.
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So between 6 and 8 everybody comes in and You get some big crowds, but it's more of a steady type thing
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But then when it's over at about 5 or 10 minutes after 9 everybody who came in Over the course of a number of hours leaves within a matter of minutes and so you get big huge crowds the the police have to be there to you know shut down the road and do all the rest of stuff and So what took place?
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What is we knew that they would wait until these big groups have to wait for the lights
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They have to you know you've got a captive audience and that they would start their preaching and so there's one particular guy
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He's got this homemade Almost sort of looks like the like a cut up. I don't know milk carton or something it's
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Meant to be a non amplified megaphone in essence, and he starts yelling his preaching across the street
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Well, I was right in the middle of the group and so I'm Straining I'm really making a hard effort
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To try to figure out what he's saying now obviously the Mormons staying there aren't gonna be putting out nearly as much effort as I was
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I couldn't figure it out. I as hard as I tried. I could not understand what he was saying
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There was simply too much noise. He was too far away So he was accomplishing nothing. They're staying there with signs
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At one point he did whip out the Mormon temple garments and almost sort of I don't I don't know what he was doing
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Somebody had walked by him and said something and he whipped them out And I guess I was supposed to prove something this person.
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I don't know But they were fairly restrained last night They weren't they weren't crazy at all and there are some that are there that are not with that group
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That do not do the yelling and the screaming and in fact at one point when when the worst of them showed up I've got out a video camera and as I'm videotaping the one and he's staying there talking about how
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He was gonna be coming to my church on Sunday and that's Peter Ruckman has said that I'm not called to preach as if I could really care what a man who is a racist and been divorced many times thinks about preaching but they're
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Ruckmanites and so, you know, they're Ruckman's their cult leader and so he's staying there doing that and then
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I pan across and a different group of street preachers is there and you can see this gentleman and he's talking with a
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Mormon girl and It's quiet. It's it's focused on biblical issues
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He's sharing with the person just the contrast between the two was extremely strong And I think beneficial as well.
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So I'm sort of hoping that maybe since there are a couple out there that are not so wild and radical as As these ones from Salt Lake are that maybe they'll sort of Help control them something like that.
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I don't know. We'll we'll see what happens But we'll be out back out there. The problem is and we're getting ready to take our break.
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But the problem is The early days the week are fairly easy
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They're fairly quiet last night was windy and rainy and and so there's a lot of folks that weren't weren't, you know
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Just didn't come you get to Friday and Saturday if it looks like the weather's gonna hold That's when all the young guys show up and they're the folks who've seen this a million times before They're bored and they caused us problems for years
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They're gonna be all over these people and that's when if there's gonna be a difficulties this year. That's when it's gonna take place
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It's gonna be Friday night or Saturday night out at out at the gym. Why do I keep saying general conference?
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Well, I don't know out at the Easter pageant. So that's that's what we're looking at right now 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number.
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We're gonna be taking our break and hopefully nobody online right now That's because no one knows that we're supposed to be on right now
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Probably that's my fault. I should have announced it earlier, but I just didn't have access to a computer this morning So 877 -753 -3341 we'll be right back
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Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality
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Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in their book
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The same -sex controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the
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Bible's teaching on the subject Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including
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Genesis Leviticus and Romans Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner
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They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people the same -sex controversy defending and clarifying the
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Bible's message about Homosexuality get your copy in the bookstore at a omen org
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Millions of petitioners from around the world are employing Pope John Paul II to recognize the Virgin Mary as co -redeemer with Christ Elevating the topic of Roman Catholic views of Mary to national headlines and widespread discussion in his book
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Mary another Redeemer James White sidesteps hostile rhetoric and cites directly from Roman Catholic sources to explore this volatile topic
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He traces how Mary of the Bible esteemed mother of the Lord obedient servant and chosen vessel of God Has become the immaculately conceived bodily assumed
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Queen of Heaven Viewed as co -mediator with Christ and now recognized as co -redeemer by many in the
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Roman Catholic Church Mary another Redeemer is fresh insight into the woman The Bible calls a blessed among women and an invitation to single -minded devotion to God's truth
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You can order your copy of James White's book. Mary another Redeemer at a omen org
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This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church
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The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming
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Lord's Day The morning Bible study begins at 930 a .m. And the worship service is at 1045
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Evening services are at 630 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7
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The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix You can call for further information at 602 to 6 grace
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If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at PRBC .org
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Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day
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And welcome back to the dividing line. There is Steve Camp singing away for us However, he is not doing so in the middle of blockbuster that Recording there
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Would be interesting to ask him to sort of just fire that up on the cell phone. That's not a good thing to do That's that's like that's just not good eight seven seven seven five three thirty three
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Forty -one is the phone number and we have a couple callers but room for you as well at eight seven seven seven five three
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Three three four one. We need to wrap things up. All right, it's a 430 today so that so we can head out to Mesa and get some things done.
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So let's talk with Mark in Atlanta. Hi mark Hey, dr. White How you doing mark you sound a little bit on the on the downside a little quiet Can you hear me?
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Okay. Yeah, but you can you hear me? Okay Actually, you're a little bit faint. Yes.
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Well, I'm just sounding like you Actually, it's easier for me to talk like this because I don't have to move my jaw as quickly and it sort of hurts a little bit
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So we're gonna we're gonna have a nice quiet conversation about theology. So what's up?
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Well glad I could help your surgery recovery there. Well, thank you. I appreciate that's better that ironside guy in the channel
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He's mean, isn't he? Yeah, definitely. He's very very he's not he's just anyway good to hear
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Steve Kim's voice again Um, I'll tell you I was just driving home and I was listening to Hank a little bit and he said a few things
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Oh, really like he always does and it's just maybe think of a discussion I've been having on John 1 12 and 13
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Okay And It may not be the best passage as far as You know modern
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I guess looking at modernism and regeneration proceeding faith Well, it's certainly a strong monergistic passage that there's no question about that.
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It is amazing what people will do with it because they will attempt to read it in a temporal fashion as if the
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You start in verse 12 and then you just instead of ignoring the The concept of what regeneration is or what adoption is totally ignoring the order salutis
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You just try to shove it through in a in a strict sense and end up saying that the the
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Statement of verse 13 who were born not of blood nor the will of flesh or the will of man
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But of God that that becomes subjugated to an alleged free will element of verse 12
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And yet the the being born in John obviously is is
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An action that comes from God that first John 5 1 we've discussed many times before makes that very clear and you know just Approaching it that direction is just isogetical, but it's very very common, and it's it's found in well a number of the people
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I've actually debated in writing on that particular subject in fact yeah,
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I guess I guess that's what they see it as a They think that it's a cause -and -effect relationship between as many as received him
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And he gave to them he gave the power to become sons of God then then
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Once having that power they're born of God Yeah the problem of course Is that it then specifically says who were born
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Now that would mean that the become children of God Would be
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I'd being identified not as adoption the family of God, but as regeneration itself there Which is a questionable issue to begin with especially with the term exousia being used
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Ecstasy has never been never used in that way by John, but even then the the question becomes okay who were born after So these these are children of God, but they're born after they become children of God.
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I mean it just it the the logical Element just completely disappears, but then everything about not of blood nor of the will of the flesh.
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I mean here's thalamus here is Human will and if they're gonna try to say well, you know here is
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Here is the very term itself and therefore we have free will that word will is produced by not
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You know it's sort of like when when people turn John 644 Romans 9 16 the statements of free will
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I mean if you can make Those passages free will you can make anything into free will?
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You can you can turn one of my favorite passages from 2nd Chronicles To it par bar 4 by the causeway into a par bar into a proof text for free will
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I mean that's you can do That if you really want to oh sure Okay, I mean if that's that's a little clearer.
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I guess it's been probably over thought well any type of Isagetical insertion into a text is going to is going to cause it a problem, but the issue is is
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A person attempted to say well, okay, so the right to become children of God exousia to become techno say you is to be taken as the equivalent of Being born of God is that what they are they're attempted to say and you'll notice that being born of God is the very last
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This doesn't come across real well in English translations when you see I'm looking at the new
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Mary Sarah now when you say who were born Not of blood nor the will of flesh or the will of man, but of God The actual
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Greek The the verb to be born is the last word in a sentence in English translations.
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It almost ends up first And so it's it's actually much farther separated from techno say you in the
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Greek that it is in English and so people attempt to make the connection there and They don't follow
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John's usage, and they don't just listen to what the text is saying this Being born of God is a divine action
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And it's not based upon human things and the reason that they received him whereas others did not
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The reason that they become children of God whereas others do not the reason they believe in his name whereas others do not is because They were born of God, and that's the same point made in first John 5 1 is that did the caller today bring up that passage?
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Or that just come up as part of the response to a question or something actually I've been discussing that with a friend of mine
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Who would be I would call a closet Calvinist? Is it Calvinist? I believe in Romans 9 individual election and You know teaches that and a few other issues.
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He doesn't believe in a free will the way an Armenian would mm -hmm So so what's he afraid of?
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Is he end up being ugly like me or something? I think he thinks he has to shave his head But oh well, you know that's a
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I wanted to spell that myth immediately becoming a Calvinist does not cause your hair to fall out I've seen many
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Calvinists who at a great advanced age Continued to have plenty of hair follicles, so let's not
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That's good to hear because I need to keep mine a little bit a few more years. Yeah, you know we know that you do because We understand that You know you're still searching for that that life mate situation.
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We're all praying for you. Just want you know that yeah appreciate that I think I think I found her To go that next step and I as I understand it pretty much everybody on the cruise is encouraging you to do so So that's right.
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We'll keep working at it. Okay. Thanks for calling man. All right, dr. White real quick. Yes, I just mentioned that uh
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You know what I what Hank had said was it just like the past things as far as you know we our children we know we're gonna we're going to bring children into the world knowing there's evil and You know that's just the choices we make and then love can't be love without a bit of volitional
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Act of the will yeah, that's the same old argument as if We don't believe that we make a volitional act the will just a matter of freeing that will to be able to do so Exactly, you know
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I seem to remember having said that in a in a context well anyway. Yeah, thanks for calling man
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I think that was all right. God bless. Bye. Bye. Let's talk with Nathan in Oklahoma hi
42:29
Nathan. Oh, dr. White. How you doing? I had a question about redemption and if it includes
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Reconciliation and what I mean by that is I realized that the gospel is based on Christ death or the sins of God's elect that he paid the price for those sins in full and That his resurrection that he rose for our justification from understanding
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Romans 425, right? Mm -hmm, and so my question then is with his death and When he redeemed us this redemption include not only a payment for sin in full
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But also a reconciliation to God well the the payment of the sin in full will lead inevitably to reconciliation with God when
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That is applied in the life of the believer. I think one of the things we need to Recognize is because God has chosen to act in Christ and sum up all things in Christ Then one of the problems we have in discussing the ordo salutis the order of salvation is that we as temporally bound beings
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Have a difficult time understanding how it is that God can act in such a way that there is one central action in Redemption that is in the cross
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But then that that is applied by God well according to Romans chapter 3
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Preemptively in the sense of Abraham's faith in God and then well post emptively
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I guess in the sense that when Even though that we have been united with Christ in his death
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We did not exist at that time as we understand existence And hence though our union with Christ is real and vital in the eternal sense
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We only experience it in the temporal sense and so our salvation while absolutely certain
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Because of God's eternal decree we still experience it in time And that's why we see biblically in Ephesians for example are being described as children of wrath
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Even though the very same section says that God set his his love upon us in fact
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We have already been seated in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus and so those temporal aspects
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Are are what it cause a problem for a lot of people because we frequently attempt to connect the
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Historical situation of the cross the eternal decree of God and then the the application within our life
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And so that was you know those are where we get the the challenges shall we say?
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so then so then reconciliation is the the ultimate result then of redemption and It comes on the basis in of justification so I guess well that Justification and redemption the forgiveness of sins
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Becomes the basis whereby God can can Proclaim us to be just and once that peace is established then reconciliation
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Of the relationship is inevitable in the life of that individual yes there The the problem again is that sometimes we go okay?
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These are steps and steps from us we need to recognize that there are logical steps and not necessarily indicative of temporal steps
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Uh in the sense that well people immediately start asking questions Well could there be a long period of time between this step and that step and things like that?
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We're primarily talking about logical things here. Not just uh Saying that there's a temporal issue, but yes your your summary that you just gave me is correct
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Okay, well, thank you very much appreciate it. Okay. Thanks for calling sir. All right. God bless 877 -753 -3341
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I think you know when you start at 330 Uh, this would be 47, so I think we still have about 10 minutes left only one call so we probably have room
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Uh for one more to sneak in there And uh if we don't get others if it's possible to do
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We might wrap her up a little bit early because again Got to put the tracks in the car got to head out to do some witnessing so Uh, it's sort of up to you whether we go the full distance or not
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And that's whether you call it 777 -533 -341 and let's talk with daniel in Sacramento, uh on a subject that I Uh, we'll we'll find out where this goes.
47:24
Hello daniel Hi, james. How you doing doing good, right? Hey, um And as always
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I appreciate your ministry and um, I grew up in a dispensational background. I'm sure most of us have
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Uh Yeah, because uh, you know, it's interesting I was
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I don't know if you caught uh, I was listening to bible answer man yesterday because paul meyer has been on Uh for two days and I haven't
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I didn't even get a chance to see that. Uh program the abc program Uh, i've just been so busy.
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I just haven't had an opportunity seeing it And paul meyer is on responding to a lot of stuff In fact, I was coming to folks in the car that and the stuff that I was hearing them saying had been represented on the abc program man
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Anybody who's gone to any kind of seminary in the past 30 years has heard all this stuff over and over again
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I mean, that's what I had to deal with Constantly, but I enjoyed listening to paul meyer and Yesterday it was really funny because right as we got into the car and headed headed toward mesa uh, he was basically ripping on pre -tribulational uh premillennialism
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And I I love when I when people call in going Hi, uh, hank. I wonder what your position on on eschatology is and I just go just listen for a while It'll take you about 32 seconds to figure out.
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He's an amillennialist for crying out loud, you know Well, i'm not gonna say until I put my book out. He's an amillennialist.
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Come on. I mean, it's just it's just Especially with uh with what meyer was saying yesterday and he was going well actually when you think about it
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We're only talking about three percent of all christians are actually dispensational premillennialists
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And stuff like that and i'm going yeah, but they buy a lot of books Man, they buy a lot of books
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I hear these ads have you heard these ads they've got going for the left behind stuff I mean, what is this the 12th book?
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Is this like a cult starting or something like that? But they've got all these women on here going I just I was reading left behind and I opened my bible and I just wept and i'm just like Wow boy, somebody's got some money to be doing some advertising.
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That's all I can say. Anyways, i'm, sorry That's probably not what you were calling it about. No, not at all In fact, I uh, I used to joke around that.
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Uh, I think they're I haven't kept up with the books at all. But the 10th book which was called the remnant My joke was that that was the amount of people about left
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By the time they get to the book number 10 with that But uh, I don't know how many millions of that thing has that sold?
49:49
Yeah I mean you put them all together and somebody has got a retirement plan going. That's all I a few of my friends are have given up on the whole series.
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They dropped out about book six or seven So i'm not sure. Uh, well, you know, maybe diminishing returns.
50:03
Yeah, there you go. It's quite possible But anyway, I anyway I was raised as a Premillennial dispensationalist that makes two of us and since i've become reformed in my theology i've uh come to appreciate covenant theology and I guess my curious was my
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They're just curious about your thoughts specifically on um progressive dispensationalism
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And just just to get a kind of idea from what your position is, but more importantly uh the importance of having
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Such a distinction between the church and israel. I know paul um while he held to the some distinctions he still uh
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He still broadened the idea of the concept of israel, you know, not the circumcision of the flesh but of the heart
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And so, uh, but i'm curious about your your position on the the importance of perhaps maybe drawing such a distinction if it might affect, uh,
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The overall, you know overall theology or god's, um, you know purpose. Yeah. Well I'm going to say right up right up front that uh, this is not a subject.
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I claim any particular uh expertise in since uh since I became reformed and I still when people ask me
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Uh, you know, what's your eschatology people come into the channel all the time and say Oh, so what's james's eschatology?
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You know as if it was sort of a deep dark secret and in essence since I never discuss it Uh, a lot of folks are really uh amazed that I that I don't discuss it.
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Um I'm seeing more and more that it is important i'm seeing um
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Detecting shall we say in in a lot of systems? A overriding commitment to a particular eschatology that leads to very troubling exegetical flights of fancy You know when i'm reading someone
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I consider to be very very solid in a particular area and then all of a sudden they just Just just completely leap off the track and rock it off into the distance.
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I want to know why that happens and uh I'm noticing that in certain areas
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It's it's because of a commitment to a particular eschatological system and since I have not read all the books that I need to read uh to Put yourself in my position when
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I put myself out here There are very very few people who make themselves as accessible as I do
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And that has drawbacks believe me it has drawbacks because not only do the nice folks get through but the net cases get through as well
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And uh, and there are more and more of them as time goes by believe me um, and so the unfortunate problem is that I I really can't
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Sit here and say well, you know I'm sort of leaning toward this perspective uh, but you know, there's still a lot of issues that I haven't thought about and because as soon as I say
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This is what i'm leaning toward. This is sort of you know, someone's going to put a gun to my head This is what
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I would be Um as soon as I say that everybody who holds another perspective is going to be on me like ducks on a june bug
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Uh wanting to debate this issue and it's just not honestly. It just isn't Something that I find really exciting and things like that Now on this particular issue, you know,
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I I made a comment unfortunately last week sometime uh about a
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Someone had written to me and then said look uh This particular group has written something on john chapter 6 and I don't know how to respond to it
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Could you respond to it and I looked at it? And I said wow, this is actually a rather poor response
53:48
And so I I wrote a response put it on the blog so that more people would you know Have an opportunity looking at it and these individuals identified themselves as progressive dispensationalists, but I can tell remember the article
54:00
Yeah, but I could tell they were not like any progressive dispensationalist I had ever run into exactly and so the problem is
54:06
I don't I honestly don't know that I I could Fairly define what you think a progressive dispensationalist is so because i'm not exactly sure who you'd be identifying as being
54:18
I mean, who would you say is the uh representative of what you understand progressive dispensationalism to be well,
54:25
I guess that's the thing is that on the like on discerning reader, which I love going to that website. In fact, uh like checkbook screams every time
54:32
I I head there, but they seem to have uh, for example certain books by robert saucy like a case for progressive dispensationalism and I think it's a direction that they encourage in the sense that it's not uh, it kind of stems away from the riary and the uh
54:47
You know all these uh, the strong dispensational kind of thing, but I guess my more curious question is Um, I noticed you connect a lot of uh discussions concerning dispensationalism or something with end times, but i'm kind of curious
54:59
Is um, I guess to draw such a strong distinction between israel and the church or something Um, I guess it does affect
55:06
I guess it does jump to eschatology where some people it'll shape How they see future coming events.
55:12
Oh, yeah, it does it does. Yeah, it also it also ends up Playing a tremendous role in interpretation in romans 11 and passages like that Well, like the article that you mentioned, right?
55:22
There was a framework there that they would not abandon no and then and but I I think that's
55:27
I guess what I i'm i'm having trouble understanding is uh, paul seems to make a case for Drawing a distinction between israel and the church, but at the same time see that as a continuation of You know under the new covenant of what it was always intended to be and and so I don't
55:45
See a case I guess for drawing such a strict line Well, see I and I look at passages like philippians 3 3 um, and the the first peter 2
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All of these these passages that use such deep uh language that was so specifically identified with the people of israel and There is absolutely not the slightest hint of Embarrassment concern
56:15
Hesitation on the part of the new testament writers to apply these to the church and to the fulfillment of these promises and when you go back to the old testament many of these promises are very very much within the context of uh, what would be understood as a
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Almost a national israel type of situation. They see them being fulfilled in the church exactly and it's it seems
56:41
Very very clear to me and then I tie that together with with looking at what i'm been working on recently anyways writing an article for the reformed baptist theological review on The nature of the new covenant hebrews 8 hebrews 10 and I see the same
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Covenant language being used and yet being applied to the church and that obviously influences me greatly
57:05
I guess I could almost say that maybe maybe the reason the lord has just not Pushed me that direction at all is that at least in working on the material that i'm working on uh,
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I can honestly say that i'm i'm not Wedded to a particular
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Eschatological perspective that's driving my eschatology that eschatology driving my exegesis uh, hopefully when
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I do announce my uh, uh, my eschatological conclusions, they will then arrive at uh, primarily on the basis of exegesis not on the basis of uh,
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You know committing myself to something like that So, uh, I I can't really comment much on on some of those books because I just haven't read them
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I just know that it's really important that we derive our position from our exegesis not the other way around And hopefully that's what i'm trying to model for folks.
57:57
But hey daniel. Thank you very much for your call today We are out of time. We're going to head out and witness to some Well, not just mormon folks, but all sorts of folks out there in mesa.
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So uh pray for us It's been a long day for uh for me anyways, and so it's about to get longer.
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So, uh, anyway, uh, lord willing next Tuesday morning 11 a .m Uh, we'll be back here.
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See you then. God bless My alpha and omega ministries if you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -0318
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Or write us at p .o box 3 7 1 0 6 phoenix, arizona 8 5 0 6 9
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You can also find us on the worldwide web at aomin .org. That's a o m i n dot o r g
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Where you'll find a complete listing of james white's books tapes debates and tracks join us again next tuesday evening at 5 p .m