Regeneration and Perseverance (White vs Wilkin)

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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This lecture series is named after one of the great Christian heroes of American church history, namely

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Dr. Warfield. He was a tireless defender of the Reformed faith and a great scholar.

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Though dead, the truths that he held so dear live on in many churches today.

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I would like to acknowledge the contributions of some other organizations, namely

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KQCB that has given us a number of radio talks as we came down to this time, as well as the

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Meijer School of Business here at OCU. Perhaps the most important telling announcement of this evening is where the restrooms are.

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If you go out into the foyer, to the north there are some double doors. If you go through those double doors and turn right or east, conversely, if you turn to the south, there are some double doors.

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And likewise, turn back to your left and you'll find the restrooms. If you would, please turn your cell phones off so we will not detract from our speakers.

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This evening we're delighted to have and welcome to Oklahoma City Dr. Bob Wilkin, who comes to us from Dallas and is the

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Executive Director of Grace Evangelical Society. Dr. James White is from Phoenix and is the

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Director of the Alpha and Omega Ministries. Their respective positions are on the overhead to your respective front, and of course, they will fill those out for you as they speak.

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We are capturing the audio, and you will be able to recover that yourselves on either my website,

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GraceModels .org, or their websites. The rules here are quite simple. We're going to follow the stated agenda.

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We've got some indicators and stopwatches for our respondents to follow. Given their relative size to me,

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I ask them to stop. I would ask you to refrain from any applause so as not to detract from an already ambitious agenda.

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Lastly, in many respects, since both of these men profess to be

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Christian, to belong to the Church of Christ, even though they are going to contend very earnestly in their respective positions,

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I know they will do so with great charity. I would ask that you will adopt that same stance as well.

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It is always good in the Christian faith that we contend for the truth, that we express charity and love.

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It is my desire as the moderator that we follow the agenda. It's my desire that the Scripture be clearly presented, and of course, that the truth will prevail.

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If you have a question that comes to your mind, there are some three -by -five cards out in the foyer.

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Wipe them out and turn them in to the ladies and gentlemen out there. And we'll collect those up and try to get to as many of them as we possibly can during the time allowance.

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Before we begin with Dr. White, let us bow our heads in that way. Lord, we recall the great prayer from the

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Scripture, sanctify us by the truth. Thy word is truth. In God's grace, we ask it.

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Amen. It is indeed a pleasure to be with you this evening.

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I thank you for coming out for this very important subject tonight. I hope that you will be blessed by this discussion.

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I hope that this discussion only begins your interest in the subject. I hope that for many of you this evening, you'll be going home and you will be looking in your

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Bibles, not just tonight, but for quite some time to come. I come here this evening as an elder of a reformed

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Baptist church, one who believes firmly in what are often called the doctrines of grace, and as one who believes that these issues are not merely areas of small disagreement that can be glossed over, but are instead central to how we define the gospel, the church, and the very purpose of our existence.

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Our debate this evening, sadly, is very brief, and we will have little opportunity to expand upon many points that I'm sure both

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Dr. Wilkin and I would like to treat much more fully. Our debate this evening truly touches upon the foundational differences between a reformed

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Calvinistic theology and a non -reformed, non -lordship position. I believe a disciplined, full -orbed, consistent exegesis of the text of Scripture and Scripture alone teaches us that the triune

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God is glorifying himself through the redemption of a people in Christ Jesus, a people who are zealous for good deeds.

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I believe salvation is all of the Lord, and that we err grievously when we look at it from the underside, from the human perspective, rather than seeing it first and foremost as having its focus upon God's glory,

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God's freedom. I firmly believe the only consistent reading of the entirety of Scripture reveals that men are dead in their sins, unwilling and unable to come to Christ in faith, outside of the drawing of the

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Father, and that the Spirit of God must raise all such sinners to spiritual life before they can exercise that saving faith that is natural to the reborn soul.

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But I need to emphasize at the beginning this evening that unless you are familiar with the unique position of non -lordship salvation presented by Dr.

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Wilkin, you may well misunderstand much of what is said this evening. I have taken the time to read

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Dr. Wilkin's book, Confident in Christ, and to examine relevant journal articles in the Journal of the

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Grace Evangelical Society, and if you are here this evening, coming from a Reformed background,

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I need to provide a very, very brief synopsis of key issues that directly impact our topic this evening so as to avoid confusion.

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These are citations on the screen in front of you from Confident in Christ, page 19. None of us would ever seek

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God if left purely to our own initiative. But since God is seeking each and every one of us, we are free to respond to the light

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God gives us. Also on page 21, Jesus paid the complete penalty for our sins by his death on the cross.

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It made us savable, and the italics are in the original.

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Please note the difference between viewing the death of Christ as substitutionary in the sense of with the elect, which affirms and brings about something and making us savable, depending upon what we do in regards to an act of faith.

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Page 21 says, The gospel simply stated is this, by virtue of his death, burial, and resurrection,

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Jesus Christ gives eternal life to anyone who just believes in him for it. If you are convinced of this, you have believed the gospel.

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Whether it seems too simple or not, that is the gospel. Though it doesn't include turning from sins, commitment of life, and doing good works, that is the gospel.

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And finally, as far as just to give you an idea of what the non -lordship position is, so you can hear the word faith as it is being used tonight, quote, none of us,

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I'm sorry, none of us can be sure that our experience of faith will remain intact until we go to be with the

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Lord. Not all believers successfully navigate their way through this life. Yet God guarantees all believers eternal life, even those who suffer shipwreck concerning the faith, 1

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Timothy 1 .19. There is no time requirement on saving faith. At the moment of faith, the believer receives eternal life once and for all, whether he dies shortly thereafter, whether he lives for 100 more years, even if a person believes only for a while, he still has eternal life.

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So we are not engaging the normal Calvinist -Arminian debate over the ordo salutis, the order of salvation this evening, for not even the remonstrants went so far as to say that repentance was in fact unnecessary.

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And surely the reformers never defined sola fide in this fashion either, as we will see later.

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Now, to establish my point, I must establish the following truths as being ground in biblical revelation so as to establish the relevant portion of the ordo salutis, this first portion of our debate.

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That is, regeneration precedes faith. To prove this, I must present the free, sovereign decree of God to save and elect people.

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Secondly, the deadness of man in sin. Thirdly, the inability of man to believe because of the number two.

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And fourth, saving faith as the gift of God. Now, if in fact God has sovereignly chosen to glorify himself through the free, gracious redemption of a people in Christ, then it follows that his work will answer to man's situation, to man's need.

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Therefore, since the Bible says we are dead in our trespasses and sins, incapable of coming to Christ on our own, then the work of the

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Spirit of God in regeneration will need to provide us that which we need, including the gifts of faith and repentance, the two sides of the one coin that represents the response of the reborn soul to Christ.

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Faith in him, a turning from sin, that sin that nailed him to Calvary's tree.

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Now, I believe that God freely chooses to save and elect people. Though outside our strict subject this evening, the fact is that this belief is part of what separates the two sides tonight.

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At the most basic level, the freedom of God to save is what separates monergists from synergists and leads to our differences in other areas as well.

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A monergist, a person who believes that there is one effective power or source that brings about salvation, a synergist believing that there is a cooperation.

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Even if it's a cooperation of a big, huge force and a very small force, it is still a matter of cooperation.

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Now, the fact that God has chosen in eternity past, Ephesians chapter 1 verses 4 through 12, to save a specific people in Christ Jesus and in him alone is clearly the testimony of scripture.

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Those who are thusly elected in time through the instrumentality of the Holy Spirit believe, that is the message of Ephesians chapter 1 as you follow it through.

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God's eternal choice results in our faith in time. It is not

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God looking down the corridors of time and acting according to what he sees us doing. That is never the meaning of the verb to foreknow when

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God is the subject. Our belief is the result of God's eternal actions. In the same way, in the golden chain of redemption, in Romans chapter 8 verses 28 to 30, this golden chain tells us that those who are predestined are also called, justified, and glorified.

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Since justification is by faith, faith itself cannot be a wild card in the salvation of the elect, but a part of the work of God itself.

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The Lord Jesus taught that he would save a particular people given to him by the

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Father and that he would not lose a single one of them in John chapter 6 verses 37 through 39.

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In fact, he said it was the Father's will for him that he would not lose any of those who were given to him.

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Likewise, eternal life is given to all whom the Father has given to the

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Son, John chapter 17 verse 2. That is important to remember, for it's going to be asserted that, well, you believe any act of belief results in eternal life, but it is interesting that in Jesus' own prayer in John 17, he indicates that he gives eternal life to those whom the

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Father gave him. Well, what does that mean? Well, one side has said, well, that means the Father looked down the corridors of time and does what he does based upon what he foresees.

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The Bible teaches that the reason I come to Christ is because I've been given to the

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Father, I've been drawn by the Father to the Son, and that is why God is glorified in the salvation of undeserving, elect sinners.

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Reformed theology teaches that the result of the divine electing grace of God is the perfect salvation of all those thusly chosen.

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But since salvation is also said to be by grace through faith, faith itself cannot, unless salvation is uncertain and election conditional, be anything other than a part of the work of the

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Spirit in regeneration. The flip side of divine election relevant to this matter is the deadness of man in sin.

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The Lord Jesus plainly taught, no one is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

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No man has the ability in and of himself to come to Christ. Because of the slavery to sin, no man has this capacity.

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And further, not all are effectively drawn by the Father to the Son. If it is your bent to immediately go from John 6 to John 12 to try to get around what

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Jesus says here, please realize something. All those who are drawn by the

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Father to the Son are raised up by the Son in John 6, 44. There is no distinction there.

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So if you're going to try to say, well, God the Father draws all men, well then you're sort of stuck being a universalist.

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All men are going to be saved. They're going to be raised up by Jesus Christ, which means to give eternal life.

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Ephesians chapter 2, verses 1 through 4 teaches that we are dead in our trespasses and sins. In Romans 8,

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Paul presents the contrast between being in the Spirit and being in the flesh. And this is not a discussion about kinds of Christians.

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He also tells us there is none who seeks for God, Romans 3, 11. And the natural man does not receive the things of the

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Spirit of God, 1 Corinthians chapter 2, verse 14. These are not exactly flattering descriptions, but they are honest descriptions of man in his sin.

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Man's fallen spiritual state results in his inability to do the very thing that brings salvation.

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Believe, come. Anyone coming to me, as Jesus said in John 6? Looking to Christ, John 6, 40.

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Note Jesus' words as to the impact of sin. Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

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Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear my word. He who is of God hears the words of God.

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For this reason, you do not hear them because you are not of God. This passage reverses the standard

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Arminian order that all men can hear if they just choose to do so, that all can understand if they simply choose to do so, but Jesus teaches in a very different fashion.

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Lydia, likewise, illustrates the necessary action of the Spirit of God prior to the response of the sinner.

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Remember the words in Acts 16, 14. A woman named Lydia from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God.

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She was one who attended the synagogue services, though not a full proselyte, was listening, and the

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Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. Why would that have to be?

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Why would God have to act in this particular fashion to open her heart to respond if it is simply within the capacity of all men?

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Earlier, Paul had experienced this divine work firsthand. Acts 13, 48 says, when the

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Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

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It's not they believed and therefore were appointed to eternal life. It is many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

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The scriptural testimony to the necessity of a specific, effective work of grace prior to faith is wide indeed.

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Now, saving faith is described as the gift of God in numerous ways. Thanks is given for the faith of the saints along with their love, showing that these are gifts of God.

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Faith is said to come through Christ, and we are said to believe through him. Our faith in him is specifically said to be granted to us in Philippians 1, 29.

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That is why Ephesians 2, 8 through 9 can include faith along with grace and salvation as a gift from God.

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But, as time is very, very fleeting and has gone by very, very quickly, at least for me, maybe not for you, let's get to the heart of the matter.

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I'd like to present the Apostle John in 1 John as a prime witness for this particular section of the debate, and that is the fact that regeneration precedes the exercise of saving faith.

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The Apostle John spoke of the one who is born of God in these words.

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1 John 2, 29. If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of him.

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So I ask you a question. What is the relationship between practices righteousness and is born of him?

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What is the relationship between those particular terms? You see, we see from everything that's come before the foundation of why

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Reformed theologians believe the sinner must be raised to spiritual life before he or she can exercise that rich divine act called saving faith.

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The dead sinner enslaved to sin, opposed in heart and mind to God with every sinew and breath, suppressing the knowledge of God, is hardly a candidate to believe savingly in the

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Savior. Such a person will not desire to be joined to Christ, to abide in him, to look to him for all spiritual sustenance, to love him rather than the world.

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Join these truths of the fact that faith is described as a gift given to the elect, and man's inherent inability to believe savingly outside the special work of the

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Spirit in their lives, and the necessity of regeneration to precede and provide the basis of saving faith is plainly seen and established.

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But looking at a passage like this, asking the one question, what is the relationship?

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Does one practice righteousness so as to become born again? You see, in 229, practice is righteousness is literally the one doing.

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It's a present tense participle. Obviously, one does not do righteousness so as to be born of God.

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One does righteousness because one has already been born of God, and this is the natural reading of the

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Greek as well, for has been born of him is a perfect passive verb. Now you say, what does that have to do with faith?

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Notice the relationship and follow these along. Now notice here, 1

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John 4, 7, Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and everyone who loves is born of God and knows

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God. Once again, as in 229, a present tense participle, the one loving, is connected to has been born of God.

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Do we love so as to become born of God? Or do we love because we have already been reborn?

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Hopefully, no one here this evening is confused into thinking that the biblical message is you do works of righteousness to be born again.

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You do acts of love so as to be born again. So what is John's consistent testimony?

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That this being born of God, the things that these people are doing right now, they're loving, they're doing acts of righteousness, the reason they're doing those things is because they have been born from God.

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So that takes us to 1 John 5, 1. Whoever believes that Jesus is the

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Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. Notice yet once again, what's the relationship between believing and being born of God?

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This is a direct parallel to the first two. The believing is the ongoing action, being born of God, the perfect passive.

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And so if in the other two passages being born of God results in our loving, being born of God results in our doing works of righteousness, and John is consistent with himself, then what does 1

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John 5, 1 teach? That being born of God results in our ongoing faith and belief in Him.

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It is the renewed nature that causes us to continue in our faith.

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Regeneration precedes saving faith. So what does it matter? If saving faith can be exercised by the spiritually dead person, why does

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God say He will take out our heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh since the heart of stone can savingly believe already?

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If a slave can simply choose to be free, was he or she a slave to begin with?

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And if we are truly spiritually dead, would it have made sense to ask

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Lazarus to have faith when he was in the grave? Certainly not.

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Regeneration, C .H. Spurgeon said, is not a thing which takes place upon matter, it is the thing of spirit.

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The birth of spirit must be the subject of consciousness and though a man may not be able to say that at such and such a moment he was regenerated, yet the act of faith is a consciousness of regeneration.

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The moment I believe in Jesus Christ, my faith is an index to me of work that has gone on within and the secret work within and the open act of faith without,

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God has joined together and let no man put them asunder. Why does this matter?

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What is the point? If saving faith is the capacity of the rebel sinner, if saving faith is merely the ability of any person outside the work of the

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Spirit of God, then why is it that God is the one who is glorified in the salvation of sinners when he simply has made us savable but he has not himself actually brought about our salvation?

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Does he share his glory with the creature and why is it that you believe tonight and not the people walking past the window to our right, to your left?

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Are you better than they? Smarter? Wiser? More spiritual? If we do not believe this, then we have to say that somehow we ourselves made the decision and somehow we ourselves are accountable for why we have been saved and they have not.

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The Scripture teaches it is God's place, not man's place, to make that decision. Thank you very much.

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Which one is yours?

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This one here? One regeneration precede. And I advance by just hitting the right arrow?

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That's correct. And you'll just need to start the 20. How do you hook this on?

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Do you just kind of jam it on there? Sort of. Okay. Okay.

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Our topic this evening in the first hour is the question, Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

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According to the Bible, faith is the conviction that something is true.

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And when we're going to talk about regeneration preceding faith isn't important. We know what faith is.

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And unfortunately, when we talk about Dr. White's view of faith, we get an illogical and unbiblical presentation of what faith is.

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Dr. White's view of faith does not correspond with what the Scriptures say.

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And one of the things I like to do when I'm talking with people is I will say, Jesus said, He who believes in me has everlasting life.

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Do you believe in Jesus? Oftentimes in America people say yes, right? When you ask them, do you believe in Jesus, they say yes.

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So I say, well what do you have? Jesus says, He who believes in me has everlasting life. I don't know.

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So then I say, well this isn't rocket science. You say you believe in Jesus and Jesus says, John 6, 47, He who believes in me has everlasting life.

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Oh, oh, well I see what you're saying. If it was that simple, I'd have everlasting life. Right? But it's not that simple.

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Oh? Well no, if you read the Bible, it's obvious in the Bible there's a whole lot of things

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God wants us to do, a whole lot of commands and you've got to keep all these commands in order to make it to heaven. Well now that line of reasoning would not work with Dr.

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White. With many people you could argue that way and the person would say they're not believing what the

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Bible says because Jesus says, He who believes in me has everlasting life. They say they believe in him.

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They don't know they have everlasting life. Obviously they don't believe what Jesus says. But Dr. White cannot fall into that issue because for Dr.

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White, Dr. White's issue would be, I don't know if I believe. In fact, we're going to see tonight that Dr.

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White is not sure he's born again. He's not sure he has eternal life. He's not sure whether he has temporary faith or permanent faith.

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He's not sure whether he's elect or not. He's not sure whether he's a true or a false professor. And yet he's here debating this subject today because you see what he would say is

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I'm still in the flesh and I'm committed to Jesus but what if my commitment isn't enough? Or worse yet, what if I fall away in the future?

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I might fall away in the future and prove I never really was born again in the first place. So unfortunately for Dr.

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White, Dr. White does not know where he stands on the issue of his own eternal destiny. Let's take a look at a few of the quotes from Dr.

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White. Last year on Reformation Day, October 31, 2004, in a message entitled

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Sola Fide, which I think we all know means by faith alone, he's advocating

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Paul's view of what justification by faith alone and he was telling people how they could be clear when they evangelize and give

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Paul's Sola Fide message. He said, Objection. How do you answer this objection?

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That sounds too easy. God must demand more of me. Immediately, the next word out of Dr.

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White's mouth were, quote, Yes, he actually demands all of you. That's what faith is really all about.

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Now this is in the Sola Fide message and he's telling us that faith is not propositional.

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Faith is a total commitment of your life to Jesus Christ. At the Alpha and Omega Ministries website on February 28th of this year,

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Dr. White had a little bit to say about this debate. Notice what he says. Dr. Wilkin is a leading anti -lordship advocate.

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That's not the way I advertise myself, but from my perspective, his position is grossly imbalanced because it insists upon only a single element of the truth to the exclusion of everything else.

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He goes on. Faith alone becomes faith separated from the work of regeneration, the spirit, the new nature, et cetera.

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Faith without repentance, all repentance passages are consigned to discipleship, belief without discipleship, et cetera.

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It is a very imbalanced perspective, one that comes from an overreaction to a works salvation mindset.

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A bit later on, he said, keeping Christ's word is surely more than a naked faith. It's interesting.

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When I searched his website, I found a statement of faith. Notice this on his statement of faith. As a result of this faith, and he was talking about God's gift of saving faith, based upon the sacrifice of the

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Lord Jesus Christ, God justifies or makes righteous the one who believes.

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Now, the traditional reform view is the imputation of righteousness, not the impartation of righteousness.

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Most reform people would say God declares us righteous. That's what justification is. However, at Dr.

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White's website, they say God makes us righteous. I believe this is either an error on their website, or it flows out of his view of faith being this really big thing that includes what we believe, and also our commitment, our obedience, our repentance, our turning from sins, our perseverance, etc.

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Now, Dr. White's faulty view of faith has four catastrophic consequences, and I'd like to talk about those briefly.

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First, Dr. White's view of faith garbles the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let's look at some of the statements we just read.

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Yes, he actually demands of all of you, that's what faith is really all about. Naked faith, we're told, is not sola fide.

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Now, that's kind of funny here, because when you think of sola fide in Latin, it means by faith alone.

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Wouldn't faith alone be faith alone? But no, we've got to dress up faith with good works in order for it to be biblical faith.

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I mean, wouldn't sola fide sound an awful lot like naked faith? He also says

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God justifies or makes righteous the one who believes. Well, notice what he's saying here is he does admit that justification is for the one who believes, so belief precedes justification.

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Belief, in his view, does not precede regeneration, but it precedes justification and we'll look at this more in a minute, but notice he says it makes righteous and notice he says it's a very imbalanced perspective, one that comes from an overreaction to a work salvation mindset.

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I'm sorry, but when you read the book of Galatians, Paul is real worked up about a work salvation mindset.

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Read Galatians 1, 6 through 9 when Paul anathematizes anyone preaching any other gospel than what he preached, which

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I take it to mean put them under the curse of God, and Paul's not real thrilled and in chapter 5 in verse 12 he says,

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I wish they wouldn't just circumcise, but I wish they would cut everything off. I mean, the Apostle Paul is real worked up in the book of Galatians over work salvation mentality and what

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Dr. White implies here is it's okay to have a mild reaction to a work salvation mindset.

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That I find extremely disturbing. Secondly, Dr. White's view of faith leads him to believe that regeneration and justification occur at different times.

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Now this is not typical within reform thought, at least the people that I've read. They say justification and regeneration occur simultaneously because if justification is

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God declaring us righteous and regeneration is God giving us eternal life, then obviously those would occur together.

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But in Dr. White's view, at least from a logical standpoint, you have people who are born again but who are not righteous.

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Born again, but they're not declared righteous in God's sight. So you would have unjustified regenerate people.

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Does that make sense? It doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand it. Now why is it that he comes to this position?

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Well, Dr. White believes that regeneration is not a result of works, which is great.

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But Dr. White believes that faith is laced with works so that faith itself, in his view, is meritorious.

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Are you with me on this? Because this is a crucial point in this debate. He believes faith is work.

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Faith is commitment, it's obedience, it's turning from your sins, it's perseverance and good works.

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So when he loads it all up with works, then he says, aha, regeneration has to precede faith.

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But then, how is it that he says that justification follows faith? Now does he believe that justification is by faith, but faith is work, so that's the same as saying justification is by meritorious works, isn't it?

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I don't understand what's going on here. Because his faith is a work, he's got this justification by works, and it's quite confusing.

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Three, his view of spiritual deadness is not a biblical understanding of what spiritual deadness is.

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For example, he likes to talk about various passages in the scriptures that talk about spiritual deadness, and he implies that spiritual deadness means a person has no spiritual sensitivity whatsoever.

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For example, you may have heard his allusion to Lazarus coming forth. In many of his debates, he talks about this and says,

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Lazarus being called by Jesus to come forth from the tomb is an illustration of regeneration preceding faith.

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Yet, most Calvinists do not believe that Lazarus coming forth from the tomb is an illustration of regeneration preceding faith.

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You see, Lazarus was already born again at that point. How is he an illustration of an unregenerate person being regenerated when he's simply a regenerate person being brought back to physical life?

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It doesn't make sense. That's eisegesis. That's reading your theology into the text.

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Also, one of the things Dr. White does not talk about is the Greek words for dead and death.

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Necros and necroo. Those words, when they are used metaphorically, that is figuratively in the scriptures, do not literally mean death.

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And yet, when you find Dr. White talking about these things, you find him assuming that the audience thinks we're talking about literal death.

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But, for example, in the scriptures, we don't see it this way. In James 4 .19, we're told that when

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Abraham conceived his son, his body was quote, already dead. Well, it was dead in the sense that he did not have the ability fully to pull this off.

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It was ineffective. His body was ineffective, but it didn't mean that he was lifeless. It didn't mean he wasn't alive, which was the way

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Dr. White would press the illustration. Or, for example, in Colossians 3 .5, Paul commands, put to death your members which are on the earth.

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That is, don't give power to your flesh, but yield to the Spirit of God. in the

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Prodigal Son, Luke 15 .24, this, my son, was dead and is alive again. That is, he was cut off from me in terms of fellowship, and now he's back in fellowship with me again.

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The figurative uses of necros and necroo do not refer to total inability. They refer to someone who is ineffective, something that is unprofitable.

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Now, look at the Ephesians 2 .5 passage. It's interesting that he alluded to this even when we were dead in our trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved.

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Notice what we have here. Dead is the opposite of being made alive in Ephesians 2 .5.

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So he could say even when you were unregenerate, he regenerated you. So death in Ephesians 2 .5

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means you did not have eternal life. And he gave you eternal life. It doesn't say anything about whether you have the capacity to believe.

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It doesn't say anything about spiritual inability. It just means the person lacks eternal life. And they are dead.

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But it's used metaphorically in this context to refer to a spiritual death, lack of the life of God.

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And by the way, notice there's no mention of Lazarus, there's no mention here of dead bodies, no mention of rocks or spiritual insensitivity.

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It's interesting that in Ephesians 2 .5, let's see if I have this up here. No, okay, we'll come back to that in a second.

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In Ephesians 2 .5, he says, by grace you were saved. Notice he defines what saved is by made alive.

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Saved in Ephesians 2 .5 is regenerated, made alive. Well, we'll come back to this more if we have time.

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It's interesting, in his debate with Pastor Barker, Dr. White said that Nicodemus was led by the

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Holy Spirit to come by Jesus in John 3. My question for Dr. White is if Nicodemus was not born again when he came to Jesus in John 3, and spiritual death means you have no spiritual sensitivity whatsoever, how did the

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Holy Spirit get in touch with Nicodemus? How could Nicodemus respond to the

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Holy Spirit? Are you suggesting he was born again when Jesus said you must be born again?

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And if he wasn't born again, how in the world did the Spirit guide him? Maybe you misspoken in the debate with Dr. Barker, but I'd like you to discuss that.

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Also, how can this fit your view of deadness? Another question

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I have is, Cornelius, according to Acts 11 and verse 14, Cornelius was told that you should send to Simon Peter and he will tell you and your household words by which you and all your household will be saved.

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Clearly, Cornelius was not yet regenerate, and yet God sends an angel to him and guess what? He hears what the angel says, he sends to Simon Peter, Simon Peter comes and evangelizes him, and guess what?

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In Acts 10, 44, it says the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening. It's only when they hear

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Peter preaching, the Holy Spirit falls and they are born again. So I'd like Dr. White to explain, why weren't they born again before the angel comes to him?

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Why is it when Peter has preached the good news to them, they're born again? This doesn't fit your view. It doesn't make any sense.

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Finally, misinterpreting regeneration by faith passages. Dr. White, over and over again, is going to misunderstand these passages because of his view of faith.

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It leads him in a different direction. For example, Ephesians 2, 8, By grace you have been saved, that is, made alive with Christ, through faith.

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In Greek, this is dia plus the genitive. And dia expresses either means, instrument, or agency.

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And means always precedes result. So what Paul says is, you were made alive by means of faith.

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That means you had to have faith in order to be made alive. Here's an illustration. This woman is bringing this man food.

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Well, she could say, he was sustained through, or by means of, the food.

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Dia plus the genitive. Dia R2 in Greek would be by means of bread. The means always precedes the result.

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This is an obvious grammar point. Faith is the means by which we are born again. We can't have eternal life without first partaking of the bread of life, the word of God.

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1 Corinthians 4, 5, In Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. I notice

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Dr. White didn't show you passages that use the expression begotten, or born again, or the new birth.

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Why not? Maybe because they all talk about the fact that it's through the gospel, through the word of God, through faith.

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Again, we have Dia plus the genitive here. They were born again through the gospel.

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That is, by means of the gospel. When the feeding tube was removed from the woman in Florida, you could say, she was sustained through the feeding tube.

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Once you took the feeding tube away, she died. Why? Because it's not like the bread of life.

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The bread of life, once you partake of it, you're eternally secure. But the food that we eat, we've got to eat and eat and eat.

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Once we partake of the bread of life, we have everlasting life. 1 Peter 1, 23 -25,

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Having been born again through the word of truth. Again, we have Dia plus the genitive expressing means or agency or instrumentality.

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No one is born again except through the word of truth. And by the way, this is a typical five -point Calvinist understanding of regeneration.

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That regeneration is by means of the word of God. But this is not Dr. White's position.

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I'd like him to explain that as well. Of his own will, he brought us forth by the word of truth. Now here we don't have a preposition.

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We have a dative and a genitive. The word logos, we get the word word. This is in the dative. Logo aletheos.

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Dative plus genitive. By means of the word of truth. The dative in the New Testament, the dative case

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Dana and Manning points out is primarily demonstrating means. And so the point is he's saying

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God regenerates people by means of the word of truth. Not apart from the word of truth.

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Means precedes the results. How about John 5 .25? Catch this. The hour is coming and now is when the dead, this is necros and the plural necroi, will hear the voice of the son of God and those who hear will live.

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Now in light of verse 24, the life here is eternal life. He who hears my word and believes in him with faith and has sent me has everlasting life.

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Notice the spiritually dead here. How is it Dr. White the spiritually dead here? I thought the spiritually dead when you had your debate on the radio with Dave Hunt you said the spiritually dead were like people at the bottom of a well who were corpses.

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They couldn't move, see, hear, or do anything. But now we find they can hear. And notice also that it's the one who hears that will live.

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It's a future tense. And it says they will live if they hear. And hearing is clearly believing in light of verse 24.

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So this is totally contrary to the position advocated. Also John 4 .14 How about this?

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Talking to the woman at the well he says whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst but the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.

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Notice the water is not everlasting life. The water is the saving message. And when you drink the water one drink forever quenches your thirst and it springs up into you in everlasting life.

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Because once I believe that Jesus is the Messiah who guarantees eternal life to all who simply believe in him then

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I have that everlasting life. You must drink the living water to have the message within you.

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That's a figure for believing. And everlasting life only comes after one believes. I'd like Dr. White to explain this text as well.

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In conclusion Dr. White argues that regeneration precedes faith but the reason he does so is because he has imposed a faulty view of faith on each and every one of us.

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He has said that faith is this type of thing which includes commitment obedience yieldedness to the lordship of Christ perseverance etc.

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Faith is not simply the conviction that something is true. Now let's go on.

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Dr. White's view of faith means he isn't sure he is regenerate and he doesn't believe you can be either. We'll hit this more in the next hour but I just want to point out if perseverance is required to prove you have genuine faith well then

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Dr. White doesn't know he's going to persevere neither do I neither do you. And the best he can hope for is

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I hope I don't end up in hell. I believe this is what Dr. White thinks his theology looks like.

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I've heard him speak many times in his debates etc. and he believes he's glorifying God and presenting a wonderful mansion a beautiful picture of what

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God's glory is like but yet because of his view of faith his view of faith is rotted wood and as a result instead of that this is what his theology is like.

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It's a tottering shack that's about to fall because it's not us simply believing in the

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Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life but it's us living a good life so that we can hopefully be good enough to have eternal life.

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Thank you. I believe if I have counted correctly this is the 55th moderated public debate that I have done.

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I have debated Muslims Roman Catholics Jehovah's Witnesses Mormons and I have never been more badly or poorly misrepresented than I just was.

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I don't recognize almost anything that was just said about me and anyone who has read The God Who Justifies who has listened to my debates against Roman Catholics on justification cannot help but be absolutely positively aghast at most of what was just said.

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I got myself in a tremendous amount of trouble recently for defending the doctrine of imputation in regards to some compromises of that doctrine by certain individuals but I was just accused of compromising the doctrine of imputation based upon misapprehension misunderstanding not based upon serious study of what

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I have written. We have been told the white's view of faith is not biblical because it is not unidimensional it's just simply not believing

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I believe that there is a projector there that's all faith evidently is except the

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Bible including the Gospel of John talks about faith in an ongoing present tense and it also uses terms like coming beholding eating drinking hearing obeying sounds like the

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Gospel of John has a much deeper understanding of what faith is than what has been assumed by Dr.

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Wilkin. He says later on we'll talk about how I'm not sure I don't know how I'm not sure indeed how

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Dr. Wilkin knows all these things about me I don't recognize most of what he said about my position because he clearly does not understand it evidently that's going to be the part where he's going to die is anything called false faith.

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There is no false faith the people in John 2 that Jesus did not entrust himself to they're still saved.

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People in John 8 stone Jesus they're still saved as long as there's any act of faith what that means is there's no such thing as a false faith as long as you've had any act of faith then that's true saving faith.

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I suggest to you that that is not doing justice to what the Bible teaches. I've already said that I do not believe in the impartation of righteousness anyone who's read

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The God Who Justifies a 400 page hardback knows that. He describes my view of faith as this really big thing.

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Yeah I think that which unites the elect to Jesus Christ is a really big thing. I think it's more than just simply the nodding of the head

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I think it's more than the tipping of the hat and that's because the Bible describes it in that way in many different passages.

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He says that I dress up faith with good works and hence don't believe in Sola Fide. What Dr.

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Wilkin has presented tonight is not believed by John Calvin by Martin Luther by the

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Westminster Confession by any of the reformers who used the term Sola Fide as I'll demonstrate in the second portion of the debate.

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So the point is that we have a sub -Sola Fide being presented and those who present what has been believed by those theologians in that tradition all along is being identified as some form of works salvation or something along these lines.

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He then seemingly believes that I don't share

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Paul's aversion to works salvation from the book of Galatians. It is amazing. I have been attacked vociferously over the past few weeks for pointing out that Pope John Paul II did not believe in a saving gospel.

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I believe what the book of Galatians says. I have defended that gospel in debate against the leading

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Roman Catholic apologists in the United States. I can assure you that I do believe what

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Paul says there. I also believe what he says in verse 521 of the book of Galatians when he lists all these sins and says those who practice these things will not inherit the kingdom of God which is the exact opposite of the conclusions of the anti -Lordship position that says you can practice all these things but you'll still get eternal life.

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That's not really inheriting the kingdom of God. Something along those lines. He then asks questions about the ordo salutis as if the ordo salutis is meant to present merely a temporal progression of events rather than a logical progression of events and he grossly mischaracterized me and misrepresented me over and over again by saying

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I didn't believe that the word of God is used to bring about regeneration. Notice he never quoted me on that. He can't because I don't say that.

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That's a misrepresentation of me given to him by Bob Ross. I had refuted that last year but Mr. Ross doesn't listen and so he's just repeating the bad information that he has been given.

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God uses the spirit and the word of God to bring about regeneration. Now there are people who argue well then that immediately means that this is going to happen and it has to happen concurrently.

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The ordo salutis is a logical discussion. It is not a temporal discussion and the one who is regenerated by the spirit of God his nature is to believe and repent.

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His nature is to come to Christ and be continuously coming and at least

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I'm going to gladly accept the characterization that I believe that saving faith is something more than mere intellectual assent because the

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Protestant Reformation has condemned as a heresy that perspective from the very beginning and I join with that.

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He says I believe that I make faith meritorious. That is utterly and a thousand percent completely untrue.

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The very fact that election is unconditional that is based solely upon the free act of God destroys any concept of merit.

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I would suggest to you that the actual condemnation should go the other direction because of what

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I said before. Why are you sitting in here believing and those people are walking by out there not believing.

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Are you better? Did you merit it? Are you more spiritually sensitive? If Dr.

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Wilkins does not believe in unconditional election, does not believe that God has an eternal free decree defining who he is going to save by his own mercy and grace then he is the one who is making here only mere intellectual assent a meritorious thing that makes you better than somebody else.

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I do not make faith meritorious in any way shape or form. Further, Dr. Wilkins has no concept of what

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I believe about the deadness of man and sin. The illustrations that were brought up really have nothing to do.

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If you have read the Potter's Freedom, if you have read God's Sovereign Grace, if you have read The God Who Justifies, you know that these were simply canards.

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They were straw men that have nothing to do with the position I actually take. When I say a man is dead in sin, yes he lacks eternal life.

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He is under the condemnation of God. And he lacks the ability to come to Christ.

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That's what Jesus said in John 6, 44. He said, No man is able to come to me unless the

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Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day. The one who is drawn is the one who is raised up.

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Jesus is the one who said that a slave does not have a certain freedom to hear.

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These are Jesus' words. Misrepresenting me doesn't answer what Jesus himself taught.

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I would like to hear a response to the biblical passages that were presented. We had something about most

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Calvinists. Don't see Lazarus the way I do. I don't know. I'm not really overly concerned when someone just simply starts using terms like most or many.

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How about we get some names? How about we get some citations? I would certainly like that. At least when

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I gave you Dr. Wilkins' position, I gave you the book and the page number. Not just simply, well,

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I heard this in a debate someplace with a Baptist or a Church of Christ fellow. He says that necros is not literal.

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So dead never means really dead. So does that mean in Ephesians 2 the spiritual resurrection isn't really a spiritual resurrection?

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Whatever being spiritually dead in Ephesians 2 means, I don't know about you, but I'm awful glad that being spiritually raised to life is pretty literal.

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I hope it's not just metaphorical. What is that referring to? What is it communicating to us?

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It's God who raises us to life. It's God who does this. I don't have any idea what in the world the

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Nicodemus question was about. I don't believe that because a person is spiritually dead that that means the

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Holy Spirit is not able to do things. Look at Nebuchadnezzar. Look at these pagans. Look at what common grace is.

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These are basic misapprehensions of basic Reformed theology that I just simply can't even begin to understand how they came into this particular situation.

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How can Cornelius hear the angel? He spoke. It's a pure straw man to say that my position on spiritual deadness means that they'd be going,

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I can't hear you. That's not anything even close to what I've attempted to communicate. He says that I don't believe that the word of God is used in bringing about regeneration.

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That is untrue. You can't find that in what I've written. Finally, I have 45 seconds.

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John chapter 5 verse 25. The dead hear. Yes. The dead hear and are raised to life.

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It's the speaking of the Son of Man that results in this. Not their action. It doesn't say they chose to hear and then were able to be raised to spiritual life.

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Look at John 8 47. It says they don't have the ability unless they belong to God. Listen to everything that the word of God presents to us and you will see that this unidimensional, this sub -biblical view of faith is not consonant with what is taught by Jesus or any of his apostles.

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That's what the second half of the debate will be about. Let's see how many of these points we can discuss.

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In the first place concerning faith, Dr. White said faith is not unidirectional.

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When Jesus says he who believes in me has everlasting life, is there not a unidirection there?

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Is not Jesus saying that simply by faith in him a person has everlasting life?

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He pointed out that the present tense is used and he said different figures are used like eating and drinking. Well, it's interesting.

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Look at John 4. He says he who drinks the water of life is never going to thirst again.

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John 6 35. He who comes to me will never hunger. He who believes in me will never thirst. One eating of the bread of life

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I'm never going to hunger again, right? Not in Dr. White's view. In Dr. White's view I've got to keep on drinking and eating my whole life and if I ever stop believing,

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I prove I never had it in the first place. Which is why Dr. White does not know if he's born again, which

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I noticed he didn't comment on that but we'll hope he's going to comment on whether he's sure he's going to persevere and whether he's sure he's born again.

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Now, Dr. White also brought up, for example, Galatians 5 21. Those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

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The most natural understanding of that passage as I see it is to suggest that it's talking about an inheritance and the inheritance is ruling with Christ in the life to come.

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As we're going to talk in the next hour, Dr. White, as far as I can tell, does not have a place in his theology for any meaningful view of eternal rewards and of ruling with Christ as a reward that only some believers will receive.

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He said the word of God is the means of regeneration. Now, I'd like to figure this out and unfortunately this first hour is leaving.

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If the word of God is the means by which we're born again, how can logically we be born again before we have the means?

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Does anybody here understand that? If the means is the word of God and yet I'm born again before I come in contact with the word of God, how is that possible, logically or temporally?

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It's not possible and I would like an explanation to that which we haven't heard. Now, he said dead and sins doesn't mean total inability.

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Okay, this is new to me because in your debate or your discussion on the radio with Dave Hunt, he used the illustration of people on the bottom of a deep well and the

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Calvinist holds the rope down toward them and gets it within 50 feet of them but the poor person can't grab the rope.

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And Dr. White said, no, let me explain what the illustration should be. You've got a bunch of corpses at the bottom of the well and they can't reach up, they can't see, they can't hear, they can't do anything.

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Why do we use Lazarus as an example, by the way? Could Lazarus move? Could he hear? Could he see?

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Maybe that's why I get confused about your view of spiritual deadness because you use Lazarus in the illustration, you use dead people at the bottom.

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I've heard you use the morgue illustration. You say people in the morgue are what spiritual deadness is. Now I didn't deny that necros and necro are ever used literally in the

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New Testament. Sure they are. They're used literally of physical death and they're used literally of spiritual death.

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But the point is when you're talking about spiritual death you have to ask the question, what is it saying about it?

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I said spiritual death does not mean no spiritual sensitivity which now it sounds like Dr.

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White's wanting to say that's fine. This is getting more confusing all the time because if the word of God is the means and the spirit can guide

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Nicodemus then how is he like a dead man at the bottom of the well? How is he like Lazarus in the tomb? I don't understand.

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Now I thought it was interesting. I mentioned John 4 .14 and I said how do you understand this where Jesus says you've got to drink the living water to spring up into everlasting life.

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We didn't hear anything about John 4 .14. I would think that would be the first verse you would want to mention. Also John 5 .25.

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The time is coming and now is when the dead will hear the voice of the son of God and those who hear will live. Why no comment on John 5 .25?

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Maybe because it doesn't fit your position. Also we had for example John 6 .44.

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I thought it was interesting how in your presentation of John 6 .44 you jumped to a conclusion and practiced eisegesis reading your theology into the text.

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John 6 .44 says no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day.

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And he said in this presentation that all who are drawn are raised up. And I've heard him in previous debates say this.

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Do you notice that's not what the text says? The text says all who come who are raised up. And this is very clear from John 6 .35.

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If you follow the whole context Dr. White it says he who comes to me will never hunger and he who believes in me will never thirst.

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And by the way it isn't coming my whole life long. It's the moment I come to him I have everlasting life. The moment

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I drink the living water I have eternal life. And so when he says in John 6 .44 no one who comes to me unless the father sent me draws him that's fine.

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And my view is the father is drawing everyone. How do you understand John 16 .9 .10 .11? Which says the

01:00:02

Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. Is the Holy Spirit doing that with every single person on earth or not?

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Is he convicting the world of sin, righteousness and judgment? And John 12 when I am lifted up I will draw all men unto me.

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Is he doing that or is Jesus not doing that? Now I would agree not all are drawn equally but that's different than saying there's anyone on planet earth that God is not drawing.

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God is drawing all. And this verse doesn't say anything about God's not drawing all. You've drawn that inference from finding who he will raise up connected to the wrong phrase.

01:00:35

Acts 16 .14 I thought was interesting. You mentioned Acts 16 .14 and you didn't fully bring out your point but let me see if I can understand what you're saying in Acts 16 .14.

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Acts 16 .14 says God opened Lydia's heart, the Lord opened her heart, to heal her by Paul.

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Now you didn't say it but you implied that opening the heart means regeneration. Where in scripture is opening the heart regeneration?

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Can you give me one text anywhere in scripture where opening the heart is regeneration? You said well why would anybody need some work of the spirit to believe if we're all able to believe?

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The answer is simple, 2 Corinthians 4 .4. The God of this world is blinding the hearts and minds of people and God has to take the blinders off before anyone can believe.

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Now obviously people believe in the spiritual truth. 1 Corinthians 12 .3 says no one can say Jesus is

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Lord except by the Holy Spirit, doesn't it? Do you know unbelievers who believe that Jesus is

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Lord? I do. All kinds of people who would say they're working their way to heaven but they believe Jesus is

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Lord. That doesn't give them eternal life. The text is saying if anyone believes Jesus is

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Lord and confesses that it's because the Holy Spirit has worked in their life to demonstrate that. The spirit is at work in the universe working in the lives of people and he's working in this planet except for the astronauts to bring people to faith in Christ.

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Now the point was brought up which I thought was a canard about the idea of choosing to believe. If you've read my book

01:02:01

Confident in Christ I specifically say in the first chapter in Saving Faith that faith is not a choice. I guess you missed that.

01:02:08

And what I say is that we are either convinced or not convinced. You said you can see that this projector is on.

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That's right. That's what faith is. To be convinced something is true. And Gordon Clark in his book

01:02:19

Faith and Saving Faith demonstrated that. You've heard the old line notitia, census, fiducia. That's understanding, acceptance, and trust.

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Gordon Clark points out that fiducia is a synonym for faith. And so when you say understanding, acceptance, and trust, that's like saying understanding, acceptance, and faith.

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You can't say that a part of something is the whole thing. It'd be like saying a car is made up of glass, metal, and automobile.

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Well you can't do that because an automobile is a car. Faith is fiducia. And so when he says that you're choosing to believe, no you don't choose to believe.

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The evidence either convinces you or it doesn't. And if the evidence convinces you, believe. Well why is it that everybody doesn't believe in Jesus for eternal life?

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Because Satan is blinding people. But the beauty of scripture is God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him,

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Hebrews 11 .6. And so Cornelius, and I'd love you to discuss Cornelius, we're told his prayers ascended to God and his alms ascended to God.

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Now you didn't discuss Cornelius, but Cornelius is a person who comes to faith as a result of his prayers and his alms that led

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God to send an angel to him to tell him for Simon Peter. How do we explain this text? And if your view of spiritual deadness goes that far, then it seems to me you're agreeing that faith precedes regeneration logically, not the other way around.

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But I don't believe that anyone chooses to believe. We're either convinced or not convinced. We're either not convinced by the evidence.

01:03:46

And if an unbeliever is seeking God, ultimately God is going to guide them to the truth, and ultimately he will take away the blinders.

01:03:54

Now I certainly agree in light of Acts 16 .14 that God has to do a work, the

01:03:59

Spirit has to do a work before anyone will believe the saving message. But that work is opening the heart. The work is not regeneration.

01:04:06

He takes the blinders away and we get it. So we've all had that Eureka experience if we're born again. But you see, the sad thing is when you define faith as commitment, obedience, turning from sins, yieldness, perseverance, et cetera, then you don't believe the saving message.

01:04:22

Because the saving message is he who believes in me has everlasting life, and it's very clear what Jesus means.

01:04:27

I'd love a discussion also of pastuo hati. Pastuo hati in Greek means believe that.

01:04:33

Remember he mentioned 1 John 5 .1? 1 John 5 .1 says about the fact that the one who believes that Jesus is the

01:04:40

Christ has been born of God. It's interesting that he's ignored the whole point of the verse, which the point of 1

01:04:47

John 5 .1 is that if a person believes that Jesus is the Christ, they've been born of God.

01:04:53

In fact, the perfect could be translated is born of God. The simple explanation there is look at John 4 .14

01:04:59

and 5 .25. He's not contradicting what he said elsewhere. What he's saying is you find a believer, you find a born again person.

01:05:06

In fact, the New King James translates that whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. He's not emphasizing the abiding result, the present result of the faith which is eternal life.

01:05:48

I may need some help getting the...

01:06:01

No, I mean for the PowerPoint. In this hour we're following up on what we discussed in the first hour and it's the question of perseverance.

01:06:33

And my view is perseverance is not the evidence of saving faith and works are not an indispensable element of true faith.

01:06:42

And I think this is where the rubber meets the road. I feel that there are five tragic assurance related results of a faulty view of faith.

01:06:51

When you deal with what Dr. White calls a lordship salvation view of faith, you lead to these tragic results.

01:07:02

I'm not sure what that was doing in there. Faulty faith is not the evidence of Faulty faith acts as assurance.

01:07:08

The Lord Jesus said, he who believes in me has everlasting life. And he also said, and as I mentioned to you,

01:07:17

I ask people, do you believe in Jesus? And they will say yes. And then when I say, well, what do you have?

01:07:24

And we go into this dance. And the reason is they don't believe it. But Dr. White, as I mentioned, is not related to that problem because he will say,

01:07:32

I don't know if I truly believe. I'd love for him in this hour to tell us he's absolutely sure that he has everlasting life and that he knows he's going to persevere.

01:07:41

Because if perseverance is the proof of eternal life, then he cannot know this.

01:07:47

And besides, the reason why he has to go with this is because faith is unknowable. If Jesus says, he who believes in me has everlasting life and I know

01:07:54

I believe in him, then I know I have everlasting life. But if faith is unknowable, then I can't know

01:07:59

I have everlasting life by faith because faith is like fropple. And what is fropple? Nobody knows what fropple is so we don't know if we've done it.

01:08:08

Well, you may say Dr. White is arguing in this very debate that good works suggest regeneration. Yes, he is.

01:08:14

Good works suggest regeneration. They don't prove it because he would have to admit that no one's works are perfect and everyone,

01:08:20

Romans 3 .23 says, all have sinned and present tense fall short of the glory of God.

01:08:26

That's me, that's Dr. White, that's every one of us in the audience, that's every person on planet earth. We all fall short every day of the glory of God.

01:08:35

And so, if your basis of assurance is works, you can't have it. Now, some people would say, but wait a minute, he says perseverance is the proof of eternal life.

01:08:45

Perseverance is the proof of regeneration. Yes, but the proof of perseverance comes when you die. I've completed two marathons and guess what?

01:08:53

They don't give you the finisher's medal until you cross the finish line at 26 miles, 385 yards.

01:08:59

If you stop before that, you don't get it. Well, perseverance in the Christian life, and Dr. White, correct me if I'm wrong, is to the very end of my life, till the death of the rapture, right?

01:09:09

So, therefore, if perseverance is the only proof of regeneration, then guess when you find out where you're going once you get there?

01:09:17

Now, I suppose if you hold Dr. White's position, if you die and end up in hell, at least you can say, well, thank God I didn't lose it,

01:09:23

I just never had it in the first place. But I don't see that as real comforting. I don't think of Dr.

01:09:30

White's position as tulip, I think of it as daisy. You know, he loves me, he loves me not, he loves me, he loves me not.

01:09:36

You hope you end your life on he loves me. You hope on the day you die that you're going to make it into the kingdom of God.

01:09:41

This is a tragic misunderstanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now, Dr. White, when he began the debate, said this is not a debate about peripheral issues, this is a debate about the gospel, that's absolutely right.

01:09:53

He's chosen to call it lordship salvation and talk about me being non -lordship. Well, that's exactly what the issue is.

01:10:01

Secondly, his faulty faith misinterprets assurance passages. In John 11, 26,

01:10:06

Jesus said to Martha, he who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

01:10:14

In verse 27, she says, yes, Lord, I believe. I believe you are the Christ, the Son of God who is to come into the world.

01:10:20

Notice, he doesn't ask her about commitment or works or perseverance. She doesn't mention commitment or works or perseverance.

01:10:28

She simply says that she believes what he says. Now, I would like to have

01:10:33

Dr. White explain this text, because she says she believes and he doesn't correct her.

01:10:38

Shouldn't she say, I hope I believe, but maybe I have temporary faith? Maybe I have miracle faith?

01:10:44

Maybe I have spurious faith? Well, I see some work in the spirit of my life, but I've not died. Maybe I could be wrong.

01:10:51

And so, why don't we see all of that here? Why is she saying she's convinced that some thing is true?

01:10:58

John 4, 10 through 14. In this passage, Jesus told the woman at the well that the one who drinks physical water will thirst again and again and again.

01:11:07

But the one who drinks the water that he gives, it will spring up into him into everlasting life and that person will never, ever thirst again.

01:11:16

The living water is not eternal life. It's the message that springs up into everlasting life.

01:11:22

Nothing is said in John 4, 14 about perseverance or repentance, about good works, about anything else, not repentance or anything.

01:11:30

In fact, it's interesting that one drink that is believing and you have everlasting life.

01:11:36

It's not everlasting believing as Dr. White implied in the last one. And we aren't even told if the woman at the well stopped living with the man she was living with.

01:11:44

Wouldn't that be crucial to the story if we're told, if everybody who's born again perseveres in good works and we've got this woman coming to faith in Jesus as the

01:11:53

Messiah, getting eternal life and yet we aren't told? How about 1 John 5, 9 through 13?

01:11:59

We're going to discuss this more in a moment but let me say for the beginning that John says we can know.

01:12:05

These things I've written that you may know that you have everlasting life. Yet in Dr. White's view you really can't know that you have everlasting life.

01:12:12

And by the way, 1 John 5, 9 through 13, in those verses the way we know we have everlasting life is believing the testimony of God, receiving the testimony of God.

01:12:21

Nothing about our works, nothing about our commitment, nothing about anything else. How about Luke 8, 5, through 15?

01:12:27

Does this passage contain three unregenerate and one regenerate or one unregenerate and three regenerate?

01:12:33

This is the parable of the four soils. We're told if you look at your text in Luke chapter 8, verses 6, 7 and 8, we have a repeated phrase.

01:12:41

It sprang up. It sprang up. It sprang up. In the pro -life movement for plants, we like to say plant life begins at germination.

01:12:51

Well, by the time it springs up, life has long since begun. Are we not right? Well, by the time it sprang up, life has

01:12:56

How could you possibly say the seed which is the word of God has not germinated in the second soil?

01:13:02

And doesn't Jesus himself say that the ones on the rock are those who when they hear receive the word with joy and they believe for a while?

01:13:12

Well, they believe. And the message they believe is the same word in verse 12 that says Satan snatches away the seed lest they should believe and be saved.

01:13:20

Well, according to Dr. White's view, Satan shouldn't be so concerned about snatching away the seed lest they should believe and be saved because he can snatch it away any time before death and they don't make it.

01:13:30

They prove they never really had it in the first place. It's interesting also,

01:13:36

I'd like Dr. White to comment when he says who receives the word with joy, the word is dekomai in Greek.

01:13:41

The same word used in 1 Corinthians 2 .14 where it says the natural man does not receive the things of the spirit of God.

01:13:48

So do you hold that the second soil is regenerate? If so, you believe that apostasy is possible for a regenerate person and that a person keeps it eternal life even if they fall away.

01:14:00

Now third, let's keep moving along here. Luke 8 .13, there's a paraphrase.

01:14:06

This is the radio interview I was mentioning with Dave Hunt. Faulty faith misses why we should persevere.

01:14:13

Why is the reason we should persevere? Paul says run in such a way that you may obtain the prize. In Greek it's grabeion.

01:14:19

A prize is not a free gift. John 4 .10, if you knew the gift of God. Ephesians 2 .9,

01:14:25

it's the gift of God, not of works of God. Yet for Dr. White, if I understand him correctly, getting into the kingdom is the reward he's seeking.

01:14:34

If I understand the way you understand this is, if you do not persevere, you're not going to get into the kingdom. Is that correct or not correct?

01:14:40

We'd like to hear this. If you do not persevere, are you going to heaven or hell? And do you know if you're going to persevere?

01:14:47

Now Dr. White has no room in his theology for any meaningful doctrine of eternal rewards because in his view all believers persevere because of what he defines believers.

01:14:56

Therefore, how could you have any special reward? I would say that what 1 Corinthians 9 .24 -27 talking about is the imperishable crown of ruling with Christ.

01:15:05

And I don't have time to develop it, but look at Luke 19 .11 -27, 2 Timothy 2 .11

01:15:10

-13, Revelation 2 .26 and Revelation 3 .21, or go to our website at faithalone .org

01:15:17

and take a look at the many articles we have on rewards. Fourth, faulty faith misunderstands 1

01:15:22

John. We have three times in 1 John where we're going to read, I write or I have written these things to you, 2 .1,

01:15:30

2 .26 and 5 .13. All three refer to the paragraph in which they're dealing. 2 .1

01:15:35

looks at 1 .5 -10, 2 .26 looks at 2 .18 -25, 5 .13

01:15:40

looks at 5 .6 -13 or particularly 5 .9 -13. Only 1 .3 and 4 uses the first person plural.

01:15:48

These things we have written to you. And he says in the preceding verse in verse three, we declare to you that you may have fellowship with the

01:15:56

God and with his son, the Lord Jesus Christ. The purpose of 1

01:16:01

John is fellowship with God. Purpose statements come first in letters in the first century.

01:16:07

And it wouldn't make sense to say that 1 .3 and 4 is the purpose of 1 .1 through 4 because 1 and 2 just simply lead into verses 3 and 4.

01:16:15

He's giving the purpose for the whole book. Here's a faulty faith paraphrase of 5 .13.

01:16:21

These things I've written to you who are totally committed to following Jesus for your whole life are the purpose of 5 .13.

01:16:31

Now I would like Dr. White to explain what 5 .13 means, 1 John 5 .13 in light of his understanding of perseverance.

01:16:39

Dr. White on Sola Fide, remember that sounds too easy. God must demand more of me. Yes, he actually demands all of you.

01:16:44

That's what faith is really all about. I'm giving you a direct quote here. I transcribed the message.

01:16:50

Now if you'd like to question whether I've quoted you correctly, I can send you the message. But the point is you haven't denied that you said this.

01:16:56

Are you saying this was a misstatement? Is this not your view on faith? Faulty faith assurance.

01:17:02

The major premise is 1 John tells you how you can know you have eternal life. Minor premise, the tests in 1

01:17:08

John show you it's impossible to be sure you have eternal life. Conclusion, God wants you to know you have eternal life but not to be sure you have eternal life.

01:17:17

That doesn't make sense to me. But that's Dr. White's position as I understand it. 5. Faulty faith is confused about God as Father.

01:17:24

Dr. White is surely a good parent, I don't question that. He surely wants his children to be certain that they are secure in his family.

01:17:31

And yet Dr. White believes that God doesn't want his children to be secure that they to be certain that they are secure in his family.

01:17:38

He believes that God wants his children to fear hell throughout their lives. That seems to me to be a rather odd view of God.

01:17:45

Why is it that God has a lower view of what his children need than a human parent?

01:17:52

What human parent would leave their children dangling and wondering whether they're truly a member of the family?

01:17:58

I can't think of any that would do that. And you also have the idea that insecurity is somehow producing godliness.

01:18:05

You got the idea that Dr. White somehow believes then that if a person does not know with certainty that they are going to persevere, they don't know with certainty they have eternal life, then therefore this is going to somehow help them.

01:18:17

This is going to somehow keep them walking well in the Christian life. But wouldn't the sure knowledge that we are eternally secure produce a wonderful sense of love and gratitude?

01:18:27

I can tell you I came out of a group, Dr. White, that's much more extreme in Lordship Salvation than what you promote.

01:18:33

I was in a group that came out of Oklahoma, went to California in the 30s during the

01:18:39

Dust Bowl, and the man taught Sinless Perfection. He said there was a little window of time when you could be born again, one or two weeks.

01:18:45

If you missed it, too bad, you're going to hell. If you happened to be good enough to be born again then, you had to live a sinless life.

01:18:51

He said one sin would send you to hell and you couldn't get it back. Any sin of any magnitude and you'd go to hell.

01:18:58

A friend came to me after Expo 72 in Dallas from the cult, but he had become a believer.

01:19:04

He came to me and said, Bob, is it possible your view of the gospel is wrong? When he did that, I was challenged and I was touched.

01:19:11

He invited me to a meeting of Campus Crusade for Christ at USC. I didn't want to go because I thought these people are going to be cults.

01:19:17

Of course, I was in a high school. I didn't want to be a hyper -cult. I went and I thought, God protect me if there's error here.

01:19:23

They proclaimed the grace of God and I heard it. Just by believing in Jesus, you have eternal life. I thought that's too easy.

01:19:29

Just by believing in Jesus, you'd have eternal life. I contacted Campus Crusade at my campus,

01:19:35

University of California Irvine, Go Anteaters. I began meeting with the guy and for about six weeks, he kept showing me verses.

01:19:42

Finally, it hit me. Just by faith in Jesus, I had eternal life. You know what? Instead of that motivating me to go out and live like the devil, that motivated me to give up being pre -med and to go into the ministry and to serve on staff with Crusade for four years, then to go to Dallas Seminary, pastor, be a chaplain in a hospital, to teach in two

01:20:01

Bible colleges, and then to found Grace Evangelical Society. Knowing for sure I have everlasting life is the foundation of my entire life.

01:20:08

I don't know how anybody here can go through a day not knowing for sure you have eternal life. If you're telling me you're sitting here today and you believe in hell and you believe in eternal torment and you don't know where you're going, that's the sad thing.

01:20:21

That's where Dr. White's theology leads. That's where this hour's discussion leads. If you believe that good works are the measure of your assurance, you don't have assurance.

01:20:31

Now, we can define assurance, if Dr. White wants, as some degree of probability, but the apostle

01:20:37

John says, these things I've written to you, believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have everlasting life. Jesus says, he who lives and believes in me shall never die.

01:20:45

Do you believe this? Yes, Lord, I believe and by the way, at that moment, she knew she would never die because she just said she believed the statement he said.

01:20:54

So, my suggestion to each of us is, if you're going to learn to fly, go to a school where they're not crashing the planes and if you want to learn about assurance, go to a place that's telling you how you can know with certainty you have eternal life.

01:21:08

If the message you're hearing does not tell you how you can be sure you have everlasting life, shouldn't you question it?

01:21:15

Shouldn't you say, this doesn't fit? Because there are all kinds of people in scripture who know with certainty they have everlasting life.

01:21:23

Thank you. Once again,

01:22:15

I'm afraid that a large portion of what we've heard about what I allegedly believe,

01:22:21

I've never stated and none of my writings support, so I hope you'll actually listen to what

01:22:26

I actually believe as I present it to you. That would be very helpful, I think, in the course of our debate this evening.

01:22:32

This discussion flows of necessity from the which came before, for it is

01:22:37

God's purpose to redeem a particular people, for if it is God's purpose to redeem a particular people in Christ, who are zealous for good deeds, and that they as a people are to be conformed to his image and grow in his grace and knowledge, and it follows that their faith must be of a supernatural character, for it must endure to the end.

01:22:56

It cannot simply be the recognition that there is a projector up there.

01:23:01

It must go beyond that to meet the purposes that God himself has laid out in scripture. Now, I have said before that the historic reformed understanding of faith is that while it is something the redeemed do, it is also something they are enabled to do through regeneration.

01:23:18

This gift of faith involves the whole of the new creature. It involves both the heart, the mind, and the will.

01:23:26

It positively clings to Christ, and negatively, through repentance, the elect turn from their sins to the

01:23:34

Savior. It involves the whole of I have said already that the doctrine of sola fide, as we have it in history, is not what

01:23:43

Dr. Wilkins is presenting this evening. Here is some evidence of that in the formula of Concord number three.

01:23:50

The negative number five says we repudiate that faith is such a confidence in the obedience of Christ as can abide and even have a being in that man who is void of true repentance, but contrary to conscience, perseveres in sins.

01:24:05

That is repudiated by the formula of Concord. The Heidelberg Catechism question 87 says, can they then not be saved who do not turn to God from their unthankful, impenitent life?

01:24:20

And the Heidelberg Catechism's response is, by no means. By no means.

01:24:29

Calvin the Institute said, for since pardon and forgiveness are offered by the preaching of the gospel, in order that the sinner delivered from the tyranny of Satan, the yoke of sin and the miserable bondage of iniquity may pass into the kingdom of God, it is certain that no man can embrace the grace of the gospel without retaking himself from the errors of his former life into the right path and making it his whole study to practice repentance.

01:24:53

That is being repudiated by my opponent this evening. The Great Reformation truth of sola fide did not mean and does not mean faith in abstract, faith as mere intellectual assent, faith separated from the work of the spirit and regeneration, faith without repentance, faith without a new nature, a new heart, or a desire for holiness.

01:25:16

If you think that sola fide, my friend, you have been misled and deceived.

01:25:22

A friend of mine, C. Ryan Jenkins, has defined genuine saving faith in these words. Genuine saving faith involves a knowledge of the truth of the gospel, an inward conviction thereof, and a commitment of oneself and one's eternal destiny into the care of Christ, and Christ alone, for eternal salvation.

01:25:39

Saving faith is not simply a mental endeavor, but rather an action of the heart, Romans 10, 9, as one enters into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

01:25:48

Saving faith involves not only understanding and agreeing with the facts of the gospel, but it includes the essential aspect of establishing a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as one rests upon him alone for eternal salvation.

01:26:03

And it surely seems appropriate to quote B. B. Warfield in our current context on this subject.

01:26:08

He wrote in reference to one of the key passages I will address in a moment, James chapter 2, quote, it was to James that it fell to rebuke the

01:26:16

Jewish tendency to conceive the faith which was pleasing to Jehovah as a mere intellectual acquiescence in his being and claims when imported into the church and made to do duty as the faith of our

01:26:27

Lord Jesus Christ, the glory. In short, James is not depreciating faith.

01:26:32

Which him too, it is faith that is reckoned unto righteousness. Though only such a faith as shows itself in works can be so reckoned because a faith which does not come to fruitage in works is dead, not existent.

01:26:46

He is rather deepening the idea of faith and insisting that it includes in its very conception something more than an odious intellectual ascent.

01:26:56

B. B. Warfield would not agree with my opponent this evening. It is the teaching of the vast body of reformed writers from Calvin to Westminster to Owen, John Owen, to the

01:27:08

Puritans, to Edwards, Spurgeon, Warfield, Sproul, and Piper that the biblical concept of faith is so rich, so deep, and so much a part of the nature of the new creation that the one who truly believes will as a result flee from sin, turn, repent, and bring forth fruits consistent with their changed nature resulting in quote unquote good works.

01:27:31

Where do we see this? Well, I would submit we see it all over the place. It is just that some positions have defined certain traditions and say, well, if it's talking about that, it's only talking about disciples.

01:27:43

And you can be a Christian and not a disciple. Or it's a special kind of Christian. There's always a way around anything, but I would like to simply trust the

01:27:50

Holy Spirit of God will guide you in his word. We've looked at Ephesians chapter two, but we need to look at all of it because it says, for by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves is a gift of God, not as a result of works that no one may boast for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which

01:28:09

God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Note the relationship. If you are saved by grace, you have been saved by it for a purpose.

01:28:18

All who are created in Christ Jesus are created for good works and it is God's purpose that they walk in them.

01:28:24

This is not for just a super group of Christians or special disciples, but if Ephesians two, eight through nine is true of someone, and it is true of every believer, then verse ten is true of every believer as well.

01:28:39

Romans chapter eight tells us, for all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God. The Spirit himself testifies to our spirit that we are children of God and of children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.

01:28:54

Everyone who is justified in Romans eight is glorified, but we're told here, oh, this is a different kind of glorification.

01:29:01

This is just where you get certain kinds of rewards, you get to reign and rule and reign with Christ, and there will be all sorts of folks who will not suffer with Jesus.

01:29:08

They are not led by the Spirit of God, but they are still going to get eternal life. I submit to you the apostle Paul knew nothing of such a theology no one in church history has until just recently.

01:29:20

For the grace of God, Titus chapter two tells us, has appeared bringing salvation to all men instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great

01:29:33

God and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed and to purify for himself a people for his own possession zealous for good deeds.

01:29:44

There is no reason to see the grace here as bringing only the possibility of salvation. This is the grace that saves and the all men would be all kinds of men as it would be naturally be read in the original context see revelation five, nine through ten.

01:29:58

If one is saved by grace, one is taught by that grace to deny ungodliness and worldly desires.

01:30:04

The grace that saves teaches every person it saves to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age.

01:30:11

Christ did not give himself to make us savable. Christ gave himself for his people to redeem us from every lawless deed not to let us remain under their power and to purify for himself.

01:30:23

Purity is not an option for the one saved by Jesus, a people for his own possession. If you are not in Christ, you are not saved.

01:30:31

Zealous for good deeds. The person who walks away and rejoins the world is not zealous for good deeds and is therefore not one of the redeemed.

01:30:42

The entire book of first John is evidence in favor of my position at this point.

01:30:47

Consider just a few thoughts from this book. Listen to what John says. If we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

01:30:58

Do liars inherit eternal life, I wonder? By this we know that we have come to know him.

01:31:05

How would the non - lordship position answer by this we know? Because I said I believe it once and that's it, right?

01:31:13

What does John say? By this we know that we have come to know him. If we keep his commandments. The one who says

01:31:18

I have come to know him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him but whoever keeps his word in him the love of God has been perfected.

01:31:30

Those are not my words, friends. Those are the inspired words of the Holy Spirit of God. The one who says he is in the light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.

01:31:42

Oh, I thought all you had to do was just simply intellectually assent to the propositions of the gospel. You have eternal life.

01:31:47

Go ahead and hate your brother. Non -lordship writers, I don't know if Dr. Wilkins takes this point.

01:31:53

I'm not going to ascribe things to him that I don't know he believes. At least I'm not going to do that tonight. He's done that to me repeatedly.

01:32:00

Other non -lordship writers actually say that the list of vices in 1 Corinthians chapter 6, some of you are homosexual, some of you are adulterers, some of you are murderers, actually say those people will get eternal life because they were believers.

01:32:14

What an amazing twisting of scripture to come up with such a concept. If anyone loves the world, the love of the

01:32:21

Father is not in him. Oh, but they can still have eternal life even though the love of the Father is not in them. This is the promise which he himself has made to us, eternal life.

01:32:29

Here's that phrase, eternal life. These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you, no one who abides in him sins, no one who sins has seen him or knows him.

01:32:44

Now we know those are present tenses. We know we're talking about a life of sin here, a practicing of sin.

01:32:49

Doesn't that mean repentance is a part of this? Seems to be. Little children, make sure no one deceives you.

01:32:56

The one who practices righteousness is righteous just as he is righteous. The one who practices sin is of the devil.

01:33:04

I don't know how much clearer the Holy Spirit could make the revelation of his truth.

01:33:11

We continue on. By this the children of God, you want to know how we know? Here's what the

01:33:17

Holy Spirit gives to us. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious. Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God nor the one who does not love his brother.

01:33:28

He's not of God. He has no eternal life. He's not of God. We know that we have passed out of death into life.

01:33:37

Somehow what I know and what I believe about my eternal security and so on and so forth has been somehow discerned without my even saying a word about it.

01:33:44

You want to know what the Bible says? We know that we have passed out of death into life because we love the brethren.

01:33:50

Wow, that sounds like something I do. He who does not love, what? Will get eternal life.

01:33:57

No, that's not what it says. Abides in death. The one who keeps his commandments abides in him and he in him we know by this that he abides in us by the spirit whom he has given to us.

01:34:12

Hardly any time left at all, but very quickly. James chapter 2. Just a few observations in three minutes.

01:34:19

What uses it? My brethren, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works, can that faith save him?

01:34:26

The construction in the Greek says the answer is no. That faith, that faith that has no evidence of existence, that faith that cannot say see the spirit of God has regenerated me.

01:34:39

The spirit of God has changed me. I have a desire for Christ. I follow after him.

01:34:44

I don't want to do what pains my Savior. That's the work of the spirit of God in the heart of his redeemed people.

01:34:53

God does not save people for no purpose. The Holy Spirit does not come in and, oh, I tried to convict of sin, but I just couldn't do it.

01:35:00

I don't believe in a gospel like that. I believe in the triune gospel, a gospel founded upon the decree of the

01:35:06

Heavenly Father, the work of the Son, and the application of the Spirit glorifying the Trinity, and God does not fail in the redemption of his people, and his purpose is to create a people zealous for good deeds.

01:35:18

Can that faith that has no evidence of his existence save him? The biblical answer is no, and the answers that have been come up, people have come up with.

01:35:30

James chapter 2, from the anti -lordship position, are amazing.

01:35:35

They have been cited as examples, for example, by leading exegetes as the greatest examples of eisegesis they've ever seen.

01:35:47

James chapter 2, verses 17 through 18. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead being by itself, but some may well say you have faith and I have works, show me your faith without the works and I will show you my faith by my works.

01:36:00

This is the demonstration before men of our faith. James' point is simple.

01:36:07

If it's true, saving faith, it will be able to prove its existence.

01:36:12

I can say I have faith all I want. The only way you can see that I have faith is when

01:36:18

I live consistently in light of what I say. And when my words are inconsistent with what

01:36:24

I do, then you have a right to question the validity of my words. And that's what we see here.

01:36:32

Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead. And there's actually, some people have said, yeah, well if it's dead it must have been alive once.

01:36:42

Really? That's what James' point is here. That's what James is trying to exhort people to.

01:36:49

Verse 14. Can that faith save? No. Who tonight has presented to you a faith that has no works?

01:36:59

And who has presented to you a faith that is the result of the work of the Spirit of God in your heart? I leave that to you to determine.

01:37:07

Thank you. Yeah, let me just go to the black screen in that way.

01:37:30

Alright, in my rebuttal I'd like to discuss some of the passages that were brought up. Before I do, let me mention if you listened to Dr.

01:37:36

White's last remarks, and maybe if you listened to it on tape, you'll notice he spent a lot of time talking about what was said in Reformed Confessions, what was said by many

01:37:44

Reformed theologians. And, frankly, I don't care. Because the issue to me is sola scriptura.

01:37:51

What do the Scriptures say? And it really doesn't matter to me if every single person on planet

01:37:56

Earth held Dr. White's position, I'm standing here, because this is what I see the Word of God says, and until I'm convinced otherwise,

01:38:04

I'm standing on the Word of God, and it doesn't matter how many theologians are on the other side, how many confessions or anything else.

01:38:11

If you have your Bible, look at 1 John 2 and verse 3. Dr. White says, by this we know that we know him if we keep his commandments.

01:38:19

Well, he assumes that know him means that by this we know we have eternal life. That's not what the text says. That's what we find in 5 .13.

01:38:26

What we have here is, by this we know that we know him. This term, knowing someone, is a matter of intimacy.

01:38:32

In a book on fellowship, it makes sense that he would tell us that it's one thing to have fellowship with God, 1

01:38:37

John 1 .9, confessing our sins and walking in openness before God, but to know God, I must advance, and I must keep his commandments.

01:38:46

And so the person who has become what Paul calls a spiritual man, that man is one who knows

01:38:52

God in their experience, or her experience. And that's what John is talking about here. That's all the references to the commandments.

01:39:00

And by the way, notice verse 9. He who says he's in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness until now.

01:39:05

I'd like Dr. White to explain why his brother jumps up there. Does an unbeliever have brothers? Does an unregenerate person have spiritual brothers, and who are they?

01:39:14

The Apostle John is talking about brothers in Christ, and he's saying if a believer does not love other believers, he's walking in the sphere of darkness.

01:39:22

He's walking in the sphere of death. How about 1 John 3 .9? This, Dr. White didn't tell us, is one of the key crux passages in the

01:39:31

New Testament with at least nine different major interpretations. And he assumed his interpretation, the idea that habitual sin is the idea here, is the correct understanding.

01:39:41

Actually, that's only one of many understandings. I take the absolute position, what the verse says is, whoever has been born of God does not sin.

01:39:49

That is, I never sin as an expression of the new birth. Sin is always a result of the flesh.

01:39:55

I never sin. Notice verse 6. In verse 5, it says, and in him there is no sin.

01:40:00

How much sin is in Jesus? A little or none? None. Then verse 6 says, whoever abides in him does not sin.

01:40:07

A little or none? None. The point is, there is no sin in Jesus as long as we abide in him, we don't sin.

01:40:14

Sin is always an expression of non -abiding. And so when he comes to verse 9 and he says, he who has been born of God does not sin, he's talking about the fact that we never sin as an expression of the new age, for his seed remains in him, and he cannot sin.

01:40:27

I notice Dr. White didn't explain that. He cannot sin. It's not that he cannot sin habitually, he cannot sin at all.

01:40:33

Because he's not born of God. Because he has been born of God. The new birth means that that born of God part of me is perfect.

01:40:40

And as Needham said in his book Birthright, we should see ourselves at the core of our being as born -again people who eternally are never going to sin again and we should live in light of who we really are.

01:40:51

How about 1 John 3 .14? We know that we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren.

01:40:57

He who does not love his brother abides in death. Notice you didn't explain, Dr. White, about why it says his brother.

01:41:03

Does an unborn regenerate person have a brother, a spiritual brother? And also, of course, the question is, when it says we've passed from death to life, in a book on fellowship, it makes sense that he would say we've passed from the sphere of death to life in our experience because of the fact that we love the brethren.

01:41:22

You know, I can't tell you how many people have gone to their graves fearing they were going to hell because they took this verse as an assurance verse.

01:41:29

R .T. Kendall did his study on Calvin and English Calvinism to 1649. And he said that as he studied the

01:41:35

Puritan divines, the leaders of the Puritan branch of the Reformation, he said almost to a man, they went to their graves desperate that they were going to hell.

01:41:44

I noticed Dr. White did not tell us in the first time whether he's sure he has eternal life, whether he's certain that he knows he's going to persevere.

01:41:51

I'd love to hear this in the next time. He's got some more time. Let's hear him say that because his theology says he can't know that.

01:41:57

And R .T. Kendall says they went to their graves looking at their lives and saying I don't see enough fruit. I mentioned this to Joel Beakey at the

01:42:04

Evangelical Theological Society a few years ago and he said that's just not true. He says I'm in the

01:42:11

Reformed Church, the Dutch Reformed Church of America, and he said one of our ministers was on his deathbed and he was saying, you know,

01:42:17

I'm desperate. I think I'm going to hell. Because I look at my life, I don't see the kind of fruit I'd expect to see.

01:42:23

And I'm listening there thinking that contradicts Kendall's point. And he said one of the other ministers came to him and says, but do you love the brethren?

01:42:30

And he got a smile on his face and says, oh thank you. I wonder how long that smile lasted. I mean, even in your marriage, do you always love your spouse?

01:42:38

Do you always love your children? Do you always love everyone in your church? Do you always love everyone who drives on the highway?

01:42:44

I mean, well, in Dallas it's particularly challenging. But my point is this.

01:42:50

If you're looking to see if you're born again by your love for the brethren, then you don't know if you're born again. Because no matter how much you love the brethren, it's not perfect.

01:42:59

Also, we were told James 2 .14. Let's take a look there. I'd love to have Dr. White explain James to us.

01:43:06

The term sozo occurs five times in James, the verb to save. I'd like Dr. White to explain the five uses.

01:43:12

In 1 .21, it talks about a born -again person receiving the implanted word that's able to save his psuche, his life.

01:43:19

In 5 .19 and 20, if you turn one of the believers in your church from sin, you save a life from death.

01:43:26

In 4 .12, God is able to save and destroy. In 5 .15, the prayer of faith. And in 2 .14,

01:43:34

faith cannot save him, can it? The answer is no, it cannot. But notice what it says. What does it profit or what good is it, what use is it?

01:43:41

Notice the end of verse 16. Did you notice the inclusio? Inclusio is where you bookend a passage.

01:43:46

It starts with what good is it, teta phalos in Greek, and it has the same exact thing in the end of verse 16.

01:43:52

Do you see that in your Bible? What does it profit? What good is it? What use is it? Why does he begin and end with that?

01:43:58

Because here's the point. If you see a brother or sister in need, and you say be filled and be warm, but you don't give them what's necessary for the body,

01:44:06

A, that doesn't profit me because God is going to discipline me. I'm not going to be saved from his judgment. B, it doesn't benefit the other person because the other person goes away cold and hungry.

01:44:16

In fact, this all pivots off of James 2 .12. So speak and so do as those who are going to be judged by the law of liberty.

01:44:22

It's not just talk a good game. Do it. The other problem Dr. White has is he assumes James 2 .14

01:44:28

is talking about saving faith. The illustration isn't talking about saving faith. The illustration is talking about someone who believes it's more blessed to give than receive.

01:44:37

But they don't do what that belief should follow up with by actually giving.

01:44:43

And so any time, any commandment God gives us that I believe, if God says love your wife as Christ loved the church,

01:44:48

I believe that, but I don't do it, then that's dead. And when it says faith without works is dead,

01:44:53

Dr. White should also point out it's not it occurs in verse 20 and it occurs again in verse 26. James wants us to get it.

01:44:59

What does it mean? In light of verses 14 and 17, it's real clear. What does it profit? Faith without works is unprofitable.

01:45:07

Now, Dr. White, I assume takes that verse to mean faith without works isn't faith. Logically, that's impossible.

01:45:13

A cannot be non -A. Faith without works is unproductive. It's like saying a car without gas won't do what it's designed to do.

01:45:21

You don't trash the car, you put gas in it. If you've got faith and you're not going to put it to work, get to work.

01:45:27

Stop talking the game and start living the Christian life because God's going to discipline you. We were also told about repentance.

01:45:35

I wrote my doctoral dissertation on repentance at Dallas Seminary, spent a year and a half working on it, and I've since repented of my views on repentance.

01:45:42

So, I have to condense my remarks here, but let me say, Dr. White, I have a question for you.

01:45:48

The only evangelistic book in Scripture is the Gospel of John. How many times do Metanoia and Metania, oh, the words repent, repent, how many times does repentance occur in John's Gospel?

01:45:58

Zero. How do we explain that? Now, Paul's defense of his Gospel is in what book in the

01:46:03

New Testament? What's his charter for Christian liberty? Is it not Galatians? Guess how many times he mentions repentance in the book of Galatians?

01:46:12

Zero. Why does he never mention repentance when he's defending his Gospel all through Galatians, a man who's justified by faith apart from works?

01:46:20

I find it funny that when Dr. White is quoting Romans 8, 17 and says, we have to suffer with Christ in order to be glorified with him, he charges me with being a synergist.

01:46:30

Who is the one that says we have to cooperate with God in order to get to heaven? He mocks me because he says all a person has to do is believe in Jesus for eternal life.

01:46:38

That's right. And he says that his view doesn't have any works in it, even though he's got to persevere, he's got to be afraid he's going to hell, he's got to do good works.

01:46:47

If his faith was without works, he's going to hell. Is that what James 2 .14 means? You know, the problem that you have in this whole debate is the scriptures aren't with you.

01:46:58

If the scriptures were with you, it would be a lot easier to bring out your points. But the truth is the Bible is real clear and people always have a problem with this.

01:47:06

The idea that simply by believing in Jesus we have eternal life seems too easy. So we've got to get the heart in there, we've got to get the will in there, we've got to get the works in there, we've got to get the perseverance in there.

01:47:17

I'm here to say my Savior loves me so much that when I believed in him, I'm eternally secure and there's nothing

01:47:22

I can do to lose it. And I'm not living the Christian life so I can keep it. I'm living the Christian life because I love

01:47:28

Jesus and I'm ready to die for him and I'm ready to die for his gospel. And when you say these things, it grieves me greatly.

01:47:34

Thank you. Ten minutes is certainly not long enough to even begin to respond to all the things that have been said.

01:48:08

I simply must point out that it does not seem that Reformed Theology is taught at Dallas Theological Seminary because of the many misunderstandings and basic mischaracterizations that have been presented this evening.

01:48:22

I think if you're here and you're Reformed, you've already heard that over and over and over again. We have heard that if you just eat once of Jesus, that's all.

01:48:30

You'll never hunger again. Isn't it interesting? I was talking about John chapter 6 verses 52 and following when

01:48:35

Jesus talks about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. I wonder why he uses the present ongoing tense there for eating and drinking.

01:48:43

That's because a person who's been born again is always finding in Christ his only spiritual nourishment.

01:48:50

I was accused that I had engaged in eisegesis in John chapter 6 verse 44 because I had pointed out the fact that the one who is drawn is the one who is raised up.

01:49:01

I would simply invite anyone to take your Greek New Testament. If you can read it, take the time to look at the text yourself, you will discover that it is very, very clear the eisegesis is taking place by saying, oh no, that's the one who comes.

01:49:14

That's not in 644. The eisegesis is the verb is halkusei auton, that's the hymn, and I will raise auton, hymn up in the last day.

01:49:26

It's eisegesis for me to say that the one who is drawn is the one raised up? No, it is eisegesis to try to lead you astray on something as simple as that particular grammatical form.

01:49:37

We heard Dr. Wilkins say that unbelievers can believe that Jesus is Lord. Really?

01:49:43

That really, I think, sums things up, folks. If you're here this evening and your faith is the same as an unbeliever walking out here and might go, oh yeah, okay,

01:49:53

I can believe Jesus is Lord. That's not the word of the Holy Spirit of God. That's not a person who's been raised to spiritual life, who's been united with Christ, who has a passion for Christ.

01:50:04

Oh yeah, I believe Jesus is Lord. No, the unbeliever does not believe that. That's the whole point of the debate this evening.

01:50:12

If an unbeliever, we were told, and I quote this, if an unbeliever is seeking God, God will take off the blinders.

01:50:19

What happened to there is no God seeker? What happened to there is none who seek after God?

01:50:26

I told you at the beginning, did I not? This is fundamentally a difference between a monergist and a synergist.

01:50:31

Between one who believes in the freedom of God and salvation and one who believes that God makes men savable, but it's up to them to decide who is going to be saved.

01:50:41

Now, I could sit here and say, we have not heard an answer to this. We have not heard, I heard all, you notice,

01:50:46

I'm going to trust you to take the notes, listen to the tape, and you find out how many of the things

01:50:52

I've presented have not been responded to and let you think about that. I don't have any need to be sitting here going, well,

01:50:57

I didn't hear him talk about this down here in this verse or I didn't hear him talk about this. I'll allow you to do that. I want to have respect for you at that point.

01:51:05

We were told that this faith, anyone can have it, that this, in 1

01:51:11

John, all this is about is about spiritual men. All those passages were about spiritual men.

01:51:19

Remember 1 John 2 .19? They went out from us so that it might be made manifest they were not truly of us.

01:51:25

What does it mean to be truly of us? Does it mean to be truly of the spiritual men? Is that what John was talking about? Or is walking out into death and darkness and a denial of the incarnation of Jesus Christ indicative of a lost soul, not a person who is going to have eternal life in the future?

01:51:44

I would suggest to you that's the case. I would suggest to you that the parable of the soils is very, very clear.

01:51:49

Jesus said when he talked about the vine and the branches that the individual who bears fruit proves he is his disciple.

01:51:55

Now I don't believe in disciple -less Christianity. I don't believe that Paul believed it or Jesus believed it or any of the disciples believed that you can be in Christ and not one of his disciples.

01:52:05

There were lots of disciples who walked away. But to be in Christ is to be in that vine.

01:52:11

It's to bear fruit. And all of those others, what Jesus is doing in that parable is warning the apostles of what they're going to see.

01:52:18

There's going to be people who get really excited and they show up at church and they're really excited for a while and then they're gone.

01:52:24

Does that mean God's work has failed? No. God's work has not failed. We cannot see what that work looks like immediately in someone.

01:52:33

We can be deceived. We can be deceived. Are we questioning that? And I certainly hope that we are not questioning that we, in fact, can be deceived about what other people are doing.

01:52:45

Classic example of the errors in hermeneutics, and I have a master's thesis sitting over on my table there by C.

01:52:53

Ryan Jenkins where he went through the information, for example, on repentance, demonstrated that all the lexical sources stand against Dr.

01:53:01

Wilkin and his conclusions, and demonstrated that there's a tremendous amount of special pleading involved there. But here's another tremendous example of this faulty hermeneutics that's involved in non -lordship.

01:53:12

He says this term decamia occurs in the parable of soils, and it also occurs over in 1

01:53:18

Corinthians 2. Well, it's a basic fundamental truth of hermeneutics that a word does not necessarily mean the same thing in every context, and authors can use words in different ways.

01:53:32

Just simply pointing out that decamia is used in 1 Corinthians 2, and it's also used in a parable, is a horrible example of a misuse of hermeneutics to then make some theological point based upon something like that.

01:53:47

Now, we heard another, I think, very classic false argument. Dr. White started off with all these theologians and all these confessions,

01:53:56

I don't care, sola scriptura. Well, no one has defended sola scriptura against more voracious opponents of sola scriptura than I have.

01:54:06

I believe in sola scriptura, but you all know why I raised that issue, didn't I? Don't you? You know why.

01:54:12

I wasn't trying to say, see, this proves I'm right. What this proves is that I stand with the

01:54:19

Reformation, and if sola fide is defined historically in any meaningful fashion, it is not what has been presented to you tonight by Dr.

01:54:28

Wilkin. Dr. Wilkin has admitted his view of sola fide is not historical, it's not what the

01:54:34

Reformers believed, it's not what Protestants have believed, it has, in fact, been condemned over and over again by those very groups.

01:54:44

Now, does that make it wrong? No. Does that make it something other than what our churches have believed down through the centuries?

01:54:52

Yes. That was the whole point that I was making, is to demonstrate that if you, for example, if you're here tonight and you're not on either side, let's say you're a

01:55:01

Roman Catholic, I have many, many times in my debates with Roman Catholics had Roman Catholics misrepresent my position as if it had some bearing on what

01:55:10

Dr. Wilkin believes, and I have repudiated them and said, no, that's not the gospel, that's not what Protestants believe, and it's not.

01:55:18

It is a different view. You have to judge it on that basis. I have every intention,

01:55:24

I love going to the scriptures, I would love to sit down with John chapter 6 and walk through each one of these passages and point out that it's the one coming, not the one who just comes one time, tips his hat.

01:55:36

It's the one coming who has eternal life. It's the one believing. It's the one looking.

01:55:41

Those are present tenses. They're not heiress. I'd love to go through John chapter 2 and read

01:55:49

Dr. Wilkin's article where he says those people in John chapter 2 who believed in Jesus and Jesus did not entrust himself to them, using the same root, bestio, he did not entrust himself to them.

01:56:00

They're going to heaven. They're just secret disciples. My friend, if Jesus has not entrusted himself to you, you are lost.

01:56:09

He is the only source of eternal life and if Jesus has not entrusted himself to you, you don't have eternal life.

01:56:18

We've been told that I cannot believe in assurance. And why not?

01:56:24

Well, because of my view of assurance. My view of assurance is as long as you have simply assented to the gospel, anything else you do doesn't matter, but I can assure you you have eternal life.

01:56:35

That is a very empty assurance. I've seen the homes wrecked by that.

01:56:42

I've seen the lives destroyed by that. They're not willing to be disciplined by the church.

01:56:49

Hey, the pastor told me, I shook his hand, I walked down there, I read the four spiritual eyes, I shook the pastor's hand,

01:56:55

I'm saved. I don't have to worry about the fact I'm cheating on my wife because I ain't one of them disciples guys. I'm not one of them super spiritual people.

01:57:01

I'm not going for that. I ain't going for the big prize. But they said, you believed, right?

01:57:08

This is what you believed. You're saved. You've got eternal life. No, you don't. You've been deceived.

01:57:16

You've been deceived. The Spirit of God does not apply the work of Christ to a life in vain.

01:57:28

You see how it all keeps coming back? It all keeps coming back to, is there an eternal decree? Is Christ redeeming a people for his own possessions, zealous for good deeds?

01:57:39

Or is he dependent upon us? Two very, very different visions.

01:57:46

I hope you will take the time to get the tapes, slow them down and listen. Slow them down and listen.

01:57:53

Because I'm very confident of what you'll find out when you do. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we now come to the portion of our debate in which there are questions from you.

01:58:06

As you can, I think, intuitively grasp, and cannot get to all of them,

01:58:12

I'm sure the gentleman will remain around for a little while after the debate. Fortunately, many of the questions have come together so I can ask one.

01:58:20

I trust you will see your question even though it will not be your exact wording. I would like, gentlemen, if we could, to keep the answers short, circumspect, and to the point so we can capture some time.

01:58:33

And I will... If you want to provide a time limit. Well, let's just say a minute and a half. 90 seconds.

01:58:42

Let us begin with Dr. Wilkins. The question is, if God draws everyone,

01:58:48

John 6 .4, and if God's Word never failed, Isaiah 55, 10, 11, then

01:58:54

God is either impotent and His Word ineffective, since not all are saved, or He is a liar because He is not drawing everyone which means correct.

01:59:05

Well, my view would be that when it says that the text in John 6 .44 doesn't tell us who

01:59:11

God draws. It doesn't say how many He draws, what percentage. I said from John 12 .32,

01:59:17

from John 6 .9 -11, from John 1 .9, and from many other texts we know that He is drawing all.

01:59:27

Not all equal, but He is drawing all. And that doesn't mean that God is ineffective. His Word never returns void.

01:59:33

The point is, God is drawing all. I thought it was interesting when we were asked about Romans 3 .11, no one seeks

01:59:38

God but one and all one. Dr. White, in his own position, said that the Holy Spirit was drawing

01:59:44

Nicodemus to seek Jesus in John 3. Did I miss that? I'd love for you to explain that.

01:59:49

Also, in Acts 10, I believe you were saying Cornelius came because God was drawing him and that God was seeking him before he was regenerated.

01:59:58

So how can an unregenerated person seek God in your view? My view of Romans 3 .11 is that it's saying no one seeks

02:00:05

God left to his own initiative. Acts 17 .27 says that God is granted to all men that they might grope after God if perchance they might find

02:00:14

Him and He is not far from all of us. God has granted every person on planet Earth the opportunity to respond.

02:00:20

Even the person who has never heard the name of Jesus, if they respond to the light they have, the Macedonian vision shows he can bring someone with a saving message.

02:00:28

And I think this is a major difference between our position because in your position, the vast majority of humanity is doomed from the eternity past and they have no opportunity to respond to God's drawing or anything else.

02:00:40

Thank you. Dr. White, if God conditioned salvation on man's acceptance, does this in any way limit

02:00:50

God's sovereignty? May a sovereign God limit Himself in this way Well, the actual question should be does the

02:00:59

Word of God reveal that God has limited Himself and His sovereignty in this way? If that's just simply a theoretical question saying could a sovereign

02:01:08

God do something in a different way, theoretically God can do whatever He wants. The question is does

02:01:14

God's sovereignty as revealed in Scripture tell us that He has limited Himself to human response?

02:01:20

And the answer is no. The passage that was just mentioned, John 6, verse 44, is written before John 12, verse 32.

02:01:27

John 12, verse 32 is in a completely different context. To read it back is classic Isaac Jesus. In John 6 we are told all that the

02:01:33

Father gives me will come to me. The giving of the Father precedes the coming of anyone to Christ.

02:01:39

It is because I have been given by the Father in eternity, the Son, that I have come to Him in faith and I continue coming to Him in faith.

02:01:45

That's why when the Jews grumble, Jesus responds to their unbelief by saying do not grumble amongst yourselves.

02:01:51

No man is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, that's the verb, draws him, and I will raise him up.

02:02:00

The same Him. We have to have proven to us exegetically that the Him who is raised up is different than the

02:02:07

Him who is drawn. There is no grammatical or contextual reason in light of what is said in verse 45 of Solomon and before that to come to that conclusion.

02:02:15

But that's what we've had thrown out there and it is simply not a proper exegetical interpretation. Thank you.

02:02:25

Dr. Bookman. Referencing James 19, don't demons believe or are they saved?

02:02:32

Yeah, the question is James 2, 19 and the text says the demons, you do well, the demons believe and tremble.

02:02:40

I've heard this question many times and it amazes me that people keep on asking it. The question is, is this a true or false statement?

02:02:47

Do demons believe in monotheism? Yes or no? Of course they do. Do they really believe in monotheism or is it just fake faith in monotheism?

02:02:54

They really believe in monotheism. In fact, do demons believe in the Gospel? Yes they do because we're told that Satan snatches away the seed lest they should believe and be saved.

02:03:04

Now that doesn't prove that all of his minions believe the Gospel. You see, the Gospel is not that Jesus died for Satan and fallen angels and demons and if they believe in Him they have everlasting life.

02:03:15

The Gospel is, you remember John 11, 26 He who lives and believes in Him shall never die. You have to be a living human being.

02:03:22

There are going to be a lot of people I believe who come to faith in Jesus after they're dead. Too bad. They're going to, after a while, look around and say there's nobody here who believed in faith alone.

02:03:31

All kinds of religious people but they're not here. And I didn't believe that. And after a while they're going to come most likely to believe the saving message but you have to be alive and you have to believe it.

02:03:40

And so do the demons believe that God is one? Sure. And they tremble to show they believe. There's not a problem there.

02:03:46

That's not some sort of argument that there's something called demon faith that's less than real faith. Thank you.

02:03:53

Dr. White, can you elaborate on what Christ either actually or potentially accomplished on the cross as it relates to both regeneration and perseverance?

02:04:07

You've got 90 seconds. Jesus entered into the holy place

02:04:14

Romans, Hebrews 9 tells us. Having obtained eternal redemption not because of the possibility of not having made us savable.

02:04:22

He entered in having obtained eternal redemption and because I believe in substitutionary atonement the wrath due to my sin all of it fell upon my substitute in my place.

02:04:34

And I cannot therefore come under the condemnation of God because that wrath has already been fully propitiated in Jesus Christ which is why

02:04:43

I believe in particular redemption because if you believe that Jesus Christ died on behalf of every person who will be in hell then you believe that Jesus Christ bore the wrath that was due to their sin in his body upon the tree that didn't save anybody and now the sinner is in hell undergoing the penalty of wrath for the very same sin himself called double jeopardy.

02:05:08

I do not believe in that. I believe that Christ's death on behalf of his elect people is perfect and it provides everything that is needed for the

02:05:16

Holy Spirit to dwell in my life. The Holy Spirit dwells in me. I still experience sin.

02:05:21

How can that be? Because I have imputed to me the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ and that comes from his perfect work upon the cross of Calvary.

02:05:30

Thank you. Dr. Wilkins, please explain what Jesus meant in Matthew 7 -19. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

02:05:38

And again, Matthew 7 -21 -23. Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord shall

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I have a bikini of heaven but you does a will of my Father in heaven. You know from John 6 -39 -40 that the will of the

02:06:10

Father is that all who believe in the Son will be raised up on the last day and all will be saved. If you study this expression the will of the

02:06:16

Father every time it refers to people it is always believing in Jesus. Notice the people who don't get in at the

02:06:22

Great White Throne Judgment. It says, Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord have you not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, done many wonders in your name.

02:06:30

I can imagine Dr. White saying this. I can't imagine me saying this. Because if God asked me why should you get into the kingdom

02:06:36

I would say I believe in Jesus and it is purely that. My works have nothing to do with it. Not my works before not my works after.

02:06:43

They don't prove anything they don't show anything. And so I can understand Dr. White would say this.

02:06:49

I can't understand me saying this. He said, I will declare to you I never knew you depart from me you who practice the law of sin. Notice I never knew you.

02:06:55

Not I knew you and you lost sin but I never knew you. Why? Because you didn't do the will of the Father. Dr. Stanley has a nice sermon on this in which he shows that clearly anybody that knows the

02:07:05

Gospel of John and the book of Galatians knows the will of the Father concerning the Son is that we believe in Him for eternal life.

02:07:12

Thank you. Dr. White Given the premise

02:07:18

God freely chose to save and elect people based upon this description how would you handle the problem texts 2

02:07:28

Peter 3 .9 and 1 Timothy 2 .4 Why don't we just pick one of those because one of them is difficult enough but it's good to acknowledge let's say 2

02:07:36

Peter 3 .9 not knowing that any should vary. Well let me just direct you to a chapter in a book that I wrote in response to Norman Geisler entitled

02:07:46

The Potter's Freedom there was an entire chapter called The Bing Three and it deals with 1 Timothy 2 .4

02:07:51

2 Peter 3 .9 and the map 23 .7 so it deals with each of those passages I'll tell you each one of them

02:07:59

Matthew chapter 23 the passage there is talking about God's desire to gather in the ministry of Christ the children of the leaders of Jerusalem that was a passage against the leaders of Jerusalem and it's not saying well you wouldn't and therefore

02:08:14

I couldn't 1 Timothy 2 .4 read the passages around it's talking about kinds of men rulers and others he says

02:08:21

Jesus Christ is a mediator between God and men if you want to make men they're all men then Jesus Christ mediates them which means

02:08:27

Christ is a mediator for people who fail to save that doesn't make any sense and 2 Peter 3 .9 follow the pronouns different people do take different views on this even

02:08:35

C. Ryan Jenkins does in his thesis here I take the view when you follow the pronouns he's talking about they and us and he's talking to the elector and saying why has the parousia been delayed it has been delayed so God can gather in all of his elect people whom he desires none of them to perish and since God told none of them to perish none of them will perish there is no basis in the text for assuming that that means all men and therefore

02:08:57

God has this unfulfilled desire that he fails to provide in regards to election please explain your understanding of the relationship between justification and sanctification are they inextricably linked together in light of Romans 6 .2

02:09:15

which says but now that you have been set free from sin and become slaves of God that leads you to sanctification and in the end to eternal life ok

02:09:30

I see the relationship between justification and sanctification is that justification opens the way to sanctification unless we are declared righteous we have no opportunity to become righteous in our experience that's what we're called to do is to become righteous in our experience to be holy people you should be holy as I am holy but that cannot occur before I'm justified that's why this whole issue is so important because if I don't know if I'm justified if I don't know

02:09:56

I have eternal life I have no grounds upon which to live the Christian life I need to know

02:10:02

I have everlasting life and I know I have this and I know as Dr. White still not said that he's sure he has everlasting life he's still not said that he's going to persevere and he's sure he's going to persevere

02:10:11

I would love to hear you say that because it would contradict everything you said tonight and the point is that the way well anyway

02:10:19

I've lost the whole point so Dr. White I believe that I've been regenerated by the grace of God since the beginning of my life

02:10:46

I have life and I know that I have everlasting life and I know that I have everlasting life and I that everlasting life and I that I have everlasting and I know that I have everlasting life and I I have everlasting life and I know

02:11:26

I have everlasting life and I know that I have everlasting life and I that everlasting life and I know that I have everlasting life and I that I have everlasting life and I I have everlasting life and I know that I have everlasting life and I know that I have and I that I have everlasting life and I know that I have everlasting life and I know that I have everlasting life and I know that I have everlasting life and I or ecclesiology, would you please elaborate?

02:13:29

Well, I really believe that if you do passionately in your heart recognize that you are utterly undone, you are completely unable to do anything before God, that God in his sovereignty and eternity past set his love upon you for no reason whatsoever in yourself, but solely of his own free will, of his own mercy, of his own grace.

02:13:54

When you recognize the holiness of God in your own sin, you cannot help but be changed. It changes the way you view

02:14:01

God, it changes the way you view yourself, and then it changes the way you view the church. Because all of a sudden, all those passages that talk about the body of Christ and serving

02:14:11

Christ and being called into his fellowship come alive, and you are amazed that though you are undeserving of salvation,

02:14:20

God has called you into a place where you can actually serve Jesus Christ and his church.

02:14:25

And you will want to be in a church where his gospel is honored consistently in the worship and in the proclamation.

02:14:34

And I can tell you, I thank God that since 1989, I have been in a very small fellowship with my fellow elder now,

02:14:43

Don Fry, who has been there for over 30 years now, who consistently ministers the word of God, and I find that to be the greatest benefit that God has given to me in helping me to be like Christ.

02:14:56

And so what I'm saying is, be consistent between what you believe about the gospel and the worship that flows therefrom.

02:15:02

Thank you. It's now time for summary statements, gentlemen, and let's begin with Dr.

02:15:09

White. Five minutes, please. We don't wanna go over time.

02:15:41

My friends, this evening has gone by very, very quickly. I said at the beginning, it is my hope and my desire that this will begin in you a journey, an odyssey, a study, that you'll be driven into the word of God.

02:16:01

I'm not going to say that what has happened this evening has been exactly what

02:16:06

I expected. I would like to hope that given the many mischaracterizations and misrepresentations of my position, that at least

02:16:18

I, in representing Dr. Wilkins' position, sought to honor you, the audience, in accurately representing what he believes and teaches, and when

02:16:28

I don't know what he believes, I indicated that to you, rather than just simply attributing things to him as he's attributed to me that have nothing to do with what

02:16:35

I actually believe. The issue this evening is extremely important, and it's not just for theologians.

02:16:45

You, the individual, now, are responsible for what you have heard. Now, you may say, it went too fast.

02:16:51

I don't know exactly what I did here. Well, that's why we recorded it. I think if you took the time to be here this evening,

02:16:58

I'd really like to challenge you. I don't care who you get it from, but get it. Go back over it with an open

02:17:04

Bible. Go back over it with Bible works running on your computer. Check the facts.

02:17:11

Check the citations. Throw out anything that was just simply give and take on an emotional level, and listen to what the word of God says.

02:17:25

How does God save sinful men and women? I guess I should be more politically correct. We are on a university campus.

02:17:33

How does he do it? Is it merely something he throws out there? It's an option.

02:17:39

I've made it possible. You've been justified, so now it's possible for you to be sanctified.

02:17:45

By the way, I would say very firmly, everyone who is justified by necessity will be sanctified.

02:17:51

They are part and parcel. They are distinguished, but they cannot be separated from one another.

02:17:58

How does God save? Does he save freely? Does he save by his own sovereignty?

02:18:05

Does he save to his own glory? Or are we to believe that the father from eternity has decreed to try to save?

02:18:15

I'm not sure exactly what Dr. Wilkins believes here, because he says not everyone's drawn equally. I don't know what that means. I don't know what that means.

02:18:23

But he's tried, he's decreed to try to save. The son has died to provide perfect redemption for every single individual.

02:18:31

The spirit comes and tries to bring application, but the triune

02:18:37

God fails all at the altar of the almighty will of the sinner man. I don't believe that.

02:18:46

I don't see that in scripture. I know Dr. Wilkins came out of a very strong, as he described it, cultic type group.

02:18:57

Well, there's something called a pendulum. And I've known many a person who's come out of something very, and swings all the way over to the other side, and I would suggest that that's what's happened here, that we have

02:19:11

John 3 .16 and a certain understanding of John that becomes the centerpiece through which everything else in scripture is to be viewed.

02:19:22

Take your Bible and check out what has been said this evening. Why do

02:19:29

I have assurance in my salvation this evening? Is it because I've decided to redefine faith down to a mere mental ascent so that anybody can have it?

02:19:42

I don't believe that's faith. We've seen that that's not. Why do I have assurance this evening?

02:19:48

Assurance is of the very nature of regeneration. I love Christ. I love his people.

02:19:56

Is my knowledge of my own heart perfect? Oh, well, I guess if perfection is the standard, I guess that's sort of part of the whole argument here, isn't it?

02:20:05

I'm awful thankful that as I have walked with the Lord these many years, I've been able to grow in the grace and knowledge of the

02:20:13

Lord Jesus Christ. If you can grow in grace, what does that mean? Does that mean it's imperfect at any point in time?

02:20:20

No, and if I can grow in my assurance, does that mean it's somehow less than real assurance? Of course not.

02:20:29

You see, my confidence tonight, my friends, is not in me. It's in a perfect city.

02:20:35

It's in a Savior who saves perfectly. Thank you. Is this five minutes?

02:20:46

Let me just reset this. Oh, hang on one sec.

02:20:55

I've got to get this on, or I'll be talking into my watch again.

02:21:05

Okay. I would still ask the question, is he sure? I take it from his last response, the answer is no, because he said his knowledge is not perfect, and he grows in assurance.

02:21:17

You can't grow in certainty. I'm before you to say, I'm sure I have everlasting life. The second thing

02:21:22

I would like to say is, if he's correct, I'm not born again, and I admit that. I don't believe his view of the good news.

02:21:29

I don't believe his view of faith, and if he's right, I'm not born again. Now, good news for him is, if I'm right, he doesn't believe the gospel, but he may have, by the pendulum effect, once believed the saving message and swung over to an extreme view of work salvation, and so he could be born again, an apostate, but he certainly today does not believe the gospel, if what

02:21:48

I'm saying is true. Third, when he pointed out that someone says, oh, I shook hands with the pastor, or I prayed the prayer and the four spiritual laws, or I walked an aisle, none of that is what

02:21:59

I said or suggest. What I suggest faith is, as he's pointed out, is simply being convinced that Jesus is telling the truth when he says, he who believes in me has everlasting life.

02:22:09

I'm reminded of the atheist teen who loved nature. Now, why atheists often love nature, I don't know, but he went out camping by himself, and he was in an area that was very remote, all by himself, and he got up before sun up, and he went to this beautiful vista to watch the sun come up, and as the sun was coming up over the horizon, suddenly the ground beneath him gave way, and he fell over the cliff going on a 1 ,000 -foot precipice, and he wildly threw his arms up, and he grabbed a branch, and he was about 10 meters below the lip of the canyon, 30 feet down, it was straight up, no holds, nothing, no way he could possibly survive, and as this atheist young man is hanging there, he began to take stock, and he said, you know, maybe

02:22:51

I'm not an atheist, maybe I'm an agnostic, and so he said, is there somebody up there?

02:22:58

And this voice came down, I'm here, and he said, what should I do? Let go of the branch.

02:23:06

Is anybody else up there? Well, if the young man had let go, he would have found himself back on the top of the canyon wall, but because he didn't let go, because he sought a second opinion, he ultimately fell to his death.

02:23:24

God has told us to let go of our works, to let go of our commitment, to let go of our perseverance, and simply to believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life, but like the young man who's hanging there and God says, let go, it seems like it couldn't possibly work.

02:23:48

Well, guess what? If God says it'll work, it'll work.

02:23:56

After all, it's his gospel, it's his good news.

02:24:02

He tells us that we need to believe in Jesus for everlasting life.

02:24:08

Now, what Dr. White has told us tonight is that we need to yield everything to Jesus Christ, give him our whole heart, turn from our sins, live a life that's faithful to the end, and then maybe we'll make it if we prove that we've done it well enough.

02:24:25

He's hanging on the branch, and he's telling you to keep hanging on the branch. I urge

02:24:31

Dr. White and those who agree with him to let go of the branch.

02:24:39

Give up on your synergistic view of kingdom entrance. It's all a work of God.

02:24:47

Faith is the passive reception of the bread of life.

02:24:53

He who comes to me will never hunger. He who believes in me will never thirst.

02:25:02

If you haven't let go yet, I urge you to do so. It's a matter of life and death.

02:25:12

So don't look for a second opinion. Simply take Jesus at his word.