The Miki-Melt-Down

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Metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded

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Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll -free across the

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United States it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. And good morning, still broadcasting from a location where you can actually say

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Muhammad was not a prophet of God without immediately being shot by an AK -47.

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Yes indeed, the number of those places is dwindling fast, it does seem, across the world.

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If you dare apply the standards of Scripture that determine who is and who is not a prophet, if you apply them to Muhammad, the freedom that you have to do so, it's dwindling quickly.

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No two ways about it. And the fearful people in Western culture, which is a thoroughly secularized culture, it is, you got to realize that the

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Muslims think that this is a Islam versus Christianity issue, they just don't get the fact that the

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West is a thoroughly secularized culture. It is not a Christian culture.

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I mentioned when I went to Italy last year how secular Italy is, how you see remnants of churches all over the place, but on a

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Sunday morning nobody's there, that the church has little impact on the culture, especially northern Italy.

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Very secular. In Europe, less than 1%, 99 % people just, you know, has no impact on their lives at all.

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And so it's a very secular culture, but they think that this is Christianity versus Islam.

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And the people in the secularized West, of course, are deathly afraid of these people.

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And you have every reason to be deathly afraid, I suppose, if you have no eternal hope, you have nothing you actually believe in, and you can't even begin to understand how someone can be so fanatical about something that they would strap explosives around their body and blow themselves up just to kill you along with.

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That doesn't make any sense to you. And so therefore, they just want you to be quiet.

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Let's just appease, appease, appease, don't say anything. And that's why people have been a little bit,

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I think, surprised at the blog articles that I've posted this week, and my call for Benedict XVI to not apologize for daring, daring to quote a six or seven hundred year old conversation, one which took place in the midst of war and the siege of Constantinople, for crying out loud.

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But as I said in the blog articles, 99 .999 % of all those people throwing firebombs, shooting nuns, burning effigies, and marching in the streets have no clue what was actually said, have no clue what the context was, are completely ignorant of these things, and are completely under the control of corrupt imams, corrupt religious leaders who are actually also, remember, political leaders.

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You know, separation of churches today is considered to be one of the great heresies of the West, according to Sayyid Qutb and those who follow him, including

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Osama bin Laden. And so they, you know, they're under the control, they're rabble, and they're just under the control of these corrupt people who are simply promoting their own political agendas and their own personal power over the people and things like that.

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And it is an ugly thing to be watching. There is no two ways about it.

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But the fact of the matter is Benedict XVI had every right to stand in a

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German university and deliver an academic lecture. I have a feeling, I haven't looked into this, but I've got a feeling that even the book he was quoting from, at least the sense

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I got as I was reading the article, was that it had been done by someone associated with the university.

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So maybe that was sort of a way of, you know, giving them kudos and recognizing their historical work or whatever it might be, even if it wasn't.

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The fact of the matter is he used a relevant example, and if people cannot allow for context and intent and meaning, then they're irrational.

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They're utterly beyond reason, and we should not be concerned, we should be concerned about our safety, but we should not be concerned on an intellectual level with pandering to people who are not rational.

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That's the end of civilization, folks. When rationality ends, education ends, thought ends, dialogue ends, it all comes to a screeching halt at the end of the barrel of an

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AK -47. And that's what we're facing in these places. So it's absolutely incredible what is going on in the world today, and it's sad to observe.

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But at least in our context, we can still have dialogue and debate and discussion, and while we have that freedom, we need to utilize that freedom to the best of our abilities.

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Pray for those who are persecuted, pray for those who are under attack. You know, I was thinking as I was driving in this morning that as the head of the

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Roman Catholic Communion, the Pope would have every ground to complain about the treatment of his own people in Islamic countries.

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In fact, later on, if we have time, we've got some interesting phone calls today, but if we have time, I have a link, a video.

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Now I know playing videos over a webcast is sort of silly. I suppose

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I could have just put the link on the blog, then y 'all could have watched it. But it is fascinating to watch and listen to the lack of justice meted out to Christians in Indonesia.

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Of course, one of the most horrific things I ever watched years ago, back when videos were pretty unusual online, was a video of a

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Christian in Indonesia literally being chopped to death by an angry mob. It was just a horrible thing, one of the things

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I wish I hadn't seen, and it sticks in your mind. You can't get rid of that kind of an image, to be certain.

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But I do have that queued up, and I have another Ahmed Didat clip as well, if we get around to it.

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Whether we will or not is hard to say. 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number this past week.

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Let me see here, scroll back up here a little bit. I believe on the 14th, that would have been last

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Thursday, I believe. I posted an email that was sent through the email system of our website that I responded to on the blog.

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This was from Mickey, and the letter said, My dearest James, I met your sister not long ago and was intrigued to find out who her brother is.

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Incidentally, when I was young and stupid and didn't have a proper religious education, I used to listen to you and read your books and articles.

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And then, asterisks around then, I read the early fathers and Eusebius and discovered the real truth, that you don't, and never have, have a clue what the truth is.

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The truth, love, is Catholic, since that is the New Testament Church, and the sooner you quit with the arrogant, misological pride and shenanigans, the better off you will be.

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So my actual purpose for writing, I just wanted you to know that I just finished reading your site section on Catholicism and, minus the egregious errors and misrepresentations which you present as facts,

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I found it to be uproariously entertaining, not very informative, but blissfully funny for all of its acerbic ranting, blowhardness, and scriptural cluelessness.

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The reason your audience is getting smaller, James, is because they are listening to God, and he doesn't like his lambs being poisoned with lies like yours.

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If your audience is as small and smaller as you say it is, it's because that is his will. Praise God for small favors.

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Anyway, thanks for so much for the laughs, it's been very entertaining. This site is as funny to read as a

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Watchtower magazine. I'm in tears and my jaw aches. In his grace and praying for your conversion,

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Mickey. And so I wrote back on the blog, I linked to two articles.

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One was a discussion of some statements made by Carl Keating about early church fathers. The other was the article that Peter Stravinska certainly should have read before we did the purgatory debate on Romulo Cuta Est, Causa Finita Est, as far as Augustine is concerned,

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Sermon 131, and invited Mickey to call on the last dividing line.

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And so we had exchanged, I think over the weekend, I finally heard back by email. We've exchanged some emails, and Mickey has taken the time to call the program today, and I appreciate that.

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So welcome, Mickey. I'm looking forward to what you have to say in regards to your letter. Well, praise be

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Jesus Christ now and forever, and thank you very much. First of all, I want to say I really do truly thank you for the post that you made yesterday and the day before regarding the truth of the speech that the

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Holy Father gave at Regensburg, because there aren't a lot of people who have a whole sense of what it is that he was getting at.

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And we as Catholics are very hopeful, too, that he's not going to extend an apology for anything that he said, because in fact the

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Muslim world is now proving what he said is true. And so we're very happy to have seen that you went that far in being able to extend that conciliation to him.

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Well, it's not a matter of, it's just simply a matter of being truthful about what someone has said.

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I mean, Cardinal Ratzinger, as an authority when he wrote most of his books, is a very scholarly writer.

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He was speaking to other scholars in his own language, and anyone who would read what he said outside of the context in which he said it is simply being grossly dishonest.

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And I don't appreciate when that's done to me, and I would very much invite anyone to demonstrate when

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I've done that to somebody else. And so it's simple consistency, and I think you'd agree with me that the vast majority of those rioting in streets and throwing firebombs have never read a word that he said.

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They wouldn't have any context in which to put it. They're the pawns of other people, and I would agree with Jimmy Akin, even though I would disagree with Jimmy Akin, who identified it as a faux pas on Benedict's part.

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I don't believe it was a faux pas at all. In fact, I would encourage him to be stronger in speaking to issues of the persecutions of non -Muslim peoples in Muslim lands.

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But I would agree with him that I think there's a far greater danger of an attempt on Benedict's life than there was at almost any point in time on John Paul II.

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And I hope, to be honest with you, I hope he doesn't go to Turkey. I really hope he doesn't go to Turkey, because I'm sorry, if someone wants to kill you, they're going to find a way to do it.

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Well, and that is true, and in all honesty, I have to admit that I have talked to friends of mine and other apologists over the last few days about this issue, and quite frankly,

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I hope he does go to Turkey. Number one, because I don't think that the Holy Father should be cowed by anybody.

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His calling and his office is to proclaim the gospel and proclaim it without fear, and not to be afraid to go into enemy territories and be able to proclaim the gospel without fear.

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And so I hope that he does go to Turkey, and I hope that his secretaries and those around him who counsel him are not afraid of doing that.

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Well, if it's God's will that he dies, then so be it. But at the same time,

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Islam would have a really hard time if they did assassinate the Holy Father for the simple fact that in doing so, they make him a martyr.

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Well, I don't know. They would consider that to be a tremendous victory, actually.

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They would consider that to be a victory, but the fact of the matter is that millions of Christians worldwide, hundreds of millions, revere the

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Holy Father as a great Christian icon, and as a great teacher of Christianity.

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And so for him to be assassinated would, number one, prove what everybody already knows, which is that Islam doesn't really have the truth that it claims to, and number two, that Catholicism obviously has something that Islam is not very happy about.

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That they feel the need to go out and kill the head of the Catholic Church would say a great deal about their hatred for the

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Catholic Church, and that in turn would say a great deal in support of the Gospels.

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Well, obviously we're going to have to disagree on that, because I don't think there's any question about the fact that it's already a given to any person who can observe that individuals who blow themselves up and things like that, that these are not individuals who have any respect for life.

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And as a result, there's really no debate about that. The more they continue to, for example, persecute

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Christians in Indonesia and things like that, is there a need for more proof? I don't think there is.

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Anyone who's looking already knows that. The question is, what are we going to do about it, and can a secularized

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West stand in the face of all that? But anyways, that's not really what your email to me was all about, though.

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No, it's not. And just to preface this, I am not going to have a debate with you today, and that is not why

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I called. And as I told you in my email, I am willing to call and speak with you and have a discussion, but I will not have a debate with you.

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This is an unmoderated forum. This is not neutral territory, and it's not set up for debate.

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And so if you'd like to schedule something for that in the future, I'd be more than happy to meet you on neutral ground with an impartial moderator for a debate, but that's not what this is about.

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What this is about is the fact that I had a piece of paper taped to my PC for nearly a year now with an address for your blog, and I didn't know exactly what it was, but I haven't had time to deal with it, because my primary work is in with apologetics dealing with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, both of which

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I have deep experience with. And in fact, when

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I looked at your blog, it was for the specific purpose of looking at your section on Roman Catholicism, but I also looked at the other two.

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And the reason that I find your site so amusing is threefold.

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Number one, because I see that over the years, really nothing at all with you and your exegesis has really changed.

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And number two... I'm sorry, could you repeat that? I didn't understand that. Nothing regarding you and your exegesis over the years has really changed from what

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I heard and read of you back in the early 90s. It's pretty much the same.

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So we're saying the same tone, the same consistency, and really nothing has changed, which is kind of amazing to me, because yesterday afternoon it was brought up to me that you had made a challenge for me to call and speak with you on your blog, and I had no idea.

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And I did not find out about the challenge that you had made on your blog until yesterday afternoon when Jimmy Akin himself told me about it.

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And during yesterday, I talked to several apologists that I know and several that I don't about the idea of speaking with you, and they all said, why bother?

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The reason being, James, because nothing does change and you've had these issues with Catholic apologists regarding the papacy, the primacy of Peter, sola scriptura, you know, a whole amazing array of doctrinal issues.

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And all of the Catholic apologists that I know who have debated you have come away saying the same thing, which is, he doesn't listen to reason.

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And interestingly enough, when I was listening to you back in the early 90s, I had just left the

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Mormon Church after six years of hell, and had just proven to myself by reading the 1830

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Palmyra edition of the Book of Mormon that the Book of Mormon could not possibly be scripture. That Joseph Smith, by his own admission and by his own historical writings, could not possibly be a prophet of God.

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And then I found myself going to the Phoenix Calvary Chapel with Mark Martin and to the

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Cave Creek Assemblies of God with Tom Barnett, and I also had friends who went to your church, and I was working at two hospitals down there in Phoenix at the time.

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And when I wasn't at work and I wasn't at school, I was at some church meeting somewhere, and more and more

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I was cluing in to the fact that I was hearing people like you and Mark Martin make emphatic statements about what

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Catholics supposedly believe. They believe this, they believe that, the Catholic Church teaches this, the

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Catholic Church teaches that. That I knew for a fact those things that you were saying

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Catholics believe, or that the Catholic Church teaches, could not possibly be true. Such as?

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And, well, like your issue with purgatory, like your issue with infant baptism, like Mark Martin's statement that...

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I can't, let's not worry about Mark Martin, because I don't know what he said. No, no, no, I'm going over all of it just because this is what's coming into my mind.

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Like his statement on tape that I still have, that Bernini's sculpture,

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The Window of Heaven, Catholics believe that it is actually the very seat of Peter, when in fact we know it's a

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Renaissance work of art. Okay, but I've never even heard that. The point being is that it was because of those things, and because of the statements that you were making at the time regarding languages and linguistics and biblical exegesis, regarding the statements that you were making and the quotes that you were taking from the early fathers of the

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Church, that I actually went out and I bought the early fathers of the Catholic Church the whole set, anti -missing, missing, post -missing, and I started reading them.

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And it took me two years of study. And the fact of the matter is, is that far from convincing me that Catholicism was not what it claimed to be, in being the one holy

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Catholic and apostolic Church that Christ established, you in your own exegesis, in your own tapes, in your own pamphlets and books, during that period of time, helped me to convince myself through reading the early fathers of the

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Church and through doing a thorough study of the Scriptures, that the Catholic Church was exactly what it claimed to be.

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And that is why in 1997 I was received back into full communion of the Church that I had loved when

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I was 15 years old. A thing that I never thought that I would ever do. Okay, now, Mickey, I've let you speak without interruption for quite some time, but we have yet to get to what we need to get to, and that is, you have made the accusation that there's all these misrepresentations, egregious errors, but you've not listed any yet.

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You just said something about purgatory. What about purgatory? You say that it's a false doctrine, you say that it's not biblical, and I'm saying that it is, and I am also saying that this has already been pointed out by several

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Catholic apologists, and as I said, I'm not going to debate it with you. Can we have a dialogue, or are you just here to talk?

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Yes, we can have a dialogue. Okay, all right, then we need to go back and forth, and so far you're not letting me do that, so let me ask you again.

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So, it is an egregious error or misrepresentation on my part to not believe in purgatory?

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Do you see the difference between misrepresenting, allegedly, according to you, what

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Rome teaches about purgatory, and disagreeing with it? You see the difference there, right? When you say that there is no biblical evidence to show or support purgatory as a doctrine of the faith, then yes, it is an egregious error.

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Okay, have you listened to my debate with Peter Stravinskas on purgatory? No, I haven't. Okay, have you listened to any of your debates?

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You've not listened to any of my debates? I have transcriptions of some of them, and I have read them. There are only two debates have been transcribed to my notes.

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No, that's not true. Okay, well then, there are only two that I've seen. I'm sitting here right in front of one of them.

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Which is? Which is, hold on, Mark Bonacore's answer to James White on early papacy.

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That's not a debate, ma 'am. That's an article that he wrote that is based on an email. Let's see, now that James Inwarger has posed his final question to me in our debate,

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I'm finally free to answer yours. It wasn't a debate. That is the header on that letter.

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Okay, I'm just telling you a fact, Mark Bonacore has never debated me. We've never done a debate, and that's not a transcript of a debate.

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My point is, when you ask questions of another apologist, and you expect them to give you a refutation, that is a debate.

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Whether it is in writing, or whether it is in person, that is a debate. Okay, we disagree about what a debate is then, and if that's the case,

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I've done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of debates, and do many a day. We all know that. But the point is, what about any statement that, since you've not listened to the debate with Stravinskis, have you read the materials, for example, when

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I debated, or had a dialogue with Robert St. Genes on 1st Corinthians 3?

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No, I have not. So, okay then, what then, where have I misrepresented the official teachings of the

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Roman Catholic Church in any of the writing or debating that I've done on the subject of purgatory?

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On your blog, you have misrepresented it. How? And I'm not going to go back and look into it.

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So, in other words, you cannot back up anything you've said. Yes, I can back up what I say, but as I told you already,

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I am not going to debate with you. I am not prepared for a debate, and as I said before, this is not an official discussion.

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Mickey, this isn't a debate. You wrote an email. Yes. And I've had

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Roman Catholics write me and say that I should never have posted it because it was so bad.

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Well, no, you claim that you've had Roman Catholics write you. Yes, yes, I have. You claim. And since you have no reason to question that, the fact of the matter is...

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Well, no, I do have reason to question it, because you've also made statements in the past, and these were some of the things that spurred me on to my study of the early fathers of the church.

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Such as? And to the Bible. Such as? When you've said that Catholics have a particular belief about infant baptism that does not match up with biblical tradition.

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Such as? What did I say? I'm not really recalling it. I would have to go get my notes, but as I said, this is not a debate.

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What I'm saying is that I found your website funny, and here's the reasons why.

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The other reason, the third reason, if I can get to it, that I found your website to be hysterically funny, is because you still are calling your ministry

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Alpha and Omega Ministries, which of course is a designation to Jesus Christ. The thing that is amazing to me is that there is absolutely nothing in your demeanor or in your attitude towards other

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Christians that has changed, and that is proven in the very format of your website in the first place.

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The fact that you have this designation towards Christ, and there are galleries of pictures on your website that I saw, dozens of them, perhaps hundreds,

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I'm not sure, because I didn't look at all of them, but there are pictures of you all over the place. You with different debaters, you on different panels, you with your family, you in a cartoon, and the fact of the matter is that this website is not about Jesus Christ, it's not about proclaiming the gospel, it's about you.

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And it's about proclaiming you, and about showing your prowess and your acumen with biblical languages and twisting writings of other people, and doing whatever it is that you have to do to help the early fathers of the church again.

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Okay, Mickey, over and over again, I have very patiently allowed you to insult me, you have very arrogantly written to me about laughing at things, and yet every single time, every single time, every single time, every single time,

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Mickey, that I ask you to back up what you're saying, you have failed to do so. No, I have not.

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I'm referring you back to your own debate with Catholic apologists, and I'm telling you every single time the evidence has shown.

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I've asked you for examples of misrepresentation, and you have failed to provide them.

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You say I've misrepresented what Catholicism taught on infant baptism, but you can't back it up.

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You say I've misrepresented the early church fathers, you can't back it up. Yes, I can. Where?

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Here's what we'll do, okay? I'm giving you a month. You find a neutral ground, you find a moderator, and I will bring you the laundry list, and then we can sit down and have this discussion of the day, because that is what you're asking for.

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I am calling in to explain to you why it is that your website amuses me.

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Mickey, give it up. My goodness.

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I'm sorry, but I sat here, and I patiently asked this lady who had written a demeaning email, and she doesn't even see it.

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I mean, let me remind everybody how this started, okay?

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Mickey writes to me, and she says that when she was young and stupid and didn't have a proper religious education, she listened to me.

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Is that a nice thing to say to someone, or is that ad hominem insulting argumentation?

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And then she says I don't have or even have a clue what the truth is. Is that nice?

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She says the sooner you quit with the arrogant, misological pride and shenanigans.

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Is that nice? Is that humble? And then she talks about egregious errors and misrepresentations

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I present as facts, but you just listened. And over and over again, I asked for a single example.

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Just one. One would be nice. And we didn't get one. And so we talk about how blissfully funny things are and blowhardness and acerbic ranting and scriptural cluelessness, and we have to wait a month?

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Now secondly, give me a month. Hello, a month from now, I'm on Long Island debating

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Bill Shishko. A month from now, I'm at Liberty debating the Canners. A month and a half from now,

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I'm in Florida debating John Shelby Spong and doing a conference. Hello?

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Excuse me? I cannot begin to understand this attitude that people have.

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Folks, I'm sorry, but I don't take myself overly seriously.

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I realize that if a truck takes me out while I'm riding my bike next week, the kingdom's going to go on, the world's going to go on, and that's just all there is to it.

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I'm never going to buy into the Bob Larson syndrome that he got into, that if he's not on the air, the world's coming to an end.

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Sorry, but I would never, ever, ever treat someone the way that Mickey just treated me.

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I would never do that. And I never have. There is not a single

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Roman Catholic apologist I have ever debated that I have ever treated the way that Mickey just treated me.

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Not one. I respect them as people too much, and Mickey doesn't understand that she has no respect for me as simply as an individual.

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Take a strong stance against someone, but know what you're talking about. My goodness.

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I have never written to someone in the language she just wrote to me where I would then have to sit back and go, well, you know, give me a month and you just clear your calendar, and I have no idea what you're doing.

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And you know what? I haven't listened to your debates. I don't know what you say when you debate Catholic apologists. I don't know. I'm just going on what

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I've been told. Amazing. Utterly and completely amazing.

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And if she's been having conversations with Catholic apologists, those folks need to talk to her and say, what are you doing?

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You're going to use as an example an accusation that he misrepresents us on the subject of purgatory, but you're not going to have anything to back it up.

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You're not going to listen to his debate with Stravinskis on purgatory. You're not going to...

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Amazing. Absolutely amazing. I sat back.

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I let her take her shots. I let her build her case. There's lots of places that I could have stepped in and said, no, wait a minute.

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That's not fair. You're being unfair. I just let her have her say. And when we got down to the most important point, if you're going to write a letter to someone and say, anyway, thanks so much for the laughs.

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It's been very entertaining. This site is as funny to read as a Watchtower magazine. Folks, when you get that nasty,

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I just ask one thing of you. Be prepared to back up what you're saying with facts.

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And we just learned one thing, and that is Mickey ain't got no facts. Hadn't even done her homework.

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Well, amazing. 877 -753 -3341

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Aye, aye, aye. That was something. So let's completely change our gears and talk to Lawrence in Oregon.

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Hello, Lawrence. Yes, Dr. White. This is Lawrence Klingwerk.

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I'm actually an Orthodox priest out of Oregon, and I had some thoughts on your reflections on icon worship, you might call it, from last week.

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Oh, you mean in regards to the person who called during the program last week. Yes, and also

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I was noticing that you often refer to the more Latin difference between Latria and Dulia, which is not really what was discussed in the

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Greek context at Nicaea. And I was wondering if you would perhaps comment on the fact that really the distinction that is made in the

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Eastern Church is between Poskeneo and Latria with a kind of a context which is a little bit different, especially because in the

32:57

Eastern Church, as you know, there is a sense of derivative worship, derivative even existence.

33:05

The Father is the source. We worship the Father through the Son, and we honor the

33:12

Father through our own parents, and so forth. And so it's a context that I think is quite different from what sometimes you interact with in the

33:23

Roman Catholic context. And that's the point, sir. Honestly, interestingly enough, I think in half an hour,

33:30

Chris Arnzen is going to be doing a radio program back on Long Island, at least that's what I saw on the announcement list this morning, discussing

33:38

Eastern Orthodoxy and the issues surrounding Eastern Orthodoxy and in a context where Eastern Orthodoxy is being discussed, then the terms that would be utilized in that context would be the terms that would be discussed.

33:51

However, last week on this program, every person that was calling was either a

33:56

Roman Catholic or asking questions about Roman Catholicism, so it would be a little bit confusing and a little bit out of place to be changing the context of the caller's question into Eastern Orthodoxy.

34:08

Eastern Orthodoxy is not an area that I have any particular interest in and concern about.

34:14

It is not something that is a real major in this area, and while it is certainly a worthwhile area of study, and Brother Larry Carino, who's going to be on the radio with Chris Arnzen in, like I said, about 26 minutes, and I suppose we could probably track down that link that we had on the blog at some point and try to remind people where it is and maybe you'd even want to listen on the web and call that program because that will be the specific topic that they are addressing and that is

34:42

Eastern Orthodoxy. But if I'm talking about Latria and Julia on Roman Catholic blogs, why would

34:49

I transport it into an Eastern Orthodox context and confuse everybody? It's a good point.

34:58

Perhaps what could be said is that, of course, the actual council that defined the matter which

35:07

I think was more a pastoral council than anything, but was in fact a

35:12

Greek council with a Greek language. So I think it's useful to mention that the actual council used a slightly different set of terms than what is now being used.

35:25

Yeah, but to be honest with you, the origination of the council to me is not overly relevant to the fact that, again, whether you want to look at proskuneo, whether you want to look at latruo, whether you want to look at Galatians 4 .8

35:43

and Paul's utilization of the Julia series of terms there in regards to religious service as worship, bilulo, however you want to look at those things, the only way to adequately and properly interpret those words and come up with a biblical doctrine of worship is to take the scriptures as a whole and when you do so, the context of Nicaea doesn't change.

36:12

That is, you still have to go back to the Old Testament, you still see that the distinction between these terms disappears when we look at how they're utilized in the

36:21

Greek Septuagint from the Hebrew itself and from ahav and the other terms to bow down, to serve, to all the other aspects where we are not allowed to give that kind of, in a religious context, adoration, veneration, worship, service, whatever terms you want to use, the whole complex is used, that they are to be directed to God and to God alone, and while proskuneo can be used of both

36:47

God and as a simple term of reverence to men in the New Testament, yet clearly, in the religious context, when proskuneo is given, for example, to Peter when he comes into Cornelius' house,

37:00

Peter says get up, I'm just a man. When John tries to give proskuneo engage in that activity in regards to the angel in the book of Revelation, the angel says don't do that.

37:12

Proskuneo, only God. And so the context remains the same, and that is in reference to worship,

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God and God alone is worthy of that and any kind of activity that distracts from the singular worship of God alone is fraught with the danger of idolatry if not rank idolatry itself.

37:36

And so, sure, we can talk about proskuneo if we want to and just did.

37:42

I don't think that it changes the reality of the families of terms that are utilized in the translation of the

37:48

Hebrew terms where God laid down what is and what is not appropriate worship to his people and that does not change in the

37:56

New Testament unless someone's going to say well, that was just, unless people are going to do what

38:01

Patrick Madrid did and said well, the only reason there was a prohibition against the use of images in the Old Testament was because people were prone to idolatry back then, but now they're not.

38:10

To which I go, yeah, really? Okay, I think we're just as prone to idolatry today as we were back then but, alright, that's an interesting way of approaching it.

38:19

I don't think most people would actually go that direction. I think fundamentally for both the Eastern Orthodox who derive their authority primarily from the liturgy and the tradition that's contained in that liturgy and the prayers of the church rather than a dogmatic statement of a pope or a council or something along those lines.

38:40

But for whoever it might be, fundamentally there has to be a denial of the normative nature of scriptural revelation as the final authority.

38:52

And I don't know what branch of Orthodoxy you are a part of, but I have seen numerous publications from Frankie Schaefer and others from sort of the

39:04

Americanized version of that, utilizing pretty much the same arguments against Sola Scriptura that my Roman Catholic opponents do.

39:09

And I think at least that's an honest way of saying, you know what, the reason that we do not follow this is because we deny

39:18

Sola Scriptura and we believe that the church and her traditions and her liturgy, however you want to put it, has the final right of interpretation of these things and that has to be brought into line here and that's why we allow the kind of worship that we do.

39:33

At least at that point I think we're at a fair starting point for the discussion. I tend to agree on the fact that the ability of the church to interpret or to perhaps narrow down the meaning of words is important.

39:48

I know that you yourself agree that there was some good grounds for the

39:54

First Nineteenth Council to narrow down the meaning of the terms usia and apostasis in a way that perhaps is a little bit different than the scriptural usage.

40:04

I think that... Those terms are not scriptural terms. There's no homo usius in the

40:09

New Testament. No, but the term usia and apostasis are scriptural terms and so my only point would be to say in the end that I think that there is often a different, you could say, paradigm in which

40:24

Eastern Christians operate and sometimes when we hear the very,

40:30

I think, very useful debate that you've done with the Roman Catholic, we feel that we're watching from a different planet.

40:37

No question. No question about it. Every time the question has come up and people have said, what about Eastern Orthodoxy?

40:44

I've said, look, Eastern Orthodoxy is a completely different question. It's a completely different mindset.

40:50

It's a completely different language. It's a completely different worldview. You cannot ask the same questions of Eastern Orthodoxy because you're speaking a different language.

41:00

You're not going to communicate in that fashion. If you're talking with Roman Catholicism, you can go to dogmatic canons and decrees and you have the

41:09

Western legal mindset. You don't have that in at least real Eastern Orthodoxy. I think there's sort of an

41:14

Americanized version that's developing that thinks more along a Western line, but a lot of people in the

41:19

East don't even acknowledge them along those lines, but it's very different. The questions are very different.

41:25

The concepts are very different. You can't just simply paint with a brush and just transfer concepts over to Eastern Orthodoxy.

41:33

It's a completely different ball game. People have said, well, when you get into that ball game, I said, I don't feel called to get into that ball game.

41:40

There are other people, like I said. Larry Carino does engage those issues and does debates on those issues.

41:48

In fact, someone on the E. Nielsen and channel was kind enough to make sure that we have the link. If you'd like to listen,

41:55

Lawrence, it's www. w -n -y -g w -n -y -g spirit of n -y dot com.

42:04

That's w -n -y -g and then all one word, spirit of n -y dot com. That's spiritofnewyork .com.

42:10

That's the radio program. They live stream and they also take phone calls. They're going to be discussing that.

42:17

The fact of the matter is, while it would be a related area because of issues regarding Sola Scriptura and authority and certain issues like that, there's exactly two people in this ministry, both of which are within ten feet of each other at the moment.

42:33

Both of us look like we could use about a four week vacation right now. I just not felt called to go that direction.

42:42

In fact, my studies right now are all in the subject of Islam and Arabic and the

42:48

Quran and things like that. There's only so many hours in a day. I address,

42:55

I direct people to Pastor Carino and say, if you want to get into the specifics, there's someone who can get into specifics with you.

43:03

I agree with you. I'm sorry I've not tried to quote unquote bring you all into the conversation.

43:11

That's not my objective. I have to remain focused in dealing with the people that I'm actually trying to deal with. Since there are other people in the body that deal with those issues,

43:19

I direct them to them. I would recommend you get a hold of Pastor Carino. Maybe listen in and see what he has to say today.

43:26

I think you'd find that to be very interesting. Thank you for your call today. Boy, Lawrence Johnny in Virginia.

43:35

Hi, Johnny. Hey, how are you doing? Doing good. Are we limited to a particular discussion?

43:41

We've been all over the place today, haven't we? Yeah, well, this is my first time to actually get into your broadcast.

43:48

Sure, go ahead. I'm actually in a discussion with several persons who have different degrees of Calvinism and I have kind of a hard time finding an authority statement.

44:00

So I've been reading a lot from your website and I'm curious in regard to maybe you might say as I read,

44:08

I don't pay attention very well if I'm having to ask this question, but I'm trying to figure out the difference between the Reformed position and say

44:15

Southern Baptists are Independent Baptists and are if you're familiar with the

44:20

Primitive Baptists. Well, if you mean

44:26

Reformed Baptists, I can speak to that because I'm a Reformed Baptist Elder and generally Reformed Baptists, that's almost always equivalent to someone who utilizes the 1689

44:37

London Baptist Confession of Faith, sometimes called the Second London Confession of Faith. There was also one back in 1844 and things like that.

44:45

And so there is going to be a very particular emphasis upon the doctrines of grace.

44:51

It's very explicit. The London Confession is an amalgamation of the Westminster Confession, the

44:56

Savoy Declaration. So outside of its view of infant baptism and church government, it's going to in many ways be almost identical to the

45:06

Westminster Confession of Faith. The Southern Baptists of course have a much less specific statement of faith, the

45:14

Baptist faith and message is much less specific. It originally came out of a Reformed background.

45:19

It came out of a Calvinistic background. It still contains Calvinistic elements. But you have

45:25

Calvinistic Southern Baptists, like the Founders Conference. The gentleman who will be joining me in doing the debate in Lynchburg is a

45:32

Southern Baptist and he is the director of the Founders Movement there. And so you have a much wider viewpoint among Southern Baptists.

45:42

You have a much narrower range of viewpoints amongst Reformed Baptists than you do among Southern Baptists, especially on the issues of soteriology, the doctrines of grace.

45:53

Independent Baptists, again, you're going to have a fairly wide variety of viewpoints there, though the majority of those are going to be

46:00

Arminian in their perspective. And Primitive Baptists, again, they used to be much more united, shall we say, in what their viewpoints are.

46:11

I even preached at a Primitive Baptist church last year and Primitive Baptists had been known as embracing a lot of hyper -Calvinistic perspectives, which would include a lack of evangelism, a lack of a proclamation of the

46:26

Gospel, which both Southern Baptists and Reformed Baptists would eschew and would say, no, that's not appropriate.

46:33

And anyone who ever uses the hyper -Calvinist term for me is just demonstrating they haven't a clue what they're talking about.

46:39

No hyper -Calvinist would ever have gone to Salt Lake City as many times as I did and passed out tracts to the

46:44

Mormons and taken the abuse in the process. So that would never happen. But some of them are changing and becoming less hyper -Calvinistic along those lines and more evangelistic.

46:58

Like I said, the church I was at was along those lines in being evangelistic and calling people to repentance and faith and things like that.

47:05

So a lot of it goes back to the founding documents, and of course since the Baptist faith and message is so broad in the subjects that it addresses, it allows for a much greater spectrum of belief in regards to that.

47:21

Does that start answering your question? Well, it does somewhat. One of the questions that I really have when

47:28

I see these differences put forth say for instance in the Primitive Baptist and the Southern Baptist, when

47:34

I'm reading the Baptist faith and message I still read from them that the ability to turn to God is really not in man.

47:44

On one page, they say it's basically something that the Holy Spirit has to actually do before you can reach out to God.

47:53

But on another page they seem to deny that. They seem to say, well, it happens when you preach.

48:00

Those two things are not contradictory, because I do not believe that a sinful man who is enslaved to sin possesses within himself the ability to turn to Christ outside of regeneration.

48:12

I don't believe that either. I think that's clearly what Jesus taught in John 6 44, John 8. But those two things are not contradictory because the means that God has ordained to use to bring men to himself is through the proclamation of the gospel.

48:26

1 Corinthians chapter 1 is His pleasure to save those who believe through the preaching of the cross.

48:33

There's no contradiction between recognizing that God and His sovereignty must grant regeneration and bring a person out of spiritual death to spiritual life before they can cling to Christ, and the fact that He then uses means in that process.

48:47

The means that He uses, He uses us. He uses us as the means. We proclaim the Word. The Word plus the

48:52

Spirit together is what brings spiritual life. And so, I don't see those two things as being contradictory.

48:59

I can see how people, if they have a very strong dedication to the concept of libertarian free will might think they're contradictory, but since I don't have that commitment,

49:12

I have a commitment to man having a creaturely will which Jesus said was enslaved to sin in John chapter 8, and Jesus said no man is able to come to me unless the

49:20

Father who sent me draws him in John 6 44, then I don't see those as contradictory concepts. Okay, well, maybe you can explain it better to me then.

49:27

Is it the case that you and they are saying that it is in conjunction, that the

49:34

Holy Spirit is working in conjunction with the Word? Yes. In the sense that a man can respond at the point that the

49:43

Word and the Holy Spirit, what, enlightens him in regard to his lost state?

49:51

Well, I'm not saying that the Word and the Spirit simply bring him to some sort of moral neutral point where he now gets to decide one way or the other.

49:58

My belief is that when God chooses at the time he chooses to bring and to draw one of his elect people unto himself, that he does so through the ministry of the preached

50:10

Word and the Spirit that brings regeneration. The Word brings the object of faith and the person who has been regenerated clings to Jesus Christ because it is his nature to do so.

50:22

He is a new creature in Christ. He clings to Christ. That's why the message is preached to him. No, I do not believe that it's a matter of God bringing somebody in and now it's up to them.

50:34

I do believe that I have believed in Christ and I exercise faith in Christ, but I recognize that I had to be brought out of spiritual death, out of slavery to sin to be able to do so.

50:45

I cannot boast in myself. That's why Paul says in 1 Corinthians chapter 1, there is no ground for boasting.

50:51

It is by his doing that you are in Christ Jesus. So there can be no boasting. Let him who boasts, boast in the

50:56

Lord. It's by his doing that I'm in Christ Jesus. Not that he just simply made a way available, but that he actually brought me to himself.

51:04

And as a result of that, I as a Christian cling, I believe, everything that I do is a result of God's first work in me.

51:13

Does Dr. Cantor disagree with you on the element of where you actually described that election?

51:20

Totally. That is the point of disagreement. Yes. What did you say?

51:25

Oh yeah, he does not believe in the concept of unconditional election. He does not believe in the concept of total depravity in the idea that as Jesus said, no man is able to come to me unless the

51:37

Father send me draws him. Yes, he would be a full -blown synergist on those issues. Most definitely. Strong believer in free will.

51:44

That is my question. I'm going to try to be at the debate. He actually is supposed to start a discussion with me on a broadcast here in Virginia.

51:52

We're actually having a live debate right now with the Primitive Baptist on that same broadcast. I'm trying to get a...

52:00

You know, I don't like to state what someone says. Here's my suggestion for you.

52:06

Did he preach? Have you seen the sermon that he preached? I did, on your website. Okay, but did you watch it?

52:13

Yes, I did. I went over. Okay, good. I think that's the best way. He made his position rather clear a couple times.

52:22

I wish I could see more. I wish there were more sermons. I wish there were books. I mean, there's no question of where I'm coming from.

52:29

I've published books and done enough debates on this that everybody knows where I'm coming from, but I wish I had more from him on these issues.

52:36

He also did... Did you see the article early June? I linked it while I was away writing.

52:43

He also wrote an article for a blog on fallwell .com

52:49

or something like that, where he also addresses these issues. So, at least that would give you some written documentation so the questions you can ask would be directly from what he himself has said, because I'm a real stickler for accurate representation and as you saw and may have heard with Mickey at the beginning of the program and the same thing with Dr.

53:07

Cantor. We need to represent him for his position, and so I think I'm being very accurate in saying that he would be a full blown synergist on those issues.

53:16

Yeah, that's great. Are you going to be available at the debate? Are you just going to fly in, fly out, or will you have a time to meet and greet or what?

53:24

I have no idea what the situation at the debate is going to be. In fact, to be perfectly honest with you,

53:29

I can't guarantee even you could get in, because there's only so many seats. The students at Liberty are being strongly encouraged to be there by Dr.

53:37

Falwell, so I don't know how many people from outside of that specific area are going to be able to attend the debate.

53:43

We have been discouraging people from seeking to attend the debate, to be perfectly honest with you. It's going to be live webcast anyway.

53:49

So, it's going to be, in fact, I think it's going to be live video cast. So, I continue to warn folks about that, that we cannot guarantee that folks could be able to get into that debate.

53:58

We just can't. Are you the one who's sourcing that video? No, no. They are. They are. Liberty is. Okay. Well, I wasn't aware of that.

54:05

I've been encouraging people in our area to go, because, you know, the fact we are having this televised discussion at the same time.

54:10

Yeah. I just don't The problem is, I just can't guarantee, since there's no tickets, there's nothing like that, there's only so many seats, and there's a lot of students at Liberty.

54:18

I just don't know what kind of access there's going to be, what kind of crowd's going to be there, but I think it's going to be a big one.

54:24

So, anyway. Alrighty? Alright. Does your schedule change during the winter months, really, like December, whatever?

54:31

Does it slow down? No, not really, but why is that?

54:38

I would like to have you on our show. Oh, okay. Well, drop us, drop me an email through the line, and we'll see if we can't arrange that, because doing something like that, especially since we have this material here, is a little bit easier to do, but I've got three more phone calls

54:52

I've got to get to real quick. Thanks a lot. Bye. I know that you need to run rather quickly afterwards, but I'm going to try to get to as many of these calls as I possibly can.

55:00

Jeff in Valley Forge. Hi, Jeff. Hi, Dr. White. How are you doing? Yes, sir. Doing good. Alright, I'll be very quick.

55:07

I'll email myself as the person who called you up on issues, etc., about the Mormon stuff. Okay. And I heard you talking about that on a later dividing line.

55:17

I was not the original person who called you on the dividing line. Oh, okay. On the dividing line. And speaking of issues, etc.,

55:24

I heard Dr. Koehner talk about Islam, and I guess

55:30

I found out he's a former Muslim. Yeah, he converted at age 13. Okay.

55:36

And I was wondering, and this is my only question, how much of since they have a lot to do with predestination, definitely not from a

55:44

Christian perspective, how much that influences his emotions about this?

55:49

I have had many, many, many, many, many people write to me on that very same issue, and I am quite certain that for both of the

55:57

Kanners there is a tendency to conflate and to confuse the

56:07

Islamic concept of fatalism that is a part of Islamic theology with what we are talking about, and I'm certain that that's in there someplace.

56:20

I'm hoping that they have done enough reading of Christian theologians, of some of the more popular people, like Spurgeon, or Warfield, or Hodge, or Sproul, or somebody to recognize the differences that exist, specifically in regards to God's sovereignty being very personal, that it's not this arbitrary thing where Allah can do whatever

56:45

Allah wants to do, but that God works within the concepts of justice and mercy, and I hope that that's not going to be something that comes out.

56:56

If it is, I'll be ready to address it, but I hope that that would not be the case, but I don't know what we're going to walk into there.

57:05

All I know is, when I have the microphone, that I need to be as clear and concise and God -honoring as I possibly can, no matter what else is going on, in front of me or behind me.

57:16

That's going to be my goal at that time, but I would think you are exactly correct that that does have a major impact upon their thinking of the subject.

57:25

Thank you. Real quickly, Johnny, you've got about one minute, the best.

57:34

How are you doing, man? Doing good. Wow, that's not much time. Yeah, I know. My question was whether or not we know of the

57:43

Jewish people during the Second Temple Era practicing the concept of praying to saints, you know, that intercession concept.

57:52

Was that something that came about in the early history of the Church, or was that part of some trend in Judaism?

58:03

I'm not comfortable with anything other than saying to my knowledge,

58:09

I am unaware of anything like that. There are modern Jewish practices that some of my claim go back there, but as far as actually being able to substantiate from contemporaneous documents and materials like that,

58:25

I don't think that you would find much foundation for anything that would be at all meaningfully parallel to the later development of those concepts within Roman Catholicism.

58:35

Okay? Thank you very much. Thank you. God bless. Bye -bye. Well, I'll tell you something. A personal word for Mickey.

58:45

With a clear conscience, I can say I have never, ever treated a Roman Catholic the way that she has treated me, and I hope that people listening to that heard, that is the mindset of the

58:58

Roman Catholic apologetics community. Mickey didn't make that up herself. She gets that from her leaders, folks.

59:04

That's what we're up against. We continue to stand for the truth. We will not get down to that level. Let's continue it on.

59:11

Thank you. See you on Thursday. God bless. Write us at P .O.

01:00:01

Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. You can also find us on the

01:00:07

World Wide Web at aomin .org That's a -o -m -i -n -dot -o -r -g where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.