July 26, 2018 Show with John Samson on “7 Charismatic Deceptions”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Thursday. On this 26th day of July 2018, and I'm delighted to have back on the program as a returning guest today, a dear friend of mine,

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Pastor John Sampson, who is a former Word of Faith Pentecostal pastor and former

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TBN televangelist and talk show host. He is a convert to Reformed Baptist theology and cessationist pneumatology.

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He's an author and pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and a blogger at effectualgrace .com.

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And today we are going to be addressing seven charismatic deceptions. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear friend,

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Pastor John Sampson. Great to be with you again, Chris. It's always a privilege. And let me give our listeners our email address right now if you have any questions.

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It's chrisarnson at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please, as always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Well, before we go into the subject at hand,

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Pastor John, tell us about King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Yeah, well, as you described,

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I've come out of quite a lot of deception, a whole lot of it, and yet started the new church in our home, and it's grown to a good size now.

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We're actually looking for another building and reformed Baptist church here in Peoria, which is part of the

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Valley of the Sun here in Phoenix, Arizona. And I know that you are a confessional church with some modification on the 1689

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London Baptist Confession. Yeah, that's correct. We hold it in very, very high esteem and want everybody to know where we stand very quickly, and that's the document we point people to.

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And the website is kingschurchaz .com, kingschurchaz .com.

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And, of course, as I mentioned before, Pastor John also blogs at effectualgrace .com, that's

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E -F -F -E -C -T -U -A -L grace .com. And you can find out more about the blog by going to that website.

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I think it is in high order, before we start actually going through seven charismatic deceptions, that we make it clear, and you and I may not see perfectly eye to eye on this issue,

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I don't know, maybe we do, but I don't think being a charismatic in and of itself makes one a heretic,

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I don't think it makes one outside of the parameters of my Christian fellowship.

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I have very dear friends who are charismatic and Pentecostal. In fact, some of them,

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I know that they are a minority right now anyway, but some of them are actually soteriologically more in alignment with what

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I believe is a Reformed Baptist than many of my Baptist brothers. And some of them,

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I mean, charismatic means a lot of things to a lot of different people, and there are variations of how charismatic beliefs are expressed, and even what those beliefs are.

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I have charismatic and Pentecostal friends that if you were to visit their churches, you would never even know that they are charismatic or Pentecostal, because you don't see anyone in their congregation speaking in tongues during the live worship.

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You don't see anything bizarre. In fact, some of their, and of course this may be a minority, but some of the worship services at some charismatic and Pentecostal churches are even more reserved and traditional than some

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Calvinistic Baptist churches today. So, I mean, there is a wide umbrella that this charismatic term encompasses.

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So, why don't you let our listeners know exactly what you're talking about before we go into the theme, because it's a very controversial and explosive theme, title,

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Charismatic Deceptions, and along with that, maybe carried the connotation that everybody who is charismatic is intentionally deceiving people, which

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I know that you don't believe. But if you could, let us know exactly where you're coming from before we go into the actual seven deceptions that you want to list.

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Yeah, I'm happy to do that. First of all, I would just absolutely agree with everything you said. I think there are genuine believers amongst the charismatics.

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I consider myself to have come out of that, yet being a true believer at the same time.

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You believe that you were a true believer before you left that movement, right? Yeah, exactly.

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That's the point I'm making, that I believed in the true God, in the

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Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Spirit, as I understand that now. I believed in a biblical gospel.

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I just had a lot of baggage, and it's the baggage we're going to talk about. I believe that we can be, each of us, deceived in certain areas, but that is not to say that we're outside the

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Christian faith. We all are growing in our walk with the Lord, and we can be misguided on some things and still believe the basics of the faith, which is what we need to do to be genuine

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Christians. So I would just start by affirming all you've just said. I have charismatic friends, not so many after today's broadcast, but I consider them my brothers and sisters in Christ, even if we disagree on these very important and vital things, but not to the exclusion of saying, this one is no longer my brother or sister because he believes something different in this area.

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Right. In fact, I have two very dear friends. One of them is in heaven now, but Al Stein of the

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Neighborhood Assembly of God, he was the pastor there in Belmore, Long Island, New York.

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He was not only a pastor there, but he was an overseer, a bishop on Long Island, overseeing all the congregations there in this

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Assembly of God denomination. And when I first met Al, he was, for lack of a better term,

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I don't think he would identify himself as an Arminian, but he was for all intents and purposes an

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Arminian, but was never anti -Calvinist as long as I've known him.

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And by the time, I would say about three to four years before he left the planet

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Earth and entered into glory with Christ for eternity, after a tragic automobile accident,

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Al was a full -blown five -point Calvinist. And Al and another friend of mine who's still living,

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Pastor Jim Capo of the Massapequa Church of God, he is a full -blown five -point Calvinist. And both of those men did not have much to complain about or disagree with that took place at the

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Strange Fire Conference that John MacArthur orchestrated. Al Stein loved

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John MacArthur, and I'm sure he still does even though he's in heaven. And Al Stein, when

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I asked him, what did you think about the conference? And he said, well, I got to be honest, I hardly disagreed with anything, and I just thought that the only thing that I would have changed is that sometimes the language was a bit broad -brushing.

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But other than that, the dangers that they warned against are real dangers within the

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Charismatic and Pentecostal movement that I also warn my flock and others about.

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So there are good men out there who come under the umbrella of Pentecostal. Absolutely, and in fact, in my training in England at the

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Bible College or Seminary I went to, there was definitely a Pentecostal Charismatic emphasis, but I would say 80 % of the lecturers were

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Reformed, and that was quite something. So definitely had an openness to understand that they were genuine

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Christians, but I just thought these Reformed guys were misguided, but they got the Charismatic stuff right.

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Now I've understood that they were right on the Reformed, but it's the

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Charismatic aspects that we need to talk about as brothers and sisters in Christ looking to the

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Scripture. In fact, before we even go through some of the deceptions, perhaps we could just talk a little bit about, for the sake of our

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Reformed Baptist and cessationist brothers, what you actually applaud that you see within Charismatic and Pentecostal circles.

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And of course, just as we cannot broad brush with negative things, we can't broad brush with positive things either.

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But for instance, I could give you a couple of things that come to mind immediately. I think that we as cessationists can learn from many of our

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Charismatic and Pentecostal brothers with the very open and gregarious and enthusiastic way they in public can demonstrate and just vibrate with a bright light as far as what they believe in regard to the

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Gospel and Jesus Christ. They can be walking billboards for the Gospel very often, whereas many people from more traditional and reserved backgrounds aren't necessarily like that in public, at a restaurant, online, at the

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DMV. And of course, not all Pentecostals and Charismatics are like that either. But I have found that to be perhaps more common amongst our

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Charismatic brethren than I have found with our cessationist brethren. And the other thing

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I can mention off the top of my head is that very often

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Charismatic and Pentecostal Christians are more likely to be found with their sleeves rolled up in the dark and dirty nitty -gritty of evangelism on the streets amongst the worst of sinners, those that are considered as a pariah even amongst the unsaved, the prostitutes, the homosexuals, the drag queens, the drug addicts, the

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AIDS patients. At least where I'm from originally in New York, when you would go into the city and you would have conversations with Brothers in Christ who are actually face -to -face ministering to a lot of people from those backgrounds, they are very often, more often than not,

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Charismatic or Pentecostal. I would agree. There's a vibrancy that they have, and I wouldn't use the word militant, but they're very vibrant in their

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Gospel proclamation, and that's really generally across the board a true statement.

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I think another thing I'd add is if you want something prayed for, ask a

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Charismatic. They're going to be someone who will definitely go to the

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Lord and do battle as they would see it. They would really be in your court to pray for something.

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If you've got a challenge in the family, you ask them to pray, they'll be prayers. Oftentimes we would say to someone else, would you pray, and they may or may not.

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A Charismatic will pray. One thing that I'd like to ask as a favor to my Charismatic and Pentecostal Brethren is that when we're praying together, if you could not talk while I'm praying so that you can actually hear what

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I'm saying. Very often when you're praying with a Charismatic or Pentecostal, they're talking and praying while you're praying, which sometimes is annoying because it makes you think that they're not even listening to what you're praying.

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You can just hear before you're even in mid -sentence, yes Lord, thank you Father God.

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Now that we have made it clear as time will allow that we don't believe that the

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Charismatic and Pentecostal Christians and churches are necessarily a pariah.

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There are those that are a pariah, but there are many that are not, and there are many that are a gift to God's church and kingdom, and there are many that we should rightfully envy and covet things about them where they are more clearly manifesting the love of Christ and they're being unashamed of the gospel and that kind of thing.

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But if you could now, why did you come up at this time recently, it was just a matter of a seven deceptions that actually got you in some hot water with some

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Charismatic Christians who were complaining about these seven deceptions, but why did you even at this time, what was the thing that provoked you to post those seven deceptions?

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I think it's been buzzing around in my head for a while to address this.

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I have at various times spoken of my involvement in the Word of Faith, and some of the most egregious and outlandish doctrines are easy to pull apart, but a growing sense has been rising in me that I need to address this as well, because so many people are basing guidance on a supposed word from the

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Lord or something that is going on between their ears, and just in that I have, obviously as a pastor,

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I encounter people who are faced with big decisions, should I take this job or that job, should

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I marry this person or that person, and what I'm finding is there's a whole complete different worldview and mindset between the

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Charismatic and, say, the quote, Reformed believer who's going to Scripture.

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The Charismatic is looking for signs everywhere. Perhaps they've got, let's say the example of a job offer, and they've got a job in their hometown, say they live in Wisconsin, they've got a job offer there, they've got another job offer in Seattle, another one in Texas, and they're praying,

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Lord, which one is it? And perhaps it's in the same field, it's a similar sort of pay, and so they're not really sure which one to go for, and they're looking for signs.

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It's Wisconsin, it's Seattle, it's Texas, and they're looking for signs, they're reading, and they're wondering if they're going to come across the word

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Texas somewhere, or they're watching the television, and three times in the day they hear of basketball being played in Texas, and maybe the

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Lord speaking, and then they're looking, they're getting a little bit confused because they're seeing a commercial for Seattle because of the coffee made there, and they're wondering which is it, and then they have, within three days, seven other things that speak of Texas, and they're basing their decision on subjective things that are very, very shallow in the sense of making a big life decision regarding what is happening between your ears.

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Maybe they're asking the Lord for a dream, maybe they're asking the Lord for a word, and they're dreaming at night, and they're thinking that is

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God speaking to them, and I'm thinking that's very, very dangerous. Where I've come to, and which is why, you know, people who come to talk to me, they hear this,

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I say, what does the Bible say about this decision? The Bible says nothing about Seattle, Wisconsin, or Texas.

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What the Bible says is, this is the will of God, your sanctification. And so the biblical

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Christian, I believe, seeking God's will in the matter, will look at this very, very different, and will ask the question, question number one, in each of the three places, where's a good local church?

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That's far from view in many, many people's thinking, but I remember hearing of a couple who had an older daughter who was going to go to university.

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They actually flew out to the city to find out if there was a good church, and they checked it out on the

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Sunday before they would give their approval on whether their daughter should go to that particular university.

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In other words, they're thinking biblically. They're thinking, this is what I need for my daughter as a father, a good local church where she's going to be prayed for, she can hear the

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Word of God expounded every week. That is more important than saving a few hundred dollars, or a few thousand dollars by going to this place or that place.

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They're thinking biblically. They're sanctification, rather than for an impression, rather than hearing something between their ears.

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They're thinking, what does the Bible say? My sanctification is most important. What will

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I find in this place rather than that place that will aid my sanctification?

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And so, I'm taking a long time to answer, but when I'm seeing these people in front of me, and realizing

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I'm giving them a totally different kind of advice than I would as a charismatic,

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I'm realizing this needs to go further than simply the four walls of the counseling room.

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I need to talk about this. I need to talk about this for the sake of misguidance. So many people

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I've met as charismatics, they say, well, the Lord told me to come here, and I don't know why, because it's been four months, and I haven't got a job, and I'm about to be taken out of my apartment because I can't pay the rent, and there's no fruit.

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And there's no fruit of it being a wise, godly decision. And here's what the scripture says, the secret things belong to the

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Lord our God, and the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever.

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Deuteronomy 29, 29. And a point that Sinclair Ferguson made was, the secret things are

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God's secret by intention. They're his secrets, and we're not responsible for trying to find out the secret will of God.

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If God wants to send an angel to us, amen, I'm all for it. If he wants to guide us that way.

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But what he has given us is what he's revealed, and it's the word of God, and it's those word of God principles upon which we're to make our decisions rather than subjective impressions.

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So that's the heart behind all of this. And just to clarify on what you've just said, and perhaps you will disagree with me,

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I don't know, I don't think you will, but I think there is a difference between a miraculous sign or asking

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God for one, and asking God for evidence through his providence on what his will is.

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When you don't have something clearly spelled out in the Bible, like, do

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I take the job in Wisconsin or in Philadelphia, I would pray as I do daily on certain things.

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In fact, right now I'm going through some stressful things in my own life that involve rescuing the childhood home where I was raised from an auction and things like that.

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But I ask God, please, Lord, through your providence, show me what decisions you would like me to make, what decisions would most please you.

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Shut doors and make it clear to me. Open doors and make those doors also very clear to me, and that kind of a thing.

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I don't think that that is wrong. If you're talking about a sign, that is in a sense a sign that God may give you through providential occurrences that he sovereignly controls.

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But at the same time, it's not like a miraculous sign, like seeing the clouds form into the word

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Wisconsin or something. I couldn't agree with you more, absolutely. And even in the book of Acts, we're not told how the

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Holy Spirit made it clear regarding the will of God, but it just says the Spirit did not permit them.

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They tried to go into Bithynia, and God said no, and we don't know how he said no, and it could well be that the doors were closed.

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And they tried to open the door, they tried to get into that place, and they were not able to, and that itself is guidance.

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I agree. All right, well, let's start with this list of seven deceptions, and the first one that you have posted is, charismatics proclaim a two -tiered

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Christianity, those with and those without the Spirit. And another clarification that might be needed is, whereas Pentecostals, and perhaps you could differentiate between the two,

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Pentecostals are typically those that are in specific historically formed denominations, and I think that all of them believe in the necessity of the baptism of the

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Holy Spirit to, or should I say, they all believe in the necessity of the gift of tongues as the sign of the baptism of the

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Holy Spirit, not for salvation, as the Oneness Pentecostals insist, that tongues are required, but that the tongues is the sign of the baptism of the

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Holy Spirit, whereas charismatics, which you may have Baptist charismatics and Presbyterian charismatics and Episcopalian charismatics and Catholic charismatics, they don't all necessarily agree on that kind of an issue.

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That's very true. I couldn't have put it better myself. That's absolutely right.

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Historically, and in general terms, that is correct. The charismatics would not always say that tongues are the sign of being baptized in the

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Holy Spirit, filled with the Holy Spirit, but the Pentecostals usually would, although there are even degrees of separation between certain denominations of the

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Pentecostals. But in a general sense, what I'm trying to say by the phrase that was mentioned just there is, charismatics in general, and we have to talk in general terms, but coming out of that,

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I would say there was this idea that there's two kinds of Christians. Those who have the

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Spirit, and those who do not. Now, immediately, people push back and say, well, I don't believe that.

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That might be specific to you, but in general, that is the case. I remember, this is how it plays out.

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As a charismatic, seeing a book and enjoying that book, and someone who was a fellow charismatic saying, well, why are you reading that guy?

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I said, well, what's your problem with him? Well, he doesn't have the Spirit, and I'm thinking, well, why would you say that?

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Well, he doesn't speak in tongues. And there's this concept that there is this two tiers of Christianity.

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Those who have received the Holy Spirit and those who have not, and however we might nuance that, it actually leads to two tiers.

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One who is this kind of first -class Christian, and one who's a second -rate

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Christian who's not enjoying all that is available to them in Christ.

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And that itself is a problem. Just going to the book of Romans, if someone doesn't have the

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Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8 makes very, very clear. Every Christian has the

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Holy Spirit. I believe it's good for any of us and all of us as Christians to ask, Lord, fill me afresh today with the

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Holy Spirit. Absolutely, that is key. I think we need to pray that more and more every chance we can.

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We are so dependent on Him. But my point in that, in saying this, is it's the exact opposite of what we see the

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Holy Spirit do in the book of Acts, and especially when we read some of the epistles like Ephesians.

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Ephesians chapter 2 comes to mind. The Holy Spirit has come and has broken down the walls of partition, as it says, between Jew and Gentile.

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He's knocked them flat on the floor. There is no wall now between Jew and Gentile. We're united in Christ.

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The presence of the Holy Spirit and His work has brought the two into one.

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And what I see happening with the charismatic idea is walls are being built up, not between Jew and Gentile, but between those who speak in tongues and those who don't, those who have the

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Spirit and those who don't, and I believe that's a big problem. Right there, there should be a red flag very, very strongly waving in our minds, saying, why would that be?

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Why would someone think that there are two classes of Christians? And I know that this is grievous to some, and even this first point is a problem for some, but for decades

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I understood that there was a superiority with those who felt they were filled with the

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Spirit, and they looked down. Literally, they looked down on those who were not speaking in tongues.

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Yeah, in my early years of journey, my religious journey, where God, I believe, was drawing me, and it's one of those things where it's hard for me to pinpoint exactly when

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I was saved, but I was raised Roman Catholic, and as a person in my late teens began to explore other faiths because I became convinced that the

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Catholic Church was a false religion. And one of those very early churches where I was attending the services weekly for months was a

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Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee congregation on Long Island, New York, and I can remember after morning worship going out to the diner with one of the pastors and his wife and kids and maybe a couple of the other members of the church, and the pastor said, hey,

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I got a joke for you, Chris, and I said, what's that? And he said, why is it that Baptists will go to heaven before we will?

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And I said, why? And he said, because the dead in Christ shall rise first. And then, of course,

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I'm sure that joke is told with varying denominations inserted in it. But what you just said was clearly the driving force behind a joke like that.

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They really believed that they were superior spiritually to Baptists anybody else that was not a tongue talker, as some of them call themselves.

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But if you want to continue before we go to the break, we're going to a break right now, actually, but if you have anything to say before we go to the break.

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Yeah, I remember a minister in my home church in Somerset, England, for quite some time.

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He'd gone to a Bible college, and midway, two -thirds of the way through his first year, he was supposedly filled with the

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Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, and within a few days left the Bible college because now the

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Holy Spirit was going to be teaching him. He had something now superior to the seminary training.

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And that was just the idea that now you have the Holy Spirit, you don't need a teacher.

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And they have a verse they take out of context in 1 John that they use as the basis for that.

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The Holy Spirit is now speaking to me directly. Seminary training,

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I can find it out, whatever relationship now with the

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Holy Spirit, because he's speaking to me directly. And so there was this superiority that was just inbred in this idea.

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By the way, John, I don't know what's going on, but sometimes you cut out. I don't know what's happening if you're getting a call or something, but I just wanted you to be aware that sometimes you become inaudible.

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It didn't happen all that often just then, but I just wanted you to be aware of it in case there's something that you can correct when we go to the commercial break.

31:19

Okay, sir. Okay, and we're going to that break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona on seven charismatic deceptions.

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In fact, if you are a full -blown charismatic or Pentecostal and you vociferously disagree with what's being said, by all means, please state your objection.

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But you also can contact us if you agree with John completely, or if you're just not certain.

31:49

In fact, you can contact us even if you're not a Christian at all. We would love to hear from you at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Whether you're a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a

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Hindu, or a Swedenborgianist, we would love to hear from you at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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.nyc. Have a great day. Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

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Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

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Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

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He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

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He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for one million dollars or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

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I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

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Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Great. Well, we are now returning to our discussion on seven charismatic deceptions, and before we move on to the second deception, do you have anything further to say about Charismatics Proclaim a

40:00

Two -Tiered Christianity, those with and those without the Spirit? I think just to add, there's really what

40:09

I see as the use of the same Biblical words that we find in the

40:15

New Testament, but a different dictionary being used to define those things.

40:21

I'm thinking of, I wrote down four different areas. There's this, in charismatic circles, there's the idea of Apostles, but they're like New Testament Apostles.

40:34

The Apostles of the New Testament were commissioned by Christ, they were eyewitnesses of Jesus after the

40:43

Resurrection, they were personally appointed by Jesus, they had authentic, miraculous signs.

40:51

2nd Corinthians 12, 12 speaks of the signs of an Apostle, and so when

40:57

Charismatics speak of Apostles today, none of those things are in play, and before it came to me, if God is revealing things outside of Scripture, and this goes to the concept of Sola Scriptura, then logically, what we need to be doing is have a lot of blank pages at the back of our

41:21

Bibles where we recount what goes on between our ears as Scripture. If God is actually speaking, then we should do no less.

41:30

So in the area of Apostles, in the area of prophecy, perhaps we'll talk about that, we have fallible, non -authoritative prophecy in Charismatic ranks, unlike the

41:42

Bible, where you get one thing wrong and it's the death sentence. Thankfully, we're not in the

41:48

Old Testament, but Deuteronomy makes that clear. You shall not be afraid of the one who's the false prophet.

41:55

There's 100 % accuracy, or else it's not a true prophet. In fact, even if it does come to pass what is said, they're proclaiming a different God, the

42:04

Lord is testing you. See all of that in Deuteronomy 13 and 18. And then tongues.

42:10

It's unfortunate that our Bible, oftentimes, usually all the time, just uses the word tongues rather than languages, which is what the

42:21

Greek word glosa means. They spoke in tongues. Well, that means they spoke in languages.

42:27

And if we had just in our Bibles had seen Acts 2 -4 as they were filled with the

42:32

Holy Spirit and spoke in other languages, a lot of the Charismatic ideas of what's going on today would fall by the wayside.

42:43

Although there are stories about it, and even though there are cell phones everywhere in Africa and India, and all around the world, there's no evidence of someone who doesn't know a language being filled with the

42:57

Spirit and speaking in a language known to the people that they've never learned themselves.

43:04

Of course, you hear anecdotal stories about it. I remember the late

43:09

Chuck Smith of the Calvary Chapel group, which is, admittedly, even a much more reserved form of the

43:19

Charismatic movement. You might not even ever hear anyone speaking in tongues or doing anything bizarre or dancing or anything like that in the

43:28

Calvary Chapel. But I remember reading, I think it might have even been Chuck Smith's own critique of the

43:35

Charismatic movement, where he, in validating some of the experiences, said that someone close to him understood the

43:48

French language who he had never learned, or either he or she had never learned before when someone was speaking in tongues or something like that.

43:57

I mean, you hear these kinds of things, but they're not like, there's no rock -solid proof that's ever provided. And there should be.

44:03

That's my point. It should be happening all the time. If that's exactly what's happening when someone is speaking in a tongue, then we should be able to capture that.

44:15

Whether it's a tribe in Africa who have cell phones, or India or China or some other part where they have a distinct dialect, we should be tripping over the evidence.

44:27

Right. In fact, if it's not a real language, an earthly language, if it is merely the angelic language that many of the

44:37

Charismatics and Pentecostals claim that some of their tongues are, in fact, most of their tongues are, that is not a sign.

44:45

How can it be a miraculous sign if anybody can easily fake it?

44:54

That's not a sign if it could be easily faked. In fact, it's kind of interesting, and most people who do it don't even fake it well.

45:02

I was just in Manhattan recently, and when I was getting back to Penn Station, there was this large group of Asian folks, predominantly women, holding signs.

45:15

The signs were very good, repent and believe upon Christ and you'll be saved, that kind of thing. But I could even tell that these

45:21

Asian people were speaking in tongues and not their Asian language because they were just repeating syllables over and over and over again.

45:29

In fact, even if it was an angelic language, they would be saying the same two or three words over and over and over and over and over and over again.

45:38

Yeah, yeah. Well, do you want to move on yet to the second deception?

45:44

I think they'll keep going on that because you mentioned the tongues of angels, and I think even there, there's a misinterpretation of the text in 1

45:53

Corinthians 13 where it's found where Paul is really using hyperbole to say, should

46:02

I even, or should someone speak in the tongues or the languages of angels but have not love, he's nothing.

46:12

And in context, he's not saying people are actually doing this. He's saying, should someone be doing that and they have not love, it means nothing.

46:22

There's no basis on which to build a doctrine out of that verse. You mean just like where he is warning the

46:29

Galatians that even if I or an angel from heaven gives you another gospel, well, Paul never did give them another.

46:36

But at the same time, before we depart from that, I have... Or move mountains in context, even if I have faith to move a mountain.

46:44

Again, he's using hyperbole. There's no record of Christians moving physical mountains by their prayers.

46:51

He's using hyperbole even in that context. Right. Do you rule out, because there are cessationists that have,

47:01

I have heard at least a few, when they refer to that verse, they are saying that the original

47:09

Greek term for angel doesn't necessarily mean the divine being, the non -human being, because the word can be used as a messenger.

47:19

Mm -hmm. I've heard that. I've heard that. But I think it is referring to angels, which is why just about all of the

47:27

English translations I know put it that way. Okay. And now we move on to the second charismatic deception.

47:37

Charismatics listen for disembodied voices apart from Scripture. Yeah, what

47:44

I'm trying to say there is that really is the life of the charismatic. He or she is making their decisions based on what they're hearing between their ears as their own thoughts.

47:58

And they go by a verse that Jesus said, which is always a good thing to do, but really you should do it when you understand the verse in its setting.

48:08

And that's a verse that says, my sheep hear my voice. It's as simple as that. In fact, that was one of the pushbacks

48:15

I received when I listed these seven is, how can what you're saying be true?

48:21

The Bible says, Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice. But again,

48:26

I responded by saying, you're putting a charismatic understanding on the interpretation of that verse.

48:33

You're seeing that verse as saying, every sheep hears the voice of Jesus between their ears.

48:42

But that's not what it says. It says, they hear his voice. Okay. Take a step back.

48:48

Where are you likely to hear the voice? Between your ears? Does the Bible actually say that?

48:54

It doesn't. But here's where I know we have his voice in the Bible and the true sheep will hear his voice as the word of God is preached, where it's read and proclaimed and interpreted and preached in the sense that they can hear it.

49:12

Faith comes by hearing what? Something between our ears? No. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, the word of Christ, the message of Christ, and the true sheep will hear the voice of the shepherd as the word of God is proclaimed.

49:27

Again, they're building their doctrine on just a dime of real estate here, misinterpreting,

49:35

I believe, what the scripture intended to communicate. So right there,

49:40

I remember someone saying, when I said, can we meet for coffee?

49:46

I'd like to talk about a certain thing. And they said, well, let me check in with the Lord. And a few seconds later, after a bit of silence, they said, the

49:57

Lord just said that we can meet at 730, but he wants me to go somewhere else at nine.

50:07

And it's as little as that. They've got a thought and it has to be God speaking to them.

50:12

And anything less is a non -spiritual Christian. And to them, that's the height of Christian maturity to be led by the

50:21

Holy Spirit. And if you see it now as you and I would, it's foolishness.

50:27

But to them, it's the height of maturity. The Lord is directing every one of my steps. I've met people that had a blue sock and a black sock on, and that was because the

50:41

Lord told them to do that. Well, I do that all the time, because I'm colorblind. That's right.

50:47

In fact, we put our socks on in the dark, you know. By the way, I don't know if you've heard of my book that I wrote.

50:55

You, of course, are familiar with James White's classic book, The Same Sex Controversy.

51:03

Well, I wrote a book on my tragic struggle with colorblindness called The Same Socks Controversy.

51:09

Oh, God. Oh, wow. Well, anyway, I'm sorry.

51:16

So sports fans, they've got an issue because there's the Boston Red Socks and... Like the

51:22

White Socks. Yeah, there we go. See, I've got a problem. Well, we will be going to our midway break right now.

51:33

It's a longer break than our normal break because of the fact that Grace Life Radio 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us an elongated break between our two segments, and they have to air their own commercials and their own public service announcements.

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So please be patient with us as we go to this elongated break, but use this time wisely during this elongated break not only to write questions for our guest,

52:04

Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, but also to write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more successfully and frequently patronize them because the more you patronize our advertisers, the longer they are likely to remain on the air as our advertisers and their funds are what keep this program on the air in addition to the generous donations sent in by many of you who listen.

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So as I said, write down your questions for John Sampson to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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and also write down the information provided by our advertisers.

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Don't go away. God willing, we will be right back after these messages from our sponsors with John Sampson and seven charismatic deceptions.

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

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I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

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It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in midtown

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If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

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New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

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.nyc. Have a great day. Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

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I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

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Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

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Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

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He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

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He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

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I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

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Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878, 1 -800 -669 -4878, or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:03:33

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

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cvbbs .com. Before we return to our discussion with John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, on seven charismatic deceptions,

01:06:08

I want to remind you about a couple of very important events. First of all, don't forget to tune in tomorrow to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio from 4 to 6 p .m.

01:06:17

to hear our brother Morris Roberts, the former editor of Banner of Truth magazine, very well known globally as a

01:06:27

Banner of Truth conference speaker and Banner of Truth author. He's also an author now with Reformation Heritage Books.

01:06:35

Well, he will be speaking tomorrow on his book published by Banner of Truth, Finding Peace with God, Justification Explained.

01:06:43

So make sure you mark your calendar for tomorrow for the Morris Roberts interview. Then coming up in August, which is right around the corner, the 2nd through the 4th of August, the

01:06:55

Fellowship Conference New England returns to the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine.

01:07:01

And the speakers at this conference are all men who have been guests on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, Pastor Tim Conway of Grace Community Church, San Antonio, Texas, Pastor Mac Tomlinson, who's an author and pastor of Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, Pastor Jesse Barrington, pastor of Grace Life Church in Dallas, Texas, an author and pastor

01:07:22

Nate Pikowitz of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmonton Ironworks, New Hampshire.

01:07:29

That's August 2nd through the 4th at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine. If you want to register, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

01:07:39

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. And then coming up in November on the 9th and the 10th, the Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology will be held at the

01:07:46

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania. The theme this year is the glory of the cross.

01:07:52

I will be there, God willing, with an Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio exhibitors booth. And the speakers include

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David Garner, Ray Ortland, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Nguyen. If you'd like to for the glory of the cross conference at Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania on November 9th and the 10th, go to alliancenet .org,

01:08:14

alliancenet .org. Then coming up in January, this is an event that I will once again,

01:08:22

God willing, be where I will be manning an exhibitors booth from Thursday, January 17th through Saturday, January 19th at the

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Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, which is a suburb of Atlanta. That's the

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G3 Conference, which stands for gospel, grace, and glory. And the theme is the mission of God, God's way of doing missions.

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And the speakers include Paul Washer, John Piper, Stephen J. Lawson, Vody Baucom, Conrad M.

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Bayway, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson of Grace to You Ministries, the ministry of John MacArthur, Josh Bice, the founder and director of the

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G3 Conference, Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Stephen Nichols, who is the president of Reformation Bible College, the

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Bible College founded by the late Dr. R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, and many more are on that lineup.

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To register, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com, and not only register for your attendance, but if you have a ministry or a business that you'd like to promote amongst the 4 ,000 to 5 ,000 people that they are expecting to be there, and you want to have an exhibitor's booth there just like I will be,

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Manning, then register for your exhibitor's booth there as well as your attendance registration.

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That's g3conference .com, g3conference .com. Please tell all of these organizations that you heard about their events from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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01:11:10

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01:11:53

On our topic today, seven charismatic deceptions, our email address is chrisorensen at gmail .com,

01:12:00

chrisorensen at gmail .com. And before we return to the list that you have created,

01:12:08

Pastor John, we do have a listener in Slovenia, Joe in Slovenia, who has a question for you.

01:12:16

And Joe in Slovenia says, and I'm enlarging his tiny microscopic font.

01:12:26

Dear brothers, based on the seven deceptions, should we conclude that as a movement, charismaticism is sub -Christian or even worse?

01:12:36

If so, how so? If not, why not? Thank you both for guarding the faith.

01:12:43

Well, some of that you addressed in the very beginning, that this is not a monolithic group.

01:12:49

I would be, you can answer this the way you want to, but I would be very hesitant to just blanketly say that as a sub -Christian movement or worse, because there's so many different kinds of charismatics and charismatic churches and charismatic denominations and Pentecostal denominations.

01:13:08

And in fact, there are Reform Baptist churches that I would not want to join, not necessarily because of something that they believe or teach, but perhaps just the way that they function.

01:13:18

They may have an authoritarian dictatorship going on or something. I mean, there's all kinds of...

01:13:24

Yes. You can't really broad -brush people, but how would you answer that? I do believe it's an intramural debate within the

01:13:33

Christian community, very much so. Although there are so many extremes in the charismatic ranks that some would actually be outside of the faith, it comes back to what kind of doctrinal position they have on the

01:13:49

Trinity, on what the true gospel is, the person of Christ, these big, big things. We're talking about very important, and I would say even vital things, but not things that would take them outside of the

01:14:01

Christian faith per se. Would you say that one of the main problems with the charismatic movement is because of the fact, whether they say this or not,

01:14:12

I mean, most of them that I know or have heard would never say this or admit this, but I think that whether they say it or admit it or not, it's true, the fact that they do not believe in the sufficiency of Scripture, and that very thing can lead to more bizarre and extremely heretical beliefs than you would typically find those outside of their movement drifting into, if you follow what

01:14:44

I'm saying. Yeah, I do. I think that's absolutely the case. I think one thing to bear in mind, we haven't talked about this, but the

01:14:51

Judaizers, from all accounts of what we can read and glean from the Book of Galatians, they would be what we would call in our day, charismatics.

01:15:01

We're going back 2 ,000 years, or at least 1900, but these were people that were experienced in the life of the

01:15:10

Church, the gifts of the Holy Spirit moving. There's no evidence that that was not the case.

01:15:18

In fact, it seems to be the case very much so, and yet they held to a false gospel.

01:15:24

So just because someone speaks in tongues or can move in some of these so -called gifts does not mean they're fellow brothers and sisters.

01:15:34

Paul would not recognize the Judaizers, who seem to be experiencing the gifts, as fellow brothers.

01:15:41

He would not do that. I remember just saying about this, there is a great wing of the

01:15:47

Church, the Roman Catholic Church, where they are more than open to the charismatic movement.

01:15:53

In fact, it has borne, I would say the word fruit, but what kind of fruit, that's to be discussed, but there's a lot.

01:16:02

There's hundreds and hundreds of thousands of charismatic Roman Catholics. And as I understand it, if someone is by a definition a

01:16:12

Roman Catholic and they understand the issues involved in the doctrine of the gospel and justification by faith alone, and they're against that, they don't hold to that, they're not my brother, they're not my sister, no matter what.

01:16:27

And I remember hearing stories of people who were going out from certain Protestant churches who were supposedly filled with the

01:16:35

Holy Spirit, and their whole ambition in going into the Roman Catholic wing of the

01:16:41

Church was to have meetings whereby they would be able to have these Catholics, Roman Catholics, filled with the

01:16:48

Holy Spirit, speak in tongues. And the idea was, if they're exposed to this experience, and they're filled with the

01:16:55

Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will direct them towards orthodoxy, towards the biblical gospel.

01:17:02

And the way they did this, Chris, this literally happened. I remember hearing the testimony of a man who went into a

01:17:08

Roman Catholic Church and say, you want to marry? Let's honor

01:17:13

Mary. Where was Mary on the day of Pentecost? She was amongst the 120, and she was filled with the

01:17:20

Holy Spirit, and spoke in other tongues. You can have that same experience. Be like Mary, and that's exactly what happened, and these

01:17:30

Roman Catholics were supposedly filled with the Holy Spirit. But what it made was people who were much more enthusiastic about Mary than they were before the

01:17:40

Protestant minister went there. Yeah, that's a very important thing to highlight, because there are evangelical

01:17:48

Protestants who are under the misconception that the charismatic Catholic movement is somehow safer because they may or may not, again, we can't broad brush, but they may be more inclined to have

01:18:03

Bible studies. They may or may not. They may be more inclined to actually carry

01:18:08

Bibles with them, that kind of a thing. But as you just said, they sometimes are even more militant in their views of Marian adoration and the veneration of idols and relics and all kinds of things.

01:18:27

They are also the Franciscan Seminary of Steubenville, Ohio, the

01:18:37

Franciscan University of Steubenville. That has been a main hub, a major hub of apologetics activity.

01:18:48

They are also a very key institution promoting the charismatic

01:18:55

Catholic movement. And you have some of the more ardent, determined Catholics from out of that charismatic group that want to lure

01:19:08

Protestants back into the Roman Catholic Church or into, for the first time, the Roman Catholic Church.

01:19:14

So this is not some safe ground. The Lord in his providence has used the charismatic

01:19:21

Catholic movement to get Catholics to read their Bibles, and they have left the Catholic Church, but at the same time, it's not safe.

01:19:30

Exactly right. Exactly right. Just to say even more on this, it's troubling, because it does make more devoted Roman Catholics.

01:19:42

Again, think of the Book of Galatians. I remember a conversation I had online with a minister

01:19:48

I knew from the 1980s and 90s back in England, and he was hearing what

01:19:54

I was saying, and he said, I've gone away and I've had some prayer time, and I had a little picture for you,

01:20:01

John. This is kind of the language that is used. I had a picture for you. I said, oh yeah, what was that? And I saw a picture of Jesus with a clipboard outside a church, and he was saying, yes, you're in, and no, you're not in, depending on your doctrine.

01:20:19

And he said, that is how you're portraying Jesus. You're not open to the experience that I'm talking about, because you've got this

01:20:30

Jesus with a clipboard view of God. And I said, do you mind if I respond to this?

01:20:36

You're saying this is a word from the Lord? Or yes, he said, this is a picture I had from the Lord for you,

01:20:42

John. I said, may I respond? He said, yes. I said, I can respond in one word.

01:20:47

He said, what's that? I said, Galatians. He didn't know what to do with that, because in Galatians, there's the

01:20:56

Apostle Paul who is talking to people with shared experiences and is bringing them back to doctrine, the truth of the gospel.

01:21:06

And he didn't know what to do with that, except he unfriended me on Facebook, the worst possible thing.

01:21:14

Yeah, that is a very key letter to keep returning to, because...

01:21:22

The Holy Spirit that authored Galatians, and I said to him, he says, where's the

01:21:27

Lord, John? I said, do you think the Apostle Paul knew about life? You know where he talks of the fruit of the

01:21:34

Spirit? It's in that book of Galatians. He saw no discrepancy, no contrast between saying, you must believe the true gospel, and then saying, the fruit of the

01:21:45

Spirit is love. There was no contradiction, Paul. Right, and that is also, I think, a necessary letter to keep returning to in our day and age of modern ecumenism, where people are saying, people are saying, we've got to link arms with the

01:22:00

Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox, and even sometimes the Mormons and others, because we are surrounded by homosexuals and abortionists and feminists and all kinds of things, so we've got to have a louder voice in our 21st century era by linking arms.

01:22:19

But if you look back at the Church of Galatia, the church was a tiny minority back then, and Paul did not justify ecumenism with the

01:22:30

Judaizers just because they were a minority being persecuted. Right, and they had many things in common.

01:22:38

They would believe Jesus was the Messiah, that he was raised from the dead, they could sing all of the songs and hymns and choruses of the early churches, just as James White said so well, they added one thing to the gospel, happened to be circumcision, and Paul said, or Paul wrote, no, no, this is a false gospel, and he would have nothing to do with them.

01:23:03

Well, at least he could say that the Judaizers weren't in the seeker -sensitive movement, because that's not exactly an appealing thing to draw people into membership.

01:23:12

Very true. Yeah, let's move on to the third charismatic deception.

01:23:20

Charismatics preach about what these disembodied voices tell them apart from Scripture.

01:23:26

Did you already include that in your response to the second deception, or is this something...

01:23:33

It's kind of linked. I think we can be brief about this. I remember just a few weeks ago, just changing channels on a

01:23:40

Sunday night, I had an evening off, and just looking at some of the things that were taking place.

01:23:45

Came across a church in town that will be nameless to protect the guilty, but what was happening was this man,

01:23:53

I watched for about 10 minutes, he was just so enthusiastic about what the

01:24:00

Lord had shown him, and for me, when I hear that, I'm thinking, well, there's illumination as we study the

01:24:08

Scriptures, and we're going to the Scriptures for that, and we could say, yes, the Lord has shown me in terms of interpreting the

01:24:15

Scripture correctly. That can be some insight rather than revelation, but he was literally talking about things that had happened between his ears.

01:24:26

Five statements that he felt the Lord had given him that he was now, as the pastor, giving to the church, and in the 10 minutes,

01:24:33

I heard no Scripture. I just heard five sentences that he felt were words from God, and I thought, that is the height of everything that is anti -Sola

01:24:47

Scriptura. The Scripture alone is the Word of God. I don't, I'm not even interested in what happens between my ears.

01:24:54

Of all people, you're most likely to be influenced by what happens in your own thinking, but I'm not interested.

01:25:02

I want to know, what does God say in his Word? Plus nothing.

01:25:08

I just want to know what that says, and my job as a preacher is to rightly proclaim it, apply it to people's lives, and then that's it.

01:25:18

There's nothing more. I'm not interested in my opinions, in my current thoughts, what happened as I slept last night.

01:25:27

I want to know what God has said, and the idea that you preach about what happens between your ears, these voices, the words that I've thought, words that come to me, or ideas, that's

01:25:41

God speaking. That is so dangerous, and outside of what the Bible says regarding the sufficiency of Scripture.

01:25:49

Second Timothy 3, you know it well. The Scripture is able to make you competent for every good work, equipped for every good work, everything you need for your life, for your ministry,

01:26:02

Timothy, you'll find it in the Scripture, not what happens between your ears. Amen.

01:26:09

And it's a testimony, really, to the fact that all of these people relying on extra -biblical experience and knowledge and wisdom, even if they would never say it in words again, they are really saying that the

01:26:27

Bible is insufficient. They are claiming that the

01:26:33

Scriptures are not containing the unfathomable riches of Christ, as we hear

01:26:41

Paul speak of in Ephesians chapter 3. People are acting as if they have plumbed to the depths of the

01:26:50

Bible, have exhausted all the riches from the Scriptures that they can glean and bring to the surface, so now we need something else.

01:27:00

And you could never, as long as you live, you could live to 150 years old and study the

01:27:06

Bible 12 hours a day, and you'll never exhaust the riches that the

01:27:14

Scriptures provide in regard to Christ. So true. That's true of the entire

01:27:21

Bible, and it's true of most of the verses in the Bible. Right. Well, we are going to be now entering into our final commercial break, and if you'd like to ask a question of John Sampson before we run out of time, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:27:37

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:27:43

USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with more of John Sampson and seven charismatic deceptions.

01:28:18

Play and together. Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Waldeman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

01:28:26

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01:28:35

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Spread the word about FirstLoveRadio .org. Welcome back.

01:35:04

This is Chris Arnzen, and we have about 25 minutes left. Featuring John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

01:35:15

We are continuing our topic, Seven Charismatic Deceptions. If you'd like to join us on the air, please speak now or forever hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:35:25

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

01:35:31

We have a listener, Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who asks a question that, in fact, it may also be a part of your testimony interview that people can refer to after the show is over.

01:35:47

If you go to ironsharpensironradio .com and you look in the past shows podcast archive and type in S -A -M -S -O -N for John Sampson, you can find his testimony on how he left the

01:36:03

Word of Faith Pentecostal movement. But Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, wants to know, what do you think you were doing as a charismatic when you were speaking in tongues now that you have become a cessationist?

01:36:18

Do you think that this was a supernatural phenomenon that was from the devil? Do you think that you were just mimicking others so that you will be more accepted?

01:36:29

Were you consciously faking things like tongues? That's a very good question.

01:36:35

I think it was a made -up language of my mind.

01:36:41

I don't think I was involved in anything on a spiritual level at all. So in other words, you don't think it was satanic either?

01:36:48

No, no. I think it's just a complete waste of time. Were you conscious of that while you were doing it, though?

01:36:54

Were you just going, you know, untie my bow tie a hundred times knowing that you were faking it? Yeah, I should have bought a

01:37:00

Honda. I should have bought a Honda. I remember being coached as a teenager, and that's again one of the points.

01:37:09

A man who had a so -called specialty in getting people filled with the

01:37:15

Spirit took 15 or 20 minutes with me, coaching me to say some vows out loud after he prayed for me.

01:37:24

And if I said anything, he was just absolutely excited and just said, that's it.

01:37:30

Just keep doing it. You'll get more of a flow. And it really is just,

01:37:36

I look back, gibberish. That's all it was. And that's all went through my mind.

01:37:42

And the counsel was, go by what you know is true from the

01:37:48

Scripture, misinterpreted now, I understand, rather than what is happening between your ears, the mind.

01:37:54

And so there's this real energetic preacher who would say, listen to the

01:38:03

Scripture and speak it out and say it like you mean it, because this is a heavenly language and it's only the devil who's trying to discourage you when you doubt these things.

01:38:15

So I look back and think, rather than it being satanic, although I do believe there are such things as satanic tongues and people who embrace false

01:38:25

Gospels, not only in the New Age movement, but some of the cults, it's not unusual for Mormons to speak in tongues, for Roman Catholics who deny justification by faith alone to speak in tongues.

01:38:40

It's not evidence for the Holy Spirit. And I just look back at it as a waste of time.

01:38:47

Well, thank you, Susan Margaret. Let's go back to our list before we run out of time.

01:38:54

This is also something that you may have already touched on, because it's very similar to previous deceptions that you used.

01:39:01

But Charismatics follow guidance from disembodied voices apart from Scripture.

01:39:07

Do we need to address that, or have you already covered that? I think we've covered it.

01:39:13

I perhaps can relate one experience I had, and that was there was a man I was training up in ministry, just like a

01:39:21

Paul with a Timothy, and I was a little bit older and I was instructing him with actually, I was encouraging him in the ministry of preaching and teaching.

01:39:31

We'd actually gone to India together to do large Gospel outreach meetings, and he'd preach for 15 minutes and I would follow on.

01:39:40

And so we had a very strong friendship and relationship, and I actually would have called him perhaps my best friend at the time.

01:39:48

And what happened was one Tuesday, he invited me to lunch and said, Are you free?

01:39:53

And I said, Well, I see something's happened. Yeah, I can come for lunch. Yeah, let's go.

01:39:59

And he took me to lunch and during the course of the meal, he said, Well, he says, I got up this morning and I was just having a time with the

01:40:07

Lord. And he spoke to me and said, I need to leave this church.

01:40:13

This church being the church I was pastoring. And to this day, it was and is a devastating blow.

01:40:23

And I asked him, why would he be even thinking that? And he says, he wasn't thinking about it.

01:40:29

It's just a thought that came to him. He believed it was the Lord and he's going to act on it. And that was a

01:40:35

Tuesday and he had already had his last meeting at the church because the

01:40:41

Lord had spoken to him. He'd used the God card. And I said to him, Well, you've thrown this

01:40:48

God card on the table. Nothing I can say is anywhere near the authority of God.

01:40:54

And if he's spoken to you, you have to obey. And I left that place thinking, You know what

01:40:59

I am? I'm a victim of my own teaching. I'm the one who taught him to listen for a voice, to listen to the thoughts and take heed to the thoughts that are happening between your ears.

01:41:13

And that's what I look back on now as the case. I really was a victim of my own doctrine, what

01:41:21

I taught him. It leads to flakiness.

01:41:27

There's no other way to talk about it. There was no reason for him to leave. I don't know what the fruit in his life has been since he's left.

01:41:34

There's been no real contact. And I'm thinking two decades on, how shallow a walk with the

01:41:42

Lord is that at any moment, someone who's supposedly committed to the cause just ups and leaves.

01:41:49

And people do that with marriages. People do that with jobs. People do this with very serious things because of something they think they've heard from the

01:42:00

Lord. So it really is, while it doesn't put someone outside of the Christian faith, it is vital we understand we need to be biblically grounded in the area of guidance and so -called messages from the

01:42:13

Lord. By the way, it's very blatantly and patently obvious that your enumerization of the list that you have was not divinely inspired because there's an error in it.

01:42:27

You have two number fives. Yeah, well, that's because I believe there are three types of people in this world.

01:42:37

Those who can count and those who cannot. Oh, you just reminded me of the holy hand grenade of my python.

01:42:57

I saw that just before the program and I corrected it on the website and I couldn't believe

01:43:03

I'd done that. And it's unchanged where you're reading it, but I've made that change on my website.

01:43:10

Yeah, it's definitely fallible words I'm using. I make up words all the time on the show.

01:43:19

Um, anyway, well, we have now, of course, when you say charismatic experience has supremacy over scripture, we have to remind our listeners that you're not saying that pastors necessarily say that from their point of view.

01:43:38

It's just it's the practical outworking. In fact, I would say that this is a much more broader problem and heresy than the confines of the charismatic and Pentecostal movement.

01:43:54

You have many modern evangelicals who just in practice act that way, that you're their experience is trumping scripture.

01:44:03

You have liberals doing that. When James White debated Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State on the theme is homosexuality compatible with biblical

01:44:16

Christianity, Barry Lynn admitted that the biblical content of the issue of homosexuality all clearly refutes or condemns,

01:44:32

I should say, homosexual activity. But he had a fresh new word from the Holy Spirit that told him that now in the 21st century, this is no longer the case.

01:44:42

So, I mean, you have this kind of an attitude. But anyway, if you could continue on with your specific intention with that.

01:44:52

I think to really harness what I'm trying to say, you mentioned

01:45:01

Dr. James White, who's been such a blessing to both yourself and myself in the area of doctrine and understanding the scripture.

01:45:09

And I remember a man who was very charismatic visiting our home, and I happened to be watching one of Dr.

01:45:17

James White's debates. And I was loving every moment of it, thinking this man, because he believes the

01:45:23

Bible, would love it too. Well, after five minutes, he said, John, he says, I can't stand anymore.

01:45:30

I said, what are you talking about? He said, this guy you're listening to, what's his name? I said, well,

01:45:36

James White. He says, I cannot listen to the guy. I said, why? He says, there is no anointing whatsoever.

01:45:46

And I didn't know what to do with that. I said, but what he's saying is biblical. And he said, here's his response.

01:45:52

I don't care. I'm feeling nothing as he's saying what he's saying.

01:45:59

And I'm thinking, that is the exact mindset of the charismatic, and I'm talking in broad terms, but it's experience -based, it's based on what

01:46:11

I'm feeling at the moment, rather than, and this is what I said to him, but is what he's saying right according to the scripture?

01:46:18

Is he misinterpreting the scripture? And he says, I don't know that. And here's where I part ways.

01:46:25

He said, I'm not interested in that. He was interested more in his experience, what he felt as he's hearing, happened to be

01:46:34

James White, could be anybody. He's gauging the truth of what someone is saying by what he himself is feeling as the words are going forth.

01:46:45

And for me, I don't care what I'm feeling. I want to know, is what is being said true according to the scriptures in their context?

01:46:55

I want to know what the Bible says. So the charismatic, and this again is broad strokes, that's not where they're looking.

01:47:03

They're not looking to uncover the text and go deep into the text and study the background and the historical ideas at the time and to really understand the verse and its setting and reading the verses before and afterwards and making sure we're interpreting it correctly.

01:47:21

It's an experience -driven movement at its core. Well, we have, let's see here.

01:47:31

We have the charismatic's subjective feelings is the gauge by which objective scripture is interpreted.

01:47:42

Yeah, and I think in that we're saying something again very similar. The gauge is the feeling.

01:47:48

Someone might say, but I have this impression, I've got this idea, and I need to date this girl because she makes me hum at night.

01:48:04

And we ask questions like, well, is this, you're a believer? Yes. Is this a fellow believer?

01:48:10

Well, she's on her way, I'm sure. I believe the Lord will use this dating process to bring her into the fold and all of that.

01:48:20

But really, as I go to the scripture, 2

01:48:25

Corinthians 6, 14, if I remember correctly, says don't be unequally yoked with an unbeliever.

01:48:31

And if you're in any way thinking of marriage, you've got no business marrying someone who is not yet a

01:48:41

Christian. And for many, experience trumps scripture.

01:48:48

They have a feeling, they have an idea in their brain, something's rattled between their ears, and scripture is left without its authority.

01:49:02

It has not got the authority it should have in the Christian life, because I've had an experience,

01:49:08

I've had a dream. The Lord has said, now I'm saying, no he hasn't. Where I know

01:49:13

God has spoken is the Word of God and nowhere else. In the person of Jesus, yes,

01:49:19

Hebrew speaks of Jesus as his word in that sense, his last word.

01:49:25

In these last days he's spoken in his son. But where we find out where God is speaking is right there between the pages of the

01:49:32

Old and New Testament. Rightly interpreted, of course, but that's where we know God is speaking and we test everything by the

01:49:41

Word of God. But more than that, I'm saying you don't need to go outside of the Word. God speaks in and by and through the

01:49:49

Word of God. And again, that can be very true of just your average modern evangelical or individual that does not even have any connection to the charismatic movement.

01:50:04

In fact, I know Roman Catholics that will bet their life on the validity of the

01:50:13

Marian apparitions that occur, like those that have occurred in Fatima and also

01:50:22

Medjugorje. Although even Roman Catholics very vociferously disagree with each other on Medjugorje, there are more conservative and traditionalist

01:50:34

Catholics who believe that that is a satanic apparition, believe it or not. But I have a friend who's a

01:50:41

Catholic who has said the visions, the apparitions cannot be false because Mary is telling people to follow her son

01:50:53

Jesus. Now, that's a really absurd way of putting a seal of approval on it because most false teachers within Christendom are telling people to follow

01:51:03

Jesus. Now we go on to, unity is based on shared experience rather than the true doctrine about God and the true gospel.

01:51:15

That's very true because I think a glaring example is Trinity Broadcasting Network, where you have even

01:51:21

Oneness Pentecostals having programs on that network, ironically, even though it's called the

01:51:28

Trinity Broadcasting. But if you could, and you are on the Trinity Broadcasting Network. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:51:34

Yeah, I look back and we all know of what was called the Toronto Blessing in the 90s, very prevalent, and people were sending folks from their church to Toronto to have this experience.

01:51:49

And for those that don't know what that is referring to, it's very obscene experiences of laughing and of just unusual experiences to the point where there was supposedly people barking like dogs, and this was evidence of the

01:52:12

Holy Spirit at work, and just people doing some very unusual, inhumane in the sense

01:52:18

I'm using the words, people not acting like men and women. And yet the fruit of it is seen in not changed lives, although people say, you know,

01:52:32

I laughed so long and I was healed of all of the bad things that happened in my childhood.

01:52:38

Okay, time allows us to look back and see the fruit. As a pastor, as you, as a talk show host, a

01:52:48

Christian talk show host, we can analyze these things after 10, 20 years.

01:52:54

And when I ask questions like, has the Toronto Blessing, so -called, brought about a deep devotion to Christ and the truth of God found in the scripture?

01:53:07

Here's what I'm thinking. There's one photograph that says exactly what is taking place, and that is a picture

01:53:16

I saw not too long ago of John Arnott, who was the pastor at Toronto Airport Vineyard, where it was the hub of this movement.

01:53:29

And it's a picture of John Arnott side -by -side with the current Pope, and they're embracing as brothers in the

01:53:38

Lord. And I'm thinking, that right there is the fruit. 20 years on, that's the fruit.

01:53:46

There is no discernment as to the biblical gospel. And here's the problem I have with that.

01:53:52

I know I don't have unity in the gospel with the Pope. And for someone who says they do, the question now becomes, well, you say you do, do

01:54:05

I really have fellowship and unity in the gospel with you? Because I know I don't have that with the

01:54:11

Roman Catholic Church. The official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church.

01:54:17

And you say, well, what about the Pope? Could he be a saved person? Well, it's to ask this question, is the

01:54:22

Pope a Catholic? Does he believe Catholic doctrine? And the doctrine, the official doctrine of the

01:54:32

Roman Catholic Church still in force today is justification by faith alone, which is what

01:54:38

I believe is under the anathema of God, according to Roman Catholic teaching.

01:54:44

And so I don't have unity. And so there has been no love for the scripture, love for the truth of God, love for the biblical gospel in all of that.

01:54:55

And so number six on this outline, unity is based on shared experience. If I've had the same experience, then hey, let's forget our doctrinal differences at the expense of God and at the expense of his true gospel.

01:55:11

Amen. We have finally, charismatics embrace flagrant heretics as brothers and sisters at the expense of the true

01:55:25

God and the true gospel. And obviously, again, not all charismatics do that.

01:55:30

In fact, the assemblies of God excommunicated the oneness

01:55:37

Pentecostals in the earlier part of the 20th century.

01:55:44

And so you do have varying degrees of this happening. In fact, I heard a very excellent

01:55:53

YouTube discussion by a charismatic pastor on why he totally refutes and denounces the ministry of, is it

01:56:06

Bill Jones? Is that his name? Famous charismatic preacher, Bill Jones. I can't remember right now.

01:56:12

If you don't know his name, I can't remember at the top of my head. I'm not sure. But anyway, but if you could touch on that, and of course, this is just a problem with modern evangelicals also.

01:56:25

I mean, look at what Billy Graham did for, I mean, he paved the way for ecumenical relations amongst conservative evangelicals with those outside of historic

01:56:42

Christianity like no one else I could think of in history because the ecumenical movement was really the stronghold of the liberals for such a long time.

01:56:57

And Billy Graham came on the scene and he has people sitting on his platform that don't even believe in the deity of Christ, that don't even believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone, who don't even believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ sitting on his platform.

01:57:17

People have said to me, oh, well, why wouldn't you want those people to be there to hear the gospel?

01:57:23

What was the difference between being there to hear the gospel and being seated on a platform where you are being viewed as an authority and a possessor of truth, eternal truth?

01:57:37

That cannot be overlooked in the history and legacy of Billy Graham. But anyway, and he was non -charismatic, but anyway, if you could just touch on that before we go off the air because we're running out of time.

01:57:48

Yeah, well, you said it all so well. I think TVN is the showcase of that. It didn't matter if you're a heretic, if you had a shared experience, you're welcome.

01:57:59

People were not asked, show me your doctrinal statement. No, can you whoop it up?

01:58:07

Can you take a good offering? And I understand because of my involvement that there were people that were hired by certain television stations simply because they were good at raising money.

01:58:24

The issue of whether they preached the same trinity was not on the table.

01:58:30

That's not an issue. As long as you could do something that would benefit the network, you were welcome.

01:58:38

And on and on we could go. I could list conference after conference. I remember a conference with a banner, unity through signs and wonders.

01:58:48

No, that's not the basis of unity. But denominations coming together on the basis of shared experience and people might bristle at these seven things, but I believe

01:58:59

I can back them up at least in certain sections of the charismatic wing. All of these things are present, and I would say turn back to the scripture.

01:59:13

Why would we be in any way interested in fallible human prophecy when we have the

01:59:19

Word of God, which is without error, infallible, life -giving? And to go somewhere else and think that we need something else is to undermine the true nature of what scripture is.

01:59:35

And we're out of time now, brother, and your website is kingschurchaz .com.

01:59:41

Kingschurchaz .com. Don't forget you can order books by John Sampson at solid -ground -books .com.

01:59:47

Thank you so much. I want to thank everybody who listened and wrote in questions, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater