Road Trip Radio Free Geneva!

You constantly hear people that are Calvinist harp on this. Mwah, mwah, God's sovereign, God's sovereign, mwah, sovereign, sovereign, sovereign.

They just keep repeating it. And they repeat it so much, you start to think it's a biblical tree. ♪ I will burn in your name ♪

Jesus stands outside the tomb of Lazarus. He says, Lazarus, come out. And Lazarus said, I can't,

I'm dead. That's not what he did. Lazarus came out. Do you mean to tell me a dead person can respond to the command of Christ?

♪ For still I retain faith ♪ And then you take lessons from Judas White and Jeff Durtbin.

It shows in this kind of sequential format. And, bleh, bleh, bleh. ♪ His cross and power ♪

Do you really believe that it parallels the method of exegesis that we utilize to demonstrate those other things?

No. ♪ All earth is mine ♪ Calvinists, even pastors, very openly smoke pipes and cigars just as they drink beer and wine.

♪ Can we ♪ Even Jesus cannot override your unbelief

He wouldn't make any sense to him a self -righteous legalistic deceived

Realize that he's gone from predeterminism now He's speaking of some kind of middle knowledge that God now has to I deny and categorize

Categorically deny middle don't beg the question that would demand me to force you to embrace it

Not always talking about necessarily God choosing something for no apparent reason

But you're choosing that meat because it's a favorable meat. There's a reason to have the choice of that meat Bunker deep beneath the faculty cafeteria at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary Safe from all those moderate

Calvinist Dave Hunt fans and those who have read and reread George Bryson's book We are radio broadcasting the truth about God's freedom to say for his own eternal glory

You know, what we need to do is we need to tell Tim that we need to come up with a new version

And we need to move the bunker underneath the faculty cafeteria of Trinity Bible Colleges But they don't have a cafeteria.

So I'd be about as real as where the bunker is I suppose. Oh Yes, and now now the middle knowledge thing was that's that's even better.

Now. It has more meaning to it. Well Welcome to radio free Geneva here road trip edition

I My recollection is this is the first one we've done on The road

I think I don't do you remember you don't you know, yeah, I think it's first one first one good.

I am Somewhere in Texas where it's very very windy It's the second time

I've been in this RV park You start getting certain to know where things are and look that and oh, man

I'm gonna tell you something there. There is a unit park next to mine I Green with envy this thing.

It's a fifth wheel. I would never I was telling rich I would never want to try to get that thing through a

Gas station it is too long But it is beautiful Wow That's that it's gorgeous.

I yeah, okay anyway I've seen some million dollar buses bus homes things in these places.

It's Amazing. What are they gonna do? And when the regime tells you you can't drive cars anymore

I don't know. It's gonna be to be a lot of these parked and back yards and everything else

I I would imagine anyways, we're on the road on our way home from a very very busy almost fully month -long trip and once again,

I thank all of you for making that available those of you who support the The ministry and the travel fund and things like that and So I was thinking everything that I wanted to address on the program today

Fits into Radio Free Geneva, so why not get all the crazy people excited get the

Calvinist doing their headbanging thing and fire up Radio Free Geneva and Here we are and maybe somebody will walk by outside I don't know.

Oh, by the way Over in the corner here right here Okay, we've got

Ultraman. He's always with us and that's a just a beautiful cross. I bought at the KOA in Santa Fe on my first trip in this unit, but up here.

It's I think it's gonna stay I Think it's gonna hold there. I wasn't

Sure, whether it would but it's really tight in there. So I don't think it's gonna move if it survived To two days

Just wedged in there without being glued nailed anything else. I think it's gonna stay and That was given to me.

It's the John Calvin plaque It was good, well it it came with oh, you know what this would fit

Radio Free Geneva, um Hum a few bars Not that big of a thing to not be able to find things

I was given a few items And I think both of these came from the same folks in the line after the debate

So here's rich dude. Do you want you want? You can't read it

Armenian tears It says Armenian tears contents may be bitter. So I think the same folks that gave me this one

Also gave me This Which is a quote from John Calvin the pastor ought to have two voices one for gathering the sheep and another for warding off and Driving away wolves and thieves the scripture supplies him with the means of doing both.

I really that's a very very good quote and I Rarely see that last line the scripture provides him the means for doing both.

That's a That's good Good good theology and good preaching right there.

So we'll see if it we'll see if it holds up and So there there we go

We're you know getting little things and I have some plans for something up there and you know

We'll just see how how life goes. So anyhow, um on the program today

I spaced yesterday an Important element of what

I the comments that I wanted to provide In regards to the debate with Tim Stratton, and I guess there have been some developments rich has been going back and forth with with Tim on on Twitter and a few other folks have as well and somewhere along my my drive today rich sent me the text and I then looked it up of a

Tweet from eight hours ago from Tim Stratton That says and it was addressed to rich funny.

You mentioned professors. I've talked to several professors and debaters I've been told

I won the content every round by each of them even in the crosshacks One person described my crosshacks this way you clumsily stumbled and looked horrible on your way to scoring a touchdown end quote now

I Sort of started chuckling because who's

Who's going and talking to such people? I haven't had any conversations anybody.

I didn't it never crossed my mind to Take a poll of the professors at Grace Bible Theological Seminary.

I know what they would probably say but I Been willing to let the debate speak for the debate

So that makes me go hmm and I'd also like to know who who were these folks

They they didn't happen to teach at Trinity Bible College and Theological Seminary today

Who weren't maybe in attendance? So it this type of thing makes me chuckle, you know, it's damage control afterwards it's sort of like Whatever, okay, if you want to if want to do that kind of thing, but That that look you had on your face was you wanted to wanted to say something wasn't it?

Yes. You did want to say something You did want to say something. Ah, well

Yeah, okay. I hear you But I had not seen this and I don't know if you saw this

But Let me Come on Slide on oh, it won't slide over because this is maximized.

Okay. Yep. There we go. And now

We maximize that and I share

Desktop to Who and share there we go. You see that Yes, no, maybe

Well, that's it. Okay.

Well, I can read it for you. Um, this is the the live chat poll that Accompanied the debate so the the live streaming of the debate on YouTube and so they asked who won the debate and the

Screenshot that was provided to me Was white 73 % Stratton 14 %

I 1 % Does that mean my tie my bowtie? I think it's my bowtie. So I get that one point and neither 12 %

So I hadn't seen that Someone sent that to me. I don't I don't look for YouTube stuff and things like that.

But Yeah, yeah, so I found that um interesting and Nobody has control over who's watching the live stream and stuff like that.

I mean, it's not like so that was interesting but Point was

I realized that I had completely spaced yesterday an

Entire section what I wanted to mention Dr. Stratton keeps saying why I proved all my assertions and I'm like, no you didn't

Um Not only did you not present a positive case you cannot prove

Molin ism by Demonstrating the impossibility of the contrary

That's not what this kind of an assertion is about and that's all he did Well Calvinism can't be right because this isn't this therefore

Molin ism is right by default. I think most people caught that I'm not sure why he doesn't

Unless he's just so committed to the system that That he doesn't see

That that it doesn't follow from the argumentation But as I was sitting there taking my notes and you know,

I just realized I haven't looked at these since I Don't know if anybody noticed

I was using my remarkable to unit to and I have not turned it on or even looked at it since then and it

But Jeff Durbin has one of these two and I've said how long do you think the pen will last before it disappears?

And it so far. I haven't lost it. I will eventually but um, here's here's my notes from the debate see

And I here's here's what I wrote it's at one point Well, here's a couple things

He talked about inference He said the Trinity is not explicitly taught in Scripture. I would argue that You cannot even begin to understand the

New Testament without recognizing its Trinitarian document and that the foundational elements of the

Trinity are Clearly that's why I'm a biblical

Trinitarian not a philosophical Trinitarian are right there on on the surface So he says if the

Trinity is biblical than Mullen ISM is biblical I Just ask anyone Apply dr.

Stratton's own words there look at the What biblical argumentation you can even come up with that he presented and compare that to the

Trinity? Not there is no comparison. I'm close. You can't you can't even start

Only Defining determinism philosophically How for how

God made them act coercion I Repeatedly denied the use of a necessity of coercion

I Repeatedly pointed out that this is a straw man argument and Evidently if you don't put it in the form of a logical syllogism

Dr. Stratton doesn't think that you actually responded because he rarely takes in consideration Thanks, you said but here then this is exactly what

I wrote. I'll just be honest He is gone. He is going to do the you can't trust Scripture garbage

He is going to do the you can't trust Scripture Garbage and later on I said the diaphragm is ignoring categorical versus conditional mere robot teaching sigh

Passive cog deity of deception All the stuff that you all will recall we did address

Rather fully in the past. There was no refutation of that Response, so it was just simply repeated but I wanted to Illustrate the difference between The reformed mindset and the non reformed mindset and dr.

Stratton, it's not reformed Dr. Stratton is as reformed as Robert Shuler was

Okay, Robert Shuler's church is called a reformed her and So if that's all you want to say then fine, but I actually have a content and a meaning

To what it means to be reformed That I think most people can understand and follow and so the freedom of God To create as he sees fit not as what is determined by something outside of himself

To glorify himself as he sees fit same comments and to enter into relationship with anyone he chooses to enter into relationship with not simply those that Based on little knowledge.

He can put in the proper situation where they will freely choose to enter relationship with him Those are all the strictures of Molinism All of those were designed to defeat reformed theology

So if you believe these things you're not reformed just stop making the claim. It's just It's embarrassing

Really really is embarrassing But I wanted to address this because I want people to think first of all

Can you imagine? That Someone actually believes that making the argument that if you believe in Ed and again their definition their philosophical deficit if you believe

That Yahweh does as he pleases in the heavens and upon earth

If you believe what Nebuchadnezzar said in Daniel chapter 4 when he acts

Who can stay his hand or say why have you done this? Think about that cross -examination.

Isn't that what Tim said said he brought up child rape Why have you done this and yet his own system as we pointed as we demonstrate it?

I think in the cross -examination has no meaningful theodicy And what

I mean by that is if from their perspective God is

Delivered from the accusation of guilt by denying that he is the one who

Forms the very fabric of time and determines all events in time including all the means by which they happen

So there's primary causes and secondary causes and there's all sorts of issues that you have to go into Don't understand how

God does this From the Molinus perspective that makes

God guilty. He is the author of evil in their system

God could not avoid evil Right. I mean if they're the trans world there and Given the content of middle knowledge that does not come from God's will

God could not avoid evil he had to have a universe of people and All all

God could do is determine how much and so in the cross

X I was trying this through the filibustering to get to a meaningful discussion of Of how

Molinus in any mean in any way shape or form has a superior theodicy by asserting that God places people in a position

Where he knows they will break his law infallibly and yet he puts him in a position where they will do that and he knows they will do that and How you think that well

But they do it freely somehow has any moral meaning to it.

It doesn't I couldn't Get to it that clearly because you keep interrupting me and you know going off and I think that's when we got

Bucky and Hydra and dr. Strange involved somehow and You know,

I'm just thinking well, let's get Iron Man and the Hulk in here and maybe Thor or something just for the fun of it

I don't know. Anyway so, uh, we had all that stuff going on but Back to the point here the thing that I forgot to address.

He's doing this crazy if you have divine determinism

Then God is a deceptive God now.

There's no time in a debate like that And that was a fairly short debate. I mean 20 minutes 20 minutes eight eight

Decent amount of cross -examination five closers. That's fairly short. I've done four hour debates That was two hours and was two hours six minutes eight minutes something like that at least scheduled

You know, they always go a little longer You can't do it in debate but now that the debate is over and people are thinking about these things

I want to illustrate the difference between the reform and the Molinist at this point because I think it's very very useful a

A Christian goes to the scripture and goes Well first has

God ever deceived anyone and the answer is he most certainly has

Now you'll notice that in their formulation of this objection they

Talk about a Christian and it's because they know that in Scripture God engages in deception so as to bring about judgment upon evil men

So you'll remember the story it's recorded both first first Kings 22 and second

Chronicles 18 about the lying spirit That was put in the mouths of prophets to cause

Ahab to go up so he would be killed Now let's remember something here

Ahab's death is a part of God's decree on both sides on on on the

Molinist side and on the reform side and The date is a part of God's decree

There is a meticulous Providence Within Molinism just as there is within reformed theology.

That's That was purposeful on Molina's part was to use as much of the reformed system as possible while taking its heart out so as to relieve room for The Roman Catholic sacramental system so plainly

God does Deceive people he put a lying spirit in the mouths of the prophets

This Happened more than once. I mean that was a specific incident, but obviously What happens

Jeremiah the temple the prophets who are prophesying against Jeremiah?

And this all leads to the very destruction that Jeremiah is prophesying The temple and the

Babylonians and the captivity and everything else that goes along with it So plainly part of the means

That God can has and does use is to deceive people and The scriptures say in Romans chapter 1 that the result of the suppression the knowledge of God is what it's a darkening of the mind

It's foolishness becoming the very milieu in which a person thinks and And then think about what we have in those amazing words second second

Thessalonians chapter 2 Let's let's take a take a look at it here

In second Thessalonians chapter 2 and when that lawless one will be revealed when Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of his mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of his coming who's coming in accord of the working of Satan's all power and signs and false wonders and With all the deception of unrighteousness for those who perish

Please notice the term Apollo Mennois Apollo Apollo Mennois here in 1st

Corinthians chapter 2 1 It's the same term that is used there those who are perishing the the teaching of the the message of the cross is foolishness

Because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved

For this reason God sends upon them a diluting influence so that they will believe

What is false? It's literally toe to die. They will believe the lie in Order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in unrighteousness

There is plainly in God's judgment in this text

Utilization of falsehood against these individuals and God has perfect right to do this

That's why I think in the formulation presented they always say a Christian person because they know how often this happens in the context of Scripture and so What text did

I? respond with Well if you

Recall I replied with a quotation from 1st

Peter and so let's go ahead and and take a look at that particular Context Therefore beloved since you are looking for these things

Be diligent to be found in him in peace spotless and blameless and consider the patience of our

Lord as salvation just as our beloved brother Paul according the wisdom given him wrote to you as Also in all his letters speaking in them of these things in which are some things hard to understand

Which the untaught and unstable distort as they do the rest of scriptures to their own destruction Let me just point something out here.

This is it. This is important text We've talked about many times before but I want to point out what's what's what's found here

First of all one of the reasons that modern scholars reject the

Petrine authorship here is I just can't believe that Peter would refer to Paul's writings as the rest of the scripture toss loy possible floss

In their theory in their world that developed much much later on and couldn't reflect

Peter but notice who it is who Does the distorting of these things it is the

Untaught and the unstable the ungrounded so when you see you see you see here on my face on my face

Well, all right if that's uh, let's get this up here and Spend all this time doing this.

Let's Use the use all of the technology that we have here so I'm a face

You see right here the alpha primitive at the beginning and that leaves my face now, you've you've heard

The Greek term for math a taste a disciple a learner So this is the not taught and then the not

Stable. So what does that mean? Was what does it mean that the untaught and unstable are?

The ones who distort what Paul writes What that means is if you are taught and stable you don't have to distort what

Paul writes and that means both of these would refer them to a

Process of Sanctification you need to be taught you need to be grounded in God's truth that takes time

That takes time, right? so Um think with me for a moment

Let me see here I'll get better at this over time

So think with me for a moment You're a new Christian What do you need?

You need to be disciple that's That's what math a taste means to be taught

You need to be taught you need to be grounded and it's a process and you build from the foundation and you try to lay a foundation and Some people lay that foundation faster than others and they start building on it faster than others, but There's gonna be a period of time where you are immature and you are unstable now

Does that mean God has decreed your immaturity and your instability?

Or is it that God has decreed the process of sanctification which involves?

Learning and being grounded in the truth and that this actually is a lifelong process

Plainly It would be foolish It'd be almost childish to object to the way that God has chosen to To mature his people to say that from the start from the instant of your conversion

You should have all knowledge or God is deceiving you God is a deceptive God Because he could have as soon as you were converted given you all knowledge and grounded you and removed

Because he will when we enter into his presence remove all imperfections, could he do that?

Yep Does he do that? Nope. Why for his purposes because it's one of the purposes of the church

To engage in this activity of teaching and grounding people in Fact, it's one of the missiles.

I was trying to get into in the second half to cross X It's one of the things that as a pastor

Who has been in many a sick room in many an ER in many an ICU in many a room where death has just taken place

As a hospital chaplain who did that all the time I Am well aware of Of How God has used that in other people's lives

I am well aware of how and I don't remember if I had time to mention this but you have

Paul talking about us comforting others with the comfort with which with we ourselves have been comforted by God and one of the deepest

Christian realities of maturity is When you recognize

That you go through difficulties and trials in this life Which you might have been able to avoid if you had just had more insight and maturity, but you go through these things and Then you are able to then minister to those who likewise are going through Similar things it changes you it changes them.

This is life in the body But dr. Stratton's argument makes a mockery of life and body.

He doesn't mean to I think someday he's gonna look back on this and just go.

Oh, well Why didn't someone warn me? But it makes a mockery of life in the body

He actually has the temerity to talk about a deceptive God If God decrees what takes place then he's deceptive because he causes people to believe false things

Well, the Bible says he does do that for those he's judging But they take it into well, but you don't have perfect knowledge

So therefore you're saying God is deceiving you and notice To be taught and to become stable is a gift of God's grace

So that argument makes God's grace something that can be demanded in a certain form.

That wasn't even gonna stop there because the point I wanted to get to is in verse 18 and And That says

You therefore a beloved knowing this forehand beyond on your guard lest you haven't been carried away by the error of unprincipled men fall from the steadfastness, but Grow in the grace and knowledge of our

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This was the text that I quoted and So you are to grow

All right, that is a process it takes place over time and We are to grow in grace

Why would you have to grow in grace if you're sanctified immediately There's no reason for you to be experiencing grace.

You've already been perfected You may have been perfected by grace, but we need grace daily because of how often we fall

But we are to grow in the grace and the no sigh and yes, there is a variant there

But it's a very weak variant. It doesn't have anything to do with the Meaning of the text actually, it's a pissed eye and one one just not obvious sight error.

So it's it. It's not a possible original reading so we are to grow in the grace and knowledge of Of our

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, by the way, you've got Lord and Savior they're just just in passing.

I don't want to Take us completely away from it, but notice you've got an article here

Singular descriptive Chi singular descriptive One person what's that called?

Come on, Greek people. It's the Granville Sharp construction. Yes there are

Four clear Granville Sharp instructions in 2nd Peter That's why 2nd Peter 1 1 is a

Granville Sharp construction And that's why 2nd Peter 1 1 identifies Jesus as God take a look at it We've talked about it many many times before but just in passing so you can see it and catch that but back to our point growing in grace growing in knowledge is

What we are called to By Scripture That is a biblical command and if it is a biblical command then the whole idea that if God does what even

Nebuchadnezzar the pagan recognized God does and No one can stay his hand and say to him.

Why have you done this? In Molanism, why did he do this? Because it was the best he could do because of middle knowledge you see

But Nebuchadnezzar the pagan realized that that was silly And so if God is working out if he's doing what pleases him

Working out all things according the counsel of his will not the counsel of his will informed by middle knowledge

But the counsel of his will which comes from his eudaika These these you cannot put those two together.

They were designed to be are the one was designed to be antithetical to the other Molanism is the

It's supposed to destroy Reform theology it fails always will but there you go

If God is working on all things then you can't actually know the truthfulness of anything

When the reality is it is the working out of God's will That teaches you

About who Jesus is what his grace is The wonder of who he is that's the foundation of it there's nothing about God being deceptive here there is everything about God being gracious and being free in the mechanism by which he sanctifies his people and so That particular argument

I find deeply offensive. It is grossly unbiblical It is not derived from any kind of biblical thought whatsoever.

It is a philosophical trap That should not suggest itself to any biblically literate

Christian and Yes, dr. Stratton. I call upon you to recognize the foolishness of that argument and To lay it aside and to in fact publicly say

I am sorry. I Never should have developed an argument like that So I did want to address that issue.

And I think it's a I think it's an important one. I really do so, um

All right now Radio Free Geneva wouldn't be

Radio Free Geneva if we weren't dealing with some odd stuff as well. This is gonna be tricky

I don't know. This is gonna work. I'll be honest with you Um because Downloading multi -hour

Video wirelessly while traveling Not all that easy.

I even have a 5g connection here but It's still really challenging.

I just didn't have the time between when I you know, you can't just pull in run in here Level things out connect things up.

There's stuff you gotta do anyway, um So I I'm I have this queued up and I have a feeling it'll choke on me but I want you to try to see it because it's the it's the tone of voice it's the the laughter that I think is a

Really important part of what this is all about. And by the way, I saw today when

I was trying to download part 1 that part 2 Dealing with chapters 5 through 7.

I don't even have the Potter's Freedom with me. I mean, I've probably got on my hard drive somewhere I've got an 8 terabyte hard drives the hard drive.

So some somewhere in there. I've got the Potter's Freedom I'm assuming that by the time we get into 5 through 7, we're finally dealing with some serious exegetical stuff and that's what

I'm looking forward to is Seeing how these gentlemen actually handle the text of Scripture because as we saw last time they're handling of church history is

Is is really bad so, uh, but there's some important stuff today and I think

I have this queued up to Where it needs to be But this won't in other words this won't be as clean as the way

I normally do this where I have my little programs to do stuff and things like that because I just don't have the connectivity to be able to To do that.

So hopefully that is okay with everybody. So let's fire this up here and let's see

What happens Yeah, and the book is titled like it's subtitled a defense of the

Reformation and a rebuttal of Norman Geisler's chosen But free and white is already showing us. He doesn't know what the

Reformation is So this is there's a really bad start to the book But you know progressing two more pages right page 36

Quote one cannot claim to be faithful to the Reformation by crying sola fide

You know means faith alone when the foundation of that call is abandoned and quote page 36

Yes, so one of the first things I want to I want to shout out to my friend Jordan farrier We just dropped a an episode with them today

And he said I cannot find any reference to the five solas before the

Reformation so Okay. Now let me Let me let me stop there.

Um I'm not sure what will means by that It is again church history 101

To recognize that the five solas were formulated by looking back at the

Reformation And we're put into that form of the five solas only last century now individual phraseology was used but the but the

Gathering them together as a way of looking at the key Motivating factors of the

Reformation is a later point but hopefully what is not being said is

That there is no one who believes sola fide before the

Reformation and Certainly that there is no one who believed

Solus Futura before the Reformation. I mean you could Dilly -dally and go.

Well, what about Wickliffe? What about us? Call them, you know, he's Wickliffe is the morning star of the

Reformation and things like that. But no going back into the early church

I'm wondering What the assertion being made here is? It's not really played out

To really find out and understand but Given what is gonna be said by will later on in just a matter of minutes.

I do wonder what he what he believes about that I'm not I'm not a hundred percent

Certain. I just want to throw that out there first off.

So before someone's like us all the feed aids Calm down. Okay as far as for just But also faith alone fine, okay salvation through faith alone

I agree but what to assume that sola fide means again that there must be calls of determinism is

How I don't know how faith alone has anything to do with determinism.

Nope. Okay, so Here Here. Yes. Well, we can tell you you haven't read the book love because I was discussing exactly that and the point of dealing with Luther's understanding

Was about that This has to do with dealing with the Roman Catholic system the concept of sacraments the role of faith and penances and obedience and all of these things that again if you

Read original sources in the Reformation are part and parcel of what's being discussed and the key here is that Norman Geisler His views on Roman Catholicism Were well known to be

Problematic in these exact areas That were the most relevant to the subject of the

Reformation so when you know norm would emphasize the Council of Trent the

Council of Trent Taught that grace is absolutely necessary for salvation did

But the issue of the Reformation wasn't the necessity of grace. It was the sufficiency of grace

Whether grace can save or whether grace Requires human cooperation

Whether it's a small amount of cooperation or the large amount of cooperation of the sacramental system so yes, the issue of faith the nature of faith and Its relationship to God's Soteriological decree is

Very important. I you say you don't get it. Okay. Um, I tried to explain it.

I've just explained it again But that doesn't mean because you don't get it doesn't mean that it's not an important aspect of what the issues were at the time the

Reformation and Important as to how things are going now as well.

So we continue on Those are completely different categories. Am I wrong?

Yes so To think or claim that Luther and the other

Reformers are the only ones who can claim faith alone when other theologians were saying the very same thing

Within also the Catholic Church, by the way If you look at the some of the Reformation writings other people were affirming that and actually

Luther was okay, if I have a feeling he's probably referring to Some translations of Romans 3 that you use per sola fide a few things like that But if he means in the formulation that Luther is

Placing it. I'd like to know who he thinks was promoting these things The way that Luther did it was

Catholic. He didn't want to break away from the church that people need to understand That's who's not like he wanted to create his own denomination

Okay, his whole idea was to reform the Catholic Church. Hence the name reformed Well, that's not hence the name reformed

But that's quite true Luther initially Viewed himself as being faithful to the church that changes between 1518 and 1521 obviously

So that when he stands before Charles There has been quite a development in his thought

So before people get too crazy, there's that so One should accept the premise of sola fide while denying one can accept the premise of sola fide while denying

Luther's particular hermeneutic That's like saying that one cannot affirm like ransom theory of atonement while disagreeing with origin on universalism

There are two totally different categories Two totally different categories the evidently the idea here is well, we really can't use

Luther as the touchstone For interpreting what was causing the

Reformation maybe is that what's being said really hard to say Yeah, and I hope people realize that we are just picking out the absolute worst parts that like if we really wanted to respond to Everything that white said this is for you would take like years 157 hours later

That's how it could go we want if we said everything we wanted to say so like we are trying to show restraint here

So, you know what? I violate your cardinal rule. I make marks in books. You and I've had that discussion

That is the unforgivable sin. Well, I'm sorry. I have sinned But it's funny because I actually underline in books and what's hilarious is the notes you sent me so many of them were ones

I underlined Was like wow, this guy is saying exactly all the things that popped up to me, too

Find that ironically hilarious So, all right, we can move forward. I apologize.

Yep. Yep. Did you want to read this one? 37 on page 37 38 white says whether the work of salvation is perfectly accomplished by God for his own glory or is

Dependent upon man's cooperation and assistance is the watershed issue that separates biblical

Christianity from everyone else Yeah, so Strictly speaking.

I don't think that any Christian believes that man's cooperation or assistance is

Needed in the actual act of salvation obviously a large number of people

Affirm exactly that every person who says that God is trying to save everybody

But it's up to our free will is saying exactly that we all agree that salvation is of the

Lord God alone saves us Okay, somebody doesn't know the difference between providing a way of salvation and actually saving

This is the key issue. You can ignore it if you want, but it remains the key issue

However, it's clear from the context that white intends for the phrase work of salvation to be construed a lot more broadly and to also encompass what comes before salvation as well and The accomplishment of salvation all to the glory of his grace

Ephesians 1 4 through 6 now I do believe that man has to do something prior to being saved namely believe on the

Lord Jesus Christ as the scripture says Everywhere if white disagrees with that then

I submit that it's his position, which is radically unbiblical He doesn't disagree with this then he should stop pretending that he said something that's controversial because again

Literally everyone agrees that act of salvation itself is something that God alone does so the order of faith the the priority of the work of the

Spirit of God Does regeneration precede or follow is repentance a gift all these things are just simply thrown out the window as being irrelevant

I'm a little worried about what the the review of the biblical material is gonna look like here But as Amir said in our live chat right here, it says question begging question begging everywhere

Continually assuming my premise and not having to defend it. I'm just making the statements.

Yeah, I've never defended any of these things that in fact That's what the whole books about but hey, you know, you can't introduce a book evidently

If these guys can't recognize the flow of an argument and what an introduction is and and the fact there's an entire chapter

Substantiating biblically these things scary really scary, which is actually if you watch a lot of white debates, that's actually a huge tactic.

Oh, yeah So what the right here wouldn't wouldn't mind well if you actually decide to back that up brother

You you go ahead and try to do that that way that particular quote Bother me as well because for a man to choose

God on his own free will is not oh he needed God Needed his cooperation is it's again salvation is up for war.

Okay, so if he's trying to save everyone equally But he can't unless you

Actuate the grace do whatever is Not the one making the decision you and not

God. I Mean, this is these are basic issues that have been dealt with for a long long time

So it's another misrepresentation of people who would have what he would call a synergistic view because and white's view

Anything that is what comes from the free will of man to choose God. He believes the synergies Or I recognize what

Jesus said he who sins is a slave of sin You know you have that, you know as as Jesus said no one's able to come to me and so on and so forth

Yes, yes, we will you're right. I got getting ahead of myself So Anyway, so his point here is actually rather contract as well

So making it that God must determinately choose to save for his own glory is to beg the question

And it assumes that God giving man agency to choose and choose himself is somehow robbing

God of his own glory Which I will demonstrate when I get into the biblical argumentation, which is what the rest of books in reality

It could be argued that a free agent lovingly responding to God and his own creation and his own revelation to man

Of his own volition also brings glory to God Unless that man is a rebel sinner and is dead in the sin

So again, it doesn't it's a false equivocation of some sort and it's quite begging question bank None of those things are appropriate.

The gentleman does not know how to analyze arguments. So it bothers me I Believe when

I was reading this book, I was just it was a trudge Yeah, because within the first 40 pages I was annoyed beyond all measure.

Yeah But yeah Yeah, the doctrines of grace

Catch that the doctrines of grace. I hate that name for that. Hmm Okay, doctrines of grace direct us away from ourselves and solely to God's grace in mercy

They destroy pride instill humility and exalt God and that's why so many invest so much time in the vain

Attempt to undermine their truth and quote So how many hours are they gonna spend doing exactly what

I said, they're gonna be doing It's just fulfilling exactly what I said grace our total depravity unconditional action limited atonement irresistible grace and perseverance of the

Saints That's the summary of five points. There's much more to it It's the famed tulip.

Yeah, and there's not a whole lot of grace in there But there is not a whole lot of grace in there

Wow If I made that kind of statement, they would expect all these arguments to to flow forth, right?

But they get to just simply make that kind of shot. Okay. All right Yeah, that's why

I've never understood the name doctrines of grace But anyway, so the irony of this whole passage should not be lost on the reader

I don't know when you listen to James White does he seem to you to be a humble man because I can't say that I find him to be that way and Shut up,

David. You work at Dillard's. What do you know? I'm just saying it doesn't inspire confidence that these so -called doctrines of grace and still

Nearly as much humility as white seems to think they did and just leaving that issue aside

How is white concluded that all of the alternatives to Calvinism failed it instilled humility

Presumably because he's still operating on the assumption that non Calvinist believe that they saved themselves in some sense

And of course again These men have actually read the book those of you who have read the book are seeing they're going wait

But yeah, I did address all that and why aren't you seeing it? Well, some people just can't see it because They're very deeply and you know committed to a particular system

But just just listen to the listen to the voices listen what watch the faces

So again notice No Everyone doesn't agree

Notice the young man does not even seem to understand. There is a vast difference Between God actually accomplishing salvation and God making salvation something that we

Can obtain by doing X Y or Z? That's the whole point of the sacramental system of Rome That's the whole point of the this entire discussion of provisionism and everything else when you say salvation is of the

Lord there is a vast difference between you saying well you need the Lord to get saved and Saying the

Lord saves those are two different things and He evidently has never been challenged to recognize that they are two separate things so this just comes off as like a superficial attempt at piety and This last sentence attributing bad motives critics of Calvinism.

I mean, that's just poisoning the well and it's a textbook example of an ad hominem Perhaps the non

Calvinist just honest. Okay. He's just reading his stuff here If you're watching you can see his eyes moving back forth cost screen.

So he's not even seemingly able to Order these thoughts in of himself.

But the point is what is he saying? That's not ad hominem argumentation

Church history What is Molin ism? Molin ism is the very fulfillment of what

I was saying What was the counter -reformation What what have I been doing in doing debates with Roman Catholics before this kid was born?

He ignores all that stuff. Oh, this is ad hominem argumentation. No, it's not

There's a referent that you just simply aren't willing to even see we don't believe that scripture teaches Calvinism And also this bothers me all the time

I hear all the time you have a man -centered doctrine Because right here is like trying to push people away from man and unto

God if you're reading scripture And you don't realize that scripture is a story between man and God if you focus only on man

You've got a problem to focus only on the God part of that equation. You got a problem Mankind is valuable created image of God.

He views them as a He looked at his creation said it is very good It is there his children.

He loves them, which is why he sent his son to die for them catch that Most people wouldn't catch that but I hope you caught it.

He says they're his children. No, well, they're not they're his creatures They're not as children

Until they're redeemed This everybody's God's children is not what the

Bible teaches by any stretch the imagination so there is this really it bothers me when people try to Remove man from the equation entirely if I am not if we are if we're to remove man entirely from this equation

Then we're essentially saying that mankind has zero value unless God chose them Not saying that at all

Not saying that out. Where does that come from? The emphasis when I talk about man -centered versus God -centered

I'm talking about where do we start? What is the ultimate purpose is the ultimate purpose the glorification of God or is the ultimate purpose the salvation of man?

Or is man the means by which God is going to bring about at least part of his self -glorification?

What is foundational? What is fundamental? That's the issue Which is problematic to say the least in my view

By the way, we're almost done. We're just gonna do like one more minute and then wrap stuff up Like I said, this is strictly from my perspective

But I honestly believe that that's one of the biggest problems with Calvinism is actually two values man And and not in a way that's like oh well you want to make man

God No I want to value man the way scripture values man the way God values man And I think if we value man, we show that we also value

God because he values me so Anyway, I digress soapbox.

I'm getting off of it Um, that's actually one of many reasons why I don't affirm that God poured his wrath out on his son

But that's neither here nor there. We won't get into atonement theories. I'm sorry, David. I pulled you into that Um Anyway, so I'd probably call the heretic by white just for saying that but whatever it's like dare you deny the penal substitution

The 400 year old doctrine created by the loose by Luther only what's anyway, okay, that's what

I wanted to hear First of all,

Will Hess is a prophet because when I first heard him deny penal substitutionary atonement

I stopped listening and I did a voice text and To mark the the time frame and I Did include in My voice text the term heretic.

So will your prophet also makes you a heretic? Um, I Hope you just heard and I and I unfortunately

I stopped the share too quickly Let me let me let me show you something here Here they just what they just said.

It's only 400 years old It only goes back to the Reformation and I and I want you to here's here's the the freeze

Look at look at smiles These men are denying the central biblical teaching about the atonement of Christ and that's their attitude

That's their attitude Um You just need to understand this you need to understand where they're coming from and The attitude they're bringing to the to the text of Scripture It will

I'm sure going to have gonna explain a lot when we get into the biblical text and especially dealing with particular redemption

I don't even know what they're gonna be able to do there But Yes, I affirm that the

That he who knew no sin Was made sin on our behalf that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Yes. I I affirmed that I know what NT Wright says about that and debated

NT Wright about that on the unbelievable radio broadcast and I think his answers don't hold water.

That's not just about the Apostles and the Lamb by his blood redeemed people men from every tribe tongue people a nation and Yes, the wrath of God due to his broken law was born by the

Sun and I have testified to that in mosques around the globe and I will continue to testify to that as long as give

God gives me life and breath And I'll continue to defend that against men like this who creep into the church to spread falsehoods

Because that's what this ministry has always done and we will continue to do so now by the way before Before we run off Right as the program is starting.

This isn't necessarily radio free Geneva aspect, but it's worthwhile to mention right as it was starting Sometime last year

Right toward when we first got the new studio working we did a

Lengthy dividing line on the 1946 movie remember and I kept telling people

You need to be prepared to deal with this stuff you need to be ready and Right as we went on the air a

Tweet came up because I follow the movie feed It's called 1946 the mistranslation that shifted a culture 1946 the movie comm is in technical post -production and we need your help

Like share on your socials and consider donating via merchandise purchases and through our fiscal sponsor, etc, etc

So we can bring this incredibly important film to the world So they're in post -production.

I With this if we are wise We will use this to promote the kingdom

But the best way to do it is not me doing something big or Michael Brown doing something big or something like that It's teaching every believer

Teenagers To understand what the scripture teaches about the subject of homosexuality and how to properly translate arsonic weight ace the

Background in the Greek septuagint. Yes, you can understand all those things and explain them to somebody else

That is how we'll have the greatest impact That's the way to do it so let's um, let's keep focused on that we'll keep an eye on what's going on there and Go on from there.

All right There we go, I Don't think we're gonna do another program before I get home.

Who knows. We'll see we've It's pretty neat to be able to do it. I've got to admit and I don't really think that the content suffers

At all with having having the the little mini flipboard over here and and stuff like that I We're doing all right, that's it's good.

It's good stuff. I I will mention rise we're closing down I Ran into an accident right as I got into the city here.

And as we went by it on an access road It was a full

Mobile home. So in other words with an engine It wasn't one of the big bus ones, but it was a fairly decent sized one there wasn't much left of it and up ahead was a tractor trailer and it's the back end of it was damaged and I'm pretty sure what happened is a construction zone

They weren't watching Everybody came to a quick halt all of a sudden the guy looks up.

I don't know if he survived I'll be honest with you, but These are just these are made to be as light as possible and a tractor trailer is not and When the two of them get together we lose big time big big big time

So I pray that that wasn't a fatality But why can I can guarantee you someone was was badly injured in that one?

So pray for traveling mercies and that I will keep my eyes on the road and that the

Lord will be merciful to us So thanks for watching the radio free Geneva today. We'll see you next time.