March 30, 2004

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. And good morning and welcome to The Dividing Line.

My name is James White. We are live today on The Dividing Line. Some of you are catching up.

We have about 44 people on the channel at the moment. I mean, some of you are figuring out when it is that we are doing this, which means we'll have to change the schedule again.

No, we're not going to do that. Another person who found out that we are doing Dividing Lines now on the old schedule, 11 a .m.

on Tuesday, 4 p .m. on Thursday, is a fellow who lives in the sunny state of Florida where nothing ever dries out because it's too humid to dry out in Florida.

Actually, there's been some droughts down there, so I guess that's not completely true. And Florida is a large meteorological zone,

I suppose. But anyway, we have... You know what

I was going to do? And then I decided that Mike's psyche was just a little bit too fragile for this.

I was going to go, ladies and gentlemen, we have on the phone lines today, the doctor of democracy.

What's that? He dropped off. Oh, man. Okay. Well, let's go with Mike, then. I decided not to do that because that would be really very unkind of me.

I can't hear him laughing, so is Mike on with me? Hi, Mike.

Oh, good grief. Now I'm hearing myself. This is

Chad. We've got Chad in Florida. Sorry about that.

How are you, James? I'm here. I got more sleep last night than I did the night before.

Let's put it that way. I have a question, a theological question.

You've got a theological question? You know, when people come to the channel and say that, I duck. Well, the question was, if in the

Ten Commandments, certainly, we're going to be talking about we're going to be talking about the

Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the

Ten to be talking about the

Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten to be talking about the

Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the

Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the

Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the

Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the

Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going to be talking about the Ten Commandments, and we're going All they would do is just use the extra income if the rates drop to fund their things and so forth.

Certainly, we have to take care of bringing all these great folks like Steve Camp and James White and incredible scholars like David King and others on board,

Bill Johnson as well. But we also want to make sure that we always can make it the easiest for folks to join us that really want to be a part of what we're doing in Apologetics.

To be a part of having great fellowship and praise and so forth, it's just an incredible opportunity and the price that we try to offer is always the lowest.

I think if you take a look at any other large group that's going out, their prices are usually much, much, much higher than ours, almost double if you will.

We came on today to announce that RCI did make a rate adjustment and we followed accordingly.

If you take a look on the website and click on to the Apologetics cruise banner, you'll

Someone found out how to put little yellow rate decrease things right there on the page.

That was really cool. You know, I'm starting to be able to know my way around front pages.

You shouldn't have said that. Now, every geek in channels will be going, front page, oh, that's terrible because I use front page too and they just, they just, as soon as you say that, they go, well, you're not a real web person.

You should use notepad and do it in HTML like all the rest of us and stuff like that. So in all of you that are trying to PM me right now, let me get to you after I'm done here.

But anyway, if you take a look down to the bottom of the page, you'll see that we had a price drop that went from $1 ,060 for a balcony stateroom to $860.

Okay, so we took that down $200 per person and as well with the junior suites, which are just beautiful suites, if you take a look at the one on your website there, it's kind of like the one that Dr.

Rowe got blessed with last year and these are just beautiful suites. Large, you can fit eight people into them if you want to have some folks over to talk or to pray or whatever else, just fantastic.

And that along with our already low price, which is, if you take a look at what you can get on with us for, $490 and that's for seven days, your meals are included, your non -alcoholic drinks are included, etc.

As well as your conference time, the music with Steve Camp, which Steve will be doing things every single day with us, your theology talks at night, everything included for $490.

Which I've pointed this out to folks before, you could not go to any of the amusement parks in Southern California, because we're going out of Long Beach and so you're in Southern California, you couldn't go to any of those amusement parks for that kind of price and actually eat and then stay at a hotel and you'd have to walk around all over the place instead of floating along in the

Pacific Ocean. So, it's just a ridiculously small amount of money for the week that you get and then you throw in, you know, there's something going on.

There's a conference, there's teaching, there's the fellowship and stuff. And that's what I like about the fact that we adjust the rates and have more folks going because I, you know, we got to meet all sorts of really neat people when we go on the cruises and you're not just sitting around with just the super high -brow folks that, you know, the only group that can get to go on each one of these cruises is because, you know, they're already retired multi -millionaires or something like that.

You get to talk to the folks who, well, who are out there doing the work themselves. So, it's a really neat opportunity.

Amen. And not only that, but we also have offers for anybody that joins us on the cruise. You're going to have a conference and a debate prior to the cruise.

The cruise itself, we're going to be taking a look at the doctrine of justification. But prior to the cruise, for two days, we are going to be having a debate, number one, on Friday night between Dr.

James White, you know him? Yeah, I've heard he's bald and unlikable.

Yeah, he's a little excitable. And Douglas Wilson. And one of the debates that I think that we've been trying to pursue for a little bit of a time, and certainly this is something that you want to make sure that you're at, especially if you're concerned about apologetics, if you're concerned about the truth of justification, the basic argument that we're going to be going around is, are

Roman Catholics part of the covenant people? That is something that is, if you think about it, think back ten years, how absolutely inflamed

Reformed folks got over ECT. How many folks separated from seminaries, etc.

And now, this sort of idea that Roman Catholics are brothers and sisters in Christ is being accepted now.

Oh yeah. And almost in, as Hank would put it, in the pale of orthodoxy.

So this is something that we're going to take on Friday night, and then on Saturday, we'll be having

Phil Johnson from Grace to You in the Spurgeon Archive. He'll be coming and talking to us about N .P.

Wright's position on justification. David King will be speaking, Steve Camp, and then

James will be speaking again. And all this included, if you go on the cruise with us, all of this will be included for free.

You cannot beat that with a stick. It's impossible. This is just an offer, really, like we have not put together before.

And this is an opportunity for you to come, to be with us, to be at the debate, to go to the conference, to be with us on the ship as we even go more intensively into the doctrine of justification.

It'd be part of our theology talks at night, which were just so popular, I think, with so many of our folks.

I'd say the average age of our people, what would you say it was last time, Jim? The average age of folks that we had.

You know, as soon as I say that, there's going to be certain people who are offended, so I'm going to avoid that one.

I'd say the average age would be somewhere between 30 and 32, because we had folks in their 20s.

Oh yeah, we did. People that were in seminary at the time. And we also had people that were in their 50s.

Who will remain nameless. What was that? Who will remain nameless. Yes. I wasn't one of them, by the way.

I just wanted to mention that. Not yet. But we just had a fantastic time. We look forward to doing it again.

You'll be with us on Royal Caribbean's Vision of the Seas, which is a beautiful, huge boat. Just absolutely sparkling.

With all sorts of different dining options, et cetera, that sort of thing. Going to the Mexican Riviera, Puerto Vallarta, Mazatlan, Cabo San Lucas.

Folks, you don't want to miss this. This is, once again, an opportunity to come on, rub elbows with James a little bit, especially if you're in the weight room with him.

Or at the hamburger grill. Hey, hey, hey, hey! Yes, I'm sorry. Not the sushi bar.

But certainly this is an opportunity for you to come, to be with us. Take this week as vacation.

It's affordable. Excuse me. Excuse me. What was that? Excuse me. What was that term? What? I'm sorry.

What? What does that mean? Vacation. Oh, vacation. Vacation. I don't know how to define that.

Hey, you know, I just popped onto Catholic Answers' website. While I was speaking? Yes, I did.

Oh, thanks for paying attention. Well, you know, I just figure I can trust you. It's called multitasking here.

And I'm looking at what they've got going here. And their lowest, they're on Haul of America this run.

This is October 2nd through the 6th. And the lowest price I see on a double is $1 ,900.

Then $2 ,300, $3 ,000, $3 ,100, and $4 ,000.

Yeah. What ship are they on, by the way? They are on the

Mazda. What was their lowest rate? Now I've got to go back to where I was.

The lowest rate that I see here is $1 ,900. So, in other words, they put about a $1 ,000 pad on each one of their cabins.

Yeah. By the way, I don't want anybody writing, we're not saying that's wrong. If that's what you want to do, fine.

I'm just simply saying we don't do that because we want to have a different group of people with us, basically.

I mean, we certainly want to have great speakers. We want to have incredible musicians and so forth with us.

And certainly there are some adjustments that you have to make to make sure that that happens. But at the same time, we don't want to ever try to profit off of this necessarily.

And this is something to where we can get together. We are together with people that are like -minded in ministry.

It's just a wonderful time of fellowship. It really is. And whether we're in the

Mexican Riviera, the Caribbean, or Alaska, wherever we are, it's just been a great time to get to know folks that are like -minded.

Well, I'm looking forward to it, and I want to let folks know that that had taken place because not everybody is going to be checking the webpage all the time.

But this is a major thing that we're doing, especially with the conference and stuff, and we really hope that folks will be joining us.

I was going to tie this in, unfortunately. Let me see if I can go back on this.

No, I can't. I had a website up, I was going to mention to you, Mike, at Catholic Answers.

And they've got it set. I don't know how they do this, but they've got it set to where it's not really scrolls, but it keeps changing the ads on the front.

And right before it changed, while we were still talking, under new titles, there was a tape set from Scott Hahn, Faith Alone, Is It Justifiable?

And it's a new tape set attacking Sola Fide, which, of course, is directly relevant to what we're talking about.

It's sad that here you've got the Scott Hahn -type folks attacking the doctor justification.

We expect that. That's been going on for a long, long time. But so much of the attack upon justification by faith today is coming from what is, quote -unquote, inside the church, rather than inside what used to be, what we thought was, our own lines, shall we say.

And now it's sort of like, remember at the beginning of Gladiator, when the

Germans run out to attack the Romans, which was really stupid anyways, but then all of a sudden the Roman cavalry comes from behind them.

That's sort of the situation. We thought we knew which direction we were fighting, but now it's all around us. So, unfortunately, that tape set disappeared.

And it was fascinating. It looked like it was a two -tape set for $24. Woo -hoo! There's a little bit of padding, shall we say.

Anyhow, well, sir, thank you very much. You can find the cruise page right off of the main page at aomin .org.

So anytime you go read the blog, just right over to the top on the right, you'll be able to see the link there.

And I think most people will be able to forgive you for using front page. They forgive me for using front page, so I don't think they should hold that against us at all.

Okay, brother. All right, man, thanks a lot. Take care. All right, God bless. Bye -bye. 877 -753 -3341.

Yes, one other thing before we start taking our phone calls. I do have a clip we can play if we run out of phone calls.

I don't know if we're going to or not, but we have finally gotten around. Yes, indeed, we have so many things we're doing to updating the

MP3 list. So the dividing lines are there now and what they were about and things like that. So if you've been wondering, that's what you can do.

You can get on the MP3 list now, and there will be material there that you can look at as far as the new dividing lines.

And don't forget, this coming weekend, for those of you who are up in the

Utah area, two debates Friday night. These are all on our calendar page. Yes, the calendar page is actually currently updated and current.

I know that's a shock, but on the calendar page we have a debate Friday night on the subject of Do Christians Build Temples?

University of Utah against a Mormon apologist. And Saturday night, someone is actually going to be defending the thesis that the

Bible presents and supports homosexual marriage. And obviously,

I'm going to be refuting that particular perspective. Also at the University of Utah, same location.

And so if you can't make it, please pray for us as we do these debates and then come back on Sunday afternoon.

No, we will not be going to the General Conference of the Mormon Church. I've been doing that for a number of times now, mainly because there are a bunch of people standing outside who are irrational and beyond any hope of dialogue or conversation with them.

They are called King James Only Fundamentalist Baptist street preachers. And actually,

I don't think that we should actually even connect them with King James Only Fundamentalist, period, because I know

King James Only Fundamentalist, period, that you can talk to. And so that's a whole other issue. Anyways, that's coming up this weekend.

Yeah, they just aren't nice people. That's just all there is to it. Okay, let's go ahead and – oh, man, do we have to do this?

Because, you know, I was saying to Pete earlier that I was scanning the channel and there were no

Canuckians in channel. But now we're going to go to Vancouver, Canada on our first shot and talk to Randy.

Wow, okay, all right. Hi, Randy. Is it still legal for you to call a program like this from Canada?

I'm not sure, actually. Thanks for taking my call, Dr. White. Are there any bugs on the line?

Maybe someone from the government is listening. We need to be very kind today, okay? Yes, indeed. We'll have to be careful of what we talk about here.

We don't want you charged $5 ,000 or $6 ,000 for daring to quote from the Bible, so that would be a bad thing. But then again, it's

Canadian dollars, so it's not as bad as American dollars. That's true. Anyhow, sorry,

Randy. We had this thing going on in channel with Canadians, and you just sort of stumbled into it.

But it's okay. We love you. The church extends beyond our northern border. It really does. Well, that's a relief.

Thanks for taking my call. Yes, sir. I read Chosen But Free quite a while back, and then someone told me about the

Potter's Freedom. So I actually read your book, and I appreciate it. I think it was an excellent response to Chosen But Free.

And in fact, you've won me over. I think that for the vast majority of what you've written there,

I can't argue with it. It's just so well done. And on top of that, I'd like to say

I appreciate your ministry. I think it's a valuable one for sure. A question I have for you, and one regarding Calvinism, a question that never has really been answered to my satisfaction yet at this point, and I don't think it's been probably about a year now since I've read your book, and I can't remember your exact response to it, but I remember,

I think, still being a little unsatisfied with the answer to this question, and that was, what would you do?

What do you do then in the end with the, or how would you get around the idea that God is not the author of sin?

And, you know, I ask that in the sense that if God, if events in the world unfold exactly the way they do because God has created the world in such a way that that's the way it's going to happen, where people make the choices they do, if that is all so predetermined, then how do you get around that?

I don't understand it. Did you get a chance to listen to the Bible Answer Man program?

I've listened to it a number of times, but not on this particular. Well, what I mean is in December 16th, 17th, and 18th, and those

CDs are still available from CRI, I was on with George Bryson and Hank Hanegraaff, and we were discussing this very issue.

It kept coming up over and over again, and then in the weeks after that, on the dividing line, that was an almost constant topic of conversation was, what do you do with the issue of George Bryson's constantly saying, this makes

God the author of evil, and I just can't accept that. And we talked about compatibilism. We went through Acts 4 and Isaiah 10 and Genesis 50.

A number of times, a number of callers brought it up over the weeks afterwards. So while I'll be brief here, you might want to look at the archives of the dividing line, which are available at straightgate .com,

and catch the dividing line starting somewhere around the 17th or 18th of December, and you'll see that there's a fair amount of discussion of it, and some of the discussion is fairly lengthy.

There are a couple of times that I played, for example, some calls that came into the program after I was on and responded to things that were said there.

There was one particular program where I went over the use of the illustration by Hank Hanegraaff regarding Sonny and Cher, and his assertion that, well, even though we know

Sonny and Cher divorced, actually it was about 30 years ago, that doesn't mean we caused the divorce, and hence that means, from his perspective,

God's knowledge is gained the same way we gain knowledge, and yada, yada, yada. So we've gone over it a number of times.

I would just basically say that the fundamental answer is to be found in recognizing the difference between being an author who intends and desires the result of evil, and being an author who intends and desires the ultimate result of pure holiness and good.

And what I mean by that is, when we look at what the scriptures teach concerning this particular issue, there is no question that God makes uncomfortable statements such as Isaiah 45, 7, where he says,

I create shalom, and I create raw. Shalom is peace, well -being. Raw is evil and calamity.

The scriptures say, if evil comes upon a city, has not the Lord done it?

You have the very clear statements of God in Genesis 50, that it was his hand that brought about the selling of Joseph into slavery, which included all sorts of sinful acts, as far as the hatred of his brothers, and the selling of their brother into slavery, and the deception of their father, and constant lying over long periods of time, and all sorts of things like that.

You have it in Isaiah 10, where God brings Assyria against Israel, and there's pillaging, and murder, and all sorts of terrible things there, and yet God says,

I've brought them against you as punishment, and then I'm going to punish them for having the wrong attitude in doing what they're doing, and being prideful, and so on and so forth.

And then, of course, you have the clear statement of the early church in Acts 4, that it was

God's hand and God's will that purposed the very crucifixion of Christ, which was, I think, quite arguably the most evil action that man has ever undertaken to crucify the sinless

Son of God. So you have all of those statements, and then in all of them, you have the assertion of the absolute purity of God, the absolute holiness of God, and so you have to take a clue from each one of those, and realize that the issue is the intention of the heart.

When God has Joseph sold into slavery, it is not his intention to rejoice in evil, and to embrace evil, and he's not doing it for evil desires.

In fact, the specific statement of Scripture is, he did this to save many people alive. This was the methodology that God chose to use to put

Joseph into the position he was, to save his family, and to put Israel in the position of growing there in Egypt, and then bring about the result of the

Exodus, the ravaging of the idolatrous nation, the destruction of the idolatrous gods of Egypt, the demonstration of his name, the demonstration of his power and authority, all those things were wrapped up in this one particular event.

And the same thing in Isaiah 10, the fact that the Assyrians are punished because of the intention of their heart, and yet God is glorified in the very same action because of the intention of his heart.

And then, of course, Acts chapter 4. Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Jews, the Romans, they're all obviously culpable and blameworthy for what they do, because they're acting on the intentions of their heart, which is evil.

They desire to... the Jews hate Christ. They want to see him destroyed because he's exposed their sinfulness.

The Romans are just heartless. Pilate's a wimp. Herod's a nutcase. And each one of them is held accountable because they act upon the intentions of their heart.

But the intention of God's heart in each one of those actions is not only his ultimate glorification, but the glory of his people, the betterment of his people, the sanctification of his people, the establishment of the church and the gospel and so on and so forth.

And so when we look at actions, we have to judge those actions based upon the intention of the ones acting and the results of the one acting.

And so the scriptures give us then this indication. You clearly see that God has the right to do with those who are under his wrath what he chooses to do, and that he is free to bring about his own glory in the punishment of those people or the use of those people, as he does with Pharaoh.

He raises Pharaoh up, puts Pharaoh in the position that he puts Pharaoh in specifically for the purpose of the proclamation of his name, the demonstration of his power.

He says this plainly. He says this clearly. What are we going to do with that? Any theistic system has to deal with these issues.

The reformed theistic system simply does so up front rather than moving the issue back three or four steps and then sort of like people want to do, covering over the tracks in the sand as if there hasn't been a movement.

Any person who believes that God has knowledge of the future has to deal with this issue. Whether they want to deal with it or not, whether they choose to deal with it, whether they come up with a meaningful answer or not,

I don't know. The only people who can duck this are open theists, process theologians, other people who basically throw their hands up in the air and say, hey,

God started all this, but you can't blame him for it because he had no idea this was coming. Other than that, you have to deal with this.

The reformed person deals with it right up front and says, purpose, final result, glorification of God.

Let's start there. Let's start with what the scriptures state in each one of these examples and then move forward from there.

Rather than starting with the assumption, free will of man, autonomy, and the inevitable result being a diminishment of either

God's knowledge or God's power or complete denial of his decree, whatever it might be.

And so the answer then is to be found in what you mean by author. And by author you mean someone who brings something about so that the intention of their heart is, in this case, to fulfill evil longings and desires, then no.

If what you mean by that is that God has used secondary sources and means, ourselves, to bring about his ultimate good, but that it did include sin and evil and the eventual destruction thereof in the demonstration of God's power and glory, then yes.

So you have to define what the phraseology and terminology means and then go to the scriptures with what the question really is all about.

Well, that is a very thorough response. And I appreciate it. Actually, that was well done. I'm glad I'll be able to pick this up actually on the recording on the

Internet so that I can use that. Yeah, and I'd just like to say in passing, I'd like to thank again

Stephen Luker and, of course, Rich Pierce. Those are the two guys that make, and Pete. Pete out there in Canada.

Did you know that you're listening to this because of a Canadian? No, I had no idea. He's out in Nova Scotia, and he drives a yellow car, and I feel sorry for him.

We pray for his deliverance from the yellow car. But he is a Canadian, and the reason you're able to hear this live on the

Internet right now is because of him, and we couldn't do it without him and Stephen Luker and Rich Pierce.

So I hope you'll take the opportunity. We went over this a number of times after the program.

And, in fact, if I were you, in fact, AOMN, are we going to finally get around to doing what we said we were going to do and make those

CRI programs available where we can get ahold of CRI, find out what our price is going to be, and just throw them into the mix there?

Because we've talked about doing that. We might as well. People want to know about that, right? Yeah, I still have yet to have a chance to get to that.

I've been DVDing my fingers off. Yes, I know, but we're going to do that.

And put it as part of a package sort of thing, perhaps, and also by itself.

Yeah, okay. All right, so we're going to be doing that. So we'll have that stuff available, and I hope you'll take time to look at that. And that's the whole reason we're here is to try to provide this type of stuff to folks and say, hey,

I can't shove this down somebody's throat. Here's the information. Think about it. Take it to the

Word of God. Test it. That's what we're all about. And it's neat that we even make it across the border.

For now, anyways, eventually, I imagine Canadian servers are going to have to put filters on us because of how politically incorrect we are.

And I only say that, sadly, only semi -joking. I mean, look at one of the topics of the debates that I'm going to be doing this weekend.

I'm going to be debating against a person who is promoting homosexual marriage. And sadly, you probably have to agree with me that you could foresee that not being something that is wanted across certain borders.

Yes, indeed. It's a sad thing. So we will continue not only to pray for our country, but need to pray for yours, too.

Yeah, thank you, Dr. White. All right, sir. There are a number of us here that really appreciate your ministry.

I just want to say that again. And it is a valuable ministry, and it has done a lot of good here among us.

So thank you very much, and we'll be listening to your show. Thanks a lot, Randy. God bless you. Bye -bye. Bye -bye. Beautiful city,

Vancouver. Except that one section where all the green high -rises, they're sort of like green.

Was that purposeful? Or is that just, oh, the paint changed color in the sea air.

Oh, no. You go across a bridge. When you're getting toward where the ships are. I've gone out of Vancouver twice, and it was just really odd there.

Nice airport, though. Except they had no meaningful food. I mean, there was not like a McDonald's around.

I mean, you had to, it was really odd. But anyway, the

MP3s should be ready within an hour or so. MP3s of what? You know, this just pops up on my screen.

I'm supposed to just. He was asking about recordings, and I said the MP3s of this show should be ready. Oh, this show.

Oh, okay. After the webcast. See, I just assumed he was talking about the Straitgate stuff back with the dividing line back in December.

So I'm just not all here. Hey, aren't we supposed to be taking a break right now? Yeah. Okay, so I'll just do some of the music now.

There it is. All right. 877 -753 -3341. We'll be right back.

Under the guise of tolerance, modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality.

Even more disturbing, some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior.

In their book, The Same -Sex Controversy, James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the

Bible's teaching on the subject, explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality, including

Genesis, Leviticus, and Romans. Expanding on these scriptures, they refute the revisionist arguments, including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law.

In a straightforward and loving manner, they appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for His people.

The Same -Sex Controversy, defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at almin .org.

Answering those who claim that only the King James Version is the Word of God, James White, in his book,

The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true

Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style, author James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book, The King James Only Controversy, by going to our website at www .almin

.org. What is Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book, Chosen But Free?

A New Cult? Secularism? False Prophecy Scenarios? No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant.

In his book, The Pottish Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler, But the Pottish Freedom is much more than just a reply.

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed, it is a defense of the very

Gospel itself. In a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme

Calvinism, defines what the Reformed faith actually is, and concludes that the Gospel preached by the

Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture. The Pottish Freedom, A Defense of the

Reformation and a Rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free. You'll find it in the Reformed Theology section of our bookstore at www .aomin

.org. Here I stand on the one street

You know, those words were prompted by the great stand of Martin Luther when called to recant of his words and his writings.

And he said, I cannot go against conscience. And right now there is someone in channel demanding that I recant of having noticed that someone north of the border drives a little yellow car.

And it is not good to go against one's conscience.

And I just think that old Pete out there needs to go back and listen to what

I said before demanding a recantation. So here I stand and that's just the way it is.

877 -753 -3341. Hey Pete, you can call in if you'd like to defend the yellow car.

All of a sudden our feed switches over to 1980s music or something like that. That's probably what's going to happen. I did have something

I can play while you are... Oh, okay, I look over at the window that tells me what

I'm supposed to do. Mike forgot to mention the special rates, the Sheraton. Encourage folks to stay for two nights.

Okay, there, I read it. We do have special rates if you're coming out and being a part of the conference.

And so we want you to take advantage of that situation as well. If you have not told maybe some of your elders about this conference, you might want to let them know.

There is a webpage. I'm not 100 % certain how to get to it. That's true where the links are.

But there is a webpage concerning the conference. Okay, let me step in here. Ladies and gentlemen, he's not the world's greatest salesman, let me tell you.

No, I'm not. I can only go with what you give me, man. That's true. In the next couple of days, the

Sheraton at LAX is going to be providing us with a code and a hyperlink.

And we're going to, from our site, people will be able to link to the hotel's website, put that code in at their website, and it will automatically bring up the special rates for that weekend that our folks will be able to take advantage of.

And so we want to encourage people to take advantage of that. And remember, you don't,

I do want to mention this, you don't actually have to go on the cruise to come to the debate. Of course not. And there is two nights there that we have those special rates available to us.

And like I said before, this hotel I've been to, and it is a very nice facility, and we're really, really going to enjoy ourselves.

Okay, I'm sure I was supposed to get that out of the ten words on my screen. Okay, I'll do better next time.

Hey, you're a theologian. You're supposed to know these things. I'm sorry. Thanks. Hey, if you want the big, long, flowery promotional stuff, you got to give me the big, long, flowery promotional stuff.

I mean, that's just sort of how it works. So anyways, you need to have the Confuser up here because I'm going to play a phone call.

You know, sometimes Protestants get the idea because they hear

Roman Catholics talking about issues like grace, and it's all of grace, and maybe things really aren't all that different between us.

Well, I was listening to a recent Catholic Answers live broadcast, and Jeff Cavins was on.

He is sort of a cohort of Scott Hans, and so there is a call, and not only does it tell us something about grace, because they're talking about the title of the program is

Amazing Grace, but it also says something about how people come to end up believing things.

I've used this as an illustration many times, especially the Marian doctrines. The Marian doctrines are one of the last things that a convert wrestles with, and fundamentally they are believed on the authority of the church, not on the basis of there being logical, rational, biblical, consistent, demanded by anything.

Fundamentally, the Marian dogmas demonstrate the utter untruth of the claim on Rome's part that she functions on the basis of scripture and tradition, because neither scripture nor tradition, and tradition being used there in any meaningful historical fashion, demand or substantiate the belief in the

Marian dogmas, but they are still dogmas. They have been defined as dogmas by the church.

They are de fide, they are by faith, and they are definitional then of the Roman Catholic religion.

So there's a call here, and I don't have it on my regular thing where I can stop and start and do fun stuff like that.

I've just got a plain old real player here. But I want to play you this call. I don't know what the volume is going to be like,

Mr. Aomin. Man, I have it maxed out as far as I can get it, so we'll sort of have to play with it once we get started.

But listen to the caller and the response, and then I'll have some comments, and of course you can be calling at 877 -753 -3341.

Well, hi. Good evening. Good evening to you. I'm calling.

My question about grace is how does it factor into accepting through our faith the sacred mysteries such as the true presence of Christ in the

Eucharist, Mary's Immaculate Conception? In other words, how best can you explain this to a non -Catholic who doesn't accept that it's a mystery?

Many people that I know, you know, Jesus is our Savior. He died for our sins. His Incarnation, they consider those to be more concrete issues, whereas these are particular to our

Catholic faith. And I know that our faith in these is a gift from God.

And how can I better explain this using grace as a basis for that?

Okay. Thanks, Dorothy. Thank you. You're talking about kind of the big picture, and it would take a long time to go through each one of those particular topics.

But grace, I think, is related to trust. And from the very beginning of the

Bible to the very end, the question is posed, can you trust God? And that is the question really in the

Garden of Eden, can you trust him? And, of course, Adam didn't, and Eve didn't.

And so all throughout salvation history, every generation has a nation, an individual, a tribe, that is given the opportunity to trust

God. Paul finally comes on the scene and says that no one is righteous, not even one.

Of course, Jesus answers the question, can you trust God? And he trusts them, even if it costs him everything in his own life and suffering.

And the resurrection is one big yes and amen. It's one big answer, yes, you can, you can trust him.

And part of trusting Jesus is trusting the church that he founded, Peter as the pope, all of the early apostles, the establishment of the church, the hierarchy, the organization of the church, and also the teachings of the early church.

And so when it comes to Mary, the Immaculate Conception, all of these various doctrines that Protestants have a difficult time grasping,

I go back to I trust Jesus. And that trust in Jesus is a matter of grace.

I'm entering into the life of the Trinity as Jesus trusted the Father. I'm in the Trinity myself, and I'm trusting the

Father, not just for Jesus coming in the flesh, not just for all of the, as you said, the concrete things, but I'm trusting him for the entire economy, the entire plan of salvation, all things

Catholic. And so when someone doubts one of these things, they're going to have to take this issue into their own realm, into their own heart, and come to their own conclusions.

I'm going to stay with the church and trust Jesus, even in those issues that I don't completely understand.

This was actually the issue, Dorothy, for my wife when she came into the church. She was only about two weeks out, and she came to me and said,

I'm really having a difficult time with Mary and the perpetual virginity. And I said, well, do you think you can work this out before the next two weeks?

And she said, I don't know. And I said, can you trust the church that he established?

Can you trust the authority given to that church, passed on from generation to generation? Can you trust that church, even if you don't understand everything?

She said, I can do that. And I said, then enter in and trust and allow him to reveal that mystery to you over time.

And I think that that's a wonderful way to challenge our Protestant brothers and sisters to receive all that God has for us.

And I found it actually to be very effective. That's beautiful. And what, again, is the name of the book?

Well, we don't need to go into the advertisements here. There you have,

I think, a very, very clear example of what

I have called many times sola ecclesia, the ultimate final authority of the

Roman church. Here you have dogmas that are clearly, and he mentioned the perpetual virginity of Mary.

You've heard our debates. We've done that subject. Clearly contradicted by the text of scripture. And yet you have the statement being made, well, look, you need to trust

Jesus. You need to trust Jesus. As if trusting Jesus and trusting God's truth, including the very foundation of the

Trinity and the resurrection, these concrete things, somehow you're supposed to confuse it all together and end up believing falsehood on the same basis you believe truth.

It's no wonder, then, that you have such a fundamental denial of sola scriptura because you simply can't force people to believe untruths on the basis of sola scriptura.

Sola scriptura is, when properly understood and practiced, is the greatest way of avoiding the very ecclesiastical abuse that was just defined in those words.

Now, notice those words were very nicely spoken, very gently said.

It sounded very postmodern. You know, can you trust the church that Jesus founded?

You see, there's the catch. This isn't the church that Jesus founded. The nature of the church is one that always listens to God and his word, a church that would say, well, you need to believe things that the apostles never taught, that the early church never believed.

You still need to believe them because the church says so. That's not the church that Christ founded, and hence the error of the perspective.

877 -753 -3341. Let's go ahead and talk with another Randy, except this time in Pennsylvania.

Hello, Randy. Hello. How are you, sir? Oh, I'm okay. Thank you. Now, this is my first time ever calling, so be kind with me, please.

We're studying. I'm trying to clear my throat here. We're studying right now in our Sunday school class. Melchizedek came up, and I've had studies about Melchizedek before, especially talking about Hebrews 7, like verses 2 and 3.

I listen to you a lot, so I know we've got to lay tradition aside. I want to. I want to lay tradition aside.

I want to lay aside the commentaries and everything. Can you tell me, from the text alone,

Hebrews 7, 2 and 3, and that whole chapter,

I guess, can you tell me why I cannot, from the text, believe that the

King of Righteousness, the King of Peace, that he isn't a pre -incarnate appearance of the

Lord Jesus Christ? I believe he is, and the tradition says it's just the man that died. Well, I'm not sure what tradition you're referring to.

Both perspectives have been presented, not so much as quote -unquote tradition, but both perspectives are going to be found within the commentaries.

There are going to be those who definitely see in Melchizedek, well, I think everyone would agree that, first of all, he's a historical individual.

First of all, the argument wouldn't hold if he wasn't, and there's nothing in the presentation in Genesis that would indicate that he wasn't.

But secondly, there are those who would say, no, I don't necessarily see in Hebrews a strong enough basis for seeing this as a theophany or a

Christophany, a pre -incarnate appearance of Christ. But then there are others who say, well, actually there is.

First of all, you have so many parallels between him, and certainly the parallels exist, but then you also have in verse 3, without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the

Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually. And they would say, look, that seems to indicate that this is a pre -incarnate appearance of Christ, and we know there are other pre -incarnate appearances of Christ as well.

And therefore, there is certainly nothing that would preclude that. And I think if a person were to say, this is how

I interpret the passage, certainly no one can say, well, that makes you an orthodox, that's wrong, or anything like that. But the question is, is it absolutely demanded, when you look at verse 3, when it says, without father, without mother, without genealogy, does that mean that the historical

Melchizedek did not have a father, mother, or genealogy, or simply that the text identifies him as a priest without identifying any priestly line from which he descends?

In other words, there is a singularity as far as his priesthood is concerned, just as there is a singularity and uniqueness to Christ's priesthood.

I can see that as well, and I don't believe that it's an issue to divide fellowship over, or something like that.

I personally do, myself, lean toward the idea of a Christophany in this situation.

But I recognize that it would be something where I would have to say, I seem to see this, the parallels are very clear, the things we have to agree on is the historical reality of Melchizedek, the supremacy of his priesthood to that of the

Aaronic priesthood, represented in Abraham as the father of Aaron, and then beyond that we can discuss whether in point of fact this also would indicate that this is a

Christophany that takes place, or whether this is just simply a place where the writer of Hebrews is identifying

Melchizedek as a symbol, as one of the shadows and types that points to Christ.

And I think both are possible on the basis of meaningful exegesis of the text. Okay, I appreciate your answer.

It's just that I feel when I say about tradition, it seems like the majority of commentaries, and everybody it seems like I want to talk to almost, want to go with not him being a pre -incarnate appearance of Christ.

And I just feel that it's just forcing something else into the text.

Like verse 3, whenever you read it, he has no father, no mother, and so forth.

In order to understand it the other way, other than a pre -incarnate appearance, you have to turn that verse on its head.

You have to say, yes he did have a mother, yes he did have a father, and so forth. So it just makes that verse, it just turns it on its head.

Well, let me just sort of role play that view. I tend to think that verse 3 does indicate or leans that direction.

But the reason I say that I can see the other perspective, and I'm open to any arguments for the other perspective, is because when it says without father, without mother, without genealogy,

I can understand how that could be a commentary on the text of Genesis. That is, most of the time in the

Old Testament, when you see a priest, he is described as such and such, the son of such and such.

And his tribal relationship is indicated, which validates his priesthood claim.

There is no effort made to do this with Melchizedek. There is no mention of a father, there is no mention of a mother, there is no mention of a genealogy that establishes some connection to a pre -existing priesthood order.

That then becomes the parallel to Christ, because as the writer in Hebrews 8 says, in the next chapter, he says if he was on earth he would not be a priest, because his priesthood is of a different kind.

It is not of the old Aaronic priesthood, it is not of that tribe. And so there is the parallel to the priesthood of the

Son of God. The point is that the Greek term, made like the

Son of God, liking or resembling the Son of God, could be taken either way.

It could be a resemblance to the Son of God, that is that he is put in the narrative, the historical situation of Abraham, to function as one of those many pictures that we have in Abraham's life with Isaac, here with Melchizedek, pointing to Christ, and the greatest of the fathers of Israel.

Or it could also make the connection that this is a pre -incarnate appearance of Christ.

It can go either direction. I just don't think that the text can be made to dogmatically preclude either possibility.

I think both possibilities are there, and they need to be allowed and discussed. I just don't think that you can say, well, one is absolutely right, the other is absolutely wrong, because they're not necessarily contradictory issues.

It's not like it's an A or non -A type contradictory issue.

It's, is the text indicating possibly a greater fulfillment? Is this just merely a parallel, or is it a pre -incarnate appearance?

All right? Okay, well, I guess I'm a perfectionist or something, because when the

Bible says something, I know that it's of no private interpretation, so therefore it has to be one or the other.

When the truth is all told, it has to be one or the other, because it says about Melchizedek, it's witness that he liveth, and his priesthood never ceased.

So in my thinking, if Christ is called a priest after the order of Melchizedek, if Melchizedek died, then sort of the order of priesthood is sort of built upon a sham.

Well, I think what I would counsel you against on that is that that tends to a form of interpretation that becomes overly rigid and assumes that we can come to a, see, you're asking a question of the text and assuming that the text is intended to give you a final answer when that's not what the text is actually doing.

So you need to be careful that you don't go to the point of saying, well, look, any question that I ask, the

Bible has to give me an answer. The Bible does not have to answer every inquiry that we make of it.

It only has to communicate to us what God intends it to communicate to us. So sometimes people get confused.

They think, well, if I can ask a question... Hello? Hello? If I can ask a question of the text that it...

I'm sorry? Okay, I don't know what's going on there, but did we lose our caller?

Looks like we did. All right, well, just be careful to not ask the text questions that it's not meant to answer.

We're going to go a little bit long today because we had one more caller. I wanted to get Kendall in, and then we will wrap things up today.

Kendall, how are you? Hello? Hello, sir. How are you? I'm doing well. Well, I wanted to ask you if you would be interested in coming to Iowa...

Are there people in Iowa? Excuse me? Are there people in Iowa? A few. A few, okay. Even a few

Reform folks as well. Honestly, wow, cool. Of course, you have the famous Dutch Reform groups too, but I'm of the

Baptist persuasion. Yes, but they all stand very tall, and they're very, very calm in what they do. Well, and we're not too far from Nauvoo, which is where Joseph Smith is buried.

There you go. So a lot of historical sites there, Brigham Young's home and so forth.

And you had a million Democrats there just a few months ago. Yes. So there you go. You heard about it.

That's the only time we hear of it. Every four years we hear about it. Anyways, I'm sorry.

Well, how would you be interested in debating? If we can get a

Roman Catholic to debate you in our area, and then also in Nauvoo try and debate some

Mormon bishop? Well, two things. It all depends on the Roman Catholic, whether it's worthwhile or not.

I mean, there are some Roman Catholics that, let's just say, really can't do debates.

So it's very dependent on who you want to track down. Are they someone who can engage in a debate in a meaningful fashion? Can they hold the rules?

Things like that. If we can find, believe me, the hard part is finding people to debate that can bring something with them and not constantly hear the, oh, you're picking on a nobody, you're picking on someone who doesn't have the background, that kind of situation.

We hear that a lot, and we really do try to find the best folks we can. Secondly, I can get you in touch with someone who can help you to maybe find an

LDS person to debate, but they're even harder to get to debate. The debate

I'm doing this weekend with a Mormon in Salt Lake City, this is the third person.

We had one, showed some interest. He wouldn't do it. We got another guy, but then he found out I actually wanted to debate the issue, and so he wouldn't do it.

This is the third guy. It's highly unusual, especially to get someone in a leadership position.

Bishops are not chosen for their ability to speak and things like that. They're chosen for their ability to get volunteers to work. It might be a little bit tricky arranging that type of stuff, but one of the reasons

I wanted to get to you was that a lot of folks ask, well, how do these debates get set up? Basically sort of like this.

Someone who wants to put in a lot of time and effort, and believe me, it is a lot of time and effort, says, you know what,

I'd like to have something like this happen in this area. It would excite people. It might give our church an ability to maybe do some outreach as a result, get our people excited, and they take the bull by the horns and they contact us, and I basically say, look, right now

I'm scheduling in 2005 at the earliest, and I've already got a number of things in 2005.

Honestly, in some ways, maybe even looking at 2006, but we can get a general time frame.

Here's some of the things you want to be looking for. Here's some of the things you want to try to work on, and we go from there.

It's just a matter of contacting and saying what's the interest, and then we try to make the arrangement.

The first thing, obviously, is getting two people together and making their schedules mesh and making it happen.

But sure, I mean, if there's the kind of local interest that can put together the support that's needed to fly people in, put them up, feed them, and bring people together, and we have the facilities of being able to videotape it and things like that, then that's great.

Now, AOMN here, Rich Pierce, did have a question because he does a lot of the videotaping.

Do planes fly into Iowa? Do you have landing strips other than the biplanes?

Well, you know, we have cornfields. Your private jet can land in a cornfield.

We have some large airports that definitely, and we would want to work out all the details.

But, yeah, you gave me some things to think about. Yeah, the big thing is, basically, point one is if you have opponent

A and opponent B, putting opponent A and B in the same place at the same time is the trickiest part.

Have you been to Nauvoo, Illinois? I haven't. I have 30 digital pictures that show you the gravesite, the temple, and all that.

Well, you could probably cut that down to two or three. I'll get the idea. Either that or a URL to a website.

That's probably even easier. Yeah, that would be fine. Well, I will try and work on that. We live in a heavily

Catholic area, and the Catholic church that's close to Nauvoo on the

Iowa side is quite large, and they're very active. Yeah, you're right.

Finding somebody who is qualified, and you're right, you don't want someone saying, well, he just picked on some local priest and some lay

Mormon leader. Right, exactly. That's the big difficulty. So, hey,

I appreciate it and would look forward to getting to meet folks. I go up to Omaha and places like that, so I do go into that beautiful, wide -open area of the country once in a while.

I meet with some pastors on Thursday, and we were throwing around this idea, and I said, well,

I'll give Dividing Line a call. There you go. Appreciate your ministry, and right now

I've got on my lap debating Calvinism. Don't even get me on that.

Well, and I started a dialogue with some folks on the book, and so that's interesting as well.

Appreciate your ministry. All right, thank you very much. All right, thanks. God bless. Bye -bye. All righty. Well, thank you for those phone calls and for the interesting topics of discussion today.

The next Dividing Line is scheduled, Lord willing, for 4 p .m. on Tuesday afternoon.

Oh, Thursday afternoon. I'll get it right yet. 4 p .m. Thursday afternoon here on the Dividing Line. See you then.

God bless. Brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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