July 12, 2019 Show with Rutledge E. Etheridge III on “God Breathed: Connecting Through Scripture to God, Others, the Natural World, & Yourself”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 12th day of July 2019.

And I am thrilled to have a first -time guest today. His name is Rutledge E. Etheridge III. That is one of the coolest names,

I think, that I've ever heard in my life. I don't think I can say it without pronouncing it.

Rutledge E. Etheridge III. But he likes to go by the name Rut, and he is an assistant professor of biblical studies at Geneva College.

And today we are going to be addressing a book of his that is soon to be in print through Crown and Covenant Publications, a very good friend of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio who routinely provides us with giveaway books for our listeners.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Rut E.

Etheridge. Thank you very much, Chris. I really appreciate the opportunity. And this book of which

I speak that is soon to be in print is God -breathed, connecting through Scripture to God, others, the natural world, and yourself.

Before we go into the theme of the book, we have a tradition here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Rut, where whenever we have a first -time guest who happens to be a

Christian, which would be the vast majority of the time, we do on rare occasions interview non -Christians over reasons that may be involving a debate or this non -Christian individual may just have something very important to say for even

Christians to hear and learn from. And I'm not a modern -day ecumenist, by the way.

I want to make that clear. But for the most part, we interview Christians on this show, Bible -believing

Protestant individuals. And before we go into the theme, the tradition that we have is that you give a summary of your personal salvation story.

Let our listeners know what kind of a religious atmosphere, if any, you were raised in, and what kind of providential circumstances our

Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. Sure. Well, I first began to hear the

Gospel presented in a consistent way in a tiny little Christian school in East Longmeadow, Massachusetts, where my sister and I were reared by our parents.

And I had transferred out of a public school and into that school, and largely just because of a bad experience at the public school.

And day after day, I kept hearing of Jesus and of my need for Jesus. And my family had been a little bit in and out of church, and so there was some real consistency in the presentation.

I was quickly convinced of my need of a Savior. I had no objections whatsoever to Jesus being my

Savior. I think the thing that I struggled with most was whether he would actually hold on to me.

And so for years, really, I would say the sinner's prayer over and over, night after night, 75 times one night, because it was only 74 the previous.

And then by God's grace, through his word, through prayer, through good Bible teaching, I really started to recognize that my salvation was not a matter of my continually grasping after it, but rather of the

Lord Jesus himself holding on to me. And passages such as John chapter 10 and so many others in Scripture which speak of the invincible hold that the

Lord has upon his people really became very, very personal to me. And the

Lord has blessed this immature believer with, I hope, a greater maturity over the years, and also with the privilege now to minister to others in his great name.

Amen. And how did you discover and come to believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace, also known as Reformed theology?

Sure. When I was an undergrad at Cedarville University in Ohio, I was interested in taking a philosophy class, and one of the thinkers that we studied was

John Calvin. And for a lot of different reasons coming into my undergrad days,

I absolutely hated John Calvin. Well, he had a lot of animosity toward him.

The only problem is I had never actually read John Calvin. So you hated a figment of your imagination then?

Absolutely. I hated the stereotype. I hated the straw man. And it was some visceral hate. And so I opened up the

Institutes of Necessity, and not to praise a man, but the work that God did through him.

The opening section of the Institutes was poetry in the form of prose. And I met with a professor on campus who is no longer there, but was a scholar in Reformation history.

And one of the things that he helped me to understand was that Calvin was not this demon from Geneva, as he's often vilified as.

But the more I studied his life, the more I studied the context in which the Reformers ministered, you know, just the blood and fire and life and death ministry of the gospel that they knew.

For Calvin in particular, for me in particular, with regard to Calvin, I recognized that his life, his theology was about the kingdom.

You know, the kingdom first and foremost, and the particular doctrinal distinctive with which he is often labeled, he never shied away from, but it wasn't as if they were the leading edge of his theology.

It was getting Christians back to basics. God is God. We are not. If we are to know him, it is completely and wholly of his grace.

And once you begin to grasp that, as I experienced, a number of other particular issues begin to fall like dominoes in you.

You begin to see the sovereign grace of the Lord all throughout Scripture, and even beautifully in your own life.

Amen. Yes, the final straw that broke the camel's back of my own personal

Arminianism, as a very new Christian, even though I didn't even know what Arminianism was,

I didn't know who John Calvin was, or Jacob Arminius, or Charles Spurgeon, or even

George Whitfield. But it happened to be a tract that a friend, who was also a fellow member of Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, which is now

Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York. But this tract was

George Whitfield's letter to John Wesley on election. And it was Whitfield's biblical defenses of unconditional election that broke the straw, or that was the straw that broke the camel's back with me.

And initially, I hated it. I said, this is true, but I hate it.

And I was filled with fear about it. But then within, I would say, a couple of months, maybe less,

I fell in love with those teachings. They radicalized my personal relationship with Christ, because Christ no longer in my mind died for a nameless, faceless sea of humanity with a hypothetical redemption.

I hope that those for whom he died would be redeemed. It was an actual accomplished act.

When he said, it is finished, he redeemed me personally. And that just really revolutionized my whole understanding of the gospel and of grace itself.

Yeah, it took me several months longer. In fact, a lot longer. I remembered singing in chapel and just being so utterly disillusioned and thinking, who is this

God that I put my faith in? He seems like a tyrant. And the Spirit worked in my heart. And I gradually,

I still remember the night in my dorm room, sitting there sulking, epically and theologically sulking.

And the Lord just showed me for what I was.

I was a stubborn sheep, banging my head up against the rock of my salvation, thinking that if I were in charge of the universe and salvation and all things, that I would be so much wiser and more compassionate.

And it just makes no sense to say those kinds of things in the face of the

Lord Jesus. And so there are God -level mysteries that Calvin himself wrote about on some of those issues and said, if we plumb these depths too deeply, we're going to find ourselves in a labyrinth from which we'll never emerge.

And, you know, as Paul does in Romans 9 through 11, at some point he's done answering arguments, and he in essence just says, now you just worship.

And I think that being brought to that point of humility over and over again is such a crucial thing for each of us and only makes us want to hold out the gospel of Jesus Christ to everyone all the more fully and all the more frequently.

Yes, and although we are talking a lot about John Calvin right now, the thing that's interesting is that many non -Calvinists and especially anti -Calvinists, because there is a difference.

You can be a non -Calvinist without being malicious and being passionately in a hateful state against Calvinism.

But many non -Calvinists, or should I say anti -Calvinists, say that we worship

John Calvin, that we put Calvin above the scriptures, we put Calvin above Christ, which is a slanderous argument because I've rarely ever met anybody that comes close to that from our theological camp.

But the interesting thing to me is, in my experience as a Reformed Baptist Christian, although Calvin does come up in sermons occasionally, especially when a pastor may be quoting from the institutes or something, and although we do regard

Calvin very highly, we regard his contributions to theology very highly, it seems to me that in my experience, in all the

Bible conferences I've been to and all the Reformed churches I've been to, John Calvin is actually rarely mentioned.

I mean, you might more frequently hear Charles Spurgeon quoted, or if the speaker is quoting from a non -canonical, non -inspired, you know, earthly author,

Calvin, I think, is quoted in the minority of times, so it's kind of ironic that they would say we worship him.

Yeah, and I think Calvin would prefer perhaps even less citation, you know, and, you know, it's important for us to have thinkers as landmarks in church history to be able to look back on and to not elevate by any means above the

Word of God, but to appreciate the ways in which they may have helped us more faithfully understand that particular word.

And, you know, I'm just struck by, again, not to praise a man, but to debunk a stereotype.

You know, stories that you hear of, or that you often don't hear of Calvin, you know, for instance, he would open the door in the middle of the night to a knock, and there standing in front of him was a woman in her nightgown in blood, and her children next to her.

And what had just happened was someone had broken into their home and killed her husband in bed next to her, because her husband was a minister of the gospel.

And so Calvin and he would mobilize others in the town to take in these new widows, you know, and these semi -orphans.

And he was deeply engaged in gospel ministry on that level. He would, you know, pawn his priceless theology books to supply the material needs of these newly destitute folks.

He knew when he was sitting at breakfast with seminary students who would, in that day, typically live with their teacher, that if he had five students at breakfast, you know, three, two or three would likely die in the near future, because the gospel was being so viciously persecuted.

So I think one of the things that's helpful for us, especially in our day, you know, for any of us who would not want to claim the mantle of Calvin, but a clarity in viewing

Scripture, which he helped us to achieve, we need to remember what the lives of these

Reformers were like, and just the misery in which they served the Lord, and the self -denial that they, by God's grace in many ways, faithfully lived out.

And I think that would temper criticism of the anti -Calvinists, so to speak, but would also temper what can tend to be our own pride, you know, when sometimes we do overly identify with a particular teacher or somehow think that we're honoring him in our ill -advised polemics, especially on social media.

Right. In fact, I could say with near certainty that in the

Reform Baptist Church, where I'm a member, my pastors quote far more frequently from Martin Luther than they do from John Calvin.

Even though we would have more in disagreement with Luther, we still seem to be quoting him more often. Whoever serves

Scripture the best. You know, if you're working with a particular text, and you want to get at what the Holy Spirit put there, and, you know, whoever it is who helped us more clearly see that, you know, we want to give proper attribution and not make a sermon about them.

But the goal is to get into the Scriptures, you know, the Scriptures alone, and to see in the

Scriptures, you know, the incarnate Word who fulfills every syllable. Yeah, and I think Martin Luther is also your go -to guy when it comes to shock value.

He was a very earthy, earthy guy that didn't hold, he didn't pull back punches. Yeah, our culture does not have a monopoly on shocking things said.

Well, what particular branch of the Reformed tradition are you in? I assume, since you were once on the faculty at the

Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, I assume you're

Presbyterian. I don't know if you're a Covenanter, but tell us where you are as far as your branch of the

Reformation today. Sure. In 2006, I was ordained as a teaching elder within the

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America, and as you mentioned, I began to teach adjunct at our denominational seminary, from which

I graduated in 2006 as well, and did that for a number of years, and did that until I began to serve at my current place of employment, which is the

Denominations College at Geneva College. So that's my background since 2006. Now, how did you realize, after becoming a

Christian, that God was placing a call upon your life to enter into the ministry and also to enter into the realm of academia?

Sure. Well, in college, I pursued a degree in professional writing, and I always loved to write.

My dad was a writer, and so the more that particular pursuit took on a technical writing aspect, you know, writing manuals for computers that I would never understand in my life,

I was interested more in the creative side, and they didn't have something particularly conducive to it, and every student at my undergrad got a minor in Bible, but I had double -majored in Bible, and I remember one particular summer before my sophomore year thinking, you know what,

I'm just going to go for it, and I'm going to focus in on Bible, I'll pick up a philosophy minor, and I got to work with a wonderful pastor who was faculty as well and just mentored me along and told me in his office one day that in terms of pastoral ministry,

I'm barking up the right tree. You know, I love interacting with people on the basis of Scripture, I love serving them in the name of Christ and just diving deep into the

Word of God, and at first I was terrified of public speaking, which pastors tend to have to do, but there was just something galvanizing about declaring the

Lord's Word, you know, and hearing it even as you're preaching it, sitting under it even as you're preaching it, and the

Lord really blessed that, not only the sense of internal call, but as I was developing more

Reformed convictions, we landed in an RPCNA church, my wife and I, in the late 90s, early 2000s, and a number of the elders there recognized what they thought was the

Lord's work in me, and I did what was called being taken under care of presbytery, where you're mentored by elders and put on a trajectory toward pastoral ministry, and the

Lord ultimately brought that to fruition. Now, can you tell us a little bit about Geneva College, where you serve on the faculty?

Sure. Yeah, Geneva College is right here in Western PA. It's a liberal arts college, and one of the features that I love most about Geneva is that it is an open -enrollment college, meaning that we do not require a profession of faith of our students.

They can come from any faith or no particular faith at all, which just makes it a wonderful mission field where the missional nature of the place is obvious, and we wear it on our sleeve, as opposed to having to perhaps dig beneath the surface a little bit to find the same dynamics in colleges, which, as is their prerogative, will, in essence, manufacture the ethos of their own student body by the required profession of faith.

So that's one of my favorite parts about being here. The website is geneva .edu,

geneva .edu. Now let's begin our discussion on this book that you have written,

God Breathed, Connecting Through Scripture to God, Others, the Natural World, and Yourself.

In fact, since I have a very dear friend, a longtime dear friend who is a New Testament Greek scholar,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. Oh, yes. One of the few Greek terms that I can remember since he's mentioned it so often is theanoustos, which means

God breathed. Yes. Tell us exactly what that means. I know that most often we who are

Christians, especially perhaps evangelicals, we will speak about the divine inspiration of the

Scripture. Yes. But in actuality, the Scripture is expired.

We don't use that term because it connotates death in our minds.

Yes. So we don't use that, expired, but it is breathed out. It is not breathed in. That's right.

That's right. Yes. Paul in 2 Timothy 3 .16 makes this really stunning claim about Scripture.

He says, all Scriptures, as he says, theanoustos, it's breathed out by God. And then he goes on to enumerate the particular uses of Scripture.

And it's just such a stunning claim that he makes. You know, obviously he has in mind the

Old Testament Scriptures, which were to that extent, but is making a statement as to anything that would count as Scripture.

It is God breathed. It is breathed out by God. But it's a statement in wonderful harmony with what our

Lord Jesus says, that we do not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

And in fact, it was a lecture or perhaps a debate that James White was involved in where it really struck me.

And I'm sorry, I don't remember the reference, but he pointed out that Jesus would refer to the written word as something that was heard.

And so there's this dynamic of that which was said by God. The written word is every bit as much the word of God as if God was speaking out loud to us right now.

And Paul is imbuing his pastoral protege, Timothy, with that conviction and with that reminder and with that call to persevere in the word and in preaching the word, because it is nothing less than the breathed out word of God.

Amen. And when I read this entire quote, or this entire title,

I should say, God breathed connecting through scripture to God, others, the natural world, and yourself.

I am reminded of a phrase, I think I first heard it years ago from Dr. Joel Beeke, president of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary.

But the term that I heard years ago is experimental or experiential

Calvinism. Does that have something to do with why you titled your book this way? Sure, though I'd never thought of it in those terms.

I think the heart of what Dr. Beeke is communicating is very much there and hearkens back to what

I mentioned earlier about Calvin's own life in terms of his refusal to sit idle and pontificate, but rather actually get into the trenches of hands -on gospel ministry.

And the idea, as Dr. Beeke has recently written on it as well, is to really live it out.

These are not dry academic theories. I think it was Bootser who said, true theology is not theoretical and speculative, but it's active and practical.

And that's one of the things I love about scripture the most, and one of the things that really prompted me into the writing of this particular book is that scripture has a built -in epistemology.

You don't really know unless you do. You don't really understand the Word of God.

You're not reacting rightly to it unless it actually manifests itself in your life in discernible ways that look increasingly like God's law, like his character.

And I love that, and it's such an important thing for this generation.

And by that, I don't just mean the young adults who are the target audience of my book, but generation in the way scripture often uses it as a common characteristic and maybe not a common chronology.

It's such a good word for this generation to hear that scripture itself is utterly unsatisfied with empty theory and ivory tower speculations, but scripture itself drives us to a life that Jesus summarizes as loving

God with all that we are and loving our neighbors as ourselves. Now, you quoted a big, fancy ivory tower word there, epistemology.

That would be why we believe what we believe. Would that be correct, a way of defining that?

It gets into that as it explores issues of faith. Most basically, it's the study of knowledge. It's how we know what we know, what we mean to know.

Like you said, it's an ivory tower word that you can put in front of people and they might think you're smart, which much of teaching comprises.

Well, we are going to our very first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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USA. And don't go away, God willing. We're going to be right back after these messages with more of Rhett Etheridge and our discussion on the new book that is soon to be in print,

God Breathe. Got to tell you, for my money,

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That's Solid -Ground -Books .com. We are now back with our guest today, Rutledge E. Etheridge III, Associate, or should

I say Assistant, Professor of Biblical Studies at Geneva College. We are discussing a book that is soon to be in print, written by our guest,

God Breathed, Connecting Through Scripture to God, Others, the Natural World, and Yourself.

And, Rut, I was interestingly and providentially having a conversation with my friend

Buzz Taylor today. Buzz Taylor, who many of our listeners of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio will recognize that name because he, for quite a while, was my co -host.

And he has been spending a lot of his time lately writing his own book on eschatology, so he had to take a hiatus from being our co -host, and he may be back in the near future.

But we were having a discussion on true and false revival, and Buzz was reminding me that from his study of revivals, both true and false, he said that the false revivals were not coming about through a connection to the scripture.

They were coming from one's personal emotions and through experience primarily.

Would you say that that is a valid statement that Buzz made, that from his understanding of history, the false revivals really have little to do with the

God -breathed words contained in the inerrant scriptures? Sure. You know, I'm no scholar on revivalism, but that, of course, is always the tendency of the human heart, and sometimes it comes garbed in the name of Christian faith that we look to ourselves for truth.

And when we try to, as it were, baptize that subjectivity, then we end up interpreting the

Word of God not as He intended it, but as we want it to be. And that can lead to a whole lot of what feels like very sincere, emotively satisfying faith experiences, and yet perhaps crownless with regard to any actual objective truth from scripture itself.

Amen. Now, another thing that seems to remove scripture from the scenario is a lot of mysticism that goes on today, even within evangelicalism, where people want to connect with God by emptying their minds, by seemingly waiting for some kind of a supernatural experience that may involve the reciting of mantras and things like that, even if they sound like very wonderful mantras that include the name of Jesus.

But it is not to do with filling the mind with scripture to connect with God.

It is in their minds, emptying their minds to connect with God. This is a very dangerous trend, isn't it?

Yes, for all kinds of reasons and in all kinds of ways. The idea that the Bible is actually the breathed -out

Word of God, and that through it and through prayer we can have meaningful, experiential encounters with the living

God, it's fallen on very hard times. And with the rise of neo -paganism and other trends in culture, you can see a very deep hunger for transcendence, and yet we've been taught for centuries to not look for any truth that is higher than yourself.

And within Christianity, even allegedly Bible -affirming

Christianity, we can very quickly gauge the sincerity of our belief that the

Bible is actually the Word of God by just doing a rather convicting self -analysis of how quickly we pick up the

Bible and how quickly we put it down. Would our lives be that radically altered if, for instance, all of a sudden, like so many of our persecuted brethren throughout the world, we no longer had direct and immediate access to God's Word?

Would that actually alter our daily experience all that significantly?

And so one of the things I want to explore, and I tried to explore in my book, is what are the barriers?

What are the obstacles? What's the disconnect, both among unbelievers as well as believers, from this idea that the

Bible is actually exactly what it claims to be from cover to cover? Well, we have a question from a listener that relates exactly to what you're saying.

And I rarely give full names of listeners, but I'm making an exception this time because he has been a guest and co -host on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio.

I'm referring to Charlie Liebert, who is an author, and he is the founder of 6daycreation .com.

He's a former colleague with Ken Ham, now operating as an independent apologist and author, and itinerant teacher and evangelist.

Charlie Liebert asks, What is the most convincing argument for the inspiration of the Bible? Wow, what a profound question.

It begs other questions in terms of what does it mean to be convinced. You know, what is our criterion for being convinced?

But, you know, this is going to sound to some like circular reasoning, although all thought played out ultimately assumes some kind of presupposed predicate.

But as you look to the Scriptures, what's most compelling to me is the testimony of the

Lord Jesus about the Scriptures. And again, some would say, well, you're going to the Bible to prove the

Bible, and yet there was a whole lot of Scripture that was around, you know, the entire Old Testament canon before our

Lord came into this world. And when you see Jesus' interactions with the

Scriptures, when you read, you know, His heart's agony and His heart's triumphs, always framed in biblical terms, when

He speaks to His Father, even on the cross, especially on the cross, He's quoting from the

Psalms in several different places. So the Lord Jesus' own view of the breathed -out

Old Testament in particular, I think is just utterly compelling, especially for anyone who holds

Jesus in high regard, much less worships Him as the living God. By the way,

Charlie, you have won a free copy of the book that we are addressing. You're going to have to be patient because it's not in print yet, but God Breathed, Connecting Through Scripture to God, Others, the

Natural World, and Yourself. That will be yours as soon as we have them in our hands, so make sure that you provide for us your mailing address again so that we can have that shipped out to you by our friends at cvbbs .com,

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, who sponsor this program and ship out all of the books and Bibles and other things that our listeners win when they submit questions to our guests.

Thanks a lot, Charlie, for the excellent question. It actually reminds me, when you were talking about circular reasoning,

I had a humorous conversation years ago. It wasn't intended to be humorous, and it might not have been very humorous at the time, but when

I reflect upon it, it strikes me still as being very humorous.

A friend of mine who was actually in a band for many years with one of my oldest brothers,

Andrew, he was at one time a fire -breathing, King James -only fundamentalist.

In fact, he was a disciple of Peter Ruckman, the late Peter Ruckman in Pensacola, Florida, and he became an atheist.

He was having this discussion with me with a pastor friend of mine sitting passively next to me, and this gentleman was getting frustrated that I had an answer for everything he had to throw at me regarding atheism and why

I should reject Christianity, and he kept saying, You're basing your whole life on a book, and he kept repeating that.

Eventually I asked him, So what convinced you of atheism? He said, Oh, I read so many books.

I said, Oh, so you're faulting me for basing my eternal life on a book, and yet you're basing your eternal life on many books that probably will be long forgotten within a few years, whereas the book that I am basing my life on,

I am totally convinced God breathed and is supernatural and is inerrant and has stood the test of time for millennia.

It's a question of authority, isn't it? Each of us has an unchallenged or at least often unchallenged authority somewhere way deep in the bottom of our belief system.

It's perhaps empirically unverifiable. It can't be proven in the way that we typically expose other belief systems we disagree with to certain standards of proof.

There's some authority, whether it's looking in the mirror, whether it's a book, whether it's whatever it is.

Each of us has that particular, dare we say, absolute in our lives that drives our ethics, that drives our thinking, and that therefore drives what we consider to be a credible explanation of the world and of life phenomena or just circumstances in our own lives.

So that's a telling answer, you heard. It really is. Yeah, and I think that we

Christians should never forget when we are locked in a discussion, a dispute, an argument with those that hate

Christianity and hate the Bible and mock it and so on, we have to remember,

I think this is a key area where our reformed faith comes into play, it is not up to us to convince people of the truth.

It is only up to us, it is commanded of us to declare the truth.

And God is the one who brings the increase. We can only plant and water seeds.

And don't you think that we always have to remember when we get frustrated and depressed and angry about our failures, it seems, when trying to convince others of the truth of the

Bible or even of the reliability and the inspiration of the scriptures, that this is a book that is

God -breathed and is miraculous in nature when it takes hold in a person's heart and mind.

There is something supernatural, profoundly supernatural and miraculous when the spiritually dead are raised to newness of life and go from mocking or ignoring the

Bible to embracing it and loving it and believing it. There has to be a work of the

Holy Spirit involved in this, because you could even have an academic scholar, historian, who is a mainline liberal

Protestant perhaps, or a liberal Catholic, or whoever the person may be, who has memorized great volumes of scripture by heart and yet is as dead and as lost as loss can be.

They may know the words, but that miracle hasn't happened in their heart. Yeah, I think one of the most heartening aspects of scripture itself and the

Christian faith is it's not afraid of inquiry. It's not afraid to be scrutinized.

It's not afraid to be interrogated. You know, one of the church fathers famously said, when someone asked him, you know, how do you defend scripture, and he replied,

I just as soon defend a lion. You know, it doesn't need to be defended. It will do its own work. And so one of the things that I think is very helpful, especially in an erratically post -Christian culture, is to really invite the inquiry, you know, not the autonomous inquiry that, you know, refuses from the outset to even think that a speaking

God is possible, because that inquiry is no inquiry. There's no honesty there.

It begins by assuming that which it holds true and never gets to any honest investigation of its own beliefs.

But, you know, to be able to say, like the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, you know, there are those in his day who are still alive, who are eyewitnesses of the

Lord Jesus. He says, you know, around 500 or so, you know, if you're a prosecuting attorney and you're able to march in five eyewitnesses, it's amazing.

You know, if you can march in the better part of 500, it's judicial ecstasy. So there is within scripture, you know, those historic, rooted -in -the -real -world kinds of claims, and yet to your point, those are not going to in themselves produce faith.

Historical arguments, you know, the words of God, Paul's words preached, can produce faith if blessed by the

Spirit, but simply coming to a greater familiarity with the reasonableness of the resurrection is not in and of itself going to do it.

Jesus said, even if someone is going to rise from the dead, you know, this generation is not going to believe in the

Lord. And so there is absolutely that work of the Spirit, and yet it's not some kind of Gnostic, detached -from -observable -reality kinds of secretive, you know, mystery kind of religion.

You know, Christianity is rooted in reality. It's historical. And I love the fact that it invites that kind of inquiry and that kind of honest conversation.

We're going to go to our midway break, but before we go to our midway break, I want to ask of you a question submitted by one of our listeners, and then you can answer it when we come back.

Sure. We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who asks something that your guest said made me think that he is probably a presuppositionalist.

Is that true? We'll have you answer that when we come back. This is a longer -than -normal break.

As always, that we have every day in Iron Trip and Zion Radio because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, airs our program every day twice a day in a prerecorded format, and they have to localize this show to Lake City, Florida, according to FCC regulations.

So they air their own public service announcements and commercials in the middle of our show, while we air our own commercials that are heard globally.

So during this longer break than normal, we ask of you to use this time wisely.

We ask of you to write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more successfully patronize them because the more our advertisers hear from you, the more that you patronize them and use their services or buy their products or attend their worship services or whatever the case may be, the more likely we are going to remain on the air because when our advertisers see results, they are more than likely going to stick around.

So please remember that. Don't just bypass these advertisements and ignore them.

Please write down the information provided by them so that you can help us remain on the air for a longer period of time.

In addition to that, use this time wisely by writing in your own questions to our guest today,

Rutt Etheridge, and that is on the theme, God -breathed, connecting through Scripture to God, others, the natural world, and yourself.

So send in those emails to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away.

We're going to be back after these messages with more of Rutt Etheridge and God -breathed. Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

Christian perspective. Try World Now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow .com.

That's getworldnow .com. I rely on World because I trust the reporting. I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to the news stories that really matter.

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Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes biweekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully shareable content of World Digital.

There's no obligation and no credit card required. Visit getworldnow .com

today. Also check out World News Group's podcast, The World and Everything in It, at wng .org

forward slash podcast. That's W for World, N for News, G for Group, dot org forward slash podcast.

Got to tell you, for my money, Chris Arnzen's radio program is just the best.

Iron. Criticizing Iron. I think that's what it's called.

This is Todd Friel of Wretched Radio and TV, with Phil Johnson of Grace to you, inviting everybody to come to the

G3 conference, which has almost instantly become one of the best conferences in the country. And it is.

It's a great conference. I love it. And Chris Arnzen was there last year. He's been there, I think, every year.

It's great to see him there. You and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place, which is a highlight for me.

So tons of stuff going on. Yeah. Tons of great speakers. And no matter where you are in the building, you will hear Chris Arnzen's laugh.

And that's worth the price of admission alone. If you would like to join Phil, me, Chris, and a cavalcade of great preachers, so it should be a cavalcade of great preachers, and me, g3conference .com,

g3conference .com. And now there's even more exciting news. John MacArthur himself is now also on the lineup at the

G3 conference. Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th, 2020.

Go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com. See you there. Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently, he wrote a book titled

Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy. Currently, his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history.

In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal.

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Did you know that all believers are priests?

In 1 Peter 2 verse 9, the Apostle Peter describes Christ's church as comprising a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

So if you're a Christian, you're also a priest. Now you can find the newest styles in Reformed and Protestant apparel at CitizenPriest .com.

CitizenPriest .com specializes in Christian -themed t -shirts and clothing especially for Reformed Christians.

CitizenPriest .com's merchandise is purposefully Scripture -based and meant for the edification of the saints and the furtherance of the gospel.

Let everyone know that you stand firm on the doctrines of the Reformed faith by wearing apparel from CitizenPriest .com.

Visit CitizenPriest .com today. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post -Tenebrous

Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan. All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my

Nestle All in 28th edition with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a

French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

For more details on Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.

That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. Hi, this is

John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

Arn Sharpen's Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the

Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Arn Sharpen's Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift, or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ArnSharpen'sIronRadio .com,

where you can click support. That's ArnSharpen'sIronRadio .com. Arn Sharpen's Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine

Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the

Bible's reliability, and to introduce Reformation literature and Christian art to a broader audience.

Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the Northeast United States, reaching thousands of believers and nonbelievers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the

Bible. HBS's founder, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, is committed to sharing this collection along with an inspirational historical message that will captivate you and your church.

Come journey through their website, historicalbiblesociety .org. The collection includes a complete 11th century

Bible, an actual page of the Gutenberg Bible from 1455, the first book ever printed, the

Geneva Bible, the 1611 King James Bible, and much, much more. Visit historicalbiblesociety .org

today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Todd and Patty specialize in supplying Reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable to everyone.

Since 1987, the family -owned and operated book service has sought to bring you the best available

Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices. Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means that you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting material promoted by the secular book vendors.

Their website is cvbbs .com. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the

Church, and to Christ. That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com.

That's cvbbs .com. Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

And you can also call cvbbs .com at their toll -free number, 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231,

Monday through Friday between 10 a .m. and 430 p .m. Eastern Time. Try not to call outside of those hours because you're not going to get a voicemail or anyone manning that phone line outside of those hours.

That's Monday through Friday, 10 a .m. to 430 p .m. Eastern Time, 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231.

When you purchase anything from cvbbs .com, no matter how inexpensive, you will get for free, if you ask for it, the book

True Love, Understanding the Real Meaning of Christian Love by Dr. James M. Renahan, president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas, one of our sponsors on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

By the way, their website at the IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas, is irbsseminary .org,

irbsseminary .org. Remember the two S's back -to -back in the middle, irbsseminary .org.

But you will get this free book, True Love, Understanding the Real Meaning of Christian Love by Dr.

Renahan, simply by putting that in the comments section at cvbbs .com when you place any order, no matter how inexpensive.

This is a beautiful little hardback published by Evangelical Press. Now, you will also get another book, which is much larger, another beautiful hardback with a gorgeous cover from Evangelical Press, a book by my friend

John Thornberry, which is actually my favorite of all Christian biographies, my favorite of all biographies, period.

This is A Pastor in New York, The Life and Time of Spencer Cone. This is a remarkable biography that, before I was even halfway through it,

I was saying in my mind, somebody has got to make this into a major motion picture, at the very least a documentary, because of the fascinating life of Spencer Cone.

He was a 19th century particular Baptist pastor in Manhattan, First Baptist Church of New York City, which still stands.

In fact, I had a Bible conference in 2018 at the

First Baptist Church of New York City that my friend Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, conducted there.

But he is just such a remarkable person, Spencer Cone. He was a school teacher, a lawyer, a theater actor in the 19th century, a stage actor.

He was a war hero in the War of 1812. He was, as I said, a pastor in Manhattan, facing all kinds of theological controversies surrounding him being a particular

Baptist pastor. Today they are more commonly known as Reformed Baptists, although one of my sponsors still uses that title.

Sovereign Grace Particular Baptist Church in Texas. But if you want to get a hold of this book, which is my favorite of all biographies, you have to purchase at least $50 worth of merchandise from cvbbs .com.

You have to add this book into your cart, A Pastor in New York, The Life and Time of Spencer Cone by John Thornberry.

You have to add it into the cart, and then when you include an additional $50 worth of merchandise, if you enter the coupon code

IRONSHARPENSIRON, all capitals, all one word, the price of A Pastor in New York will be subtracted from your total.

And you'll also get, if you ask for it, True Love by James M.

Renahan, the previously mentioned book, both by Evangelical Press. If you want to make your life a lot easier getting these free books, jot down their toll -free number and just tell them this verbally, 800 -656 -0231, 800 -656 -0231, and tell them that you want both of those books,

True Love by James M. Renahan, and A Pastor in New York, The Life and Time of Spencer Cone by John Thornberry.

If you purchase at least $50, you'll get both of them, and you'll get the book, True Love, for any purchase.

And always, you have to remember to tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on IRONSHARPENSIRON Radio.

I have a couple more announcements to make regarding special events that I hope that you all attend.

First of all, we've got an event featuring the aforementioned Tony Costa, a very dear friend of mine, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

He is going to be speaking at a conference coming up August 2nd through the 5th.

That's Friday through Thursday in 2019, of course.

And that's August 2nd through the 5th at the Church at Friendship in Hockley, Texas.

Dr. Costa is going to be the keynote speaker at this conference that we hope that you attend.

And if you want more information about that, you're going to have to email me at chrisarnzen at gmail dot com, chrisarnzen at gmail dot com, because I just had all of the information in front of me, and it vanished.

So I'll be updating you next week with the details on that. But if you want them immediately, email me at chrisarnzen at gmail dot com, chrisarnzen at gmail dot com.

That's the conference featuring Dr. Tony Costa of Toronto Baptist Seminary in Hockley, Texas, coming up August 2nd through the 5th.

Then after that, in December, Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th,

I am packing up my bags and heading back to my old stomping grounds in New York City to attend the

Foundations Conference, a conference of sermonaudio .com. The Foundations Conference has become one of my favorite conferences to attend, and what better time of year to go to Manhattan than Christmas season?

I can't think of any place I'd rather be during the Christmas season than New York City. And this conference includes a phenomenal lineup, as it always does.

Dr. Stephen J. Lawson of One Passion Ministries is on the roster. Paul Washer is on the roster.

Reverend Jeff Thomas is on the roster. Armand Tomassian, who is going to be, in my opinion, in my strongly held opinion, a household name over the next decade amongst

Reformed Christians. He is that powerful, that gifted, a remarkable young man with talents and abilities far beyond his youth, a really remarkable preacher.

Richard Colwell Jr. and Andrew Quigley are also on the lineup, but I have never heard them yet.

But since sermonaudio selected them, they must be remarkable. So, if you want to attend with me this

Christmas season, December 19th and 20th, that's Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th, in New York City. If you want to attend with me, go to thefoundationsconference .com,

thefoundationsconference .com. Then in January, I'm packing up my bags again and heading down south to Atlanta, Georgia, more specifically to College Park, Georgia, to the

Georgia International Convention Center. And I am going to be once again manning my exhibitor's booth for Iron Trip and Zion Radio at the

G3 Conference. The G3 Conference stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory, and they always have an absolutely extraordinary lineup of speakers.

You've been hearing the ads I've been running, I'm sure, with Todd Friel and Phil Johnson promoting this conference.

They are on the roster of this conference. But also, the exciting news is that John MacArthur himself has also been recently included on the roster.

Other speakers are Kosti Hinn, who is a Reformed Baptist pastor in California and a cessationist.

And he is, believe it or not, the nephew of the notorious charlatan and heretic Benny Hinn.

And Kosti Hinn doesn't mind me saying that because a major part of the mission that he has in life is to expose his own uncle and all within the

Word of Faith movement for the dangerous, deadly, and damning heretics that they are.

And he is on the lineup. Darrell Bernard Harrison, a new member of the

Grace to You ministry team at the ministry of John MacArthur. David Miller, who is a phenomenal preacher.

Derek Thomas, who I'm sure most of the Reformed listeners in the

Iron Trip and Zion audience are very familiar with the name Derek Thomas. My friend that we've been mentioning during the show,

Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. Jeremy Volo, who was a professional soccer player with the

San Antonio Scorpions. He is now a Reformed Baptist pastor in Laredo, Texas, and a good friend of mine. He's also married to one of the

Duggars, by the way. One of the Duggar girls. Joel Beeke, one of my oldest friends from my

Christian days going back to the 1990s. He is president of Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

We have Paul Washer and Dr. Stephen J. Lawson are also on the lineup at this conference. Todd Friel, as I mentioned before,

Dr. Tom Askell, the executive director of Founders Ministries, the Calvinistic ministry within the

Southern Baptist Convention, and also a very old friend of mine. Vody Baucom, one of the finest preachers alive today, and more.

If you want to register for the G3 conference, go to g3conference .com g3conference .com

and because of the fact that they draw an audience of over 5 ,000 a year,

I would strongly urge you, if you have a business, a parachurch ministry, a special event, or something else that you want to promote to the body of Christ, this is an excellent opportunity to man an exhibitors booth at a conference where there is an enormous crowd.

I think that even though they've been getting over 5 ,000 people there every year, now that they have

Dr. John MacArthur added to the lineup, I think they're going to have over 6 ,000 people there. I am very confident of that.

I will be manning my exhibitors booth. I hope that you have one near me. Go to g3conference .com

g3conference .com, not only to register to attend, but also for an exhibitors booth if that applies to you.

Remember to always tell all of our advertisers that you heard about their conferences or their products or their services from Chris Arntzen on IronTruppin's Iron Radio.

Last but not least, if you love IronTruppin's Iron Radio, you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves.

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That email address, chrisarnsen at gmail .com is also where you can send in a question for our guest today.

By the way, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church and you are not prayerfully looking for one, you're living in rebellion against God, please rectify that situation.

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world and I've helped many people in our audience find churches near them, even in parts as far away as Australia and all over the

United States. I've also helped people find churches where they're going on vacation or for family members that live far away from them.

Please, if you need a church recommendation, send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

and put I need a church or something like that in the subject line. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com and send in your questions for our guest today so that we can have him answer those questions, if he can.

That is Rutledge E. Etheridge III, Assistant Professor of Biblical Studies at Geneva College.

We are discussing his book, God Breathed, Connecting Through Scripture to God, Others, the Natural World, and Yourself.

It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com and you may remember, Rut, that before the break we had

B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania ask, is your guest a presuppositionalist? Maybe if you want to give us a brief definition of what that is and compare it to an evidentialist.

Sure. Very astute listener, and I was actually thinking in the previous hour when I said something that's probably going to send off a signal.

Presuppositionalism is usually discussed as an approach to apologetics, which really tries to identify, and if it's a non -Christian idea, confront what the name suggests.

The presupposition, the assumptions that are behind whatever particular belief is being interacted with.

Evidentialism, put somewhat simply, is one that would rely more heavily upon the historical veracity of the

Christian scriptures, or perhaps making arguments based upon scientific data and look for confirmation of biblical truth in studies of creation.

It's an oversimplification of both, but I hope a fair enough assessment. And I do appreciate presuppositionalism quite a bit.

I don't want to necessarily put myself exclusively in one particular camp.

You know, as we were talking last hour, I think it's good to delve into and draw the benefits from different Christian thinkers insofar as how we understand

Scripture, and I think the same is true at different camps of theological endeavor, like apologetics.

One thing I really do appreciate about presuppositionalism, at least as I've understood and employed it, is in our culture, where really the gloves are coming off in terms of what people believe and an increasingly open hostility toward Bible -believing

Christianity. One of the things this approach does is it gets us immediately to where all spiritual conversations along those lines ultimately go and ultimately assume.

It's Jesus versus false gods, and we're immediately there, you know, in this particular approach.

Amen. And one of the things I think that it does as well is it helps to prevent those we are speaking with to drag us into rabbit trails.

A lot of times enemies of the Bible and of Christianity will purposely, when they see they're getting backed into a corner on something, they will immediately bring you on a rabbit trail to purposely avoid answering the questions that you had that they couldn't answer and try to stump you by just bringing up things that in many circumstances no human can answer.

Things that the Bible is ignorant, or not ignorant, silent, I should say. The Bible isn't ignorant on anything.

The things that the Bible are silent on. So, it is helpful in that way.

But I can say that although I think evidentialists are in a minority amongst

Reformed Christians, at least today, a couple of my greatest heroes of the

Christian faith who are now in eternity with Christ were evidentialists, and that would be R .C. Sproul, and also

Dr. John Gerstner. Gerstner, absolutely. Both of them were evidentialists, and actually at least at one point were strongly opposed to presuppositionalism, although I think that they've changed their mind now, since they're in eternity with Christ.

But anyway, I think that we do ourselves and the body of Christ a disservice when we get hot -headed over these kinds of things.

Intermural debates, and I'm glad you mentioned that, and I'll do a little bit of a plug for Geneva College.

We were recently blessed with the John Gerstner Library. The family bequested to us a number of wonderful resources from Dr.

Gerstner, and so we had a ceremony officially receiving those gifts just before our commencement in early

May. And so I think it's a situation, ideally, in which one approach compliments another, and both are seeking to be biblically faithful, and I couldn't agree with you more that arguing amongst ourselves hot -headedly about method obscures the intent of any of these approaches, which is to bring the

Word of God faithfully to bear on whatever particular issue we're happening to engage at the moment. Now, is one of the aspects of connecting through Scripture to God, is one of the aspects in your book, as I haven't read it yet, it's not in print yet, but is it that our prayer life should be more scripturally informed?

I do deal with that, particularly in Chapter 2, which I've entitled The Bible Takes God Seriously, Do Christians?

And it's not a polemic on worship practices by any means, but it's calling all of us who profess the name of Jesus to really reckon with whether we believe what we say.

And there's nothing new there, but I think in our day and age, as we mentioned toward the beginning of the first hour, we've so subjectivized truth that we can end up having faith in our faith, or we worship our worship thinking that we're worshiping the

Lord Jesus, and what calls us out of that subjectivity is the Word of God itself, and so we need to ask questions as Christians how thoroughly informed and fueled by Scripture are my thoughts about God?

Are my songs about God? Are my prayers to God? Am I praying in the way that the

Scriptures record some of those beautiful prayers, be it the Lord's Prayer or the way that Paul prayed for his people, certainly including particular matters, but always with an eye toward the eternal, and so connecting to God through Scripture largely...

I mean, it's meant for Christians as well. You know, we live in a day and age in which truth itself isn't really believed in except as it exists within ourselves, and so what do you do in a cultural venue in which everyone largely has been taught that there is no transcendent truth, or that if there is, it's not accessible?

What do you do with a book that claims to be God's own truth? And so this book really explores that barrier.

It explores not only the barrier latent within us and our sinful nature that keeps us away from God's Word, but even the way that we in the

West have philosophically institutionalized that separation through various thinkers trying to serve

Christ, ironically, and yet who taught us that a God who is silent is more worthy of praise than a

God who speaks. You know, when you said, when you made the statement, do we really believe what we say we believe?

I think you made that statement anyway. I was immediately transported back in time to my early days of Christianity.

I was at the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology at 10th Presbyterian Church, and the aforementioned

Dr. John Gerstner was speaking, and James Montgomery Boyce was sitting behind him, and James Montgomery Boyce turned as white as a ghost.

He looked a bit fearful about what Dr. Gerstner was saying, but Dr. Gerstner was comparing

Calvinists and Arminians, and he was calling Calvinists tulip Christians, and he was calling Arminians, I think, lilac

Christians. He had developed an acronym to describe Arminians, and I think it was lilac.

But anyway, Dr. Gerstner said, You cannot be a lilac

Christian, actually believe what you say you believed, and be saved.

Let me repeat that. You cannot be a lilac Christian. Actually believe what you say you believe, and still be saved.

I think it struck fear in Dr. Boyce's mind and heart, because he knew that a lot of Arminians listened to the

Bible Study Hour, which was a globally heard radio program. But I don't know if I would fully agree with that statement, but there is a lot of truth packed into that idea that sometimes if you take your belief system to its logical conclusion, many people outside of what we believe, the doctrines of sovereign grace, really, even if they would never say it in words specifically, they're taking too much credit for their salvation upon themselves.

And even I have had conversations with non -reformed

Christians who when I have explained to them that God is sovereign over all things, that nothing happens apart from His sovereign decree, they have said, even if they started the question by saying there's not really too much of a difference between Calvinism and Arminianism, I think that a lot of people make too big of a deal out of it, by the end of the conversation, they're saying with intensity and veins popping out of their neck, if God is the way you described

Him, I do not want any part of Him, I do not want to worship Him. And I have said to them, you have to be very careful about saying things like that, because in my opinion, you've just blasphemed

God, and if you're wrong about what you've said, that's a very dangerous position to put yourself in.

Have I overstated this? Well, you know, I think we want to be especially careful because, you know, again, when we take up the mantras and the labels of a theological camp or a particular thinker, sometimes we forget that we're not, at least on a popular level, we're not really dealing with what those thinkers actually wrote and taught.

There's not a deep familiarity typically with what a James or Miniatur or a Calvin or a

Luther or an Erasmus or any of those thinkers actually taught and consistently held.

And so we almost have a conversation apart from the real important conversation where it becomes whose understanding of this thinker is better than their understanding of it, and it just circles around itself and ends up getting into a bunch of ad hominem attacks that really don't help anyone.

And so, you know, saving faith is a gift from the

Lord that grows and matures. And one of the things that can happen, and it's inevitable, is that true children of God will get confused and sometimes led astray by unbiblical ideas.

You know, so much of Scripture is written because of that very fact. And so I think we want to be careful to hear people out and recognize that what they may be saying is the heat of the moment, and to really sit down and calmly work through what is actually believed by that particular person or ourselves, and measure it up against the

Word of God. You know, I think one of the best examples of this is in J .I. Packer's classic book

Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God, in which he takes what are typically held to be

Arminian presuppositions and demonstrates that no one practically lives that out.

He says, if we have ever prayed for God to save someone, then we've violated what's become known as Arminius' teaching with regard to free will.

And so I think we get lost in the shuffle of a lot of those things, and it's helpful to go back to basics, and as I mentioned with regard to I think the true benefit of studying

Calvin, just a reminder that God is God, that we are not, and then we begin from there, and from that essential point of humility to which the

Bible takes us in its very first words. It's only from that standpoint of humility that we can rightly receive and live out what the

Bible says all the way through on to the end of Revelation. Yes, and in fact, I think that we have a listener that is making a good point.

We have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says, let us not forget those who profess to be

Calvinists who actually violate the biblical teachings of their so -called heroes of the faith by going far beyond what those teachers ever said or wrote.

Yes, of course, there are hypo -Calvinists who might even be more dangerous than hyper -Arminians who don't even believe in the necessity of evangelism, who actually live out the caricature or stereotype that the

Arminians have against us, and that could be equally, if not more, dangerous to be a hyper -Calvinist.

But of course, we must always remember that many non -Calvinists call anybody who is a Calvinist a hyper -Calvinist, just because we believe in the five points, or we believe in God's total sovereign control over all things, they are labeling us hyper.

So we have to make those distinctions, don't we? We do, and I think the best thing in the midst of all of that is for us to calm down and just to start looking at the scriptures themselves and really work through some of the practical implications of the major principles that are mentioned, and also the practical benefits.

You know, you mentioned that during the first hour with regard to the Atonement, and I think it's good for us to acknowledge that we want to, when we're dealing with Scripture, we want to remember and really seek to discover why the particular author wrote what he did, when he did, to whom he did.

You know, we know it's ultimately the Holy Spirit, and it's the Holy Spirit addressing particular issues with his truth.

And I think sometimes in these debates, we use the wrong text for the wrong question, and so you end up proof -texting, and you end up on rabbit trails that the

Scriptures never intended. But the more faithfully we can dive into God's Word and discover the contextual intent, as I think

John Knox put it, the Holy Spirit's mind in that particular place, it doesn't mean the disagreements are going to go away, but at least we're having a more honest and less personally insulting discussion as we dive into God's Word with a mutual commitment to trust the words of our

Savior, even if those words violate some things that we've perhaps held dear and shouldn't have.

By the way, I forgot to mention to many of the, or most of the listeners who asked questions already, you have all won a free copy of the book

God Breathed, Connecting Through Scriptures to God, Others, the Natural World, and Yourself.

You just have to remember to be patient to receive it, because it's not yet in print, but you will be on a list to receive it through cvbbs .com.

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who will ship those books out to you, and we want to thank our friends at Crown &

Covenant Publishing, who donated those books, who published this book. Their website, just to let you know, is crownandcovenant .com

crownandcovenant .com if you want to find out more about books that they have brought into print. I would ask that even though you may discover many more books published by Crown &

Covenant, that you actually purchase them through cvbbs .com, since they are a sponsor of this show.

You'll actually be helping both entities. You'll be helping both Crown & Covenant and cvbbs .com

at the same time, because, of course, Crown & Covenant still wins when you purchase their books anywhere, because cvbbs .com

has to order them from Crown & Covenant. We are going to our final break. It's going to be much more brief than the last one, and if you have questions that you have in mind to ask, then please send in those questions immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com We do have a question

I'll read to you that you can answer when we return. We have

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania who asks, when you speak about connecting to the natural world through the

Scriptures, are you speaking primarily about Romans 1? So you can answer that when we come back.

Please send us those questions immediately. We're running out of time. chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

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Spread the word about FirstLoveRadio .org. Welcome back.

Let's see here. Rut Etheridge, our listener in Perry County, Pennsylvania.

Arnie asked if your reference in your title to God breathed, connecting through Scripture to God, others, the natural world, specifically the natural world.

He was wondering if you were making a reference primarily to Romans 1 in that part of the title. Well, obliquely.

It's certainly mentioned in the book. The heart of the book is to minister, in particular to young adults who have had either no experience or a very bad experience with Scripture and the established

Church, and one of the things that I hope is helpful about the book is it's written in a conversational way so that any older Christians who want to engage this generation can kind of listen in.

And symptomatic of this particular generation, not just young adults, is a deep sense of loneliness.

You know, studies are showing how social media has revealed our loneliness and our related anxieties, and so the world can feel very, very impersonal.

And so you combine that increasing sense of distance and loneliness. Ours has been called the

Age of the Lonely Self, heralded by philosophers a long time ago. You combine that with some positive trends, such as an increasing desire to care well for creation.

You know, not environmentalism, but a desire to love the world God made. Sometimes Christians are known as those who say, you know, let the world burn,

Jesus is coming back soon anyway. And so one of the things that I want to show in the book is that the world is

God's world, and the Scriptures celebrate the natural world. There are laws in the

Old Testament civic code which prevent animal cruelty. The Psalms celebrate

God's natural world that He created. So connecting to God, connecting to others, connecting to the natural world against Scripture as the means through which we, in a day of detachment, find a deep and a very real connectedness through Jesus, and Jesus is the one through whom all things were created.

So that's kind of the heart of the book, and there's a website.

The Crown and Covenant folks were kind enough to set up, just ruttetheridge .com, that gets into that, has a promo video which really gets to that particular question that was asked.

You know, it's interesting. I've never heard anybody say this, but I thought of it. I don't want to, like, take credit for something profound or anything like that.

But when Nathan the prophet brought to light that David was the one whom

Nathan was speaking about when he gave this little story about a pet lamb that was murdered and cooked by an evil man to serve a wealthy guest, it's interesting that although David, it was certainly sinful and wicked of David to have a higher regard for an animal than Uriah the

Hittite whom he had murdered, at the same time though, Nathan the prophet knew that that story of the lamb would work upon the heart of David.

So it was really both the story that I think where Nathan revealed the horrible mistreatment of a pet animal would actually be used to startle

David into realizing he was even more wicked than that man in the story that murdered and cooked, and I use the word murdered because it was a pet, the animal.

But anyway, am I off base here? No, I think that's a great insight, because I think that's one of the compelling witnesses that Christianity can have to those who, as we know, you know, environmentalism is a big thing, but you know, the

Spirit of God walks with with the concern for the environment, but stop short where creation is valued more than image -bearers who are the crown of God's creation.

And so we see in culture some encouraging image -bearing trends, trends and concerns which reflect the fact that each human being does in fact bear the image of God, it's what it is to be human.

And where the Christian Church can have such a, I think, compelling witness is to say, you know, faith in Christ and the

Scriptures do not compete against those good concerns, they renew and they fulfill them, and they keep us away from the kind of idolatry and the kind of human centeredness and autonomy that ultimately led to the demise of the world and the deep pains that every one of us as fallen image -bearers are experiencing daily in that fallen world.

And we want to repeat your website, it's RuttEtheridge .com, RuttEtheridge .com. Thank you so much,

I look forward to having you back often as a guest, Rutt. I want to thank everybody who listened, and especially those who took the time to write in questions.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Have a very blessed, happy, and safe weekend and Lord's Day. We'll look forward to hearing from you and your questions next week on Iron Truppin's Iron Radio.