Is Alistair Begg right about LGBTQ+ weddings? | Ep. 2

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You couldn't use that logic to say, well I have some gay friends and so I'm going to go to a gay bar where there's stripping or whatever.

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But I'm not affirming of that, I'm just here to support you. You wouldn't support any kind of sinful, outwardly sinful behavior and say just because in my heart

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I'm not affirming of it. You are participating in works of darkness. Welcome to, it's a new show.

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It's called Tearing Down High Places. What are we tearing down? High places?

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High places. Look for the episode. Where the items are. We talked about that last time. There's a special episode that talks about tearing down high places.

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Today we are going to talk about Alistair Begg. What did

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Alistair Begg do? Why don't you show him? Cue the video. There you go. Cue the video.

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You and I know that we field questions all the time that go along the lines of my grandson is about to be married to a transgender person and I don't know what to do about this and I'm calling to ask you to tell me what to do, which is a huge responsibility.

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And in a conversation like that just a few days ago, and people may not like this answer, but I asked the grandmother, does your grandson understand your belief in Jesus?

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Yes. Does your grandson understand that your belief in Jesus makes it such that you can't countenance in any affirming way the choices that he has made in life?

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Yes. I said, well then okay, as long as he knows that, then I suggest that you do go to the ceremony and I suggest that you buy them a gift.

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Oh, she said, what? She was caught off guard. I said, well, here's the thing.

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You're not going to, your love for them may catch them off guard, but your absence will simply reinforce the fact that they said these people are, what

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I always thought, judgmental, critical, unprepared to countenance anything. And it is a fancy, it is a fine line, isn't it?

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It really is. And people need to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. But I think we're going to take that risk.

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We're going to have to take that risk a lot more if we want to build bridges into the hearts and lives of those who don't understand

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Jesus and don't understand that he is a king. And welcome back to Tearing Down High Places.

02:54

We just watched a video of Alistair Begg. And before we get started, though, I have the normal crew here.

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I'm Average Joe. This is Pastor Jeff. And this is Pastor Tim. Greetings.

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Pastor Tim is new, a newly ordained pastor, or newly installed, commissioned.

03:16

Charged. Yeah. So we're going to be talking about compromising the culture, one of the things we hit on a lot.

03:23

And there's potentially some compromise on that last video we watched. What happened? Yeah, so I guess a couple questions come to mind.

03:29

One, what's the big deal? And is he right? I mean, this is Alistair Begg. Doesn't it, like, break your heart that Alistair Begg?

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I've listened to him for ten years. Yeah. Love that guy. He's one of the funniest preachers on the face of the planet.

03:44

Honestly, I only liked him as his bro got a little more English in it. Yeah? Yeah.

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And now that he's become more Americanized, you don't like him as much? No, like a decade ago. I like him when he speaks, like, at a college campus or something and he tends to, like, cut loose more.

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Very funny guy. No, I like him. Yeah, he's good. You know, it breaks your heart to hear somebody who is so respected that we've trusted.

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So, did Alistair Begg, did it matter? Yeah, I think biblically, so Mark chapter 10,

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Jesus says what God has joined together, let not man separate. So God is in the marriage union.

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You have two complementary pieces corresponding to one another. And there is a spiritual thing that happens in marriage where the two become one flesh.

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So in a gay, quote unquote, marriage, what some call mirage, it's not marriage because a mirror image of oneself cannot marry.

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Just by definition, marriage is two corresponding, ezer kodekto in the Hebrew, two correspondingly different ones coming together as one.

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So what we're talking about, though, he didn't bless the marriage. He told a woman to go to a marriage that she clearly does not support, just to be clear.

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And she told her child, I don't support your, is it transgenderism?

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I don't support you in a non -heterosexual union.

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But Ephesians says have nothing to do with the works of darkness, but rather expose them.

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So what's happening here is in an effort to be accommodating, he is advising her to lovingly go.

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But this is not love. This is the opposite of love. This is affirming just by definition. The very act itself of performing this mirage is against God.

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So to be there in the presence of it is to affirm in the sense of what are you doing here?

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What is the whole point of this thing that's happening? The thing itself is blasphemy. So you can't just say, well, my heart's not in it, but I'm going to participate.

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You couldn't use that logic to say, well, I have some gay friends, and so I'm going to go to a gay bar where there's stripping or whatever.

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But I'm not affirming of that. I'm just here to support you. You wouldn't support any kind of outwardly sinful behavior and say, just because in my heart

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I'm not affirming of it, you are participating in works of darkness is the point. How big is it that a

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Christian definition of marriage or covenant is so significantly different than what these people are doing?

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Because some people could argue, well, they're not really doing a Christian marriage covenant. That's what we do. They're doing something completely different.

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It is certainly something completely different. See, marriage was invented by God.

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That's going back to Genesis 2. That is a creation ordinance. That's how fill the earth and subdue it.

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That's the mandate, and part of that is this two becoming one. Marriage is part of the broader cultural mandate.

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It's not specific to the church or the church age. It's something that we have to uphold in culture, not just say, oh, we're just over here as Christians doing our marriage thing, and so we can affirm that anything else is free to happen.

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Wow. Wow. Pastor Tim, what do you think about this? Oh, man. Well, this question was actually posed to me when

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I was at Cairn University, great school. The professor was Dr. Hurst, probably the best professor in the school, and he asked, he was teaching a

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Romans class, reading through Romans 1, and one of the questions he posed to the class was, if you got an invite to a gay marriage, would you go?

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And I'm thinking, that's an easy one. You know, I guess being trained by Jeff and growing up in a, not growing up, but being part of this church, the answer was no for me, but there was only,

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I think, somewhere between two to four of us in a class of like 28 people or more that said we would not go.

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Wow. And I was surprised, and then, you know, two of my friends on the basketball team were sitting right next to me, and, you know, the one kid, he raised his hand saying yes, and I'm like, what are you doing?

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What are you doing? And he's like, well, I already went to one before, and I'm like, and that was a theme where a lot of kids already went to these marriages, going to a

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Christian university, but there was a couple people that did stand strong, because I think it comes down to, you know, are you seeking the approval of man, or are you seeking the approval of God?

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And you can't be a servant of Christ if you're still seeking the approval of man. A hundred percent.

08:32

So that sounds like the conclusion you helped them come to, but how did they come up with their own epistemology, their own way of thinking about this?

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I think their own way of thinking of it was emotionally driven, and not thinking all the way through, and they were very offended at my professor telling them the truth, that you should not attend because you're affirming that marriage, that that's not a real marriage,

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I would say. Sure. So I think it was emotionally driven, and feelings were hurt.

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The professor actually came back next class and apologized, and I think they all thought they were going to get an apology on he was wrong, but he said,

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I was absolutely correct, and I told you the truth, but maybe I didn't do it in love. There you go.

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That's always the hard part. But it seemed like there were people that came around, and they really trusted him, and I think they trusted those of us that did believe.

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So I think a lot of people did change their mind, so I think it helped. That's good. You don't think everybody did?

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I don't think that everybody did, but I didn't go and interview every single person.

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But the people that I was close with and talked to, I think they knew that we were right.

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And it's not us, it's what God designed. It's what God designed, yeah. So Jeff, let me ask you, is the difference inside the ceremony, how important is it that those people are there to be witnesses of a covenant?

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Again, in our definition of marriage. What's our definition of marriage as Christians?

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A man and a woman together for life. I don't have a specific definition.

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So I might argue that marriage itself in our culture, even through the legal system, has been watered down and tainted.

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Why do we look at that as okay? We affirm that.

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I mean, literally, no -fault divorce has destroyed marriage, so that anything that you commit to at the altar can be negated by a judge.

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Wow, yeah. Which takes God out of it. If God is saying in Mark 10, what

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God has joined together, let man not separate, that implies that God is in the union.

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This covenant is not just like a contract. We're making this promise, and if we mutually decide to end the contract, we're all good.

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But God is the one who has made the two one. It goes beyond a human agreement.

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There's a spiritual, supernatural thing that happens when two are married. And your other question was, what about the witnesses there?

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To be in the presence of this ceremony, it's not just, oh,

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I was there when something happened up there. The ceremony itself involves the witnesses, which is why even in common law in New Jersey, for example, you have to have two witnesses, one for the bride, one for the groom.

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They're participating, as is everybody sitting there, to be witnesses of what's happening in not just a contract, but this covenant of marriage that God is in.

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And even in federal contract law and state contract law, you don't really need a piece of paper.

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You need witnesses. That's what you need. Right, that's a good point. How do you think this happened, though?

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Why would Alistair Begg fall? Because I have some thoughts on this. Oh, yeah, got me.

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What do you think? Where was he when everything was going haywire and certain people stepped up, right?

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So you have John MacArthur step up to fight the lockdowns. Why was

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Alistair Begg always part of the gospel coalition perspective? I think this has been a long time coming.

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I think if you have been unwilling to say the hard things, then eventually you start saying the wrong things.

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That's my theory. Got to stand strong. Well, what's Daniel 11, 32b?

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Did you memorize it, Joe, from the sermon? It's a memory verse. The people who know their

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God will stand firm and take action. It's just the second part of that verse.

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Somebody like MacArthur has been in a truth war. This is a warrior. He knows that we're up against the forces of hell.

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When he sees infiltration in the church, he's willing to say hard things and step up and get into the battle.

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That was Daniel what? Daniel 11, 32b. I'm going to get it memorized.

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How can it not break your heart if you're going to attend the wedding and see that this is just so wrong?

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How could you sit there and clap and be happy for them? They're going completely against God's will.

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But isn't that the problem with people in your generation? Sorry, no slander there.

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Or people that have only grown up recently that they think that there's nothing wrong with homosexuality.

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It doesn't really hurt anybody. It's a victimless crime.

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Do you believe that? Do you think that? No matter how the generations go,

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God's word stays the same. Whether the entire generation believes the lie that that's okay, like you said, those who hold true will stay strong and continue to believe

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God's word that will not pass away. I have a couple of transgender people in my very close family, and I can attest the destruction is real.

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I mean, it seems like, because people only think about history solipsistically, they're waiting to see more destruction before they'll say, okay, we can't keep doing this.

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What do we need to see in order to... Look at the statistics of how many people who have followed the teachings of this new humanism, which has overtaken the country.

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What is the mental health of teenagers in the public school system that are being taught these things?

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The statistics are not good. I don't have any exact... This is kind of off the cuff here, but I don't have any exact stats on it.

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But I know like coming out of the COVID era and all that, mental health is not good.

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It's not... The statistics are not bearing out that this leads to any kind of flourishing.

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Well, I mean, mental health really is defined differently outside the church, inside the church.

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So we've got these statistics coming out of this so -called medical institution called psychology, which is not even what biblical counseling tries to achieve.

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We don't try to achieve the same thing. No, it's a different end. We don't get good statistics.

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It would be great if we got statistics about what's going on in the church. Maybe that's why I don't have any stats for you, because that's why.

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Six out of 10 statistics are completely made up. Including that one, right?

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That's the point. I think that is a good point, that it comes in your family.

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Oh, I have a cousin that's gay. I have an aunt that's gay. My sister's gay. And it comes a time where you're met with that decision.

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Are you going to stand strong on God's word and trust Him? Or are you going to give in to that pressure?

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I'm going to confess some compromise right here. So I have these two people in my life that are both transgender.

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One was a guy I played football with in high school. The other is my half -sister. My dad in a second marriage had a daughter.

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So on the first one, the guy I played football with, I went to a party.

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He was there. And I said, I am not going to use his pronouns.

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I'll call him whatever name he wants. He could be the eels above, blah, blah, blah. I don't care.

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That's fine. But I'm not going to say he's a her. And I'm not going to compromise myself.

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What if the name is itself obviously gendered? Sally, not Beelzebel, blah, blah, blah.

17:19

Well, his was. His was clearly gendered? I'm purposely not trying to name him. But would you use that name?

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I did. Oh, is that what you're confessing? No, that's not what I'm confessing at all. The blowback on that relationship was so bad that then my half -sister, who

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I hadn't seen in a decade for other reasons, when I was introduced to her, then

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I used the pronouns. And I also was encouraged that way from some bad theology

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I was listening to. So hopefully we're helping people in this area. Yeah, absolutely. And you feel like the loving thing to do.

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I don't want to blow up this relationship. So a little bit of compromise here might keep the opportunity.

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But you're not understanding that part of the worldview that they're imbibing is this feigned outrage.

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They're themselves deluded. So they're believing a lie and they're deceiving others. And part of how they deceive others is to feign this victimology.

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Like, oh, just flop around like a fish. Just like, you've wounded me so deeply and I'll never speak to this bigot again.

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And you really barely said anything. But if you never want to grant to someone who's doing this victimology thing, legitimacy.

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As soon as you start doing that, you're only hardening them in that. But if you don't give an inch to that, it's not that you don't love them, but you just don't countenance that.

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You don't reward bad behavior. I remember seeing Kyrie Irving. He's an interesting guy. He's got weird views.

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Do you know Kyrie Irving? I'm familiar with him. He's got a lot of weird views. But I watched him playing pick up hoops with his friends.

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And he's got this guy who can barely play basketball. And he's an NBA player. And so the guy didn't cut right and he starts yelling for the ball.

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And Kyrie says, I do not reward bad behavior. And I love that because he's basically saying, play right.

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I'm not going to reward you for being lazy and making a dumb play. And if you live your life with that kind of as a principle, one of the many principles you need to have, don't reward bad behavior.

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If you don't reward bad behavior, people will be mad at you. But in the end, you're actually helping them. They'll be a better basketball player if they're not rewarded because they cried and they yelled about not getting the ball.

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I remember an old boss I had that used to go around and used to come into our branch and direct.

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It was my boss's boss. He was a director and he would come in, a regional manager or something. He would come in and he would yell at people saying, who authorized you to give poor customer service?

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And he's talking about somebody who didn't shine their boots or something like that, the drivers and whatever. But I mean, he went crazy.

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But seriously, what authority, under what authority do you have to destroy the definition of marriage over millennia and pervert it?

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Yeah, it's humanism. So God has a law. He has a right to define the world that he made.

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What man is, what woman is, what marriage is. And to come in and say, no, we will redefine that is a complete usurpation of his authority.

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So it's complete rebellion against God. And that's, yeah, there's no right to that.

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It's an invented right and we can't countenance it. Can't reward that. So what are we going to do?

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How are we going to change this? How are we going to get people to care about this? Because people just want to be nice and they don't care that much about truth.

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Man, will the righteous rejoice in the truth? So I think

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God's word, the way he designed it, is when we preach God's word, it is like a sword and it is meant to divide people.

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So if people do not like what the word of God says, then

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I think that's just evidence of what's really in their heart. And I think it does, you know, the word of God is supposed to divide people.

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So I think compromising confuses people. And division in that sense, so I think a scripture where it says division is a sin, division in that sense is good though.

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Oh, very good, yeah. Yeah, eventually God is going to divide the sheep from the goat.

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Yeah, I heard one of the worst things that ever happened in the 4th century was everybody became a

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Christian. Right? Because now how are you going to know who to witness to? It was illegal not to be a

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Christian after Constantine. So, I mean, it's one of the reasons we have a free religious culture.

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Although I would say I would love it if everybody became a Christian. Oh yeah, that's what we want. A Christian culture, yeah. That'd be great.

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But we don't want fake Christians. No, we don't want fake Christians. We want people to say, hey, this is what I'm struggling with. And the truth is, there will always be sheep and there will be goats.

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And the sword will divide those things. But it's not for the point of division. The point is that this person who's been deluded, they know down deep that their life is a wreck.

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This Megan Rapinoe, right? And she's married to some WNBA player.

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The two of them both know they're pretending and they both know they're miserable. And you see the hand of God's judgment on her in so many clear, evident ways.

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She rages against God. But you love her by holding firm and taking action.

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Here's how you love her, because when she finally breaks, like Rosaria Butterfield, the

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Syracuse professor. She's great. Yeah. Syracuse professor, advocate of all the LGBT herself, lesbian.

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When the Lord saves her, it's when... Previously lesbian. Yeah. Yeah. Converted out. Yeah. We don't believe in gay

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Christians. Like something like that. Yeah. But no, it was when she finally came to an end of herself.

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So all of that love of the line that was drawn, she knew she was in rebellion. She was stifling that.

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But eventually that's mercy to her that she could then turn and be saved. Yeah. So she just had a book out.

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I mean, she's somebody we could probably try and get on the show. Invite her. Yeah, we should invite her. Because...

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Tear down some high places. Well, yeah. And I think she's the kind of person I think people want to see former lesbians and homosexuals and transgenders that are saying, yeah, this is a painful lifestyle.

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Yeah. It leaves you empty. There's things that... I mean, people want to know at that level besides the fact of all the things it does to the culture.

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Like we don't really even have enough people being... We're not reproducing ourselves in this country. It's a culture of death.

24:08

Yeah. Like abortion, euthanasia, and then sex that doesn't reproduce. And we don't know what kind of culture we're going to have because we just have people invading our borders that are changing the culture.

24:19

Right. Yep. So we're not guaranteed that's going to be a Christian culture. Right. What's happening to Japan with that?

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Oh my gosh. And China. Yeah. I'm afraid China... I mean, people... China has way too many men.

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They can't marry people. Wow. They don't have enough women. Interesting. How did that turn out?

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Oh, because under the abortion law they had a single... Oh, and they were favoring men. The one -child policy.

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Yeah, the one -child policy. They would abort a female. Wow. Every time.

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Until they got a male. What an aggressive situation that creates. A bunch of men without women.

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Oh my gosh. I would never find a wife. I mean, wouldn't that be the end if everyone was gay? That would.

25:01

That would be the end, right? That is the end all conclusion. I remember when it used to be like, well, it's always been 2%.

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Back to the times of Jesus and now. It's always been 2%. You guys just don't understand.

25:14

It's a genetic thing that happens. It's always been 2%. Right. And now Barna comes out with research that 40 % of 19 to 23 -year -olds are identifying as LGBTQ.

25:24

Yeah, yeah. So whatever happened to the old argument that, you know, born this way and you just can't help...

25:30

No, it's a cultural contagion. Yeah. There is this encouragement to make that turn in order to find some victim status.

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And all of a sudden you can be popular amongst people where you kind of felt different or estranged in whatever way.

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It preys on the weak. It does. It really does. Who we really should be protecting. Yes. That's well said.

25:54

It comes off as a loving thing. Like, oh, you're included in our group. Come on over. But it's kind of like, you know, the people doing drugs.

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Oh, you can come do that with us. But it eventually ruins your life. Yeah, like, what friend is this that invited me to come do drugs?

26:10

He just destroyed me with fentanyl. A rebuke from a friend is sweeter than a kiss from an enemy.

26:17

Amen. That's good. That is really well said. So, I think I wanted to answer some audience questions.

26:27

And please, please, please send us questions to OffTheCuff. Oh, we have to change that.

26:34

Yeah. So, the email OffTheCuff at quarterstoneisj .org

26:40

is going to be obsolete because our new name is tearing down high places. And this LGBTQ thing is a high place that really needs to be torn down desperately.

26:49

But we want to talk about, I want to answer one of the questions I got. So, I got a question, the one to ask you,

26:56

Jeff. You know, a person I know, his name's Jay. And Jay is,

27:02

Jay's actually got cancer himself. And he's trying to minister to other people that are sick. And he's ministering to somebody who's sick.

27:09

And they were saying, he was saying, isn't it wonderful that God helped you through this and got you through this.

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He's trying to point to God's goodness in this person's sickness. And they come back with, well, yeah, the medicine was great too.

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The question is, of course the medicine's great. The question is, how can he point that person to God's goodness through the medicine, through scientific discovery, things like that.

27:36

Yeah. Well, you just answered it there, that it's through. So, there are primary causes and secondary causes.

27:43

God is the author of everything. And he's ultimately, his providence is meticulous.

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It's over every molecule in the universe. But how does he then run his universe?

27:56

Well, he uses means. There are instruments that he uses. It could be medicine for the healing of a body.

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It could be a great parent for the raising of a great kid. That's instrumental cause. But you ultimately give

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God the glory for every good thing that comes. He's the father of lights. All good gifts come from the father of lights who does not change like shifting shadows.

28:18

So, theologically, you're not seeing a difference. Well, it's the medicine too. And maybe God might do a miracle over here.

28:24

No. A high view of God's providence is he's in everything. He's the one, he's behind it.

28:29

So, he's working through the medicine. And you answered that yourself in the question. Yeah, I'm sorry. No, that was a good thing.

28:35

It's an instrument that God uses. It's only because of the Christianization of the

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West that science advanced where it did. So, at a cultural level, to come to these discoveries.

28:49

How many of the discoveries in medicine have been made in the United States of America? Relative to the world.

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And Israel, who are still blessed by God in some ways, but also hardened against him.

29:03

I listened to a podcast once where I heard the top 10 most impactful discoveries in history were all

29:11

Christians. Oh, yeah. Which makes sense. And the number one was, do you want to guess what the number one invention, most impactful invention on human flourishing?

29:22

I don't even have a guess. Penicillin. Nope. I don't know. Sewage. Oh, sewage, yeah.

29:28

Cleanliness laws. Getting sewage out. And that's from a biblical, like it was the Jewish people that elevated cleanliness.

29:35

How important is being clean in the Old Testament? I think that might have been Thomas Crapper, if I'm not sure though.

29:42

So, anyway. So, what about the pushback you might get from a person who is into scientism?

29:51

Because that's one of those isms we talk about. That's a high place. Yeah, sure. Well, that's just a derivative of humanism.

29:57

Right. Which is taking God out of the equation and putting man at the center of the universe. And now scientism is when this person's imaginations or his thoughts or his scientific reasoning, his intellect, becomes absolute.

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And this person thinks that they have the highest view. You have to remember in science, it's always a process of discovery.

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You know, you're exploring God's universe. And the things that he has built in, you can use reason to uncover and that's

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God's design. But scientism puts science in the place of God. That's why it's an ism. It's like an ultimate now.

30:35

And so someone with this ultimate view of science becomes very arrogant in what they think they've discovered scientifically.

30:41

And very often are wrong. What do you mean by ultimate? An ultimate view of science?

30:47

Like versus, I just like science. Well, science is just like a method, right?

30:52

It's a way of objective reasoning rather than just subjective feelings. It's to do research.

30:59

It's to figure things out. But to make it ultimate is somebody who has eliminated the author of science.

31:06

So that becomes to them their God. So what you mean, I think what you mean is it's your ultimate truth.

31:13

It's your ultimate authority. Yeah, your ultimate authority. Ultimate authority. There's nothing outside of science.

31:19

So what if we show that science can't be done without God? Right. Well, I think there was a split in the early enlightenment period where you had some breaking away from God in science.

31:31

You have others like Newton who are holding that view that science comes from God. But some became atheists early on.

31:38

And then you have some more deistic thinkers. So this is even in the influence of America, you have some of that Thomas Paine common sense.

31:49

Like he, I think he's atheistic, isn't he? Thomas Paine, yeah. Yeah. I believe so. And so that's a scientism there where it becomes no room for God over science.

32:00

And it's no longer a humble discovery of God's world. It becomes really a high place.

32:08

It becomes an idol. It's a high place. Science becomes an idol. What Fauci advocates is idolatry.

32:14

Oh, yeah. Tell me more about that. How does he promote idolatry?

32:20

Because he said that he is science. He makes himself in Romans 1.

32:25

They worship and serve the man, men or birds or things, idols, made in the image of man, right?

32:34

Yeah. He thinks he's God. Yeah. He decrees things for us all little people to obey.

32:41

Have you ever seen Young Frankenstein? No. With Gene Wilder? No. I was just wondering what role Anthony Fauci might play.

32:47

It could be Igor, maybe. I don't know. Maybe so. All right. Nobody knows that reference because average

32:53

Joe is also Old Joe. All right. Guys, this was a great episode.

32:59

What did you think of your first time in the show? I was happy to be here.

33:05

Am I the first guest? Yeah, you are our first guest. I'm honored. I'm honored to be here.

33:10

I got a feeling you won't just be a first guest. a regular part of this. You'll be a lot more. You'll just be in here.

33:16

That might be the way we go. Thanks so much for sharing the show.

33:22

We're presuming you're going to share the show with somebody. Hopefully it was helpful to you. For now, please send your emails to offthecuff at cornerstoneSJ .org.

33:32

We do want questions. Hey, I even told somebody if they wanted to send a little video in. Take a selfie of yourself.

33:40

Who knows? We might put you on if you like that kind of thing. Bye for now. We'll see you next time.