How Denominations REALLY Feel About Each Other

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How do denominations really feel about each other? That's what we're going to talk about today on Conversations with a Calvinist, which begins right now.

00:09

Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.

00:28

My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist, and joining me again in studio is Richard Roden.

00:35

Hi.

00:35

How you doing? You look like you're about to say, holla, hey.

00:41

I'm doing fine.

00:42

I was going to say the deacon, and I didn't have anything.

00:46

Richard Roden is one of my best friends.

00:48

He's been my friend since high school, and I'm actually living in his house, so it's pretty awesome.

00:52

That's not true.

00:53

I'm living in the house that he used to own.

00:55

So you ain't living in my house currently.

00:57

Yes, I purchased his home, and he purchased a much nicer home, and so we are now both living on our own, like men.

01:06

I'm sorry.

01:08

We're here today to talk to you about the subject of denominations.

01:13

Recently I did a short video, and by the way, if you haven't been watching the YouTube channel, I really encourage you to go over there, look at our YouTube channel, like and subscribe, if you have not already.

01:23

I do a lot there that doesn't go out on the podcast, because I've been doing short videos where I answer theological questions.

01:29

I make little short theological videos, and I did one that was a joke.

01:35

It was a comedy video about an interdenominational meeting where I had a Baptist, a Presbyterian, a Pentecostal, and a nondenominational big Eva guy were all sitting around a table having a conversation.

01:46

So it's kind of funny.

01:47

Hopefully people are enjoying it.

01:48

It seems like people are.

01:50

So if you haven't seen those, go over to our YouTube page and check it out.

01:52

But that video made me think about what I wanted to talk with you today, and that is the subject of denominational relationships, because what we see, or what I have found as being a Reformed Baptist, and I think we are a confessional Baptist.

02:10

We hold to the 1646 London Baptist Confession.

02:14

So we would say we're a confessional Baptist.

02:16

Now your church is a Southern Baptist Church, SBC.

02:19

You guys hold to the BFM 2000? Yes.

02:22

Okay.

02:23

All right.

02:23

So you have a statement of faith.

02:25

All right.

02:25

So what we notice is that there are relationships between churches that are denominational-wise that are, depending on, there are some that are friendly, some that are more not-so-friendly, some that are a little antagonistic, sometimes there's a little sarcasm that's held between the two groups, and a graphic went out recently online, and I just found it absolutely hilarious.

02:52

I thought it was funny, and so I decided to sort of base this whole show today around this graphic.

02:57

Now I have to say, I don't know who made this.

03:00

And if you're out there, whoever you are, who made this graphic, if you would email me at Calvinistpodcasts.com, or Calvinistpodcasts at gmail.com, I will be happy to put your information in the link, in the description of the video.

03:15

And if you have a website or something, I'd be happy to link to it, because this, I thought this was funny.

03:20

I don't know if anybody was trying to be too overly serious, doesn't look like it's trying to be too overly serious.

03:25

And so this is what, and again, if you're listening to this podcast today, you're not going to be able to see the graphic.

03:30

So you may want to stop the podcast, jump over to YouTube, and watch the video.

03:34

If you're interested in seeing it, you should still be able to understand at least what we're saying.

03:40

All right, so here's the graphic that came up, and it says, Relationships or Relations Between Denominations.

03:49

And right away, I think there's some humor here, but there's also the reality that not all these are denominations, because the concept of denomination actually, I think, is more of a Protestant concept, and the idea that when we talk about the church, up until the Protestant Reformation, there were two main streams of Christianity, and certainly I know some may want to argue with me of church history, there were always groups to the side.

04:20

There were always like the Waldensians and the Polyseans and groups like that.

04:23

But the main streams were the Roman Catholic stream, which was the Western Church, and the Eastern Orthodox stream, and those divided in 1054, which was what was known as the Great Schism.

04:35

And because of that divide, that was the first major division, and you'll see both of those groups here.

04:40

I would say neither one of those really qualifies as a denomination, because denominationalism really is a byproduct of the Protestant Reformation, because out of the Protestant Reformation we have Lutheranism, Calvinism, Methodism, Wesleyanism, all these different groups that come out of that Anglican Church.

05:00

And again, the Anglican Church is its own division, because it divided out, it had its own sort of time of division and reformation from the Roman Catholic Church.

05:09

So all that being said, some of this is just funny, some of this I think is great, but I would say right away, I don't think Catholics or Eastern Orthodox really qualify as a denomination.

05:21

In fact, I would say that both of them have issues with how I believe the Gospels to be understood, particularly the Roman Catholics, who would deny justification by faith alone as a edict of the Church.

05:32

They have, through the Council of Trent, denied justification by faith alone.

05:36

So there's no way I would say they are a legitimate denomination.

05:39

Not to say that there aren't Catholics who are saved, or people in the Eastern Orthodox Church aren't saved.

05:43

I'm not saying that.

05:44

I'm saying that the Gospel that is being proclaimed by the leaders in those churches, or particularly in the Catholic Church, is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

05:53

It's not justification by his work alone.

05:56

So that was sort of a long introduction.

06:00

Hey, you've got to explain it.

06:02

And just as a note up front, sorry about that, I'm not real clear on all of these denominations.

06:13

The ones I'm mainly aware of are Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptist, and Presbyterian, and of course non-denominational.

06:21

But you get into some of those other ones, you may have to help me out.

06:26

But anyway.

06:27

Well, I think, again, I think some of these are hilarious.

06:30

I think some of these are right on the button.

06:33

Like, for instance, the one I'm going to point out first is where it says non-denominational is the same as Baptist.

06:38

Anytime you see a church that says non-denominational, you can almost guarantee they ain't baptizing babies.

06:47

Now, they may be a little bit more Pentecostal, because you'll see it says non-denominational is influenced by Pentecostal.

06:54

So a non-denominational church, a church that says, oh, we're non-denom, you know, in general has a Baptistic view of the sacraments, won't even call them sacraments in general, is the Baptistic view of the ordinances, and will have more of a Pentecostal view of worship.

07:12

Not always.

07:13

They may not be open to, like, charismatic gifts and things like that.

07:17

But what we see is we see – I just love that to start with.

07:22

When somebody says, well, our church is non-denominational, well, nah, not really.

07:26

You're non-denominational in the sense of you've cherry-picked a few things from all the other ones and call it your non-denominational – yeah, whatever.

07:34

Yeah, yeah.

07:35

And again, a lot of – You're influenced by something.

07:37

A lot of churches are SBC, but they hide that.

07:43

Like one of the biggest churches in the United States is an SBC church.

07:48

I mean, you know, it surprised people.

07:50

At the last Southern Baptist Convention, the one that was in California, it surprised people Rick Warren was in the SBC.

07:55

There was people who didn't know, because they thought he was like his own thing.

07:57

Like he was sort of like a little Protestant pope of his own little group.

08:00

And here he is on the floor of the SBC talking about us and we.

08:04

And everybody's like, who is – What do you mean, we? Yeah, yeah.

08:08

He got a frog in his pocket.

08:08

When did you become we? So yeah, so the idea of who's who, you know, I knew Rick Warren was in the SBC, because obviously I went to Southern Baptist Seminary.

08:20

But I didn't know he was still active.

08:22

I didn't know he was still going to the SBC and speaking.

08:26

And man, he got to speak forever.

08:28

I did the little video about the Bill Murray walking out in the King's outfit, and I said, this is Rick Warren at the SBC, because that's the way he was behaving.

08:37

He was like king of the world, you know, and everybody else was just his sidekick.

08:41

So yeah, non-denominational, is the same as Baptist a lot of time, but is influenced by the Pentecostals.

08:47

So we're going to start there and sort of build our way out.

08:49

Okay, so from there, you'll see an immediate line over to the Catholics from the Baptist saying false church.

08:56

Yes.

08:56

It's like the Baptist – and I know this growing up.

08:59

You were either Baptist or Catholic, and if you were Catholic, you weren't a Christian.

09:04

I remember a person saying in school, one girl said, I'm a Catholic.

09:09

And he goes, oh, I thought you were a Christian.

09:11

And she goes, Catholics aren't Christians.

09:13

And I'm like, are they? But he was just like, no, you're not.

09:18

She's like, but we believe in Jesus.

09:20

And he's like, nope.

09:25

So you've got the Baptists see the Catholics as a false church and then the Catholics think all Protestants are Baptists.

09:33

I tell you what, from Callahan, that's the truth.

09:36

You're either Catholic or you're Baptist.

09:37

You either go to R.

09:38

Leonard Constellation or you go to FBC Jacks or Gray Gable.

09:43

Somebody said, wait a minute, I go to the Pentecostal church.

09:45

We don't even know you.

09:49

We have our church.

09:51

There's no line between Catholic and Pentecostal in any way, shape, or form.

09:55

The Pentecostal is all by itself down here.

09:57

But you notice the Eastern Orthodox has a line, can somewhat sympathize, because they're both a little weird.

10:03

That's why that line is there.

10:04

From the Eastern Orthodox to the Pentecostal, they both do stuff that's just a little weird.

10:09

And so they can say, okay, it's like, it's like, it's like when two guys walk in, I got you.

10:13

Like, I understand.

10:14

I got your cut.

10:15

That's right.

10:16

I know.

10:16

We know the struggle.

10:17

You both got, you both have something weird.

10:22

And so the Eastern Orthodox, and I love this, the Oriental Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox likes the Oriental Orthodox, but the Oriental Orthodox does not want to be treated the same.

10:31

Like, well, no, no, we are different.

10:34

We are, we are far Eastern Orthodox.

10:37

What's that? What's that meme that I seen a long time ago where you got two people and then somebody said, are y'all friends? And one says, yes.

10:43

And one says, no.

10:43

That's the way Baptists, Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians.

10:49

Yes.

10:49

Are y'all friends? No.

10:50

That was the meme.

10:51

It was Reformed Baptists and a Presbyterian.

10:52

It was like, are you friends? Reformed Baptists? Like, yes.

10:54

And the Presbyterian like, no.

10:56

No.

10:57

We are not friends.

10:58

Okay.

10:59

So then we got, all right, so getting back, the Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox are okay with each other.

11:04

That wasn't, so that wasn't the case in 1054 when they split.

11:09

But apparently, apparently they've come to some agreement.

11:11

They have.

11:12

They have decided to, to come to an agreement.

11:14

All right.

11:15

So that takes care of sort of the bottom rung of this, of this graphic.

11:18

And today may be a shorter program.

11:20

This is a fun program we're doing.

11:22

Just so everybody knows, by this time, by the time this video comes out, it may be that my baby's been born.

11:27

I hope so.

11:28

We're, we're, we're actually doing a few videos to get, to get ahead and I appreciate Richard.

11:33

Richard's such a good friend.

11:34

Y'all, I wouldn't take a stop and just say, Richard's such a good friend.

11:37

He comes over to my house, he helps me out with stuff and he comes in here and helps out with these videos.

11:41

I want y'all to give Richard a hand.

11:43

If you're, if you clap while you're driving, don't.

11:46

But just know that in my heart, I appreciate, I appreciate the friend that I have in Richard Rodin.

11:52

And the reason I come and do this, cause it gives me a day off of work.

11:56

And he takes a day off to be with me and you.

11:59

There you go.

12:00

Because I love you.

12:02

I really do.

12:06

So anyhow, I saw a thing, a guy posted, it was funny.

12:08

It was said, it said, tell you, it said, make telling your friends that you love them normal.

12:14

He said, but make it weird.

12:17

So Richard, I love you.

12:19

I love you too.

12:20

Okay.

12:20

Don't touch me.

12:21

Don't touch me.

12:22

You said make it weird.

12:23

We're the only two guys here.

12:25

There's not a director of this podcast, by the way.

12:28

I'm hitting the button.

12:29

I'm literally toggling back and forth to see.

12:32

All right.

12:32

So let's go, let's go on.

12:34

All right.

12:34

So Wesleyan Methodist, for people who don't know, the Wesleyan Methodist church is actually an offshoot of the Anglican church.

12:43

The Anglican, Wesley was an Anglican and the break off of the holiness movement and the holy club and all those things, that was, that was, that was where that breach happened.

12:54

So it's interesting that they're so far apart on here.

12:57

There's no real connection there.

12:59

But Wesleyan Methodist, it says, they look at Baptists.

13:02

They say Baptists are too strict, which is kind of hilarious to me, but you know, it's true Baptist.

13:09

I mean, I'm a Baptist too.

13:11

And I mean, we, we, we kind of hold the line on some things, you know, and, and, uh, the, the Methodist church though has gone crazy.

13:19

What it's allowed.

13:21

I saw some, I saw a video one time with some kids in the Methodist church that were chastising the church because of, uh, they had a, they had an international Methodist meeting where the Africans, uh, the church from Africa, the Methodist church from Africa was the deciding vote to not allow, uh, ordination of homosexuals and, and, and, and the, and the American church were all for it.

13:50

Of course.

13:51

And so praise God for the, for the African church, not because it was international.

13:54

So now I do foresee if it hadn't already happened, I foresee a split in the Methodist church because of that issue.

14:02

But they were young kids.

14:04

I'm talking like, you know, not super, not like hope, but like Taylor and Brock, they were, they were teenagers.

14:09

Right.

14:10

And dude, they were chastising the old people and saying, y'all are so wrong and you're on the wrong side of history.

14:17

And one day you're going to go away and we'll be in charge of this church.

14:20

And they're on the chancel like somebody, somebody knew what they were going to say and let them up there, gave them the platform.

14:26

So yeah, we may be too strict, but y'all crazy, y'all let some craziness in the Wesleyan Methodist church.

14:34

We're, we're too strict cause we adhere to, you know, biblical procedures and stuff.

14:40

I got you.

14:43

Now here's, here's where it gets kind of funny moving over to the Presbyterian, the Presbyterian makes fun of the Methodist, but feels superior to the Baptist.

14:52

I think so.

14:53

Doesn't the, doesn't the Presbyterians make fun of everybody? And don't they feel superior to everybody? I think that line could just kind of go all the way around.

14:59

And I love my Presbyterian brothers, but I'm telling you what, between your, between your bow ties and your, and your beer bottles, you guys are just letting everybody know who the boss is.

15:09

And, and, and, and like I said, I love Presbyterians.

15:11

I love like great sound teachers like Dr.

15:14

RC Sproul and Joel Beakey and guys like that.

15:17

I get it.

15:17

I get it.

15:17

You guys are wonderful.

15:20

But there is a sense in which there is a major feeling of superiority.

15:23

If you've ever been on any of the online forums where people are talking, they definitely have an air.

15:28

Oh yeah.

15:29

There's a, I got a, he'll remain nameless to protect the guilty, but there's a, there's a fellow who's friends with my, he was friends with me on Facebook and he's also friends with my wife on Facebook.

15:38

And he's Presbyterian.

15:40

He goes up to the, I think the Presbyterian church up in Hilliard.

15:43

And there was a, there was a reform discussion page or something he commented on and that asked the question, what's something that you think that people say they're reformed, but it really isn't.

15:55

And his comment was Baptists.

15:59

And he's like that all the time.

16:01

If he can crack on Baptists, he's going to do it.

16:05

So anyway.

16:07

Yeah.

16:08

And that's the thing.

16:08

I mean, I've seen so many times people posting stuff, you know, Baptists are not reformed and they can't be reformed even though I would argue, and again, I know I'm going to get some flag for this.

16:17

I would argue Baptists are more reformed because they kept reforming.

16:20

They actually reformed in regard to the sacraments, not only in regard to their view of justification and the understanding of the church.

16:27

So yeah.

16:28

And we ain't baptizing babies.

16:31

No, we're not.

16:32

We're not.

16:34

So you got the Presbyterian, like I said, he feels superior to the Baptist.

16:38

He respects the Lutheran, but the Lutheran does not respect him.

16:42

And I know what this is about.

16:44

I can speak to this.

16:46

Lutherans, there's actually a video.

16:48

And if you've never been to Lutheran satire, Lutheran satire has some of the greatest videos.

16:53

I don't know the dude who does it.

16:54

I think he's a Lutheran pastor.

16:55

He's funny.

16:56

But one of the things, he, it's a video of Martin Luther nailing the nine to five theses up.

17:01

And he goes, oh, yeah.

17:02

So I've started my, he's got the German, I've started my, my reformation.

17:06

And then he turns around and there's a Zwingli.

17:08

He goes, I want to get in on the reformation too.

17:12

And he goes, but I am going to have a different view of the Lord's supper than you.

17:17

And he goes, no, no, no.

17:18

He goes, the Lord's supper is just a memorial.

17:19

He goes, no, it's not.

17:21

It's like, really? And so they start fighting.

17:23

And then Calvin comes in, he goes, and what about predestination? So it's like, you guys, this is my reformation.

17:33

So the Presbyterians, they respect the Lutherans.

17:35

Lutherans, not so much.

17:37

Not so much.

17:37

And I've got to say this.

17:38

There are good Lutherans.

17:39

There are good, solid, biblical Lutherans.

17:42

And then there are Lutherans that are, that are much closer to like the, what Methodists in regard to what they allow in regard to what they adopt and accept.

17:56

Not all Lutherans are the same in the same way.

17:58

Not all Baptists are the same.

17:59

Not all Presbyterians.

17:59

Obviously with Presbyterians, you've got the conservatives, you know, from the PCA and the OPC and things like that.

18:05

And then you've got the, the liberals and the PCUSA.

18:08

So all these groups sort of had subgroups within them.

18:10

But I do think that that's funny that the Presbyterian respects the Lutheran and the Lutheran does not respect the Presbyterian.

18:17

And the Baptist sees both as too Catholic.

18:20

And that is, there is so much truth in that one little line where it looks at both the Lutheran and the Presbyterian because it's like, dude, why are y'all wearing the robes? Can't you just, can't you just wear the Baptist outfit, which used to be a shirt and tie, but now is like you're dressed, working for either Target or Walmart, you got a nice looking polo and some khakis.

18:39

That's the new, or if you go Rick Warren style, it's the flowered shirt with the khakis.

18:46

Well, um, what is Cody? What is Cody wear? Yeah.

18:49

We're talking about, talking about his pastor.

18:51

Hi Cody.

18:51

If you're watching.

18:52

Well, we've, uh, he's, he's usually in, um, the khakis and like a polo shirt or something like that.

18:58

Uh, does wear the coat and, and, and the tie and stuff for like we do in the Lord's supper stuff like that.

19:04

Uh, because somewhere in, you know, third Thessalonians, you gotta be wearing a shirt and tie to do the Lord's supper.

19:09

Um, but, but he has, he has preached in blue jeans and a polo shirt.

19:14

Nice.

19:14

I mean, it's, when I was 15 years old, we, um, we had junior deacons.

19:21

That was the thing.

19:23

And a junior deacon was just basically a communion server, a person who came up, took the plate, walked around with it, took the cups and walked around with them.

19:32

And I remember my mom, my step-mom, she made me get a suit because you had, if you were going to serve communion, you had to wear a, my first suit was purchased for handing out communion.

19:46

So yeah, things have changed.

19:48

Well, it's, uh, we're not as strict with the, uh, it used to be Greg Ables, it used to be shirt, tie, coat, the whole nine deacons had to wear that in order to do, to serve communion.

19:57

But now it's, um, uh, you can either wear shirt, shirt and tie and no coat or coat and leave the tie out, but never both.

20:08

So whatever you're more comfortable with.

20:10

And, um, I know y'all ain't that way here.

20:13

I know you, you, you dress nice, but, uh, I know Mike Collier's preaching shorts.

20:19

Cause it doesn't matter.

20:20

Everybody wears, we have a, we have a, uh, there is no code of what they wears and everybody's different.

20:28

Like I said, I, I like to mix it up cause my wife loves it when I wear a tie and, and like my suspenders and dress nice.

20:34

Um, but I don't.

20:36

So we like have this balancing act where I will wear, you know, a tie every other week, but it's for her.

20:43

Is it, you know, it's not because I, it's not because any of the congregation cares.

20:47

It's not because I've got to have that to serve communion.

20:48

It's because my wife likes the way I look when I, you know, you like the way you look, I guarantee it.

20:54

She's like, she likes, she, she likes it.

20:57

And I want to, you know, I want to please her.

20:59

So I do that.

21:01

But yeah, no.

21:02

I mean, brother, Andy, two, two, three weeks ago he was preaching and he said, he said, I'm not even wearing socks.

21:11

I remember the context.

21:15

I don't even remember what he was talking about.

21:15

I just remember going, cause it was when I had my, I had a stint and from a surgery and I couldn't, I couldn't preach.

21:21

And I just remember, I think I was at home and I was watching the live show.

21:25

And he goes, and I'm not even wearing socks.

21:28

And I just, I was like, I have no idea what that was about.

21:32

So yeah, it's kind of, kind of loosey goosey.

21:34

We do it if we want.

21:36

But I'll, I'll confess as a Baptist, when I've seen the Presbyterians wearing the robes and all, I'm just like, I don't get it, but you know, whatever.

21:45

I know for Presbyterian church, it's like a high church kind of thing.

21:48

I, you know, so, and see, I would wear the robe.

21:51

I own one.

21:52

I actually have, I don't want to tell the whole story, but I actually purchased one because a lady who wanted me to do a funeral, wanted me to wear one.

21:59

And so I had to borrow one.

22:01

And after that, I said, well, I better have one just in case I need it.

22:05

So a lady in church actually, Ms.

22:06

Patsy Hoffman, one of my favorite people in the world, she's with the Lord now, but she, she offered to buy it for me.

22:11

She bought me my one robe that I have.

22:12

I have it tonight.

22:13

It's got nice cuffs and everything.

22:14

So when I wear it, I feel very Sproulian, feel very Luther-like.

22:18

But again, everybody's like, in fact, here's the truth, I went to a funeral one time wearing the robe.

22:24

They didn't, I didn't tell them I was going to, I just, honestly, I didn't want to wear a suit.

22:27

So I just wore the robe instead.

22:29

And the guy saw me, he goes, I thought you were a Baptist.

22:36

And I said, I am a Baptist, Baptists can wear robes.

22:40

And he goes, not in my church.

22:42

So, all right, so the, the, the Presbyterians and Lutherans, way too Catholic.

22:48

Lutherans like Anglicans, interestingly enough, but Anglicans make fun of Presbyterians.

22:52

Not quite sure I understand that one.

22:55

And the Anglicans are okay with the Catholics.

22:57

I don't, I don't quite know that that's, that's 100% accurate against some of this.

23:02

But I love the fact that the Lutherans have a crush on the Eastern Orthodox.

23:07

And again, because of that high church thing, right? Eastern Orthodox, they wear the vestments, they've got all the, you know, the hats.

23:13

Like that episode of Seinfeld, when, when George wanted to convert to Latvian Orthodox because he was in love with a woman who was in the church.

23:24

And he said, he says, son, can you tell us why you want to join the church? And he says, mainly it's the hats.

23:34

They put off that, that, that, that, that, that religious feel that you really want.

23:40

Or no, that, that, that, that holy feel that you want in a good religion.

23:43

When you, when you started talking about the hats, the first thought that came to my mind was Princess Bride.

23:48

Malwage.

23:48

Malwage.

23:49

Malwage is what brings us together today.

23:53

That's right.

23:53

Because he's wearing all the goofy garb and yadda, yadda, yadda.

23:57

Well we have, we have covered basically the whole thing.

24:00

And I do, getting back to kind of the point about denominations, what makes something a denomination? Well, it may, a denomination is, is a group that is proclaiming the gospel.

24:10

You'll notice what's not on here.

24:11

Mormonism isn't on here.

24:13

Jehovah Witness isn't on here.

24:14

And as I said, I don't think Catholic and Eastern Orthodox really should be on here even though, even though it works within the, it works within the framework of who likes who and who's making fun of who and who's okay with who.

24:26

But at the end of the day, when somebody says, well, Mormons are a denomination, no they're not.

24:32

Mormons have a very different belief in a very different God.

24:36

And that is something that people need to understand.

24:38

When you think about Mormons, Mormons have less in common with biblical Christianity than Muslims.

24:47

Because Muslims, they at least believe in that, that the God that they believe in, they believe is, is one God who is sovereign and those things.

24:57

Mormons believe that God was once a man.

25:00

And they believe that you can become a man.

25:02

I'm sorry, you can't become a man.

25:05

You can become a man.

25:05

You can become a God.

25:06

Richard can become a man.

25:07

It's the Adam God doctrine.

25:08

Yeah, he can, he can become a God by his adherence to Mormon teachings.

25:13

They believe in physical intercourse between Elohim and Mary.

25:19

They don't believe in the virgin conception.

25:21

They believe he came down and had intercourse with Mary.

25:24

And so there's all of these weird doctrines in Mormonism.

25:28

The one thing I can say about Roman Catholicism, you know, and I said, and, and my problems with Roman Catholicism are, are, are many varied and documented.

25:38

I have preached many, many times.

25:40

But at least things like the Trinity, they have a, a, a biblical view of that.

25:45

And so there are things that we can say, okay, they're, they're, they're, they, they have held to, to, to, to, to truthful things where the Mormons don't have any of that.

25:55

And the Jehovah Witnesses are, don't have any of that.

25:58

The Jehovah Witnesses would be closer to Muslims in the sense that they're Unitarian rather than Trinitarian.

26:02

But the idea that their denominations, they are not, those are cult groups, just like Christian science is a, is not Christian.

26:09

It's in fact, that's an oxymoron.

26:11

Christian science is neither Christian or scientific.

26:14

And I'm sorry, it's not an oxymoron.

26:15

It's a, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a, both of them are untrue.

26:19

They're neither Christian nor scientific.

26:21

So, so that's why this, and I did a short video a while back on the fact that Roman Catholics claim, well, since the, since the Protestant Reformation, there's been 40,000 denominations.

26:32

That's not true.

26:33

There are not 40,000 denominations.

26:35

That's wildly exaggerated.

26:37

And most, most denominations can be fit within a traditional framework.

26:43

And the traditional frameworks are kind of spelled out in this, in this simple comedic graphic.

26:49

We've got the Wesleyans, the Methodists, we've got the Anglicans, the Presbyterians, the Lutherans, the Baptists, the Pentecostals, the almost Baptists, the non-denominational.

26:58

Where's, okay, maybe I'm just asking a stupid question.

27:01

Where's the Episcopalians in this? Episcopalians are the American Anglicans.

27:08

The Episcopalian Church in America is that, is, is, is an offshoot of Anglicanism.

27:12

Okay.

27:13

So again, it doesn't have all of the, the subgroups, just like I said, under the Presbyterians, you would have the PCUSA, the PCA, the OPC, and then there are other churches like the Christian Reformed Church and things like that, that, that aren't on this list.

27:25

These are, these are broader specs.

27:27

So they, so under Anglicanism would be the Episcopalians have gotten wacky.

27:32

Yeah.

27:32

And honestly, what we see in the Episcopalian Church is a, a similar thing that we see in the Methodist Church.

27:40

Right.

27:40

Is a, is a absolute willingness to adopt everything unbiblical, everything that is, and you know, we, in, in our last video, we talked about John Shelby Spong.

27:51

John Shelby Spong didn't believe in Jesus's virgin birth.

27:55

He did not believe in his sinlessness.

27:58

He didn't believe, he didn't believe anything that was classic Orthodox or Christian.

28:01

He was a bishop in the Episcopal Church.

28:04

That's what he did.

28:05

He, I mean, he had, this man had so much authority.

28:11

He could speak into the lives of hundreds, thousands of people.

28:15

And do you know what the Jesus Seminar is? You've heard of that? I've heard of it.

28:19

I don't know exactly.

28:21

Well, the Jesus Seminar was a group of liberal scholars who would get together to try to, to try to discover the historic Jesus, which is always needed to, to eliminate the biblical Jesus and try to put someone else in his place.

28:35

And that's what they did.

28:36

And what they would do is they would, they would, it was very cult-like.

28:40

They had these, I think it was marbles, it was some type of thing that they would vote, like there would be a scripture verse and they would say whether or not Jesus really said it, whether he might've said it or whether he didn't say it.

28:51

So let's say I am the way, the truth, and the life.

28:53

They would put like a black marble if he did say it, they'd put a different color if he didn't say it or a different color if they think he might've said it.

29:01

And that's how they would determine what parts of scripture they would believe or not believe.

29:06

It was by consensus within this, within this group.

29:09

And it was men like Robert Price, who I've met, John Dominic Crossom, who I have heard teach, I have not met him, and John Shelby Spong, who I have met.

29:19

And these are guys, this was the elite of scholarship within those liberal movements.

29:29

And these guys were out, these guys were so far out of orthodoxy, but yet they had people, I remember, you know that this church used to be part of the Disciples of Christ.

29:38

And that's a long story.

29:39

If you don't know the story, I have a whole series on how our church became reformed.

29:44

If you have a question, send a, drop a comment and I'll send you the link.

29:47

But the, this church was part of the Disciples of Christ.

29:52

Disciples of Christ, very liberal.

29:54

When I first became the pastor, we had left the Disciples of Christ before I ever became the pastor, but I still got newsletters from the DOC.

30:02

And one of the newsletters was that a local church, a local DOC church, was hosting John Dominic Crossom.

30:10

I wanted to go because I wanted to just hear his crazy stuff and be able to challenge it.

30:17

But he, I didn't get to go, but I know this.

30:20

I know that he taught things like Jesus didn't raise from the dead.

30:25

He was buried in a shallow tomb and his bones were eaten by dogs.

30:28

That's one of the things that he's taught.

30:29

Oh yeah, no, just out of his mind.

30:31

He was taught, he taught that of course Jesus was not divine.

30:37

There was just so much, so much of the craziness and that's, that's what we see in some of these denominations.

30:44

So, so even, even legitimate denominations, if they're preaching that kind of stuff, they're not preaching the gospel.

30:50

And that's why, you know, if say so, well, the Baptists are too, too strict.

30:53

Well, when it comes to the gospel, we have to be strict.

30:55

We have to stand on the truth.

30:57

And even though we would have fun and Richard and I love to get together and laugh and we love to do videos like this, at the end of the day, when it comes to the gospel, when it comes to preaching the gospel, when it comes to the truth of the gospel, there can be no compromise.

31:09

We have to stand on the truth.

31:11

So we can have fun ribbing our Presbyterian brothers or ribbing our Lutheran brothers and understanding if we're all believing in the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is justification by grace alone, through faith alone and Christ alone.

31:22

If we're all believing in that, then we can be brothers in Christ and we can wear our robes if we want to, we can wear funny hats, wear our ivory crosses, you know, whatever.

31:30

And preaching shorts.

31:31

And preaching shorts.

31:33

And preaching shorts.

31:34

With glorious beards.

31:35

With glorious beards.

31:36

Absolutely.

31:37

Absolutely.

31:38

Well, I hope today was fun.

31:39

Did you have fun, Richard? Yes.

31:40

I've had a ball today.

31:41

Anything you want to add? No.

31:44

Nothing really comes to mind.

31:45

I mean, we didn't talk about the Pentecostals much, but they're kind of off to themselves in this whole thing.

31:50

You know, what's interesting about the history of Pentecostalism is if you look at a Pentecostal church's doctrines on things like baptism and stuff, it's fairly similar to Baptist.

31:58

Even though the Pentecostal church was birthed out of Methodism.

32:02

People don't realize that.

32:04

That movement arose out of the Holiness movement, which was the Methodist movement.

32:10

And that's what gave birth to the Pentecostal church.

32:13

But they have a doctrine of baptism, which is similar to Baptists.

32:17

They obviously have a different doctrine of eternal security, though, because they believe people can lose their salvation.

32:21

That goes back to their Methodist teachings, the idea that you can lose your salvation.

32:27

And then, of course, they have the doctrine of the charismatics.

32:29

And the thing about charismatics, and again, I make the show go too long now, but the charismatic movement, which gave birth to the Pentecostal movement, has spread to all churches.

32:40

There are charismatic Baptists.

32:41

There's charismatic Lutherans.

32:42

There's even charismatic Catholics.

32:44

In the 60s, there was a group of charismatic Catholics.

32:47

So charismania, which is what some people have called it, it has spread throughout, and it has influenced many areas of the church, whether for good or for bad.

32:56

That's the truth.

32:56

And I would obviously say, I think a lot of...

32:58

Yeah, there's a new term I hear all the time of Bab DeCostal.

33:00

Yeah, I was once told I couldn't come.

33:02

I had a job offer one time.

33:04

It was when I was a youth director.

33:09

A man called me.

33:10

He goes, yes, I would like to interview you to come to our church.

33:13

And I wasn't really looking to go anywhere, but he offered to buy me dinner at Famous Amos.

33:18

And I tell you what, if you want me to come sit and listen to you, you give me dinner at Famous Amos.

33:23

So I went to Famous Amos, and I sat down with a dude, had Jennifer with me.

33:26

And he says, well, our church is more Bab DeCostal.

33:29

And I started to challenge him on the issue of speaking in tongues and things like that.

33:32

And he goes, well, it sounds to me like you're a little too much Baptist and not enough Costal.

33:38

And I said, you're still buying lunch, right? Because this interview is over.

33:44

I knew I didn't have the job.

33:46

I knew I didn't have the job.

33:47

All right, guys.

33:47

Well, I hope today was fun for you.

33:49

I hope you enjoyed listening to us talk about these different denominations.

33:52

If you have a question that you would like for me to address on a future episode, maybe talk a little bit more in depth about some of these denominations.

33:58

Or maybe you have something totally different that you would like.

34:01

If you'd like to have Richard back on for us to powwow over a particular topic, please send it to me at calvinistpodcast at gmail.com.

34:08

Also don't forget to go to our YouTube page, like and subscribe, and look at the shorts videos which are only available on our YouTube page.

34:14

You can go to youtube.com slash conversations with a Calvinist.

34:18

Thank you for listening to Conversations with a Calvinist.

34:20

My name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist.

34:23

May God bless you.