October 14, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic here is James white.

Secret Service Visit Over a Letter to the President

Well, good afternoon. Welcome to the. You know, I was just thinking. We should have taken a picture. We should have taken a picture. I had a camera right there. We should have taken a picture because no one's really gonna believe What I'm good about saying anyways, we should have taken a picture and if we would have taken a picture I would have put on the blog and it would have been really cool.

And. And what am I talking about? Well, um. Yeah, remember that little letter that we we posted on the on the website from my daughter.

Hmm well.

Somebody and I would really like to find out who Somebody got a brilliant idea. Just a brilliant idea. Um, they they Printed a screenshot of Of the letter they didn't select the text and put into a Word document.

I they just they just printed out and not even color a Screenshot of Summers letter.

And.

They put it in an envelope and. They put on the front at least from what I've been told. P period. Bush, I Guess that's for president.

Just.

Wonder who would ever do something like that and Somehow. And this is evidently what people trying to figure out somehow. They they left it at the place where President Bush stayed last night here in Phoenix I forget where it was it was in.

It's not still a Scottsdale and Hmm so it was found there and So this morning Some buddy who are made nameless for his own protection is coming back from Starbucks and Notices some some people at my house and and mentions it to me so I Go walking back to my house and there are two gentlemen with black suits on and a lady with a tan or brown suit on and their Secret Service agents.

Hey, they whip out their badges and ask me if I'm me and I am me and So they go. Do you know anything about a letter left at such-and-such a place and I'm like no, and so they tell me the story and and I'm like well, you know, I I Posted it of course on.

On.

The web, so that means anybody who has a computer and internet access and a printer Would have access to this and so no, I I don't know anybody who works at wherever it was whatever the resort was they stayed at and we were somewhere and I were at prayer meeting last night and So I mentioned that I had sent it to the president Through Washington, you know the way you're supposed to and they said could you give us that information?

And so I brought him back over the office here and there Stand around my office looking at my books and I'm going boy. I wish I had put some of the stuff over in the corner why and I Printed out something for him and Right as I'm leaving someone in channel plays this sound the whip that wave sound and that sort of startled him and One of them was looking at the new soul script or a book.

Well, I'm getting the stuff out of the printer and they said could we um, could could we talk to a summer? And so I called back over and told my son wake your sister up because it's fall break. They have fall break now in school.

I don't remember having fall break but anyway, they have fall break now and so we go walking over to my house and Walk in the in the family room, basically and my son's there and I yell down the hallway summer Come here, please.

It's summer comes stumbling out barely awake and when she walks out I said welcome to the Secret Service and but she didn't believe me and so They asked if she knew anybody who worked there and well, no and you know, and so on so forth and and so After we got all done with all of this and they left and I've been sort of talking chatting with them nicely.

And it was odd, you know one of them was wearing Oakley's. So I had Oakley's on and I mentioned that to him and the other guy didn't have Oakley's on and so we bothered him and They looked a little bit bored actually because you know, this is a real high-priority case.

They've been assigned to and So they they left. Well, yeah, so what it was sort of odd I had a Taurus 38 sitting on the table when they walked in they didn't even give it a second look. It was like whatever.

Anyway, so they they left and and summer's staying there and she goes so what was that all about and I said summer. They were Secret Service agents. No way. I said, yeah. Yes way. They were federal agents just left and she's like, wow.

She really hadn't believed me. She's she was like not couldn't be I thought they were she thought they were hotel. And I'm just like yeah, right.

So.

Anyway, it was it was very very interesting. And so if you did that out there, please don't do that anymore. That's really not the way to do it. They trust me. We don't want the president reading that letter as part of a threat.

Notification.

You know, we we've taken care of it, thank you for your attempt, but that that's not that's that no. That's that's not how you do it. Ah good night anyway. So I I spent a few moments, well, it wasn't a few months by 20 minutes or more this morning Talking with some and you know, what really was sort of depressing we got all over with.

Was also and I realized they were kids. I mean compared to me They were really young and I felt really old because of that, you know when you get that point We start realize, you know for a long time.

Everybody was older than you, you know, anybody in in in a position of Authority and stuff like that. They're older than you and they're they're not anymore and and that's that's depressing. So anyway, so that was our Experience this morning with the federal agents at our at our doorstep.

Yeah.

Ah.

Goodness.

It was it was it was very odd 877 -753 -3341. I don't have the normal volume that I have in my headset today. I'm not sure why. Maybe I'm gonna disappear or something again. I don't know but it's a sort of sounds odd today and 877 -753 -3341 is phone number.

A couple folks have already called that number even before we get started today, but Before we take any phone calls I was Scanning around through various and sundry things on the on the internet like you're supposed to do when you're an apologist and I popped on to a Page that some LDS folks have up.

And I've mentioned this before and I'm going to mention it again now. I'm looking forward to the day when the Mormons finally produce a Even even make a meaningful attempt at producing an exegetical commentary on the New Testament.

You know, they've been doing everything they possibly can to Make themselves a niche in scholarship. The the problem is that.

Their.

Starting point in regards to the nature of God is just so far removed from biblical Christianity and from the worldview of the writers of Scripture that whenever you read their attempts to really engage the text theologically it just They just can't I mean there there is there is a complete disjunction Between the attempts of Mormons do so and what you'd see for example by Jehovah's Witnesses you know the Witnesses don't have the Book of Mormon document covers for a price and the Book of Abraham and stuff like that running around and So they can at least make a show of it and and try to engage the text.

But Mormons just can't do it. It just the result is just Extremely unconvincing and disjointed and and so there is an ask the apologist question That I was looking at and the question that is asked is what is the LDS view on grace works and salvation if LDS really?

Believe the salvation requires works. How can one explain verses in the Bible state salvation only comes by grace and not by works? How can one explain when I 1032 many claim that this is wrong as the grace of Christ is sufficient for us?

And we cannot do anything to merit salvation ourselves, etc. Well the question is at least relevant. It's at least place, you know Phrased so that it's representing. What a Mormon would generally encounter in Evangelical websites and things like that the answer is written by Michael Fordham and It is absolutely Just just amazing if you go to the fair LDS org website, and you just go to the bottom In fact let me back up the screen here if you go to the bottom just scroll down to August 31st under the what's new on the fair website.

You'll find the article that I'm referring to and If you'll take a look at it, you will see that it's not only almost purely Pelagian it doesn't even Attempt to synthesize some of the stuff that that Robinson and others have been doing within Mormonism and and some of the stuff that's appearing within that that realm of LDS belief.

But it is so disjointed and in fact it seems that that one place one section Involves doing a word search for the word only in an English translation as If somehow this is relevant to faith alone. There there's clearly no at no understanding on the part of the writer What faith alone means or what the foundation of sola fide is there's no? way that a Mormon can seemingly really even enter into an understanding of sovereign grace and things like that because they worship an anthropomorphic God or a theomorphic man is one Mormon.

I know likes to put it and The the just the the Throwing out you know James 217 or James 214 and not even Trying to show any kind of interaction with anything that's been written From a meaningful perspective on these subjects just leaves you sort of sort of breathless.

If you're used to dealing with meaningful apologetic material anyways. And it just is another example of just how far Mormonism is from biblical Christianity and and even as they definitely show tremendous Use of technology to get their message out and things like that Mormons tend to be geeks.

You know I mean word perfect it used to be written up there in Utah wasn't it things like that. Even despite that they have yet to deal with the reality that they they cannot produce a meaningful commentary on scripture.

That is is going to really get anywhere, and they're almost. I think they're almost afraid to do so because they know that. They they recognize that the sources that they're to have to draw from are so diverse and so self-contradictory.

The result is just it's not going to get them the kind of Scholarly kudos that they want to get and that's why they deal with stuff like the Dead Sea Scrolls and historical things like that. To try to get their foot in the door and mainstream things, but you've yet to see this exegetical commentary on Romans.

The only one I've seen is on Romans chapter 1 and it was simply laughable I mean it just it was really bad very very very bad. Just not even in the ballpark and That's just because the system you're dealing with so here's interesting take a look at that and So on so forth and then meet with Secret Service agents.

Still just one of those things if we had just taken a picture I mean I bet you I bet today would have done that I bet if we had been thinking Summer could have gotten a picture with those three Secret Service agents.

I bet they would have done that. As the main channel says says the president's online one yeah, right 877 -753 -3341 we could have a little discussion about the proper way of doing debates but hey, that's politics and what was I guess I will make comment about this the The debate last night, which I didn't see because I was a prayer meeting and I'm much better off for it.

But of course you can you hurt you can listen to stuff and read transcripts and things like that. And I did catch just a little bit of it on the way down and Then bits and pieces of it later, but some of the discussion concerning gay marriage listening to.

Not only and of course the the the cheap shots at the Cheney's and things like that. It is just an ugly ugly affair I for one. Despite the fact that I feel very strongly about this election and feel very very strongly that Basically as I see this election Voting for one of the two candidates means that the slide off of the cliff stays in slow motion and Voting for the other candidate means that we simply leap immediately as in on January 22nd into the abyss.

That's sort of how I see it. So Listening to all of this stuff, you know, I do feel very strong about but I I'm looking forward to it being over I am really really really looking forward to this being over.

I am so sick of the of.

The.

Communications wing of the Democratic Party known as the mainstream media and. Their inability to to report anything with without that twist and that turn and I just I'm sick of the whole thing and and.

Want to move on so that's what we're gonna do. We're gonna move on. Not discussed at eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Now that is the number that Steve called back in Zarepath, New Jersey.

Hi Steve. How are you? How you doing James doing? All right.

Got a question. I know and everybody else. I know I'm at a Christian school. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, it's all good. My teachers a lot of my teachers are saying justification is not any central to deal with the Catholics like the Judaizers.

It is not scriptural because the Judaizers were a group that well Steve.

Even if you don't want to give the name of the school, what is the background of? of these teachers. Because I know of lots of folks Who are saying that kind of thing today, but they come from a number of different backgrounds.

Yeah, well, I'm not Wesleyan. It's a Wesleyan College. Oh, there are official statements. But a lot of the teachers were affirming but they'll say it's not essential and we want to be open to other views.

Which I would say is today. Well, we just need to love everybody and to me. It's not acting in the highest degree of love at law school. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're in a you're in a tough spot there and.

You're you're in a spot that a lot of Christians find themselves in today an institution that very clearly is compromised given what you've said and Unfortunately, they are finding more and more encouragement in being compromised even amongst people who call themselves reformed today because there are many who are saying that not only is justification not definitional of the gospel itself, but that's what we've believed about justification is Incorrect and is is actually much more than we can believe in and there are those I'm thinking of one particularly pernicious Presbyterian scholar who believes that the application of The the book of Galatians to Roman Catholicism is to miss what the what the whole issue is all about in in brief answer to your to your question.

The fact the matter is that the the Judaizers a as a group Are still around in certain forms? There's some real problems with certain forms of Messianic Judaism and things like that. But leaving that aside the issue is in the Reformation Calvin and Luther and others saw in the book of Galatians an attitude regarding the relationship of faith and works.

That Paul is addressing he is that he is addressing those who would say faith in Christ is important. Faith in Christ Is something that we have engaged him, but it is not enough in and of itself because it has to be Exercised within this context and and they wanted to add to that faith the act of circumcision the entrance into the Old Covenant of Such a situation and Paul says no that's going to end up creating two different Christianities you're gonna have your Jewish Christianity and your Gentile Christianity, and that's not to be there's only one body Jews and Gentiles together.

And the one body that is the church and by adding that extra thing you are in essence saying that faith is not enough and Christ is not enough and You're you're going back to the to the walking down the road of worthiness and in the law and so the question is Does Rome's gospel?

Do the same thing that the Judaizers did and I would say to you it most certainly does and in fact it goes far beyond Anything the Judaizers ever dreamed of doing and as such because of that It does apply to the Roman Catholic situation because they have gone beyond what those people did there in in part that Paul's dealing with in the book of Galatians and so It does apply to that and the issue with your with your professors Would be if justification is not definitional of the gospel then what is the gospel?

How can you define the gospel in such a way that you can deal with such things as indulgences or purgatory or issues like that? Without addressing the issue of how a person is made right before God and Without hearing the specifics of how they would answer that I can't get too much more specific myself but you're definitely going to find yourself if you're in a in a in a context like that where They are willing to Basically dismiss justification as being definitional of the gospel.

That's definitely a compromised institution and you're gonna you're gonna experience a lot of Shall we say frustration if you want to keep trying to speak the truth within that context?

Yeah, I actually have a meeting me my body want to be loving we want to be one one teacher for that argument. I don't know even know how you answer that. It's don't know how you yeah.

Well if it takes apostolic Authority to read the apostolic writings. Then what why do we have scripture anyways, but you know Unfortunately a lot of folks Might a lot of folks take student responses in a difficult fashion.

And that that's a shame. But again without knowing, you know exactly what the situation is it's it's hard for me to comment on it but it really would be. It's going to be difficult for you within that context because I rarely see People with within that realm changing their viewpoints and and adopting a more conservative stance.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. All righty. Thanks so much. Okay. Thanks a lot. God bless. Thank you all righty, we've got a.

Call.

All the way from from Australia here. So I hope you don't mind if we jump down to that one because that's probably rather costly and talk with Paul. Hi Paul. Hello.

Paul or is this Peter? Yes, sir.

Yes, sir, you're on. Okay, it's Peter. Actually, uh, someone told me it was Paul so we'll go. Not a very good line. Yes, sir. I.

Think he would say charismatic leanings. Yeah charismatic. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Yes. Yes. Yes. I know it's referring you. Yes, I wrote the book, uh-huh.

Then I didn't find that that actually good for night anyway, no.

The the caller was referring to.

Another issue in light of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, and he was right, right? And. Uh-huh, right.

Yeah, the point the point of citing it was that whatever was going on in first Corinthians 14 Doesn't seem to to line up directly with what we see in in other passages where you have Timothy exhorting and teaching and and and things like that.

And so my point had been that whatever is going on there it results in the edification and encouragement of the Saints and not in the sense of Receiving new revelation or something along those lines.

Yeah, and I'd agree to completely there if you also refer. I find even there the tongues and everything in there. Yeah, in their own language. I think the children of Israel out of Egypt and things. Okay, you know the day of Pentecost.

Uh-huh, so probably like Christ. Yeah, I didn't see how many people challenge them about it and say well.

Look, that's what it really does say in the scriptures. Yeah. Well, I didn't see anybody in the television program I was watching. I get up and say excuse me, but That's not what it says and if they did they didn't make it on to the the videotapes so.

Yes, I think that is what would happen. So, well how did the world did. Did my book get to Australia that quickly. Good excellent. Well, we do have a few a few friends down there in Australia.

Well, we're trying to develop the reform Baptist Church in a small country town in. Just out from Sydney. And 100 cases up just out from Sydney started up from almost nobody.

Yeah, that is the Puritan style yes.

Yeah, and They've been growing steadily because everybody here's the same good show them. Okay, and you know. We'd much rather do that than start on your work and and your books available. That's wonderful.

We've we've had problems with well Peter. We'll have to we'll have to someday we get down there. We'll have to Have to stop by and preach for you.

Listen, like if you come over here I really would be.

Well.

Well, I know. In in March of the bike.

Indeed in March of what you do have a Roman Catholic apologist down there in Australia that I'd like to debate. So that would be. That would be interesting. But March of 2006 I'm supposed to be going to Singapore and So who knows maybe we can we can we can make it to her out of it.

I might.

It's.

Well talking about in channel right now in fact.

There you go, well my I go to a little tiny church.

Yeah, well, they're a couple a couple Sunday nights we might get to get down to 30 ourselves so. All righty, sir, thank you very much for calling and God bless you down there. Great talk to you. All right.

Thank you. God bless. Bye. Bye. It's good to hear from down under. And you know John Samson's wife is also is Australian. So I you know, it's a good thing. I just can't figure out the difference between British and Australian, you know, I Just lost everybody on both sides of the of the poem there.

Conference and Debate Registration Reminder

All right, let's let's are we gonna. Are we gonna take a break? Do you have an announcement? You know, you told me Pete Paul and it's Peter. You know, I mean just what are we supposed to do here? Anyways, huh?

I actually met Fred you meant Fred. Actually, we'll so multi multitasking is not something that that we excel at. You are one of the very few people that I know.

Do things the way you do them and multitasking and deal with things that way. But I do want to remind people one more time This will be the break and this is all we'll throw at you the conference the debate.

If you're planning on staying at the Sheraton You need to get tickets by 5 p .m. tomorrow afternoon Pacific Daylight Time. But after that one minute after 5 Pacific Daylight Time the Sheraton will get to charge you whatever price they want to and So I suggest you get those locked down and get your reservations in now also as of 1 a .m. Eastern Time.

Not 1 a .m. Midnight Eastern Time on the 16th day after tomorrow. The next phase of pricing for tickets. If you're just if you're living in the Southern, California area You're not planning on getting room at the Sheraton and you want to get tickets and you got a group coming or anything like that the next and final phase of pricing.

Well now the next or pre ticket purchases Are going to go up so the prices on the tickets are going to go up on the 16th as well. So if you're gonna get tickets, especially if you got groups get those tickets now.

Get your reservations at the Sheraton. Get yourself locked in for some decent pricing because they're about to go up and the highest prices will be at the door which will be the final phase of pricing, but That's that's it from here.

Alrighty, sir. As if anyone really follows the time thing. Because you know people even know when the when the program's on. So okay. We'll get them now. Get your tickets now. Get your tickets now. Don't wait.

That was a simple call today. Yeah, you know. And am I really all today. Don't delay. Am I really certain that Jamin is online or is this Fred? No, it's Jamin. It is Jamin. It's Jamin for sure. Okay. All right.

I'll trust you. I Don't know why but I love and guess what it's 435 now. And that's um, that's like five minutes after some people think we're supposed to start this program.

Faith, Regeneration, and John 5:25

Okay.

Let's take our next phone caller at 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and let's talk to Jamin. Hello Jamin. You mean Fred?

Yeah, okay, Fred. How you doing a good good accent, by the way, I know.

Well James, I was. Don't encourage it.

No, no worries mate. Go ahead. Uh, I was just sitting down treating myself to some milk and cookies. You know the way teenagers do. Yeah, and.

Well, you know once you turn 25, it's good go start going. That's when you can finally put on a little a little, you know. Muscle and a little something on your frame until then you can just eat anything and it just goes to just is just gone.

So.

Okay, I'll work on that but. Anyway, I was reading. You know, you know that book. By what is it? Olsen? Yes, yes indeed. I'm treading through them halfway through and. Yeah, that's what I said, but he quoted John 525.

I mean this is this is after he quoted, you know. All the big reformed names on this is having to do with of course is that faith proceeds regeneration? And He just kind of hurdles himself into the most difficult situation and then tries to x and exegete himself out of that.

As you would call it. Wet paper bag.

But.

He said notice the Christ did not say that the regenerate hear his voice, but that the dead shall hear his voice in John 525. Mm-hmm. Into Christ's call. I mean assuming he heard it He had to be alive, but yet that call actually brought him to life.

Did Lazarus even hear Jesus. And what did it deal with John 525? Well two things about John chapter 5.

There's there's two aspects in view there is both the Eschatological aspect in the resurrection and there is also then the application in the in the current time concerning the the power of the Son of God to raise someone to life and The point is it is the act of the Son of God that raises them to life.

Not that the Son of God makes that a possibility. Something that's available to them if they will in essence Allow him to do so through the action of faith. I mean, it's it's really a a Misapplication to even try to go there in the first place if what he's trying to say is well since it says here the dead will hear the the problem is It says we'll hear the voice the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Well, okay, doesn't that then teach particularity? If is will all the dead here and will all the dead then live. Where is the whole act of faith in here? Where is those who hear and Understand and reject.

I mean all of that is being read into it if he's trying to pull it into this this context. Which isn't the context you're supposed to be looking at. Anyways, the whole point is that the Son of God has life with it himself and that he gives it to those whom he wills.

And that it is his voice that results in their living not Anything that they do in of themselves or law-keeping or any of the rest that stuff. So to even try to really bring it in and say, ah, we we have here unregenerate men.

Well unregenerate men can't hear the very the very what's what's the term that Jesus continues to continuously uses? He who has ears let him hear. Oh, well, what is who hears? Those in John 6 heard but they didn't hear the whole thing is ignoring the the very double entendres that that that John loves to use in regards to seeing but not seeing hearing but not hearing the voice all these are terms John loves to use and If anything the argument would the passage would argue the opposite because it's clearly Hearing the voice results in living and who do we know is going to have eternal life according to Jesus.

Those are given to him by the Father. He raises him up at that last day. They have eternal life. I mean if you're gonna be consistent the only thing that is found in this passage is Hearing the voice the Son of God resulting in having eternal life.

Where is the free will of man here to where you can hear but choose not to believe and hence not live? It's not there. So It is it is Interesting that that book even though it's not published by a meaningful publisher in the sense of has wide distribution that it that I hear about it a lot mainly because I think what the reason that it it Gets the hearing that it does is because the fact that in our society people like to quote-unquote avoid the extremes and Says so as a result They they find a media theology to be something that's extremely.

You know. Well, no immediate theology is something that's attractive to them because it's not on the way. Yeah, right, right, you know We we have someone who comes in the channel Who is constantly looking?

For a means to hold two contradictory positions together in essence and you and you can't do it and so.

So, I mean, okay, I understand that but maybe this isn't a proper analogy but Lazarus in the tomb. Did he respond to God's call as in he heard the words and then no we're not we're not told and I don't think it's.

Relevant because it's not trying to give us an order there. The point is Jesus Christ called Lazarus forth and he has the authority Over death to do so and if he has the authority over physical death Then he has authority over spiritual death as well.

It's it would be utterly ridiculous to think that Jesus has the authority to banish Spiritual to banish physical death as he does Lazarus But does not have the authority to banish spiritual death. All the other questions We can come up with about hearing and the Ordo and things like that just are not addressed by John 11.

It would be a misapplication of the text to push it to that point. Because it's not it's that we aren't told we are told however. That Lazarus was dead and Jesus raised him from the dead by the sovereign Exercise of his power and the very idea that that that Jesus could have Tried to call Lazarus forth and failed because of man's free will is just absolutely ridiculous.

It is a It it has no no place in the text whatsoever.

Um.

Do you find any of the word studies in that book useful? I mean You know it better than I do, but it seems just like what Gordon does. Is he kind of? Asks all the big questions and then just buries the reader in this Greek.

I mean, you know, I'm not very inexperienced in that kind of stuff. But it seems like he that's what he's trying to do. You know it's like five pages of word study, and then like a paragraph of justice tradition like Dave Hunt style.

Yeah, if if if a word study does not immediately clarify the issue If it if it is not directly related to the topic being discussed Then it is it is probably there simply to provide a Person with a basis of saying hey look what I can do I've taken these classes, and if it doesn't immediately apply to what's being said and Show shed light upon the excuse of the text.

It's probably just simply filling space and Yeah, I I Don't know the author so as to discuss his Motivations, but I have seen numerous situations where someone will utilize that kind of Word study as a cover for not really dealing with the issue in a proper fashion.

Well actually I'm a Bible teacher of mine talked to Gordon Olson on the phone about something. And he is the kind that are in this inductive camp. You know. It's really inductive exegesis, and I'm just kind of befuddled about the priorities of I mean because that's emphasized about the entire book.

You know. It's like well you have all of these guys roll and pink and and all these guys saying this. But that's not inductive data, so we'll just kind of toss that out. Yeah, that's real. That's real nice.

It doesn't really end up actually addressing the issue and the the results are always results the same. You you have an Inconsistent system being presented as if it is the be-all and end-all of all things and a lot of misrepresentation and and It just doesn't actually accomplish anything.

Because there there is no way of creating this middle ground that is that is self-consistent. Call your system what you will and Say well you need to use this methodology to come to your conclusion. Everybody does that if you can't end up explaining consistently.