The Laborers' Podcast- Fear, Anxiety, Depression, Worry

Good evening. Welcome to the laborers podcast tonight. We're going to have a special conversation on Anxiety fear and depression. We hope you will stick with us and join us for that conversation. Good evening again.

Thank you for watching the laborers podcast. We really appreciate it. Thank you for your support. I'm so glad to have these guys with me tonight to talk about this this important topic because For some reason many of us want to Not talk about it.

We won't we don't want to confess that that we have our own issues that we have our own problems. But I think more people than not Deal with these types of situations and we we learn from history even.

Some of the some of the men and some of the women that we hold high in regard from our past have had these issues. One of them comes to mind and his name will probably come up again because he's used as an example in this area.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon whom they call the Prince of Preachers dealt with deep depression in his life and so It is not uncommon. It is it is not something to be shameful of and so it is a good conversation I have.

I'm glad I'm able to have it with these guys. So that we can learn from God's Word and and learn where we can find healing strength and Joy again when we when we pass through these difficult times. So guys, how are you doing?

Tyler? What's going on with you?

How are you doing? I'm doing all right and happy to be here.

Good good. Pastor John. What's up with you brother doing? Well, then well been been gone for a while and glad to get on here tonight.

And.

This is a very special topic to me too. I've dealt with these things in my life off and on through my whole life and so it's I think it's a very important topic to cover and to be very honest about and it should not be Taboo among the body of Christ.

We should be able to be authentic and and transparent about these things.

Brother John, how are you? If I see better I couldn't stand it.

I'm glad to hear it right here. Well without any further ado let's jump right in. And in the first the first place that I want to start and we've already discussed this a little bit with each other is a Conversation that I was having with someone and they kind of led me to want to have a deeper conversation about this topic.

And so I want to address some of their issues that they were discussing with me. I'm not going to mention any names and I've I've not mentioned names with with My fellow laborers here, so so nobody knows what I'm talking about but I did want some help from these guys to See what they had to say and hear their thoughts on on these issues.

Conviction, Condemnation, and Spiritual Warfare

So first of all first question how do I know the difference between God's conviction and Satan's attack and I. Anybody can. This can be organic a real good organization. Anybody can jump in. I.

Say first of all what is. If what you're feeling points you towards repentance in any capacity. We know our way that that and not that would not be from the devil that if you're feeling something that you are Juggling as to whether this is condemnation or conviction, but it see it points you towards the cross.

I can assure you it's conviction and you ought to let it have its perfect work.

Mm-hmm.

There is such a thing I think of being sorrowful sorrowful over our sin that there are times in Scripture where it does tell us to to weep to mourn to to be miserable. Because of how wretched we are even the Apostle Paul said wretched man that I am.

I think there's absolutely a place for feeling Pretty low down about ourselves and I think there's this is a valid question. What is where's that line? And there is absolutely a time and place for feeling low Because of our sins that there is conviction here.

But when we go low, we don't stay there. God takes us higher because we have grace we are forgiven people and that grace pulls us out of that pit that we We put ourselves there with our own sinful rebellion.

That's. That's not something we can get out of on our own which I think is different from what we will call Satan's attacks or temptations of trying to fix ourselves, but Conviction shows us that we can't fix ourselves.

And so we need Jesus.

You know, I think you hit on something very very important and. It was something I was reading concerning Spurgeon that from one of the links you guys sent earlier in this week.

And.

Correct me if I'm wrong if if I'm you know, hearing what you said. So we can have conviction from God and we can have a legitimate biblical sorrow for for that conviction for that sin, but then we can.

We can multiply that sorrow Ourselves far beyond what. Maybe. Maybe far far more than what maybe God, you know, maybe calling for. And it and it not necessarily be an attack of Satan right, and I and I I think maybe I saw that in a article about Spurgeon where Spurgeon took it maybe or spoke to that issue.

Is that maybe where you were going going there or.

I.

Think that definitely plays into it as well that we can easily conflate where we are and Kind of make things a whole lot worse than it was rather than just running to Jesus. We try to fix it ourselves and then it it just kind of snowballs, right?

That's kind of what you're getting at. Wasn't it?

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I.

Think one I'd like to make two comments one I think the book of Job helps us in this that you know in eschatology and we've had a lot of discussion around eschatology and about the binding of Satan and Satan is Is he able to deceive nations or not or able to deceive individuals or not?

And I think we all agree that there is still a spiritual warfare. You know, especially on the individual and on the local church and those kind of things. There's still a work of the enemy. I think though that we what what you're both hitting at is we can't attribute Everything to a demon under a rock.

I don't need help being evil I'm evil. Okay, but in the context of this of anxiety and depression I do think it's one of the primary tools that Satan uses. I think it's I think there is such a thing as a spirit of depression or a spirit of oppression.

Or those kind of things that come upon people and and it can come out of any nowhere. You know, you could you could be having the greatest day and then just all of a sudden there's there's a cloud That that moves in upon you.

And so how do you know the difference between? God's conviction or the work of God and and the spiritual warfare of the work of an enemy of a work of Satan or the work of Demons and the reality is the main difference comes in James 1 13.

No one should ever say that God tempted me to sin. No one should ever say that if if this cloud or this oppression is contrary To my identity in Christ, then it's not of God and that's that's very important.

So if it's leading me to sin if it's lead me to destruction if it's lead me to suicide. If it's lead me to wicked thoughts or to murderous thoughts or lead me to hopelessness. That's not of Christ because Christ said cast your cares upon me because I care for you, you know.

Come on to me. All you are weary for my burden is is light. So so so there's is a very clear distinguisher there of the direction of the emotion because a Conviction is always redemptive in nature. It's redemptive in nature.

It's drawing us into light. It's drawing. It's calling out our sins. So so if there is something that is leading you to sinful sinful works as James 1 13 says then it's clearly not of God that it is of the enemy.

It is of my carnality. It is of those kind of aspect of it and we should turn to Christ. The second thing that I'd say though the reason it is very hard to distinguish for all of us and especially for a lot of our lay people is is there really is an ignorance of the the The Word of God the truth of God that that that people can know and discern because Jesus said my Sheep will know my voice.

We will know when Jesus is speaking to us but really the only way we really get to know the voice of Jesus is his word and and then we should be able to rightly divide the voice of my own flesh or of an enemy or spiritual wickedness versus The voice of God or the convicting work of God and so and when I use that word ignorance, it's not a it's not a Condemnation.

It's it's it's just a reality that people in our day in time Do not spend time in the Word of God. And so so it is important to know the promises of God at least and for anybody that deals with this. You have to memorize those promises of God that you can even quote even when it's hard to believe.

Even when you don't see it, even when you walk through the valley in the shadow of death. Okay, then what then I'm gonna fear no evil and why. Because he's with me. I may not feel him. I may not sense him.

I may have a hard time hearing him. We find all kinds of characters in the Bible and especially the Psalms. God, where are you at? You know, they're calling out God just where are you but there is an absolute promise that God will never leave us nor forsake us.

So either that's true or God's a liar one or the other. And so then the valley of the shadow of death, even though I face that I don't have to fear. I don't have to have anxiety. I don't have to have depression.

I don't have to give in to the the wicked side of that. And that's the reason I pulled picked out to open that with the story of Job is because there really is still I believe a warfare that happens and especially over Christians lives.

I Am such a sovereigntist that I don't believe that there's actually a war over the souls of men. God has already won that war that is already finished. We're already seated in heavenly places in Ephesians 2.

But I do believe in the body of Christ. Satan wants to do. Everything that he can do the enemy wants to everything that he can do to steal the joy of believers to steal anything that he can to oppress and to depress and to Cause believers to be disgruntled in their walk with Christ.

He wants to everything he can to make us miserable and and weak and and defeated living in a defeated life. When we are given a victorious life, and so so there really is the story of Job this God who's on the throne and the enemy's coming and saying hey give me permission to go get him.

God says You can do anything you want to except killing but the fact is I already know. Already know Job won't turn and then he goes through terrible places and we find him Depressed you have to admit I mean depressed and broken sitting in the middle of desert.

With sores and gross things and just throwing dirt on his head and ashes. You know just like and then his friends instead of coming and lifting him up by the ashes. They're just like kicking him while he's down, you know.

So so it wasn't till he went back and he met with God that Job was lifted up out of it.

So.

So that's what I see. But but that's a warfare. There's a story of the whole story of Job is a spiritual warfare and so that's. That's what we can always see. God's work is always redemptive. Even that in enemies is always destructive.

God's work is never sinful. The enemy's always leading you to be sinful and. And the only way we can really discern that is to be Very in tune and knowledgeable with the Word of God. So it's a little bit longer.

Sorry. Oh, that's perfect.

Yeah, I appreciate that and I've got two questions based on some of the things that you said. So you were talking about the reality of a demonic Spirit of depression demonic spirit related to oppression.

And so do you think that? Within that demonic realm they can they can see when when someone is is being convicted of sin and. And then pounce pounce on that opportunity you think that's a reality.

Absolutely is ready because because they want to confuse conviction and condemnation. Remember Romans 8 8 1 there is no condemnation for them that are in Christ. They they see when I sin and. Then they want to do everything to make me wallow in my sin when I fall short.

They want to make me wallow in that and tell me of my worthlessness and so it's not like when we're. We're bold and strong and with the brothers and you know. It's it's in those dark places and when the Holy Spirit's dealing with us.

That really is a spiritual warfare and the only way to discern in that what I'm saying the only way to really discern. What's condemnation versus what's guilt when that when that whisper comes in? My wife's been leading women through a Bible study called lies that women believed and.

And men believe them too when that whisper comes in your ear, you're worthless. You know, just go ahead and give up just go ahead and end it. You can't do anything for the kingdom of God you you you you're the worst preacher ever.

You're the worst pastor ever. You're the worst friend ever. Then that's not of God. That's that's of that's of Flesh and my own insecurities and These whispers and these lies of a different voice. That's not the voice of my father because the voice of my father's telling me no son.

You're redeemed and you're bought and you're mine. And I will not let you go and I am delivering you from this now rise up Oh man of God and and follow me, you know, I mean that's so there is that.

That.

Difference between those two voices that we have here. So absolutely. And it happens simultaneously and that's a lot of times why it's very hard To discern but I think that's what happens in the pew a lot of times and we see people white knuckle and pews.

They're back there having conversations with the Holy Spirit and with whatever other spirits.

I'm glad you brought up discernment because that's kind of where I wanted to go with my next question.

If.

We're aware of this reality. We want a solution and I think I think part of that solution is what we're talking about tonight. What we're doing tonight is being aware of the playbook and That's why I ask you that question.

Is this a reality. Can this happen. And and you told us absolutely yes, it's gonna happen. So so now we're aware of it and and we that's part of the solution. To me what. When I when I was listening to your answer and I'm thinking about further solution.

Coming from Scripture. I'm thinking about renewing my mind. And I'm thinking about the armor of God. Because you brought the fact that this is warfare and and I think that's.

Maybe I would almost go as far to not say does it happen? I Would almost go as far to say is when there is genuine God sent conviction it almost always happens. I Mean where where there is God sent spirit sent conviction.

There is a warfare to disrupt. You know and so praise God that the conviction in the voice of God is so and that's what I prayed for myself. It may seem like a weird prayer But I pray all the time God make your voice so loud that it drowns out.

Everything else speaks so clearly That I'll not even be tempted to turn to the left or the right or to be paying attention to someone something else.

And so.

So I wouldn't say it sometimes happens.

I.

Don't want to over cartoon it where there's like a little demon on one side and an angel on the other side and that kind of stuff. But where the presence of God is the presence of an enemy is to. And and and praise God the enemy is not omnipresent.

Satan is not omnipresent as God is. But there are forces there that that where the presence of God is moving. Practically, I think every time there is there is some form of Evil that is at hand as well.

And we just have to be able to discern that and it's a battle of the heart in the mind. So.

Kind of what you said.

John what you said actually reminds me of something I read from Richard Baxter the other day on the subject of depression and he put that excessive sorrow that old Puritan way of describing depression occurs when we Consider God's Word and the promises therein to be true and applicable to everyone but ourselves.

Yeah. Almost almost in like a Genesis 3 did God really say. Sort of way that is this can't trust this.

That's good. That's right. Amen, so one of the things that I've said whenever we're dealing with the Matters of salvation and I really appreciate everybody's thought on this as to whether they they agree or disagree one way or another, you know a lot of times Whenever we and we invite sinners To come to the altar at war or if there's an altar there at all or to make a decision for Christ to follow Christ to surrender to him.

Oftentimes, I think They're given the sensation that this is the end of their journey. That they've that they've surrendered to Christ now. This is this is over with when in all actuality they've never really had to fight every day in their life spiritual warfare much like they would after salvation because Prior to becoming a Christian you're an enemy of God and he and he he loves you and Whenever you're whenever you're one of God's now your enemy hates you and and it's The warfare is totally different in the past before you come to before you come to salvation.

You're the enemy of Your soul is one who saves your soul, right? The one that your soul actually hates is the one that loves you so much that he's done everything necessary for salvation and. And I've worded it this way and it's it sounds derogatory and I don't mean for it to but it's almost like when you go to a Graduation and you hear a 17 year old tell you about how they finally overcome graduating high school and they're going to go into the world and take the world by the horn and fix all the things that their forefathers have messed up and and they act as if though they've really accomplished something when what they've finished is the easiest years of their life.

You know, they've they've they've never actually walked today in the in the Shoes that they're going to talk that they're talking about and people listen to them and act as if though there's some profound statements that get made most of the time and really it's ignorance most of the time but they just don't know any better and I have a feeling that even if we try not to we can give somebody a false sense of security or a false sense of Accomplishment by coming to the cross and giving them this idea that now your battle is over with and if you do that it's almost like Reminiscent of a prosperity gospel and whenever they find out that there's something different.

That they find out that you had depression still a real thing that that. Yeah, you may really not feel like doing this tomorrow and this may be the Monday if you give your life to the Lord Sunday Monday.

It may be the hardest day you've ever had in your entire life and if you've let been led to believe that now your troubles are over and you've been you've been sold a lie and. And like I said, I opened it up for disagreement and and because I trust you guys that you'll you know correct me where I'm wrong, but that's that's kind of the.

That's the way I warn people. It's this coming to Christ you count count this out. Make sure that this is. Make sure make sure that you've you've counted what's gonna cost to build the house. What's gonna cost to go to war make sure that this is something that you've thought through this hasn't been emotional response to to a powerful sermon or to you know, convincing music or whatever the case may be.

And I.

Surrendered to y 'all to to throw rocks.

Well, let me let me let me say this. Life is hard. Life is hard with Jesus. Life is that hard without Jesus. Choose your heart. In Christ, we can endure the hard things with hope. It may not always be something that is easy but at the end of the day there is hope in Christ and that hope carries us through All the hard stuff.

I've been reading Psalm 3 this week and in this Psalm 3 is something David wrote in during his time when he is on the run from his son that he is not exactly in a Comfortable situation. He's essentially a fugitive and In verse 5 he says I light I lie down and sleep and then wake up again because Adonai Sustains me.

He's not in a bed. He's not in this big royal bed here. He's he's probably sleeping on the cave floor. Mm-hmm, but God sustains him and so life was still hard, but God is good. He is receiving the fruit of that goodness in the midst of the deepest possible pain Aside from being the crucified Son.

So yes, I would agree. Absolutely with what you said John that this is where the rubber meets the road. It's gonna get hard. But the difference is now there's hope now there is a new creation and a coming restoration when Christ Brings all things under his feet.

Yeah, and I think you're talking John about a methodology of evangelism or a methodology of preaching the gospel. And I think we've all at some point in time been raised. Especially us old guys now Tyler.

I don't know about you, but it's especially us old guys we're raised in a generation of easy believism. Where you know where that's what's been said in order to trick people into. Trick people into saying a prayer or or or just come do this and life gets better and life gets good and and you know come do this and all your problems go away.

And and honestly, I Don't think I had many problems until I met Jesus. I would just be honest. I mean that's when. That's when it really hit the fan in my life that holy cow I am wicked and I loved my sin and now I've got a real problem because Now I've turned to Christ and now I have a fight on my hands.

My flesh is still craving sinful things and and and I've got a problem and before that I was just enjoying my problems. I had no problems. And so so I really think there is an honesty about there's a Rejoicing for the conquering of sin in our life.

There is a rejoicing in the finished work of Jesus and we cast our hope on him that it's not by our works. But by his grace, but immediately that person needs to be discipled. It needs to be have mature believers walk with them and say now this is the reality of what we're in and there is and this momentary affliction.

Man, you got my scripture right here.

Yeah, this momentary affliction cannot even compare To the weight of glory that is in front of us, you know. So so those are the things that we just have to be honest with people about but I think what you're talking about is a methodology of Authentic gospel preaching of the whole council of the Word of God and people believing and understanding.

The whole gospel and it's it is always rooted in the death the burial and the resurrection of Jesus. But what really is that? What are the implications of that in a person's life now and forever, you know?

And that's that is that's part of the gospel as well so so that's I Think you're on to something very true, you know, and and that's where we came up with. I Thought she's gonna say it earlier. I couldn't be any better, you know, whatever We will say slang words like I'm too blessed to be depressed.

You know and all these kind of little caveats because we don't want we don't want anybody to think that somehow I'm not having the same joy as the first day that I got saved. Well, if that was the case then why would why would we need to be reminded in Scripture remember the day of your salvation.

You know go back and remember why I am NOT as happy Every day as I was the day that I came to Christ, you know I'm not. I'm not and and and neither was anybody else in the whole entire Bible, you know, so.

So anyways, but I do think what you're hitting on is accurate and it's uh, it's it's more dealing with a methodology of the preaching of the gospel and leading people to an authentic relationship with Jesus rather than a False gospel and it's really a false gospel.

It's a false Like you said it really even a false conversion, you know in many cases that they really don't know what they're believing or trusting you so I.

Think something you said Jonathan was key and very very important in that process of healing. Because a lot of times when we're looking at spiritual things, they're they're internal and They're they're hard to they're hard to grasp.

They're hard to touch and we want something. We want something tangible something that we can see and something that you said I think will be really really good for the healing process. And that's when you said I Didn't in so many words just summarize what you said.

I Didn't really know that I had problems until I met Jesus. Which is evidence that you met Jesus.

Amen.

And and so when you when you have conviction and when you when you see that there's struggle and you're struggling with your sin. Then that that's a fruit. That's a sign that you you have met Jesus and he's dealing with your heart.

And so if we're if we're trying to find that line tonight and we're trying to decide, you know, who is Satan? What is conviction? I think that's one of that's a good place to start and definitely part of the healing process is that if if I'm having If I'm see even seeing it and realizing it that it's a problem then It's probably God working on me because it's going back to what you said brother John.

Repentance is going to lead conviction is going to lead to repentance and. So if that conviction we're being made aware of it. We're seeing it and it's and it's leading us in that direction. Then praise the Lord.

God is working on me. That's right. Man, yeah, I appreciate that and I was John when you were given that example. The gospel and how people see it today I was seeing a parallel with with the article from Rick Thomas that I sent you guys.

Kind of this part of that article He had some of the some of the same mindset and flow that some direction that you were going. As far as People believing we're kind of kind of skipping a step once we kind of sell them a bill of goods once.

We say that once you once you're saved. Everything is supposed to be better and there's a there's this Mindset that completely transformed on the inside, but yet that doesn't happen until you know, we're glorified eternally.

And.

We're kind of. We're literally okay. We're not. We're not gonna have any more problems. Everything's gonna be good. And that it's that gospel you guys were talking about. We're sold a bill of goods that God God is gonna make everything better and everything's gonna be good.

And we're gonna make all kinds of money in.

Yeah.

Well, what what what Pastor John and Tyler said go they may have said maybe what I was meaning better than I did and When somebody comes to the Lord We know their estate is their their in state is far Superior than their state that they were prior to making the decision for Christ.

But what are the one of the things is they don't understand how unless their disciple as Pastor John was saying You have to learn how to weigh out all these things. He quoted from 2nd Corinthians Unless we weigh out the trials and the troubles that we face We have the eternal weight of glory.

We don't really understand and it can cause you to be anxious. I see Paul over and over again Romans 8 18. 2nd Corinthians in Philippians 4. He's over and over again that these That these momentary lot afflictions are for I reckon that the sufferings of this world are not worthy to be compared to the glory that be Revealed in us.

These things are where Paul makes these arguments that I'm not discrediting what you're going through at all. In fact, I'm telling you that the only way The hard things that you're going to go through or even worth it Are because of the eternal weight of glory that is in Christ that this that if if you have hope in this world only You're of all men to be most miserable It's because in Christ This is going to be the hardest life in a lot of ways that you've ever gonna live.

Pastor John said he didn't even know he had a hard time. So he till he come to the Lord. That's because he wasn't fighting and When people have anxiety whenever I deal with anxiety what I always try to do is It never fails to work open scripture and Immediately find a portion of scripture in a New Testament like in Philippians where Paul breaks down What is awaiting those who believe and then I say, well, you know what I can get over this.

Because this is even if it lasted a hundred years. This is a very very short period of time In relation to the glory there.

I've heard it said once in a negative way Because they kind of condemned this Mindset, but they said you don't want to be too heavenly minded that you're no earthly good. But I was like If my mind is not set on things above then I'm never gonna be or any earthly good.

Exactly, right? I'm not sure exactly the direction they were going with it But but I'm like I've got to keep my eyes on Jesus or I won't be any earthly good. It's exactly right only only through him that I can accomplish anything.

So, let's go to this next question, which is a very tricky question at least for me I've never really heard it. Put in this in this way Why do I feel anxiety When I read scripture and and what would be the cure for that.

Reading Scripture Without Anxiety

So maybe John Maybe this person was given the advice, you know, just a broad Broad brushing advice you need to pray more. You need to seek the Lord and you need to read scripture and they say well, I'm reading scripture I'm reading scripture, but I the more I read the more anxiety I have.

So the first question I would ask this person if I was meeting with him is what scriptures are you reading? I think that's very important because there are Portions of the Bible that I would not recommend.

For a person dealing with depression and anxiety to read because it it it could create deeper sorrow deeper. The enemy will use the Word of God just like he did with Satan.

To.

I mean just like you did with Jesus. I'm sorry, the enemy will use the Word of God just like you did with Jesus to tempt to to manipulate to create anxiousness and anxiety.

But.

Even if you're reading the right scriptures, I Think one of the main questions that we have to answer and one of the main reasons that people get even more anxious reading scripture is because It really is a battle of faith with one Primary question there's multiple questions that may lead to this but it's my opinion.

It comes all the way back to the primary question is is is God really good. Is God really good? Okay, and and so even can I believe him. Is God good? God says all these things, but can I believe him. And and the thing that we're battling against in that question is We're looking at our circumstances, you know, whatever that circumstance is.

There's there's a friend of mine. That's been going through a severe health issue and This person knows very well Scripture very very knowledgeable scripture would not fall in the category at all of what I said earlier of having an ignorance of the voice of God.

She's Very very knowledgeable of this. But she said it's getting harder to believe it because her sir because her circumstance is so Overwhelming to to them to even to their whole family. It's in so so I'm thankful even for that acknowledgment in the reaching out in the authenticity and the transparency.

So when even when they're reading scripture, it's it's asking the question is God really good. Can I really believe this? And if you're struggling with that inside then obviously God's. You're reading stories of all these victorious people and where is my victory?

You're reading stories of of all these people that get deliverance and raised from the dead and healed and and Miracles and miraculous things and where's mine at? Why why you know? And and so that's why there are many portions of scripture that we should read.

You'd love to read the Hall of Faith in Hebrews. But we don't read the last of the chapter of those that lived in caves and died, you know suffered and died. We we don't point people to the book of Lamentation.