The Laborers' Podcast- Fear, Anxiety, Depression, Worry

Good evening. Welcome to the laborers podcast tonight. We're going to have a special conversation on Anxiety fear and depression.

We hope you will stick with us and join us for that conversation Good evening again.

Thank you for watching the laborers podcast. We really appreciate it. Thank you for your support I'm so glad to have these guys with me tonight to talk about this this important topic because For some reason many of us want to Not talk about it.

We won't we don't want to confess that that we have our own issues that we have our own problems

But I think more people than not Deal with these types of situations and we we learn from history even

Some of the some of the men and some of the women that we hold high in regard from our past have had these issues

One of them comes to mind and his name will probably come up again because he's used as an example in this area

Charles Haddon Spurgeon whom they call the Prince of Preachers dealt with deep depression in his life

And so it is not uncommon It is it is not something to be shameful of and so it is a good conversation

I have I'm glad I'm able to have it with these guys So that we can learn from God's Word and and learn where we can find healing strength and Joy again when we when we pass through these difficult times.

So guys, how are you doing Tyler? What's going on with you? How are you doing? I'm doing all right and happy to be here

Good good. Pastor John. What's up with you brother doing? well, then well been been gone for a while and glad to get on here tonight and This is a very special topic to me too.

I've dealt with these things in my life often on through my whole life and so it's

I think it's a very important topic to cover and to be very honest about and it should not be

Taboo among the body of Christ. We should be able to be authentic and and transparent about these things

Brother John, how are you? If I see better I couldn't stand it I'm glad to hear it right here well without any further ado let's jump right in and and the first the first place that I want to start and we've already discussed this a little bit with each other is a

Conversation that I was having with someone and they kind of led me to want to have a deeper conversation about this topic

And so I want to address some of their issues that they were discussing with me I'm not going to mention any names and I've I've not mentioned names with with my fellow laborers here

So so nobody knows what I'm talking about but I did want some help from these guys to See what they had to say and hear their thoughts on on these issues.

So first of all first question how do I know the difference between God's conviction and Satan's attack and I anybody can this can be organic a real good organic anybody can jump in I'd say first of all

What is if what you're feeling points you towards repentance in any capacity?

we know our way that that and not that would not be from the devil that if you're feeling something that you are

Juggling as to whether this is condemnation or conviction, but it see it points you towards the cross

I can assure you it's conviction and you ought to let it have its perfect work There is such a thing

I think of Being sorrowful Sorrowful over our sin that there are times in scripture where it does tell us to to weep to mourn to to be miserable

Because of how wretched we are even the Apostle Paul said wretched man that I am

I think there's absolutely a place for feeling Pretty low down about ourselves and I think there's this is a valid question

What is where's that line and there is absolutely a time and place for? Feeling low

Because of our sins that there is conviction here But when we go low, we don't stay there.

God takes us higher because We have grace. We are forgiven people and that grace pulls us out of that pit that we

We put ourselves there with our own sinful rebellion. That's That's not something we can get out of on our own

Which I think is different from what we will call Satan's attacks or temptations of trying to fix ourselves

But conviction shows us that we can't fix ourselves. And so we need Jesus. I think you hit on something very very important and It was something

I was reading concerning Spurgeon that from one of the links you guys sent earlier in this week And Correct me if I'm wrong if if I'm you know hearing what you said, so we can have conviction from God and we can have a legitimate biblical sorrow for for that conviction for that sin, but then we can

We can multiply that sorrow Ourselves far beyond what

Maybe Far far more than what maybe God, you know, maybe calling for And it and it not necessarily be an attack of Satan right, and I and I I think maybe

I saw that in a article about Spurgeon where Spurgeon took it maybe or spoke to that issue.

Is that maybe where you were going going there or I think that definitely plays into it as well that we can easily

Conflate where we are and Kind of make things a whole lot worse than it was rather than just running to Jesus We try to fix it ourselves and then it it just kind of snowballs, right?

It's kind of what you're getting at wasn't it? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think one

I'd like to make two comments one I Think the book of Job helps us in this that You know in eschatology and we've had a lot of discussion around eschatology and about the binding of Satan Satan is is he able to deceive nations or not or able to deceive individuals or not?

And I think we all agree that there is still a spiritual warfare You know, especially on the individual and on the local church and those kind of things.

There's still a work of the enemy I think though that we what what you're both hitting at is we can't attribute

Everything to a demon under a rock. I don't need help being evil I'm evil.

Okay, but in the context of this of anxiety and depression I do think it's one of the primary tools that Satan uses

I think it's I think there is such a thing as a spirit of depression or a spirit of Oppression or those kind of things that come upon people and and it can come out of any nowhere

You know, you could you could be having the greatest day and then just all of a sudden there's there's a cloud

That that moves in upon you. And so how do you know the difference between? God's conviction or the work of God and and the spiritual warfare of the work of an enemy of a work of Satan or the work of Demons and the reality is the main difference comes in James 1 13

No one should ever say that God tempted me to sin No one should ever say that if if this cloud or this oppression is contrary

To my identity in Christ, then it's not of God and that's that's very important So if it's leading me to sin if it's lead me to destruction if it's lead me to suicide

If it's lead me to wicked thoughts or to murderous thoughts or lead me to hopelessness

That's not of Christ because Christ said cast your cares upon me because I care for you, you know

Come on to me. All you are weary for my burden is is light. So so so there's is a very clear distinguisher there of the direction of the emotion because a

Conviction is always redemptive in nature It's redemptive in nature. It's drawing us into light.

It's it's calling out our sins So if there is something that is leading you to sinful sinful works as James 1 13 says then it's clearly not of God It is of the enemy.

It is of my carnality It is of those kind of aspect of it and we should turn to Christ The second thing that I'd say though the reason it is very hard to distinguish for all of us and especially for a lot of our lay people is is there really is an ignorance of the the

The Word of God the truth of God that that that people can know and discern because Jesus said my

Sheep will know my voice. We will know when Jesus is speaking to us but really the only way we really get to know the voice of Jesus is his word and and then we should be able to rightly divide the voice of my own flesh or of an enemy or spiritual wickedness versus The voice of God or the convicting work of God and so and when

I use that word ignorance, it's not a it's not a Condemnation. It's it's it's just a reality that people in our day in time

Do not spend time in the Word of God And so so it is important to know the promises of God at least and for anybody that deals with this

You have to memorize those promises of God that you can even quote even when it's hard to believe

Even when you don't see it, even when you walk through the valley in the shadow of death Okay, then what then

I'm gonna fear no evil and why because he's with me. I may not feel him I may not sense him.

I may have a hard time hearing him We find all kinds of characters in the Bible and especially the Psalms God, where are you at?

You know, they're calling out God just where yet but there is an absolute promise that God will never leave us nor forsake us

So either that's true or God's a liar one of the other And so then the valley of the shadow of death even though I face that I don't have to fear

I don't have to have anxiety. I don't have to have depression I don't have to give in to the the wicked side of that and that's the reason

I pulled Picked out to open that with the story of Job is because there really is

Still I believe a warfare that happens and especially over Christians lives

I Am such a sovereigntist that I don't believe that there's actually a war over the souls of men

God has already won that war that is already finished. We're already seated in heavenly places in Ephesians 2

But I do believe in the body of Christ Satan wants to do Everything that he can do the enemy wants to everything that he can do to steal the joy of believers to steal anything that he can to oppress and to depress and to Cause believers to be disgruntled in their walk with Christ He wants to everything he can to make us miserable and and weak and and defeated living in a defeated life

When we are given a victorious life And so so there really is the story of Job this

God who's on the throne and the enemy's coming and saying hey give me permission to go get him God says

You can do anything you want to except killing but the fact is I already know Already know

Job won't turn and then he goes through terrible places and we find him Depressed you have to admit

I mean depressed and broken sitting in the middle of desert With sores and gross things and just throwing dirt on his head and ashes

You know just like and then his friends instead of coming and lifting him up by the ashes They're just like kicking him while he's down, you know

So so it wasn't till he went back and he met with God that Job was lifted up out of it so So that's what

I see but but that's a warfare there's a story of the whole story of Job is a spiritual warfare and so that's

That's what we can always see God's work is always redemptive Even that in enemies is always destructive.

God's work is never sinful. The enemy's always leading you to be sinful and and the only way we can really discern that is to be

Very in tune and knowledgeable with the Word of God. So it's a little bit longer. Sorry. Oh, that's perfect Yeah, I appreciate that and I've got two questions based on some of the things that you said so you were talking about the reality of a demonic

Spirit of depression demonic spirit related to oppression. And so do you think that?

within that demonic realm they can they can see when when someone is is being convicted of sin and And then pounce pounce on that opportunity you think that's a reality

Absolutely, it's a reality because because they want to confuse conviction and condemnation

Remember Romans 8 1 there is no condemnation for them that are in Christ. They they see when

I sin and Then they want to do everything to make me wallow in my sin when

I fall short They want to make me wallow in that and tell me of my worthlessness and so it's not like when we're

We're bold and strong and with the brothers and you know It's it's in those dark places and when the

Holy Spirit's dealing with us That really is a spiritual warfare and the only way to discern in that what

I'm saying The only way to really discern what's condemnation versus what's guilt when that when that whisper comes in My wife's been leading women through a

Bible study called lies that women believe And and men believe them too when that whisper comes in your ear, you're worthless

You know, just go ahead and give up just go ahead and end it You can't do anything for the kingdom of God you you you you're the worst preacher ever.

You're the worst pastor ever You're the worst friend ever Then that's not of God. That's that's of that's of Flesh and my own insecurities and These whispers and these lies of a different voice.

That's not the voice of my father Because the voice of my father's telling me no son You're redeemed and you're bought and you're mine and I will not let you go and I am

Delivering you from this now rise up. Oh man of God and and follow me, you know

I mean that's so there is that that Difference between those two voices that we have here.

So absolutely and it happens simultaneously and that's a lot of times why it's very hard To discern but I think that's what happens in the pew a lot of times and we see people white knuckle infused

They're back there having conversations with the Holy Spirit and with whatever other spirits

I'm glad you brought up discernment because that's kind of where I wanted to go with my next question If We're aware of this reality

We want a solution and I think I think part of that solution is what we're talking about tonight.

What we're doing tonight is being aware of the playbook and That's why

I ask you that question. Is this a reality can this happen and and you told us absolutely yes, it's gonna happen

So so now we're aware of it and and we that's part of the solution To me what when

I when I was listening to your answer and I'm thinking about further solution coming from Scripture, I'm thinking about renewing my mind

And I'm thinking about the armor of God Because you brought the fact that this is warfare and and I think that's

Maybe I would almost go as far to not say does it happen? I Would almost go as far to say is when there is genuine

God sent conviction it almost always happens. I Mean where where there is

God sent spirit sent conviction There is a warfare to disrupt

You know and so praise God that the conviction in the voice of God is so and that's what I pray for myself

It may seem like a weird prayer, but I pray all the time God make your voice so loud that it drowns out everything else speak so clearly

That I'll not even be tempted to turn to the left or the right or to be paying attention to someone something else and so So I wouldn't say it sometimes happens

I don't want to over cartoon it where there's like a little demon on one side and an angel on the other side and that kind of stuff but where the presence of God is the presence of an enemy is to And and and praise

God the enemy is not omnipresent. Satan is not omnipresent as God is But there are forces there that that where the presence of God is moving

Practically, I think every time there is there is some form of Evil that is at hand as well

And we just have to be able to discern that and it's a battle of the heart in the mind. So Energy John what you said actually reminds me of something

I read from Richard Baxter the other day on the subject of depression and he put that excessive sorrow that old

Puritan way of describing depression occurs when we Consider God's Word and the promises therein to be true and applicable to everyone but ourselves.

Yeah Almost almost in like a Genesis 3 did God really say

Sort of way that is this can't trust this That's good.

That's right Amen, so one of the things that I've said whenever we're dealing with the

Matters of salvation and I really appreciate everybody's thought on this as to whether they they agree or disagree one way or another, you know a lot of times

Whenever we and we invite sinners to Come to the altar at war or if there's an altar there or to make a decision for Christ to follow

Christ to surrender to him Oftentimes, I think They're given the sensation that this is the end of their journey

That they've that they've surrendered to Christ now This is this is over with when in all actuality they've never really had to fight every day in their life spiritual warfare much like they would after salvation because Prior to becoming a

Christian you're an enemy of God and he and he he loves you and Whenever you're whenever you're one of God's now your enemy hates you and and it's

The warfare is totally different in the past before you come to before you come to salvation.

You're the enemy of Your soul is one who saves your soul, right? the one that your soul actually hates is the one that loves you so much that he's done everything necessary for salvation and And I've worded it this way and it's it sounds derogatory and I don't mean for it to but it's almost like when you go to a

Graduation and you hear a 17 year old tell you about how they finally overcome graduating high school and they're going to go into the world and take the world by the horn and fix all the things that their forefathers have messed up and and they act as if though they've really accomplished something when what they've finished is the easiest years of their life

You know, they've they've they've never actually walked a day in the in the shoes that they're going to talk that they're talking about and people listen to them and act as if though there's some profound statements that get made most of the time and really it's ignorance most of the time but they just don't know any better and I have a feeling that even if we try not to we can give somebody a false sense of security or a false sense of Accomplishment by coming to the cross and giving them this idea that now your battle is over with and if you do that it's almost like Reminiscent of a prosperity gospel and whenever they find out that there's something different that they find out that yeah depression is still a real thing that Yeah, you may really not feel like doing this tomorrow and this may be the

Monday if you give your life to the Lord Sunday Monday it may be the hardest day you've ever had in your entire life and if you've let been led to believe that now your troubles are over and you've been you've been sold a lie and And like I said,

I opened it up for disagreement and and because I trust you guys that you'll you know correct me where I'm wrong, but that's that's kind of the

That's the way I warn people It's this coming to Christ you count count this out.

Make sure that this is Make sure make sure that you've you've counted what's gonna cost to build the house

What's gonna cost to go to war make sure that this is something that you've thought through this has been an emotional response to to a powerful sermon or to you know, convincing music or whatever the case may be and I surrendered to y 'all to throw rocks

Well, let me let me let me say this Life is hard Life is hard with Jesus life is how hard without Jesus choose your heart

In Christ we can endure the hard things with hope It may not always be something that is easy

But at the end of the day there is hope in Christ and that hope carries us through all the hard stuff

I've been reading Psalm 3 this week and in this Psalm 3 is something

David wrote in during his time when he is on the run from his son that he's not exactly in a

Comfortable situation. He's essentially a fugitive and In verse 5 he says

I light I lie down and sleep and then wake up again because Adonai Sustains me he's not in a bed.

He's not in this big royal bed here He's he's probably sleeping on the cave floor Mm -hmm, but God sustains him and so life was still hard, but God is good

He is receiving the fruit of that goodness in the midst of the deepest possible pain

Aside from being the crucified Son So yes,

I would agree. Absolutely with what you said John that this is where the rubber meets the road. It's gonna get hard But the difference is now there's hope

Now there is a new creation and a coming restoration when

Christ Brings all things under his feet Yeah, and I think you're talking

John about a methodology of evangelism or a methodology of preaching the gospel

And I think we've all at some point in time been raised Especially us old guys now

Tyler. I don't know about you, but it's especially us old guys We're raised in a generation of easy believism

Where you know where that's what's been said in order to trick people into Trick people into saying a prayer or or or just come do this and life gets better and life gets good and and you know come do this and all your problems go away and and honestly

I Don't think I had many problems until I met Jesus I would just be honest.

I mean that's when That's when it really hit the fan in my life that holy cow I am wicked and I loved my sin and now

I've got a real problem because Now I've turned to Christ and now I have a fight on my hands because my flesh is still craving sinful things

And and and I've got a problem and before that I was just enjoying my problems. I had no problems and so So I really think there is an honesty about there's a rejoicing for the conquering of sin in our life

There is a rejoicing in the finished work of Jesus and we cast our hope on him That it's not by our works, but by his grace

But immediately that person needs to be discipled It needs to be have mature believers walk with them and say now this is the reality of What we're in and there is and this momentary affliction

Man, you got my scripture right here Yeah, this momentary affliction cannot even compare

To the weight of glory that is in front of us You know So so those are the things that we just have to be honest with people about but I think what you're talking about is a methodology of authentic gospel preaching of the whole counsel of the

Word of God and people believing and Understanding the whole gospel and it's it is always rooted in the death the burial and the resurrection of Jesus But what really is that?

What are the implications of that in a person's life now and forever, you know? And that's that is that's part of the gospel as well so so that's

I think you're on to something very true, you know, and and that's where we came up with I Thought she's gonna say it earlier.

I couldn't be any better, you know, whatever we will say slang words Like I'm too blessed to be depressed, you know

And all these kind of little caveats because we don't want we don't want anybody to think that somehow

I'm not having the same joy as the first day that I got saved Well, if that was the case then why would why would we need to be reminded in Scripture?

Remember the day of your salvation, you know go back and remember what

I am NOT as happy Every day as I was the day that I came to Christ, you know

I'm not I'm not and and and neither was anybody else in the whole entire Bible, you know, so so anyways but I do think what you're hitting on is accurate and it's

It's it's more dealing with the methodology of the preaching of the gospel and leading people to an authentic relationship with Jesus Rather than a false gospel and it's really a false gospel.

It's a false Like you said it really even a false conversion, you know in many cases that they really don't know what they're believing or trusting you so I Think something you said

Jonathan was key and very very important in that process of healing because a lot of times when we're looking at spiritual things, they're they're internal and They're they're hard to they're hard to grasp.

They're hard to touch and we want something We want something tangible something that we can see and something that you said

I think will be really really good for the healing process and that's when you said

I Didn't in so many words just summarize what you said,

I didn't really know that I have problems until I met Jesus Which is evidence that you met

Jesus Amen And and so when you when you have conviction and when you when you see that there's struggle and you're struggling with your sin

Then that that's a fruit. That's a sign that you you have met Jesus and he's dealing with your heart

And so if we're if we're trying to find that line tonight, and we're trying to decide, you know

Who is Satan? What is conviction? I think that's one of that's a good place to start and definitely part of the healing process is that if if I'm having if I'm see even seeing it and realizing it that it's a problem then

It's probably God working on me because it's going back to what you said, brother

John repentance is going to lead conviction is going to lead to repentance and So if that conviction we're being made aware of it

We're seeing it and it's and it's leading us in that direction then praise the Lord. God is working on me.

That's right Man, yeah, I appreciate that and I was John when you were given that example

The gospel and how people see it today I was seeing a parallel with with the article from Rick Thomas that I sent you guys

Kind of this part of that article He had some of the some of the same mindset and flow that same direction that you were going

As far as People believing we're kind of kind of skipping a step once we kind of sell them a bill of goods once We say that once you once you're saved

Everything is supposed to be better and there's a there's this Mindset that completely transformed on the inside, but yet that doesn't happen until you know, we're glorified eternally and we're kind of Relatively, okay

We're not gonna have any more problems. Everything's gonna be good and that it's that gospel you guys were talking about we're sold a bill of goods that God God is gonna make everything better and everything's gonna be good and we're gonna make all kinds of money in Yeah Well, what what what

Pastor John and Tyler said go they may have said maybe what

I was meaning better than I did and When somebody comes to the Lord We know their estate is their in state is far superior than their state that they were prior to making the decision for Christ But what are the one of the things is they don't understand how unless they're discipled as Pastor John was saying you have to learn how to weigh out all these things.

He quoted from 2nd Corinthians Unless we weigh out the trials and the troubles that we face

We have the eternal weight of glory. We don't really understand and it can cause you to be anxious

I see Paul over and over again Romans 8 18 2nd Corinthians in Philippians 4

He's over and over again that these That these momentary lot afflictions are for I reckon that the sufferings of this world are not worthy to be compared to the glory that be

Revealed in us. These things are where Paul makes these arguments that I'm not discrediting what you're going through at all.

In fact, I'm telling you that the only way The hard things that you're going to go through or even worth it

Are because of the eternal weight of glory that is in Christ that this that if if you have hope in this world only

You're of all men to be most miserable It's because in Christ, this is going to be the hardest life in a lot of ways that you've ever gonna live

Pastor John said he didn't even know he had a hard time. So he so he come to the Lord. That's because he wasn't fighting and When people have anxiety whenever I deal with anxiety what

I always try to do is It never fails to work

Open scripture and I immediately Find a portion of scripture in a New Testament like in Philippians where Paul breaks down What is awaiting those who believe and then

I said, well, you know what I can get over this Because this is even if it lasted a hundred years. This is a very very short period of time in relation to the glory there

I've heard it said once In a negative way because they kind of condemned this

Mindset, but they said you don't want to be too heavenly minded that you're no earthly good

But I was like if my mind is not set on things above then I'm never gonna be or any earthly good

Exactly, right. I'm not sure exactly the direction they were going with it But but I'm like I've got to keep my eyes on Jesus or I won't be any earthly good

It's only through him that I can accomplish anything So let's go to this next question, which is a very tricky question, at least for me

I've never really heard it Put in this in this way Why do

I feel anxiety When I read scripture and And what would be the cure for that?

John Maybe this person was given the advice, you know, just a broad broad brushing advice

You need to pray more you need to seek the Lord and you need to read scripture and they say well,

I'm reading scripture I'm reading scripture, but I the more I read the more anxiety I have So the first question

I would ask this person if I was meeting with him is what scriptures are you reading?

I think that's very important because there are Portions of the Bible that I would not recommend for a person dealing with depression and anxiety to read because it it it could create deeper sorrow deeper

The enemy will use the Word of God just like he did with Satan to Have it just like he did with Jesus.

I'm sorry The enemy will use the Word of God just like he did with Jesus to tempt to to manipulate to create anxiousness and anxiety

But even if you're reading the right scriptures I Think one of the main questions that we have to answer and one of the main reasons that people get even more anxious reading scripture is because It really is a battle of faith with one

Primary question, there's multiple questions that may lead to this but it's my opinion It comes all the way back to the primary question is is is

God really good? Is God really good? Okay, and and so even can

I believe him is God good? God says all these things, but can I believe him and and the thing that we're battling against in that question is

We're looking at our circumstances, you know, whatever that circumstance is there's there's a friend of mine that's been going through a severe health issue and This person knows very well

Scripture very very knowledgeable scripture would not fall in the category at all of what

I said earlier of having an ignorance of the voice of God she's Very very knowledgeable of this

But She said it's getting harder to believe it because her sir because her circumstance is so Overwhelming to to them to even to their whole family.

It's in so so I'm thankful even for that Acknowledgement in the reaching out in the authenticity and the transparency

So when even when they're reading scripture, it's it's asking the question is God really good. Can I really believe this?

And if you're struggling with that inside then obviously God's you're reading stories of all these victorious people and where is my victory you're reading stories of of all these people that get deliverance and raised from the dead and healed and Miracles and miraculous things and where's mine at?

Why why you know and and so that's why there are Many portions of scripture that we should read

Love to read the Hall of Faith in Hebrews But we don't read the last of the chapter of those that lived in caves and died, you know suffered and died

We we don't point people to the book of Lamentation. I looked at this up just a few minutes ago.

Just It says this we are filled with fear We are trapped devastated and ruined tears stream from my eyes

Because of the destruction of my people my tears flow endlessly They will not stop until the

Lord looks down from heaven and sees my heart is Breaking over the fate of the people of Jerusalem.

That's the limitations 347 through 51 And so that is so reading some of that.

I Recommend people that are feeling depression to read stuff like that so that there is a common ground to find in Scripture There's a common ground that there are people that are broken and Weeping and and all of those kind of things go to those

Psalms and find the lamenting Psalms where the psalmist is just very Transparent it's not a bed of roses and it appears like there is no victory to be had

But what I like about this is every time you look with these kind of scriptures This is going to last in the book of Lamentation, but there's the caveat.

This is going to last how long? Until the Lord from heaven sees

And and the psalmist always says how long Lord will you let these enemies in camp around me? How long will you let this happen?

How long how long how long where are you at? Where are you at? Where are you at? And then he always

Concludes though, but I will remember the God of my youth. I'm not gonna let my circumstances

Determine my faith. I'm not gonna let my tears Determine the reality that as soon as God looks down on this

This ends when and I'm not gonna let my emotion in my view my worldview become a

Circumstantial worldview versus a biblical worldview that that is weeping lasts for the night, but joy comes in the morning

You know, there is there is these seasons and things and so so I just think that's that's that's really the root of it

Scripture Again a long answer, but number one, I would ask this person, you know

What scriptures are you reading? And are you reading scriptures that actually? Give you a level ground that relate to the brokenness of your heart or the brokenness of where you're at.

Are you are you? Understanding that God gives the scriptures that are on our level where we're at number two and most importantly

Are you? Really believing that God is good and if you really believe that God is good then his word has to be good and Therefore rather than being anxious about reading his word.

We can find a peace in it. And so but I think There could be so many things in this guys

And the end for people that struggle with things like that they could have come out of abusive situations that could have come out of abusive churches where pastors have beat people over the head with the

Bible and use the Bible as a weapon rather than a than a Than a healing bomb, you know,

I mean there there's so many circumstances and so, you know it When people ask questions like that, it's just really important to help them unpack

What is causing that? But nine times out of ten in my experience it leads back to the question

And if he is good that his word is good and we can find relatable passages that bring healing to our soul it's just Reading the right stuff that that ministers to us.

So that would be my perspective on it guys Tyler I would like to take something that Jonathan said offer it to you and let you expound on it if you would so we're talking about feeling more anxiety as we as we read scripture and And Jonathan was pointing out

Believing or belief in God and Believing or belief in God's goodness will affect how

I view my circumstances and how I read God's Word But then

I was thinking about something pastor John said earlier in the conversation about being a sovereigntist and So but believing in God and believing in God's goodness is a matter of faith

And what do we know about faith because I think this is something that we need to tackle in this process of healing

Because if we if we go down one path We may compound their their sorrow or their

Their depression, but if we if we take them To where pastor

Jonathan has taken us and and understanding God's sovereignty and where faith comes from Then I think we can bring great healing do you see where I'm going with this

I Think I do. Okay. No, I'm you're asking about how this this whole sovereignty thing fits into Having faith in the goodness of God when

I don't feel that God is good. Mm -hmm. Okay, so Conveniently, I actually have my

Bible here open to Lamentations chapter 3 Lamentations 3 has been profoundly profitable to me in my wrestlings with depression and It's just so Honest about all of this, but I want to kind of hone in on verse 18 here when it says

I think my strength is gone and so is my hope in the Lord Oftentimes, that's where we go.

I think is what Robert was alluding to that But I don't feel like trusting

God. I don't feel like believing God because why would a good God allow me to feel like this?

and we get into this this epistemology of emotions this understanding of reality that is bound up in how

I feel about reality and That's that can be a hard Pattern to break sometimes.

I know it's been a hard pattern to break for me that it's so easy to base the world off of how

I feel at the particular moment and So there is an element of getting out of my feelings and coming back to the reality of who

God is Even when it doesn't make sense to me It did make a whole lot of sense to Jeremiah why

This was happening to Israel why there was this level of suffering. I'm sure he did Understand they were desperately wicked and depraved but to be in it

Was still a whole nother experience It was one thing to write about the sins of Israel and quite another to be reaping the fruit that they had sowed the seeds of long past and So he gets to chapter 3 and he's lamenting personally.

He's not lamenting for The sorrows of Israel, but his own sorrows And he says my my strength is gone and so is my hope in God But then if we jump down a couple more verses, but in my mind,

I keep returning to something That gives me hope That the mercies of the

Lord Do not fail. They are new every morning. There's there was a

Jewish Folk tale a kind of a kind of a superstition and how they understood

Eternity in the soul that every night God took your soul and He just kind of held on to it overnight and in the morning.

He brought it back and so a lot the Superstition was that when you wake up it is a direct product of his mercy that he has

Granted you another day And so there was this constant returning to the fact that God's giving me another day

God's giving me another day that there is a purpose here I may not see that purpose right now, but the fact that I woke up this morning

Still held in the hands of a sovereign God There is something good here.

I just need to trust God and know that he is working that good out with a masterful craftsmanship that supersedes my own

And it's very similar to Salvation the gospel call I'm trusting in I'm trusting in God and not trusting in my faith in God That makes sense

John, yes, you have anything do you have anything to add on that? well I'm thinking about this this this whole thing about scripture causing anxiety to increase and You know,

I'm assuming This is an assumption. However that this person is a believer You know based off of the fact that they're going to scripture if they're anxious

So I suppose you'd have to come at with that preconceived notion, but you talked about Spurgeon and one of the

I can't find it online and you know, which I admit I'm not good at looking up stuff online. I Was watching a documentary

My goodness has probably been 10 years ago. He said That he tucked in a little Methodist Church to get out of the cold and it was the the day that he gave his life to the

Lord and he said that I That oftentimes he had thought about the same God that sent folks crying and weeping

To an altar over their sin and falling into the arms of a loving father was the same he viewed that same loving father as a cruel taskmaster his entire life and he and it had caused him to Not not come to the one who actually could offer him

Salvation and I butchered that quote. It's it's a terrible You know, I didn't remember it, right, but in any case

I find it that if you to the believer when

I When I go to scripture, I'm always comforted Is that is that not the norm and I have

I been so ignorant to that that I didn't that that's not the norm Pastor John never the scripture not Well, the scripture to me is not always comforting.

No, is it not? No, I wouldn't say that it is I mean, that's that's the same thing is I don't like it

Scripture that brings conviction. I mean we should like it. Okay, but I'm just saying that the feeling and Emotion that we have is not always comforting.

It's sometimes you do that. It is it's convicting it is it is

It's sharper than a two -edged sword. It's cutting And and honestly guys, this is not an easy answer

This is an answer that a person and we're making assumptions on this person

This this is something really and truthfully if someone has those kind of a feelings and emotions

You really is something that has to be unpacked through biblical counseling and I'm not talking psychology.

I'm talking really Biblical counseling to where this person can unpack what is triggering that there there are triggers in our lives

And and relational things I've had people tell me they have a really hard time Relating to God as father because every time they would say the

Lord's Prayer as our father There's a trigger in them of an abusive father who had sexually molested them or or beaten them senseless as a child

And and and it's going to take some counsel and take take discipleship to help them understand

That is not a heavenly father and and the other thing too guys that we just have to be sensitive about Men deal with things very differently than women

We're very much a compartmentalized. Let's read this. Let's believe it. Let's get over it and let's move on and And ladies aren't like that And so that's what

I'm trying to say is we're kind of shooting in the dark a little bit and Robert you're doing right by Keeping this confidential, but we're absolutely kind of shooting in the dark a little bit without knowing some further context of what it is and what they're actually reading and what is and being able to unpack behind the scene of what's actually triggering this and what what was leading to their anxiety depression to begin with and those kind of things and so So again it for sure

The Word of God is not always Easy, sometimes it's bitter, you know Sometimes word of God is bitter like when

I read Romans 9 the first time I read it It did not create comfort it created anger in me, you know

I mean like who are you old man to talk back to God or it's not of man's will or not of the work of Man, but of God who has mercy now, wait a minute.

What about my wheel? You know, what about it, you know, and then so so the Word of God at times has created anger in me

You know, I mean, so there's there's all of those kind of things That at least initially can create anxiety can create anger can create bitterness create more questions than answers

I think we've probably all been there you read a scripture and it creates more questions than answers and and that could be a form of anxiety and so But if you stick with it the faithfulness of God in the

Spirit of God does bring us So so it's not always I guess what I'm trying to say. It's not always immediate So so one thing

I would challenge on that just a little bit just and that challenge the wrong word but one thing

I'll push back on that a little bit is to say that whenever when I'm talking about going to scripture

I Too am trusting in God's sovereignty whenever I read something that I do not understand or I read something that causes me to have and I can

I can point to different spots, but the second time I won't there have been times when Digging through the truth of scripture has caused me to become

I'll use the word anxious about a scenario Because maybe it maybe when you're reading

Hebrews you run across difficult Passages in Hebrews that you would say have I out seen God's amount of forgiveness or things and then whenever you begin to feel conviction over something that has always given me a sense of Peace as weird as that is because that means

God's not done with me because he chastens his children Why would he why would he spend time chastening his children?

if if they weren't his children and and I may be skipping a step here or there and not actually

Explaining why it gives me peace maybe maybe that's one of the reasons but it's because when I read scripture

I see I See God's sovereignty and I see God's hand in it and I think

I I can hear him say it Brother Chad used to tell me all the time whenever I would ask him a question about something.

I wasn't understanding He would sometimes look at me as just as bold as he could he'd say son.

I don't understand either He said I've got a filing cabinet Slap full of things. I don't understand and when

I come across these portions of scripture. I take them out I stick them in that drawer and I shut that drawer and I know that whatever it is

It is right because God has done it. And even if I don't understand it, it's for my good and He said

I call that faith knowing that regardless of what it is. It's right and God's good in it and it's for my good

Especially when I don't understand it that's whenever it's faith and I and if I when I come to those portions

I say hmm My filing cabinet is big. I got a lot of stuff. I don't understand there's more stuff in my filing cabinet things

I don't understand the things I do understand and It causes me it forces me to do the thing that I would never want to do in my flesh, which is to run to him and in running to him

He has never turned me aside. He's always carried me up and he's and he's he's comforted me

Because I've ran him so in a sense if the scriptures that you're reading makes you anxious my answer to that would be run to the one who wrote it and find comfort in him as Opposed to searching the interwebs for some

Tom Dicker Harry's explanation of something Go to the author and ask him to give you comfort in it and trust him and just just trust him wholesale

Full stop, whatever it is. Just trust him in it especially when you don't want to and that will take a sound mind that will take something that is that is led by the

Holy Spirit because he has given us a Spirit of sound mind not a spirit of fear, but one of a sound mind.

So we should be using that To to weigh that out and I know that in the emotional and emotion that may be difficult especially if you're dealing with a lady and and and I don't know if you are

I have a house full of them and and they don't think most of the time with anything other than our hearts you have to really say well, wait a minute calm down and think yet and I'll yield the rest of my time.

No, that's good The only thing I would say John is you're right and the reason that you run To God is because you're still confident that he is good.

You still have an unwavering faith that he's good He is sovereign. He is right and I'm going to run to him

But what about the person that's just like we read in limitations 3

That's saying you know what? I don't know if I really I'm losing my faith here. I'm losing my mind here

I'm losing and then I'm trying to read and when I'm reading It's not really

I'm not really getting answers and and I've been in these seasons of life where God is silent

You know I mean we're like you are you're Praying and you're crying out to God and it feels like your prayer goes no further than the end of your nose where are you really connecting and and again, that's that is me believing my emotions and how

I feel and What we've done is we've created in many times a creation Christianity and that's what you were hitting on a while ago about even the question

Salvation we've created a Christianity that's rooted in our feeling rather than truth and and My feelings if I went by that,

I'm I'm lost probably at least once a day I understand those that would at least based on feeling the belief of conditional security because if it wasn't for the truth of God's Word and it's based on how

I feel then You know, am I really saved in this moment am

I you know what I mean and yes I am and I know that's that may be going too far at my own personal mental battle every day, but I'm just saying that's that's

That's the only reason I'm saying it's we have to be sensitive with it just because it is, you know, you don't know

Where this person's at mentally they may not be at the same place of faith that we're at We don't know what they're dealing with in their own lamenting and their own calling out to God and In the coldness.

I don't know how to explain it but it is there are times that the There's a coldness that God allows us to go through which in return and so where I do agree with you 100 %

John is It all ends in peace It all ends making us stronger.

It all ends making us believe more it all ends in redemption. The problem is

In my opinion in my life I want a fast -food God where I have a drive -by prayer and I say it and in five minutes

I pull up the window and I got my order just how I want it and and that's not how

God works and so So so all I'm saying is we just have to be graceful with people in their journey

Knowing that there's a joy that comes in the morning knowing that you keep pressing You keep going you don't lose heart is what

Paul was telling those people don't lose heart Because there is a harvest if you don't give up don't give up Don't lose heart.

Keep pressing keep praying keep having conversations with godly people

Keep calling upon the Lord day and night and give him no rest Continue to go to his word and eat and drink of him all that are thirsty and all that are hungry

Eat and drink of him keep pressing and there is a harvest there even for our soul

That we have rest. That's Jesus's promise And that's the one I run to a lot of times that Jesus is I will give you rest for your soul

It's not even rest from the sins of the world and the brokenness of the world It is a peace that surpasses understanding peace that not as the world gives you

But my peace Jesus said and so so for people to get that And I've done a lot of walked with a lot of people for a long time pastor

Josh Kappas has taught me a lot over the last few years because I used to counsel with people three Times and if I couldn't if I couldn't fix you in three times and you're just broke

Good luck go on and figure something else out And and so what I'm trying to say is that was that was sort of my mentality is look just read it

Believe it and get over it Until come on, Nancy You know

Until until I went through some real devastating things in my life And I had you know,

I had a mother killed by drunk by a drunk driver One of our brothers here. I was

I was empathizing with him the other day and and you know I was a fired pastor and you know, the most devastating thing ever went through in my life.

I Seriously contemplated suicide. I seriously contemplated all of those kind of things and had it not been for the

Holy Spirit and Then some really big important secondary motivations, but really important such as a godly wife and beautiful children

Those things in front of me had it not been for those things. I don't think I'd be sitting here with you guys right now but but the

Lord is faithful and and so So all I'm saying is guys this this is a deep issue that that if someone is feeling anxiety because of reading

I Feel like there's probably some some things that need to be unpacked with that person helping them

Understand what they're reading and then really believing that what they're reading is given to us from a

God that is good That is sovereign that is in control. Even when everything feels like chaos and out of control

God is in control and he is we're doing a work. He promises us that he's doing a work That's for our good and for his glory.

And then like you said John we do we just have to trust him We have to trust him and that is a very hard thing in our culture today is to trust

Especially stuff that we don't see instant gratification in that's very very hard to do.

So Anyways, that's my two cents on it. I yield back. Mr. Robert. Well, I think I think what you guys were saying

Should be and will be Encouraging I think it should be encouraging to this person and every person that hears this because what

I hear you saying is Yeah, we don't we don't know this individual. So we don't know all the ins and outs

There's things that need to be unpacked So there's work that can be done. He keeps working keep moving forward and then what

I also heard you guys say is While you're doing that keep in mind that at the end of this with Christ Jonathan pastor

Jonathan was saying there's rest There's peace There's comfort

There's full knowledge that the list and John pastor John mentioned

So so much more the list goes on and on with Christ There's answers and so don't give up keep moving forward and Go for that biblical counseling continue in Scripture Keep looking to Christ because there will be that rest.

There will be that peace. There will be that comfort There will be that knowledge and there will be that family.

I mean, there's everything that we long for in Christ These are full satisfaction

And We'll finish here Pastor John mentioned the last thing that I wanted to cover and I'll give each of you a chance to address this

So pastor John said if it if it hadn't been for the Spirit, so Tyler we'll start with you

What is the Spirit's role in this anxiety and fear and depression?

situation In our in our hearts and in our lives Ezekiel 36

Tells us that I will put my spirit in you and you shall live I will take out your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh

In other words a heart that is alive that is made of something new something living something organic and so what the

Holy Spirit does On Blanket statement is makes us new gives us a new operating system that we are being conformed to the image of Christ slowly incrementally one day at a time one moment at a time

But when we come to the subject of depression We have a new outlook. We have a new way of responding to things a new way of Addressing things that when issues come up in this this calloused heart of mine

That does not want to submit to things that wants to get caught up in its feelings There is an advocate that is guiding me down a different path that is guiding me to look at things

Through a different lens to look at things as they truly are in light of who

God is. I Keep on my desk this rock and I have had this rock since third grade

My teacher actually gave me this rock I was having a very bad day and I I've kept this rock my whole time my whole life just about and one thing that's struck me in recent years is

How smooth this rock is? And rocks don't get smooth Instantly and they don't just appear smooth.

That is something that is done to them That is the way they interact with other rocks and other outside forces

Breaking off all of those rough bits and smoothing off the outside in some ways

The role of the Holy Spirit is like that that is chipping away at all those jagged edges of this calloused hard heart of mine and Giving me a heart of flesh something that is new is something that is pure and it means rooting out some bad stuff and part of that is

Plays out in the way I respond to my own self Richard Baxter once I believe

I believe it was once said that the greatest snare to myself is myself And so the

Holy Spirit is completely necessary if we are to navigate this hard subject

Amen John, what what are your thoughts on the role of the Holy Spirit? My second about second

Timothy whenever I spread it spread that earlier. So I'm gonna say it Second Timothy 1 Paul is Apostle Christ Jesus by the will of God according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus to Timothy My beloved son grace and mercy grace mercy and peace from God the

Father and our Lord Jesus Christ Or excuse me, Jesus Christ our Lord I thank God whom

I serve who I serve with a clear conscience The way my forefathers did as I constantly remember you in my prayers night and day

Longing to see you even as I recall Your tears so that I may be filled with joy for I am mindful

I'm mindful of the sincere faith within you which first was in your grandmother Lois and your mother

Eunice and I'm sure that it is within you as well for this reason I'm remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you to the laying on of my hands for God has not

Given us a spirit of timidity Timidity but of power and of love and of discipline therefore to not be ashamed of the testimony of our

Lord Or of me his prisoner but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God Who saved us and called us even in his even in his exhortation to Timothy?

Paul is reminding him that it's worth it. That's going to be worth it And this is not a work of the flesh

This is not a work of the body just as a gospel is an offense to the flesh

So is the suffering that comes with? Serving Christ at times There's nothing in your flesh.

If you're ever being if you're ever being persecuted for Christ, which by God's grace That's never happened to me That would that would just get up and scream.

Yes. I get beat for the Lord today That is a work of the Holy Spirit in a man and We can't deny that in any capacity.

So when you see somebody who says it that God has given us a Spirit of love and sound mind and discipline

Not one of fear And I don't know that you could just blanket put anxiety in there and I wouldn't do that because context that he's writing

Timothy I wouldn't dare do that in this scenario, but He Hasn't given us a reason to be afraid we have to we have to reason with our flesh

Constantly and that is something that takes an outside force working on you because you do not have that in and of yourself to do

That so I would say that it is absolutely necessary For the

Holy Spirit to be working in somebody for them to ever overcome fear or anxiety or depression of any kind whatsoever

That anything else is just a band -aid or a plug in a leaking dam Pastor John if you would give us your thoughts on the work of the

Holy Spirit and Wrap us up with with the gospel and Tyler when he does that. Would you mind to close this in prayer?

So the The reality is to a depression there are ordered depressions and Disordered Oppressions and depressions and Ordered means it comes from somewhere and I do think there are times that a person can have a disorder chemically imbalances chemical imbalances or things in their mind but ordered means there there are things that have caused it and and So where the

Holy Spirit comes in is to help us have right perspective the

Holy Spirit Gives us perspective on who we are what is causing this and Primarily the

Holy Spirit is a comforter. I mean, I I go just just take it from Jesus's words more than mine

John 14 16 says I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper that he may be with you

Forever. He's the helper. He's that comforter John 14 26 But the helper the

Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name He's going to teach you so the Holy Spirit is going to be teaching you these things

And then John 15 26 says when the helper comes whom I will send to you from the

Father That is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father He will testify about me and so therefore the

Spirit of God will testify the Holy Spirit will testify about the truth of Jesus Christ and then

Jesus said but I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage actually that I'm going to go away Because when

I go away the helper which is also Interchanged with the word comforter will come to you.

I will send him to you and so so the Holy Spirit is is is not just a

Part of the solution Really the Holy Spirit is the beginning of the solution.

He is the solution He is the solution that's going to be the helper that's going to guide us in all manners of truth

Well, where do we find all manners of truth? It is the Word of God So it's the Holy Spirit that's going to lead us through the scriptures

It's the Holy Spirit that that is going to testify of Jesus through scripture and even in our own spirit

The Spirit will bear witness with our spirit that this is truth and and the helper the comforter

He's going to be with us forever. He's that is how God keeps his promise that he never leaves us or forsake us

That's how Jesus keeps his promise in Matthew 28 and that I'm going to be with you even all the way to the end

It is the Holy Spirit. It's the Spirit of Christ the Spirit of God the Holy Spirit And so it's not just a part of the solution.

He is the solution and And that's that to me is why it's so important. And so it's the transition into the gospel with this

You know Jesus Tells us that we have a Savior who is tempted in every way

I was thinking about this earlier. Is it is it actually a sin to be a depressed and The reality is it's not a sin to be depressed.

It's what you do with your depression. That is sinful and That's that is that is very key because listen to this scripture and this this scriptures that has helped me

Just like I'm glad Tyler read limitations 3 that is a powerful text for anybody that deals with depression

This one also helps me to trust Jesus listen to what Matthew 26 tells us in verse 37

Jesus says this my soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death

Stay here and keep watch with me and in going on a little father He fell with his face to the ground and prayed

Jesus was definitely depressed Oppressed Having anxiety having all those kind of things knowing what he's going to face and look what

Jesus does He he falls on his face. He will first boys with friends. He said stay with me

So he's staying close with his friends and he falls on his face And he calls upon the Lord and what

I'd say tonight guys Is is that that is that is the gospel in that very much to me because of course

Jesus was not sinful in this But what we do with our depression is sinful we run from Jesus and that's what we've done

Our whole life is run from Jesus, but then God sends his spirit to us He's in his goodness and his love and his mercy sends his spirit to us that turns our heart to fall on our face in our brokenness in our

Devastation and the Bible says that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved John 6 tells us that whosoever comes to him.

He will not turn you away That's exactly what John said earlier that I love part of what he was saying that every time

John has run to God God's never turned him away And that's the fact tonight is that we have a

Savior who can empathize with our brokenness and our sorrows and our griefs We have a

Savior that can empathize with betrayal and loss we have a Savior that can empathize with the wickedness of a world and being totally innocent that Devastating things happen and the reality is this if he knows what that is

We're not innocent. We are fallen. We are broken, but he's saying I'm going to give you a hope and he died for us

He died for those for us that were broken and I love What the Bible says that God is near to the brokenhearted and those that are contrite in spirit

He's near to you tonight If you are in a place that you're brokenhearted and you're contrite in spirit

The Bible promises us that God is near to you right now And so he says call upon him while he's near seek him while he can be found and I would just plead with you tonight

That if it is for salvation, the Bible says call upon the Lord just call upon Jesus believe on him and call upon him and and ask him to save you and the

Bible is most most powerful promise says he will all the promises of the

Bible says he will or tonight to Just like Jesus was in his anxiety. Maybe you are a believer

And just like Jesus did in his anxiety in his moments right before the cross.

We find him on his face Calling out to God God if there's some way let this cup pass from me

He was pleading with God for deliverance out of that, but then none nevertheless Thou will be done.

We find Jesus completely surrendering trusting in the plan of a good father And so tonight that's what

I'd encourage you to do too Don't let your depression or your anxiety cause you to fall into sin, which would be a lack of faith

But actually cause you let your depression let your anxiety Break you to a place that you call upon the

Lord and then there is his spirit That will bring healing that will bring redemption that will bring clarity

And then you've got the body of Christ around you don't do it alone tonight If you're depressed or you have anxiety or you're dealing with those things don't walk alone in it

We're not designed to walk alone. Even in the beginning God made Adam a helper and it's not good for man to be alone

Seek out godly counsel seek out godly pastors and I can assure you That if you reach out to us in this broadcast, we will follow up with you.

We will minister to you We'll help you connect no matter where it's at. We'll we'll go to whatever length we need to do

To try to help you as best as we can. So so call upon the Lord So if you need salvation call upon him tonight and be saved if you need deliverance from this

Fall on your face and call on the Lord. He is near so God bless you. Tune in Go ahead

Tyler Let's pray father

God we come to you having been fed having been reminded of your goodness and of your sovereignty

The fact that you are not inaccessible We take comfort in the fact that we do not come to a mountain that can be touched

But we come into the presence of God your yourself We gather in the real thing

We don't come to a symbol we come to you We run to you

When everything else falls apart we run to you. Well, we don't know what to do. We run to you

When nothing makes sense and we we're trying to hang on when we feel like giving up and we realize that We've been held in your hand the whole time

God may you burn this and new in our hearts that we may walk differently

Knowing that we are held in your hands that we lay down to sleep and we awake of the next day because you

Lord sustain Us and in Christ precious name we do pray

Amen Amen, I want to praise the Lord for his help tonight I want to thank these gentlemen for sharing the wisdom that God has given them and I want to thank you guys for watching and thank you for your support.

And as always Sorry about that We want you to remember that Jesus is

King and go live in that victory live in the victory of Christ Go speak with the authority of Christ and go share the gospel of Christ.