Cultish: An Introductory Overview of the Hebrew Roots Movement, Pt. 2

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Is Protestantism Heresy? Pt. 3 - The Pope | Collision w/ Jeff Durbin

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Alright, welcome back. Ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is

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Jeremiah Roberts I'm one of the co -hosts here. I am joined as always by Andrew the super sleuth of the show

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Super sleuthing up in the back in the background up in Harriman, Utah Andrew, how are you doing, man?

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How'd you like that first episode on the Hebrew roots? I loved it, man It was a long awaited for right and I think that it was very thorough

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And I'm very excited where we're gonna be going with this whole series actually on the Hebrew roots movement.

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So yeah, I'm doing great praising God over here and Yeah, I'm excited. I mean,

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I'm just excited dude. I'm excited about everything. I guess. Yeah, you're always excited I'm always gonna tune your minds always being blown

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So we are gonna get our minds blown here in part two in part one We just again we just kind of gave just a general overview of the movement

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Just a tiny bit of its history and just maybe a general consensus of the culture of its of its appeal but what we're gonna try and do is again, this group is a group is very

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Decentralized so I don't think there's any way even in this podcast We're gonna be able to accurately nail down the theology behind every single particular group but we just want to hopefully give just a general consensus a general primer into some of the

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Theological And epistemology the the epistemological claims behind the Hebrew roots movement

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So yeah, we are joined once again by Andrew Schumacher Andrew. It's good to have you back Good to be back.

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Okay, so I know we kind of had an outline here But just off the get -go because I mean you've explored this this is in close proximity your wife got into it and and it's sometimes

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You know something comes a foot that's unexpected or surprising and somehow becomes I gotta research this and figure it out so just from your understanding in your perspective when you talk about the importance of Theological topics from most important to minimal

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What would be some of the most? Important things to kind of look out for or just to kind of be aware of as far as the like What are the top concerning?

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Sort of theological or epistemological claims in the Hebrew Hebrew roots movement that we should be wary of Yeah, so real quick before I do that,

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I'm just correct one thing my wife didn't really get into it Nick my wife Nikki.

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She actually Had a YouTube channel and still does and she got connected with a lot of other

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YouTube Youtubers like her, you know wives mothers that kind of thing and a lot of them were

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Connected with people in the movement. And so we're promoting things and so she kind of was asking about it but yeah as far as the

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As far as the most important thing. I Would say that the central

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Theological point that is pretty much universal is the idea that the whole law of Moses Must be kept.

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It's it's the law of God. It is eternal. Well eternal isn't necessarily universal

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It's nearly universal. But the idea that it is binding on Christians today that we are to keep every

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Commandment as much as we can is is usually the way that it's expressed So, you know, they wouldn't necessarily say we have to do all the sacrificial stuff right now because there's no temple or priesthood active

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But they would say that any commandment that is for you that you can do you should do

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That's really the I've as I've really studied it pretty much every other doctrine

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Flows from that you can see how it's either It either just logically follows from that or it's motivated by that.

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It gives you know, that gives it a reason to exist Now some groups will elevate other doctrines besides that besides Torah observance as more important than others, of course, but But that's really

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I think the the main thing that that they all have in common So that's what I've definitely spent the majority of my time dealing with Okay.

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Okay, definitely And so then as far as that's concerned But like that's sort of the general premise and from there when it begins to stem out into further observations and practices

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So from there, what would be some other things we would look out for? Yes, so Another big one is the the idea that the law is eternal that the law of Moses goes back to creation

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It will go forward to eternity That you know that every person always it's always been there that it wasn't just given with Moses I know one

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Hebrew roots teacher actually promotes the idea that God and the angels keep the law in heaven that they go and do

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Sacrifices in heaven and and all that kind of stuff. So there's this idea that it's eternal is definitely one of those

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Another that it's of course You know if it's eternal it's it hasn't changed, you know the idea that there's no changes possible in the law

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Also that that the covenants the biblical covenants Especially the ones related to the

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Mosaic Covenant that the major ones like, you know with Abraham Moses the New Covenant Those tend to get blurred in different ways and so you have a lot of folks that will say well the

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New Covenant is really the renewed covenant that it's the It's the renewed Mosaic Covenant because it had been broken and needed to be reestablished by Christ.

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And so that's really what he was doing But then others will redefine the

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New Covenant in other ways of course the I the concept of a distinction between moral ceremonial civil law is

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Rejected as being a man -made distinction And as I mentioned in the previous episode, there's

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You know that Like the British Israelism of Herbert Armstrong, they believe in a sort of to house what they call to house theology

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Which is the house of Israel in the house of Judah and that the house of Judah is the Jews the house of Israel is the northern ten tribes and they got scattered among the

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Gentiles and so you may be in one of those tribes and therefore Because because of that you're part of Israel and therefore, you know, you are you say they meet you maybe

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When you say that you may be part of the ten tribes. How does one? Go about determining that I mean we just did the episode how to talk to Hebrew Israelites And and then again, this is just a general term because in this very similar

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There are so many different groups and subsections of the Hebrew Israelite groups all claiming to be in the truth

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But in many ways the Hebrew Israelites they directly correlate what tribe

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You are specifically in regards to your skin ethnicity and the color of your skin or your ethnicity

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How does the Hebrew Roots movement? How do they determine how one if I'm one of these tribes you said the tribes of Judah, right?

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Of Israel of Israel northern. Yeah, how do they how do they figure that out? So if I was someone tells you that I was like, okay.

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Well, how would I go about figuring that out? Do I do a genealogy? Do I do some sort of test? Like how do

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I do that? Well, you believe right you believe in Jesus, right? So you must be you must be one of the the called man one of the elect that that's what

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I would assume Well, if you believe then that's that's what it is. Sorry I was just trying to think like yeah, they would think for a second that that's what

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I would assume yeah, and that is definitely one of the the Ways that they they would would promote it.

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It's There's a lot of variety in that some will I think the most common way

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I've heard it is that You know that oh, well the tribes just got so interspersed that pretty much

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Anybody probably has some Israelite blood in them somewhere. And so or they might say something along those lines that you know that Yeah that the fact that you believe is evidence that you're one of God's people that he's calling back and that kind of a thing

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But I've also seen you know more fringe folks who try to make all sorts of arguments about you know where someone's from and and that these descended from this tribe of Israel because of XYZ, you know, they're kind of digging into Esoteric history stuff.

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So it again it varies quite a bit The most common way.

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I've heard it Promoted though is really just to say that when the point of it isn't so much.

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Well for some it is but the most common way I've heard it promoted is not so much that you are

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Definitely physically descended from one of the 10 tribes that were lost Rather, it's to say that to try to make the argument that when

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Paul talks about Gentiles He's talking about the the northern kingdom the the house of Israel When he's talking about Gentiles and and in doing so They can then argue that see

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Gentiles are also Expected to to keep the law the Gentile, you know, the the 12 tribes were there at Sinai All 12 tribes were there all 12 tribes said that they would keep the law you're and you're likely part of that So that's kind of the the the main point of it.

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It seems I have a thought on that but go ahead Andrew Yeah I want a question with regards to eschatology then for to house theology just Just to hear kind of what they think so say so say we got the

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Diaspora We've got the splitting of the Jews from the northern kingdom going all over like the Middle East and things like that and then mixing

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They're their blood mixes essentially So we have like the called the foreknown the predestined all of these people are essentially of the mixed blood

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But they do have some Israelite blood. So in terms of eschatology what is the For people who hold the two house theology

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What is the the consummation then? essentially is it that all of a sudden all of these mixed blood people get back to one and they

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Recover the Mosaic law like what what what is it in that sense? That's that's a big part of it, but it's not it's

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They see it as Not so eschatology is a you know, we could we could probably do an entire thing on that but Their eschatology is very similar to though.

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They would definitely Reject the label but very similar to a dispensational pre -millennial

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Eschatology they would reject the label because they they don't like dispensationalism because dispensationalism says well

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There was the dispensation of Moses and they were under the law now. We're in a new dispensation. So we're not under law so they definitely don't

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Affirm that label or that that overall theology but in terms of what they say about the last days it's it's very reminiscent of a lot of dispensational theology and They would yes.

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I've definitely heard a lot of discussion around God is is revealing and awake

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They use the term awakening a lot just similar to the Hebrew Israelites that their God is awakening his people

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From all the tribes and gathering them together You know to for the for the last days and and they don't think that it's the mid, you know even though we might say well, okay if it's

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Everybody then it's everybody right? But no, it's not everybody. It's just you know, the people from from all over are

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Coming back and they're coming to Torah and and that's what's gonna you know, that's gonna happen here

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But really, you know, they're gonna be awakened But then Jesus is gonna come back and there's gonna be a thousand -year reign where he rebuilds the temple and and there's reinstitute

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Reinstitute sacrifices and and all of that, you know is sort of goes along with that.

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But but definitely The idea that you know, people are being awakened to their

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Israelite heritages is a big part for a lot Definitely not all but but a lot of folks

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Yeah, and again just just the every even that that fundamental foundation the epistemological foundation it's and this is similar to what you saw what

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I've seen in that document as I guys that's kind of going through it and Kind of analyzing some of the claims made and this is just the case a lot of times of these movements of that there's a huge you always have to differentiate between assumptions and Definitive proof where you're just sort of someone just involved this than that and that's just my well again

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My can doubtless my conjecture of what of what they are doing there because he says well if you Do this as this then more than likely you're part of the tribe, you know

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You're part you're part of these particular tribes and that's and that's just one thing That's kind of like that's a little bit of a red flag there as well, too

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So is so another category and this is a case too because I would like to get more clarity on you put one of the main

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Concerns is a denial of the Trinity and so how How does specifically

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Does the Hebrew roots how this affects the Hebrew roots movement? I would say I would assume this isn't representative of Everyone in the

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Hebrew roots movement I'm assuming that there are people within the Hebrews movement who would believe in the

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Trinity when a test belief into it But would there the reason why you put that in there is does it kind of set a premise?

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For one to deny the Trinity or to question the validity of the

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Old Testament because they read the New Testament into the old Which is also what one is Pentecostals do as well to the

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PCI which we've done episodes on or explain to me Like, how do those two things go together? so the just I understand so you're asking how the

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I Understood so you want to talk about their different views on the

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Trinity? Well, yeah, just that we say like the denial of the Trinity in relation to the

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Hebrews movement like how do those two things get Fit together, right? so a big part of it kind of like we talked about last time, you know goes back to Constantine and and they think that all the that the

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Christian Church has gone pagan ever since The Council of Nicaea and there and since the

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Council of Nicaea was about you know, the deity of Christ What's you know, so that's something that we probably don't want to don't want to go with so there's this yeah

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It's definitely not universal and as I as we said last time, but I want I just want to reiterate You know, we're using this term

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Hebrew roots We're using it just as a catch -all because yeah a lot of folks that especially the ones who are more

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More Orthodox who do believe in the Trinity? They really don't like the label Hebrew roots because it's associated with all this this heresy so I I can definitely respect that but I just want to make sure we're

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Talking about what's important. So so deaf when it comes to the Trinity I see basically four groups in a sense

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There's those who are Trinitarian, you know those who are staunchly Trinitarian They believe they've read they've read their

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Bible They know that that it teaches that the Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is

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God They are one God but distinct in person. They they think yes Trinity And they may not like the language.

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They may not use the word Trinity. They may prefer to use the word triune which You know that happens but you know, you know, their their theologies is on so you have those folks and then you've got

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Those who deny it falling into various historical

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Heresies, you know, so there are Aryans. There are modalists. There are Unitarians So, you know and so basically what to not just throw labels

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Aryans and Unitarians both believe that Jesus is not God not the one

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God But Aryans and Unitarians differ on whether Jesus pre -existed so an

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Aryan thinks that Jesus pre -existed He was God's first creation. He was there at the creation of the world so that view is represented as well as the

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Unitarian view that Jesus is just human had no pre -existence prior to being in Mary's womb and Then there's modalists who believe that God is really just one person the

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Father and the Son. There's no Difference of person there's no relationship of persons there There's just the one person taking on different modes or different, you know

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Manifestations, so you've got you've got all those views and and others represented the third group are sort of the those who are kind of making up their own thing or maybe unknowingly are influenced by We're just the history of the group that they're part of so I've heard some that say well

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Jesus is God in that he's sort of, you know, he's the arm of God So he's you know, he's described that way or he's you know, so he's he's really

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God, but he's not the same person, but he's not really distinct It's it gets complicated a lot of them are trying it seems are trying to carve out their own little niche

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You know that this is the the thing to believe but then there are

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There are those that like I said before that take on the Armstrong ism Aspect that say well actually that it's sort of a

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Ability, you know a only father and son the spirits not a person but the father and son are distinct persons and they're both

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God Because God means the fam, you know is Elohim is a plural term and therefore

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God it means family And and so God is a is a family and that was that was a Herbert Armstrong thing

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And that's what I've heard some in the Hebrew roots say So there's there's all these different Views and then the the fourth category is really

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Like, you know, we mentioned 119 ministries in the last episode they They're not really like a leader who leads a congregation they're just sort of like an online create content to teaching content for everybody and I've I've tried and have not found any commitment from them despite their vast library

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On the question of you know, the deity of Christ or the Trinity or any of that so there are some who just don't really get very very specific about it and so and And I think that's because they realize this is an area of great division in Within the the movement so to speak within the greater

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Torah observing movement that you know One side's calling the other side pagan for believing the

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Trinity and and and so on so there's a there's a it's a it's a Big area of division. I know someone personally who?

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in in my area who leads a congregation that's calls themselves Messianic, but you know kind of within this broader movement and He and I chatted about the fact that they had some

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Non -trinitarians coming in and he had to put his foot down that that the Trinity is true

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And he lost about half his congregation because of it. Mmm, okay So just I think just for the sake of time

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What we want to say is that this is just indicative of a problem within the movement and depending on because it's decentralized it can be an area just a conflict and it just it's somewhat it just given their pre commitments of their epistemology and Their and their idea of what the role of the

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Torah is it's a catalyst for many times for it being Even divisive even internally like a people who are committed to Hebrew roots then is that correct?

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Yeah, yeah, it's it's definitely one of the big disagreements for sure, okay? Yes, the next category.

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I just we kind of move along here is that so they reject the pagan stuff from Christianity And they reject the rabbinical concepts of Judaism so Can you give us some examples of what that looks like specifically yeah, so it's it's common to have someone say something like I'm not a

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Jew and I'm not a Christian because The Christians let pagans, you know, let paganism come in and they've added all these

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Holidays and they believe in the Trinity and things like that But then the the

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Jews rejected Christ and they also added a bunch of laws You know, they added their human traditions in the

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Talmud and and things like that So you've got a lot of the rabbinical traditions of things like, you know men wearing head covering

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You know having Doing doing Passover a certain way do all these things a lot of times come out of rabbinical tradition and they

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Whenever someone says, oh you're trying to be Jewish. They're like no, I'm not trying to be Jewish I'm trying to follow the

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Torah and you know, the Jews follow the rabbis. I follow the Torah. So so they definitely try to Distinguish themselves as the ones kind of in the middle that are

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Holding to the truth where these others have gone astray okay, okay call like people who like would they say that the

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The rabbinical traditions of Judaism are fair cycle in a sense. Is that why they yeah

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That's pretty common. Yeah, okay Okay, great. And so then

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I guess unless you have any other observations Andrew and this is something we addressed this earlier is that one of the theological characteristic is that they tend to flatten and blur the distinctions between the

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Covenant so You know, what is so the question is that what is in relation to defining terms?

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How do people within the Hebrew? roots movement view the New Covenant And just like what exactly is cut the renewal of the

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Covenant Just like how do they kind of view like where we are now in relation to the

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Old Testament in the New Testament? It does seem to be very blurred on where one actually does stand

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Yeah, so They yeah, there's definitely a big difference a lot of differences within the movement as far as what exactly is the

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New Covenant and A lot of them will point out. I'm going to just bring up the passage here

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Jeremiah 31 Where it talks about the New Covenant and it prophesies the coming

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New Covenant one of the things they will point to in in that text in Verse in verse 31

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It says behold days are coming declares the Lord when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of judah and so they'll say

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Look, this is a covenant with The house of israel and the house of judah. This isn't a covenant with the gentiles

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This isn't a covenant with all the churches all the world. This is a covenant with israel and They'll use that to to try to say that it's therefore not what christians generally say it is and the the hard part with this one is that You know and and I would recommend if if you you want to hear a fuller discussion of it

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I I did a three -part thing on my on my youtube channel about it because it's It's pretty in -depth when you get to comparing and distinguishing the covenants but the number the a big way like I mentioned before that they

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Flatten things out as they will they'll take this word new for new covenant and try to say that it means renewed um, but it it it only

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It's it's interesting because it's it's the same Spelling in hebrew. Uh, the word is for new and the word for renewed are kind of the same

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But when it's used as a as an adjective as it is here It always it pretty much always means new and and you look at the other occurrences

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It means new. Um Maybe there's a few that you can kind of think of it as renewed, but it's it's very hard Um when it's used as a verb it means to renew but that's not what we have in this text, but anyway, they

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That's one One tactic is just to say. Oh god. Jesus is just renewing the torah

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And he's calling his people back to the torah. That's that's what it is Um, but that's not the only way that they do it another will try to Another way is to try to push back

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The inauguration of the new covenant push it into the future and say that it hasn't actually we're not in the new covenant yet um, and they will point to uh within this this text they'll point to the part where it says, um

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You know, they will not teach again each man his neighbor and each man his brother saying know the lord and see

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There's no need of teaching in the new covenant. Obviously we need teaching now, so we're not in the new covenant but You know to that I would say well

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It's specific teaching that it's saying there is is if you're in the new covenant You don't need to be taught to know the lord and that is different from the old covenant because under under the mosaic covenant

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It was a it was made with a group a physical group of people You know instituting them as a nation

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And not all of them knew the lord it was it wasn't about your relationship with the lord necessarily Whether you were in that covenant and and subject to its its terms and commandments

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The new covenant is different than that in the new covenant God's law is in our heart as it says and no one needs to teach his brother to to know the lord because we're

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We all know the lord everyone who's actually in the new covenant knows the lord and um

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So that's that's sort of my response, but they'll point to a lot of other things that talk about You know just the promises of the new covenant that aren't realized yet Um of just you know peace and and things like that over the whole world and they'll kind of try to push it back and then some of them one one uh teacher

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I heard tried to Argue that the distinguishing of old and new covenant is is not so much a distinguishing of One particular covenant with another covenant, but rather how you approach

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The covenant is that if you do you approach it the old way As in keeping commandments is what makes you right with god or the new way, which is by faith but really it's all one one covenant and it it can get kind of hard to understand but but yeah, there's with the covenants, that's another one that there's it's you have to do something with the new covenant because if the new covenant clearly says that um

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You know, I will forgive their sins that that this is what puts us in the new covenant And then when the new covenant is is full more fully

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Described and taught on in the book of hebrews It means the end of the mosaic covenant and and that That's the part that they can't really abide quick question for you.

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So with with regards to this, uh Renewal of the covenant or like a promise of the new covenant coming in the future.

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How does that change the gospel? For them then you would you would assume that the gospel would essentially change as well

27:55

It does it does. Um And again, this is not universal either.

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Um, there are those who who preach the biblical gospel that you know that jesus

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You know, he lived perfect life. He died. He rose again. He seated the right hand of the father and we

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You know by believing in him We have we have faith in god we we become we're made right with god

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And and that so that they there's definitely Those who teach that but because yeah because of the different views on the new covenant

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That often does change things with regard to the gospel or just the commitment to the law is so great that they want to to read things a different way and you know one of the

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One of the ways i've i've heard it read is that they said well Yes, the the gospel is a good news but it's the gospel was preached to abraham and therefore the it was in the old testament and therefore

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You know, the gospel is the law and faith is the same as faithfulness, which is keeping the law and so There's there are some who will say yeah if you're if if you believe the gospel

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What that means is you keep the law and this is a it's a difficult theological point because again, you

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You can't assume what someone believes because there's some who you know, we would say I would say that even though I disagree on Certain commandments how we're how we relate to those commandments and whether we are supposed to do them the same way as ancient israel did

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I also believe that if we believe if we have faith Then we're going to obey christ, you know

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Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments if we're going to if we really love jesus, we're going to obey him so so someone who even though I believe we're

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Saved by grace through faith alone. There's no You know, there's no uh works involved in salvation

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Salvation is a is a whole You know spiritual change and it's being brought into spiritual life

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It changes a person to where they now want to obey god And so we we obey god and if someone's not doing that if someone's just continuing to live a life of sin

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Then that gives us good reason to doubt, you know. Oh, does this person really know god? and so This is where you have to be careful because a lot of i've had a lot of folks in the movement say to me

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Well, what about james what about you know all these these things about works Yeah, I say

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I I do believe that we're supposed to obey you you're You know, i'm not saying. Oh, yeah, you don't have to do what god says but the the

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What does happen is that some will say? literally Faith and works come together to bring about salvation

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And some will say oh no, it's all about faith, but we redefine faith as keeping the law so there's

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There are all these you can't just assume it's it's like a different language, you know, you can't just do the language definition

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Yeah, there's a language barrier sometimes. Yeah, and so you you have to and and a lot of them are being taught

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That christians are lawless because we don't keep the levitical feasts and we don't eat kosher and things like that So we totally disregard god's commandments

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And don't believe you have to do and because we believe in sola fide Well, you don't have to obey god at all

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And you know just I mean read the book of hebrews That's what I believe, you know, somebody says they believe and then they're going out, you know doing whatever

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It's like that's that you don't need to To think that that person knows god um

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But but yeah, it's it's it comes down to what it you know It is a great question to ask, you know

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What is the gospel exactly if you're talking to somebody because there is a lot of confusion on it

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Okay. Yeah, and this is interesting andrew too that you know member of pastor trey said when we did our our one

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Series in the church of christ that got some attention here and there is that sometimes the closer

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You get to orthodoxy In regards to things on some level that are cultish it gets more

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Um, it gets more difficult to decipher or even sometimes the The the intensity behind the conversation gets more intense versus when you're when you're dealing something completely outside the camp like mormonism or or scientology or Or just one of those definitive cults because that that's there's a lot of very specifics

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Um that are there but it seems here that again, we're probably dealing in many cases even your conversation

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You're probably talking with someone who's a genuine christian who wants to do what is pleasing to god but again terms get

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Gets muddled and it seems to me. It's almost like this very Like you're trying to just reach you're going through like a like in here

33:03

We have like the dust storms that come here in arizona where all of a sudden the giant dust storm and it's hard you want to pull to the side of the road because you can't

33:10

See ahead. Otherwise, you're just trying to merge what you assume is the road on where where you go off This whole thing though and you can give me your thought both you can give me your thoughts it just it seems to be very very muddy between Like what is what is actual faith?

33:26

Uh, what entails works and they're almost sort of redefining faith. They're not sure what it is and also i'm just curious too just in your conversations with people who are in the hebrew roots movement, do they see kind of a

33:39

A spirit of freedom or or is it kind of it seems to me it would just be This sort of observance that makes them distinct from everyone else um

33:50

It seems to me It would just it would be a burden um, you know just Wanting to make sure that i'm keeping all these things, especially even

33:59

You know given if one wants to go to james chapter two as a proof text to try and mix in works

34:06

I mean best case scenario you're going to have a huge Misunderstanding as if I need to continue to do

34:14

Versus you know or trying to do these things to keep away my sins when rather than focusing in on the sin bearer again, i'm

34:21

I'm, just doing my best to make sense of what i'm hearing But it does seem as a whole that the water seems very very muddied, uh for someone who's trying to observe it

34:32

From their point of view. Uh, what do you guys think? Yeah, i'll go i'll go first.

34:40

So what what i'm thinking, uh, essentially is like through the lens of like orthodox biblical christianity and in forms of the gospel of being justified declared righteous before god through The blood of christ, you know, um as a orthodox christian

34:55

I would say that I am free in christ to actually observe the feasts if I want to Right, but that doesn't justify me that doesn't declare me righteous

35:05

Which also means this that I don't need To do the things that christ perfectly fulfilled of the training wheels in the old testament that were

35:14

Speaking about the coming of the messiah, right? Like I feast every single day now through the holy spirit

35:20

On my my salvation, you know what I mean? um, whereas it seems like the the danger in the trap which again

35:28

We're not gonna throw everyone in the hebrews movement that they they believe in the same thing We know there's so many differences, but the biggest trap is going from hey

35:37

You have the freedom to observe these feasts if you want to to now you need To do these things right and I would say that's very scary because that's a big yoke

35:47

It's a big burden and that gives you no assurance of your salvation because it's no longer in christ

35:52

Who actually completed all of these things perfectly for us on our behalf and literally died on the cross for us, right?

35:59

It's your assurance now is on your success in your keeping in your obedience because if it's not there

36:06

Then you're not truly a believer or in the faith because you're not doing x y and z and like we know in galatians

36:13

It says that we have died to the law. Why would we try to put in place something that has gone away?

36:19

You know, why would we try to bring it back? Right. We have died with christ It's no longer I who live but christ who lives within me and I obey god by faith

36:28

In jesus christ if if that makes sense if you want to piggyback off of me there Uh andrew in terms of uh what i'm talking about feel free brother.

36:36

That's just what i'm thinking Yeah, and and that's kind of what a lot of folks, you know will will look at when they when they first encounter this movement and one of the things that i've really tried to do is make sure when i'm

36:55

Addressing what what they believe that i'm not saying something That could be turned right back around on on what

37:02

I believe and you know, it's it's inconsistency is Is the mark of a failed argument?

37:09

So if I just if I say something like well Jesus died and he he he took all all that on himself and and we say well

37:18

He took the law on himself so we don't have to keep the law then You know the the retort is is very quickly

37:25

Oh, so you think you can murder you think you can commit adultery because jesus took the law on himself, right?

37:31

and what it what it comes down to is again, I think an area where the church has has really uh failed to to have robust teaching on and that is

37:43

How do we know? How do we know that some laws are training wheels like you mentioned that some laws?

37:50

Are only for the purpose of You know distinguishing israel and pointing to christ and that once christ

37:58

Fulfilled them and once you know when he died on the cross that that they actually go Or maybe go away is is too strong a word or but they at least change and that we don't

38:08

We don't approach them the same way. That's that's the language. I I tend to use because I think that um, you know

38:16

To take one example that I think we have some really good scripture that discusses is the sabbath that I I think that We still as christians even if we do not believe

38:27

You know that you know, the seventh day of the week is the day that we're supposed to rest and that's how we keep sabbath

38:34

That we are still supposed to keep the sabbath, but in a new covenant way and that new covenant

38:40

You know, how do we know what that is? Well, jesus told us jesus said come to me you are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest

38:48

It's no longer a day. We rest. It's jesus who gives us rest and in hebrews, uh chapter four it says that you know it talks about the rest of god and how really

39:02

He and and the author keeps reiterating, you know today do not disobey do not

39:08

You know lack faith all of that and he's citing over and over again psalm 95 I believe and he

39:14

He keeps saying all this stuff about rest and how they didn't enter into rest because they didn't believe And he says we who believe have entered into rest

39:24

And and you know a jew hears that and they think wait a minute, you know, what about the sabbath?

39:29

You know, what about the seventh day and the author hebrews knows that that's what he's saying because he says someone you know

39:34

You'll say or someone will say I think or it's written somewhere. I think he's how he puts it It said somewhere about the seventh day

39:42

And I tell you Today is is the day do not do not uh fall away.

39:48

So He he says he takes the seventh day and he says Today, it's today

39:54

Faith is is what gives us the true sabbath, which is rest in christ. That's what the sabbath always pointed to So when someone if someone asks me do do you keep the sabbath?

40:03

Well, yes every day I keep the sabbath, you know, not just on the seventh day um, but I do it in in a way that is informed by christ and And I think that there's a lot of ways that that many of the feasts um

40:19

Because of the way they point to christ we we approach them differently. We can't approach any of the feasts the same way

40:25

Every feast frankly including the sabbath though not for individuals every feast has sacrifices in the temple

40:32

So no one today in the hebrews movement is Observing the levitical feasts the way that they were presented because they all involve set, you know animal sacrifices so The the idea is and this is where I think we're when we're talking about Works and and the law and how we how we relate to it

40:54

That yes christ died and and what they would say is died He died to take on the curse of the law to to take away the penalty

41:02

But that doesn't mean that we can just go out and break it right and I would say I would hardly agree

41:08

Yes, it doesn't mean we can go out and break it But it does change Some laws because some laws didn't have were not eternal moral laws some laws really did originate when god gave them to moses at mount sinai and and They had a specific purpose and you can read this in the torah itself

41:32

God god with these laws. He says i've given you these laws because you are you know, and i'm paraphrasing but you're unique I brought you out of egypt.

41:41

You're not the other nations. I'm yahweh your god. You are my people That's that's why i'm giving you these these laws

41:48

And so the question is well if that's why god gave them for example the dietary laws

41:54

Then it it doesn't work if you say the dietary laws were for all the nations They were they were everyone's supposed to keep the dietary laws the egyptians the assyrians all of them were supposed to do that Well, then how would it make israel different?

42:08

How would it? Denote this special relationship that god was was establishing with israel.

42:13

It wouldn't and so those laws are Specifically for that and then when we get to the new new testament

42:22

We see how those are treated in light of of the work of christ

42:27

Whereas other laws are not treated the same way, you know other laws like You know that are truly moral like just regarding theft and murder and adultery and things like that worshiping other gods

42:39

They're they're carried over as is no change because not because this part of the law of moses you know

42:49

Continues and the other parts didn't know because these laws Predate the law of moses.

42:55

These laws are part of who god is And therefore they've always been

43:00

Wrong, you can read genesis adultery was wrong in genesis before anyone ever said in the text.

43:06

You shall not commit adultery and so These laws go back all the way to the beginning, but not all the laws do that And so if we actually read

43:17

The the torah and and understand it in its own light we can see these distinctions between moral and ceremonial

43:22

They're there even if they're not using the the labels Okay, and like how do they deal and you mentioned this too as far as just some things to cover here real quickly again

43:32

This is just a general overview and i'm really i'm looking forward to the feedback here uh, given given, you know, the pulse of of the marketplace of ideas in regards to our audience in relation to this topic, but um in regards to specifically sacrifices

43:46

Um are you put in point? They are a point of internal disagreement within the hebrew roots um, you mentioned earlier sometimes its relation in the eschatology some people see

43:57

You know and even people who aren't involved in the hebrews movements. There's people who are uh pre -millennial dispensational or or kind of fall into that camp who believe there's going to be a

44:06

Millennial reign and the sacrificial system is going to be reinstituted. So apparently from what you're at least

44:13

From the summary that you put in that that isn't an area of assumption Oh, then the hebrew is kind of you know, it's kind of mixed bag of like who holds to what but also um, some people believe that these have truly changed, uh due to the coming of christ, but Uh, these are the only these are the really the only things that have changed so they're kind of picking and choosing between which covenants are applicable like sacrifices, but now these specific dietary laws or Or these areas are they like are are in there's just different picking and choosing between particular categories.

44:48

So Can you just from what you've studied? Can you expand on that at all between how they like what's their methodology for?

44:55

differentiating between What's practical and what's not in this category? Yeah, um, so when it comes to sacrifices

45:04

There's yeah, it's definitely a point of disagreement many And I would say probably the majority just based on my own experience

45:14

Do believe that the sacrifices? are Still in effect just like everything else, but they're not you know currently

45:24

Doable not in a lawful way according to the text Uh that you can't because there's no tabernacle.

45:30

There's no temple uh, there's no Levitical priesthood in place uh at this time of You know, so so we just we just can't do it.

45:41

We it's kind of like when when israel was in exile They couldn't do the sacrificial stuff at the temple any, you know while they were in exile.

45:49

And so they they see us in in as a comparable position, so that's in a way it's a more that's the more

45:58

Consistent view if you believe all all of the torah is still binding You believe you have to believe the sacrificial system is still binding

46:05

The other side will say no jesus really did In in his sacrifice and and work as as our high priest.

46:14

He really did finish sacrifices And the reason

46:19

I think that there's this disagreement is because of the book of hebrews hebrews talks a lot about The the difference between the work of the the priests in the temple and jesus work as high priest the work

46:33

You know those sacrifices that were given over and over Jesus once for all sacrifice. There's this dichotomy presented throughout pretty much the whole book and so That that language is just so clear that a lot of them will say actually

46:50

Yeah, the the sacrificial system of the temple Is actually finished that part

46:57

Was was finished with christ and so they I when I look at that I say well they do have Sort of a principled reason for saying that it's not

47:05

I wouldn't characterize it as picking and choosing, you know Just what they like what they don't like It's that they would say

47:12

And and I think both sides of that argument the ones that say that that they're still binding But we just can't do them and those who say they're not binding

47:19

Both sides of the argument say we can't do them now and and we wouldn't do them now Um, you shouldn't just do it in your backyard though There are those who do but um

47:30

They're the the folks that say that you that they're no longer binding they it's not a

47:39

I think it's an inconsistent position because Then they they lose a lot of the texts that they they love to appeal to about how the law you know is

47:50

Is still in effect because it's just saying it's not talking about It's not differentiating between the sacrificial system.

47:57

They they like, you know, matthew 5 17 and 18 Do you not think I came to abolish the law the prophets?

48:03

I didn't come to abolish but to fulfill and then 18 where it says not one, you know Mark, you know mere stroke of the pen not one little letter will will pass away from the law till it's all accomplished they like to use those texts, but if they if you say the sacrificial system is done, well, you've you've

48:22

You've disqualified yourself from using those texts to to say that the law is still binding. You'll have to go somewhere else but So there's those those folks

48:32

I think I mean they're closer to the truth um, they they've they've They've acknowledged that something changed with christ

48:39

And so I think that that position is a little closer to the truth it it it takes hebrews seriously um, the other position says well

48:49

Yeah, there's going to be a future millennial reign um, and they they use

48:55

You know, they they point to some passages in the prophets that talk about, you know sacrifices and things like that To say that that in the future god's going to reinstitute them and they're still going to happen

49:08

And there's there's problems there too because of course If if that sacrifice is is still in effect, you know, then we have issues with the

49:17

How does that relate to to jesus sacrifice? Yeah. No, that's really good And you can let me know what thoughts you have on this

49:23

But I think one of the areas here and why we're trying to approach the subject this way is because this is really a fine line between Really for the most part that are just in -house conversations about you know the relations of what you should and shouldn't do on the sabbath or or any any really

49:41

Really in many ways are just internal in -house conversations I mean a lot of there's a lot of ways of everything we've discussed can be in that category, but it's complicated because again, it's slightly in the field of of how of our area of of research and and and what we what we cover because It is this level, uh, very subtly of Have and have nots in regards to my special knowledge of of the torah

50:11

Um, so yeah, this is definitely and again, we want you all to hopefully, you know Give us your feedback on our approach to this and that might formulate because I can tell you too

50:21

We are going to do some follow -ups here. Just given the audience a response just our initial post. We're definitely going to do that Um just one other question too

50:29

Just in regards to I think we mentioned it slightly in passing but specifically in regards to how they name god

50:36

Um, you know specifically whether it's yeshua or sometimes they do like yashua or they just give their their specific titles um, they that tends to be a very

50:48

I I mean even our comments on our facebook page There's a couple people talking about just the encounters that They had when they're out doing ministry, for example at an abortion mill and someone

50:57

Was alongside of them and you know, here they are trying to stop babies being murdered and they couldn't just agree to disagree

51:05

Okay, we all just for you. It's yeshua for me. It's jesus. Okay, can we just We got something more important a bigger fish to fry and again

51:13

This is not indicative of everyone but it does in this particular instance It just seemed to be something that this person's friend would not let go like it has

51:22

Very black and white it has to be this way. So like what's the Like what like where what's the underlying root of where that comes from?

51:31

And why is that such a big pinnacle point for so many of of the different groups within uh, the hebrews movement?

51:40

Well, I I think it You can kind of see if you're if you're

51:47

Looking at or thinking about it. You can kind of see how The sacred name stuff or the the going back to the hebrew names

51:55

Kind of comes from a different Different stream of thought than just we should keep the torah uh, because it's

52:04

It's kind of separate. There's no commandment in the torah that says you shall pronounce my name thus and such, you know, it's

52:12

It's a little it's a little different. So There there's a there's a lot of variety and in here too some people

52:19

Again, it's just a preference. They just would rather say you know the the older hebrew name of of someone than than what's been kind of Adapted through different languages up to the present day

52:32

All the way to those who make it a matter of salvation, you know, if you if you're praying to jesus

52:39

There there is an argument among many that that jesus means hail zeus

52:47

And That it's based on that Um, I looked up the greek The the name the original greek of yesus and and zeus have one letter in common actually or maybe two um, it's it's not they're not even etymologically not even close but uh, you know, there's there's this idea that um,

53:10

That you're praying to the wrong god, you know, if you don't use the right and proper name and therefore you're that's you know,

53:18

I Just you know, look up, you know the look up jesus and and mark of the beast like and there's there's plenty out there that say that if you worship jesus you are you you're

53:32

Taken that he's the beast of revelation and and you're not worshiping the true god. So Yeah, so there's and there's that Extreme end and then the the fact that there's disagreements about how these names, you know are supposed to be pronounced uh has led to obviously divisions within where some people say well you say yeshua and you say yahushua and so These guys can't get together and and and uh

54:02

I think When I look at it it I think it all stems though from the same sort of mindset

54:09

The mindset which isn't so much. What does the torah say? the mindset is

54:16

What you know, how have we in history? lost the original

54:23

You know fill in the blank and therefore The the torah is part of that.

54:29

Oh, we should go back to keeping, you know, these these particular commandments and We should go back back to pronouncing names the way they were originally pronounced um, and so they'll they'll say, you know, the hebrew names for For these different people.

54:45

I think it's interesting though. I I haven't they like to do with a lot of characters in the bible

54:50

I haven't heard anyone try to tell me who you know, the original hebrew pronunciation of luke yet um luke being a gentile and So that was probably you know,

55:01

I mean it was I think it was like lucas or whatever it was in greek, but you know nobody is like oh, you know, this is the original hebrew of of his name, but um, i'm sure someone out there has has attempted to do that, but yeah,

55:15

I think it comes from a mindset of Let's try to recover the lost ancient

55:21

Whatever and so we're going to do that also by replacing how we pronounce names Mm -hmm

55:27

Definitely. I appreciate that andrew any thoughts you have on that any questions you have before we jump on the next topic? um

55:32

The only real thing i'm thinking about is like this is why it's so important to be like in a local Body with a good under shepherd a good pastor in that leadership not forsaking the assembly why the lord had put

55:45

Qualifications in place for his sheep to be looked after you know what I mean? Like that's why it is so important.

55:51

I think when you don't have that you can fall prey to so many so many things like Like even even paul was was telling, uh, the leaders of the churches.

56:01

He said there will be wolves, right? He said it this is he's like i'm gonna go i'm going here most likely going to go die

56:07

And you're never going to see me again But remember there will be wolves and they're going to be from within the body and they're going to try to Devour the sheep right like this is why it is so important to be part of a local assembly

56:18

Uh, because god has instituted it in place right in order to protect his sheep until we see him again

56:24

And I don't know. It's just so it just it rings me as being so important right now. I don't know That's just something I was thinking about Okay.

56:31

All right. Good. That's a great observation andrew. So, um, yeah, so I think as we uh wrap up here

56:37

I think this is sort of a a good Uh general overview again This is just one of those things too where we want to be careful and kind of this is just an introductory to the conversation that This for the most part, you know as a whole a lot of the issues within the hebrews movements is on on many levels

56:56

Should be in -house conversations that where people can agree to disagree, but it also is subtle It's very very close to orthodoxy.

57:04

And this is why I think you know, our audience, you know, we have people who are atheist and agnostic and different view people who listen in and enjoy our podcast, but you know people know that we are predominantly we're unequivocally viewing the world of the cults from a christian worldview and a christian perspective and so I think one of the reasons why this is such a big pulse in the marketplace of ideas is because it's so close in proximity to uh orthodox orthodox basic christianity

57:37

And you know it is You know, there are aspects that are concerning because if you can if you read the book of galatians specifically like paul was dealing with this exact thing and if you're going for example to believe that Jesus the christ atonement was basically enabled us to keep the torah um

57:57

You can post a lot of those red flag emojis or emoticons there, you know, that's a lot of Similarities my spidey sense would go off just given the concerns of what was going on in the church of galatia

58:09

So I I think this is level where we don't want to be black and white and throw out the baby with the bath water but just given

58:18

I would just say off the get -go and you can give us your feedback on this Uh, and you can let me know both andrews here is that it this does seem to be a complicated mixed bag

58:30

Of wolves and sheep with a lot of fogginess to differentiate between the two um, you know, there's people that you know, there's plenty of people

58:38

I know who are generally christian and and they can kind of get Uh, you know veered off a little bit and undercome be under a burden in the spirit of legalism

58:47

Um, not realizing the freedom that they have in christ But there are also because all you know man looks at the outward appearance the lord looks at the heart

58:56

There are people that the new testament warned about that are coming to assert The freedom that you have in christ that puts you back under a yoke and that's where No, we do need to have a conversation about these these particular topics because either way, uh, this is

59:15

Uh, we want to deal with grace and compassion But this movement as a whole just from what i'm seeing there's a lot of levels, uh within what we talked about That is very theologically dangerous and that's why

59:27

Here at cultus we are we are covering we are talking about it. There's a level of this appeal to uh, hidden knowledge

59:34

That my my special understanding My special knowing of the of the torah that no one else has and has been lost from the church

59:41

But now we're we're trying to recover it. I mean how many times have we heard that? with You you fill in the blank you take away the torah and fill in the blank that tends to be the sort of esoteric epistemological claim of the other groups that we deal with and so we are saying that Let let's have a conversation let's have a discussion come let us reason together, you know, we want to honor

01:00:07

We want to honor christ. We want to honor We want to honor the lord. Um, and even with a group even though I haven't really looked at psalm 119 ministries the concept behind behind psalm 119.

01:00:20

We should love The law of god the law of god is a blessing It says a lot of the law of lords is perfect reviving the soul.

01:00:27

That should be your attitude, but There it's very easy any sort of misuse of Any aspect of the full, uh council

01:00:37

Of god and just any aspect of systematic theology anything that's a distortion Can end up hurting people so there is also just an underlying concern that any sort of distortion of of having bad theology

01:00:51

That ends up hurting people and I can tell you just from the comments. We've seen there are a lot of people Who have come out of this movement?

01:00:58

Who were under a serious yoke? Of of spiritual oppression, uh and legalism and that's an area of concern too as we unravel we continue this conversation.

01:01:10

So Uh, yes, let's we invite you if you are part of the hebrew roots movement And you want to give a critique of what we brought up in this initial conversation, please reach out to us

01:01:20

Let's have a conversation and let's continue this. So, uh, those are just kind of my my thoughts here as we wrap up here

01:01:27

What are your guys's kind of final thoughts as we kind of just? Throw this out before you get ready to throw this out into the marketplace of ideas here

01:01:35

Brother, I think what you said was beautiful. I don't there's I don't think there's anything that I personally could add to that What what about you andrew were you thinking?

01:01:41

um, what I would probably want to stress at this stage of the conversation is that all we've really done at this point is outlined the

01:01:52

What just what is this movement about and what are the beliefs? and done very very little when it comes to Argumentation to exegesis of texts things like that.

01:02:04

And so I would I would say if you're if you're Disappointed at this point that oh, well, you know my chestnut argument for why

01:02:13

I believe You know where to keep the these particular laws in a certain way

01:02:19

Hasn't been addressed. Um, I would just say there's only so much Especially when the goal is just to kind of spark conversation.

01:02:26

There's only so much you can get into um, I do hope we have you know at another opportunity to That we do sit down and kind of go through some of the the favorite arguments, uh, both that they would present and that that From the christian perspective we would present to show

01:02:44

Why this is is an error? um but i'd also say yeah, if you have if you have a particular argument that you

01:02:53

Just think this is is hands down why I think we're to keep torah um

01:02:59

Definitely let us know if you're interested in other. Um You know going deeper going into a lot of that stuff

01:03:07

Like I said, I I have created a lot of content on my youtube channel beginning of wisdom and there's just There's a ton of stuff there as far as answering a lot of these questions

01:03:18

Um and answering a lot of the the arguments and if you don't see something there You know let these guys know let me know and would be would be absolutely glad to have a conversation about it

01:03:29

Awesome. So I appreciate you. Uh, I appreciate you wrapping things up and I think that's a perfect way to end it for now so if you enjoy this sort of General introductory overview.

01:03:39

I mean, this is the Big big this is like the google earth version of like the earth and then you you know, you zoom into Uh, you know a city a state a city and then a district

01:03:52

You know that that's kind of really that that's sort of a loose metaphor of what we're dealing with here So again, this is just a general general sky overview

01:04:00

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01:04:08

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01:04:17

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