The Free Speech Apocalypse Strikes Again with Darren Doane!

Non -rockabotas must stop! I don't want to rock the boat, I want to sink it! Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite?

We're being delusional. Delusional? Delusional is okay in your world view. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional.

You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your world view is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt.

Is he hung up on me? What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives.

Don't go into the world and make homies. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle neck.

That's a joke, pastor. When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

Proverbs 31, 8 through 9. Open your mouth for the mute, for the rights of all who are destitute.

Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and the needy. What is up, everyone?

Welcome back to another episode. Oh, sorry, that was louder than I anticipated. I'm not used to doing everything at once.

Welcome back to another episode of Apology Radio. With myself, Luke the Bear, and my awesome host over here, co -host

Joy the Girl. On Sheologians, we say, my beautiful co -host. Yeah, I know, and it almost came out.

That would have been weird. Because I hear it. That would have been strange. You're my beautiful co -host.

Thanks, I appreciate that. So Pastor Jeff is in Kauai right now helping our team.

There, helping our church plant there. And I'm actually heading there, what's today, Thursday?

Two days. So Isaac and I are going there on Saturday. We'll be there for two weeks. Helping as well.

So we won't have Apology Radio for a minute. Sorry. But, I'm excited for today's show.

We have our good friend, Darren Donan. I'll bring you in in a second, dude.

We love Darren. He may be our most tenured guest at this point. I think it might be between him and Merkle.

Merkle's been on a lot too. Yeah, because he comes down here. He's been, I would say, he's been on, like, physically all the show.

Probably. I have too, Joy, I have too, so just slow your roll.

You're right, you're right, you have. No, seriously, Joy. You know what,

Joy? I'm so sick of this, Joy. Every single time. Every single, you know what?

I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Will you forgive me? Yes. There's Darren, everyone.

Welcome Darren Donan to the show. Joy, I could not have done that without your last show on forgiveness, so just thank you.

Oh, I just saw a flash of you when you were talking, and earlier you said you looked European. Is that an espresso you're drinking and a baguette?

Oh, I've got to see this now. I've got to pull this up here. You look like the

CEO of a tech company, especially that little skinny can. It's like that girl they did that, like, thing on, the girl that, like, scammed everybody.

Oh, yeah. I'm forgetting her name, but she has a very low voice. Yeah, and it was a fake low voice too, remember?

Right. Well, she claims, she claims, you know, that it's true, but she's also a liar, so.

Well, that's the vibe I'm going for, Joy, so once we find out her name, we'll. I don't know why

I'm blanking on it, but I'll get, I'm going to look it up right now.

You look like the Sprockets. Remember it's Sprockets? Yes, that's how it started, because like, yeah, now we dance.

Welcome to Sprockets. And my head's, like, bigger because of the camera, so I feel like I'm a jib jab right now.

I feel like I'm actually my own jib jab. Elizabeth Holmes. It was Theranos.

That was her fake invention. It's almost. Man. Looking at the screen at the beginning, it's like, it's like we posted your face on the

John Cooper's body or something, or vice versa. Oh, man.

So. Best episode ever. Yeah. So, I love him, Darren. It's always a lot of fun.

So, the reason we wanted to have him on today is I noticed recently that his film, is that me getting feedback, or is that you?

It might have been me. It might have been Joy. Okay. I kept hearing myself delayed. I noticed recently on Facebook that your film,

The Free Speech Apocalypse, has been getting a lot of play, and it kept coming up in my feed. Not that it was actually playing because it got booted off of Amazon Prime, but people were talking about it, and there are some bootleg copies on YouTube I've seen that people have been playing.

Oh, cool. Yeah. So, I don't know if you knew that, but you might want to look into that.

But, yeah. So, I was like, hey, let's talk about this. I've seen it's been coming up, and in some ways, and I want you to talk about this, in some ways, the film may have been a little bit prophetic.

Obviously, you were just filming what was going on, but the way things are right now, it's like that film's come full circle almost.

So, before we talk about that, though, let me go ahead and I'll play the trailer for those that are not aware of the film that we're talking about, and then we'll discuss it.

Here we go. First of all,

Doug's got to be brave to go into that kind of thing. As a gay instructor, as an atheist.

I mean, I don't think we ever had a security plan, a security plan for Doug before.

It's an assertion by Rob Howard by claiming victimhood. Rebellion.

Women are inferior. Women are inferior. They deserve. They deserve.

Death or exile. We reject homophobia. We reject homophobia. We respect free speech.

This is hate speech. This is hate speech. Get out more campaigns. Get out more campaigns.

The charge is, you're a racist. Racist, sexist, anti -gay.

You're a sexist. Douglas Rossi, go away. And you're anti -gay. Racist, sexist, anti -gay.

Douglas Wilson, go away. Right. And it's stated in such a way as to rhyme.

Brad Avakian. How did he say it? The goal is not to shut a business down, but to rehabilitate them so they can operate within the confines of the law.

Now, feminists, they're kind of big crybabies. A lot of the people in the sacred progressive movement have not really thought these things through.

Look, this began when a handful of unelected judges decreed they knew better than the

American people. You had the forces. You had the people. You had what was necessary. It's just you didn't have the courage.

You didn't have the spine to stand up and say what's patently obvious.

What do you think they mean by racist? How do you think they have defined the term racist?

A racist is anyone who is winning an argument with a liberal.

Identify as black. Gay is the new black. Being true to our founding documents does not require us to agree on every contour of life.

This is not the first time I've run into the tolerance buzzsaw.

Can you believe it's been almost six years?

Was that my trailer or was that a short film? I mean, oh my goodness. It's like nine minutes?

I'm watching that so much has changed since then. I mean, Ted Cruz has a full on beard.

I've never seen you in a suit before other than there. And Chocolate Knox looked like he was 12.

A lot's changed. And you know what? Those are the most important takeaways.

I think that's good. You know what's funny is before it got taken off of Amazon, which everyone and by everyone,

I mean like four people. Yeah, I mean, you use that term like everyone's asking me why my movies not. It's like four people.

But the people that have asked if I'm, you know, was I upset that it got taken off? Like it was on for five years and then like six months ago it got taken off of Amazon.

I was just kind of like, no, that's cool. Whatever. I just it didn't even it didn't even faze me.

But about a year ago, I was flipping through Amazon Prime and it came up as a suggestion.

And I was like, oh, free speech apocalypse. I'm like, I made that. I should watch the trailer. And I was like, no,

I'm not gonna watch the trailer. I'll just I'll just watch the movie. I haven't seen it. I made it, but I really haven't seen it. You don't really see your own movie.

So I put it on and I got like 15 minutes into the movie and just turned it off. And I was like, how did anyone make it through this movie?

I was like, this is so intense. I was like, this is like I just imagine like I was.

It was like 10 o 'clock at night. We were looking for something to watch. I thought I just I was like, who who puts the songs like, yeah, so I'm going to spend the next 90 minutes of my life.

But like but when you're making something as an artist, like you're like you're so into it, you don't even think that way, you know.

Yeah. But I really was. I was like, this movie is so intense. I don't even know how

I made it because like watching it, I really I'm joking, but I'm serious. I'm joking with my tongue, but I'm serious in that I didn't even have the stomach five years later to watch it because it was so intense and infuriating.

And so I really was, I was like, I don't know how anyone made it through this. I remember we did a screening.

Some people were in town, some kind of semi -prominent thought leaders were in town here in Moscow and we played it in a movie theater for some people.

And when it was over, they they kind of came out and they said, yeah, I think that was the worst experience I've ever had.

Wow. And. But all that to say.

You were like, well, just wait for 2021. Yeah. Well, in a weird way,

I think there's actually I think there's more hope today than when and when and when when

I made the movie, because when I was making the movie, there was a there was a sense of I've got

Douglas Wilson as my as my main character. And you get to kind of go through him being somewhere.

He's communicating his thoughts and his views and his beliefs. People are screaming at him, yelling at him, hating him, you know, all this stuff.

And they're pulling quotes from things that he's written in books. They're putting that to say, you said this and you said that.

And, you know, it's right here. And and, you know, we're going to ban you or we're going to cancel you or we're gonna make sure your life's a living hell.

Like what? And I think there is a sense of watching and going like, well, as gnarly as this is, that's

Doug. And he's a pastor and he says things and he's got books and he's written things.

And there's a there's a little bit of a disconnect. But, you know, six years later, we are all

Douglas Wilson now. So you may not have written a book, but we've got your tweets.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. No kidding. Right. We know where you go to church now.

We know what you believe. We know who you voted for. We know what you like because we can go to your

Instagram and see that you liked something from this person or this organization. We now know who you are and we can use it against you.

But in doing that, it's such an overreach that I think people are just now realizing that you can't hide.

And, you know, and to use and to use the left and the progressives, you know, language. You know what?

We're all just going to have to, you know, just you do you. You're just going to have to be you and be like and just suck it up and be like, yeah, these are my views.

This is what I believe. And I think the country is split in half. But I think those are pretty good odds.

Like, just go find your half. That's all. I pause it now.

I mean, when you think about it, we've co -opted that language. Like now conservatives and Christians are coming out of the closet.

Yeah. No, you're right. You're right. I talked to somebody. I forget who was recently that they're new to our church.

And they went they went to IU and they were there during that time. They weren't at that event, but they've watched it.

And they're like, I know some of those students that were there. And I can't believe the way they were acting.

It was shameful. It's crazy. So it is crazy to watch.

But in a lot of ways, we saw all of that. And oh, and by the way, when

I first started making it, I actually was going to. I thought there was a point where I thought it was going to be a comedy.

Because I thought we could actually push all these ideas so far and make it a futuristic idea.

And the reason why I filmed Doug the way I filmed him was because I was still toying with that idea. And I thought that potentially if I went to kind of, again, almost like a, you know,

Mighty Wind or, you know, super, you know, kind of, you know, spinal tap type film kind of mockumentary.

It would kind of be like I was visiting Doug in jail. And I was sort of getting his side of the story.

And the idea was that we were going to try to push all these ideas in a world where, you know, you could self -identify as a unicorn and all these different things and all that.

But as we were making the movie, all these things were happening and it wasn't a joke anymore.

It actually wasn't funny anymore. And it was like, well, I guess this is where we're at. So it's actually a really interesting piece.

I do enjoy the film. I mean, I think there's, you know, I, again, I think it's actually a very, very, there's a lot going on in the movie.

It's tough to take in. You can't do everything in one project, you know, obviously.

But I think trying to make some connections with some of the philosophies and people,

I think there is some good information there. Unless you listen to James White. I think he gave it a C -. Oh yeah, that's right.

That's right. But you know what? James is really coming along these days. I think he should watch all my movies again.

And maybe he might see them through like a Post Mill lens now. I know. Speaking of coming out of the closet, he just had his coming out of the

Post Mill party a couple Sundays ago. We all saw that 10 years ago when he was quoting

Bonson. Are you saying he's going to become a Presbyterian next?

That's not going to happen. So I'm curious, what was Amazon's reasoning?

I mean, I can only imagine. But what was their reasoning for banning it from Amazon? You know,

I don't think of it as being that big of a deal, to be honest. You just get an email and it just says that you violated, you know, just like anything else, some sort of community standard, just stuff of that nature.

Which means that honestly could have been just one person. So I never take a martyr position.

I've never tried to hype it up. I mean, people do that on Etsy all the time.

That's my design. They stole it. And then that product gets taken down. You know what I mean? Like it's that easy to do stuff.

So I just thank the Lord that it got five and a half years on a platform with millions of views.

Did you email him back and say, isn't that ironic? Yeah. I wrote back.

I was like, by what standard? Oh! And it was like, it was gone. And they never got back to me.

Oh, man. So would you, I mean, obviously you wouldn't consider yourself a biblical prophet by any standard.

But would you consider this film somewhat prophetic? No, I would. Luke, I would. I would very much consider myself a biblical prophet.

My mistake. Yeah. I retract that statement. So would you consider your film prophetic then?

Clip that. Clip that. I am a prophet. Yeah, no. I got email. It's like those people that believe

Corinthians is like part of the canon. Oh, yeah. Right. Sorry.

I think so. I think, I mean, I mean, I mean, I think, I mean, I love watching those things.

You know, I mean, I, I used to think, you know, there's a point in your life where, you know, and Luke, we talk a lot about this and joy.

I never talked to you, but, um, I thought you talked to me all the time and you've been on the show so many times,

Darren. Yeah. No, exactly. Yeah. In that way. In that way. Are men allowed on your podcast?

Yeah. I was on once. All the time. Or twice. Well, Luke doesn't count. He's a big soft bear. Well, and Luke does the

Sheologian stream. Yeah. That's me at the beginning. Did you know that? So he's technically on every episode. It's true. I start off every episode.

Oh, okay. Oh, my bad. But, you know, you like with like music, like there's a point in your life with like music and movies and art, you think you're just kind of ahead of the culture, you know, oh, this band's so cool or this band's, you know, you think you have this, you know, you just kind of know where things are going.

And I think even at that time, that was still a carryover of like, trying to be really culturally, um, just aware that I was watching all these things happen.

Um, but again, by the time we were making the movie,

I felt like it was just so right on time that that that was kind of the end of me having any kind of prophetic powers of culture and what's happening.

And, um, but yeah, I was definitely looking at it, seeing what was happening and trying to figure out what's weird, though.

But when, I mean, it was even weirder is when I made that movie, the event that Doug spoke at was still a couple of years before that.

Oh, really? Okay, I gotcha. Yeah. So, I mean, I mean, Doug spoke, I think that event was 10 years ago or something or eight years ago.

Okay. So, so that's even weirder that that was happening. And, you know,

I remember all that footage was just sitting there. I was like, man, I just want to tell the story about all this. But I think that time period as well was kind of, for me, the end of thinking that documentaries even had any more power or what they could do, because now

I just think we now no one is no one is shocked by any of that stuff anymore.

We just put it right. We just put it that way. Right. So that doesn't you know, it just it doesn't shock anyone anymore.

And I mean, I can remember in like 1991, watching a show on Fox, the original

Fox, not Fox News, but the Fox Channel, like the Simpsons. Right. They had some like late night and they had like late night, like, you know, worst police standoffs or something.

And yeah. Right. And I remember I saw someone get shot. Like 1991,

I'd never seen someone get shot. Yeah. Like shot. Someone ran with like an

AK like that. All these hostages on the ground. And the guy ran across them because they were shooting through the window.

And he just he had like 10 hostages laying down. And the guy just ran across the. And I was

I was free. I was like I was like 19, 20 years old. I was freaked out for like a month.

Wow. Like freaked out. I just don't think people realize in 1990, there was nowhere to see someone die.

Yeah, that's true. Now it's just a few clicks away. Right.

I mean. And like up close, like I'm assuming the guy you saw was kind of far away and, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. It was a, you know, camera, someone video from the news. And like now that's just so normal.

And I mean, I could Google person hit by train right now and probably watch 100 people die. Right. And now people screaming, people being freaked out, people being, you know, you know.

Now it's just it doesn't faze us. And so I think the movie came out at a good time.

Yeah. But I think ultimately now it's just we're just so used to that.

Yeah. Yeah. That was like the beginning where you're starting to see some of that stuff and people getting away with saying crazy things.

And now it's that's almost tame. The stuff we're seeing now that's just said openly with no remorse or rebuke is that's tame, which is crazy.

So you so it's not like you went into that event thinking, I'm going to make a film out of this. You were there just recording the event.

Correct. And then afterwards, you're like, I need to tell this story. Well, actually, I was supposed to go.

I ended up not going. Oh, a whole. But a whole crew was out there. OK. And so I was going to go.

But a whole crew was was was already out there. And Daniel Fukushon and Dane Wilson and all those guys were there filming, capturing thing.

And they started sending me footage. That's kind of when you could actually first send video clips by text like this is happening.

And I was I was getting text like, oh, my goodness. Like, wait, what's happening? Like what?

Like, it was still so strange. And then obviously they released all those live.

It was on forever. And then by time I got I got up here to Moscow, Idaho, and I thought, you know,

I still wanted to do something again with Doug after collision. Do some sort of kind of follow up like with Doug.

Yeah. But I was going to be here in his hometown. And so I was like, you know, and again, if things were ramping up and everything that happened there seemed very relevant at the time.

So I was like, hey, let's just, you know, let's just tell this. Let's just tell the story.

So but yeah, it was it was happening. We sort of knew that it might get kind of crazy, but I don't think anyone thought it was going to be that crazy.

But again, I mean, think about how. On exciting.

That is now because that's just normal now, like we forget. So the last couple of years,

I mean. All the people that tried to speak, whether it's Ben Shapiro or whether it was

Milo or remember Milo, remember Milo was a person. Yeah. Milo was a person.

Right. It was really, you know, as much as you can always go back, back, back, back, back, OK, you have to find these moments of like, hey, when when did something start?

You know what I mean? And. Milo Milo to me was kind of the first cancel.

Mm hmm. Like, as we know, cancel culture now. It was

Milo. You know, and. Which is funny, because he he got canceled for being like too liberal.

Right. Yes. Which is funny to me. That's that's what that's why it's very intriguing, because the the categories started changing.

Right. I don't think I don't think we really understood how deep and how embedded a lot of these worldviews were in the culture, because you really couldn't get away from it.

And then it's to a point now to where you really have to ask yourself, how does

Joe Rogan even still have a show? You know, like that's, you know, like he's got to go like at some point.

Rogan is going to have to go. Yeah. But right. Yeah, he's an interesting one,

I guess. Maybe in some way he sort of represents people think of him as sort of like a like a in between, like he kind of talks to everyone and listens to everyone and ask questions of everyone.

So he's seen as this like neutral force in the culture.

But it's that's a very strange most. I mean, yeah, it's it's pretty amazing. I think he's the canary in in the mine for me.

I just I look to see when does Rogan get canceled. Right.

You know, like that's, you know, like even just just I think it was just yesterday I was just thinking, like,

I mean, we we all know, I mean, there's there's things that that we're living in that we don't really

I don't think understand we're living in because of covid. So it's like we we really haven't had time to take in because you can't go anywhere and be with people publicly in event centers.

But there is no more stand up. Right. Right. We don't think about that because we've been in covid now for a year.

And so but who's going to I mean, there is no there's no more stand up like and stand up comics when we do get back are going to be like, will you please book me in some weird

Christian college town? Because that's the only people has a sense of humor left. And they will come and see me in public.

I recently tried to watch a comedy special by what's the what's the guy's he's a little guy, little short guy.

The black guy. Yeah, I don't know. No, I'm sorry. He's I can't remember his name.

I don't know what's wrong with me because I really honestly I mean, he's short.

It's undeniable. You projected your but he did. He did his he recorded his special in his home somewhere, which he has a large beautiful home so that it can accommodate a certain amount of people.

But it was just uncomfortable because everyone was wearing masks and like distanced. And when people laughed, it was like muffled from behind.

Yeah. And you like when the camera panned onto them, you could just see their eyes like kind of squinting.

But you can't see their mouths. I don't know. It was just very weird. Are you thinking of Kevin Hart? Yes, I am.

Yep, that's who it is. That was that was pretty woke of you the way you described that.

Easy. What do you mean? Yeah. I maybe

I was just seem to big because he's so little. It was like watching.

I really don't. Sometimes Kevin in Wonderland, the way that I don't the way

I just described him does not have anything to do with how I feel about him as a cookie.

My friends are many of my friends are very short. That's all

I have to say. I just like that. You saw no color in describing that. There was a guy and he was short.

Who's the short comedian? I mean, I don't know. It's like less than short.

Oh, gosh. Gallagher. Right. But you're right.

It's all dead. It's like it's so lifeless. And you're right. And people laughing with masks on muffled.

Right. But you can't even tell jokes anymore. And like liberal when you have liberal comedians, they've made a living by pushing the envelope.

That's what they do. Right. They they go after culture. You can't go after anything anymore.

And we've known that for a while. But my point was that I don't think we really know that when everything gets back, who who's going to be the audience?

And yeah, I and I could see now like comedians. And I think this could go across multiple industries.

Much like when I work with Christopher Hitchens on Collision, when he wrote that book, he told his agent, don't book me in any liberal towns.

I really want to go Christian. Yeah. He said, don't don't book me at Newberry to talk about. He's like, only book me in Christian communities, on Christian radio shows,

Christian television shows. I only I want to go into the opposition. Wow. OK, I think, though, we're going to see a form of that now with when everything opens back up.

These comedians are going to be like, don't send me to a liberal town, like send me to all the counties where I know it's

Republican Christians who actually will let me talk and make fun of things. Yeah, no, that's a great point.

Yeah. And even like even meeting in general, you know, like who's the people that are not afraid to go to watch a movie or go to the store and not wear masks?

And it's us weirdo Christians. Right. So like everyone else is afraid to gather together.

So, yeah, we'll come. We'll we'll we'll watch it. Come over here. Yeah, that's crazy. That's a good thought.

And I think this this kind of comes back to, you know, you know, that's kind of a

Doug Wilson ism when he talks about, you know, something like Halloween. You know, he's saying have the lights on, have the biggest party going on at your place and be handing out just just the biggest bars of candy.

Right. You know, I think post covid. I think Christians with a backbone are going to have an opportunity to be throwing the biggest and best parties.

Yeah. Which, again, is so ironic. Yeah. Like we are now we we're the partiers.

We're the wild ones. We're the ones who are all about danger. Like we're like not wearing a mask is now the equivalent of like stage diving.

You might hurt yourself. Like that's like that's who we are now. Like as a people.

Right. And all the left democratic punk rock or pseudo, you know, wannabe punk rockers are like, you could get hurt.

Stop it. You could get hurt. Like everything's about you. No, no. You could really get hurt.

Like, what do you mean? Now you yeah, you you might get sick. And it's like this is this is their world now.

And we just woke up one day. And for those of us that have a punk rock past, for those of us that have a completely illicit past of whether it's selling drugs or doing wrong things or illegal things or trying to play under the system like we woke up one day and we're like,

I feel like I'm home. Like this is like like you mean

I get to do acts of defiance every single day when I like I don't have to wear like an

F .U. you know, like T -shirt or like a swing and utters patch on my leg, you know, or an

Operation Ivy like, you know. Yeah. Like I actually just don't have to wear a mask, you know, and and not even have to explain.

I walked in. I walked into a store and. I walked into a tire store and I walked right in.

There was an older lady about 15 feet in front of me and she turns around right away.

She's she's got a mask on. She turns right away and she goes, you can put a mask on right there. And there was a little stand.

There was a box of masks, right? Yeah. And I said, OK, thank you. And she looked at me and she goes, you could put your mask on right now, young man.

I said, OK, thank you. And then she turns around and she's talking to the person at the counter.

She goes, are you going to let this happen? Because you have signs everywhere about masks and social distancing and he's not wearing one.

She goes and I look around. There's four other people in here not wearing masks. So then I kind of look over to see, you know, who my tribe is.

And I kind of look over and I see someone who I know pretty well and his wife. And they're kind of standing there.

And then there's this other dude kind of to the left of me sitting at a table. And he looks up like, how do

I get involved in this? Because he's waiting for his tires to get done. He kind of just like took his shirt and kind of covered his mouth.

Like, just leave me out of this, you know. And and then and then she looks back at me and says, put your mask on.

I said, OK, thank you. And she goes. Is OK, thank you. The only thing you know how to say.

I said, well, I can think of another word to put in front of you. And she just looked at me and then

I just smiled. And I said, OK, thank you. No, I think

I think you're right. That's good. I didn't mean it. I can't believe

I'm like brawling with like it looked like a 75 year old woman. Right.

Right. Yeah, I know. I was eventually I'm like, I'm like, like, this is my act of defiance.

Yeah, I've already had COVID. I've already had COVID. I had the antibodies, which is nobody's business.

Right. Right. Right. I've got the paperwork that I've got the antibodies. Right. You know,

I'm 15 feet away from her. Right. And like, this is what we're like.

This is the act of defiance now. Yeah. And it's like, whoa, this is crazy.

So she leaves eventually. She gets her thing done. She leaves. And as soon as she leaves, I'm next in line. And the woman behind the plexiglass with a mask on, then takes her mask down and goes next and just smiles.

That's funny. That's funny. I was at the store the other day and I had I wasn't wearing a mask. And there was a lady

I was looking at something. She was like, she kind of walked up and was like, I like your face. And I was like, that's a weird thing to say.

And I looked at her. She wasn't wearing a mask. Oh, thank you. I like your face as well. It's great to see it. So that's the new punk rock thing to say.

But you're you're right. Because, you know, when and I and I hate to. I don't want to like overuse this whole term.

Like that's so punk rock. Cause I feel like it's getting overused now, but like, you're right. Like, I don't know.

I mean, I'm with you. I get it. But you know what? I don't think we're leaning into it enough. Like this is like, this is wild, man.

No, I hear you. Yeah. I hear you. Cause like, you know, back in the eighties, late seventies, eighties, you know, like when punk rock was like, it's, it's prime.

Right. That was, you were, you were going against like Christian values.

Right. The Christian worldview. And now like, if you are like for the Christian worldview.

In corporate America, go to your job, work in nine to five, move in the suburbs.

You had a big old Mohawk that said, F you. Right. Culture. Right. Like that's what they were saying.

My clothes are ripped. I don't know. My clothes don't even stay together. We all have together a safety pins.

Right. Yeah. Right. Like that. Been there. So, so if you don't under, but the reason why

I think it's still worth identifying with is because that's how we are seen now.

Yeah. Right. No, you're right. That's such a great thing. It's a big pink

Mohawk and a big frontal, you know, or it's the early nineties and it's Perry Farrell with the, with green dreads and a big old bull nose, you know, front, whatever that piercing is to the front of the nose, you know what

I mean? Like that's the one that joy has. You know, a septum piercing.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like now, if you like, that's what the, our

Bible, it's like the, the, the, the big a, the anarchists. So a, like that's their

Bible. You know, that's, I had, that's such a great way to think about that. Yeah. And I think that it's going to be interesting because I think we're already starting to see it.

You know, I know a lot of people are freaking out about how, how left the liberal agenda has gotten and how far away from, you know,

Christian values and stuff. But at some point, and I think we're already starting to see it at some point, it's going to start breaking down because that sort of absurdity can only last for so long before they start turning on one another.

You know, because one of the a hundred genders, you know, is offended at one of the other a hundred genders because they're not getting enough street cred or something.

You know, like it's, we're starting to see it. And at some point, like, it's almost like God is like, you know, it's totally

Romans one. It's almost like God's like, okay, here you go do it. And it's not going to work.

You know, it's going to collapse because it's absurd and there's no objective standard, you know, and then us punk rock

Christians are just kind of like doing our thing, being faithful, trusting in God. And at some point we're going to be the last one standing, you know?

And I think, I think that's what we're seeing, to be honest. I think that's part of God's judgment on our nation is just him cleansing, cleansing, you know, his church.

It's not about America. It's about his church. He's cleansing his kingdom and his church of all the absurdity.

Well, and I won't do it justice because it's, I think it's a deeper, more thoughtful conversation, but the framework that I work out of is still, there's nothing the world's doing that the church wasn't already doing.

So I'm kind of in that camp, you know what I mean? And the plays that the culture is running right now, it's just the plays that big evangelicalism ran for the last 30, 40 years.

And so it's stupid and it doesn't make any sense. And so the whole seeker sensitive movement and how do we communicate things are all kind of, they're just doing bad evangelical marketing right now, kind of combined with like 80s and early 90s, like Operation Rescue stuff where you could go out and be at abortion clinics and talking with people, or you could do sit -ins and get arrested, right?

There's two camps there, right? And we saw all those things play out. The left and the progressives right now are just running every single bad play that evangelicalism has been running.

And we know how that ends up, and it ends up with nobody at your churches eventually. And so I think they're doing that right now.

And they're kind of, you know, I mean, Christians were probably the first to do dumb bumper stickers, right? And now we live in a bumper sticker world, right?

And so if you're kind of astute at Christian culture, you can see what the culture is actually doing, because it's just bad

Christian culture. Even like frosted tips, like on country artists. I still blame contemporary Christian artists for those tips.

Like it wasn't country. It was Christian culture that said this is a good idea to frost our tips, right?

You know, we think of it, you know, but that's a little bit deeper, and that's probably too heavy for most people to grasp, and I don't want to go down that road.

But that's kind of what we're seeing right now, like culturally, is like all the plays people are running, it's kind of like, it's almost like the

Jesus movement in the 70s and 80s. But it's, you know, and so you look at the 70s and 80s, and you go, okay, there was the

Jesus people and the early Jesus movement and all that stuff, and peace and love, and what is it?

And yet, but you also had men like Rush Dooney and Bonson, who were also on the scene, you know, and Van Til being like, this isn't going to work.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so I think that's what we're finding right now, is kind of knowing your place, realizing that the

Bonsons and the Rush Doonies, you know, and the Van Tils and those guys, that was the punk rock.

And so finding where the punk rock is, I think is still a really good thing to kind of be looking at and trying to have some sort of sense of it, you know.

And again, I mean, who doesn't love causing trouble? I mean, I think there's also a part of like, you know, we all love watching movies about troublemakers, but we don't want to be a troublemaker, you know.

And so we have this disconnect of where we get off on what we like to watch and see and see other people do, and it's like, or you could just do that in real life, and it's kind of exciting.

You know, I'm glad you brought that up, I think, because I was going to ask you, like, how do we respond as Christians to Christian culture getting canceled everywhere?

Like, it seems like every day it's like, oh, that person lost their channel, oh, that person's bank account got shut down. You know, it's happening like crazy.

Like, how do we respond? And I'm going to tie this into, because I talk about being defiant and like doing crazy things.

You know, I'm thinking back to this last fall when, you know, Gabe got arrested, Gabe Branch got arrested, you know, for singing psalms without a mask on and, like, talk about crazy, you know, oh my goodness, punk rock things.

Like, you know, and I love, you know, your take across politics that night.

Like, I've known you a while now. I've never seen you as fired up as you were that night. It was like, it was fire, man, and I was like, oh, that's so encouraging.

Like, so I feel like, you know, what you talked about that night, like that's how we need to be approaching things right now as Christians.

Yeah, and again, I mean, honestly, I mean, I love to joke around, I love to be serious, and it's kind of hard sometimes to figure out which mode

I'm in, even for myself. But I think, and again, so I'm not the guy, look,

I'm not the guy, I mean, go to Doug Wilson about like strategy and what to be doing and what the big plan is, you know, because there's people that really understand kind of what's happening, how to play this game.

I think I look at things, and I don't know if I would really encourage people to do this, but maybe the right people could, and I'd have to couch it with so many qualifications.

But I just think there's a lot of ways to get in scraps and fights right now, and I think that's good.

I mean, I like, I don't, I personally don't like fighting, but I also know that it's just that when you have to fight, you should fight.

Right. Avoid fights at all times, you know, but if you're actually in a battle, if you're actually in a war, it doesn't do you any good if you're in the middle of it to be like, well,

I don't like fighting. You know, like, no, you're in it. And so I'm not that concerned with having or trying to communicate a big strategy to people.

I think a lot, I think people can do that. I'm not the guy to do that. I think I would just encourage people to be like, don't be afraid to take a punch.

And to me, that's why I love social media. I actually love social media. That's why I'm so committed to it right now is it actually gives you an opportunity to get in the game, to communicate, to respond to things, you know.

And so maybe you'll be a little goofy, a little awkward at first. Maybe you'll be a little angry at first. Okay, but you can learn and you can grow, but you've got to get in the game.

And so I just love that people can actually be getting in the game right now. And sometimes throwing a punch can just be a really funny comment.

And so I just encourage Christians to like not be afraid, you know, to just, you know, like have at it, man.

Like let's go. I mean, it's amazing too that like moms and wives are more on the front lines with some of this than the men are.

They actually have to go into grocery stores more. Go shopping, do things.

Like I don't ever have to go into a store. I'm a guy. And it's like, but women do.

And that's the front lines. Like they're being harassed by men when they walk in. Yeah, sure.

Told what to do by other men. Told what to do with their bodies by other men. My body, my choice.

Like that should bother people a little bit.

That should bother people a little bit. And I think what people haven't thought through is what's the line.

Tell me what the line is when you will throw a punch. Tell me what the line is.

Like what if someone came up to you? Okay, here's the thought experiment. Like men, what if someone comes up and starts to put a mask on your wife?

Have you thought through that and what would you do? Yeah. And if you say,

I would politely ask him not to touch my wife's face, I'm not down with you.

And your wife should probably start looking for a new husband.

Assuming there's biblical grounds for divorce. Right, yeah. I think that is biblical. That's a great ground.

Someone just molested your wife and you just watched it? Yeah, I think you sent me that clip last night of you.

Actually, you were here with Jerry. And I think you're right on that. Like, how do we respond?

We grow a backbone. That's what you were saying in that clip. We be courageous and we don't be fearful.

And we live our lives based upon principles found in scripture. That's how we need to respond and not be fearful of what social media is going to say about us.

Not be afraid of getting canceled or whatever. We need to be faithful and courageous. And that's everything you were saying.

Have a backbone. And I think we're finally starting to see some of that. I agree.

Where is the line? I've been asking that question, too, for Christians. The church. Where is that line?

When is enough enough where you're going to stand up and stop cowering behind the four walls of your church?

When are you going to be brave and courageous? This thing in Canada. I was talking to Joe Boot. I was texting him yesterday and we were talking about James Coates in Canada.

The pastor that is in jail right now. And Joe Boot's up in Canada, right? Yeah. And I was saying

I'm hopeful and I'm praying that this wakes up the church in Canada.

That they start being courageous. And if every church next Sunday was like, you know what, forget them.

We're meeting and we're not wearing masks. The government is not going to know what to do. But because it's just one guy that's being courageous, then all the other

Christians start to get fearful. And I'm not saying all of the church in Canada because I know there are other faithful pastors like Joe Boot in his church.

But as a whole, I'm saying if the majority just continues to cower in fear, nothing's going to happen.

Nothing's going to change. But if the church unites and is brave and is courageous based on God's principles, as Jesus said, the gates of hell will not prevail against my church.

I think that's the fundamental misunderstanding is that a lot of people in churches don't know when defiance or that punk rock attitude is appropriate.

And they have not been taught that. Well, and obviously there's only one kind of faithful defiance and that's doing what the

Bible says. The feminists of the sexual revolution that started getting abortions, they're not champions of defiance.

Only to God. But not in a good way. Not in a faithful way. But I just don't think people understand.

Well, I guess I should say a lot of people think because Jesus says love, that doesn't involve defiance at all.

You just do what somebody else tells you to do and behave how you should behave, especially if it's the government.

And then, you know, this pandemic is just another layer added where people can fake concern for other people's lives.

But really, they're just virtue signaling and not minding their own business. Well, that's why they wanted to kill

Jesus. Because he was defined the virtue signalers of his day. There are people,

I'm not saying, so Christ's death is one of the fundamentals of Christianity, right?

So I'm assuming that even the most poorly discipled Christian knows that Jesus died.

But I don't know that everybody knows why or that was supposed to have an impact on how you live today.

We didn't, Christ didn't, we didn't have his death and resurrection. And then now we have the type of culture in society that we have right now.

But people seem to think like, oh, once Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected, then we all just loved each other and nobody hurt anyone's feelings.

Well, you know, it's, you know, Joy, you're, you're making me think about when people like, say, you need to act like Jesus.

Well, I can't do the miracles, right? So we have to take all those out. Right? So, like, what's left?

What, what Jesus behaviors are left if I take away the miracles that people want me to act more like Jesus?

And I can't think of anything that's that nice. And so there's this, there's this pushback we get, like, you need to act more like Jesus.

And I'm like, I don't, what, what category do you want me to act like? If you want me to be more like Jesus, because I can't do the miracles.

And if I turn the tables over in the marketplace, they say, don't, they say, don't act like Jesus.

Only, only Jesus could do that because he was righteous and perfect. So he has a perfect, righteous way in which he can flip those tables.

Right. Right. But then it's the standard. I can't do anything like Jesus. Because I can't do anything in perfect righteousness, even loving people.

Because I can't do it the way Jesus did it. So if we're supposed to act like Jesus, I don't know what,

I'm just saying, you're making me think. I don't know what category they want me to act like Jesus in. That's a great thought.

That's a great thought. I'm just thinking of, you know, the church, just, this is like a, just a small picture,

I think, of what we're talking about. I think I'm going to use Christchurch and the singing of hymns and in Moscow and stuff.

You know, when you guys, I love the, like, this was one of my favorite things that Marcus Pittman ever did.

When you guys went back after Gabe got arrested, you know, to sing songs with more people.

You're like, you're like, you know what, we're going to show you, we're going to defy you in the name of Jesus. And they're like, they sat in their offices, you know, looking like the

Grinch. That video that Marcus did was so good. It looked like the Grinch in their offices, staring down with their masks on.

They didn't know what to do. They didn't know how to handle it. Because you guys were like, no, we're not going to back down because, you know, we have objective standards to live by.

And I think that's just a microcosm of what could happen in our culture if the church, if Christ's bride would just unite like that over these principles.

The government, the culture, whoever, they're not going to know what to do and how to respond. I guess that's what

I was trying to say earlier, is that we actually have the only standard for defiance that's good and faithful.

Yeah, right. Absolutely. Right. Yeah. And that, obviously, that's where we get any of the things that I know all three of us would hold true in regards to what it means to be an

American, right? It presupposes a God. Yeah.

And it presupposes what you can tell people to do with their body. And it presupposes how we can live in communities.

Like, I was looking at some old picture of like, you know, the Old West. And it was like this little tiny, you know, tombstone type town.

It was like church, church, church. And the end of the street was the whorehouse. And you're like, wait, what?

How is that possible? It's like 100 yards down the street was like where the prostitutes were.

And we can't even, like, a modern day Christian couldn't even fathom that.

Like, you know, that's like, wait, what? But for us as Christians, as Americans, we can actually, we presuppose how to live in communities with people that don't believe what we believe.

And then how we actually share the gospel with them, how we interact in culture, how we have the opportunities to do the things that we do as Christians.

And I said it on Cultish, but it's really interesting because, again, if you look at what the left is doing right now, they look like a bunch of, like, brand new theonomists or something.

Right. Like, they just got their marching orders, right?

Yeah. And they're like, we're going to punish people on day one. Right. Right. And so, you know, again,

I think we bear some responsibility of how we've acted. I think we have to take that into consideration. Absolutely.

Right. I mean, yet at the same time, making sure that we're protecting those that we love, those that are in front of us and those that are behind us in the midst of what it is we're doing and how we're doing it.

And I guess I think you kind of posed the question earlier, kind of a little bit of what is the tactic? What is the strategy here?

I would still say if I was to try to give any advice on what I think would be encouraging and I would stand behind is like legitimate advice.

It would just be get your kids out of government schools. Amen. Just, I can't.

There's no other play. Yeah. There's just, there's no other play. You can't, we can't win this.

We will not win this if 95 % of believers and or Republican conservatives just turn their kids over to public schools.

It's where it infected us. Right. And it's still doing that.

And that's why I think God's doing something interesting because he's obviously destroyed the public school system right now.

Oh, yeah. Right. Isn't it glorious to watch? So that to me is really interesting because they say something like 10 to 15, 20 % are not going back.

Yeah. That's a big, look, that's a big migration out of those concentration camps.

Yeah. That's a big, if you said we've got a million people being held over in this camp here, right, you know, but we just smuggled 200 ,000 out, you'd be throwing a party.

Yeah. There's a lot of people not going back to public schools. And it turns out when they went online to look for alternative education, what did they find?

They found the Christians. Lagos. Yeah. I mean, classical conversations.

They're finding Kepler. Yeah. They're finding individuals out there offering things. They're also figuring out that they don't even need to have some sort of structured quota of credits.

Yeah. Right. So all of these things are being found out. I still think that is, that's the glorious story that's actually happening right now, but we're so distracted by everything else.

I think that the government school systems have totally, and by the way, and now the

Lords of those systems not wanting to go back. Yeah. This is,

I just think this is awesome. No, I agree. COVID is worth it to destroy the public schools.

Amen. I've said that too. It was like God came all at once and just took all of our nation's idols out in one fell swoop, just done.

And the DMV went online, which is so much easier. I mean, that alone. Yeah, no, you're right.

And it's like, man, it's like we couldn't, we as a nation couldn't, even the church hasn't been able to destroy the public school system.

So God has for us. And I'm incredibly grateful for that. So. I just can't top

Joy's statement there. I think Joy's got the mic drop there. Yeah, that was. The DMV, we should be thankful enough for the

DMV being online. I think that sums up the show. There it is.

There it is, people. I mean, I'm sure they found some way to make it just as difficult, but.

Just as painful. Well, now they just take forever to like get back stuff that you used to be able to let go in.

Like literally we've had this happen. Before you could like to get a trade name, you could just go in, give them the paperwork, and it's like 15 minutes done.

Now it's like four or five weeks you're waiting for them to get back. And it's like, all right, come on. Oh, that's my timer. So, yes.

So on that note, I did want to mention, I mentioned last week we would have a special announcement and I put it in the description today.

So Free Speech Apocalypse has been booted off of Amazon Prime. But Darren has generously given it to us, and it's now up on all access.

And you can actually, there's a link in the description. You can go to it. And so other than the bootleg copies on YouTube, you can find it at ApologyStudios .com.

Which I love. I mean, that's part of that punk. I love that people, I mean, I grew up on bootlegs. So, I mean,

I don't know how I could be, you know, a little bit different though these days when a million people can see it.

But I still love that, like, someone's just taking it and putting it up. Like, it's just kind of cool. Yeah.

Really quick, are you guys planning on, I mean, what's, I'd like to know in this, like,

ReformCon, those things. What are you guys, I know Fight, Laugh, Feast is going to South Dakota. Any plans for you guys to be there or with ReformCon?

What are you guys all doing right now? So, oh, good question. So, we're planning on being back at Fight, Laugh, Feast in the fall.

I know that. Looking forward to that. We actually were going to do, we were planning on doing another

ReformCon in the fall. But then at Fight, Laugh, Feast, they're like, we'll be back same time next year.

And we're like, oh, I guess that's not going to happen. Because we don't want to, like, you know, make it difficult for people to get to both.

So, we do want to do another ReformCon. Originally, the idea was to do every two years. It's a lot to do it every year.

Yeah. You know, and then COVID hit and just wrecked everything. So, we do have plans on doing more of that.

And, like I said, being at Fight, Laugh, Feast in the fall. I wanted to go to the thing this spring with CrossPolitik.

But I actually have a child on the way. And it's going to be here at the end of May, early

June. So, that kind of made it hard to travel during that time. So. What number is that? Three.

What number? Number three. I have a son coming. So, I got two daughters. And the Lord has blessed me with a son. Only three kids?

Oh, that's right. You're a Baptist, right? Have you been to our church? We have some very large

Baptist families here. Let me tell you. Okay. So, you know, seven, eight, nine kids.

We're talking to a lot of them. So, yeah. I could so not care about that. But I always forget.

Like, I always forget there's a bunch of Baptists over there. Like, it just is the funniest thing to me. I always forget.

Because I'm like, wait, wasn't Marcus over there? Oh, yeah. You guys made fun of him. That's right. I always forget. Yeah. Yeah. He was our token.

Presbyterian guy. We actually have a number of Presbyterian families now.

We have a few. We have a few people who have come from Idaho. I don't know. I'm just saying. I always say, like, when we do our church membership classes, the most membership transfers

I've done has been with Christ Church. Either way. We've had people go up there. We've had people come down here.

Maybe it's because we've been so nice to the Presbyterians. Maybe that's what it is. They know they're safe here. Yeah. We just had, like, two weeks ago, we just had, like,

I'm sitting in the back, like, in the bleachers, and we have infant baptisms.

We have sprinkling. We have believer's baptism. Like, all that. And I was kind of like, oh, okay, that's an older child.

You know, like, okay, it's going to be sprinkling over the kid. But because of the way it was set up,

I couldn't tell that there was, like, an actual, like, horse trough up in front, which I've never seen in Christ Church, right?

Yeah. And then I was like, is Doug about to do a full dunk? The next thing I know, he just full immersion baptism just in.

I was just like, I just didn't see that coming today. Well, there's hope. There's hope for you guys yet.

I was going to say, Apology has been filling up a horse trough at the park for since its inception.

I think my third baptism was in a horse trough, so I have affection for the horse trough.

That's a true story. I believe it. When I went up for membership at Christ Church, you stand there on behalf of your family, you're there, and you're being brought in, and then

Doug says, you know, he's looking at me, I'm like eight inches away from Doug, and he's eyeballing me, and he's saying the things, yes, it is.

Have you been baptized in accordance with the Lord's word? And I said, yes, many times. And he just looked at me, and he didn't skip a beat, but it was close to skipping a beat.

He just kind of paused for a second, like, oh, okay. But I was being truthful.

I think I've had like three baptisms, so I didn't really know. When he asked, have you been baptized? I was like, many times.

Love it. Every single one, I loved it. It's a great experience. Always into it. Always into it.

Such a good time. Oh, Doug. Hey, Bear. Take us out to the end.

Wrap it up. Okay, well, thank you. Thank you, dude. I love you, and I'm so excited to have you on, and I know we've been talking a lot behind scenes, just how we can do more together, and some tentative stuff we've talked about, so I'm excited about that.

So, yeah, thank you, man, for being out here working. I mean, you do a lot of things. If this is your time, and you want to promote yourself at all, you can go ahead and do that.

I love social media. I'm all about people understanding the power of content. Kind of what

I call content communication. There's sort of this content creation, creator box.

I'm all about content communicating, being able to communicate on all these platforms. It's kind of what

I document for what I do in my business, in my life, so follow me at domecreativeofficial on Instagram.

Go find me on LinkedIn. If you're not on LinkedIn, you can laugh for a moment, and then when you're done laughing, get yourself on LinkedIn, one of the most underutilized platforms on the planet right now.

It's not about job postings anymore. This is a real community. I think over 800 million people now on LinkedIn.

The platform has completely changed from when you probably thought you knew what it was all about. It's fire, and every single person needs to be on LinkedIn.

So, yeah, follow me on Instagram. Follow me on LinkedIn. I communicate nonstop about creating and content communicating and kind of just all things creative agency and creation.

So, I would love it for you guys to follow me. Right on. Thanks, bro. I actually had someone from LinkedIn contact me the other day about a construction job.

Oh, dang. Yeah, a little outdated. My profile from like 15 years ago. They were like, hey, you still looking for a job?

I was like, nope. If you're in ministry, then you should be on LinkedIn because if you're trying to raise money, you might want to go find people that have a job.

Yeah, that's true. That's true. So, get there. Find people. There's so many people in the closet on LinkedIn who would love to maybe drop five grand, ten grand for a school you're building or a missions trip.

And you know what? They're there checking LinkedIn, and they see you pop in. You're talking about something, or they just got a crazy diversity speech or training thing coming up they have to do.

And what's their act of rebellion? Boom. They drop five grand. They pull it from their 401, whatever. And all of a sudden, get on.

The world is connected. So, be there. Interesting. I didn't even know that. So, thank you. All right.

Well, everyone, thank you again, as always, for joining us today. Thank you for your support.

We mean it when we say that these lights that are lighting us up, these cameras are paid for everyone that supports us.

So, you can go to apologistudios .com if you're not part of All Access. You can join that and subscribe to that.

And just, you know, nine, ten bucks a month helps us tremendously. And you really, truly partner with us in ministry.

So, thank you again. If you haven't done that, please do it. And you can, of course, support inabortionnow .com.

We have a lot of stuff going on right now with In Abortion Now. Like 13 different states we're talking to.

We're trying to help them get abolition bills. So, thank you, everyone, so much for your support.

And thank you, Joy, for... Oh, I was trying to play some music. There we go. Okay. Thank you,

Joy. You see, I put some punk rock on for you, Darren. Oh, yeah. There you go. There you go. Kind of.

It's royalty -free, so it's not that great. It's a royalty -free punk rock. I have two on YouTube where they'll boot us off for using something

I shouldn't be using. So, I don't have permission to use. It's not too bad. It's not too bad. It's decent.

It's got a little bit of that 80s new wave pop. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. It does. Yeah, you're right. It does. You can dance if you had to.

Got that. All right. Thank you, Joy. Thank you. Thank you, Darren. Thank you, guys.