Free Will DEBATE | Jeremiah Nortier vs @AKRichardson

The Apologetic Dog

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Well, welcome welcome everybody to tonight's debate if all of you back in the back could make your way in here and get some seats

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We're excited to have all of you joining us tonight both in person

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Plus we have all of you online tonight Joining us. Thank you for being with us

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My name for those of you that don't know me is Nathan Hargrave and I serve here at 12 five church as an elder and here in Jonesboro, Arkansas Where we we are well, really the only

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Reformed Baptist Church in all of Jonesboro And if you are near this area, we would love for you to come and worship with us every

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Sunday morning at 10 a .m And Wednesday at 6 30 p .m. And you can find out more about This church at twelve five church

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Calm that is the word twelve the number five church calm. Yes, we like to make it complicated

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But be sure to follow us on YouTube channel where you're able to keep up with what is being taught here at twelve five

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But tonight I get the privilege of moderating this exciting debate the proposition that has been put forward tonight is as follows man has

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Libertarian free will and in the affirmative we have the one and only

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Aka Richardson Aka, he grew up just an hour west of here in Batesville, Arkansas If I'm correct, and he has he's been in public ministry now for 12 years his wife of 15 years

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Daniella is with us tonight joining in support of her husband and their their two children

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Vera is that say it right? Vera, okay. I'm sorry Vera and Isaac And and a

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K's main focus is teaching and he teaches in Cave City, Arkansas Currently, and he also has a

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YouTube channel We will put a link to his channel below if you're with us online or you can just search aka

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Richardson and on his channel he discusses various theological topics So please go and and check out his his content

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Again a K will be taking the Affirmative to the proposition that man has libertarian free will and in the negative

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We have our very own the apologetic dog Jeremiah nortier

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Jeremiah if you don't know him yet has grown up right here in Jonesboro, Arkansas And he also serves as an elder right here with me at twelve five church him and his wife out

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They have a baby boy JJ nortier. I how old JJ now eight months

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JJ nortier also known as around here the apologetic puppy So so they they their family is very dear to us

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But Jeremiah's love for apologetics his love for theology and for God's people can be seen in Both his local ministry here with us and on his online ministry the apologetic dog so be sure to like and subscribe so you can be alerted with all of the content that he is regularly putting out and I know that you'll be blessed and Encouraged by his ministry and if you if you have been blessed by his content

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I encourage you Please go to his patreon and we'll have that listed below also where you can help support him in this

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Ministry this type of content. It doesn't just happen It's not free to create and to and to provide all of the things involved in that it takes brothers and sisters like yourself to Play a role and a part in that and we appreciate your support

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But one way that you can support is at the end of tonight's debate. We will be taking questions from the audience

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Both live and in person and for those of you that are online if you have a question, please

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Listen here. You need to preface it with the letter Q Okay, you put that first that way it lets us know that that you're asking a question and make sure to address it to either

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AK or Jeremiah, whichever one you're wanting to ask or answer your question But if you want to be sure that your question does get asked you can support this ministry through a super chat

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Meaning you can give financially with a question and that will definitely push you up into Getting that question asked to both

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AK and Jeremiah at the end of the night You can ask any question at any time

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But remember you we will be addressing them at the end and with all of the introduction out of the way

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Let's go to the Lord and prayer and let's ask that he would bless this night That that truth would would go forward dear

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Heavenly Father. We come to you tonight and we thank you we thank you for Who you are we thank you for your word and how how it is clear

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Lord, I pray that we would would be able to to Learn and see in that word what it is that you are telling us

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Lord, I pray that you would work in tonight both in person for those here and online

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For those that are watching and will be watching in the future. I pray that this would be an edifying encouraging challenging

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I pray that your children would hear the truth and and and Grow and be sanctified through it.

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We thank you for this opportunity and be honored in tonight in Christ's name. Amen Well without further ado, let's dive in tonight's debate

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We'll be starting with our opening statements Each gentleman will be given 20 minutes to state their case in each of their stated positions

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We will start with the affirmative Aka the floor is yours. I will start the clock as soon as you begin your opening statement

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Okay. Now do I gotta connect it again? Yes. Yes, you'll just do the airdrop

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Or not the airdrop the mirroring. Oh Okay, there you go

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All right Okay, I'm gonna wait you get the timer.

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All right well, all right, so Good evening, everybody. It's good to be here and I am thankful to take the non -Calvinist side of the debate the opportunity

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Thankful for it Although I have disappointed many of the Calvinist that know me because they saw the beard growing and they thought he's coming on over but No, I keep the mustache shave.

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So now the Amish are excited But no, I am I am thankful for the opportunity

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And now I do want to say to all those here and watching that are reformed

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Nothing I will say here is meant to be of any ill will towards you I do speak fervently matter -of -factly and a pretty passionate but you know,

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I am here to attempt to convince you that my position is true, but And I do believe

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Calvinism is unbiblical But I know that if you do believe those things you're not trying to be unbiblical any more than I'm trying to be unbiblical

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So it is not personal But I did want to say that so I hope you'll keep that in mind Now what

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I want to do is start with some clarity and I think clarity goes a long way in a debate before I even Get to my arguments

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So what I'm gonna this is gonna blow away. I'll sit here for now What I want to do is start with some definitions. Okay, so the will we talk about the will of man

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What is the will pretty simply it is the power of the mind to choose?

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Okay, but what about libertarian free will now I will argue in this debate that libertarian free

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Will it's just a fancy way of saying real free. Well, I will argue that if it's not libertarian free will

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It's not really free in any meaningful sense but a definition Would be that it is the ability to choose without prior or external causal

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Determination in other words your choices are ultimately up to you So that you are the ultimate chooser

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Nothing outside of you is necessitating your your choices now. So by contrast compatibilism of Calvinism says that God ultimately chooses every choice that you makes and determines them through an unchangeable means and secondary means

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So that every choice that you make God is ultimately determined what that choice will be for which you are held responsible

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So libertarian free will it just says God gave you the freedom to choose and it's up to you and you were held responsible because of that freedom so Continuing with the contrast the

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Westminster Confession of Faith, which I think Jeremiah told me he affirms Says that God decreed from all eternity

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Unchangeably all things Whatsoever comes to pass now all things includes every choice that you make what clothes you're wearing tonight

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What seat you sat in more importantly it includes every moral choice That you'll ever make for which you'll be held accountable

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And your intentions and your motives and every thought of your heart was determined by God and notice that it is unchangeable

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This means there is no human power to choose other than what God determined you would choose and You will be held responsible for but Libertarian free will says as Tozer put it

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God did not decide what choice that you would make but that you would be free to make it Okay now on that note

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I want to just for the sake of clarity again give you some general points about my view and I think this in the long

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Run will be helpful, so it is my view that God in the good pleasure of his own will Created man with libertarian freedom to choose in other words

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This is a debate about what God has done with his creature man. How has he created his will?

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What is the nature of the freedom he gave him and this impacts the practicality of our responsibility before God?

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So this is God's doing that's what we're debating Also, it is my view that God eternally purposed to save unworthy sinners who freely

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Libertarian Lee so choose to put their faith in Jesus Christ It is my view that though God desires that all people would repent and Be saved it is not his chosen purpose

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To save those who do not freely choose to repent and believe in Christ in other words

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God has that which would please him that all people would repent and be saved and he desires that but has not

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Purposed to save those who do not make the choice to repent and believe

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It is my view that not desiring to determine man's will God who is beyond wise enough and sovereign enough works out his purpose and counsel through evil evil men and also of his own people without Determining their will in other words

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God does not need to determine man's will in order to accomplish his own

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In other words God does not need to determine the moves on both sides of the chessboard in order to win the game or to Accomplish the strategies that he plans

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He leaves freedom for the other the opponent of the chessboard and he can still win and accomplish all his strategies

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Now it's important to note that Calvinist of course would agree with some of this statement here in the last part The form the reform do believe that God works out his good purposes through evil now the difference is

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He also causally determines it now to me. That's unreasonable and Diminishes his character not that Calvinists are trying to do that But to me that's like a fire house that sets fire to an apartment complex

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And then saves the people from the fire and then puts the fire out I find that unreasonable and I believe that does diminish his character

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Now a couple more minutes before I get to my arguments because this is very important, let's talk about the point of Disagreement now in my in my years now you may disagree in your experience

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But in my experience and all the years of having this conversation and debates My Calvinist friends will spend so much time on points where nobody disagrees

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So I want to get the framework for the debate set on the right track, so let's talk about sovereignty now

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Nobody disagrees that God is sovereignty. He he rules over every aspect of his creation

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So we all agree he's sovereign now what we disagree on is What God does in his sovereignty it does he determine all things in his sovereignty or not?

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But so much of the time my Calvinist friends will talk about free will versus sovereignty You know is God really sovereign these kinds of things and no that's that's not the issue

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We all believe he's sovereign, but I'm going to give you some examples now in one of his videos Jeremiah At least framed the debate in this way ten times or so Again, I know he's trying he's being honest, and he's trying to represent it well, but I think that is incorrect so for example

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He said even there now. This is referencing before the fall He said even there free will that wasn't marred by sin does not negate the sovereignty of God well

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I agree well. I don't believe free will ever negates the sovereignty of God otherwise. He couldn't punish you for the choices that you make

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But that's a wrong framework He also said that this libertarian freedom now

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That's the view I hold says that I'm free to do otherwise and basically God is not sovereign in that moment

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But that's that's incorrect unless you assume sovereignty means determinism, and that's not the definition in fact

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I use Jeremiah's definition He rules over every aspect of his creation, but does he determine all things that's the debate

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So what I want you to do as an interested audience. You know you're interested in these matters I want you to listen for Jeremiah to frame the debate that way again.

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Not that he does does it intentionally I'm saying listen for that because you will know we're getting off track because we're not debating his sovereignty.

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We're debating determinism I'll give you one more example now

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Prominent Calvinist whom I respect James White. He said he stood on this very stage

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According to him if you don't believe in unconditional election then quote you don't believe in the sovereignty of God now

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That's just not true unless you assumed Sovereignty means determinism that is the debate.

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What is determinism true? That's the issue not sovereignty but So now as we begin to go to the

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Bible You know from front cover to back cover God is presenting men with choices, and he's presenting them with Judgment and punishment, and he's holding them guilty, but you know every bit of that is evidence of libertarian freedom

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Why because responsibility and culpability presuppose libertarian free will absolutely every aspect of your life

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You can't make sense of somebody being guilty or punished for things They cannot control so if a woman's drink is drugged so that she's she becomes in a state of mind by some man

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To do things she shouldn't do and wouldn't otherwise do if we find out about that. We don't blame the woman

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We blame the man why because we presuppose libertarian free will when we hold people responsible

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He was the ultimate chooser the man in the analogy otherwise in Calvinism God holds man responsible for what

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God controls and decides Remember unchangeable and unchangeable means all right, so Now let's get to Some biblical evidence here and a specific look now actually these scriptures affirm libertarian free will

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I believe in a variety of different ways I try to be very selective and not to overwhelm Jeremiah with just way too many scriptures

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Not that he will have an obligation to address them in his opening, but nevertheless I do have just a select few here so for example first Corinthians chapter 10 now in this chapter

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Paul is addressing the Corinthians temptations to idolatry In verse 13 he says no temptation has overtaken you

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But such as is common to man, but God is faithful. Okay. God is faithful to do what? Who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able now notice the word able there's an ability man has according to God's faithfulness

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He says but with the temptation will provide a way of escape also so that you will be able to Endure it there's the word able again

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Now if libertarian free will is true that kind of just stands as it says But if it is not and the alternative of the debate is true

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Then when you succumb to temptation and you sin it was unchangeably determined that you would So there was no way of escape you did not have a human power to choose other than what you did

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But the whole point of the statement is to say when you sin you didn't have to do it That's why you're guilty, but if compatibilism is true

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Actually, no when you sin there's nothing you could have done because God is a lot powerful more powerful than we are and it's an unchangeable decree and The whole point it

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Calvinism turns the text on its head because the whole point is to say You don't have to sin when you do there's a way out

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Okay Ezekiel chapter 18 now speaking about rebellious Israel God says cast away from yourselves all your transgressions and Which you have committed to make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit now

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Why will you die O house of Israel for I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies declares the

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Lord Yahweh now This is a judgment passage as most of it is in the prophets So God is saying the end result is going to be your death and judgment

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I don't desire that stop doing what you're doing But that makes sense of libertarian freewill is true because they don't have to do what they're doing.

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They they can choose to stop but If the alternative is true They're doing exactly what

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God determined that they would do But God is saying you stop doing what you're doing to get a different result that that I would desire more

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But if Calvinism is true, of course and libertarian freewill isn't true. Then God would be saying Stop doing what

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I have unchangeably determined that you would do so that the end result that I determined for you Would not him would not come to pass

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You see It's a rationality, you know, and the human mind is is naturally trained

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To detect error by irrationality. It's always a way to detect error always in every aspect of life

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Okay, but okay. So 2nd Peter chapter 3 now This is the passage about the delay of the Lord's coming in verse 9

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It says the Lord is not slow about his promise as some consider slowness But is patient toward you

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Not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. I want to focus on the word patient God is patience that the amount of time that goes by seems to be long because God is being patient and Verse 15 says and consider the patience of our

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Lord as salvation Now I got to ask the question Well first I'll say that I believe this is libertarian freewill verse because it kind of just says what it says

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But if libertarian freewill is not true, I got to ask the question what is God being patient with Because all things that occur were determined by God So God is being patience with the very things that he determined.

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So ultimately God is being patient with himself I find that unreasonable. I think that's a libertarian freewill verse

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Okay in Jeremiah chapter 18, I'll paraphrase this but I think we all know the story about the Potter he tells

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Jeremiah to go see the Potter at work and Jeremiah looks and the Potter is making a vessel and then the and then

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The Potter changes the shape of it and it says and he changed it as he wanted to what's the analogy?

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Did the Potter make a mistake? No, actually it goes on to say God says Here's what

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I will tell nations if I tell you that I'm going to pluck up and destroy if that nation

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Repents of the evil then I will repent of the destruction that I promised I'm paraphrasing likewise if I promise blessings to a nation if it turns from its righteousness

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I will repent of the blessings that I promised it the whole point of the Figure of changing the vessel in the middle of work, and it means

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God is going to change God is more than happy to react. He's got no problem with that. And he says that the nation turns into wickedness

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I would change the plans I have for it. That's not determinism Otherwise the nation is doing exactly what he determined them to do in the first place

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But in the analogy remember that the vessel is shaped and changed in the middle of the work

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If determinism is true, the vessel should have been the same way from the beginning

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Okay, Jeremiah chapter 19 Now concerning rebellious

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Israel. This is a pretty bad practice of theirs They burn their own children in the fires to a false

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God Baal God says they have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons and the fire has burnt offering to Baal a

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Thing which I never commanded nor spoke of Nor did it ever come upon my heart

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Now what does it mean that it never came upon his heart? Never it doesn't mean he never thought about it or knew about it because he actually talked about it before No, it's a contrast between the outward expression of speaking and commanding

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He said I didn't command it nor did I speak it in other words I didn't outwardly tell them this was my will

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Nor did it come upon my heart meaning it wasn't a secret unspoken desire of mine.

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They didn't hear me command them They can't use that excuse. They didn't hear me speak about it So they can't use that excuse and it certainly wasn't some silent intention

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I had for them If libertarian free will is true, it makes sense for what it says, but if the alternative is true, of course

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It originated in God's heart It originated in his heart It's completely the opposite of what the verse is saying

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Now Matthew chapter 23 verse 37. I think a lot of people knew this was coming Jesus says

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Jerusalem Jerusalem who kills the prophets and Stones those who are sent to her how often

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I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her Wings and you did not want it

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Now this is a judgment passage once again and judgment came in 80 70 40 years later But he says

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This judgment is coming because you did not want it. But if compatibilism is true.

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He didn't want it But he left that part out. In fact, he said the opposite He said how often I did want it, which means it didn't happen if it was often

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But he's saying you didn't want it Otherwise, he's gonna bring judgment upon them for what he willed for them to be willing to do

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John chapter 5 Jesus is speaking to the unbelieving Jews He has a lot to say in verse 34 he says but I say these things so that you may be saved

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Okay, so he teaches God's words and revelations so that they can be saved

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That means they are enabled to believe by the things that he says Now the problem is just six verses later in verse 40

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He says and you are unwilling to come to me that you may have life Libertarian free will if it's true kind of just says what it says he they could believe because of what he teaches and what he says

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But they're not willing to do it. But now if the alternative is true It's because he's unwilling but he says you are unwilling and we know that he actually was willing

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Because he said I say these things so that you may be saved But if libertarian free will isn't true and compatibilism is

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I have to ask the question How may they be saved by the things that he says if he determined they would not be saved by the things that he says

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The truth is that's contradictory And contradictions are false. I know no, you know, my reformed friends my

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Calvinist friends and if you're reformed I know you're not trying to be false, but it is the ultimate implication of what you believe

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Proverbs chapter 16 There are several of chapter 16 like this but chose verse 9 it says the heart of man plans his way

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But Yahweh directs his steps Well, that's libertarian free will man is planning his way in his heart.

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God will direct his steps You see God does not need to determine your will in order to accomplish his own even through you think about Jonah Now Jonah planned in his heart to run from God's command to preach to Nineveh, but God got him there

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Anyway, you know the story you say he didn't need to determine his will He knows how to get a man to do it.

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Anyway now Of course, it's ironic if you think about that story in light of compatibilism because he determined for Jonah to run from his commandment

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Commandment punish him for doing what he determined him to do which was run and then determined for him to change his mind and go

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No, I think that's a bit unreasonable It's a libertarian free will God doesn't need to determine your will now

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It says the heart of man plans his way and compatibilism God's doing both actually so you lose the contrast but As I said though, this really is a debate about obviously we can say well what the

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Bible says that that goes without saying We both are going to argue from Scripture But in summary,

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I will say that I believe Calvinism isn't biblical That's obviously what I've tried to convince you of I think it is irrational and I think it diminishes the character of God unintentionally, so of course

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But I know you disagree you may disagree, but I ask that you will just consider and that is my time

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Thank You a K We will now hear from the negative as Jeremiah has 20 minutes for his opening statement

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Jeremiah the floor is yours. I will start the clock as soon as you begin Testing testing.

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Well, just thank you. I just want to thank you all for being here this evening for a lovely debate I have a lot of respect for a

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K. You see how professionally is someone. Thank you for choosing to be here It's irresistible and it was predestined before the foundation of the world.

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So let's get into it I want to begin by affirming that free will is biblical I want to partially quote one of the last verses that you heard a

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K Proverbs 16 9 just the first part we'll get into the rest the heart of a man

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Plans his way that's free will Biblical free will affirms that man makes genuine choices according to his heart's desire

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That mean he deliberates he thinks about what he wants to do and he is responsible for what he chooses to do.

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I believe libertarian free will is not that this is a Something much different.

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This is a philosophical idea like he was getting into that asserts human responsibility

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Moral Agency is mutually exclusive with divine determinism me and him are on the same page libertarian free will affirms what's called in Compatibilism and so I was watching a number of a case programs.

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I feel like I know him I've watched so much of his content lately. I liked how he defined libertarian free will

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He says it's man's ability to be the first cause of one's choices. He is ultimate

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Okay, so I think that's a good workable definition for this debate this evening along with what he said, but in contrast

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I think libertarian free will according the scripture is the Conditional ability to be the proximate cause of one's choices.

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This means that man's decision is not Ultimate and so my main argument this evening is libertarian free will is false

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Because of who God is And so I hope to demonstrate to to you this foundational view of who

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God is according to his word But before I do that, I want to present four arguments

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Why I think libertarian free will is false on its own terms. And so argument number one is the problem of Ability this typically asserts that moral agents are first or have ultimate ability to choose.

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Otherwise regardless of all Antecedent conditions being just as they are at the moment of choice.

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This will be important for the debate This is called Categorical ability and categorical ability must maintain that at the moment of choice

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Nothing can be determined beforehand. And so I would include this is probably where you will see a little disagreement but that would include reasons and Evidences and so if that is true if he if he denies that his ultimate choice is not determined by reason and evidences

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I believe this is an irrational position. I can illustrate it this way Okay, why did you come debate this evening if someone said just cuz

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I would say that's not a cogent answer Why did you come? Well, if the answer is to muzzle the apologetic dog with my reasons and my arguments,

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I'm gonna say great That's a conditional ability not a categorical ability. That is no longer libertarian free will but that is compatibilistic free will his choices would be determined by his

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Actions or his actions would be determined by his choices and his choices would be determined by his reasons and so I believe the first problem is the problem of ability my second argument is the problem of freedom and the fallacy of unification

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Libertarian free will often asserts that man cannot be free Morally accountable if God has predetermined their decisions

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I believe this type of phraseology equivocates on the word free it is ambiguous at best this will occasionally mean conditional ability or Categorical ability now we'll get more into those terms

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But categorical ability says all things being equal inside and out. I have the ability to choose a or not a

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Conditional ability says if I want to choose a I can but if I want to choose B, I can do that Also, that's a that's a condition based on reasons and evidences and desire

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I believe just saying man has libertarian free will only if God cannot determine begs the question of incompatibilism this also assumes a particular nation a relationship between God and man

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Libertarian free will commits the fallacy of unification That means that man's ability of choice is identical with God's ability of choice

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I believe this is irrational. I believe more fundamentally. This is unbiblical because God is transcendent eternal absolute

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Immutable self -existing all -powerful and all -knowing and so much more can be said there

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Man is made in God's image and please hear me. He cannot reflect the attributes of God Identically or one -to -one the same man would no longer be an image bearer or a reflection

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He would be an exact copy in some of these attributes Man is not

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God man is created. He is temporal. He is changing. He is derivative

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He is limited of power and he is limited in knowledge And so if we unificate the will and choice of the creature with the creator

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Then that will have devastating effects effects on the absolute The the necessary attributes of God and so to put it another way libertarian free will if it were true

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God could not be immutable. He would not be and could not be absolute

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He would not be all -knowing or all -powerful now you may say hold up Jeremiah, what do you mean?

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Why is it the case if libertarian free will is true? Then God can't be omniscient or omnipotent Well my third argument

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I want to address these things the problem of libertarian free will with God's foreknowledge if God has

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Exhaustive knowledge of all future events before they occur then at the moment of a person's choice

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That person can only choose what God infallibly knows to be certain This is a problem for the philosophical idea of libertarian free will because God's knowledge and his predetermination

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Go hand in hand. They are not identical, but they are inextricably connected together

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God knows what he predetermines and he predetermines what he knows if God's knowledge is diminished in any way

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Well there there goes his predetermination and if someone demands that they have categorical ability apart from God's Predetermination then you've been just damaged his omniscience and he would therefore not possess

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Absolute foreknowledge that is why many advocates of libertarian free will are open theist

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That says God does not know the future and their central argument is God is so Sovereign that he can choose not to know some things

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Now this evening AK does not believe in open theism and I deny hyper

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Calvinism So we are in good company this evening. So I understand really what

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AK is more arguing we're gonna see sparks fly probably is argument number four the problem of libertarian free will with God's omnipotence and sovereignty

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Okay, when scripture says Jesus is the only sovereign this means that he rules with Transcendent power.

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He is King of Kings. He is Lord of Lords and when scripture declares Hallelujah for the

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Lord our God Almighty the omnipotent Reigns this is talking about how

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God is all Powerful meaning that his power is without limit

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And so many advocates of libertarian free will will say well God is so sovereign enough that he can limit himself in some way to create

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Libertarian free will and give it to humans and so I want to pause and say am I really to believe that God's power of Choice is so limitless

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That he can limit himself. I would say no way. God cannot deny himself

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Ah, but Jeremiah Jesus limited himself when he became man

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I would say listen the doctrine of kenosis Christ self emptying when he took on flesh

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It's not a limitation, but a revelation. So hopefully we can get more into that. But these four arguments

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I just want to sum up again the problem of categorical ability Reduces down to arbitrariness.

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That's number one number two that kind of free will begs the question of incompatibilism and commits the fallacy of Unification that kind of relationship between God and man will collapse

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God's necessary Attributes like I mentioned in argument number three his omniscience goes away and argument number four his omnipotence and sovereignty

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Goes away. And so even with these four arguments, I think there's an even better one

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Libertarian free will is false because of who God is So I hope we get into this but God is eternal omnipotent omniscient and he has

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Determined to create this entire world with every event that's going to take place

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And if you affirm these classical attributes of God Then this necessarily means that God determined everything that would come to pass in a very particular manner

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The end all the way from the beginning and so what does scripture say about who

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God is and who man is? Well that verse that AK quoted earlier. I'm glad we're kind of camping on this the heart of a man

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Plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps This is a wise saying about man's actions are planned from his inner desire and that is compatible with God's Directing God establishing and literally determining his steps.

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And so we asked the question Jeremiah. How is that possible? That is only possible because God and man are not the same

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God has the ability to make eternal choices and man has the ability to make temporal choices

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And please hear me here a human cannot determine another human's actions without using some kind of force manipulation or Coercion, but God's choices are categorically different than man's

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God has an eternal choice and that eternal choice Grounds meaning and purpose of all temporal events that happen in this created world

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So God's choice is different than man's choice and listen There is no force that we would accuse

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God of wrongdoing. There is no manipulation There is no coercion and there is no contradiction

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Yeah, but Jeremiah the book of Proverbs is poetic so you can't take it that literally that's fine

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Let's look at a historical count in the book of Genesis with the life of Joseph Joseph said to his brothers in Genesis 45 do not be angry with yourselves because you

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Sold me here for God sent me before you to preserve life So it was not you that sent me here, but God And so clearly

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Joseph's brothers made this the sinful Temporal choice to sell Joseph into slavery and that would send him to Egypt But God also chose this as a means differently than how the brothers chose

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God eternally and sovereignly Had purpose in using those sinful actions as the means to bring

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Joseph to Egypt to preserve many lives And that is how we understand Genesis 50 verse 20

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The brothers meant evil against Joseph But God meant it for good to bring about that people should be kept alive

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What man means for evil God can mean for good This is the exact principle that we see at the cross of Calvary acts 2 23 says this

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Jesus Delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God You crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men

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So I talk about these these words here this definite plan and the Greek is horizzo meaning to determine ordain or decree beforehand

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Yeah, but Wasn't it already prophesied didn't God already declare this before it came about?

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Yes all the way back in Genesis 3 15 that the seed of the woman this coming

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Savior would be bruised By the serpent and we even get greater prophecy details.

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God declared this 700 years before the scene of Jesus's earthly ministry in Isaiah 53

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We read there again It was the will of Yahweh God the Father to crush the suffering servant that he would be pierced for our

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Transgressions that he would be crushed for our iniquities that he would suffer at the hands of lawless men yeah, but Jeremiah you got to emphasize the foreknowledge right because doesn't that mean that God can look down and see what choices man is

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Going to make and then he can make choices like that. You already heard a K He believes that God can react to man and I would say that is not what's being talked about because I believe it is

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Impossible for God to react because he is immutable He is absolute and the word foreknowledge

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Prognosis does not carry that kind of philosophical baggage foreknowledge means that God possesses knowledge beforehand

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God possesses knowledge of all future events even before the foundation of the world and listen for knowledge literally means predetermination of God's omniscient wisdom and Intention so that's

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Acts chapter 2 and I believe Acts chapter 4 further clarifies What we just read Acts 4 27 and 28 says for truly in this city

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You were gathered together against your holy servant whom you anointed both Herod and Pontius Pilate Along with the

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Gentiles and the people of Israel don't miss this to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place

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This was prophesied many times in the Old Testament and the early church recognized that every detail down to the individuals at Calvary were peridso

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Predestined God from eternity decreeing all who would be involved God has written all of history according to his eternal plan

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The crucifixion of Christ is no exception and all of those wicked men and their actions will be justly held accountable

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For what they determined in their own heart to do Proverbs 16 4 says the Lord has made everything for its purpose even the wicked for the day of trouble

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This affirms that God's sovereignty divine determination is compatible with human responsibility choices that they will be held accountable for Now you may say

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Jeremiah. Okay fine This one event was determined but that doesn't mean that all events were determined in history

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And I just want to remind all of us We have to remember the distinction between who the

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Creator is and who the creation is God does in fact have exhaustive purpose in everything that exists in the world

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He is the one who declares the end all the way from the beginning So if you have a

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Bible with you, I'd like to invite you to turn with me to Isaiah chapter 46 Here we get a sneak peek into how

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God is able to sustain Israel through adversity and this is in contrast to how the

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Babylonian false gods are Impotent they are futile and they cannot save their people

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Isaiah 46 starting in verse 9 says for I am God and there is none like me

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Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done saying my counsel

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Shall stand and I will accomplish all my purpose calling a bird from the east

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I pray of the east and a man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken I will bring it to pass.

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I have purposed and I will do it And so with my remaining time I just want to highlight a few key words in this passage the word declaring means to make known or to announce beforehand and so this is telling us that God declares everything from the past even ancient times and he also

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Declares future events things not yet done and then verse 10 goes on to say my counsel shall stand

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Now his counsel here refers to him forming a plan that will be executed Perfectly and then we read and I will accomplish all my purpose

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And so the Hebrew word purpose here could be rendered what I desire or my good pleasure

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I will do all that I please and so I want to pose a question How is

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God able to declare the end from the beginning Perfectly God, how do you know?

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How do you have perfect knowledge that no created thing will thwart you from executing your desired plan?

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I believe the key is in verse 11 We read calling a bird of prey from the east a man of my counsel from a far country.

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I have spoken I will bring it to pass. I have purposed and I will do it now this word

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Purpose here is different than the word purpose in verse 10. This literally refers to God's Predetermined plan look it up.

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And so how does God know that no created thing will thwart his will because God is Executing his purpose in all things according to his

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Predetermined plan Isaiah uses the same terminology earlier in his prophecy

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He says have you not heard that I determined it long ago? I planned or predetermined from the days of old and now

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I bring it to pass This is exactly what King David said in Psalm 139 your eyes saw me when

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I was inside the womb all the days Ordained or predetermined for me were written in the scroll of your book before any one of them came into existence

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So if Isaiah 4610 where it says God declaring the end from the beginning if this is referring to all

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Events that take place in history. Listen libertarian free will is false because of who

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God is God declares all things he planned all things and purposed all things and he is the one ultimately and Primarily that brings all things to pass and you may say

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Jeremiah Congratulations. You just made God the author of evil. I Back up there a second

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Go look back at Genesis 1 and 2 because last I checked God is the effectual author of everything

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That is good and very good when you look back at creation We see

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God's heart expressed and all of his beautiful creation. There is no evil and that was a direct effectual cause of his handiwork

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God is not the effectual author of evil, but God Authorizes that evil exists and every theological position that affirms all of these classical attributes of God Namely his omnipotence and omniscience must also affirm that God ordains permits authorizes evil

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He even predetermined to create a world that would bring about the existence of evil

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But of course a K and I will agree through secondary means And so I just want to read one final verse that I think beautifully sums up compatibilism

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Ecclesiastes 3 11 says God has made everything beautiful in its time Also, he has put eternity into man's heart yet so that he cannot find out what

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God has done from the beginning To the end. Thank you very much Well, thank you,

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Jeremiah. I just want to remind you if you are watching online One thank you for joining us, but please remember to Like and subscribe

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Also, don't forget about the Q &A at the end of tonight. If you have a question, please preface it with Q so that we know it's a question and let us know who you're asking this question to either a

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K or Jeremiah but if you want to be sure that your question does get asked remember you can give through a super chat and we will

47:09

Definitely make sure that that question gets pulled up Well now we will transition into our time of rebuttals each of you will get 15 minutes to respond to each other's opening statement and And we will start with the affirmative

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Aka the floor is yours and I will start the timer as soon as you start your rebuttal All right.

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I'm pretty sure at some point the page will fly away who wants to catch All right. I appreciate this

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Jeremiah's presentation there now It is understood that he had it was not a rebuttal

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So he had no obligation to directly address any passages or arguments I made but in presenting compatibilism

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You're still left with the same conclusions. It's irrational. For example when God says about burning their children

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He says it never come upon my heart. Well It originated in his heart and compatibilism.

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I mean you still left with that implication So denying libertarian free will okay.

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I understand that he's gonna attempt to do that. That's what it's about But you still left with the irrationality When he holds people accountable for what is unchangeable we do not find that a rational concept okay, but Concerning what he said, you know, let's start some of the things he said on the end now

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He used the words permit and authorized. He said God authorizes evil and even used the word permit.

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What is God permitting? Isn't he decree and every single thing that happens? So is he permitting the very things he decrees?

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So if he's the if he unchangeably decrees whatsoever happens Then he's only permitting the very thing that he commands or the thing that he decrees.

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So that's irrational. That's that doesn't work and he said Authorizes.

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Well when you authorize somebody you're giving them the liberty to do something But yet he decreed everything that happens.

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So what is he authorizing but his own decree? You see you're still left with the irrationality of it

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And by the way, I believe you know Calvinist are great scholars and very highly intelligent people, you know

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This is a theological problem not an intellect and I don't ever mean to insinuate an intellectual problem with any foreign person

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It's a matter of the wrong theology Now let you know what what I said in my speech was that That God it's a debate about what

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God has done with his free creature or with his creature How has he made him free? Now Jeremiah said that God can't limit himself

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And he said he's immutable. Well, the immutability of God is about his character. His character doesn't change

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But what did the what does the Bible say in Jeremiah chapter 18 when I read to you the whole point of the?

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Illustration that God gave Jeremiah was the potter Changes the vessel in the middle of the work.

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Why well, what's God's explanation? Jeremiah said God, you know can't react to man.

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Well, he can't if he wants he's sovereign he could do what he wants There's nothing limiting about his character that would make him react to a creature that he allows to make choices

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But he himself does not determine Jeremiah just said that but there's no logical argument for saying why

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God can't do that. So in the potter and clay analogy What does it say in Jeremiah 18? He says if at any instance

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I speak concerning a nation to pluck it up and to destroy it if that nation Turns from its wickedness.

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I will repent of the evil that I promised. That's a reaction and that is God That is

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God judging a nation for its own choices. And that is that is God limiting himself

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In other words, he's already limited by his own word what he will do It's conditional if you do this,

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I will do this when a man makes conditions on his own actions He's limiting himself. And by the way,

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God can limit himself when it comes to libertarian free will all it means for God to limit Himself is simply he's saying

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I'm not going to determine your choice. You saying a man can do that with his with his children I'm not going to determine which of the vegetables you eat you choose or If you eat your vegetables will give you ice cream

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If you don't I won't now you could force the child to eat the vegetables But if you don't and you leave the choice up to them, are you?

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Not sovereign anymore. No, the reality is God can do that If he wants he could give you the choice and not make it for you

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What what about his character would limit him from doing that? Just just hands off and say you make the choice, but I will hold you responsible since you are the one making it

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I don't I don't get the problem and now Compatibilism now Jeremiah said and is often said that you are free

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We believe in free will they say to do your heart's desire. Are you free to do your heart's desire? I gotta ask the question

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Who chooses your heart's desire? Do you have any control over your heart's desire? no, your heart's desire is not within your control never was and So if God determines all things

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Then when they say you're free to do your heart's desire and other ways that it has been said is you're free

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But only free to sin because you're you know, you're an unregenerate sinner talking about unregenerate sinners

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To say you're free, but only free to do this. I find irrational It's like a car dealer telling you yeah, you're free to choose any color you want for this car

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But you're only free to choose black Well, that's not what freedom means and and by the way, whatever you do in your freedom is what

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God determined for you to do So what are you free to do or what does it mean to be free to do?

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What is necessarily going to be done? Well the it just simply means nothing's going to stop you from doing what you must do and The only thing that could stop you is what

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God determined to stop you And so really what it boils down to is freedom and compatibilism is God's not going to stop you from doing what he determined that You would do now

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Jeremiah. Here's some important stuff now Jeremiah talked about reasons reasons determine choices

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He said some something else too. I can't remember what it is Actually your reasons don't determine your choices now if a man steals a piece of bread because he's hungry

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His hunger is his reason and it's even an influence, but it is not Determining his choice.

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He determines his choice. You know why because he could not steal If I'm on a if I'm on if I'm fasting and I want to am

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I'm tempted to eat Well, I have a reason to eat if I want to it's because I'm hungry and I've got an influence hunger

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But I don't have to choose reasons don't determine your choices Influences don't determine your choices you determine your choices you the chooser are the only thing that determines your choices

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So they're not choice and by the way He did talk about choosing otherwise libertarian freedom is the ability to choose otherwise well

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I didn't argue that in my definition I think if you have the ability to choose other than what you chose then you have established libertarian free will but I Am focusing on the definition.

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There's nothing outside of you necessitating your choice He says that we cannot reflect

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God's attributes God is in a different category than we and thus our freedom to choose cannot be like his

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Well, I think that it can If God says here's a creature He's going to have the ability to make choices, and I'm not going to tell him which ones that I'm not going to determine

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Which ones he makes? Then we can be like God in that respect because nothing determines God's choices

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Why can't he make us like that now God could do much more? I mean, there's so much more to God than we can obviously the comparison isn't the same in every respect

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But in regards to nothing outside of us determining our choice. I believe we could be like God in that respect.

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Why not? now concerning God's foreknowledge It is this common argument that will have

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God for knows it then it really isn't a choice I mean you can't choose otherwise You know if libertarian free will is true.

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It is argued then God's foreknowledge could be falsified Well, that's not true. In fact,

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I think he may have misspoke or it may be what he understands But I would disagree with it at one point.

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He said if God for knows something Then you cannot do otherwise now the word cannot is what he said.

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I may not get it verbatim. Otherwise That's a switch of the premises Now if God knows what you will choose

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Then you will not choose not cannot but will not God just simply knows what you will choose

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But what you can choose is very different. You see think about it God knows that a

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K can choose can choose between a or B But he knows a K will choose

55:51

B Well, if he foreknows it and he can't be falsified in his foreknowledge Then it is certain that a

55:57

K will choose B But it's just as certain that a K could have chosen a because what you can do and what you will do is not the same

56:04

Thing if I have a DeLorean and I go to the Super Bowl next year and I see who wins and I come back

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I now know Who wins? But my knowledge does not determine who wins foreknowledge is not causal

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It does not determine anything just like for a past knowledge does not determine the past Future knowledge does not determine the future

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God simply knows what you will do. He also knows Simultaneously what you could have otherwise done and remember anyway all this arguing about Well, if God foreknows it then it isn't really libertarian

56:37

Lee free. You can't do otherwise and all this What did first Corinthians 10 say? Paul said that God is faithful to leave you in escape so that with the temptation you will have the ability to not

56:50

Sin, so if you succumb to temptation and sin God says you didn't have to do it

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So whatever God foreknows about what you will do The Bible says you didn't have to do it and I believe the

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Bible and I know Jeremiah does too I think he's misunderstanding it, of course now Joseph and his brothers.

57:13

Let's talk about that. For example, that's you know, so the passage in Genesis says

57:18

What Joseph says, you know what you meant for evil God meant for good in saving many people alive

57:24

That's that's that's my verse. That's my view See, I believe so what did I say about my summary view that God works out his counsel through evil and evil men?

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But that text says what I believe in libertarian freedom what you see What's what it would have to say to establish compatibilism is that God determined?

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What they willed in the whole thing when Joseph says what you meant for evil now

57:48

What Calvinism has to establish is that God determined what they meant? But it doesn't say that all it says is they meant one thing

57:55

God meant another that's my view because it is man Who's doing his own purposing and intending?

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But in cow and Calvinism God determines what they meant and what he meant and really so God is really determining both so really the full truth of Genesis 50 of compatibilism or true

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God Joseph would say What you meant for evil was actually your what you intended and your purposes were actually determined by God So God is actually doing both.

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So what's the point of what Joseph is saying? No, Joseph is saying despite what you meant

58:29

God worked out his good and now that's my view See, I believe that God does that and I do believe

58:34

God determined the the atonement He determined for a Syria to destroy and punish

58:40

Israel and he determined for what happened with Joseph and his brothers God does not need to determine your will in order to accomplish his own

58:48

Just look at Jonah Jonah did not will to do what God wanted him to do God got him there anyway, and even in the end of the story, you know the story

58:55

Jonah still wasn't happy in the end of it. So even then Jonah wasn't really on board with what

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God wanted But he did it anyway because God knows how to get you there. God knows how to do it He doesn't have to determine your will and I do believe he's all -powerful

59:09

So Remember that in Genesis 50 that 50 51 I can't remember when it says you what you meant for evil

59:17

God meant for good, but it does not say God determined their purposes or their intentions

59:23

That's what you need for Calvinism. Otherwise, you just got what we all agree with So let's not spend time on what we agree with we have to find texts that establish the unique Our signature attributes of Cal reform theology.

59:36

That's the point Now Going back to what I said about God limiting himself and he said well, what about in the incarnation?

59:45

Well, I think that's I'm glad he brought that up God Jesus is certainly sovereign now

59:50

Jesus created all things that certainly makes him sovereign and He did limit himself in the incarnation when he took upon human nature.

59:58

He's limited. He doesn't have to do that How does the creator of the universe get tired fall asleep?

01:00:06

How does he die, you know Muslims are always having this debate with Christians if you've ever watched the Muslims debate

01:00:11

James White Let's say well God can't die. How could Jesus die if he's God on and on it goes because God is limiting himself.

01:00:19

It is the self limitation of God and he could do whatever he wants now. God can't take away There are certain attributes about God that he can't take away.

01:00:27

He can't take away his self -existence. He just exists of his self by the way

01:00:33

Jeremiah asked well, how does God foreknow the future? Well the implication of what he's saying and of course, I'm not trying to misrepresent to him

01:00:39

He could say differently if I'm misrepresenting him, but the implication of the argument is if God doesn't determine the future

01:00:45

How does he know it? Well, that's one thing that Calvinist and Open theist have in common that God can't know free creatures choices of the future unless he determines that I disagree

01:00:55

But the question how does God foreknow it in that case? Oh, I don't know. I don't know how he know I don't believe he looks ahead into the future either.

01:01:02

That's not my view. I don't know how God is self -existent I don't know how he created things from nothing. I don't know

01:01:08

So you got me on that one. I don't know how he knows the future, but we've all agreed that he does of course but back to my point

01:01:16

God can limit himself if he wants to he did it in the Incarnation the fact that the Son of God can be tired and and allow himself.

01:01:24

It's kind of like somebody You know, you know playing a child at chess or something and he takes his own

01:01:31

Queen away or takes pieces away or he could place limitations on himself to Make the the playing field equal and in Jesus case.

01:01:40

It was to live the experience of humanity And so the self -limitation of God anyway when it comes to free will is just what

01:01:47

I said He just simply said I'm not going to make a choice for you, but then he holds you responsible otherwise in Calvinism God holds man responsible for what

01:01:56

God controls and decides But I just remind you the text. What about the Potter analogy in Jeremiah chapter 18?

01:02:03

God is saying I will change what I said How about 1st Samuel chapter 23?

01:02:10

I believe where David is in Goliath and he finds out that Saul is going to come and kill him He says

01:02:15

God is Saul going to come and God says he will come and he says will the people hand me over God says they

01:02:21

Won't hand you over and so David flees. So here's an example where God knows what is going to happen, but it changes because David based upon the information changes

01:02:33

I'm out of time Thank you. Aka. We will now hear from the negative.

01:02:40

Jeremiah has 15 minutes for his rebuttal All right.

01:02:51

I got 15 minutes. Let's see what we can do what I heard over and over and over again is

01:02:56

Jeremiah it's irrational for me to make a choice a decision and intention if God determined it well, of course, that's irrational if you

01:03:06

Assume incompatibilism. I have not heard one argument in favor of incompatibilism

01:03:13

I've heard him beg the question in favor of incompatibilism, but that's not an argument And so I do want to address a number of things that he says

01:03:21

The verses but all of my arguments all five arguments He did exactly what

01:03:27

I thought he would do. So I want to go through that but Jonah comes to mind first. So what's the purpose of God determining?

01:03:35

Jonah to be mad and and be resistive and to go all the way into the belly of a well for three days and get

01:03:43

Spit up back on land. Well, I'll tell you God's intention for all of it It was to reflect the gospel was it not?

01:03:49

Matthew 12 says you have been given a sign the sign of Jonah. We see

01:03:54

God's purpose Do we not it's to reflect the gospel and Jesus confirms that I will give you a sign as the sign of Jonah So yes down to every thought and detail of Jonah was predetermined now

01:04:06

If you say that doesn't make sense it well, it doesn't make sense if you just assume incompatibilism

01:04:12

I assume Compatibilism so I don't have these problems that he does he's gonna have to do what's called an internal critique

01:04:19

He's got to step inside my worldview grant these parameters and show logical in Logical contradictions and so that was the purpose of my opening for arguments to show internal contradictions he misunderstood the for our the for knowledge argument, by the way, because I realize you can say if you choose a if we

01:04:40

Assume categorical ability, which he equivocated categorical ability with conditional ability multiple times

01:04:47

But if we just assume categorical ability, then God knows what you're gonna do.

01:04:52

I'm saying yes Let's grant that God infallibly knows what you will do and what you did do and then

01:04:58

God spoke the world into existence Oh Because at the moment of choice, which this is key for libertarian free will at the moment of choice you cannot

01:05:09

Choose categorically to do otherwise you're locked in at that point now,

01:05:15

I will say libertarian free will The incompatibilists have more in common with the open theist

01:05:21

Because they deny that it's totally impossible for God to determine your choices and for you to be generally held accountable

01:05:27

For your choices as well. So I just want to say there's a lot that he has in common with the open theist

01:05:33

I think they're being more consistent at that point, but that's okay. Um, I want to address the

01:05:41

The Jeremiah passage with the the potter and the clay God does not react to man

01:05:48

Listen, not like how another man reacts to another man. He did what I said earlier. He commits the fallacy of unification

01:05:55

This is what happens when you say God's choice and man's choice are the same you get into all of these problems

01:06:00

That's an irrationality on Incompatibilism, what do I mean? What does it mean when God says if you do this you'll repent.

01:06:08

Well God has given us Conditional ability if you repent then this judgment will not come upon you.

01:06:15

This is not God in his character changing I'm glad he said the character of God is immutable But God's nature is not changing his deity his on toss is not changing and I want to address the incarnation

01:06:28

Now it sounds like he is saying that this is a limitation a Subtraction by addition and I'm like,

01:06:35

I don't understand this train of thought because we start saying Jesus the second person the

01:06:40

Trinity added Humanity to his nature. That's not a limitation Jesus was still

01:06:45

God there was nothing in his deity. That was limited. Jesus is the God man

01:06:51

This is an addition not a subtraction unless you want to say it's addition by subtraction so That's that's not that's that's irrational.

01:06:59

It's not a limitation of God It's literally an addition There was a number of verses that AK talked about.

01:07:07

I really like Jeremiah 19 5 was it that the the Pagan worship and child sacrifice list.

01:07:15

I like the translation that he read from this does not come from the heart of God Okay, so we in Compatibilism, we don't see a problem here because I believe he's unificating once again on the will of God We hold to God has a decreed of will he has an exhaustive purpose of everything that comes to pass but everything that he decrees to happen doesn't

01:07:38

Represent his heart in a loving way that we can understand as a parent. It pains us to spank our children

01:07:45

We don't want to do it. We don't delight in those things, but we do it because it's necessary God is working out all things together after the council of his will for his glory

01:07:55

And so yes, God does decree certain things this that does not reflect his loving kind heart

01:08:03

So I just want to appreciate the translation because some of the translation say God didn't decree it or it never came into his mind

01:08:09

But unless you're gonna give up knowledge Then in some way it originated in God's mind

01:08:14

But like a K would agree God had a purpose in declaring a world for evil to exist so There's a lot more things that he can that we can get into I just want to highlight a few more things

01:08:29

And so this will come out more in the cross -examination questions But he literally did so many things that I wasn't sure if he would do

01:08:38

But he assumes a type of ability with man You can choose otherwise if you tell your son to do something you you assume that he can do it

01:08:47

You're not gonna force him. Well, I'm saying you've not qualified what kind of ability and what kind of choice?

01:08:53

You can't just assume your position and say the other one is irrational because I say, of course man has

01:08:59

Conditional ability I can do a if I want to or I could do

01:09:04

B if I want to And so I'm sure we'll get into the bondage of the will and man's desire and intention

01:09:11

But there's another thing and to me this is really interesting I hope we get into it more but he says reasons influences do not determine your choice.

01:09:20

I Literally think this is irrational Animals do not deliberate.

01:09:25

They do not have The ability to reason and weigh options and then make a choice and a lot of that They simply respond to their nature.

01:09:33

The difference is for us. Our nature does play a determining factor but if you have a buffet of Influences and reasons and evidences one is going to necessitate

01:09:44

Your your outcome your choice and that choice is going to necessitate determine your actions

01:09:50

Okay, what I think a K is doing is saying well I can't let God be the effectual cause of all things that but that belongs to man and he's assuming this

01:09:59

Categorical ability that's a tall order to say you need that. I'm saying you need a more modest

01:10:06

Conditional ability if you want to the difference between Categorical and conditional is all things considered equal inside and out.

01:10:15

I can choose a I can choose B in order to be morally accountable That's categorical ability.

01:10:20

That's what he's assuming every time He says the word free and I'm saying but he but in philosophy we understand there's something called conditional ability

01:10:29

That's entailed already in categorical ability Conditional ability is if if you want to if you make a

01:10:36

Determination a plan to do X that right there is where moral ability rests If you want to do this, then you will do it and you'll be held morally responsible

01:10:44

And if he just says that doesn't make sense Jeremiah, I'm like if you assume incompatibilism

01:10:49

It doesn't make sense, but it doesn't it makes perfect sense and compatibilistic freewill because God is

01:10:56

Determining eternal choices and decisions and that is different than man's and so something else he did with all of his earthly parables

01:11:06

Illustrations, which is fine to do but there's always continuity and discontinuity And when you assume the way that humans treat one another with God, then you obliterate the creator creation

01:11:18

Distinction and so I do not believe that God can change like man

01:11:24

He is saying God can react to man's decisions choices And what he's doing is unificating and saying like humans do with one another

01:11:31

We're talking about the creator of the universe who's transcendent He is almighty and so we need to define these terms more

01:11:41

And so this is another big part of the debate this evening is he I'm glad he says this

01:11:47

But but libertarian freewill is a result of God's self -limiting and the way he frames

01:11:52

It is saying that God can limit his choices so you can make your own well is

01:11:58

God limiting an Omnipotent choice is God's limitless power

01:12:04

Being limited. I would say that is a blatant contradiction if God is truly

01:12:11

Omnipotent then that cannot be limited. That's why the incarnation is not a limitation

01:12:16

Jesus is taking the step into the position of the incarnation So he can actually pray to the father the father is greater than I this is not a limitation

01:12:26

But Jesus is showing us what true humility looks like What he needs as a true limitation is for the triune

01:12:34

God to categorically limit their ability In order to make this categorical choice of man, so I don't think it can be done

01:12:44

Let's see See I was good with 10 minutes, but we got 15 minutes now

01:12:52

Let's see here He mentioned Matthew 23 verse 37 that basically says

01:13:02

Israel Was not willing to choose Jesus of course not even though I do believe in the irresistible grace

01:13:10

But this assumes that man's disposition his heart his will Naturally is born in opposition to God and resist him

01:13:18

Man resists God at every point in turn from the time that he is born until the

01:13:24

Holy Spirit comes into their heart changes it Regenerates and God works through their will not against their will so There's no contradiction in Matthew 23.

01:13:36

Oh, I'm so glad I found this 2nd Peter 3 9 Definitely want to talk about the context here for just a moment

01:13:43

And I want to talk about the word patient so 2nd Peter 3 9 says

01:13:50

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness

01:13:55

But is patient towards you not wishing that any should perish But that all should reach repentance now

01:14:03

I'll deal with the word patient What is he being patient for if God has decreed everything well in compatibilism?

01:14:09

We reckon this we recognize the distinction between God's decreed of will and Man's perspective within time and space so it is okay for us to say well

01:14:21

God permitted this God Allowed this to happen that is compatible with God's decreed of will now if you just assume

01:14:30

Incompatibilism you say that doesn't make sense he's allowing what he already decreed Jerma yeah, but from man's perspective permission allowance is

01:14:37

Anthropomorphic we can truly say God allowed this to happen God permitted

01:14:42

Satan to tempt Job Was it also decreed it well? Yeah? I'm a compatibilist.

01:14:48

I don't see the same problem that he has he's Unificating between the will of the creature with the will of the

01:14:54

Creator and when you do that yeah You have all kinds of problems And so the word patient God is patient that none

01:15:02

He is patient for the time when the elect will come to saving faith There's no contradiction from our experience.

01:15:09

We see that God is not executing judgment immediately. He's waiting all but Jeremiah He's just waiting for a decree.

01:15:15

Yeah, that's compatible We don't see a problem, but when you assume categorical ability without proving it you have problems man has

01:15:24

Conditional ability to choose if he wants to do this he'll do it if he doesn't want to do that then he won't

01:15:30

That's the kind of freedom that us as creatures have in this created world and so I don't believe a

01:15:38

K tried to say that God wants all to repent and the categorical sense maybe you did but you have to ask the question who's the any the you and the all referring to and So earlier in verse 8 it says the beloved when he tells us in verse 1 now

01:15:54

I write to you a second letter that I'm writing to you beloved He's talking to Christians in the opening verses of his first letter.

01:16:01

He's talking about the elect of God God is not He's not slacking his promises because he is going to save those who he intends to save yeah people don't like hearing that I get

01:16:14

It that's a hard concept to wrap your mind around But if God is eternal then his choices are of a different kind than ours

01:16:22

And I want you to understand when he says that God knows what you would do Then when he creates this world the moment of your choice can not

01:16:33

Change and that is imperative for the principle of libertarian free will that you have the categorical ability all things being equal

01:16:40

Inside and outside of yourself you have the ability to choose. Otherwise, I'm saying wow That's a tall order and I'm glad he actually said

01:16:48

Influences and reasons do not determine your choice. I think that's irrational

01:16:54

So think about this if you and I know I kind of touched on this point earlier. There's an influence that Necessitates your choice

01:17:02

Unless you do not think that humans can formalize their position or their decision -making

01:17:09

I'm saying everything has a cause and effect Everything can be explained all the way back to God now

01:17:16

He agrees with that in principle, but I'm saying why did you choose a why did you choose

01:17:21

B? And then if he falls back on the conditional answer I'm saying that's all that is necessary because you wanted to Because you reasoned to you thought that was the best decision then that is all that's necessary for moral responsibility and so Coming up here in a little bit.

01:17:37

I hope that we talk about or we hear an argument for incompatibilism I hope we hear an argument for categorical ability without just assuming it but I'm enjoying this

01:17:47

I didn't know how this exchange was gonna go down, but I'm excited for the cross -examination because it's the best part of debate

01:17:55

Well, thank you Jeremiah we will now have a five minute intermission for those of you that need to use the restroom in the back or you just want to get a drink we will take a five minute break and for those of you that are online now is a good time for you to get your popcorn and Remember to write down your questions for the

01:18:13

Q &A and we will be back in just a moment All right.

01:27:00

Well, welcome back. If y 'all want to make your way back in here We're gonna get started with the next portion of tonight, which is cross

01:27:08

Examinations, this is the fun part this is when we This is what we all look forward to where we can go back and forth

01:27:15

And the way this is going to be structured tonight is that each gentleman is going to get 25 minutes

01:27:21

Obviously we start with the affirmative Aka will get 25 minutes to ask his opponent questions.

01:27:27

They can use their allotted time However, they say see fit But this goes without being said and I know both of you well enough to know that you will but let's keep it cordial Gentlemen, and and this will not be a time for questions from the audience

01:27:43

This is a question time between the two of them So we will start with the affirmative aka you may begin your cross

01:27:52

X. You have 25 minutes All right So I'm gonna start my questions with some of the things that you kind of said at the end

01:28:00

And I'm gonna do my best not to spend a whole lot of time on one question I have a big problem with that see how it goes though All right now, so you were talking about permitting and you said well from a human perspective

01:28:10

It's okay to say that and you said well that a case says what is he permitting but what he decrees?

01:28:16

Okay, so I agree with you that it is okay for us to say that But now is it true that what he's permitting is the very things that he himself causes?

01:28:26

Yeah, so how a compatibilist would account for that is in the human experience. It's anthropomorphic

01:28:32

So God from God's perspective. It's not a permission. It's a decree from man's perspective

01:28:38

Ah, God is allowing that now. I think it's compatible. God also ordained it, but I don't assume incompatibilism at the onset right well, so Normally the normal usage of permit is when you permit somebody else to do something that they themselves are wanting to do but If God is determining the things himself and and you just said that he's permitting what he what he himself causes

01:29:05

So just taking away the anthropomorphic language then really he's he's not permitting really right?

01:29:12

He's not permitting at all. So from the Calvinist compatibilist perspective that is key

01:29:17

Anthropomorphic and like you just said typically Permission means human to human interaction.

01:29:23

So when God interacts with man, this is Anthropomorphic and we can truly say

01:29:29

God is permitting this action Well, right, but using figurative language, but if you don't use figurative language, then he's not really permitting.

01:29:37

It's anthropomorphic from the compatibilist Well, I agree, but I'm saying if you don't use the figurative language, then he's not permitting, right?

01:29:44

If you assume incompatibilism, there's a problem. Well, just assume in your view I mean if you take away the figurative language and let's speak literally

01:29:51

He's you wouldn't say that he permits. He's just causing so I agree with literal because I can permit my child to do something

01:29:58

But when God permits this is a relationship of a different kind So compatibilism would say both are compatible with one another

01:30:06

God can eternally decree and man can have a temporal experience well, right, but but if you don't use the

01:30:14

And so my position has always been you know, if you just say yes, he doesn't really permit. We just say it figuratively fine

01:30:20

I just want it to be kind of up front. So Literally speaking. He's not permitting anything because he caused the things

01:30:27

I would disagree with the assumption of the question because I would not unificate the will of the Creature with the

01:30:34

Creator so I don't see a problem And like I said, I think the initial problem is the assumption of incompatibilism

01:30:40

Okay, so let me look at the premises of the question so God does determine all things that happen

01:30:46

So the things that you say figuratively that he permits if you take away the figurative language You just said you deny that he causes it.

01:30:54

But which premise do you deny? I deny the assumption of incompatibilism

01:30:59

So a compatibilism would say both are compatibly true scripture teaches both and there's no contradiction

01:31:05

Say it let's say that both are true, but you said it's not true that Literally speaking.

01:31:12

He's not permitting and you said that You denied that he's not permitting but causing but it is true that he's causing the things, right?

01:31:20

Yes. Well, so ultimately the truth is that he's permitting what he causes So how a compatibilist would understand both of that is to say yes

01:31:30

God determines all things that come to pass eternally and that we as humans

01:31:35

Truly can say in our experience in spacetime God permitted that and that's literally true that is anthropomorphic language can be literally true because that is how we interact with humans and that can be

01:31:49

Anthropomorphic as we describe our relationship with God anthropomorphism doesn't say it's not literally true It truly is but in an anthropomorphic way

01:31:56

Well anthropomorphic language is figurative language to express something that is true, but it would be true that He's not permitting because he's causing

01:32:07

I mean you don't permit the things that you cause we Compatibilist to know that that's actually a problem

01:32:13

So but just you would say yes, he's not permitting but causing we would say yes

01:32:18

God eternally decrees and our experience Experiences that permission right I get that but I mean so you you say it can't be answered or the yes or no

01:32:26

I'm guessing well, it depends. So just let me ask you like this Is it true that?

01:32:33

What you say figuratively that he's permitting In reality is just what he's causing.

01:32:41

I would say both are true. Both are compatible with one of them Okay, so both the truth and yes, he's permitting what he's causing. Yes Okay So then when

01:32:47

I said so I was true when I said in my debate what is God permitting but the very things he causes Then you would say yeah, okay was right and we would say and there's no contradiction

01:32:57

Okay. Okay next question now So you try to say yes or no,

01:33:03

I'm trying hey listen, sir So and let me ask this

01:33:09

Now you kept saying this has been a big thing with you You keep saying that well a K assumes when

01:33:14

I say that what you're teaching is Irrational you say well a K is just saying it's irrational because he's assuming incompatibilism

01:33:21

Okay, so I want you to make it rational for me. So in 1st Corinthians chapter 10 The Bible says that according to God's faithfulness if you sin you had a way not to sin if you do now

01:33:33

Here's my question if determinism is true and that's your view Could you not have sinned when you do sin?

01:33:39

We have a conditional ability So so I want to say there was an assumption That you're saying that do we have the categorical ability to choose what we want to do?

01:33:48

I'm saying no you saw the if you said it if you choose to sin or if you choose to not give in to temptation

01:33:55

There's a way in escape. That's conditional. I think that's all that's necessary for moral accountability Not this categorical ability that you're assuming is

01:34:04

Necessary for human responsibility. Okay, so can a man choose the conditional choice of taking out this of escape?

01:34:13

He can choose it when God determines that he yes The compatibility is no contradiction because conditionally he has the ability to fall into temptation

01:34:21

If he lets that happen if he deliberates and chooses sin Or if he desires not to and chooses to love

01:34:27

Jesus more than that sin Then he can choose that it's a difference between conditional ability versus categorical.

01:34:33

Well, just any ability I mean can the man can the man the only ability we exercise when we choose to send that same ability

01:34:41

Which is the one is talking about the same ability used to sin. Can you use that same ability to do other than what

01:34:47

God determined? That that's categorical Billy not conditional. Well, I just I'm talking about the same ability that you choose to sin

01:34:55

Can you use that say because that's the ability it's only talking about one ability Can you use that same ability to do other than what

01:35:00

God decreed that you would do? No, that's the assumption of incompatibilism Well, just the text says that you will be able to endure it.

01:35:07

Do you believe that you have the ability to endure conditionally? Yes. Okay, so a man can do other than what he not categorically.

01:35:14

Well, is there any human power at all? I mean you keep distinguishing abilities Ultimately, the only ability that matters is the one that you could exercise to be judged by the ability.

01:35:25

Let me ask this The ability that you use for which those choices will cause you judgment and to be guilty

01:35:32

Can you exercise that ability to do other than what God determined that you would do?

01:35:38

No, man does not have categorical ability. He has conditional ability and the compatibilist sees no Contradiction.

01:35:43

Well you say that but that's that's the part I find irrational. I understand So, but I mean I'm asking so the category explain to me in simple words

01:35:50

What you mean by a category categorical ability you may contrast it with conditional Well, just give me a simple definition like it's the ability to do

01:35:57

X all things being equal inside and outside of your choice with reasons and Influences I have the ability to choose a or not a now additional ability says

01:36:09

I want to choose a because of reasons because I want to but if the if is key the difference between categorical and Conditional is all and if and the compatibilist is making the more modest claim that all you need is if for moral accountability

01:36:25

If you desire to choose a then you choose a if you desire to choose B Then you choose

01:36:30

B. That's conditional not categorical. Okay, so if a man So you're saying a man has a conditional ability to choose not to sin if in a situation where he sent

01:36:39

Yes, but if God determined that he was sin, can he? Can he utilize the conditional ability to then choose other than what

01:36:47

God determined that's not the definition of conditional But what I'm asking is which ability controls the decision conditional, okay, so then if conditional ability controls the decision then

01:37:01

He can control his decision to do other than what God determined that he would know that's incompatible is a menu

01:37:07

You assumed a categorical ability not consistent with a conditional. Well, I don't think I'm assuming anything I mean the whole point of the text say if you sin you didn't have to but if God causally determines what you will do

01:37:19

Then is there any real power for you to exercise and do otherwise? Yes real conditional ability of choosing according to what you want to do

01:37:27

And so if not all things considered if you choose to sin and succumb to temptation

01:37:33

Then that's what's gonna happen. If you choose to resist sin, then you won't that's all that's sufficient for you

01:37:41

You said you could do you could choose what you want who determines what you want Compatibilism that says

01:37:46

God determines and man determines but just not in the same way But when you can unificate between those then you have problems.

01:37:52

Okay, but what man determines is What God determines for him determined, right? Both are compatible.

01:37:57

Well, that's fine But I'm asked is it would you affirm that what man determines must be what

01:38:03

God determines? What man conditionally chooses is compatible with what God is eternally chosen. So would you say that's a yes?

01:38:09

God does determine what man determines? Yes Okay, so then God is to so if man does what he wants

01:38:16

I'm gonna say yes, I got you Okay, so if you as you said a conditional ability man can choose what he wants

01:38:23

But what he wants you say God determines so even in conditional ability He will only choose what God determined for him to want which is compatible with what he chooses that he wants to do

01:38:31

So but would you say that it is true that therefore from what you have answered income in conditional ability?

01:38:37

He must choose what God determined for him to choose Yes God is the ultimate cause of all things and he uses the secondary means of genuine true moral accountable choices of man

01:38:49

Right, which are unchangeable and there's no contradiction Well, that's I deny that but my point is so we've established

01:38:56

I want to make sure understand You said that in conditional choices man can choose what he wants

01:39:02

But what he wants is determined by God and he can't it's unchangeable. So in a conditional ability

01:39:11

It there's he cannot actually wouldn't be true He cannot choose other than what God determined that he would do right and that's compatibilism and there's no contradiction

01:39:19

So we don't assume a problem with that. Well, I know you I know Calvin I see I'm well aware of Calvinist don't see a problem.

01:39:25

I think everybody else does but that's because we're determined to do Well, my point though is

01:39:31

I just want to establish what you're saying because you know, I find it difficult this

01:39:36

I find this to be the problem so often. So is there a human power? that Where a man can utilize to choose other than what

01:39:46

God determined he would choose. No, okay man does not have categorical ability well any ability that he has whatever you want to call it does he have any ability where he can utilize and Actualize to do other than what

01:39:58

God determined he would do No Man chooses what he wants to do. That's conditional on what he wants deliberates

01:40:06

I deny that man doesn't have formal cause I believe there's influences. There's reasons evidences and one

01:40:15

Necessitates man's choice. Do you disagree with that because you affirm categorical ability? I'm saying the more modest thing is no conditional ability does recognize a chain of causes in all causes

01:40:26

Go back to God as the press the principle of sufficient reason Yeah, so what you said it again, you said man can choose what he wants

01:40:33

But what he wants is determined by God man So ultimately he chooses what God determines for him to choose right man conditionally chooses what he wants and that is compatible with what

01:40:40

God Is eternally well when you say compatible you just mean it is what God wants Well, what it's saying what we're saying is we don't see a contradiction you've right you but that wasn't my question

01:40:49

My question was does you said that it's compatible But what I'm asking you beyond what compatible it is what

01:40:56

God determines for him to make Yeah So but I would ask you to explain what you mean by determined is

01:41:02

God Determining the same way that man determines choices. Did you say they're one -to -one the same? No, but okay

01:41:08

But that's what I'm saying. However, man determines Whatever man does it will necessitate from God's determination of his choice

01:41:17

Yes, it will necessarily come to pass that man will choose what he wants and God has chosen everything that comes to pass in the

01:41:24

World that he created. Okay, so ultimately You said man will choose what he wants You said that's conditional deletion.

01:41:32

You've got it, but God determines what he wants Differently than man. Yeah, but nevertheless true. Yes, so even his conditional ability is

01:41:42

Held to the decision of man predetermined. Yes, but so so it goes back to what I was asking you Man is only making choices that God predetermines for him to make you're not gonna like my answer

01:41:52

But yes, God chooses differently the man eternally Unchangeably and man conditionally chooses according to what he wants to do and I think you cannot read

01:42:03

Libertarian free will into that passage. Well, I think you can but that's not my you said it again

01:42:08

You said man chooses what he wants to do But why don't you just go the extra step and say which is what

01:42:13

God determines for him to want? I thought that's why I was doing this whole time Well, but instead of just saying what he wants to do because you're just you're pushing it out one extra step

01:42:21

But just go ahead and take the extra step He's doing what God determined for him to do God determines things and man also determines things and they work together

01:42:29

Because God does not determine the same way that man determines But this is the thing if Incompatibilism were true in the way that God determines is the same way that man determines.

01:42:39

I do think there's a contradiction Well, I mean, I'm not asking if it's the same. I mean I could agree with you that it's different It doesn't matter to me.

01:42:45

The ultimate point is God's determination is the controlling factor Is that not right?

01:42:51

100 % okay. So then the 100 % man has no power to choose other than what God determines

01:42:57

Categorically no conditionally. Yes, but it's my statement true Depends I felt like you're unificating on what man can do.

01:43:03

Okay, any any take any ability? Is there any power that man can utilize and actualize that will make his choice different than what

01:43:10

God determined for him to do? No, man does not have categorical Efficient causation. Okay.

01:43:15

So in other words you would say yes man has no ability that he can actualize

01:43:21

To do other than what God determined for him to do right man does not have categorical ability Okay, so then when he chooses to sin he did not have any ability that he could have exercised to do other than sin

01:43:32

Well, he had conditional ability, but you just said that he had no ability that could do other than what

01:43:37

God said Well this whole time maybe I got confused with the question because I've been saying that man does not have

01:43:42

Categorical ability that does cause problems man has conditional Compatibilistic ability to choose what he wants which is determined by God.

01:43:51

So ultimately he's just choosing what God determined, right? They're compatible Well, when you say compatible you just made it is what

01:43:57

God determined. I mean sure that's compatible because it's the same thing Wouldn't you agree? Yes, that's compatible. God determines differently than man.

01:44:03

So two things being equal are compatible We all agree with that two things being equal That sounds like categorical ability because we do not think all things being equal at the moment

01:44:11

No I'm saying if what he determines what man chooses according to what he wants is simply what

01:44:16

God determined for him to choose then Sure, that's compatible. I agree with that. He's doing what

01:44:21

God determined There's no irrationality in saying that man then therefore is not morally accountable for his decision.

01:44:27

That's the well I think there is but I haven't asked about that yet. Okay, so but I Think you did get confused with my question because I asked is there any ability man has where he could utilize?

01:44:38

To do other than what God determined and then later you said well he has the categorical so you would say Yeah, I didn't say categorical, but I do think

01:44:45

I misunderstood I mean conditional man has conditional ability which does not thwart God's ultimate purposes

01:44:51

Well that assumes of course that God's purpose is to determine what you want, but that's not my question my question is is there any ability man has to exercise and can utilize

01:45:02

To do other than what God is determined. He would do no Okay So the text says if he says he could have done otherwise you say he had no ability to do

01:45:09

Otherwise I say this man has conditional ability. So he does have an ability Yes conditional

01:45:14

But I just asked you if he had any ability to do differently than what God determined to utilize

01:45:19

To do other than what God said he could do. No God man does not have Categorical ability.

01:45:25

I feel like we're well, okay. So either either he has Okay, my question is does he have any ability?

01:45:31

So he either it's either yes He does have some ability or no, he does not have any ability. It's either one or the other

01:45:37

So I just asked my question again, you can answer how you are. Sure. Does he have time here as finest?

01:45:42

It's not I'm just pressing. That's the way it goes Does man have any ability that includes conditional anything that he could utilize to choose

01:45:54

To not sin when God determines that he would sin God or man does not have any ability to do other than what

01:46:04

God is eternally decreed So is that does that sound like a yes, I think I think well does not have any okay that any ability includes conditional

01:46:13

Well can but what does conditional mean? What does it matter you said it does it does well, you could ask me you can ask me

01:46:20

But what I'm telling you is you've called it a conditional ability. So I'm including that in the any yeah But it matters though.

01:46:26

You said it doesn't matter. I said it doesn't well You can it can matter then if it matters say no, then yes, he does have an ability man does have

01:46:33

Conditional ability, but the conditional ability cannot thwart God's overriding. Well, I didn't say it was thwarted.

01:46:39

I said In your definition of thwarted just simply means he cannot exercise it to choose other than what

01:46:44

God determines, right? Okay, but so the so this text says he has some ability to do other than when you when you agree

01:46:52

Well, I read it says He will not allow you to be tempted beyond which you are able

01:46:58

That's an ability and that he will provide the way of escape also so that you will be able to endure it

01:47:03

You don't you say the text doesn't say that you have an ability to endure it that text the same man does have a

01:47:09

Type of ability and I would say it's conditional but you said he didn't have any ability

01:47:14

To do other than what God determined for him to do, right? I think I think we're talking past each other.

01:47:20

I disagree I think okay. I think your answer is erroneous. But of course, I will say that right? You know the audience

01:47:26

I gotta see how long I took on one question. Sorry. I was trying to say yes No, that's fine, okay, so now

01:47:36

In the Jeremiah passage 1905 yeah, that's it. God said the sacrifice of the children ever come upon his heart.

01:47:44

Isn't it true though that in your theology? It originated in his heart. No So who decreed it?

01:47:50

The triune God. All right I'm final that answer but but can I say one last thing not what you want him in reformed theology

01:47:57

We would distinguish between the decreed of will and the revealed will of God a part of the revealed will of God is saying yes

01:48:04

I decree certain things That does not give me pleasure in a way that you can understand what joy and pleasure looks like Well, the text just says it didn't come upon his heart.

01:48:13

I mean either it did or it didn't we're interpreting it So yeah, the text says what it says we both agree with that, but we may interpret it, right?

01:48:19

But your interpretation says it originated in his heart. I denied that I think in the mind of God it was there

01:48:25

But I don't think it expresses his heart in ways that we can understand But the only reason it's occurring is because he decided it would happen

01:48:33

I think it's differently than saying according to his heart. Would you agree that if he eternally if he was the first person to think about them doing it

01:48:44

Decrees unchangeably that they will do it and The reason they do it is because of the means he brought about for them to do it that isn't originating in his heart.

01:48:53

No Okay, I'll let the audience decide that sir. Okay, so This well, let's see here in Proverbs 16 9 it says the heart of man plans his way, but Yahweh directs his steps

01:49:07

Would it be also true that in your theology? He has also planning the way of a man's heart? Yes, God is eternally created whatever comes to pass and man

01:49:15

Conditionally can choose what he plans to do and I think that's what that text says man makes temporal choices. God makes eternal choices

01:49:20

Well, I don't say nothing about temporal. It doesn't say anything about time. It just contrasts what God does So ultimately it's just saying

01:49:27

God determines all things is ultimately what it says Denied that conclusion. Well, if God is determining what he does and what man does that's not the same as him determining

01:49:34

Oh, wait, did you say ultimately determines all things? Yeah. Okay. Well, I didn't say ultimately but that ultimately

01:49:40

But that doesn't negate that there can be moral accountability in space -time. Okay, so that's good

01:49:46

I want to spend my last few minutes on that So you would do you affirm that God holds man responsible for what he controls and decides it depends what you mean

01:49:53

Control, but yes what he decides in other words in other words

01:50:02

Only possibility of what can happen is his decision. Yes. God has ultimate

01:50:07

Determining factors of what's gonna occur in the world that he created and it's necessary, right? It's unchangeable from God's perspective

01:50:14

It's a guarantee. Well in reality, I mean forget about human perspective. Is it true that it is unchanging my human perspective?

01:50:20

No, I'm asking you to just affirm. Is it a reality or not that it is unchangeable. It is a reality

01:50:26

Please don't hate me, but it is a reality that's going to take place exactly how God purposed right?

01:50:32

So in other words God is holding God's control is the one that determines it and makes it happen at all

01:50:37

That is the definition of divine determinants. Okay, so then man is being held responsible for what

01:50:43

God controls Okay, can you name any other aspect of life where you will hold somebody else responsible for what they cannot control?

01:50:50

I mean when I interact with man and what that looks like and then press that on my relationship with God No, I don't think that is one -to -one the same.

01:50:57

I think it's analogous. Well, no, I'm asking about I just asking Is there any other aspect of human? I will tell you this because whatever there is one example

01:51:04

Okay that I think is good, but there's continuity and discontinuity All right I think a person can write a story and Be morally free to do so with murder evil gross things and they are ultimately responsible for the story

01:51:16

They wrote but it's not wrong for them to do that They can use secondary means like in a

01:51:21

Harry Potter of all the evil I don't don't want to give spoilers, but when Voldemort killed

01:51:27

Harry Potter's parents He was wrong for doing that But the the human writer also is responsible for that in a different way

01:51:34

But the author of the book is the author of everything that happens Yes, so sin happens in God's book.

01:51:41

Is he the author of it? He's not the effectual author is he the author in what sense are using the word same author is the way you use the analogy

01:51:48

I'm asking you is he the author of what happens in the book like your analogy? So I would say in this way, there is continuity and discontinuity

01:51:58

The the person that writes the book is the author of the book and God And I would just quote

01:52:05

Isaiah here in a little bit, but he declares the end all the way from the beginning

01:52:10

I bet we'll talk a little bit about the middle there. But yes, there's continuity. Okay, but if I can't I'm my bad

01:52:15

My bad. Is he the author of what happens in his book? Yes, so when we say he's the author of sin and you guys disagree you would say stop disagreeing

01:52:24

No, I would just say we need to talk about what we mean by author. Well, I mean, it's your analogy though I mean there's continuity and discontinuity

01:52:31

But does that mean he's the author? Yes God is the author of his creation Which means he's the author of sin in his book not the effectual author be authorizes it to exist

01:52:39

Well, but the author of a book doesn't authorize it. He actually don't authorize it No, he doesn't authorize it.

01:52:44

He just writes it and it's he's the author of it So would God not be the author of sin in that analogy? Is that person wrong from writing that book?

01:52:52

If he could make it a reality. Yes. Oh, yeah, you can't ask me questions now I'll do the same thing

01:53:04

This is fun we are now going to reset the clock and give the negative 25 minutes for his cross examination

01:53:14

Jeremiah you can begin My first question is has anyone ever called you a k -47?

01:53:23

Yes. Okay. I like it So we're talking you quoted the Westminster earlier

01:53:28

And the lun 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith says God from all eternity

01:53:34

Has decreed whatsoever comes to pass. Would you say this is a form of divine determinism?

01:53:43

Yeah, I believe it is so we're in agreement that Divine determinism libertarian free will are mutually exclusive ideas.

01:53:53

So divine determinism cannot be compatible with Human moral agency, is that right with moral agency?

01:54:03

Um, I would say the responsibility the grounds for justification responsibility.

01:54:09

Give me those. Yes or no's Are you I took it easy. I said, yeah, that's fine. I told you that was fine. I just okay.

01:54:14

I get it I'm like I want that. Yes But I think what do you mean you okay ask the question again don't think about it.

01:54:20

I think we agree divine determinism is Incompatible with moral human moral responsibility.

01:54:27

Yes. Yes different as you added the responsibility on there Gotcha trying my best here

01:54:33

So if Scripture taught that from all eternity God declares everything that occurs

01:54:40

Would that prove divine determinism? No, why not? Because it doesn't say he determines it

01:54:45

Okay, it says he declares it. Okay, so can you explain that distinction? Yeah, so first of all,

01:54:52

God has foreknowledge But foreknowledge is not causal doesn't mean he determines it besides foreknowledge and however, he knows the future even of free choices

01:55:01

Can I take a question in there because I think it's gonna relate to what you're saying now So will you go ahead and just explain to me

01:55:07

Isaiah 46 10 God declaring the end from the beginning We'll look at the context

01:55:15

I just want to know your understanding I found out your understanding on one of your past shows I want to see if they still match or you changed your mind

01:55:24

So in the passage about why I'm familiar with the passage when God says I declare the end from the beginning He's letting it be known that The true attribute of being the true

01:55:32

God is that you have the ability to know all of time and all events that are in It so on your program you said

01:55:38

God can declare the beginning in the end But that mean that doesn't mean he predetermines the middle.

01:55:44

So is that still your stance or have you changed it some? Well, if I said that I simply meant okay

01:55:51

So the answer doesn't that statement itself about Isaiah when he said he declares me in from the beginning

01:55:56

Does not imply that he determines anything, but of course, I believe God determines many things the

01:56:03

Atonement Sure, we go on but I'm just simply saying the statement that God declares the end from the beginning doesn't prove he determines anything

01:56:10

Could we say that he predetermined the beginning and the end but not predetermined the middle

01:56:17

Not just based upon the statement, but we could say that biblically. Yes. Okay, so Isaiah 46 10

01:56:25

I want to ask you a little bit more about the context see which thing so that next frame you turn there Okay, then next

01:56:31

ESV. Yes, the elect standard version. That's right I see that's

01:56:36

I know that's why I gave it to me. He asked me for a Bible. I was like, here's an ESV So I want to understand your your understand the context.

01:56:45

So declaring the end from the beginning You're you're okay with saying okay declaring doesn't mean predetermining

01:56:52

But it would be true that God declares the beginning and the end but not

01:56:58

The middle or he does declare the middle Well, I think you have to understand what I was saying

01:57:03

I was not making a statement about what he determined just that the statement itself

01:57:09

Does not prove sure anything in the middle But if I could just build upon what I said, it doesn't move it

01:57:14

It doesn't mean he determines the beginning in the end either. Okay, so God does not determine these no

01:57:19

I know I just said that the statement what he declares Does not the statement itself?

01:57:24

I mean I do believe God determines many things. In fact, it goes on to say that I'm just talking about You can't quote what he declares, you know the beginning from the end and say well that means he determines all things or anything

01:57:35

Well, I was hoping we would be on the same page here to say okay God can declare the beginning of the end, but that doesn't mean he predetermines the middle

01:57:43

I thought I would get a clear answer on that but It sounds like I'm not understanding what you mean well, when you say

01:57:51

God declares the beginning I believe That depends on what that means because you're talking about the events in the garden

01:57:58

I don't believe he declared what choice Adam and Eve would make because I believe in libertarian free will but in a sense he determined in the sense that I Could use the word permit

01:58:09

I think rationally, but he Permits the devil in there I mean so there are things that God determines like the

01:58:15

Atonement, but he doesn't determine men's intentions and will So are you okay with a kind of divine determinism that affirms?

01:58:22

Moral agency. Well, I think determinism there you're using in a different way God can make choices that he doesn't cause like he could choose to permit the devil, but he's not causing a determinism

01:58:33

Philosophically is to through a means or not a means to cause necessarily one event after the other so So in some sense you're okay with God Exhaustively declaring the end from the beginning before it comes about and in some sense you're okay with that terminology

01:58:51

Well, that's what the Bible says So but it actually says the end from the beginning. So you agree that that assumes the middle there.

01:59:02

I The whole kitten caboodle I can declare The whole alphabet from beginning if he says from A to Z and matter of fact,

01:59:10

Jesus says something similar to that I'm the Alpha and Omega and he means the whole alphabet. Yes So yeah, I believe that so he declares everything exhaustively that's going to occur in this world from the text and we're saying that's a form of divine

01:59:23

Declaration of all things before they exist and let me ask you this Can somebody at the moment of choice choose to do other than what

01:59:31

God has declared this world to be This world to be sounds like Molin ism.

01:59:36

It's not trust me. I'm not a molest. Whoo But okay, so can he he can he won't see you're conflating can and won't

01:59:46

Well God for knows what he declares what you will do That includes everything that you could do which may not be what you will do

01:59:53

Would you agree then at the moment of your choice it will be infallibly what

01:59:59

God knows to be true Absolutely, but that doesn't mean it it must be remember that's not necessary.

02:00:05

That's not necessity. That is certainty Well, what I'm pushing is at the moment of choice. You don't have categorical ability to choose

02:00:12

Otherwise you should you affirm the simple foreknowledge view. So I'm wanting people to see there's

02:00:17

There's a relationship with God's knowledge his predetermination and the actual state of affairs and so what

02:00:24

I'm pushing for is if Libertarian free will says at the moment of choice you have the ability to choose a or B.

02:00:31

I'm saying not if God knows infallibly what's going to occur then at the moment choice. It can't contradict that Yeah, that's certainty

02:00:38

But you you can do differently when the God for knew you would you just won't and 1st Corinthians 10 says that you have the ability

02:00:45

He knows what choice that you will make But he also knows you could have chosen.

02:00:50

Otherwise, you see you can't you can't leave half of it out I'm not saying you are ah, but you you actually are

02:00:56

Now go ahead and say it you are unintentional. That's what I mean to say You see it's one thing to say God knows you will choose a but you have to allow

02:01:03

You have to bring in the whole truth that he also knows you could have not chosen a I'm okay with you affirming a kind of divine determination that that spoke caused this world with everything that's about to happen because I've heard so many arguments of the end from the beginning does not refer to Exhaustively all events some people say this is talking about Israel.

02:01:25

This is talking about a kind of prophecy With King Cyrus, but I love how you affirm that yes

02:01:31

This is the totality of everything God declared exhaustively this world that would take place.

02:01:37

I don't assume libertarian free will I just take it at what it says there and say okay I'm gonna take that truth with me everywhere else in Scripture so you can respond to that I'm gonna move on after this question.

02:01:47

Well, okay, you say I assume libertarian free will I presuppose it? I've made that argument in my speech you assume

02:01:53

Compatibilism and but let's make I just want the audience not to be confused You're talking about God's knowledge, but but I disagree with Determinism and determinism doesn't mean that he makes certain choices

02:02:05

God makes choices But determinism philosophically in the way we're using it means he causes the necessity of certain events

02:02:14

And so that I want to make sure I agree that he declares the end from the beginning For knowledge,

02:02:20

I'm not an open theist But so glad yeah, I'm glad you're not a hyper

02:02:25

Calvinist All right, but I do not believe in divine determinism as we are talking in this debate

02:02:32

Next question is are you familiar with the principle of alternate possibility? Is that in the same sense as contra causal free will

02:02:42

They're related. They're not identical Basically ought implies the possibility of can oh

02:02:51

So in other words if you ought to do something you can Do it or if you ought not to have done something you could have not done it, right?

02:02:58

But in this sense moral responsibility requires the possibility to both

02:03:03

Will and act otherwise No, okay. You disagree.

02:03:09

I see well the ability to act can be very limited You could will something to not have the ability to act it Robert. We're talking about moral ability

02:03:15

So for example, okay, okay, and so I'll say it again So the AP pep principle of alternate possibility asserts that moral responsibility requires the possibility both to will and act

02:03:28

Otherwise, is that something you said act again? So we are talking about more than moral ability or it's act physically is what you're talking

02:03:35

We're saying there's a so pap would say both are connected It would not make sense according to pap and libertarian free will for God to give a command

02:03:43

That a man can't will to do and also choose to obey it Would you would you do not would you affirm the principle of principle alternate possibility or do you do you quabble with it?

02:03:53

I do know that there are cases which so a drug addict can because of his choices

02:04:00

Become so addicted that he loses the ability to do at one time in his life.

02:04:05

That was true though That was true one time I mean people can get into a state even God can turn people over to such a heart and heart where Their will and their ability is beyond the possibility of doing anything

02:04:16

What then what they're already doing but at some point in their life pap was true They had the principle of alternate possibility to choose to act and will to do otherwise in a moral situation

02:04:29

They could for anything. They're held for anything. They're held responsible for They can will

02:04:36

Otherwise whether or not they can act I think is different So when God says to Cain sin is crouching at the door.

02:04:42

You must overcome it Are you saying it's possible for him to have wanted to resist sin?

02:04:48

But it actually might be possible where he couldn't do that in action Well, he certainly could have willed it

02:04:55

God's that's why God said that to him now think about this What about the action part?

02:05:01

Well, I don't know of any if he was handicapped and I didn't know it I suppose he could have taken the same sacrifice, but well, that's not what we're talking about Of course

02:05:08

No We're saying but he wouldn't be morally responsible if he was told to do something he wanted to but he couldn't do it pap says you got to have both the will and the ability and So I'm trying to get you to affirm that with the resounding.

02:05:21

Yes, at least once in someone's life So what you're asking is they have to be held responsible.

02:05:27

You have to be able to do what God is Telling you to do and will and action

02:05:34

But that presupposes that God would I don't believe God would hold you responsible for something you cannot do both in will and action

02:05:42

Because you said do well anything if you can't will it and you can't do it. He ain't gonna hold you responsible Yes, so ultimately here.

02:05:48

I'll say this. Yes Well, perhaps if I'm understanding you correctly, but let me clarify with this.

02:05:54

I believe God does not hold any man Responsible or culpable for things he cannot control whether it's of the will or other it's of the act

02:06:02

Which is the alternative view to compatibilism? Okay, yes, you're like, oh, what's where's he going with this?

02:06:09

I'm not afraid of being trapped because I can be wrong and I'll change my mind if I am me too It's just all determined to go one way anyway

02:06:16

Depending how you choose I suppose. Yes. I agree with that conditionally Okay So when God gave the law to Israel and said do this and you shall live and he even said if you do this commandment

02:06:28

It's not hard Was it possible? For Israel to will to obey the law perfectly and to do it.

02:06:37

Was it possible? It's certainly possible that they will to do it Would mean nothing about it that they couldn't great.

02:06:44

What about that second part of action? The Bible doesn't I don't believe it's the case so you think it's impossible

02:06:53

Well, I think every creature only from a case perspective in the Bible. No man has ever been perfect Okay, but that's not my question

02:07:00

I'm asking you according to Pat the nation or the individual well then individuals make up the nation

02:07:06

So I'm asking you. Oh, yeah, but it's different though I mean, well, you know if nation if the nation is democratic that doesn't mean every individual and it is

02:07:14

I'll kind of repeat the question though so when God gave the law to Israel do this and you shall live was there a

02:07:20

Possibility that they could will to obey it perfectly and do the action Maybe it's highly unlikely given a fallen world right that they would actually do it.

02:07:30

I'm asking about the possibility the physical possibility to obey it I Say that God Told them to do it.

02:07:40

I think any individual any individual had the physical ability no man ever has So that's a yes, it's possible.

02:07:47

They just we've seen every case people failing to do it. Yeah I don't know of any I don't know of any case.

02:07:53

I'll take that. Yeah as a yes Yes, thank you, is that okay Jesus was human and he did it, okay, that's where I'm going

02:08:00

So, why can't we just say well, of course, it's possible. Jesus did it. That's a lot of people's argument Yeah, well,

02:08:06

I don't know. It's a good question So there's many factors humans by design are limited in their knowledge their strength their stamina.

02:08:14

We get the influence of sin. So There's no man ever been able to do it you see the

02:08:20

Bible actually the Bible doesn't well except for him, that's right But he did demonstrate it was possible but no man has ever done it right but it's possible for man to do it on your view

02:08:29

I think so But because the principal possibility, that's that's okay.

02:08:35

Well, that's a contradiction if you don't think it will ever happen then it's not a possibility Well, it's physically possible and the will is possible to will to do it and it's physically possible to do it

02:08:46

But you're saying it's actually an impossibility, right? I'm saying that From what

02:08:53

I read in the Bible, there were no no man will ever be perfect. It's impossible. I Don't know if it's possible

02:08:59

I mean, I suppose it's possible physically as I said, but and and the will so the only child I'll say like this the only reason

02:09:04

I believe it. I don't like you don't like this question. Do you? Why? Because you won't tell me if it's possible if man can keep the law perfectly or not.

02:09:12

It just sounds like you're saying It's highly unlikely. I Say theologically because of what the

02:09:17

Bible teaches man will never do it. Where does it say man will never do it? Well, because no man is ever going to be saved through the work because their will is is corrupt with sin

02:09:27

And they don't desire to keep the law perfectly. I Don't believe he's corrupt in the same way.

02:09:32

I believe man is corrupt I don't believe he's corrupt in the same way that Calvin is saying right because you think it's possible for man to will to obey

02:09:39

God perfectly and I've asked you can he carry out that ability if you say no Then you have contradicted the whole premise of libertarian free will that posits the pin the principle of alternate possibility

02:09:52

I don't know about well when you say alternate possibility Let me say it like this so I can be clear We both agree that man wills to be perfectly obedient because certainly you would will to be perfectly obedient not in every sequence of events

02:10:04

So we're gonna disagree. Okay, I don't know I don't know if that's an admission that you don't will to be perfectly obedient No, I'm saying the regenerate man can will in a moment to be perfectly obedient with God But when he sins that's determined by in that moment.

02:10:15

That was not his choice He wanted to be disobedient and we see an effect of that of his action We have different world views.

02:10:22

And so I think you're affirming that it's possible and then just rebuke me I think you're affirming it's possible highly unlikely because of theology

02:10:31

But it's possible for man to will to obey the law of God perfectly and to carry out that action

02:10:38

But we never see an example of it other than Jesus So that should tell us something but it's highly unlikely that it would happen

02:10:45

Well, Jesus does prove my point that it can be done I do not believe it'll ever be done by any other human is it impossible

02:10:54

This is all this is crucial. I know I get I appreciate the question I think you said that I didn't like it because you wanted it to look like I was

02:11:00

Well a little bit embarrassing. I'm okay with the question. I there's tough questions for everybody.

02:11:06

Is it possible? Is it possible? Let me say it like this. Can I put it? Can I put it more practically? Can someone today perfectly?

02:11:11

Is it possible for someone today perfectly to obey God's moral law possible Let me tell you why it's a tough question, it's a it's a very tough question question for this reason

02:11:25

In any given moment a man can obey God's law perfectly a man can stand there and not commit any sin

02:11:32

But the reality is that the more time goes by He will sin So at any given moment a man it's not it's not possible for him to choose to be perfectly obedient I'll say it like that On an ongoing basis.

02:11:46

You're getting me back from earlier. I can feel it a little bit getting you back from earlier Yeah, I wasn't giving the yes or no.

02:11:53

Oh, well, but I listen I didn't I didn't rebuke you for not giving a yes or no I said that's fine.

02:11:58

I just kept asking for the yes or no So I'll say it like this On an ongoing basis, no man is perfectly obedient He could will it his ability to carry it out is different I that's why

02:12:12

I framed the question the way that I did I asked if it was a possibility For him to carry out the action perfectly

02:12:17

But see I just wanted to be specific because I think anybody can agree that a man in any moment could at could be sinless

02:12:25

Their life it's possible for their whole life. No, no at any given moment, but I'm asking you think you're sinning right now

02:12:31

In this moment, I do not think I'm loving God perfectly with all my heart soul mind and strength Well, you know the

02:12:36

Bible says I got a question people did it. Why don't I got a question for you? Since it's my time to ask questions, but it's okay.

02:12:41

It happens back and forth, right? So We've talked to this a lot. It sounds like it's it definitely is a hard question.

02:12:49

I'm asking the possibility of it I think your view needs it to be possible for man to have to be morally culpable

02:12:57

I have a different kind of question that relates So Is it the case that you deny original sin meaning that man is born with a sin nature

02:13:09

I would really like a yes or no because time is starting to what do you mean by sin nature? that That it's impossible for man to will to obey

02:13:19

God perfectly. No, I don't believe that. All right, so What about someone that affirms original sin?

02:13:27

with that understanding and They affirm libertarian freeway if they're if their

02:13:33

Understanding is man is not able to obey God willingly or in action Are they being consistent someone that affirms original sin and that definition and holds to libertarian free will are they being consistent?

02:13:46

we mean if are they being consistent by holding libertarian free will and That I told the gravity that I don't agree with no original sin the original sin

02:13:56

So so the gravity is the state in which originates from your birth, right and so I'm asking about original sin as Defined as man cannot carry out the ability to obey

02:14:10

God's law perfectly Okay So so historically that's how original sins been well, but man cannot obey the law of God and needs a

02:14:19

Savior Well, I believe that But so you okay, I didn't realize you believed in original sin

02:14:26

So I was no no that man needs a Savior. So you do not believe in original sin as we've discussed well

02:14:34

See different things are meant by original sin You had to realize of course non Calvinist affirm original sin, but not in the way that you would

02:14:41

So I just want to be clear on which original sin you're asking me about Well Layton flowers would agree that original sin means that you cannot obey

02:14:48

God's law perfectly. I'm not sure about all his views That's okay, so I'd like to move on since time is running out

02:14:56

Let's see here so your position would say

02:15:02

Man, it would not be morally responsible for determining his decisions carrying out his decisions his wants desires things

02:15:09

He does and also God determining those things, right? I'm saying compatibilism is not harmonious

02:15:17

We determine is right because okay ask the question again, I'll see if I could probably ask it better Both can't be true.

02:15:26

God determines man choices and man determine his choices and be morally responsible. That's right so help me out with the doctrine of inspiration because it seems like God has the ability to Determine his own word and the human authors that determined to write through their linguistic style

02:15:46

Made those choices It seems like that would destroy your view of incompatibilism.

02:15:52

I don't know why God uses a man uses his vocabulary and Because the man is under the inspiration of the

02:16:00

Holy Spirit and everything he says is in accordance with what God wants to be written

02:16:08

I Don't have a problem with that. Remember I said that God does not need to determine man's will in order to accomplish his own Right.

02:16:13

Well, you said that God is on both sides of the chessboard and I'm like that doesn't represent Compatibilism and if God is certain to win against somebody that he's going to beat that assumes

02:16:22

He doesn't have knowledge of what's going to actually happen in real time But my question is is this not a case where man determines and he would be epistemically morally justified in giving it giving us truth

02:16:32

According to what he determined, but it's also the case that God determines his own word

02:16:39

Well, you're make sure that you're using determinism in the sense that we're debating which is a philosophical thing meaning he necessitates the events

02:16:47

Right. Does God necessitate his word? No, that would assume that if God Paul for example has a choice between using

02:16:56

Predestination or election In any sentence because sometimes you mind if I cut you off we got about a minute.

02:17:02

Okay Do you believe that Jesus had libertarian free will? Sure, I believe that God and Jesus has to right.

02:17:10

Absolutely So was it possible for Jesus not to do the will of the Father? Let's get back into the possibility.

02:17:19

It was good possibility I think he could if he had a libertarian which you just affirmed So we both agree that he could have if that's libertarian free will so he could have not followed the

02:17:28

Father's will at some point Not that he didn't but he could have Why don't I don't it's a very deep theological question as far as I'm a sir.

02:17:35

I don't know why he went Well in our position he couldn't have possibly done otherwise because it was certain to happen the way that God Predetermined it but I want to know what you think about when

02:17:45

John says Jesus says I can do nothing of my own Initiative and I always do the things that are pleasing to him your position says it was possible

02:17:54

For him not to do that and he has to make sure he makes that a truth value in real time

02:17:59

No, I don't I think in the context what he means is The son and acting for the father

02:18:05

Only has the authority to do what he's been given. He doesn't mean I can't physically do it

02:18:11

He certainly can't in fact he said it's possible. Well, he said If it's possible, let's just cut past for me, but not my will

02:18:17

In other words, he could have done other than what God wanted him to do for the cross But he didn't want to okay.

02:18:22

You are a gentleman and a scholar You same to you Well, great job guys.

02:18:28

Thank you very much. We are now getting to the end Where we will go into our closing statements.

02:18:36

Each of you will have five minutes And a K the floor is yours in the affirmative

02:18:44

I will begin this five minute timer as soon as you start paper weights.

02:18:54

All right Well, I do appreciate Jeremiah for the exchange and the debate

02:19:00

I appreciate the 12 -5 church and everything they've done to host this appreciate the audience

02:19:06

Okay, so I will start with the question that was being asked Let me let me get a little bit more specific about Why I was trying to decipher the question about does man have the ability to perfectly obey

02:19:18

God's law at any given moment when a man? sins He can choose not to commit that sin

02:19:24

Now can man live on an ongoing process in perfection? So that's what

02:19:31

I was going back and forth with and that's why I try to clarify Anytime a man sins he could have not sinned

02:19:37

That's what the Bible says It says that in first Corinthians 10 very clearly and if you remember my exchange in questioning him

02:19:43

I kept asking is there any ability and he kept saying well I asked is there any ability that a man could utilize to not sin if he's been determined to sin

02:19:53

Well, there was a lot of confusion with that I think I think he did have a problem with that because he kept saying no there isn't any ability but the

02:19:58

Bible says there's That's the problem see libertarian free will doesn't have a problem with that and I already

02:20:04

I said We presuppose libertarian free will and he kept saying well you're assuming in compatibilism

02:20:11

Everybody assumes in compatibilism if you're deciphering what to believe about what has been said you're presupposing that you can make choices about what conclusions you can come to If compatibilism is true, you will only choose to believe what

02:20:25

God determined for you to choose But that's not how you live and act you right now You're listening to things, you know making judgments in your mind.

02:20:31

No. No what a cave just said that's not correct. You're Presupposing a libertarian free will when you go to the

02:20:37

Bible to interpret it You're presupposing that you can decipher it and make a choice about what it means Which is self -defeating incompatibilism because if God determined everything you believe you're not the one choosing to believe it

02:20:50

God is determining for you to believe it. In fact, God can determine for you to believe falsely We all know there are Christians who think well, we all know there are people who think they're

02:20:59

Christians But they're not Jehovah's Witnesses Mormons, they think they're

02:21:06

God's people and they're interpreting the Bible correctly so God determined for them to think that incompatibilism and They think they're correct.

02:21:15

Well, that could be you too You think your interpretation of the Bible is correct. He thinks his is but that presupposes

02:21:24

Incompatibilism that that presupposes libertarian free will No, but concerning what man is able to do man at any given moment is able to not sin when he sins

02:21:32

That's what 1st Corinthians 10 says Which his theology rejects? but that was a confusing answer because On one hand he said well, there is an ability that you could utilize to do other than but then he said well

02:21:45

There is a conditional ability when it can't be both either. There is no ability or there is an ability and if you say there isn't any ability a man could utilize to choose other than what

02:21:55

God determined then you contradict 1st Corinthians 10 and You notice when I asked him about Jeremiah 10,

02:22:02

I said didn't originate in God's heart on one hand He would say no. I said well, isn't he the one that determined that it would happen and he said yes

02:22:10

That's what it means to originate in his heart, of course Now but a couple things just kind of a left hanging here

02:22:21

He kept making the statement that your influences and your reasons do determine your will no, they do not a man has multiple reasons and influences if he's on a if he's on a

02:22:35

Fast if he's fasting he's hungry. He's got a reason to eat. He's even got an influence Well, if he chooses not to eat the steak that's sitting in front of him

02:22:47

Then it is not true that his influences and his reasons determined his choice see people rationalize and they

02:22:56

Contemplate a variety of options and their reasons for choosing and then they make a choice

02:23:01

The very fact that you got conflicting reasons Proves that they do not determine your choice because not every reason determines your choice

02:23:09

But the compadres says what your strongest desire and reason that'll determine your choice

02:23:15

Yeah, like an animal so you are like an animal, you know we don't hold animals responsible for when they do things that if men do they would be culpable when a when a lion kills

02:23:27

Other animals we don't consider it murder because he's a lion. He's only doing what his strongest desire and acts

02:23:34

But you can't do that with humans. That's the whole point You see nobody in this room wouldn't do that with another human being you don't treat us like animals because we're not

02:23:43

We can choose contrary to our strongest desires people do it all the time in the Bible But I'm out of time.

02:23:51

So I appreciate the debate. I appreciate the audience. And as I said Jeremiah and the 12 -5 church

02:24:00

Jeremiah you're up your timer starts as soon as you begin you have five minutes

02:24:05

All right, we have five minutes. Let's see what we can happen I want to start with him talking about we are not determined by our influences and choices

02:24:13

So the difference between us and animals is animals cannot reason and so he's right

02:24:19

We do have conflicting reasons and desires and influences and then he you notice what he said He said that shows that it doesn't determine our our choice.

02:24:28

I disagree I said, I think there's a buffet of reasons that are conflicting influences

02:24:34

But one is to be received and causes your choice So the fact that we reason that's what separates us from animals and are based on our desire with our reason

02:24:44

You can't just touch the mind of man without his heart so desire and reason and influence all go together

02:24:50

But where we disagree is one does come out from the other and if you take that away

02:24:55

And I ask a K. Why did you choose a he can't give me a reason it's it's irrational at that point

02:25:02

That's why one of my opening arguments is the problem of ability. They need categorical ability when

02:25:07

Conditional ability is necessary And I disagree with a

02:25:13

K. He is just saying well, we don't have a real decision if God determined it Well, that's just assuming incompatibilism.

02:25:20

I think that's what he has done all night And so when we go back to first Corinthians 10 13,

02:25:26

I thought I was being clear So when we read no temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man.

02:25:32

God is Faithful who is God God is eternal eternal.

02:25:38

He is immutable. He is Unchanging and when we got a K admitting and using anthropomorphic verses to say well

02:25:45

God does react to man I'm just saying you've literally left God's immutability and eternality in that way

02:25:52

Now God's character is not the only thing that's unchanging his deity who he is his on toss is unchanging and that God is

02:26:00

Faithful and so when we read and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability

02:26:06

He just assumes incompatibilism. He just says well, you're determined you can't do other and I'm like, there's no problem

02:26:12

Because what kind of ability are we talking about here? We're talking about created man who has conditional ability when you're tempted

02:26:20

You will not be tempted beyond what you and your ability can bear if you resist temptation

02:26:27

Then great God made a way of escape for you Conditionally because God is different than man

02:26:33

And so I just want to make sure that we're clear we have to define terms earlier when I asked him to define a term

02:26:39

He just said well, we're just talking about ultimate choice. Well, if we're saying that the efficient cause of all things

02:26:45

Well, yeah compatibilism says that's God's choice. That's God's prerogative and he would not be Wrong for creating a world in that way now a

02:26:54

K does not have a problem limiting God's Omnipotence. I think that is a contradiction in terms.

02:27:00

God has an Eternal Omnipotent choice a limitless choice and he's saying oh, it's no problem for God to limit that It's a problem not just because I say it is but because of who

02:27:12

God is God cannot deny himself and so when he was talking about The Jeremiah 19 5 passage

02:27:20

He's saying oh, it doesn't come from man's heart when he determines and he decrees whatsoever comes past that doesn't come from his heart well, there's a difference in Determining and decreeing and then revealing

02:27:31

God's heart to man in a way that he can understand So in compatibilism, we would say

02:27:37

God does not rejoice and get really happy at the death of the wicked That does not bring

02:27:42

God joy. Was it determined to happen and fallibly? Yes, but God has told us that I do not rejoice in them that is necessary to happen in the big grand scheme of things

02:27:52

Because God is working all things together after the counsel of his will he's not dipping down asking us

02:27:59

Can I do this? Is this okay with you? No, I deny that God can limit his omnipotence sovereignty means that that God has ruling authority and Transcendent power and so God's sovereignty means that he determines this created world and I believe a

02:28:20

K left libertarian free will when he says in some sense God can declare the whole thing and You noticed a

02:28:26

K had a really hard time when I asked him about the principle of alternate possibility Because he agreed initially it was hard to get it out of him

02:28:34

But in order for someone to be morally accountable for their actions They have to have the ability to carry out their action with their will that is a that is a central point within Libertarian free will but there's a problem because he's not going to say that man can actually possibly

02:28:50

Be sinless in his will and want to carry out his desires

02:28:55

And so I'm saying that if if God gave us a a law that we can't carry out

02:29:00

Then we need a Savior and that's the whole point of Jesus Christ It's not that Jesus possibly could have disobeyed the

02:29:06

Father. No, he would do it perfectly and he is the only Savior. Thank you All righty.

02:29:11

Thank you gentlemen We will now have another five minute intermission and after this one

02:29:18

We will have a time of Q &A. So please come up with questions I'll explain that when we come back together

02:29:25

But if you are online with us Please submit your questions in the comment section and be sure to preface that with the letter

02:29:32

Q so we know it's a question and address it to who you want to add answer the question either a

02:29:39

K or Jeremiah and remember if you want to be sure to get your question answered you can utilize the super chat

02:29:46

We will be back in five minutes If anybody's thirsty, there's a ice chest of cokes was just brought in and some bottled water

02:33:03

So if you're thirsty, you're free to get one Just remember if you get one it was foreknown and it was also predetermined

02:35:26

We're ready to go Just live questions, we don't have any anything on there.

02:35:32

We're ready to go back. Welcome back We're we're gonna go into our time of Q &A and for those of you that are in the audience

02:35:39

I'm sure that some of you have questions we have as you can see up front a microphone where we can begin to form a line if you do have a question, but Let me let me just say please limit your question to one and Be sure to address who you are asking the question to either

02:36:02

Jeremiah or a K or both for that matter and for time's sake, please keep your questions succinct and Try and stay under 30 seconds.

02:36:12

I've seen people come up and and ask a 7 -minute question before so let's keep it

02:36:17

Let's keep it down for the sake of time and for those of you online again We'll of course we will get to your questions if we can

02:36:25

But be sure to ask your questions and preface it with a cue So we know you're asking a question and you can for sure ask

02:36:33

With a super chat, so we will begin now be sure to proprietor or prioritize these questions and we can begin lining up and asking as Ready How do you read numbers 23 19 and Just to keep from saying it's from Balaam a false prophet verse 5 said that the

02:37:08

Lord put this in his mouth Says that God is not a man that he should lie or a son of man that he should change his mind

02:37:15

Do you affirm that? God I Didn't look at the text, but Is that concerning a

02:37:25

Saul or is that concerning? Balaam you said it was Balaam It's not changed his mind.

02:37:31

Well, he certainly doesn't change his mind like a human would change his mind. We would change our mind

02:37:36

We would have one will and one intent and we might change it based upon We had a we saw something that we didn't know

02:37:46

But well when you read Genesis chapter 1 You do have God reacting to man there ain't no way around it when when

02:37:53

God saw the wickedness of man It says it now some translations say repented it grieved him at his heart.

02:37:59

Well, that's a reaction God unless you want to believe that it doesn't mean what it says now you say well, it's anthropomorphic

02:38:04

Well, what does it mean then? I mean if it's figurative, it's still communicating something. Is it communicating that he didn't feel anything

02:38:10

Well, if God is is he ever displeased that's what you got to ask yourself. Is God ever displeased by man's choices?

02:38:17

Well, then he's that's a reaction but the idea of changing his mind is an arbitrary change of mind

02:38:23

Based upon nothing like humans would do but the Bible says in the Potter analogy in Jeremiah chapter 18 that he will change what he says

02:38:33

We all we all agree that God reacts because he's pleased by man. He's displeased by man.

02:38:38

He loves man. That's a reaction Time's up. So I think it's a great question because Okay, don't hate me.

02:38:49

But I think you fundamentally deny many classical attributes of God namely

02:38:55

God's immutability Another good verse would be I think it's Malachi 3 6 that God says

02:39:00

I the Lord do not change Jesus is the same yesterday today and tomorrow forever and it's because God is always divine.

02:39:11

He always retains his omniscience. He always retains his omnipotence and his sovereignty God does not

02:39:19

Categorically change and so a difference that a K and I have is how we understand what the

02:39:24

Bible says I'm not denying what the Bible says we disagree on its meaning. And so when it grieved God's heart, he's not thinking man

02:39:31

I wish I would have planned to do things differently But we're getting an insight to the heart of God in a way that we can understand it grieved him when man

02:39:41

Totally reject him. That's not man. That's not God Changing that is

02:39:46

God communicating to us in a way that we can understand. So a

02:39:51

K gets one more minute to tell me how I'm wrong Well, I don't hate you let's get that out of the way

02:40:01

Well, let's differentiate between changing your mind and reacting of course, those are two different things now

02:40:06

I didn't say that being grieved in Genesis meant that he says I wish I didn't do this. It just grieved him

02:40:12

Well, that's a reaction. I mean everybody knows the definition of reaction and that's what it means to react He doesn't say

02:40:18

I felt nothing that would be a non -reaction God reacts all the time every time it says he's pleased or displeased.

02:40:24

We all can see that's a reaction now whether he changes his mind Now admittedly it is difficult to think through God changing his mind

02:40:33

I admit that there's many things about God is difficult. Like there's things about the Trinity that are difficult things about his

02:40:39

Self -existence that are difficult But the Bible says and the Jeremiah passage in 18 that he will change what he promises

02:40:46

You can call that change in your mind. You can not call it, but it's certainly a reaction And I appreciate the question.

02:40:52

I do believe he certainly reacts. I'm hearing myself

02:41:06

Y 'all can make a line if you want if other people are okay My question is directed to a

02:41:11

K in so much as it relates to the libertarian free will as you suppose man has

02:41:17

Can you interpret Romans 9 verse 16 for me? Pulling out the big gun

02:41:23

Romans 9. All right. Let me turn there 9 16.

02:41:37

All right. Let's see So then it depends not on human will or exertion but on God who has mercy sure

02:41:46

So first of all, we all presuppose libertarian free will everybody does because when you are making decisions in your head you're supposing you are the one making those choices and When you interpret the

02:41:58

Bible you presuppose it, but okay so the context is in a chapter where Paul has already established that Salvation is through faith and not through Jewish ethnicity, which

02:42:08

I think everybody admits so when he says it's not dependent on human will or On a man who exerts himself or works depending on the translations the difference the point is that God is not

02:42:18

Obligated by anything in man to make his choices, which we all agree with God has no obligation even to faith

02:42:24

God is not obligated to save you through faith. No, those are the conditions he chooses So what

02:42:29

Paul is saying is God is not obligated by Jewish ethnicity. That's the context. I don't have a timer

02:42:35

So but he's not what's that? It's up, okay, you'll get another minute

02:42:43

So we obviously we have different definitions of who God is and what that entails But when he says we all suppose presuppose libertarian free will that's just demonstrably false

02:42:54

Compatibilism literally does not presuppose libertarian free will by definition now

02:43:00

He is assuming a lot of things when he means man makes a choice Well, what kind of choice because conditional ability is all that is necessary for moral accountability

02:43:10

What he's smuggling in there is the categorical ability which already necessitates Conditional ability so he's equivocating on the terms and that's being slipped in there and so when we look at Romans 9 through 11

02:43:23

I do think that is talking a lot about the ethnicity of Israel and I think he's gonna get me on this one

02:43:30

But I think it's verse 5 that says Jesus or Christ is

02:43:35

God over all that's key Of course, he's sovereign over Israel the individuals and the nation but that presupposes that he is

02:43:43

God over all his creation Yeah, I believe God is over all but we can't assume sovereignty means determinism

02:43:50

And I'm not smuggler smuggling in anything and I didn't say the compatibilism assumes or presupposes libertarian free

02:43:56

Well, I said everybody does When you come here to listen to what is said and if you think well God's determined what

02:44:02

I'm going to believe Nobody does that you're deciphering what I say or you read the scriptures to interpret it

02:44:08

You are supposing that you can choose what to believe and what conclusions you can come to That is a presupposition of every human being in the world now

02:44:17

But going back to the text when it says it does not depend on human will yes The context means

02:44:22

God is not obligated by the will of any man to save anybody in the context on Jewish ethnicity

02:44:27

That would extend to anybody he's not even obligated on the human will to believe

02:44:32

No those that's what he chooses to save on but we're not talking about what the conditions are

02:44:39

We're talking about what obligates God God is not bound by Jewish ethnicity or the human will for that matter

02:44:44

But he does require you to be willing For anyone asking questions, please get onto the microphone and speak up the live audience is having trouble hearing everyone.

02:44:58

Thank you Shannon hey, I'm guessing this one's for me.

02:45:05

Oh, yeah I'd like to hear a cave response that I'm on the right track

02:45:11

I'm gonna try to put I'm trying to put reformed theology and yeah Okay, bill lived and died on this earth bill being totally depraved

02:45:19

Y 'all touched on this a little bit and bill was unable to respond positively to the gospel

02:45:24

He never did so he died a reprobate. Okay, so I'm reformed theology. This means

02:45:29

God withheld his grace From bill in other words, he didn't regenerate bill

02:45:34

Okay, and I just looked up the verse there's a bunch of but I John 12 48 the one

02:45:40

Bill the one who rejects me bill in this case and does not receive my words as a judge

02:45:48

The word that I've spoken will judge him on the last day Okay, here's my question.

02:45:54

How can God justly hold bill responsible for rejecting Jesus and his words?

02:46:00

When God withheld what bill needed to be able to respond positively to the gospel

02:46:06

Great question. So compatibilism would account for both what God does differently from what man does

02:46:13

Scripture teaches that man is hostile to the things of God And so even though God says turn to Jesus turn to me and you will live man goes

02:46:23

I hate you man says I want to do things the way that I want and when a K just says well

02:46:28

He's just doing what he's determined. Well, yeah, he is determined within a world that God created

02:46:33

Necessarily to come about but that doesn't negate man's responsibility because he is choosing according to his desire

02:46:41

Oh, but God determined him great. That's compatibilism We're saying that we're not going to unificate the will of man with the will of God a case fine with God Reacting and saying that's what the

02:46:51

Bible says and I guess it says what it says and it means what it means But I think there's something completely different with God and man

02:46:57

So both would be true man resists the gospel Resists Christ and we need the

02:47:03

Holy Spirit to regenerate our heart and compel us to look to the only Savior Well, yeah

02:47:10

So ultimately the truth is if it would just be stated as it is that God is going to send

02:47:16

Bill in this case to hell he is going to condemn anybody who is condemned and judged and Is lost is lost because God determined it and this is how

02:47:26

I remember this is how Calvin is used Jeremiah Romans chapter 9 with Jacob and Esau remember they're not going to hell because of their evil.

02:47:34

It's like well there They this is what they deserve. No, God doesn't consider in Calvinism. God does not consider their works

02:47:40

So the fact that someone is going to be lost and not saved like Esau in their interpretation God isn't considering Esau's evil as to why well, he's worthy of being lost because of his evil

02:47:51

No, God in Calvinism is not considering them. So he's lost just because God chooses for him to be lost and The stuff about well a case presupposing incompatibilism by saying it's irrational

02:48:03

But nobody ever rationalizes that God is condemning a man who never had the chance to be saved because he couldn't

02:48:12

Yeah Aka is just simply saying I'm not presupposing incompatibilism, but compatibilism doesn't make sense

02:48:19

Well, according to what standard? Oh, well according to incompatibilism. So he's assuming it with his very definition

02:48:26

He's not showing how it contradicts man's will being different from God's will

02:48:31

This is what the Apostle Paul said about man's will with God. He says the mind set on the flesh

02:48:38

This is someone who doesn't possess the Spirit the mind of this person The mind of the flesh is hostile to the things of God for it does not submit to God's law

02:48:47

Indeed, it cannot to those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Oh, but Jeremiah they were determined to do some great that's compatibilism

02:48:55

God is responsible for what he wants to accomplish and man is a Responsible for what he chooses to do when a case says in the

02:49:03

God of Calvinism doesn't hold men responsible to their works We just we reject that. Of course.

02:49:08

God's gonna hold them accountable for their works that they chose to do from their heart There's no problem with understanding

02:49:14

God's absolute sovereignty All right, can everybody hear me am

02:49:20

I am I doing it right doing it good, okay All right. So first of all, I'm disappointed in both of you that we have your images up here

02:49:26

But yet you decide to stand underneath stops That's good, so first of all, there's that in so I do have a question over a verse

02:49:35

I wish I could read the whole chapter to you guys, but it is John chapter 6, but that's 70 verses So, I'm sorry.

02:49:41

I just feel like it's a little bit on context I'm trying not to do that. But you know for time's sake it's verse 65

02:49:46

It says this is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by the

02:49:52

Father So I guess if I have to address I guess I'm dressing over to a cave first, you know, how does this work underneath?

02:49:59

libertarian free will Well to say that somebody cannot come to him unless drawn doesn't mean is it make a statement about their choice?

02:50:07

It just makes a statement about what they cannot do In Romans chapter 10, it says faith comes by hearing hearing by the

02:50:13

Word of Christ I could simply say and this is the idea man cannot believe in Christ unless the gospel is taught

02:50:19

But that doesn't say anything about what he's choosing The question is once he's taught the gospel could he then choose to believe so in John chapter 6 it goes on to say

02:50:28

Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Well in context in historical context and the context of the book

02:50:37

Faithful Israelites Israelites who have been obedient to God loving God Drawn to God when they hear the

02:50:43

Son they come you see Jesus said he that hears and learns from the Father Well, how is that? Well, it's through the revelation of the

02:50:50

Old Testament scriptures that Israel always had He said in John chapter 5 if you had believed Moses, you would believe me

02:50:55

You see what it means if you believe Moses, which was God speaking and teaching them you would come to me But because they rejected him they reject the

02:51:02

Son So I think it's a good question because when you look at John 6 65 also with verse 44 and verse 30 7

02:51:12

I believe we see The contrast between God and man man is in a fallen state and does not seek

02:51:18

God truly from the heart We see these people they are seeking after God because they want their tummies full you know,

02:51:26

I mean they saw the miracles and They're they're seeking after Jesus for the wrong reasons.

02:51:31

And so when Jesus gets into some heavy theology, I believe it's The very next verse after he says

02:51:39

I told you that is why no one can come to me Unless it has been granted to him by the Father.

02:51:44

They said I'm out We don't like that teaching of God's absolute sovereignty stuff. That doesn't mesh well with my will

02:51:50

Now a K as far as I can tell he denies original sin as it's classically understood that sinners by nature

02:51:57

Repel the things of God and I think there's plenty of passages that show that there's an inability to want to choose otherwise, of course, remember that Calvinism's original sin and total depravity to are not the same as traditional other non -calvinists who believe in the same things

02:52:16

Well once again in John chapter 6 again, I just repeat the same thing I fully believe you are not able to come to the

02:52:23

Son unless drawn by the Father, but that doesn't say anything about your will It just simply means you can't do it

02:52:30

Again if if you do not have revelation from the Father if you do not know about Jesus You've not taught about it.

02:52:36

You cannot come to him And in the context once again the faithful Israelites that came to God through the scriptures came to Jesus you know an equivalent statement in John chapter 5 is

02:52:49

If you do not seek the honor that comes from the one and only God Then I forget the rest of the statement, but it's in the same context there where it says or how can you believe?

02:52:59

If you do not seek the honor that comes from the only God You have to have loved the

02:53:04

Father if you weren't drawn by the Father through previous revelation. You won't come to Jesus next

02:53:16

This question is for a K. Thanks for coming out by the way I guess coming into the lion's pit here.

02:53:21

Mm -hmm But I just I'm gonna jump into I'm gonna jump into Romans chapter 9 And just ask you to to touch on on clarifying this because you'd spoke about a little bit of pottery work earlier

02:53:33

And this is kind of right where I jump to but I'll read it real quick just so everybody can be on the same page

02:53:38

It's and of course, I'm referring to verse 22. It says a what if God? Desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power had endured with much patience vessels of wrath

02:53:49

Prepared for destruction in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

02:54:00

Even us whom he has called not from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles as a deed

02:54:07

Yeah, he says So are you saying that this is a hypothetical statement from from Paul? Or are you saying that the vessels are not individual souls?

02:54:15

I think I believe you know references that when it says the Gentiles and the Jews Can you just touch on that and clarify how that that?

02:54:24

This is you know, this can coexist with your ideology that we could you know I guess what I'm asking is, you know, if God is has endured with much patience that you're a vessel of Wrath the destined for destruction.

02:54:35

How do you make a libertarian free will to I guess For a lack of a better term ask

02:54:41

Jesus into your heart out of that or something to that effect Does that make sense? Is that fair? I think

02:54:46

I get your question I hope you have a little mercy and it's hard to answer that in 60 seconds, but I'll do the best

02:54:51

I can well in the context Paul is borrowing from Old Testament imagery as Israel as the clay

02:54:58

Israel is the clay Now the vessel of honor is what he's been talking about. He's been talking about the spiritual

02:55:04

Israel and the vessel dishonor is the Keeping with the symbolism in the symbolism the vessel is the use that God makes

02:55:13

That's obvious because when you make a vessel you're using the clay, but the clay is Israel So he uses one lump that's physical

02:55:20

Israel for dishonor that's the reprobate that those who had not believed in Christ or had rejected the prophets even and He uses what ultimately is the church or God's people those that's the vessel of honor

02:55:33

But the Bible does not say whether he chooses which individual is going to be in which

02:55:39

He chooses unbelievers to be vessels of honor or dishonor But it doesn't say he unconditionally chooses that they're going to be unbelievers

02:55:46

It's very difficult to elaborate on that at the time. That's true. You get another 60 seconds more than me

02:55:53

But we have a different definition of who God is so like when we read Christ is

02:55:59

God over all me and him already disagree with what's that what that is talking about if you are someone that approaches

02:56:05

God As being omniscient and that infallibly will come to pass the moment that he causes this world to exist

02:56:12

Well at the moment of choice, you don't have libertarian free will He believes that God can limit his omnipotence and his sovereignty

02:56:19

I'm saying that's a contradiction in terms. And so as we approach this text, we have different definitions of God I will agree.

02:56:27

This is talking about Israel being the lump of clay, but God is sovereign over all this

02:56:32

This shows us that of course he can mold Israel how he wants But he also can mold his creation how he wants and when when you hear him just assume

02:56:42

Well, you know if you're determined to do what you want to do, you couldn't do. Otherwise I'm saying that's according to your heart desire

02:56:48

So we've not touched on what the state of man is in terms of his will being bound in sin

02:56:54

Once once again, he says according to your heart's desire, but God determined your heart's desire So it ultimately just say the ultimate truth

02:57:00

God determined what you do So we do believe in different gods and I think he's trying to honor

02:57:06

God. I believe everybody who's reformed us I do not believe in a God Based upon the Bible and how he presents himself who

02:57:13

Sends people to hell and condemns people for what they had no control I mean you can believe that if you think that's what the Bible presents you obviously do but that's right

02:57:19

I have a different God that does not condemn those who have no chance Remember the reprobating Calvinist have no opportunity no chance

02:57:26

They have no possibility of being saved because they weren't determined to be there's nothing they can do There was nothing they could do to be in the situation as sinners

02:57:35

But concerning Romans chapter 9 it does not say he unconditionally chooses who will be the vessel of honor dishonor

02:57:41

It doesn't say that no matter how much you want to read it in there It just says he makes a vessel of honor dishonor But does not tell you in that chapter the conditions but Paul does do you want to be a vessel of honor?

02:57:51

It's faith, but it never says he unconditionally chooses who will believe that was good another minute

02:58:00

Do the best I can rush it out there, you know Following up on that last comment from a

02:58:05

K So in Romans 9 when the Apostle Paul anticipates there'll be an objection to his message about sovereignty and the will of man

02:58:13

He anticipates the objector will say to him. How does he find fault for who can resist his will?

02:58:20

So when you preach about sovereignty and the will of God Can you give us an example of when someone has said to you?

02:58:26

Well, then how can God find fault in a man for who can resist his will? Can you give us an example of when that's happened to you?

02:58:33

Well, I've never preached what Paul preached to the Jews I don't preach to the Jews and remember he's he's talking to Jewish objectors who do not like the idea that God is using

02:58:44

Unbelieving Israel as hard -hearted people which he goes on to elaborate in 11. So this idea.

02:58:49

Well, when has people said that to you? well, I'm not preaching to the same audience that he is he's speaking to people who have Jewish objectors and We all concede remember

02:58:57

Calvinist concede that man resists God's will he's been saying that from the beginning So it can't be that will that we resist all the time that Paul's talking about What he's talking about is when

02:59:07

God has the will to use you for a certain purpose like he did Pharaoh That's the context then even your wickedness becomes useful to God and someone like Pharaoh might say

02:59:16

Well, if you're using me for evil, then I haven't overturned your will. I haven't overturned your accomplishment your accomplishment and God is saying

02:59:24

I could use you for that and that's not a problem libertarian free will because God uses the wicked.

02:59:31

I Have two seconds So I want to make comment what you said earlier because it relates to this but you're saying in Calvinism It doesn't matter what you do because God's already determined it to begin with and you didn't have a choice in the matter

02:59:45

I want you when you hear a case say that he's assuming Libertarian free will and then saying and your position doesn't make sense.

02:59:54

And so that's not how you do a dialogue back that you have to assume the parameters of the objector and Of the objection and then show a logical inconsistency

03:00:05

He just he is just saying that what we're determined to do is by God and that doesn't make sense

03:00:11

That's not an argument And so the way this relates back to Romans 9 is

03:00:16

I believe a case on the wrong side of the Apostle Paul He is saying the same been saying the same thing all night

03:00:22

Well, how can God find fault in someone that he's already determined the outcome? Well, I would encourage you be on the side of the

03:00:29

Apostle Paul in this passage and not on the side of the objectioner Yeah, I'm not on this.

03:00:35

I'm not against the Apostle Paul you Calvinist are making Paul talk about an issue that he never was

03:00:40

He's not talking about Libertarian free will Calvinism. He's talking about two Jewish objectors and The example was

03:00:48

Pharaoh being used which the Bible never says God determined his will or the wicked intentions of his heart

03:00:54

Using a wicked man for his purposes and him saying well Nobody's resisting your will and if you go back to Romans chapter 3, this is what

03:01:02

Paul had already brought up Well, the whole idea is if God wants to use hardened

03:01:07

Israel to accomplish his purpose He can and and there's nothing they can say but if what

03:01:13

Calvin is say is true and God determined for them to be evil in the first place the Objection is valid.

03:01:19

But of course that's not the discussion. God is not talking about Calvinism He's not talking about Libertarian free will you're reading into it and anachronistically an issue that didn't even exist and Three seconds left

03:01:34

It's not it's not easy is it? No, it's difficult I Got one more question

03:01:40

I was debating on whether or not go to Ephesians, but man Genesis 2 I want to start there and it's for a

03:01:48

K of course What chapter Genesis Genesis 2 and it's gonna be followed up by Genesis 3 5.

03:01:53

It's kind of sitting on top of each other Genesis 2 17 says but the tree of of the knowledge of good and evil

03:02:00

You shall not eat of it for in the day that you eat you shall surely die Then it goes on in 3 5 it says

03:02:07

Where God knows when you eat of the tree for either of it your eyes will be open This is the first Adam.

03:02:14

We know he had the same as the second Adam He he was without sin had a free net free will per se

03:02:21

But it looks to me like it was determined Even though he was free that he was going to eat because God says he knows that the day he eats over he's gonna die

03:02:31

So it's determined that God knew that he was gonna eat over Well determine determinism and foreknowledge is not the same thing

03:02:39

When you say it seems to me that he determined it because he knew it you're conflating two different things foreknowledge is not determinism

03:02:48

God can know something without determining it and I gave you the example of taking a

03:02:53

DeLorean into the future and knowing who wins in the next year Super Bowl Well, I can know it at that point, but I didn't determine it

03:02:59

So the text doesn't say he determined it that's my answer Yes If you want to restart the timer

03:03:06

So this gets into the heart of it because I know you weren't saying that foreknowledge is causal

03:03:13

But the whole point is knowledge and God's predetermination go hand in hand because God can know something and then this is where it's related

03:03:22

Aka is then God predetermines to create that specific world. And so at that point at the moment of choice

03:03:28

It's it's locked in and when you get into he knows what they could do, but not what they would do Now that's

03:03:34

Molin ism and understanding counterfactuals and things like that, but that's very important I want people to hear this point is it's not a conflation of foreknowledge and causation.

03:03:44

They're related Inextricably, but they are distinct God knows what he predetermines and he predetermines what he knows

03:03:51

You can't touch either one of those without damaging the other and so at the moment when

03:03:56

Adam Conditionally could have chose to not eat from the tree God knows infallibly what's going to happen and he created that world and so a case left essentially the same problems that he's accusing

03:04:10

Calvinism of Well, his question did conflate it because he said It seems to me that he did determine for them to eat because it says he knew it.

03:04:20

That's a conflation Foreknowledge is not causal. It's just not the same definition

03:04:26

I mean that is a conflation of the terms and just to simply argue that well it is

03:04:32

That if you foreknowledge, I believe see I believe they're related But I hate that I can't respond to you after this

03:04:39

Yeah, it doesn't feel mutual. It doesn't mean that the relationship is that foreknowledge causes

03:04:48

It causes it just simply doesn't I mean you can know something without determining and it's just that simple and You said something else there

03:04:56

I can't remember, but I gave you the DeLorean analogy if you know the future it doesn't mean

03:05:03

I caused the winner of the Super Bowl and That's my answer. I like the

03:05:09

DeLorean thing It's really a bad car. Actually, that's what I hear This Question is not about Calvinism But it is for Jeremiah.

03:05:20

Oh, I'm excited All right So earlier whenever y 'all were talking about your different stances either in the closing remarks or in the cross -examination

03:05:26

Honestly any point in the debate really? You were using the word Anthropomorphic language.

03:05:32

Yeah, and you were using the word figurative language are both of those Coexistent with each other or are they different and can you explain the difference between the two?

03:05:41

Sure, they are related Anthropomorphic language is human language

03:05:48

And so this is important as to where we disagree because how I relate to you and we talk and speak

03:05:54

This is anthropomorphic language things that we talk about with one another and so God is of a different kind than we are

03:06:01

He's eternal. And so how do you bridge that gap? I believe God is powerful enough to bridge that gap and speak

03:06:08

Anthropomorphic Lee and that's not just figurative to say it's not truth God can speak in ways that we understand and we truly know him in that relationship

03:06:17

So he doesn't like my understanding of anthropomorphism when God expresses his heart

03:06:23

I'm saying God can express his heart in a way that we understand in a genuine true way and that doesn't negate or contradict

03:06:31

God's eternal decree. Yeah, so Anthropomorphic is like ascribing ears and eyes to God.

03:06:40

He's got ears to say, you know, we've got ears with his ears hands He doesn't actually have hands Speaking about it.

03:06:46

Well, it is figurative in the sense that it's not literal. He doesn't literally have hands He doesn't literally have eyes, but it does mean something

03:06:52

I mean, it doesn't mean that he's not doing something with what we call hands and so when you say that God I Think this was we were talking in reference to him reacting if I'm not mistaken

03:07:04

And if it is well, it does mean something so if you're gonna say it's anthropomorphic, no, actually we were talking about something else

03:07:12

Whether he I was something else actually, I can't remember but I think we did talk about it also with him reacting to Which is it does mean something if you're gonna say well him being grieved is anthropomorphic.

03:07:23

Okay. So then what does it mean? He's not grieved in any way. He's not being emotional Well, of course he reacts.

03:07:29

Why wouldn't he I mean he created a world of free creatures who are making choices that displease him So he reacts but I think the best way to say is okay.

03:07:37

God reacts Anthropomorphically meaning that he communicates with us and we say ah, okay he's giving us a command and if we choose to obey it then this will happen and so we are a reflection of God's image so we

03:07:53

Communicate with God how we generally communicate with other people So it's not going to be one -to -one identical the creature with the

03:08:00

Creator. We're gonna have a True relationship with God, but he condescends down to man.

03:08:06

He speaks to us in a true Anthropomorphic way that which we can understand

03:08:13

So I think the problem is is your view has a view of God not being immutable because you're saying well

03:08:20

Immutability is God not changing But clearly God does change and so I'm saying which one is it and my position says well

03:08:28

God seems to express himself in anthropomorphic ways He doesn't change his mind like a man, but he tells us if you do this this will occur

03:08:41

How much time is left? Okay, I've got one more question.

03:08:47

This one's directed towards a K Can you explain the difference between your theology and open theism?

03:08:56

Open theist take the position that if free choices really are free

03:09:03

Then God cannot know what they are he can know He can know what he determines

03:09:09

Or what he chooses to make happen like he can make somebody do something and he can know that ahead of time

03:09:15

He can know what he's gonna do, but he cannot foresee Free choices and And some of them

03:09:23

I don't know that all of them would say that some of them go to the point where they would say God could be mistaken on some things which is

03:09:30

Blasphemy so, but I don't but you see to make that why I disagree with it because first of all the

03:09:35

Bible says he foreknows the future and Because to say that he cannot know free choices means

03:09:42

I can get inside his mind and know how what he knows I can't do that. How do I know that God doesn't know free choices?

03:09:47

I know that he does because what he says, but how would I know? Otherwise, I can't get inside the mind of God and figure out how it operates

03:09:55

I Didn't sound too mean did it? No, I was good. I appreciate it So I actually touch like I think that the open theist is being more consistent because what they are saying

03:10:04

They recognize the distinction between foreknowledge and causation But they recognize that they're related if God foreknows everything that comes to pass and then creates causes that world

03:10:13

Well, that's a problem and a K just denies that this is a problem I want you to think about this with me with me at the moment of choice

03:10:20

They are locked in they can't do any other than how God foreknew and caused this world to happen

03:10:28

Open theist is that's a problem because in the moment of choice. I need that high -order Categorical ability to choose otherwise now and he says, you know man is free.

03:10:38

He's always Equivocating between conditional freedom and categorical freedom.

03:10:43

And so that's why I threw the debate I was just saying those Differences matter and when he says so man doesn't have the conditional ability to choose what

03:10:50

God ultimately determined I've said no, that's compatibilism and there's no contradiction Simply labeling something by that's compatible as doesn't explain it

03:10:59

Now, for example, he kept saying that I would keep assuming Incompatibilism by saying it's a rational

03:11:04

No I gave arguments for why it's a rational for God to determine your choices and you cannot do anything else and then hold you responsible

03:11:11

Is not rationally perceived in any other aspect of life Which I think I think he can correct me.

03:11:16

I think he said was true Well, then if you can't do in any other aspect of life and you can't rationalize it in theology

03:11:22

You can just say well, it's God Well, yeah, you could you could say that it's different But that doesn't mean you can rationalize.

03:11:30

No, I gave logical arguments And by the way, it's not just me even prominent Calvinist John MacArthur John Piper all say

03:11:36

I don't know how to harmonize it and they say I don't even try So they won't say the things that he said so it's not just like I'm assuming it

03:11:43

They don't assume libertarian freewill and they will clearly tell you I got no idea my peon brain

03:11:48

John MacArthur says cannot harmonize those two things He doesn't assume libertarian freewill, but he recognizes the problem.

03:11:57

You can't make me disagree with Johnny Mac Hey legacy standard

03:12:02

I use that Bible, you know, it's good from his University All right.

03:12:08

Well that concludes our evening tonight if you have any other questions I'm sure the guys will be glad to stick around and answer them, but we've gone over a little bit tonight

03:12:18

Thank you for your questions. Thank you for those of you that have attended in person. Thank you gentlemen. This was

03:12:24

Informed informative cordial and I think it was a productive evening. Yes Thank you, thank you

03:12:33

AK for being here tonight, thank you Jeremiah and for those of you online Thank you for joining us.

03:12:39

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