Voddie Baucham on Fault Lines and why he went to Zambia

Fault Lines and the Need to Name the Social Justice Movement

Hey, everyone. Welcome once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. We have a special guest today. We've actually had Dr. Bode Bauckham on once before, but this is the second time.

So thank you, Dr. Bauckham, for coming on. It's great to have someone who'll come back on the show. That's awesome.

Yeah, man. It's my pleasure. John, I love your show, man. I watch it. I appreciate it. I appreciate you, your friendship. So yeah, I'm excited, man.

Well, I appreciate you a lot and your friendship as well. I have to say, this trailer we're about to watch, it's a teaching series, and I want you to explain all that, but there's a trailer for this teaching series.

It's about eight minutes long, and I want to just show everyone that video, and then we're going to talk about it.

I wrote Fault Lines because of my love for the church. We're doing this project because of love for the church. I honestly believe that the critical social justice movement represents a threat, an existential threat, not a threat to Christianity per se, because Christianity can't be threatened.

God is on His throne. He will protect His bride. However, it represents a threat to unity within the body.

If we got to act like that the disadvantages between us are cultural and are not systemic, then we can't be together. Critical race theorists want to deliver us from the basement low ambitions of a thin, emaciated view of equality.

It represents a threat to the clarity of the message that we communicate.

Whiteness becomes the standard by which all good theology is judged.

Whiteness is rooted in plunder, in theft, in slavery, genocide of Native Americans sitting on stolen land.

So that if it's right theology, it's written by a white scholar who is contextualizing that theology for white audiences.

The gospel will always be the gospel. However, we are not always faithful in the way that we communicate the gospel.

Because silence is too high a price to pay to be unified when our necks are under a police knee.

Anti-racists fundamentally reject Savior theology. That goes right in line with racist ideas and racist theology. And we're not always faithful in the way that we apply the gospel.

When you sign up for this congregation, you're signing up to be part of racial justice. And if that's not for you, then this church is not for you.

The solution is fundamentally, yes, the gospel, the cross, the resurrection, but also dethroning white supremacy in all of the forms in which it shows up in Christian spaces.

So the goal here is to fight for faithfulness, to fight for the truth of that gospel, to fight for the bride of Christ, to fight for unity in the bride of Christ.

It's a breakthrough if you can get white people to acknowledge that our race privileges us in this society. That is like the second coming.

Virtually no white man thinks they are guilty. You have to push and push and push to the point where, hey, wait a minute, I think you're pushing an agenda. Well, you're finally listening.

My psychosocial development was inculcated in the water of white supremacy.

I have grown up with this invisible kind of bag of privilege. Like, I am a racist.

A system in which whiteness and white people are central and seen as inherently superior.

To people of color. I'm going to struggle with racism and white supremacy until the day I die and get my glorified body. What I'm talking about right now is white privilege. Because I am immersed in a culture where I benefit from racism all the time.

Nothing makes Anglos more angry than the idea of white privilege.

The Bible is very clear about the issue of justice. What does the Lord require of you to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God? We know this from Micah 6 .8. And so justice is not optional for the people of God.

That's why it's so critical that we understand what justice is. One of the dangers of the social justice movement is that it uses terminology that on the surface sounds like it ought to be what we as Christians are about.

Social justice. Am I against justice? Of course not. I'm for justice. Anti-racism. Am I pro-racism? Of course not. So what we need to do is get behind these terms. Get behind these words and look at two things.

Number one, look at what people mean when they use them in this cultural moment. And number two, evaluate that in light of what the Bible says about the same issues. So for example, when we talk about justice from a biblical perspective, justice means the righteous application, the impartial application of the law of God in a given circumstance.

We're told that we're not to be impartial to the poor or to the rich. We have to apply God's law equally across the board. Social justice means something very different. And so if we're going to have conversations about justice, if we're going to have conversations about contemporary issues of our day, we're going to have to do so in light of what the word of God has to teach about all of these issues and while evaluating the cultural moment.

You know, I've come a long way on a lot of these issues. I am a guy who had as probably the biggest hero of my life Malcolm X. I am a guy who was always very Afrocentric, very, you could say, social justice oriented.

As a believer, I came to a crossroads, and I recognized that for the most part, I identified a lot more with my blackness than I did with my Christianity. For the most part, it was much more important to me that I was black than it was that I was Christian.

Over time, I had to come to grips with the fact that in Christ, at the foot of the cross, there is no male or female. There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free. Over time, I had to come to grips with the fact that Christ died, not only to reconcile us vertically to the Father, but to reconcile us horizontally with one another, and that I am a member of the body of Christ, and that nothing supersedes that.

Nothing is more important than that. And it is that realization and my desire to see that unity manifested within the body of Christ. If you're doing this study with a group, my hope is that this would be a place where you can be open, where you can be honest, a place where you can evaluate the narratives that are flying all around you, and a place where you can judge those things, not according to your feelings, but according to the truth of the Scriptures, according to what thus saith the Lord.

I do believe that justice is incredibly important, but justice is only important to the degree that it is the justice that God demands. To that end, we have to be right about what the word justice means and about what God requires of His people in this critical moment.

Why He Used Concrete Examples in the Video

Wow, Vodie, that was an awesome video. And I have to say, what's really encouraging to me, and I got to ask you this question, is there were so many examples given in that eight-minute video about what you were talking about, concrete examples.

You showed Jarvis Williams, you showed Charlie Dates, you showed all kinds of woke teachers. I know we've showed clips on this podcast, a lot of the clips you even showed there, but there's a lot of reluctance, or at least there has been among Christians who are against the social justice movement, to get specific.

And you went there. Was that intentional?

Yeah, it was absolutely intentional. I did that in the book, so it would have been disingenuous to not do it in the video. But just like in the book, there's nothing malicious. I just think it's important for people to know what we're talking about.

So I don't dwell on it or anything, but I do give what I see as pertinent examples.

How the Fault Lines Series Is Designed for Churches and Small Groups

So what's the intention then? This is a series that people can use where in their churches and small groups, is it eight part? How does it work?

Yeah, it's all together, it's a 10-part series. There's some supplemental material in those 10 parts, but it's designed to be used in small group settings. You can definitely use it as an individual if you want to dive more into the topics and ideas in the book.

There's also a participant's guide to help further discussion, but it's really designed for groups to go through this and to have group discussions. So much of what's been happening is we've been sort of talking past each other and not really taking the time to sharpen each other, not really taking the time to define terms.

So I think it's very important that we do that, and this series is designed to help people do that. That's absolutely excellent.

We've needed stuff like this, and so I'm glad this material is out there. Now, I think Salem put it out. Is that where people go to find it? Is it Salem Media? Salem Now.

Salem Now. Yeah, SalemNow .com, and they can find it there, or on the Salem Now app, they can find it there as well. And we're also trying to put together some packages for larger groups that want to do it.

Okay, that's phenomenal. So Salem. Now, you can go find this material and then use it at your church, use it in a small group, use it wherever. I have to ask a question because I know that a lot of political conservatives are concerned about this, and I know Salem's often associated with more political conservatives.

Is this a good tool that can be used, let's say, if you're in a Tea Party group or some political group, and say, why don't we study the social justice movement and in so doing, bring the gospel in? Is that a way we can use it?

Absolutely, and that's the hope. I mean, that's what I try to do in the book, and that's what we try to do here as well, is always make this from a gospel perspective. This issue matters because it is an affront to the gospel.

So it could absolutely be used like that, and I think used successfully in that way.

Why the Social Justice Debate Is Not Going Away

You know, one of the things that I've heard a few times in the last year is that the social justice movement is dead. That's not the issue that's of concern right now. I couldn't disagree more, and I'm assuming you feel like I do.

You obviously think it's important enough to put this material out there now. Do you think that this is going away anytime soon, or where are we at?

No, it's not going away because it's rooted in Marxism and critical theory, and Marxism and critical theory are not going anywhere. Marxism and critical theory, this is sort of a guiding light, if you will, of all of the leftist progressive movements in our culture.

Intersectionality, you know, the whole LGBTQIA2S plus whatever, the alphabet mafia, that's all about intersectionality. And so, again, this is not going anywhere. We've got to understand the roots and foundations in order to understand that it hasn't gone anywhere, and that it's not going anywhere.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think one of the things I've noticed is it's becoming more institutionalized, in other words, ingrained. It's part of policy now in many places. So maybe the controversy isn't as heated as it was, but it's certainly there, and it's staying there.

So this is great, and I would just encourage people listening to take advantage of this. There's not a lot of material out there like this, so go out and get it.

Part of the reason there's not a lot of material like this out there is because, you know, there are a lot of Christian publishers that just wouldn't touch it. Really? Salem's one of the very few publishers that have been willing to publish anti-woke Christian books.

There are others who are more amenable to it now, but initially, nobody wanted to touch this stuff.

Yeah, that's interesting, and I don't, you know, I'm not going to ask you for names of publishing companies or anything. I found the same thing when I was trying to publish on this, too, that there just wasn't a lot of room there.

So, I mean, eventually, I kind of went independent, but it's good to know Salem, which is not, they're not even a Christian publisher. They're more, like I said, politically conservative, I think, right?

Well, it's an imprint of Regnery. Okay. So Regnery is the parent company, and this is kind of the imprint of Regnery that does conservative religious material.

Why Zambia Matters for Christian Education and Cultural Transformation

Yeah, well, that's great. I was hoping I could ask you a little bit, unless you want to keep talking about social justice, about what you're doing in Africa, because I know when you come to the United States, often in the last few years, there's always a hot topic, right?

Every single time. Always. And everyone wants you to weigh in on it, right? And, you know, it's like we're constantly fighting, and maybe that'll never change until Christ comes back. I don't know, but, you know, you're doing, most of your time, I think people miss this, and it's one of the things, I just have to say, that I respect about you so much, is you could ladder climb.

You could be in the United States. You could be a political commentator, or really, probably whatever you want to be, and make a pretty penny off of it, but you choose to be in Zambia. You choose to be helping a country that you were not born into, but there's people that you love there, and you see opportunity, and you're not going to forsake that for the success, I guess, you could have here in the United States.

So I just want to say that, but since the majority of your time and effort is over there, could you give people a little bit of an idea about what are you doing, and why is it important if they want to support it?

Yeah, we came here almost eight years ago. It'll be eight years in August to help start the African Christian University. It's a classical Christian liberal arts university started by the Reformed Baptist of Zambia.

The Reformed Baptist, the group of Reformed Baptist churches here in Zambia, and it was an opportunity that just fit. It was an opportunity that, you know, I came here for the first time in 2006, and there was just this kindred spirit between myself and the brethren here, and then eight years later, the Lord calls me and my wife to come here and be part of starting this school.

So seven years ago, the school launched, and we've been plugging away ever since. It's been a battle. It's been an uphill battle. Starting a university is kind of like starting a church, and the metaphor that always resonated with me about planting a church was that it's like building a 747 at 30 ,000 feet.

Right. So yeah, that's what we're in the middle of.

Yeah. So I was looking at the website for the university, and it says this on African Christian University's background statement, and I'm going through the end of it here, but it says, this is the goal of the African Christian University, to know and exalt God in the pursuit of all truth via every avenue available.

Through this ever-maturing relationship with God, students can turn their talents and education towards improving and developing their communities where cultural transformation of Africa can occur as Christ works through them.

Now, I wanted to get your take on the statement, and as you know, part of it is because this discussion has already come up in the United States about the role of cultural Christianity, whether it's good for Christians to be involved in the public, civil spheres, how should they be involved, if they're supposed to be involved.

Obviously, you have thought about that somewhat. You're in an institution that's committed to not just spreading the gospel, but also making disciples in these various avenues. So could you speak to that?

What do you mean by that, and how does that look in your context?

Christian Higher Education and the Fruit of the Protestant Reformation

Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of people would say, especially when we first came, oh, that's awesome, you're going over there to start a Bible college, or you're going over there to start a seminary. No, it's a classical Christian, the Rural Arts University.

We offer degrees in agriculture, business, education, theology, and we plan on adding things like engineering and the sciences and medicine and things of that nature. And the view is for it to be a transformational institution.

And I find it ironic, and Zambians find it ironic, right? Because they look at the West and they look at America, and what they see is the fruit of Christian faithfulness, the fruit of gospel faithfulness.

And a culture that has been benefiting from that fruit, right, that is now turning around and is ashamed of the root that produced that fruit, while they're saying, you know, no, no, no, we want to experience those benefits that you are experiencing.

And we believe that faithfulness to the gospel is a means through which God will bring that about. So it's really ironic to look at, you know, all the stuff that's going on from both sides. And it's also very interesting to watch it, especially because, you know, I remember when everybody started throwing around the term, you know, white Christian nationalism.

And again, all three of those words are important because they have intersectional value, right? And over here, this is a nation that is a constitutionally Christian republic, right? It is in the preamble of their constitution that Zambia is a Christian nation.

And it is a nation that is making every effort to inculcate Christian values, to inculcate Christian truth, in order to reap some of the benefits that the West has reaped. Because here's the fact, if you look at the globe, right, you get out your globe, and you ask yourself, where are the most prosperous, the safest, the least corrupt, you know, where are people the freest, where are women the safest?

And the answer is going to be trace the Protestant Reformation. Even if you get to Europe, Northern Europe versus Southern Europe, Western Europe versus Eastern Europe, the answer is, trace the Protestant Reformation.

And there is fruit. And so people here can be honest about that and say, yes, we see what God has done. And it's really ironic, when I go back to the US to do an event, where people are saying, no, Christianity is the evil hegemonic power that leads to the oppression of all of these intersectional minorities.

Yeah, you know, I just have to say for the record, I didn't say Christian nationalism. I didn't use that term. You brought it up. So if anyone's going to get mad at this podcast, Bodhi was the one who brought that up.

I do have the Zambian Constitution in front of me. I do want to read. You referenced it. It says, We the people of Zambia acknowledge the supremacy of God Almighty. Literally the first line. Declare the Republic a Christian nation while upholding a person's right to freedom of conscience, belief of religion.

Now it goes on to other things, but that's how it starts. What's it like being in a country that values that? You come from the United States. And I know you're from Los Angeles. My family's from Los Angeles.

Los Angeles, not a very Christian place now. And you're in a place that's in their Constitution. Do you see advantages to this? Yeah, there are.

Advantages to it. But John, here's the deal. The people of Zambia would trade that preamble today for the fruit that you and I take for granted every day in the U .S. They would absolutely stop on a dime and say you can have the words because what they want is not just the words.

What they want is that fruit. So Zambia, we don't need to go over all of Zambian history.

Or anything, but why is that fruit not there yet? You're part of building this at the university. Is it the beginning stages of starting to reap this fruit?

It's a very young country. They got their independence in 1964. So it's a very young country. And not only is it a young country in terms of how long the Republic has been independent, but it's young in terms of the population.

I think the median age here is somewhere around 17. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's a very young country.

That is very young, yeah. What can missionaries. Okay, so there's young people probably even listening to this podcast thinking considering missions, considering maybe even going to Africa somewhere. Is that what's needed?

What's needed right now? Is it more missionaries from the United States to come over? Or what resources are needed?

You know, my thinking has really grown and transformed on this issue over the last eight years that we've been here. And, you know, the bottom line is we need people to be faithful. We need people to examine their gifts, talents, abilities, and desires and to do so honestly.

And having examined those to look for God-ordained opportunities to serve and to steward those gifts, talents, abilities, and desires. For some people, that's going to mean that's going to mean leaving where they live and going somewhere else.

For us, we didn't do that because somehow we'd always dreamed about being in Africa or this. It was God opened the door. There was a short-term opportunity. And we saw immediately a unique fit. And then that unique fit began to make even more sense providentially as the Zambians started working toward the African Christian University.

And there was an opportunity there that it seemed like I was just made for. And I think people need to do that. We've had people come here and not stay. Many people go to the mission field and end up not staying.

And a lot of that is because we're not following this process. We're not looking at our gifts, talents, abilities, and desires and trying to steward those within the context of God-given opportunities.

And the other thing I'll say is this. When we did this, I believe in 2006, I knew that somehow I would be involved here. But two things had to happen. Number one, God had to call my wife. And number two, our elders had to affirm it.

I didn't go to my elders in Houston and say, hey guys, God called us to Zambia. We're leaving. I don't believe that would have been appropriate. That would not have honored and respected the role of my elders in my life.

And so we went to our elders and let them know what was going on and asked them. We didn't tell them. We asked them. Now, of course, when we did, they had been watching this develop over eight years, some of them just like we had.

So I think people make a mistake when they skip that step. They look at something on a map or they go somewhere and all of a sudden it's God has called me here and then you announce to people who are supposed to speak into your life that it's a done deal rather than coming to those people, seeking wisdom, seeking guidance and seeking their input.

And then we end up following a passion and.

Not bearing very much fruit. Yeah, that's excellent advice for people who are wondering what is God's will? What can I do? How do I invest? Yeah, elders are there for a reason. You know, one of the things that I've seen discussions on lately and you would be in a unique position to talk about this and it's so relevant for even missions work in general is when do you become identified with a people?

In other words, you were born in Los Angeles. You've been in the United States. Now you're in Zambia. Are you Zambian? Have they accepted you into their culture? Do they see you as an outsider trying to help them?

Where do you put yourself? Yeah, if.

Identity, Rootedness, and Being an Outsider in Zambia

Being here has convinced me of anything, it is that I am not an African. Really? No, no, I am absolutely not an African. I am an American through and through. We've been accepted. We've been embraced.

We've been loved. All of that has been great. It's been incredible. But we are outsiders. Everybody knows it. People actually appreciate that. They appreciate the fact that we're outsiders and we're here.

It's really interesting too. Being a Black American serving in Africa whenever I meet Africans, whether it's here or whether it's... I was picked up one time at the airport. I was doing an event and somebody picked me up.

I don't know if it was an Uber or the group had sent a car service or whatever. My driver was an African man. We started talking and he found out that I was serving in Zambia. He was like, why? I said, what do you mean?

I'm giving the whole story of why we went. He goes, well, are you Zambian? I said, no. Is your wife Zambian? No. How about your parents? I said, no. He goes, well, why? He could not comprehend that a person from America would go in that direction when most of the people over here would give everything they have to go in the other direction.

People really appreciate that we've made the decision to come here, to be here, to bring our children here. That's the thing. We don't see ourselves as more than... We're here to serve.

That's a funny story. I've heard similar things in other countries when Western missionaries or American missionaries go over. It's a witness, I guess. They see that and they're like, wow, they must really love us or love God enough to sacrifice.

That's awesome. One of the things I was thinking, too, as you were saying that, because you're Black and you're in Zambia. There might be some people who think that's a more natural fit or something like that because of that.

The thing is, you and I probably have much more in common than you or either of us would with someone in Zambia. You talk about this in your book, Fault Lines. When you got there, you kissed the ground or you cried.

It was something like that.

No. When I got here for the first time, when I first time I came and visited, there was this African man who eventually embraced me as a grandson. He was almost 90 years old. I was coming to preach at his son's church.

He asked me, he welcomed me, big old smile. He said, is this your first time in Africa? I said, yes, sir, it is. He grabs me. He kisses my face and he says, son, welcome home. I lost it, man. My father died a few months before I came here for the first time.

He always wanted to visit Africa. I lost it. I'm like, Lord, you got to give me what I need to be able to preach in the service. It was an incredibly emotional experience. The other emotional experience for me, and I write about this also at the end of Fault Lines, is when I went to the copper mill up in northern Zambia to a slave tree.

A lot of people don't know this, but there's a slave route that went through Angola. Not everybody went through Sierra Leone and Ghana or whatever. Anyway, there's this catchment area where they would take the slaves before they would take them off to the coast and ship them off.

It just dawned on me. White people didn't come into the interior of Africa hunting for my ancestors. My ancestors were sold by these people. First enslaved here, and then sold off to be enslaved in the West.

Growing up in America, growing up in American schools, growing up in American society, there's just this real simple black hat, white hat view of slavery that is very far from the truth. It was really emotional to come to grips with that as well.

Family History, Slavery, and the Need for Rootedness

That's a special thing, though. It's one of the things I've been trying to let everyone know. There's a lot of young men that listen to this podcast, more so than I realized. I've noticed a lot of insecurity with young men, and identity issues in particular.

They moved around 50 places. Their parents aren't together. They had abuse issues growing up. Maybe there's vices. There's all kinds of things. It's not the only thing. Obviously, being one in Christ and being fulfilled spiritually is the first thing, but I do think God made us to be parts of families, be parts of peoples, have a history, have a rootedness.

I think I even might have teared up when I was reading your book a few years ago and saw that because I don't have that experience. There's other things in my lineage. I can see God's hand. I can see how my ancestors came here in Virginia as indentured servants.

We were never rich. None of my ancestors that I know of even were able to own slaves because we were always poor. God used that to bring us here and to give us opportunity. I don't know. There's a rootedness there.

Even though I know you're not Zambian, I just felt like that was a beautiful thing. I wanted to hear you say it. Thank you for sharing that story. I know you're tired. We should probably land the plane for everyone unless there's anything more you wanted to share.

People can go to Salem Media if they want to find your teaching series on wokeness and social justice. If they want to get in touch with you or the mission... By the way, to make another Zambian connection,.

One of the things that really... I don't know that I've even shared this in other places, but I was under contract with another publisher to write another book. It was a two-book deal, one book and then another book to be named.

All this stuff happened with George Floyd, Black Lives Matter, and all this sort of stuff. I'm here in Zambia when all this is going on. Zambians... I write about this in Fault Lines as well, but Zambians start talking about the police in America and so on and so forth.

I'm like, wait a minute, because here the police stop you. They have these stops on the side of the road and they'll find some kind of infraction and you've got to pay your fine in cash on the side of the road.

We're in a store one day and this guy starts yelling and moaning and the cops are carrying him out and beating him as they take him out of the store. We're just looking with mouths agape like, what in the world?

Everybody knows that we're Americans. We're standing in line in the store. They can tell we're Americans. They just look and say, it's okay, he's a thief. That's what the police do. When I'm here in this country and people here start talking about American police and this, that, and the other, I was like, you know what, this has been on the back burner for a decade.

It was hard to find people who wanted to publish it back then, but I went back to the publisher and I said, listen, this needs to be the second book. Actually, it needs to go first. They said, we agree, but not with us.

They gave me an opportunity to find somebody else who would go ahead and publish Fault Lines. Providentially, Salem was willing to do that when a lot of people weren't. That experience here of watching Zambians and knowing the absolute corruption and abuse in policing here, I've been stopped in the United States and had courteous, professional, respectful, you know what I mean?

I've had some, not as much of that as well, but.

Nothing like the norm here. I was like, no, it's a bridge too far, man. I got to do it. It's kind of a Western luxury, isn't it? It's for people who have benefited so much from Christianity over so long and had prosperity that can even sit around debating whether or not the police are too brutal when you see the rest of the world as you describe.

Yeah, that's interesting. It's unbelievable. I was actually just in Mexico not long ago with my wife and the police there are different too. Not quite to what you just described, but much more direct and they'll stop you without reason, probable cause perhaps.

That's one of the things that I just think I take for granted living in the United States. Well, they have that probable cause. They can't just stop me, right? In other countries, they're like, what are you talking about?

Yeah, they can. Anyway, it was great to see you and to talk with you.

Thank you for all you're doing once again. God bless. Likewise, man. I appreciate your work, man. I really do. I'm grateful for it. You keep doing what you're doing. Keep plugging away. At some point, we've got to be in the same place at the same time again.

It's been too long.

Yeah, it will happen. I've been talking to Jay, so we'll figure it out at some point. I would love to see you in person. God bless. Have a good night. You too, man.