April 24, 2019 Show with Geoff Thomas on “The Life & Ministry of Dr. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 24th day of April 2019.

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And I am absolutely thrilled to have a returning guest today who is one of my favorite preachers of all time.

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His name is Rev. Jeff Thomas, and I have a very strong feeling that most of my listeners know exactly who he is.

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But for those of you who do not know Rev. Jeff Thomas, he began his ministry at the

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Alfred Place Baptist Church in Everest with Wales in 1965, and remained there as pastor for 50 years until his recent retirement.

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And he is an author, and today we are going to be addressing the life and ministry of one of his favorite

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Christians from the 20th century, Dr. D. Martin Lloyd -Jones. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Rev.

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Jeff Thomas. Thank you very much. It's an honor for me to be on the show and to speak to you and to speak to you about someone who has had such a definitive influence over me and many like me.

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Praise God. Well, I know that you are no longer the pastor at Alfred Place Baptist Church, but for the sake of our listeners who either live in Wales, we do have listeners in Wales, but also for the sake of those who may be visiting there, they may have family there, can you tell us something about this wonderful church where you served for over half a century as their pastor?

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Yes. Well, yes, it's a little university town on the

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Irish Sea on the far west coast of the UK. And it has a university of 10 ,000, and 10 ,000 people live in the town.

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And I went there, and I thought

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I was starting at the top. I never felt I needed to go anywhere else.

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To do what I was doing there, walk with God and preach his word to a people that kept saying year after year, continue to preach to us.

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And so then I, well, my wife grew ill at the end, and she had

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Alzheimer's, and I nursed her, and then she passed away, and I had retired.

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And my dear grandson, he was a member of the congregation, five years, and he went off to seminary, and we realized how much we esteemed him, and so the church almost unanimously called him.

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And he is now living in the parsonage where I lived, and he is raising three little boys where I raised three little girls.

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And the church loves him, and he's done two years there, and it's a very happy union of preacher and congregation.

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And your, or their, I should say, website describes this church as an independent and Baptist church who stands together for the historic

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Christian faith based on the Bible. For any more details, would you categorize this as a

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Reformed Baptist church? Yes, a 1689 Confession Church, that's what it is. That's what

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I thought. I couldn't imagine you preaching anywhere else for 50 years. That's right. Yes.

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And did I remember how to pronounce Aberystwyth correctly? You did it well. The rust is, build it round the rust.

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Aberystwyth. Aberystwyth. So the emphasis is on the rust. It is.

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And if anybody would like more information about this fine church, you can go to alfredplacechurch .org

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.uk. alfredplacechurch .org .uk. And I've got over a thousand sermons, the full text of what

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I preached, long series on Genesis and Zechariah and Mark and Luke and Romans, Revelation, Philippians, the

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Apostle Epistles, Ephesians, the whole text of all those sermons.

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And I get many hits. Just go to Google and put in Jeff Thomas sermons and they'll take you there.

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And I was just talking to a pastor friend yesterday, and I asked him, are you preaching on Mark's gospel?

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He said, oh, how far you got? Chapter 9. Oh, very good. He said, yes, I'm getting help from a certain

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Welshman. So he was reading my sermons and finding there my help to him, and I'm so glad.

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That's my gift to the Church of Jesus Christ. Amen. Well, I am so blessed that my very first pastor, when

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I first left Roman Catholicism and became a born -again believer at what was then called

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Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, and it later became, after a merger, Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York.

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But my very first pastor, Mike Gaydosh, who operates Solid Ground Christian Books in Port St.

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Lucie, Florida now, he introduced me to your ministry many years ago. I am so delighted that he did and so grateful that he did.

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Yes, what a lovely brother he is. Amen. Well, you're also going to be preaching.

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You're one of the preachers at the Foundations Conference, which is coming up in December of this year in New York City.

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I am so delighted to be returning to this conference. I have been to all of them for the last four years,

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I believe, and it's in the heart of Manhattan. And this year they're going to be focusing on the theme

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Prayer and Preaching, the Foundations of Ministry. That's December 19th and 20th.

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I will be mentioning the whole roster later on, but you are one of the speakers. I don't even know if you are aware yet, but do you know what you will specifically be speaking on under the heading of Prayer and Preaching?

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I've been urged to give a word to younger ministers and pastors from my experience and a word of encouragement and exhortation from what

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I've observed and known in my own life. They've seen some interviews that I've done and that's the theme.

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And then at the banquet, to close, I'm just going to give another similar sort of word.

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Steve Lawson is also speaking and I'm looking forward very much. I get great help from his preaching.

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Oh, yes. I'm looking forward to seeing Dr. Lawson again. I've seen him a number of times preach and I'm looking forward to another opportunity.

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And when you mentioned young pastors, I immediately thought of one of the speakers there this

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December. I don't know if you've ever heard him, but you are going to be very blessed by Reverend Armin Tomassian.

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I don't know if you've heard him yet, but he is, I believe, going to be a household name amongst Reformed Christians over the next decade.

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Reverend Armin Tomassian is a pastor within the Free Presbyterian Church of North America denomination.

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And he's originally from Northern Ireland, but is now pastoring in South Carolina. And I am just thoroughly blessed beyond words by this brother.

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And he's a young man, but he has gifts and wisdom beyond his youth. Other people have told me, oh,

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I said, who are these other men? And then they've said to me exactly what you said to me. So it's whetted my appetite to listen to him and get to know him, have a meal with him when we are in New York.

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And by the way, congratulations are in order for Reverend Jeff Thomas. I just learned this before we went on the air, but our dear brother has found a new bride after his first wife went home to be with the

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Lord, and he has married an old friend, correct? Yes, that's right. I've married

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Barbara. And we've known each other since 1977. And my girls, my three daughters then, love her, and she's been to all their weddings.

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And my girls were very encouraging. Get married as soon as you can, dad. So they know there's someone to look after me in my decrepitude.

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Well, I hardly view you as being decrepit. You've got more energy and passion than most people my age and younger.

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Well, it's extraordinary how God keeps me, and I hope I'll redeem these years.

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I've got a couple of books coming out. I've got Life of Brownlow North, that's coming out this summer.

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Joel Beakey is publishing that. I think Brownlow North is the greatest evangelist of the 19th century.

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And then I've got a book called, I've called it You Could Have It All, and it's really getting at the prosperity gospel.

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A criticism of it. You could have it all. You could know God. You could know yourself.

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You could have forgiveness of your sins. You could have all things working together for your good. You could have God supplying all your need.

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You could know contentment in whatever state you're in. You could have hope at the end of eternal life with Jesus Christ.

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And it's got ten chapters like that, which, you know, compared to, oh, the feeble greenbacks and the big car in the driveway, that health and wealth are saying, what are they compared to the blessings that the mere believer who trusts in Jesus Christ can have?

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Well, I am looking forward to that, and we have to have you back on the show to discuss that when it's in print.

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Very good. Who's publishing? Oh, Joel Beeky with the Reformation Heritage Books? Yes, that's right.

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Yes, Joel's a friend. I've known Joel since the early 1990s, and, in fact,

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I was one of the people that was involved in getting Joel on the radio for the very first time in his life because his former denomination did not believe in using the radio.

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It's a bit of a hyper -Calvinist denomination that Joel left. Of course.

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And what a powerful preacher he is. Oh, what a gift he is to the Church. I'm just finishing reading.

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I've got two chapters to go now of the 500 on his book, Reformed Preaching, and it's been very, very helpful.

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Praise God. Well, we are discussing the life and ministry of Dr. D.

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Martin Lloyd -Jones today. Oh, by the way, I just want to quick let our listeners know, I think

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I forgot to give the website for the Foundations Conference. I'm sure I'll be repeating this later, but the

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Foundations Conference, if anybody would like to register, it's being held, as I said, December 19th and 20th in New York City, and our guest

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Jeff Thomas is just one of the speakers on the roster there. Go to thefoundationsconference .com.

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That's thefoundationsconference .com, and all the details that you will need for this conference, December 19th and 20th in New York City, are right there.

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But going back to the life and ministry of Dr. D. Martin Lloyd -Jones, did you know him personally?

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I know that he just went home to be with the Lord in the early 1980s, I believe, perhaps 1981.

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That's right, March 1st. And did you know him personally? Yes, well, 60 years ago,

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September 1958, I was almost 20. I was still a teenager.

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I'd finished in school, hadn't started university, and I'd been to summer camp.

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I'd been a Christian two or three years and hung around the offices, and they were talking one night, smiling and reverently, an uncharacteristic reverence that's for students, about a man they called the doctor.

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And the way they talked about him, they just, this was obviously somebody special.

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And then I noticed in the Saturday night newspaper, the religious notices that he was preaching at an ordination service in Cardiff on the

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Wednesday night. So I took a train into Cardiff and walked along Cathedral Road to the Memorial Hall, and the place was packed, men in suits, women with hats.

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We sung Top Lady and Wesley and Watts, and he preached, as he set aside to Dr.

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Egan Evans for the ministry, on We Are Ambassadors for Christ.

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And that was my first encounter with him, and it was different.

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And I wanted to know why, and why was this important? And that was just before I started university, and soon

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I was reading what is my favorite book of his, Studies in the Sermon on the Mount. And I found that enormously helpful.

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And then a similar volume of an earlier generation, J .C.

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Ryle's Holiness. And those two volumes became really the foundation of what

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I considered the preaching ministry to be.

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It showed me the beauty of a righteous life.

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I wanted to live like that, and I wanted to preach like that. And so then

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I had to explore about this man and who he was, and I heard him every year, and we had many conversations together.

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And at the centenary of my church in 1970, the doctor came and preached twice for us at that time.

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But alternate years, he would come and preach in Aberystwyth, and I would be the chairman of the meeting.

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You see, we always look back in Wales to the Great Revival, the last

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Great Revival in the British Isles in 1904 in Wales. And there were three movements that came out of that revival.

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There was firstly one of the branches of the Pentecostal Church, the Apostolic Church, and the esteemed

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Pastor Dan, who was a man of awesome godliness and earnestness.

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And they formed a network of little Pentecostal churches, the Apostolic Church.

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And then the second movement that came out were the Children of the Revival, as they were called.

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And they were the people who remained in the churches and around the

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Sunday school, took the young people's meetings, prayed in the prayer meetings, were deacons and elders, and were not discerning.

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But whenever there was a gospel preached, whenever Dr. Lloyd -Jones would visit in those next 30 years, their hearts beat faster.

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And they were some of the loveliest men I knew. I'd speak in the old people's home in Aberystwyth once a month.

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And there was Mrs. Harris, pint -sized, five foot. And after I finished speaking, she would propose the vote of thanks.

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She'd get up and she'd say, Now you listen to what this young man has said to us. You listen to what he said.

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I wasn't a Christian until 1904 when

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God met with me and saved me. And you need to be saved too. And there were these people, the

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Children of the Revival, that were scattered. And then there was the third group, and they were the mission hall people, the tin tabernacles, people who spoke to their fellow members when they themselves had an experience they called entering into the blessing.

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And they were urging their fellow church members to have this experience, to irritating them.

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And they were driven out of many churches. And they formed these corrugated iron meeting places along the

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South Wales Industrial Strip and the valleys. They were the three movements that came out of the 1904 revival.

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But Lloyd -Jones' family, they didn't belong to any of those movements at all.

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They were nominal Presbyterians. At that time, the denomination was called the

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Calvinistic Methodists. And that's where they were.

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They went Pentecostal. They had no experience of the revival. They were suspicious of the revival.

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His father and his mother, they weren't tin tabernacle people at all.

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So he had none of those influences. But then

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God always does something new. And God did something new then in 1921 to a medical student in Barts and St.

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Thomas' in London, one of the top students of his year, one who was working with Lord Horton, who was the king's physician, and had a glittering career mapped out in front of him.

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But he said to me in my little room upstairs in the hospital,

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I had good times in that room. And I love the modesty and the mystery of his description of his communion with God and his time with God as more and more the gospel of Jesus Christ gripped him and touched him and changed him so that he increasingly desired to become a preacher of the gospel and bypass this career.

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When he went to Sandfields to preach as a candidate in the mid -1920s, the second time he preached there, they were voting that night on giving him a call.

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And he got the night train back to London for a five -hour journey. And they were voting on him.

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And he then went to the hospital, and there was a little note in the pigeonhole.

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And he took the note out, and he had a look at it. And the note said, The chief registrar wants to see you immediately.

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So he went upstairs to the chief registrar's office and went in. And there was the chief registrar and the senior doctor.

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And they were both pouring over newspapers that were stretched out over the table.

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And they said, Is this true? And they pointed at the newspapers, and the newspapers' heading in one prominent column was,

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London doctor leaves medicine to become a preacher in Port Talbot.

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Is this true? Oh, I'm terribly sorry, he said to them. You were to be the first to know about this.

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There's been a leak to the press. I'm desperately sorry. My deep apologies.

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Is this true, they said. Yes, he said, it is true. You're giving up medicine to become a preacher?

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Yes, he said. And then they persuaded him of all the advantages that he would have, all the good he would do as a doctor.

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And he was obdurate. He had come to that crisis, and he put his hand to the plow, as Jesus says, and he wasn't looking back.

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And then they berated him and told him how foolish he was to turn away from this now, to go to a steel town and to be a preacher.

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And finally he looked at them and he said, When you and I have done everything for them, we can do.

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They are still going to die. And he had a message, which in the most famous text of the

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Bible tells us of the great hope of the Christian gospel. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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And that was the constraint. He could see how so many of the people that he had been ministering to and counseling were in the unhealthy state they were because of the way they were abusing their bodies with excess.

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And the only deliverance that he knew for that was through the power of the indwelling spirit applying to them that redemption and forgiveness that's in Jesus Christ.

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And so he never looked back on that, on his call to the ministry of the gospel.

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And, you know, he was there in Port Talbot from 1925 to 1936, 1937.

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And then he was in London and then the war came. And you might have thought at that time that he had exhausted himself and his ministry and he'd had this experience.

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And his great interest then was in politics and that he could have stood as a candidate, say, for the

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Labour Party in the 1945 election. He would have been grabbed by any committee in any of those vast areas of South Wales that are sent back with a great majority

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Labour member of parliament. He would have been elected without a doubt.

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He would have probably been in the cabinet by the end of the 1940s.

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And then next time Labour came in, he would have been cabinet minister and probably would have ended up as prime minister.

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I think of him as the greatest prime minister that we never had. But he never looked back.

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He kept his commitment, his consecration, pure and clear that he had been called to the greatest work that it's possible for anyone to do to be a preacher of the everlasting gospel of the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

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And he kept that. He preached for the last time in 1980 in Aberystwyth, the last time in Wales.

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He preached once more in England. I had the honour of chairing that meeting. And then the next year on March 1st, he went home to glory and he's left us a legacy then of all these wonderful volumes of his preaching.

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And new volumes continually come out now and they are read by hundreds of thousands of people all over the world.

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He is now known and loved by millions more that knew him and sat under his ministry when he was still alive.

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I think the day that Christ returns, there'll be somebody in the world that morning reading a book of Dr.

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Lloyd -Jones and finding his faith rekindled or regenerated.

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And he'll be trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ that day through the living work.

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All flesh is as grass and all the glory of man is the flower of the field. The grass withereth, the flower thereof fadeth away, but the word of the

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Lord endureth. It lasts. And I'm so glad of 60 years ago that I first heard him.

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And our friendship was very precious. And his example and his ministry was powerful in my own life.

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I needed a role model. I couldn't find one in the denomination that I was a part of, but I found it in him.

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Praise God. And by the way, I know that Banner of Truth has a DVD called

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Logic on Fire, the life and legacy of Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones that our listeners should, every one of you listening should get a hold of this at banneroftruth .org.

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Banneroftruth .org. You can also get it at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com, cvbbs .com.

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Logic on Fire. It almost sounds oxymoronic. Two things that normally don't go together, logic and fire.

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But what a great title for a DVD on the life and legacy of Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones.

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It describes his preaching. Preaching is theology on fire.

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The word of God applied. Of course, it goes back to the road to Emmaus.

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And the opening up of the scriptures there, did not our hearts burn within us as he carried with us, as he stayed with us by the way.

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And let me tell you about him. He was a Welshman, of course.

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He had no class consciousness. He had no classy accent.

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He had a lovely London Welsh accent. He was courteous and sensitive with a warm vitality.

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He's buried in Wales in a little graveyard 45 minutes south of Aberystwyth in Newcastle, Emlyn.

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I remember when John Stott died three years ago. John Stott was cremated.

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And the Christian people in Holland were just amazed. And one of the newspapers, the

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Dachblad, called me and said, Is this true? Do you evangelicals get cremated that unthought of in Holland?

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I had always thought John Stott would be in a lovely country graveyard under an elm tree, and a nice place to visit and see the testimony.

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But no, he was cremated. But Dr. O 'Jones and his wife are there in a row of graves.

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And the text I preached, nothing but Jesus Christ and him crucified, and heirs together of the grace of life, he and his wife.

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Yes, so a Welshman. And then very forthcoming, not reserved, not reticent.

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He took you into his confidence like the

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Welsh head of a family. He opened up to you. And as you were a minister and he was a minister, he saw you.

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There was a parity and a sharing. And he spoke to me then. He spoke to me of J .I.

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Parker and Iain Murray and John Murray and Westminster and John Stott.

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And he spoke to me of the man he had worked with when he first went to Westminster.

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And he spoke about me to other people.

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I remember some friends of mine many years ago said to him, Oh, we're going on with Monday to a

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Bible conference and Jeff Thomas is speaking. And the doctor said, Oh, you've got to be careful with him.

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He's a bit extreme. If you had had three years at Westminster Seminary under Cornelius Van Dyl and John Murray, then you would be a bit of a

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Turk in what you believed and what you spoke about. And I was.

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I took no survivors in my early years. And he was right to say, you know,

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I wasn't. I was learning. I was on a steep learning curve. And so he was forthcoming and plain.

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And he had his foibles to, you know, he would say, I don't preach at weddings. So if you wanted a sermon at your wedding, you had to get one of your friends in to do the sermon.

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He would marry you. He found children's meetings to be most difficult.

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Once a year he had to speak to the Sunday school at Westminster Chapel. The most difficult meeting of the year, he would say.

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He disliked organizing committee work.

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When he had to, he was very competent. But he felt the more organization that was required, then the more complex it became.

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And so it was less spiritual. He loved the spontaneous within the moral and theological structures of the

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New Testament. His view of baptism was different. He didn't believe in infant baptism, but he did believe in baptism by immersion.

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He poured on the head the new converts at the business meeting of the church.

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That's how he did it. Wow. Now was that common amongst Calvinistic Methodists? The pouring was common, but of course they poured on babies as well.

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And they did it on Sundays. It was a big occasion for the families of all that were involved.

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But it was nothing like that for Lloyd -Jones. In fact, could we pick up right where you left off there when we return from our station break?

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Because we have to go to our first break right now. And we'll pick right up where you left off on his view of baptism.

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If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for my guest today, Jeff Thomas, about the

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Dr. D. Martin Lloyd -Jones, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jeff Thomas right after these messages from our sponsors.

34:21

My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries.

34:27

I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Master's Seminary in Los Angeles.

34:33

I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students, Andy Woodard, serves as the pastor.

34:39

It's called New Covenant Church, NYC. They are a Reformed Baptist church that meets in Midtown Manhattan.

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You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc .nyc.

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They believe in a sovereign God who commands all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.

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If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching, which is simply biblical preaching, in New York City, I'd like to recommend that you visit

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New Covenant Church, NYC. Again, their information can be found at www .ncc

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.nyc. Have a great day. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round

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Mike Gaydosh, as I just said earlier in the program during my interview with Jeff Thomas, he was my very first pastor.

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That's solid -ground -books .com. We are now back with Jeff Thomas. We are discussing the life and ministry of Martin Lloyd -Jones, and you were speaking about his views of baptism, which were unusual for a

43:49

Calvinist Methodist because he believed in credo baptism, the baptism of believers alone, but he did not immerse.

43:56

He poured. He reminded me, not only when you mentioned his views of baptism, but when you mentioned

44:03

Port Talbot, Wales, you reminded me of my friend who is now with the Lord, Peter Jeffrey, who pastored the church that was first pastored by Dr.

44:14

Martin Lloyd -Jones, Sanfields in Port Talbot. I had the rare privilege of having

44:20

Peter Jeffrey visit my mother when she was dying of pancreatic cancer, and he was alone with her for about a half hour, and he emerged from her sickbed and gave me such great reassurance that she was truly born again.

44:34

In fact, I can remember him saying to me, I don't know what you're worried about. Your mother's born again. She's going to heaven. But he told me, if I'm not mistaken, if my memory serves me right,

44:45

Peter Jeffrey told me that at Sanfields, I don't know if they did this when Dr. Jones was there, but he said that at Sanfields, at least when

44:53

Peter Jeffrey was pastoring, they permitted both believer baptism by immersion or pouring or infant baptism.

45:00

Do you know that to be the case? Is my memory serving me? It was open to both modes of baptism, infant baptism and believer's baptism, and they did install a tank for immersion.

45:20

Dr. Lloyd -Jones said, reading John Murray on Christian baptism, that persuaded him that the mode was pouring.

45:28

He wasn't persuaded that it was the children of believers who should be baptized, but he never made a lot of that.

45:38

He never spoke conviction for the church.

45:43

Now, I'm just curious, when you were talking before about his decision, Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones' decision not to pursue a career in medicine, where he was trained, for which he was trained, but to pursue the pastoral ministry, do you know how his parents and his wife perhaps may have reacted to that?

46:06

Because I can't help but remember learning about Martin Luther's own father becoming furious when

46:14

Martin Luther gave up a future in law to become a priest when he was still a

46:20

Roman Catholic. And I don't know if—I can imagine many—I can even imagine many very strong Christians wondering if their child was making the right—

46:31

Quite so. —by becoming a pastor rather than pursuing medicine, where they had been trained.

46:37

I thought it did create perplexity. It created perplexity for his parents, but particularly for his wife.

46:48

She said to him—of course, she trained as a doctor, too, and her father was a doctor, and there was great status to that vocation.

47:01

But she said to him, But you've never preached.

47:07

Yes, I have, he said. I've preached to myself. And that was very interesting, wasn't it, that he did that.

47:16

And so, of course, she wasn't converted at that time. She was converted under his ministry.

47:24

She was one of the first roots of his preaching in Sandfields when they were married and went to 28

47:31

Victoria Street there in that little house. Yes, that was the amazing thing.

47:39

I remember Derek Thomas telling me when he told his father, a farmer, that he wasn't pursuing the mathematics course to teach mathematics, that he was learning at Aberystwyth University, but that he was going to become a preacher.

47:57

And his father said to him, What a waste. And there are these responses, aren't there, for an unbelieving world, that the future is a future without church and without God.

48:11

And there we are. The Lord kept him and wonderfully used him for all these years.

48:22

And he swam against the stream of pietistic evangelicalism.

48:32

He stood for unpopular truths that were neglected. He read Warfield. He read

48:37

Jonathan Edwards. He learned from them. He exposed the folly of evangelistic methodology that was being employed.

48:47

And he felt that the gospel was being muted and diluted.

48:58

And he prodded people to think. He challenged them. And, of course, he challenged us Calvinists, too.

49:04

Do you think that believing the confession of faith is the complete answer?

49:11

Do you think the five points are all that you need now? What of a godly walk with God?

49:20

What of prayer? What of the presence and ministry of the Holy Spirit in your life?

49:29

He was very probing. When he began in London in the 50s, then the

49:39

Banner of Truth publications started to come out. And we were reading them and buying them.

49:47

It was a new world that was being opened to us. And people across the country were getting concerned.

49:53

And he was getting a letter a month from one or another saying, What's happening to all the young men?

50:01

They're all becoming hyper -Calvinists. So, that note that I remember so well came into ministers' conferences and into his preaching, warning us that Christianity was much bigger.

50:19

And evangelism was much bigger than just reversing the five points.

50:29

By his life, he showed such delight in gospel preaching.

50:39

Oh, that was the joy about it.

50:49

His preaching was so experiential and experimental. He preached to the mind, firstly.

50:57

And then he preached to the conscience, to get the conscience on your side. And then he went to the affections to show you how lovable Jesus Christ was.

51:10

And all these to bring pressure to bear on the will to make a decision.

51:15

He just didn't preach to the will preeminently to decide, but to give stuff to your mind to think of.

51:27

And your conscience to tell you that you were in need of salvation. And his preaching was aimed at bringing divine realities to the congregation, to individual personal response to holy living.

51:46

His preaching was doxological and praiseworthy and instructive.

51:57

It was food. There were no frivolous illustrations. He spoke to the congregation with great animation.

52:07

He bounced around that big round pulpit in Westminster Chapel. He addressed the needs of the 1 ,400 people or so that were there.

52:20

London in a great city is a great sin. And they came and he answered their questions.

52:27

He was immensely interesting. It was entertaining. And, of course, people used that against him.

52:37

I was speaking to a man who was a vet in London from Wales. And I said to him,

52:43

Oh, do you go to Westminster Chapel? Have you been to hear Dr.

52:48

Lloyd -Johnson? He looked at his beautiful young wife and they smiled at one another.

52:54

And he turned to me and he said, That man could make you believe black was white.

53:00

I saw what had happened, you see. Chris, I saw it. That they had gone along and the doctor had opened up his great theme of man.

53:09

Man's guilt, man's impotence and helplessness, man's need of a savior.

53:17

And they had seen the consequences for this lovely life they had amongst

53:25

Londoners and the parties and the concerts and everything that they enjoyed so much.

53:35

And they could see what a change in values it was going to be for them and the cost it would be for them to take up their cross and follow

53:45

Jesus Christ. And they silently left Westminster Chapel that night and they walked up Buckingham Gate together in silence for a hundred yards.

53:57

And then he turned to her and he said, That man could make you believe black was white. And the spell was broken, of course.

54:04

And they smiled at one another. It was oratory. It was a rhetorician who was speaking and they were persuaded by that.

54:12

That's the impact. That's why they felt they needed salvation and they shrugged it off and went on and kept on the broad way, didn't they?

54:23

Kept on that way to destruction. And, you see, we can't win with the world.

54:31

The world will say if we have a heavy sermon, as we often do and preach rather laboriously, the world will say it was heavy.

54:45

Or then if we have the wind of the Spirit in our sails and we preach with a heavenly unction, then the world will say oratory.

54:56

That's all it was. It was man's eloquence. That's all it was.

55:02

And so he came under an attack from both those angles.

55:11

But, oh, what he had to offer, what he had to say. We have to go to our midway break right now.

55:19

I hate to interrupt you, but we have to have these commercials to keep our show on the air. Yes, sir.

55:24

And I really hate to interrupt you because I'm just utterly fascinated by every word you're saying. But this is our longer -than -normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle because they air their own commercials and public service announcements to localize

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Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Florida. So please be patient with us as we take this longer -than -normal break and use this time to write down questions for Jeff Thomas about Martin Lloyd -Jones, or you could ask him any other theological question if you'd like, and also use this time to write down the information provided by our advertisers because that will enable you to more frequently and successfully patronize our advertisers, which means they are more likely going to remain our advertisers, which means we are more likely going to remain on the air.

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So remember, write down the information provided by our advertisers and also write down questions for Jeff Thomas.

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And I thank all of you who are waiting for your questions to be asked for your patience, and we will get to as many of you as we can with your questions asked and answered by Jeff Thomas.

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Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I would like to introduce you to my good friends

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That's CVBBS .com. Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Hi, I'm Stephen Mimway, Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

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01:06:06

Welcome back. This is Chris Zarnes, and if you just tuned us in, our guest for the full program today is

01:06:12

Reverend Jeff Thomas. We are talking about the life and ministry of Dr. D. Martin Lloyd -Jones.

01:06:18

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Jeff Thomas, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:06:26

Before I return to the discussion, we just have some very important announcements to make regarding upcoming events that we hope that you can attend and take advantage of.

01:06:37

First of all, this weekend I will be manning an Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitors booth in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, at Proclamation Presbyterian Church for the

01:06:49

Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology. And the theme this year is

01:06:55

Redemption Accomplished and Applied, which is also a phenomenal book on the

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Atonement by John Murray. But if you would like to attend this event,

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I will be there, and I hope that you look for me at the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio exhibitors booth. It's being held this weekend,

01:07:13

Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, April 26th, 27th, and 28th. And as I said, it's at the

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Proclamation Presbyterian Church, Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania. The speakers include D .A. Carson, Kevin DeYoung, Liam Golliger, David Murray, and Ian Hamilton, and Joe Thorne.

01:07:32

If you would like to register, go to AllianceNet .org, AllianceNet .org, click on Events, and then scroll down to Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology, Redemption Accomplished and Applied.

01:07:43

That's April 26th through the 28th in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania. And then, after that, well actually at the same time, for those of you who live in Michigan, tomorrow an event begins in Hudsonville, Michigan, called

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Dort 400, Safeguarding the Reformed Tradition. And that is a conference being conducted by the

01:08:08

Protestant Reformed Theological Seminary, and it's being held at Trinity Protestant Reformed Church in Hudsonville, Michigan.

01:08:16

And the speakers at this conference include men such as Professor Ronald Kaminga, Professor Barrett Gritters, Reverend Brian Huizenga, Professor Doug Kuyper, Reverend Bill Langerak, Reverend Mark Shand, and Reverend Angus Stewart.

01:08:37

The conference is being held, as I said, from April 25th through the 27th. That's tomorrow and Friday and Saturday.

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And if you would like to register for this conference, which is absolutely free of charge, go to Dort400 .org.

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Don't forget there's two D's in Dort. That's D as in David, O -R, D as in David, T, 400 .org,

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Dort400 .org. And I hope that if you live in the Michigan area that you will attend this event.

01:09:07

Then coming up in May, on Thursday, May 23rd, I am going to be hosting my next

01:09:13

Iron Sharpens Iron radio pastor's luncheon featuring Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

01:09:21

He is going to be speaking on how the Dead Sea Scrolls vindicate the Holy Scriptures.

01:09:27

That's Thursday, May 23rd, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at the Carlisle Fire and Rescue Banquet Hall in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

01:09:33

This is absolutely free of charge to all men in ministry leadership, whether you are a pastor or an elder, and I believe those are the same office, by the way, a deacon, a parachurch leader, or whatever other ministry leadership position you have, you are welcome, absolutely free of charge.

01:09:48

Send me an email if you'd like to come. It's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:09:54

And then right from there, after the luncheon is over,

01:10:00

I'm heading to New York for several speaking engagements that Dr. Costa is going to be involved in, and you can email me for that itinerary if you'd like to attend all of these or some of these speaking engagements on Long Island, New York.

01:10:15

And then, immediately after leaving Long Island, I'm heading right back to Pennsylvania for another event, and this is the

01:10:22

East Coast Ministers' Conference of the Banner of Truth, May 28th through the 30th.

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That's Tuesday, May 28th through Thursday, May 30th at the

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Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania. And the speakers include Jeff Kingswood, Terry Johnson, David Vaughn, Steve Nichols, Michael Morales, and Chad Vegas.

01:10:43

If you would like to register, if you are a man in ministry leadership, you are eligible to attend this event.

01:10:50

Go to banneroftruth .org, banneroftruth .org, click on Events, and then scroll down to East Coast Ministers' Conference.

01:10:56

I will be there, God willing, so please look for me. Ask around and say, where's Chris Arnes? Hopefully, eventually, you'll find me.

01:11:03

I would love to meet as many of my Iron Trippers, Iron Radio listeners as possible at this event. Then, the aforementioned event, where my guest,

01:11:11

Jeff Thomas, is among a number of speakers. This is the Foundations Conference, a conference of sermonaudio .com.

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This is being held in New York City on December 19th and 20th, and the speakers include

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Dr. Stephen J. Lawson, Paul Washer, the aforementioned

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Rev. Jeff Thomas, Rev. Armin Tomasian, Richard Caldwell Jr., and Andrew Quigley.

01:11:35

The theme of the Foundations Conference this December is Prayer and Preaching, the

01:11:41

Foundations of Ministry. The venue only holds a little less than 200 people, so if you have any intention of registering, please do it quickly, because they may fill up very quickly.

01:11:52

Thefoundationsconference .com is the website. Thefoundationsconference .com Then, in January, I am heading back to Atlanta, Georgia for the

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G3 Conference. The G3 Conference is an extraordinary conference in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta, and this is,

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I think, one of my highlights of my year is attending this. I'm also going to be manning an

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Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio exhibitors booth. Speakers include Kosti Hinn, believe it or not, the nephew of the notorious charlatan

01:12:28

Benny Hinn. Kosti Hinn has renounced his Word of Faith background. He's a

01:12:34

Reformed Baptist and a Cessationist. He will be speaking at this conference. David Miller is going to be there.

01:12:41

What a powerful preacher he is. Rev. Jeff Thomas, I'm sure that's my guest today,

01:12:49

Jeff Thomas is thrilled that Derek Thomas is going to be preaching at this conference.

01:12:55

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, Joel Beeky, Paul Washer, Stephen J. Lawson, again, he's going to be at this conference.

01:13:03

Tom Askell and Vody Baucom. If you'd like to attend the G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com

01:13:10

g3conference .com This is going to be held in January.

01:13:15

The exact dates are Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th.

01:13:22

That's Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th at the Georgia International Convention Center College Park, Georgia.

01:13:29

Go to g3conference .com g3conference .com Last but not least, if you love

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If you do not have a church home where you are a member and you're not prayerfully looking for one, you're living in rebellion against God, you need to rectify that situation.

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I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world and I can help you find a church.

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Even if you're going on vacation and you need to find a good church wherever you're heading, just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. And if you want to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe in Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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01:15:21

We are now back with our guest today, Reverend Jeff Thomas. Are you still there,

01:15:26

Reverend Thomas? I certainly am. We have an echo going on in the background.

01:15:31

I can hear my own voice. Nuisance. I don't know if you could turn down your computer or whatever it is that's playing me back there.

01:15:42

Do you know if there's a computer on there that's playing me back? There's nothing on.

01:15:51

Huh. Okay. We're going to have to just deal with it. I'm not sure why that's happening.

01:15:57

We have a listener in Avon Lake, Ohio. Andrew. And Avon Lake reminds me of my childhood home,

01:16:10

Avon Lake in Amityville, Long Island, but this is a different Avon Lake. This is Avon Lake, Ohio. And Andrew has several questions.

01:16:20

Is it true that Dr. Jones nailed the pulpit to the platform at Westminster Chapel? Never heard of that.

01:16:29

Okay. His second question is, other than his book on the

01:16:34

Sermon on the Mount, what are some important books Dr. Jones has written? Well, his sermons on Ephesians and his sermons on Romans are standard.

01:16:50

I would think those would be the basic sermons to read and learn from.

01:17:01

And his book Spiritual Depression is quite a powerful book. Yes, that's right. That's been a help to many people as well.

01:17:10

His preaching was vital and a sheer thrill and wonder in his treatment of the great

01:17:19

Pauline texts, Ephesians and Romans. We find him saying so often, in many senses, there are no more important verses than the whole range and realm of Scripture than these two verses and so on.

01:17:33

Surely there's no more wonderful, no more striking statement of the truth concerning the Christian than this.

01:17:40

That shows that he was gripped by the Word of God. Our lack of power in preaching may be directly related to the fact that many ministers don't really believe, don't really grasp, don't really appreciate as he did that the

01:17:59

Gospel is the power of God. It's because all his preaching was controlled by the content of the

01:18:06

Gospel that this was so. It was focused on reconciliation through the death of Christ and then renewal and the rebirth by the gift of Christ's Spirit.

01:18:22

It was wonderful and powerful. We must really grasp the

01:18:29

Gospel and love the Gospel, be gripped by the beauty and glory of the

01:18:34

Gospel if we would know anything of the power in preaching that Dr. Lloyd -Jones knew.

01:18:41

You reading studies in the Sermon on the Mount and Ephesians and Romans and 2

01:18:48

Peter and the man of truth just brought out a new paperback of 12 sermons of his from Jeremiah.

01:18:57

Just all of it is so helpful. We preach not ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

01:19:08

That was Lloyd -Jones' beauty. And we have,

01:19:16

Andrew has one more question. Given that Lloyd -Jones did not attend seminary, do you know how he prepared himself for ministry?

01:19:24

Well, of course, he had a very sharp mind. He was a top medical student.

01:19:31

He studied and studied, and that is enormously important for anyone who would be useful by the

01:19:40

Lord that you are presenting your body, a living sacrifice to God and you are not being conformed to this world, but you are being transformed by the renewing of your mind.

01:19:55

You're bringing your thoughts into captivity to Jesus Christ and you're saying, take my intellect and use every power as thou wouldst choose.

01:20:06

And so he then studied and read.

01:20:12

He read the great thinkers of the 20th century.

01:20:19

He became familiar with the philosophers from the

01:20:24

German school right up until today and so he knew what the objections to Christianity that his steelworkers and coal miners were meeting on the coal face or in front of the furnaces when they ate together and they would argue and debate.

01:20:47

And he gave them then knowledge from all his reading and especially, of course, his knowledge of the

01:20:56

Bible. But that's what made him the man of God so helpful with lasting truths so relevant for the church in 2019.

01:21:08

We have a mutual friend of yours and mine, Pastor Thomas or Reverend Thomas and Aberystwyth Wales, Mike who sat under your preaching and I believe he may still be going to that church

01:21:25

Alfred Street Baptist Church but Mike in Aberystwyth Wales says, what aspects of preaching does he think are missing today?

01:21:36

Personally, I think there's a lack of in -depth preaching on the cross other than almost passing references to Christ dying.

01:21:46

Yeah, yeah. I think there's a real absence of gospel preaching which meets with man in his tremendous need and points to the finished work of Christ as the answer to that need.

01:22:13

I think his emphasis on revival also is very important.

01:22:22

You know, think of the characteristics of revival now.

01:22:27

Firstly, there'd be the felt presence of God in our meetings. We don't have that very often.

01:22:34

Times when God's Spirit descends on a meeting and everyone knows God is there and the unseen world becomes terribly and wonderfully close and preaching is transformed and the preacher speaks with a boldness and an authority that's obviously supernatural and hearers forget the preacher and they hear only the voice of God speak into their hearts and familiar truths become real as they're preached and those who listen tremble at the thought of God.

01:23:03

They're shaped with fear. They're made aware of their sins. They're overwhelmed with wonder as they hear about the cross of the

01:23:10

Lord Jesus and filled with joy they can't put into words. The singing is transformed.

01:23:16

People sing as never before. They realize how wonderful the words are that they're singing and conscious that God is listening and praying is transformed and people pray with confidence and earnestness and a wrestling spirit

01:23:30

I won't let you go unless you bless me and you know we've had tastes of that, haven't we?

01:23:36

The best meetings we've been to. I want all meetings to be like that.

01:23:42

I want to know that God is among his people when they meet. That would be the felt presence and then many people converted.

01:23:52

Real conversions. Powerful, unmistakable conversions. I long to see people terrified at the thought of the wrong they've done to God.

01:24:01

What must I do to be saved? Seeing them drawn to Christ and thrilled with him and overwhelmed by his willingness to save sinners and breaking with their old life completely and turning their back on the world and giving themselves inconsistent obedience to Christ.

01:24:19

I want to see this happening. One of the great proofs that the gospel is true is the fact that it's power to reach the hearts of every sort of sinner.

01:24:28

I want to see young children saved and elderly folk in their homes and to see bright young students saved.

01:24:36

Tramps and beggars. I want to see God's saving power working amongst wealthy businessmen and asylum seekers and delinquent youngsters on street corners.

01:24:50

Not just university types. I want bricklayers and window cleaners and plumbers and the unemployed.

01:24:59

That's what happens when God works and when God blesses.

01:25:05

I want to see every member of the church filled with the Holy Spirit. That's another mark.

01:25:10

I'm not talking now about a great crisis, but I'm saying every one of us ought to be brimful of the life of God every moment.

01:25:20

If we were filled with the Spirit, we'd have a great sense of the love of God to us.

01:25:26

We'd be able to say God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit whom he's given us.

01:25:32

We'd love the Savior with a warm and steady love. We'd long for the day when he comes again.

01:25:39

If we were filled with the Spirit, we'd love one another more warmly and more affectionately and more practically than we do.

01:25:47

We'd pray for one another more consistently. We'd commit ourselves to the life of the church more thoroughly.

01:25:55

We'd be eager to be with our fellow believers. We'd do everything in our power to be at the meetings.

01:26:02

We'd look forward to being at the Lord's Supper and feeding on Christ. We'd be filled with the

01:26:07

Spirit and we wouldn't be doing anything dubious. We'd turn away from our filthy entertainments and destructions.

01:26:18

Those are the great marks of a revived church. And when he was calling for a revival, he wasn't just nostalgic about what happened 200 years ago.

01:26:30

But he was filled with the practical necessity of the church being the body of Christ, the fellowship of the

01:26:39

Holy Spirit today. That's what is missing. That's what's missing.

01:26:44

Praise God. Thank you so much for that necessary word. And by the way, Mike, out in Aberystwyth, Wales, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for being such a blessing to me personally after I lost my precious wife.

01:26:59

Both Mike and I were brothers who are widowers, just as you were,

01:27:06

Reverend Thomas. And Mike has continued to pray for me when

01:27:12

I have bouts of deep grief that still remain. And I know that he knows from where he speaks, having experienced the loss of a precious wife.

01:27:22

So thank you very much, Mike. I will never forget you for your warmth, for your faithful prayer and encouragement and comfort and brotherhood.

01:27:31

And Mike, like me, has found himself a lovely wife. Praise God for both of you.

01:27:39

Well, God bless you, Mike. Keep listening to Iron Trip and Zion Radio and keep spreading the word in Aberystwyth, Wales and beyond.

01:27:46

Let's see. We have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina. Let's see.

01:27:54

Chris, my brother, another great show. Dr. Thomas, with Dr. Lloyd -Jones being a

01:28:00

Calvinist Methodist, who were his Christian influences? You said

01:28:06

J .C. Ryle was one of yours. Did he have an influence on the doctor also?

01:28:13

Well, when he was 14, it was the bicentenary of the birth of some of the great leaders, of the founders of the

01:28:21

Calvinist Methodist movement, people like Daniel Rowland and Howell Harris and William Williams Ponder Kellen.

01:28:29

And the annual assembly, the session, was held in Llangaitho, in the village where he was a little boy.

01:28:39

And he went along and he heard these moving stories of God raising up men, who transformed the character of Wales morally and family life and in education and made then the reality of God supreme in rediscovering then joy in the

01:29:06

Holy Spirit. It made it a happier land. And so those stories then of the

01:29:13

Calvinistic Methodist fathers of Wales, of those men, that was a wonderful discovery for him.

01:29:22

And the two volumes, which until 10 years ago were only available in Welsh, 1 ,200 pages.

01:29:31

And a friend of mine, John Aaron, has translated them now, the two volumes, with the biographies of about a dozen men.

01:29:44

And those two volumes have been published by the

01:29:49

Banner of Truth. And Lloyd -Jones would, on a Sunday night when he got back home, would love to read those volumes and the incidents, the vignettes of sanctification and new experiences of conversion and blessing that almost every page contains.

01:30:14

So those books, I think, more than any other. Whereas there were numbers of men who have become

01:30:23

Roman Catholics, even in the royal family, and writers and politicians,

01:30:31

Graham Green, Tony Blair, Duchess of Kent, they went to Rome because they were dissatisfied with the pusillanimous weakness of Anglican and non -conformity liberal humanism, and they wanted the supernatural, and they went there.

01:30:59

Lloyd -Jones didn't do that. Lloyd -Jones then went to the Bible, and he went to the men who, in the 18th century, were powerfully used by God and learned from them and became the preacher he was because of their influences.

01:31:19

So I do commend them to you to read. Amen. We have

01:31:24

Joe in a Thigh, County Kildare, Ireland, who says,

01:31:30

Thank you for your continued labors with Iron Trip and Siren Radio. There is a phrase associated with Dr.

01:31:35

Martin Lloyd -Jones, Logic on Fire. Could your guest elaborate on what it meant in the ministry of the man?

01:31:41

We touched on this earlier because of the DVD series, but perhaps you could elaborate on that?

01:31:48

Well, he mustn't be thought of just as some emotional shouter.

01:31:56

That was the last thing he was. He was a scientist, wasn't he? He was a heart specialist, and he was a man who moved amongst academics for the first 24 years of his life, and he came from a

01:32:21

Welsh tradition which esteemed the intellect and logic.

01:32:28

You know, the reason why we are Christians, there's only one reason why everyone listening to this program should become a

01:32:37

Christian, is that it is true. And there's no better reason for you, any of you, to become

01:32:46

Christians than that. On the third day, the tomb was empty, and Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

01:32:56

And on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was poured out, and men who before that were fearful and sheepish became alive and filled with joy, and the

01:33:11

Holy Spirit took that message and transformed the whole bowl of the

01:33:17

Mediterranean by their ministry and life, and they did it. If you read

01:33:23

Acts 2, which is an account of Peter at Pentecost, a very logical development of the

01:33:35

Bible and theology, and then the application to daily living.

01:33:40

What must we do, then? Well, we must repent and believe the Gospel, and that structure of the apologia, the defense of the faith, the declaration of the faith.

01:33:58

Luther at the Synod, speaking there and saying, here

01:34:07

I am, I can do no other. If I can be shown from the

01:34:14

Bible or from just common sense that any of these things are illogical, well, tell me!

01:34:21

Otherwise then I shall preach Jesus Christ and justification by faith in Him.

01:34:30

And the doctor did that, he doctor did that with the

01:34:35

Spirit from Heaven, with the fires of the

01:34:40

Holy Spirit burning in his heart as he preached them. That's what the phrase logic on fire, it's theology ablaze and accessible, declared by a man of God, full of the

01:34:56

Holy Spirit, to a congregation receptive and longing for more. Amen.

01:35:03

And Joe in Thigh, Ireland go to banneroftruth .org if you have not already acquired the

01:35:11

DVD of Logic on Fire about the life and legacy of Martin Lloyd Jones, you can get it there

01:35:18

I'm assuming that it would be less expensive for me to get it to the branch of Banner of Truth where the main headquarters is actually in Scotland, but go to banneroftruth .org

01:35:29

and you'll find all the information that you need. And we are going to our final break right now, this is a brief, more brief break than the last one.

01:35:37

If you would like to join us on the air send in your email now because we're running out of time. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

01:35:43

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, don't go away we'll be right back with Jeff Thomas in our conclusion of our discussion on Dr.

01:35:51

Martin Lloyd Jones. I'm Pastor Billy Linhart of Sovereign Grace Particular Baptist Church of San Angelo, Texas, and I'm thrilled to have joined the

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01:46:40

Thank you. Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, and this is our final segment of our interview today with Reverend Jeff Thomas.

01:46:46

Time flew by too quickly for me. I love every second of interviewing this brother, and I look forward to his return.

01:46:52

We are talking about Dr. D. Martin Lloyd -Jones. If you'd like a question asked on the air and answered by our guest,

01:47:00

Jeff Thomas, please email it immediately because we're running out of time. chrisarnzen at gmail dot com is the email address.

01:47:07

We have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who said, I had heard that the ecumenism of J .I.

01:47:15

Packer and John Stott seriously damaged his friendship with Dr. D. Martin Lloyd -Jones.

01:47:21

Is this true? Yes, it is true. Packer's association with the

01:47:30

Roman Catholics was motivated by his desire to bring a supernatural attitude to Christianity, which

01:47:43

Rome and evangelicals share, to bring moral resistance to the tide of immorality that's sweeping the

01:47:59

Western world, and that they might be able to work together and do things together, and so both in Britain, in a book growing into Union, and then in America in association with the

01:48:17

Roman Catholics there, Packer cooperated with them. That brought great distress, not just to Lloyd -Jones in England, but to R .C.

01:48:28

Sproul and the men there in America who valued so highly

01:48:37

Packer's writings, Fundamentalism and the Wood of God, Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God, Knowing God, Among God's Giants, great books, the

01:48:48

Introduction to the Death of Death, you know, things that were lost, and we were so sorry about that, because the whole grief is that in the application of Christ's redemption to us,

01:49:06

Rome puts itself, its priests, its ceremonies, its ministers, its oil, its bread, its wafers, that is the way that grace comes to the sinner, whereas in Scripture we see the

01:49:25

Holy Spirit as the one who does this, the crucial importance of the ministry of the

01:49:32

Spirit of Jesus Christ, applying the redemption of Jesus Christ to people, and so it was a very serious error, and I don't feel that there is a moral tide flowing through a nation which does not have as its inspiration and motivation a vital relationship with the

01:50:01

God of the Bible, and that is the longing that the

01:50:08

Word of God shouldn't come in wood only, but power and the Holy Ghost and with much assurance, and that is not a characteristic of the

01:50:15

Roman Church, and I feel that there was a great weakness in Packer in introducing that cooperation and it caused some division, and yeah.

01:50:35

Did their friendship ever recover at all? Well, Packer's written wonderfully, wisely, and helpfully about his debt to Dr.

01:50:48

Lloyd -Jones, and shows a very charitable spirit, and John Stott spoke so warmly of him in his life, but still, there wasn't a withdrawing from that relationship with Rome, or John Stott's relationship then with ecumenists, with a fellow

01:51:20

Anglican liberal with whom they wrote a book together, and Stott refers to him as my brother all the way through the book, and denies the virgin birth, resurrection, and heaven and hell, the blood of the cross as the only ground of redemption.

01:51:45

Oh dear. So sad. Yes, very sad.

01:51:50

We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who asks,

01:51:56

I know this question typically comes up whenever Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones is being addressed, but could you give us some enlightenment on what his views really were in regard to a second blessing?

01:52:10

Yes, that is, well, that is the question that most often is asked about him and his stress on the need that the...

01:52:26

I think if he had used the word baptisms of the Holy Spirit, if he had used the plural instead of the singular, that a man must have the baptism of the

01:52:37

Holy Spirit, all of us recognize that there are times throughout this history of the church where Athanasius or Luther or Bunyan or the

01:52:48

Wesleys and Whitfield and Spurgeon and Lloyd -Jones himself, when he preached and everything was different, and there was a consciousness of the presence of God in the way that I've described it.

01:53:01

The Spirit of God baptized that man as he preached that message and Lloyd -Jones' longing for that, the closeness of an encounter with God through the word.

01:53:21

Something happening in the church itself, in the services itself, something happens.

01:53:29

God becomes very near. People are saved. Christians are given great assurance that God loves them and that he is their

01:53:38

Lord and Savior. And that is what he is talking about. And he is saying, don't think that by correct exegesis and by a good history of redemption insight that this is going to be sufficient to energize and motivate and transform and save in a congregation.

01:54:05

You must have the Holy Spirit being there and working there.

01:54:12

You know, Joseph Hart says it, a form of words, though air so sound, can never save a soul.

01:54:18

The Holy Ghost must give the wound and make the wounded whole. And really that's what

01:54:23

Lloyd -Jones is saying. I wouldn't have used all the words that he would have used to describe it, but he wasn't talking about tongue speaking as an evidence of the baptism of the

01:54:41

Holy Spirit. He wasn't a Pentecostalist like that at all. But he was saying, don't be satisfied with yesterday's experience or yesterday's knowledge.

01:54:52

It's a day late for today. You need today the Holy Spirit to help you in your ministry.

01:54:58

If you are to have an effective saving ministry, cry mightily to the

01:55:05

Holy Spirit to be with you and help you. We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who asks, what do you think

01:55:13

Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones would be most displeased with in regard to his fellow

01:55:18

Calvinists in the 21st century if he were alive today? He was a great encourager and very broad in the men he went to work for and to preach for.

01:55:38

There were things that he was unhappy with.

01:55:44

He was unhappy with limitations on declaring the love of God in Jesus Christ in preaching to draw men with the willingness of God to receive and believe, those who believe.

01:56:06

I think he would want more gospel, more proclamation, more beseeching and entreaty and pleading with men and women to come and put their trust in Jesus Christ.

01:56:30

The old, old story that those who know it best are hungering and thirsting to hear it like the rest.

01:56:37

We have nowadays exposition. That is the theme again and again.

01:56:44

Teaching the Bible, big chunks of the Bible, going through it. It's not enough.

01:56:51

The doctor would be urging us to preach Jesus Christ and to warmly welcome and invite sinners to an inviting savior.

01:57:05

Amen. Well, if you could, in about a minute's time, summarize what you most want etched on the hearts and minds of our listeners today regarding this great hero of the faith,

01:57:15

Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones. Right. Well, I love his accessibility, his humility, his openness to our questions, our concerns, his faithfulness in remaining in that church and preaching the

01:57:48

Word of God and that he had no confidence in gimmicks.

01:57:58

What the apostles used to turn the world upside down, a godly life, the preaching of the

01:58:07

Word and prayer. And those were the means that he used that God honored so much.

01:58:19

The power of the Word of God is alive and powerful and sharper than any two -edged sword.

01:58:25

The power of prayer, the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man, avails much.

01:58:32

And the power of faith, Hebrews 11, they subdued kingdoms and worked righteousness and obtained promises through faith.

01:58:45

And the doctor would say, never neglect the power of the Word or prayer or faith.

01:58:51

Amen. Well, remember, prayer and preaching is the theme of the Foundations Conference coming up in December where our guest

01:59:00

Jeff Thomas will be speaking among other men. If you would like more information, go to thefoundationsconference .com

01:59:08

thefoundationsconference .com Don't forget you can discover the writings of our guest Jeff Thomas at banneroftruth .org

01:59:17

I want to thank you so much Reverend Thomas for being on our show today. I look forward to many future returns,

01:59:24

God willing. I just savor every second of our interviews. It's been my privilege and pleasure.

01:59:32

Indeed, Chris. Thank you for inviting me. Well, if you could remain on the phone until we go off the air because I want to give you a proper goodbye off the air.

01:59:40

Okay. And I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater