October 7, 2020 Show with Roger Salter on “George Whitefield: We Must Be Taken Out of Ourselves”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of the humanity living on the planet

Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 7th day of October 2020, and I am so thrilled once again to have one of my favorite returning guests of all time, my dear friend

Roger Salter, who is rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, and today we are going to be addressing

George Whitefield, We Must Be Taken Out of Ourselves.

Once again, that's George Whitefield, We Must Be Taken Out of Ourselves, and just a bit of interesting information,

George Whitefield just went home to be with the Lord on September 30th, obviously not of this year, he went home to be with the

Lord on September 30th in 1770, but it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Roger Salter.

Good afternoon, Chris, it's a real privilege to be with you again. And once again, for the sake of our listeners, if you could tell us briefly a summary of St.

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama. We are a small congregation of faith, and we actually share our facility with a group of Reformed Baptists, and we are a

Reformed Anglican Church by conviction, which means that we adhere to the 39

Articles of the Anglican Reformation. We follow the guidelines of Thomas Cranmer and his whole body of colleagues who were the

Reformers of the Ecclesia Anglicana Church in England back in the 16th century, so that is our basis, and we trust that everything we derive from Scripture is consistent with Scripture and our

Constitution. Praise God. And if anybody wants to learn more about St.

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, you could go to stm, for St.

Matthew's, anglican .weebly .com.

That's stmanglican .weebly .com, and you can also go to rogersalter .com,

and salter is spelled S -A -L -T -E -R, there's no P in his last name, as you would find in that glorious God -breathed hymn book from the

Old Testament known as the Psalter. And we have a fascinating discussion today,

I'm sure, about one of my favorite heroes of the Christian faith, George Whitefield.

It's kind of interesting that the first thought in my head when

I conjure up an image of George Whitefield is not Anglican, because of the fact that he was a fiery street preacher, an outdoor, open -air evangelist.

You don't normally associate that with Anglican ministers and rectors and evangelists.

And in fact, were not the local

Anglicans, especially those in the clergy and perhaps hierarchy, so upset by Whitefield that they tried to disrupt his outdoor services?

I had even heard a story, and perhaps you can confirm whether or not it is truth or myth, but I heard that a herd of cattle was set free to parade or charge through the area where Whitefield was preaching in order to disrupt his service, and that was actually orchestrated by some in the

Anglican church. Is that actually a factual event from history? Well, I believe so.

I don't know about every incident, but there certainly was a lot of organized disruption.

In England, he was denied access to the pulpits in most churches that were

Anglican, likewise in the Episcopal church here in America. He was actually the first of the great awakeners of the 18th century to preach in the open air.

He even preceded Wesley. Wesley was very cautious about that, but Whitefield urged him to do so.

So, yes, there was a lot of disruption. One of the famous occasions was when he was preaching in London, South London, on a large common, and the military would come out and beat their drums as hard as they could to drown his speech.

But I think it was Benjamin Franklin said he skirted around a gathering of several thousand people, and on the very fringe of that gathering, he could hear

Whitefield as clear as a bell because he had such power in his voice and the ability to project it.

Well, you have come up with an interesting theme for this discussion.

George Whitefield, we must be taken out of ourselves. Can you please explain that subtitle?

Yes, certainly. I'll try, Chris. I have to say, I haven't read Whitefield closely for a couple of years now.

He's always on my reading list. I read everything I could about him initially some time ago and then reread.

But lately, I've been reading other books. But when we consider what, you know, the interview ought to be about in these broadcasts, iron sharpens iron,

I always have difficulty thinking about a topic because I'm not an expert in anything. And then

I was like, well, you sure do a great job faking it, because every time you're on the show,

I find you utterly fascinating. And so do a large and growing number of my listeners in my audience.

Well, I was lying away thinking about what would be a good theme. And on Sunday, our readings were about God's hatred of pride, human pride.

And we had three lessons to consider. The Pharisees at a wedding, choosing the best places,

Proverbs talking about never try to win the favor of great men, you know, for your own advantage.

But what struck me was our epistle reading, Ephesians 4, 1 to 6, where Paul, who was a natural boaster, and his boasting was turned to sanctified purposes, but he was still a boaster, boasted in Christ.

But he issues this exhortation, be completely humble and gentle. And I suddenly thought, you know, to say such a thing,

Paul had to be a truly regenerate individual, because he was so boastful about his background and his distinctives.

And there he is saying, be completely humble. And I thought he would know that we cannot be completely humble, because pride is the mother of all our sins.

It is what plagues us continually. But it was more an expression of aspiration than actuality, that every believer wants to be as holy as God invites him to be.

We know it's a lifelong struggle and development by grace. So I thought, and I haven't found the context of this since, but I've always remembered it and pondered it, we must be taken out of ourselves.

And I thought, okay, what must we be taken out of? Not just pride in a simplistic way, out of ourselves, our very self.

What does it mean to be in ourselves? And I thought about how we regard normality as people.

And I thought about Ecclesiastes, which teaches us that really we're all living in an illusion.

He says all things are vanity, which means that our whole life from the cradle to the grave consists of a great deal of illusion that has to be cleansed away by the

Holy Spirit. And so we are deluded about life, about its purpose and aims, and especially we're deluded about self, who we are, what we are.

And there's a great sense of entitlement from the cradle, when babies are the center of the universe, and that's how they continue until God changes their outlook.

So, this great enemy that we have, which is our self, and more specifically, our pride, this is probably the polar opposite of what we often hear in modern evangelicalism.

We hear that the cause of most ills in our lives, perhaps even especially in the lives of young people, is a lack of self -esteem.

But that is really not at the root of man's greatest problems, is it?

No, it isn't. It's the major theme of self -help books and popular psychology, etc.,

etc. But it's really very dangerous. And I'm just worried, too, about how the current generation of children, if not the last couple of generations, are taught admiration of themselves, taught that they're omnicompetent, taught that they can do anything they want to do.

We all know that's a lie. We know there are so many disappointed people who have certain desires, they fail in them.

In all sorts of ways, their lives are ruined because of expectations created by doting parents and doting adults.

We're not exceptional. We are, if you look at it from an ethnological point of view, we're all afflicted with original sin, which makes us detestable in the eyes of God because of our inner corruption, and then because of our corrupt deeds and words that follow on from that infection.

But also, there's this sort of sense of entitlement among the young.

Everything must work for them. It's automatic. We must be blessed. We must be favored by God without even considering the nature of our relationship to him, or the vast distance between him and us because of his absolute holiness and our total depravity, which we don't even estimate as being a factor in coming to him.

We just think he's there for our convenience, like the genie in Aladdin's lamp. We rub the lamp in prayer, and everything should just happen magically.

So it bothers me, Chris, just self -examination and observation of human behavior.

I think what Whitfield is saying, because he wanted to be an actor.

He would have been a brilliant actor. That was recognized. What he wanted to live for was the praise of his fellows.

That was his greatest struggle, the praise he received as a great preacher. He was always, as Grimshaw would say, having to put the young kid down.

That's your share for putting the young child down, because we encourage our children to be proud and overconfident and special.

Well, they are to parents in the sense that they're their offspring, but we're not special in any way, none of us, before the

Lord. We're all lost in sin and hostility to him. So I thought, what does it mean to be taken out of our souls?

I better pause there for a moment, Chris. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Like, for instance, if we bring up a theological issue that you'd like to ask about, perhaps it's an issue where you're in agreement with my guest and you know that your pastors may vehemently disagree with this issue.

Perhaps you're a pastor and you know that your fellow elders are in disagreement with you over this issue, or your denomination, or perhaps you are vehemently in disagreement with my guest,

Roger Salter, and you just don't want to call attention to your identity.

I understand that, and I'll give you the permission to remain anonymous for personal reasons like that.

But if it's just a general question on theology, doctrine, history, please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

In fact, we do have already a question from RJ in White Plains, New York.

He asks, I don't know if I missed this or not, but did you ever give a reason as to why the

Anglican Church of Whitfield's Day were so much in opposition to him, and was this the majority or just a minority of angry or envious folks within the

Church of England who had this problem with him? There was a general disagreement from folk, clergy and people, because he preached with absolute loyalty to Scripture.

The fact of our sinfulness before God, our inability to please

God or win his approval, and one of the major themes of his preaching was the necessity of the new birth, of regeneration.

And people hated that because of that pharisaical tendency within us to want to gain credit for what we think is virtuous or good or something that pleases

God. And that is self -worship, it is usurping our dependence upon the mercy of God and his enabling.

And so really, religion was based on qualifying by ritual, by morality, by performance.

People are so addicted to that, and it's constant and it's prevalent in every generation.

People don't like to think that they're utterly helpless before God. Their only plea, they have no negotiation with him, they have no entitlement.

The only legitimate expression we permitted to God as guilty and lost and helpless sinners is,

Lord have mercy, total dependent upon his sovereign choice and prerogative to show mercy without obligation of his own free love and goodness.

And of course, when you are taught that you can no longer depend on yourself, but you have to depend on mercy,

I've seen the reaction in churches that even claim to be reformed. People would come to me and say, oh yes,

I'm reformed. They could quote Calvin and various people like that. But you say to them, yes, but do you know you are dependent on your salvation upon the sovereign choice and work of God.

And they get upset over that because they still feel there's something they can do to put them right with God.

And even if you only have 1 % contribution, it's too much and it's impossible.

And that would be the most vital 1%. God wouldn't be able to do anything until you've done your bit.

That was the medieval teaching, the pharisaical teaching, the teaching of classic Roman Catholic doctrine.

And, you know, it disarms people. They suddenly realize there's nothing in myself that I'm capable of doing.

Nothing in my hands I bring. We all sing the hymn quite happily, but we don't like it when we realize

I haven't got a single molecule or atom of goodness within me.

Like Isaiah, I'm a ruined man. Like the Anglican prayer of confession, there is no soundness within us.

There's nothing of a moral or spiritual soundness to my reputational person that brings me close to God.

As Luther says, our most damning works are what we think are the good ones that cause that little bit of that fission of pride through us.

You know, look what I've done. Well, thank you, R .J.

in White Plains, New York. And this problem of pride is not only for those that are extraordinarily gifted, not only for those that are public speakers and preachers and pastors and evangelists, it even is a curse to many of the most unknown and those of us who are more behind the scenes in life, living private, quiet lives.

The sin of pride can plague anyone. In fact, would you say that very often the problem of what is called, as I mentioned earlier, what is called a lack of self -esteem or even self -hatred, even to the point of suicidal behavior at times, isn't this really not necessarily the hatred of self, but one being far too preoccupied with oneself that they are driven to this depression because they don't believe they are getting the lot in life they deserve, or there's something that is driving them to what one might observe as self -loathing that is really a depression being spawned of self -absorption?

I think it's offended and wounded pride, Chris. I think we're not getting what we expect.

The people are not recognizing what is unique and distinctive among us. That's one issue.

The other is that in various ways, everybody's trying to find an avenue to prominence, to significance, to being marked out as having some particular talent or distinction that in a sense makes them superior or perhaps they may concede to be equal to others.

So it's the shame, the self -loathing of saying, nobody's recognizing me for what

I am, and I'm not succeeding in showing how good I am. So I turn on myself with disgust and hatred because I've let my pride down.

I haven't fulfilled it. I think just as Adam and Eve sinned through pride, and that was the basis of all sin, it was done in imitation and by the provocation of Satan, who was cast out of heaven because he was so proud.

He wanted to usurp the throne of God. That tendency is catching.

It's now part of our nature. And so we are imitating our father, the devil, who is our father until we are born from above.

And we don't recognize that in the world because we've got so many other things to distract us from our need and so many other things we turn to for salvation.

Idolatry in some form or other, or self -gratification in some form or other.

But pride is our fundamental sin. And shame often is a, you know, it's a color, a hue of pride, you know, a complexion of pride that we don't want to be called out.

We don't want to be nailed for what we are. And an added problem to this whole scenario is,

I know that you are from originally Tasmania, Australia. I know that you were educated in England, but I don't know if this is such a problem or issue in those places.

But obviously you've been here in the United States long enough, where you know that in the

United States, and of course, it also varies in intensity geographically in the

United States as well. You might have people in the South, not necessarily acting in certain ways that are dominant in the

North. And of course, the same thing could go with the differences between East Coast and West Coast.

But one problem, at least that I've noticed growing up in New York and living here in Pennsylvania in the

Northeast, and being a part of the media, especially the

Christian media, for actually most of my adult life, pride, which is clearly a sin, pride is viewed by many people, and perhaps even unconsciously by Christians, or consciously, it is viewed as actually an asset.

It is viewed as something that gives everyone around that person, or at least in the notion of the one who is proud, that they really know what they are talking about.

They really are gifted. They really are somebody to be reckoned with. They are somebody who is in charge.

They are somebody that we should look up to. They are a real leader. And of course, there is a difference between being confident, being confident that you are skilled in the gifts that God has given you, and being confident that God will see you through an action you are taking, or a cause you are involved in, or whatever.

But there is a difference between that and pride. And we, in our culture, and it is probably something that is not just a modern phenomenon, it is probably something that has been going on since the dawn of time, where people view pride as an actual asset.

And in fact, very often when a woman, a young woman especially, is being questioned or interviewed about what she looks for in a man, the kind of man that she wants to marry and so on, the word confidence immediately will be among those typically.

And very often the individual who is actually filled and overflowing with pride and vanity is what these poor, naïve, duped women are viewing as confidence and something attractive and desirable.

But going back to my original thought here, that I may have gone off on a rabbit trail, we should never be viewing pride as an asset or a good thing, and we should never be confusing it with righteous confidence.

Yes, yes. The confidence in God, which is meant to be total, but I often find when

God does give us confidence and an ability to do something, natural pride tends to take over as a consequence and take credit for it.

And this pride is so ingrained within us, Chris, and I think a lot of it is encouraged by flattery.

It's very hard to discern what is flattery, because we love praise, but it's very difficult to discern what is encouragement and what is it that boosts pride and self -esteem.

And it's a lovely kind of thing. And I don't know, I think when Christians feel it coming on, they feel a certain nausea.

I don't want to be like this. I didn't accomplish this. I couldn't have done it without the help of God.

And so sometimes he lets us fall flat on our face to teach us what we really are, or he's got a thorn prepared for our side that will, you know, puncture our pride and our inflated sense of importance.

But I think it's that me factor and that the Christian is called to a heart searching through the

Spirit of God, not by his own self -analysis, but, you know, the self naturally, because of our dependence on parents and all the praise and attention they give us, we enter into life with this assumed entitlement to special benefits and places in life and perpetual good fortune.

And when we hear of disaster or ill fortune, we're disturbed about it.

But when it hits us, we say, what have I done? Why do I deserve this? You know? And I notice when

I've been in parishes where young women are hoping for a good husband, and they always tell you, you know, we're waiting for a knight to come charging in on his white steed and sweep us up, and I feel like saying, you know, do you think you're worth that?

Well, I haven't actually said it as bluntly as that, but the assumption is that they know they're worthy.

My word, the man has to be of almost perfect quality to be the right kind of husband, you know?

And they're sometimes greatly disappointed when they find the poor fellow is the son of Adam and has faults and flaws and sins.

And how could they ever, you know, exist in the presence of this lady who's just so adorable, so desirable, so perfect.

You know, it's like the South and what's the lady, Scarlet O 'Hara. Everyone wants to be a

Scarlet O 'Hara, you know? And a red butler to come into their lives. Not at the end, of course, because it didn't work out.

It's this idea that we are very special. We are unique.

We deserve royal treatment like Meghan. And the familiar self that we sense ourselves to be, you know how we all say when we're ill and then we recover and say,

I'm myself again. That myself that we recognize as us, our familiar self, is always favoring ourself.

We're special. We have an immunity to trouble, disaster, any fortune, you know?

And on that basis, we say, well, we're not one of them. We're not one of the herd who have difficult times and struggles.

I'm me, I'm me. Do you know what I mean? It's an easy thing to talk about, but to come to a determination of who is me and just how unlovable

I am before God and before others if they really knew me. Well, we have to go to our first station break right now.

If anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, again, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these words from our sponsors with more of Roger Salter, Rector of St.

Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama. On the theme, George Whitefield, we must be taken out of ourselves.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Trump and Zion Radio and our guest today, if you just tuned us in, is

Roger Salter, rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama. We are addressing today the theme,

George Whitefield. We must be taken out of ourselves. Our email address, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. You know, there's an old saying, you've probably heard it.

The bigger they are, the harder they fall. That's typically a phrase that comes up when somebody who is small physically in stature is about to have some kind of a violent encounter with a much larger person.

But I think that there's a lot of truth in there, even though it's not a biblical citation. I think the concept is biblical in regard to the greater one's pride.

It seems that the greater ultimately the downfall will be the most that person who is being brought low either as a punishment or because of the wrath of God.

When you're talking about an unbeliever or an enemy of Christ, or if you're talking about a Christian, it's actually an act of chastisement and love that this is occurring.

But the person is often forced, the larger in stature, I'm not speaking about physically,

I'm talking about the larger in stature they presume themselves to be or that they have become in this life through prideful strategy and using everyone else as a stepping stone to get where they are and so on.

When there is a fall there, there is much more that needs to be given up and abandoned or much more that is taken away from them.

And the falls are very often scandalous and well -known because the person is well -known.

But if you could comment on what I just said and also if you could give us some daily remedies in the lives of Christians that they can prayerfully seek to utilize in their lives to either prevent this rearing its ugly head, this wickedness of pride, or to squash it when it exists.

It's a very difficult issue because we are so proud that we think when we've done something humble or acknowledge humility, we're proud of that.

And it seems that pride is almost inextinguishable within us,

Chris. We find all sorts of ways of enjoying it within ourselves, of it taking a grip upon us.

Sometimes we're not even aware of that. So I think we certainly must think of two great facts that astounded me when

I really came to terms with them were the humility of God in all his dealings with us, his serving of creation, especially of his people, the example given of that humility of God in the foot washing carried out by the

Lord Jesus, and the loneliness of Jesus from the day of his birth until his death in another man's grave, and all he went through in his striving for our salvation in his life.

No personal acquisition, no really favorable praise or acceptance.

The poor heard him because they heard that he had a lowly concern for them, the poor both in worldly terms and in spirit.

I think the only thing is to constantly bring before us that we are recipients of the lowly grace of God, absolutely powerful, full of majesty, full of wonder, but directed towards us because of God's gracious and generous heart, but also for such great cost in the death and suffering of his son.

How he gets down into the muck with us and draws us out with his own hands.

He doesn't save us by remote control, but by getting next to us and wrestling with us and uplifting us.

So I think the loneliness of Jesus, which is so apparent in the gospel narratives and accounts of his ministry,

Paul speaking about his own natural tendency. Do you have the term skite here?

In Australia, we say that a boaster is a skiter. No, braggart. Paul was a braggart.

And it's an unlovely... A braggart we have, but not the other word. Okay. Okay. Well, you know, we have this tendency to want to somehow win other people's approval and recognition.

And it's more egotistical than a natural necessity, which we all have to be accepted and well -treated by others.

That is what is due to each of us as being created in the image of God, even though that image is just about erased or annihilated.

But we think of God's purpose for us initially. But the thing is, it is, you know, it's like that fellow in Rich Dickens' novel, was it?

And he kept saying, I am humble, I am. I'm very humble. But it was really an expression of tremendous pride.

Because he was patting himself on the back for his humility. And there's a lot of false humility because it's a way of winning people around and getting their acceptance.

I just think it's ineradicable apart from the grace of God.

And I think what Whitfield, who knew his own pride, his pride before his conversion, that he wanted to be on the stage and win applause.

Then when he did get applause as a popular preacher, he was saying how deadly dangerous it was for him.

And he must counter it with the help of God. But, you know, we all, getting back to this idea, we naturally deem ourselves, deem ourselves,

I mean, exceptional and entitled to every comfort and protection in life, which is the basis of our murmuring and discontent.

And people by nature are riddled with self -importance, self -preoccupation.

It comes out worst in the successful and the highly -placed people in life.

You know, we in Australia have this tendency to call, to knock people down, which means that we pull the leg when we feel they're getting too big for their boots or they've got tickets on themselves.

We say something that is meant to puncture that arrogance. And we especially did it to the

English because the English looked down on us as having derived from convict settlements.

So we weren't really worthy of respect. Churchill had no time for Australians. Oh, really?

That's disappointing to hear. Yes. Yes. Well, you see, when you look at it, and I'm not saying this was part of his deliberate intention, but it was that he was sent to those impenetrable

Turkish defences at, I can't think of where, Italy.

It was the Irish who were despised by the English and the Australians who were just ruffians, and they died in their thousands.

We were the trash of the empire, and we were very well aware of this.

And this is why when English people come out to Australia, we call them pommies and we give them a rough time until we accept them and they level with us.

There's a sense of social pride, of social superiority, that nothing is too good for us.

And we're self -serving in attitude and action, and our self -esteem is enormous.

And we want the esteem of others as well to boost that enormous self -esteem.

There's self -reliance. We're dependent upon our own desires and devices and the all -round competence that we think we have.

It's amazing how, and one sees this totally, people sort of confess or boast a competence they don't have.

They can help you with everything. They know everything. They don't really, they're kidding themselves. And we come to assumptions about life.

You know, what is a proper life? What is the purpose of life? What is its aims and results? And these are unquestionable assumptions that we're not going through.

Whatever we might think about COVID and its dangers and its extensiveness, it is teaching us that we are very vulnerable, very fragile, and we don't organize ourselves in crises very well.

We're not omnicompetent. And it's also this assumption, and I can't quite express it,

Chris, but I'm aware of it. I'm gradually growing out of it, a little too late. But the way you encounter the world and observe it, you think that somehow it's the way it's meant to be.

You know what I mean? Everything is as it should be. It's abnormal. We're all sinners.

We're messing up. It's anarchic. It's just a muddle that we live in.

It's only by the common grace of God that we get through anything. So I think what we're saying in a comprehensive way, certainly a moral and spiritual way that is dealing with our reconciliation to God through Christ, our rebirth by the

Holy Spirit, our life of obedience and holiness before God through his sanctifying grace, all of that, you know, soteriological salvation meaning to this term.

But I think it means our whole life in person, seeing our true selves before God, self -renunciation, total dependence upon his grace.

With only three words on our lips, at least initially, Lord have mercy, what a disgrace

I am. And so many people in so many ways are trying to compensate for their imperfection, covering it up, trying to prove how good they are by glossing over their lives, having all sorts of addictions.

And I'm not just talking about substances, but things that make us feel better or give a driving force to our lives.

When what we're saying is we have no claims, no negotiation with the

Holy God, we can only cast ourselves entirely upon him. And I think it means the impossible in a sense until grace begins its work to step out of ourselves and our assumptions about everything, which

I think that's what Ecclesiastes is all about. In fact, we've got to go to our midway break right now.

And if you could pick up on Ecclesiastes when we return, if anybody wants to join us with your own question, our email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't forget, folks, this is our longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, requires a longer break in the middle of our show because they have to, according to FCC regulations, localize

Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. So they air their own public service announcements and other local things during the midway break.

While we air our own globally heard commercials. So please use this time wisely.

Please try to write down as much of the information that our advertisers provide as possible so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them so that they in turn,

God willing, will remain our advertisers for a longer period of time because they are happy with the results they're getting.

That will further ensure that we will remain on the air because we absolutely positively depend on our advertisers and the finances that come from them to exist.

So write down the information provided by the advertisers and also write down a question for Roger Salter at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

I've had the privilege of opening God's word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

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Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

Or visit Lindbrookbaptist .org. That's Lindbrookbaptist .org. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine

Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts, and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture, dissemination of scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the

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today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban, and we are always about the message of Jesus.

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Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

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That's liyfc .org. As host of Iron Trumpet Zion Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Are you a

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That's the Thriving story. We are excited to announce another new member of the

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Greetings in the matchless name of our Lord Jesus Christ. My name is Bhanu Gadi. I'm a pharmacist in New York, which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.

In Psalm 139, verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this.

I praise you because I'm fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness and the beauty in what

God has designed and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust

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When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness, which can be very serious.

Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great

God like the psalmist did? May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

Thank you. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And remember folks, we depend on the finances provided through the advertising of solid -ground -books .com

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Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio when you're making your purchase. Before we return to our guest today, who is my dear friend,

Roger Salter, Rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, who is addressing George Whitefield, we must be taken out of ourselves.

I just have a couple of important announcements to make. Well, first of all, since I do know that we have many

Anglicans and conservative Episcopalians who have joined the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience and the audience from that section of Christendom is growing and growing judging by the responses

I continually receive from people from Anglicanism and Episcopalianism, I just want to let you know that Ricky McCall is going to be my guest on Monday.

We are going to be addressing an Anglican identity and I'm not exactly sure what that all entails yet, but I'm sure

I'll find out prior to the interview at some point so I can be more detailed in my promotion of it.

He happens to be Rector of Good Shepherd Anglican Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, and I am looking forward to my discussion with Pastor Ricky McCall.

And he happens to be very much enjoying, as he told me recently, my interviews with my guest,

Roger Salter, so I hope if they haven't already, they get to meet each other at some point in the near future.

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You can also advertise with us as long as whatever it is that you are promoting is compatible with what we believe.

You don't have to believe identically with me, but you need to be promoting something that is at the very least compatible with what we believe here.

So please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line if you'd like to advertise.

We would love to help you launch an ad campaign because we certainly do need the advertising dollars as well in order to remain in existence.

Please never siphon money away from your regular giving that you're accustomed to, to your own local church where you're a member, in order to give to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Don't punish your church to bless us, in other words. Also, please don't put your family in financial jeopardy if you're really struggling to survive and make ends meet.

I don't want people rejecting or ignoring the biblical command to support your own family and also to support your own church by giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Also, folks, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, please rectify that situation immediately.

If you need help, I may be able to help you because I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world, and I've helped people in our audience already from all over the planet

Earth, including Australia, where our guest is from. I've helped people find churches in Australia.

One of them, at least, I know for a fact, has joined that church. Some other folks are looking for churches where they're going on vacation.

Some are looking for churches for family, friends, and loved ones in all parts of the world that do not have church homes yet.

And they're not aware of a church near them. Well, I may be able to help you. So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put, I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address to send in a question to our guest

Roger Salter on our theme, George Whitefield. And the subtitle of that theme is,

We Must Be Taken Out of Ourselves. chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence. If you live outside the

USA. And I believe right before we went to the midway break, Pastor Roger, I believe you were starting to relate to the book of Ecclesiastes.

Am I right on that? Yes, that's right. That's right, Chris. Well, if you could pick up where you left off.

Okay. Well, I just feel that he is talking about the vanity of life without God.

It's not a skeptical book at all. It's very pastoral. It's following, going through different experiences, trying to find what is satisfactory and fulfilling in life.

And there is nothing apart from God that achieves that. But he goes through various stages, a scientific phase, a philosophical phase, a sort of agricultural phase, you know, raising flowers and crops.

He goes into the realm of the absurd, which civilization happens to do from time to time when rationalism gets too hard to bear or is unsatisfactory in providing answers.

Those realms are totally absurd, which occupies a lot of contemporary comedy.

The idea is that life without God is a futile series of dead ends that people pursue with great gusto and affection and enthusiasm.

And when they get to the end of that road, they sometimes even give up on life.

There used to be a wonderful man in England who was an expert in Renaissance music.

He was dedicated to it his whole life, very articulate, a great musician.

When he got to the end of his fulfilling his desire for this music, he took his life because there was nothing beyond it.

He had just found that it wasn't in any way the fulfillment that he had hoped for, the satisfaction.

So that's what Ecclesiastes is all about. Remember that God is saying to the young people, don't make all these bad decisions throughout the course of life.

Remember, God in your youth, turn to the only one who can guide and enliven and preserve and bless.

But I'm thinking too, Chris, especially I notice it is the tendency for celebrityism in preaching now.

Calvin says if we glorify ministers, we're robbing God of his glory. We're transferring it to undeserving human beings.

I'm just appalled. I don't know if it's a worldwide phenomenon, but putting ministers on pedestals and celebrating them and turning them into personalities is just awful and it's not good for people.

You know, to flatter and praise a minister is like somebody said, and I think it was Whitfield himself, it's like administering poison.

Pray for them, encourage them, but don't overdo it because the moment you put a person on a pedestal, they fall off.

And I'm thinking of, you know, it was Azahel Nettleton, the great preacher here in America in the 19th century, went to one of the most distinguished universities in the land.

And said while he was there, he had no distinction whatsoever. He probably didn't even make it in his grades beyond, you know, halfway in the class.

He just wasn't a scholar. When he got into the ministry, he said, everything I do is due to the grace and enabling of God.

There's John Witherspoon, the only clergy signatory to the Declaration of Independence coming from Scotland to America and saying that he had no distinction at all as a scholar or as a reputable person.

But all that he accomplished, you know, in this land was due to the grace of God. It just came as a lovely gift and surprise.

And you know, one that really thrills me, Chris, if I can mention it. Do you know of Eden Chapel near Cambridge in England?

No, I do not. Yeah, it has a rather sad story, but it was a very useful to God preeminent, if I can use that term, which

I'm trying to avoid, Baptist Chapel with a tremendous outreach and wonderful ministries over a couple of centuries.

And in the time of Charles Simeon at Cambridge University, Eden Chapel had a minister by the name of John Stittle.

And John Stittle was a great preacher and reached and blessed many lives. He couldn't even read.

John Stittle couldn't read. And a lot of people who left Charles Simeon's church would go to John Stittle and Charles Simeon would send gifts to John Stittle and support him and say,

I honor John Stittle as the minister to my strange sheep. You know, I think we put too much stay by accomplishments.

I'm tired of reading, as I did today. One particular minister has written 15 books.

So what? I mean, look how many books atheists and novelists write, and they're all trash.

The number of books don't matter, not even that they've written a book. I mean, I know Karl Barth has his problems with loyalty to the reformed faith, but he said that when he approaches

God at the end of his life, it won't be with a barrel load of books that he's written.

It will be with the simple words, Jesus loves me, this I know. We put far too much store,

I think, on scholarly attainment. We need scholars. We need academies. That's all absolutely right.

We need education. But we don't need usefulness. I don't want to read a book because the man's written 15 before, and I don't want to just listen to a man because he's got a reputation.

I want to discern the spirit of God in what he teaches. Sure, we need guidelines and protection from false teaching, but it just gets me down, and I think we're too boastful in our

Christianity, and we want to amaze the world. As somebody said, looking at some of the churches and houses here in Birmingham, look at their pillared

Babylons. We don't need to impress the world. The Lord Jesus was born in poverty, and he wasn't welcomed.

I know he got along well with some of the rich, but he didn't go for worldly fame or glamour.

I think as a church, we're on the wrong track with how we present ourselves to the world and how we present

Christ. Well, I think that what you are saying has a ton of truth that you've just driven in in the back of a giant dump truck, and we have a dilemma then,

I think. I happen to be a great, enthusiastic lover of Bible conferences, and I know that I would likely not be going to these conferences if all of the speakers were unknown people.

I do very much appreciate the fact that there are conferences like the ones that Josh Bice has created, known as the

G3 Conference. I'm very impressed with the fact that he not only does have world -famous men like John MacArthur and others of that stature, but he also has other men that are very little known outside of perhaps very small circles of Christians, but he's introducing some pastors to a greater audience that he knows are gifted, and he has them included on the roster of speakers with these other world -class, very renowned men.

Now, the problem is, how do we conduct these kinds of events, and of course, some might think that we shouldn't, but I think that if a man is very gifted by God, obviously he is going to grow in his status in the church, and he's going to become more and more renowned.

That doesn't always happen, obviously. You have some of the most powerful preachers who are pastors of small congregations that nobody outside that community knows about, but there are men, obviously, like John MacArthur, and we have

Paul Washer and others that have become very well known. But how do we make use of these great gifts, have events that include them?

We want to share videos and audio recordings with our lost friends and loved ones, because they have so powerfully and articulately presented gospel truths, and we want our lost ones to hear these messages delivered in such clear and powerful and skillful ways.

And we also want to convince, perhaps, our brothers and sisters that we believe are in error on certain theological issues, or we even want to just encourage people that are in a state of sorrow, or they're going through a trial, and we know that these very well -known people who might even be considered heroes of the faith, modern -day heroes, how do we make use of them without turning them into idols and having that right balance?

Yes, I agree with you, Chris. My comments are sweeping because I'm sort of upset about the issue, but I agree that it's how we do present these leaders that God has given us, these expositors of Scripture, how we do commend them to others.

I think there needs to be a certain moderation in what we say, but we do appreciate certain people, and there are certain folk that I would go anywhere to hear them because I know their love for God and their love of the

Word and how they present it. But I think it's more the abuse of it that I'm thinking of at the moment.

And there is a tendency for people to listen to somebody with a reputation and not necessarily understand the depth of what they're saying, and to be carried away by those who are in the limelight and who have notoriety.

I would have loved to have heard Whitfield, Spurgeon, these great men of God, but there has to be a sanctified approach to this.

I just go along with Calvin's statement. To glorify men for what they do in the service of God is to rob

God of His glory. We can say God enables them to do it, and God takes the credit, and I think sometimes we give the man the credit.

Yes, and it is a very difficult thing for we who are

Christians to keep ourselves free from pride because, as you were even saying earlier, even when we are involved in our most humble acts, they are tainted with sin.

And, in fact, when you said something to that aspect, I immediately thought of a quote by John Bunyan who said...

Excuse me? Yes, I'm sort of saying yay to John Bunyan.

Oh, okay. Yeah, John Bunyan's quote immediately popped in my head where he said, there is enough sin in my best prayer to send the whole world to hell.

And obviously, even an act of prayer that's supposed to be the most solemn act filled with humility can often be used as a time to demonstrate one's pride in a public meeting where they want everyone to hear their great eloquence and piety and even humility.

And, of course, we have that classic example of prayer that is filled with pride in Luke chapter 18.

And this is a passage that has great prominence in my heart because this was the passage that my sweet mother remembered in connection with the gospel when she was on her deathbed dying of pancreatic cancer.

And because she had lived a life as a committed Roman Catholic, I had my fears about some of the idolatry and superstition that she had been involved in as a faithful Catholic.

And I was starting to ask her questions because I knew that she was going to be in eternity at a very short period of time.

And I said to her, Mom, do you believe you're going to heaven?

And she said, yes. And I said, why do you believe you're going to heaven? And she said, because Jesus died for my sins.

And I said, well, you've had a life filled with good deeds. You have been sacrificial and selfless, very religious.

Your children can't even think of anything about you to complain about. Do you think that these good deeds and your religious life will help you get to heaven?

And she said, no. And I said, really, why? And she said, well, I remember that story in the

Bible. And she was referring to Luke 18, although she couldn't tell you the chapter and verse. And let me just tell you the story that my mother remembered, starting at verse 9.

And he, meaning Jesus, also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and viewed others with contempt.

Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, the other a tax collector.

The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself. God, I thank you that I am not like other people, swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.

I fast twice a week. I pay tithes of all that I get. But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying,

God be merciful to me, the sinner. I tell you, Jesus is saying, this man went to his house justified rather than the other, for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.

And I was blown out of the water when my mother, after remembering the main content of that passage, said,

Chris, I'm the tax collector. And it was a gift from God, beautifully wrapped and handed to me by God that gave me such assurance that my mother would be in heaven.

Yes. But can you tell us, what does it mean that there's a famous quote from Scripture that even unbelievers very often know?

It is a quote, probably most known in the

King James rendering of it, Pride cometh before the fall. But in the New American Standard Bible, my favorite translation,

Proverbs 16, verse 18, says, Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before stumbling.

Perhaps even more of a frightening rendering, because a fall doesn't sound all that scary, but pride goes before destruction.

And certainly is more of a frightening way of translating that. Can you please exegete that for us?

I think it is really destructive in a major way.

You can trip, you can stumble, and you can pick yourself up. The idea is that this fall is final and total.

It is destruction, which means that there's nothing redeemable, nothing that can be restored in a particular situation, because the fall is so great and so final and so radical within the heart of the person who is in that condition.

And unfortunately, that does happen. You know, we read of it in history in a number of cases.

I hope it doesn't happen in a Christian context, that the fall is beyond any further uplifting or restoration and elevation.

But I think it's a great warning that unless we're adhering closely to God and his word and enveloped within the care of his spirit, there is absolute danger around us all the time.

And we need to be wary, or as Paul says, circumspect. But I wanted to say too,

Chris, and you very graciously corrected my extreme denunciation, which isn't how

I would have put things if I were more thoughtful. I think what I want to say is that all

Christian ministers, whatever the nature of their ministry, its effects, should conduct their ministries with modesty.

And that I'm struggling for the words I wanted.

Obviously, humility. Yes, it'll come to me in a moment,

Chris. I've got a quote here from Whitfield, for example. And he was terribly afraid of what praise did to him, and how sometimes he would launch out in what he called the confidence of the flesh, which is so easy to do.

And what I'm not looking for so much are the accomplishments, because if they're good, they're

God's accomplishment. As Paul says, not that he was more successful than his colleagues, but it was all through Christ within him.

And we can't take the glory away from Christ, what he accomplishes through us.

So I would say it's not so much the accomplishments for which we praise the man, but we look to them because of their faithfulness.

And we like to know they're faithful, and we do need those, you know, we need to have the grounds for trusting them.

So I know that there has to be a certain amount of publicity, and, you know, Whitfield by no means abandoned publicity.

He made sure he was, you know, warning people that he was coming. But here's from his letters.

He says, I catch an old Christian without profound humility, if you can.

Believe me, sir, it is nothing but the flesh of ours, those cursive seeds of the proud apostate, which is lurking in us, that make us to think ourselves worthy of the very air we breathe.

When our eyes are open to the influences of divine grace, we then shall begin to think of ourselves as we ought to think, even that God is all and that we are less than nothing.

Wow. That was perfect for the discussion.

What we're going to do right now, we have one final break. It's going to be a lot more brief than the last two breaks.

But if you intend to send in a question, please do so quickly because we are rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

As always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Roger Salter and our theme of George Whitefield. We must be taken out of ourselves after these messages.

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And welcome back. This is Chris Orenson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And by the way,

I want to let our listeners know, and this is something that even our guest Roger Salter will likely be very interested to hear, since George Whitfield inspired his theme today on this program.

On Thursday of next week, that would be the 15th of October, God willing, we're going to have returning as our guest,

Kurt M. Smith. And he's going to be discussing his brand new book, Thundering the

Word, The Awakening Ministry of George Whitfield. That's Thursday, the 15th of October, right here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Pastor Salter, can you please, before I go to any more listener questions, we do have a couple that I will go to momentarily, but I want to make sure that you have a couple of minutes, at least uninterrupted, where you can say things that you definitely wanted to include in this discussion about the sin of pride and about humbling ourselves.

And as you put it in the theme today, that we must be taken out of ourselves.

Yes, yes, out of our self -interest, our self -promotion, our self -concern, and just making things suit us, whatever things they happen to be in our environment.

I've got two brief quotes from Whitfield, Chris, and I don't know,

I don't want to be awkward, but would I also have time for a four -standard poem by somebody?

Oh, of course. Okay, well, the two quotes from Whitfield that I'm most proud of, what

I looked up today, in one letter to a colleague, he says, the greatest foes you will find to be are those of your own heart.

And, you know, particularly in the ministry and for all Christians, we need to guard our hearts because we can have a false sense of security through emotional elation or whatever.

And the next thing is to be a true Christian. The first step to it is a broken heart, a heart melted down with the sense of sin and flying to Jesus Christ for righteousness, sanctification, and eternal redemption.

Thousands indeed place Christianity in good desires and having good desires, but this and much more a person may have and yet miscarry at last.

Pure and undefiled religion consists in a lively faith in Jesus Christ as the only mediator between God and man.

A faith that changes and renews the whole soul, takes it entirely off the world and fixes it wholly upon God.

And I think that's going some of the way of what explains his terms, his phrase, we need to be taken out of ourselves.

The next one is one I just found the other day among all my papers,

Chris. It's a poem used for meditation by a

PhD sermon on Jesus and the academy. And it's not done out of any sense of denying the value of scholarship and sound knowledge and good education and thorough familiarity with all the things that Christians and ministers need to know because we need to educate ourselves as to our capacity that God has given us.

But could I read this one? Of course. Okay. As I say, this is a

PhD and he's preaching to people who are receiving their PhDs.

So call the doctor, the title brother once I wore, but that could satisfy no more.

Since on my journey up to fame, I added MDiv to my name, but still

I was not yet seen as bright. What could I do to make me feel right? Now they call me doctor, how

I love it. No other accolade is above it. Never was I thrilled like that before.

As on the day upon my door, they added doctor to my name. Now I'll never be the same.

So call me doctor, now alive. On my ego, I must thrive. At conference rounds,

I will shine. Praise the Lord. The title's mine. Once I was humbled. Now I'm proud.

Walking erect with the doctor crowd. Surely the world has need of me. A man of learning with a grand degree.

The apostle knew no such bliss. For Paul had no title to equal this.

I tell you, my brothers, I'm not the same since I added doctor to my name.

That's great. And did you have one more thing you wanted to say before I go to another listener question?

I have nothing I'm burning to say. I think just to say that I'm not targeting anyone or any particular means of Christian service or profession at all.

I'm just saying that in the end, we are all living to our own glory, usurping the glory that we want for ourselves and want to radiate from ourselves to everybody else's wonder and amazement.

When all glory of any kind, however small or humble or great and amazing, must go to God alone.

Glory is his exclusively. Amen. Well, we have

Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who says, if you happen to be at a prayer meeting and you notice that someone in the prayer meeting has gone on and on and on, praying in such a way, as you were mentioning earlier on the show, that they are trying to impress those around him because of the eloquence of his speech.

And this is something that you know this person has done routinely, and it is not only a bit annoying, but it also chews into the time of the prayer service itself, and therefore there is less time for others to pray.

How can we best gently and lovingly rebuke this dear brother or sister in Christ and hopefully have them steered in a different direction for the future?

And of course, my first thought is you have to be careful of impugning motives to the person because you don't really know for a fact that they're doing it to impress people.

But what he's saying is a real phenomenon. In fact, I think that he rightly said

I mentioned something like that earlier. But if you could. Sometimes I think the

Lord does bless us with a certain liberty, but if it is constant and repetitive,

I think, as Jesus rebuked to the Pharisees for standing on street corners and offering long prayers, that it's really self -advertisement, exhibitionism as to how right we are with God.

I think that somebody would have to be handled very tactfully, somebody that this person would respect and be propelled to yield to, probably hurt in the first instant, but it's obviously making up for some sort of notoriety that they feel they're not getting in the ordinary course of their lives.

And maybe people aren't acknowledging how, and I'm saying this slightly sarcastically, how blessed this man is.

So he's got to make sure the trumpet plays loudly and long. I don't know his motivation either, but I think a very gentle getting together of two or three men to pray about it, to ensure that they're not doing out of a grudge or resentment, but simply trying to say, for the sake of others who would like to pray, there must be some room for them as well.

Yes, and one suggestion, I mean, this would be something that the elders of a church would have to decide if they want to orchestrate their prayer meetings like this, but I know that the church where I'm a member,

Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, they conduct the service in such a manner where if you have a prayer request, you are given the opportunity to raise your hand and give that prayer request.

But the elder leading the prayer service is the one who chooses men from the congregation to pray.

So in that sense, that may eliminate that problem. Of course, the elder doesn't have omniscience, so he might choose somebody that does the very same thing.

But the elders likely know the conduct of those in the congregation, and they know who is going to be more likely to do some grandstanding like that.

But I know what he's talking about. It's a real phenomenon. And to announce the terms of the meeting, that prayers are succinct and to the point.

Yeah, that's perfect. Yes. Yes, and for it to actually be announced, please be conscious of the fact that other people have prayer requests, so please don't take up too much time with your own prayer.

Chris, Mort and I were a minute late for service in Bristol in England, so we stood outside the door while the minister commenced his opening prayer, and half an hour later, we got through the door.

We came to college and prayed at the end of the meeting there, and the warning came from the kitchen that the students' meals were already on the table.

We do have an anonymous listener who says, Don't you think humility is the greatest key to bringing strife and tension and disputes in marriages and in many other circumstances where there is hostility, where you have to remember your lowly state and remember the sins for which you have been forgiven before you consider holding too much against the one or the people with whom you are disputing?

Yes, yes. I think as much as possible in disputation, there must be the desire for as much charity as is possible, but we do know that in time, rebukes and correction have to come, as was evident in Jesus.

I mean, he was perfect, so there was never anything wrong in his rebukes and anger, but there does come a time sometimes when wrongdoing and things that are out there that are not regular might just have to be rebuked, without a desire to wound, but simply to bring this thing that is out of order to an end.

Well, Roger, we are actually out of time now, and as always, I really appreciated your time with me today, and if you could remain on the line after the program so I could reschedule, or should

I say schedule, another interview with you, but I want to once again give the contact information for the

St. Matthew's Anglican Church of Birmingham, Alabama. First of all, you have stmanglican .weebly

.com, w -e -e -b -i -n -b -o -y -l -y -dot -com, stmanglican .weebly .com,

and also rogersalter .com, rogersalter .com, and salter is spelled

S -A -L -T -E -R. Thank you so much, Roger, for always being a wonderful guest, and I ask of you to please extend to Maureen my great appreciation and love for her.

I look forward to having an opportunity, God willing, to fellowshipping with you in person again, and I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater