Are Youth Pastors Real Pastors?

You know, we need to get people out of this mindset that says that I come to church in order to be segregated from the people that I'm supposed to minister to. So, you know, Ephesians talks about God as appointing the church pastors to equip the saints for the works of ministry.

So, what we're supposed to do, like if you regain a notion of what ministry actually is, pastors are supposed to equip the saints for the works of ministry so that they may build one another up in love.

And the way that that happens is not by segregating people out from the people that they're supposed to build one another up with and practice one another commands. The way that happens is that you have every single age in your church treating each other as if they're family, not like as if they have the plague.

People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio. The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone, and any who reject Christ therefore forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty.

God is hanging over our head. They will hear his words, they will not act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed and they will perish. God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended and became a man, died on the cross for sin, was resurrected on the third day, has ascended to the right hand of the father where he sits now to make intercession for us.

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words, they will act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day,.

Their house will stand. Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask. We're your host Harrison Kerrigan, Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age-old question, are youth pastors real pastors?

And before we get into the meat of this episode, I just wanted to ask you guys to go ahead and leave a like on this video and leave a comment as well, as that really helps us fight against the Christian-hating YouTube algorithm.

So go ahead and do that, and that's one way you can support us. And now as we're looking forward to this topic, this question that we're going to talk through, Tim, do you have any Bible verses that relate to youth pastors?

Whether the Bible Mentions Youth Pastors

Are there any Bible.

Verses about youth pastors? Tim Mullett. I don't know of any Bible verses about youth pastors, but I mean, certainly there's Bible verses about pastors in general. One of those could be 1 Timothy 3 .1, the saying is trustworthy.

If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore, an overseer must be above reproach. The husband of one wife, so reminded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

He must manage his own household well with all dignity, keeping his children submissive. For if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Moreover, he must be thought of well by outsiders so that he may not fall into disgrace, into the snare of the devil. So, that's a good passage to think about.

So, that's obviously talking about pastors in general. I noticed the distinct lack of, of, you know, the title youth pastor in that.

Jared Yeah, I mean, it's one of those mysterious things that, you know, we have all sorts of pastors. So, we have, you know, worship pastors, we have female pastors at times depending on what's going on.

Pete Female quote unquote. Pastors, yeah.

Jared Yeah, yeah. So, we have, you know, worship pastors, female pastors, we have, you know,.

Pete Jail ministry pastors. You've got, you know, sharing the gospel pastors or great commission pastors. Jared Outreach pastors, yeah.

Pete Outreach pastors. Jared We have all kinds of pastors, yeah. But then it's amazing that as you read the Bible, you don't really see any of these adjectives put on these things. So, that's troubling for sure.

Pete. Yeah, it's pretty much just, you know, there's a pot, there's, you know, the twelve apostles and then there was pastors and, you know, overseers or shepherds and then deacons and that's about all I can think of.

Am I forgetting anything?

Jared I mean, you know, that's about it.

Pete. That's at least the majority of it. So, there's obviously no Bible verses that mention youth pastors, but then we're, you know, so, we're asking the question, are youth pastors real pastors? Well, if we're basing the answer solely off of are there any Bible verses that say, you know, youth pastors, you know, this is to you, or something like that, or obey your youth pastors.

If there's no Bible verses like that, then what are we, you know, how do we figure out is a title like this actually biblical or not?

Jared Obey your youth pastors in the Lord for they are keeping watch over your Frisbee and we'll give it a count. Pete For your Frisbee.

Pete I don't remember reading that one.

Jared I mean, I put all these verses that I want to make up in my favorite book of the Bible, 3rd Timothy.

Pete. You have to let me know when it drops.

Jared. Unreleased, previously unreleased. No, I mean, it's one of those things where in the standard, I mean, I think, you know, your standard American church, it's certainly weird. I mean, so youth pastors, the idea of a youth pastor is weird in different directions.

You know, one of the reasons why it's weird is in, I would say, in most American churches, probably the idea of a youth pastor is basically just an adult friend, you know, slightly older adult friend to young kids who, you know, maybe just like barely more spiritually mature than them.

And so he operates as kind of a go-between between the children and their parents and that kind of way. And his job is primarily to entertain them and to keep them occupied and, you know, maybe at best, you know, be there to talk to them about whatever spiritual concerns they might have because they wouldn't want to talk to someone who's like actually old and mature and godly in any way.

And so, I mean, typically that's like the idea of a youth pastor is just someone maybe who aspires to be a pastor one day and, you know, he's just given the grunt work of taking care of the kids, so to speak, so the young people.

And most of that, I mean, I don't know, most of that probably involves, you know, vast majority of his, you know, time involves trying to play silly games and entertain them and then maybe he'll throw a five-minute devotional in there too, you know.

So, I mean, I'm sure that there's obviously a spectrum where there's quote-unquote youth pastors who are more serious than all that, you know, but then I would say that that isn't too much of a caricature of what we're talking about.

So for many, if not most youth pastors, you are probably talking about someone whose primary qualifications for the job is their ability to throw a frisbee or come up with goofy games or something like that.

You know, they're probably loud personality and, you know, that kind of thing, so they're entertaining to that demographic in that way. So, you know, part of the problem is what's actually happening with most youth pastors in that they're less of a pastor and more of a game player or something like that.

But then, you know, the other part of the problem, and this is, you know, probably I would think more of, well, I don't know if it's more significant, but it's certainly a problem, a different kind of problem for sure.

But the problem is that like when you think about this word pastor, word pastor actually has a meaning. And one of the things that, you know, particularly Southern Baptist churches do is that they have a great capacity to invent new positions that are not in the Bible.

And then if you invent these new positions, then the problem is that after you've invented this position that doesn't exist, then it's a way of handing off the responsibilities that that position has.

So, like a pastor has certain biblical roles and requirements in the Bible and expectations, and then not only that, a pastor has qualifications. So, we read the qualifications for, you know, someone who has the office of overseer or pastor or elder in the Bible.

And then if you're going to create a new position called a youth pastor, then functionally the move that many churches are making is that they put someone in that position who doesn't meet, like, the basic qualifications of a pastor.

So, they don't, I mean, typically, I mean, most American churches, they don't really want, they don't consider their youth pastor to be a pastor-pastor, right? Petey Laughs I mean, no one thinks about them that way.

I mean, like, you know, the vast majority of adults wouldn't want to go to the youth pastor to get pastoral care or something like that.

Jared Right. Yeah, or like, if the youth pastor was preaching on Sunday to, you know, to everyone, it would feel probably, for the adults at least, it would feel more like a, oh, it's kid time, huh? Petey Yeah, this would be a downgrade.

You know,.

I don't even think in most churches that would ever happen, you know? And then, you know, certainly, they wouldn't put this youth pastor on an elder board, right, as an equal decision maker, you know, within the church in that way.

So, whatever a youth pastor is, in the minds of many people, it's almost like a, you know, B-tier pastor or something like that that isn't quite a pastor. You don't want to give them all the roles and responsibilities of a pastor, but he's just, he's good enough to entertain the kids for the most part.

So, it's that kind of thing. And once it gets to that level, you are, you're doing something pretty dangerous there, I think.

Petey. So, what, you know, I mean, what is the, like, where is this role coming from? I mean, I know you talked about, like, hey, we try to invent these new things, but how do we get to a place where we have this role that is being given the name pastor, so the office is including the name, you know, the title pastor, but then it's not viewed like a pastor would be viewed?

How Churches Invent Demographic Ministries

Jared. Yeah, I mean, part of the problem is that, you know, it's, I mean, you have a lot of influence in the church to do this kind of thing, and so, you know, in a lot of your big churches, you have a church culture that expects that you have certain ministries, like, ministries are being redefined, like, they're not ministries in the sense of, like, what ministry actually is, but ministries, like, in big church culture are just, you know, events, essentially, right?

Events that are tailored to minister towards particular demographics, right? So, you know, in your standard big church, you're going to have, like, every age, every stage, right? So, you know, you're going to have preschool ministry, you're going to have, you know, school-age ministry, I mean, you'll have middle school, you know, classes, you'll have your high school classes, and then, you know, maybe your college and young adult classes or something like that, and then, you know, then you'll have your men's ministry, and then you have your women's ministry, but then basically, like, ministry in that way is a term that's being hijacked, and then you're using that term to basically divide the church up by demographics, right?

So, you need, like, every demographic that you can think of, really, there's going to be churches out there that are going to, you know, segregate the church body up in that way, and so, basically, you have, like, church, you know, church, which, for the most part, I mean, for the most part, you know, most people are going to go to that unless you have some kind of abomination called children's church or something like that, but most of your people are going to go to church together, you know, big church together, but then, you know, through all the other, you know, ways in which the church ministers to the body, you know, this is going to be found in, like, these events or these programs and, you know, these initiatives that are most often segregated on the basis of age or gender or something along those lines, and so, when you do that, then you need people to run these things, basically.

So, once you have the expectation that the church body needs to be separated out so that everyone can be around people who are like them, you know, a lot of that's modeled after just the public school system and that kind of thing in those kind of ways.

And so, I mean, there's problems at almost every single end where everyone thinks of themselves as a consumer that is going to church that needs to have their—they need to be surrounded by people just like them and then sheltered from people who are different than them because that would be awkward and they wouldn't have any common ground with them.

And then, so, you have to create, you know, events for them and create, quote-unquote, ministries for them, and then, you know, the result of that is going to be that eventually you're going to create this position, this made-up position called a youth pastor or something along those lines in order to manage, like, these expectations that are found nowhere in the Bible whatsoever.

Pete. So, why then are the, I mean, we could, you know, I could probably ask a lot more questions about the whole creating different, you know, demographic groups within the church that, you know, is introducing this part, you know, is introducing a lot of problems, and in particular, you know, we're talking about the youth pastor problem that it creates right now.

So, I'm sure there's a whole lot of questions I could ask about that, but I think right now, you know, I'll stay on the topic of youth pastors specifically, and, you know, so, it's one thing to say, hey, you know, we're a big church, we have a lot of different demographic groups, and we need people to run those demographic groups, right?

That's one thing to say, but then it's another thing altogether to say, hey, I'm going to find, I'm going to, I need a pastor to run this specific, you know, group within the subgroup of the church but I'm not going to hold them to the same standards that I would hold a regular pastor.

Now, is anyone saying that out loud? No. No one's, no pastor is going to say out loud, at least no pastor that I've ever heard of is going to say out loud, oh, yeah, we have a youth pastor, and they don't meet the actual pastoral qualifications given in the Bible, but we just made them a pastor anyway.

No one's saying that, you know, so, the problem's not being admitted to, but then at the same time, everyone knows it's a problem because, I mean, you can go on YouTube and look up videos from people who, you know, are making fun of, you know, the youth pastor stereotype basically, and a lot of it is this sort of like, hey, you know, I'm just like you, like, I'm just like you, kids.

You know, maybe I'm just freshly married or maybe I'm not even married at all. I understand all of your, you know, I do all the things that you do. I'm interested in all the things that you do and this and that, and yeah, you know, the entertainment stuff is a big kind of joke within the Christian community.

So, why is it then that, you know, even though pastors aren't going to admit that they are lowering the standards, oftentimes they are actually lowering the standards, and I don't know if they don't realize they are or if they just don't think carefully enough about it or if they just simply don't care about it, but why is it that the standards are being lowered for this one specific position?

When you might have, you know, like a, I mean, we were joking about the, what do we call it, the great commission pastor or the outreach pastor, you know, the jail ministry pastor, whatever it is, you know, I think it's a lot less likely that a church would lower the standards for those positions than they would, you know, for the youth pastor one.

It seems a lot more likely they would lower the standards for the youth pastor one. So, why is it specifically youth pastors that seem to get that sort of treatment?

Pragmatism and Church Growth Replace Biblical Qualifications

Jared I mean, it's funny, I'm aware of a situation where, I mean, I know of a youth pastor who when I was going to seminary, when I was in seminary and when I was in Bible college, and this has been, you know, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, whatever it's been at this point, but he was in a youth pastor role and then he's been in that role.

I mean, it's kind of funny, he's been in that role the whole time since I've, you know, been in seminary Bible college doing the same things. And you see pictures of him on social media right now and he's still dressed up as the youth pastor.

It's like, he hasn't grown up or something like that. Like he's just, he's still wearing the youth pastor costume trying to be relevant. And it's like, when are you going to age out of this? When are you going to age out of this, you know, grow up and get more mature or something?

But, you know, it is that kind of thing. But, you know, I think related to the question you're asking, you know, why are the expectations that way? I don't think that the vast majority of churches are even remotely thinking about anything the Bible has to say about church structure or things along these lines anyways.

So, I mean, for the vast majority of churches, it's pure pragmatism all the way down. So, I mean, they're not really governed by the concern, what does the Bible say and how can we do that? I mean, as I've talked to pastors along these lines, I mean, it's in their minds, this is an inappropriate question to even be asking.

What does the Bible say about how we should, about pastoral issues like that? Basically, it reduces to the Bible is not sufficient and we need to just be creative and try to reach people however we need to try to reach people.

And it's not meant to give us guardrails as to how we do ministry in general. So, they're not even asking those kind of questions. And I mean, I wish that I was being hyperbolic or something along those lines, but that's just how it works.

I mean, they're not thinking about church government issues from the standpoint of let's go to the Bible and look and see what they say because it has everything we need in order to know how to honor God with these things.

I mean, that's just not what they're doing. They're just, their motive, and I'm not saying that in a way to slander people. I'm saying that because these are the actual real conversations I've had with church leaders in denominational settings about these kind of topics.

And if I'm the individual who is looking at them and saying, hey, don't we need to do what the Bible says here and make sure that what we're doing is biblical, they look at you as if you're saying something crazy.

It's just like, yeah, well, of course the Bible doesn't tell us how to run a church.

Pete Well, and you've even dealt with that some. I mean, like on an anecdotal. Jared Oh, yes, yes. Like you've had things where, hey, we're presenting our church bylaws to a certain denominational group and there's aspects that they disagree with that you point out like, hey, this is just quoting a Bible verse.

This is just mimicking the language of the Bible. Here are the references that we're trying to mimic in terms of the leadership structure of church and their response to that is essentially like disgust and rejection.

Jared. Right, right. Because the Bible is not sufficient. It doesn't, I mean, and they'll even go so far as to say it's, they'll make the dumb arguments the Bible is not a science textbook or something like that, so why do you expect it to tell you how a church should be run or something like that?

I mean, in their mind, I mean, like all the Bible is good for is just to tell you how to be saved and then everything else is just up in the air, man. So, I mean, I think with these kind of issues, they're not even really thinking about it along the lines of what does the Bible say on these issues.

They just, you know, a lot of it's just cultural, you know, so they have their senior leadership team at their church that runs things. It's purely pragmatic in that way. I mean, they're not thinking about, like, the Bible has elders who have qualifications.

They're thinking about, the vast majority of American churches are thinking, hey, we need to have a senior pastor or a solo senior pastor, and then, you know, either the deacons are running the church or committees are running the church or whatever.

I mean, whatever's happening there at that point, they're not even thinking about it as, like, they need to get a plurality of elders. And the word pastor is just basically just an adjective they put on different, you know, specialized ministry demographics here, and if you ask them why are they doing that, it's just like they can't even comprehend that they need to give a justification for it.

Does that make sense?

Pete Yeah. Yeah, and I guess in a lot of people's minds, it's kind of like pastor is almost like, you know, CEO type thing and that's it. Jared Yeah, so they don't even feel Pete There's no function beyond that.

Jared. Yeah, they don't feel any responsibility whatsoever to, like, actually defend what they're doing from the Bible. So, then, you know, it's just very difficult to have conversations with those kind of individuals.

And, you know, when it comes to, like, a youth pastor or something like that, that's just a word that doesn't have any meaning. Do you see what I mean? So, like, it's just a word that they're throwing around.

And I mean, the same thing's happening in the SBC with all the, you know, the female pastor kind of stuff. It's just like, hey, yeah, they're not allowed to be a senior pastor, but the Bible doesn't say they can't be a woman's pastor.

And then what happens? So, like, you have to think about the move that just happened there. Like, the move that just happened is they invented a new category that's not in the Bible, and then they're trying to ask of the Bible to refute this category that they made up, right?

So, it's like, where in the Bible does it say you can't have a female pastor? Like, for women, right? The Bible says, like, women can teach other women, so what's the problem with a woman pastor of other women?

Well, the same thing, what's the problem with a youth pastor? Like, you know, a person in your congregation intentionally shepherding the young people with a Frisbee or something like that. Now, I mean, you can push back on, like, well, how biblical is what is this pastoring actually in real life looking like, right?

But then when it comes right down to it, though, the idea of a youth pastor is just, it's a foreign idea to Scripture, and once you make that category, then there's no qualifications that are related to it whatsoever, and there's no rules.

The Bible doesn't govern that. And that's the same thing that happens at a denominational level. Once you make a parachurch organization, then you can just violate everything the Bible says at the local church level because you have a parachurch organization now, and this is different, right?

And so, basically, what you do is you create new categories. These categories aren't bound by the Scriptures. In their mind, the Scripture doesn't say anything to these categories, so you can't criticize them in any way.

So then when it comes to a youth pastor, that's the move that has happened. So we need, like, there's a need, like, we need to have these groups, like, for every single demographic in our church in order to minister to people.

We have to surround them, like, you have to segregate them from everyone else in the body, and you have to surround them by people who are like them. And then, you know, and predominantly, the impulse behind this is because, like, most, you know, parents in America have child-centered homes, and the kids, like, the parents think, like, if my kids like going to church, that means they're a Christian.

That's what they think. So if you can get my kid to like going to the church, that gives me confidence that they're a Christian. And if all you do is put them in a room with old people who are not like them,.

Who are seriously…. Pete. You know, they're smelly, and they're old, and they're wrinkly, and no one wants to be around that, Tim. Jared. That's creepy, right? So,.

You know, are you wanting to run them all away and make them hate the church, right? So, I mean,.

That's how you do it. Put them around the old people.

Jared I mean, Andy Stanley went so far as to even say that, you know, if your church doesn't have a youth ministry, then you hate the kids at your church and you're going to make them hate church. And I mean, he just crassly says it because he knows the game.

But I mean…. Pete.

Well, there's a lot of things that Andy Stanley says that, you know, are just laughable,.

To put it gently. Jared I can't tell who's worse, him or that Kevin M. Young guy, you know?

I don't know, man. I mean, they're both pretty bad, yeah.

Jared. Yeah. But the idea, though, is that, like, okay, like, you're approaching it from a very man-centered perspective, and Mizzou churches are very man-centered. So, basically, you have, like, individuals who are perceived as seekers, and then they're seeking God, but then you have to entertain them.

You have to give them what they want in order to make them feel welcome and a part of the place. And if somehow they can feel welcome and a part of the place long enough, you know, you water down the content, and you make them feel welcome long enough by giving them what they want and appealing to their fleshly desires, you give them those kind of things, that's going to make them feel connected with the place and want to stay and everything else.

And so, this is just a product of all that to where you have a bunch of parents who have worldly kids who they haven't discipled at all, and then they're looking to the church, basically, to fix them for them, right?

And then they don't really care what that looks like so long as, like, the result is my kid likes the church, right? So, if my kid likes coming, then I can feel good about the fact that, you know, maybe spiritually they're going to be all right.

And so, that's the only metric that matters. So, then all you're doing is you're giving them, you know, an immature adult friend, your quasi-adult friend that will, you know, have the conversations with them, you know, theoretically, that you're unable to have because you've lost all influence but with them yourself, right?

And so, they're going to do the job of discipling them for you, so, you know, but then you don't really care what that looks like as long as it looks like my kids like the church and aren't going to fight about wanting to go and fuss about it, you know?

So….

The Absurdity of Calling Unqualified Leaders Pastors

Pete. So, does that mean all youth pastors are disqualified. Shams?

Jared I mean, I think the idea of a youth pastor is an absurd idea, okay? I think it's an absurd idea because it's not really in the Bible. Now, I mean, all right, let's say, hey, and there are churches where you have youth pastors who take that role more seriously and they are more intentionally and seriously discipling their kids.

And let's say instead of, you know, in their hour-long youth group meeting, you know, on Wednesday night, let's say that they're on the more conservative end and, you know, it's 45 minutes of teaching and 15 minutes of games instead of, you know, the 55 minutes of fun and five minutes of teaching kind of thing or something like that.

I mean, that is certainly, that's a better situation than the other, okay? So, there's a spectrum of youth pastors. Some are, like, you can imagine them anywhere along those spectrum. And if you have to, like, you know, say, okay, we're going to have a youth pastor, I would say, well, you know, maybe, hopefully, it's more on the 45.

Pete and Jared laugh.

Hopefully, he's more of the, you know, teach for 45 minutes, play games for 15 minutes kind of youth pastor. That's my kind of youth pastor. Jared Yeah, hopefully, I mean, that would.

Obviously be better, better than the other, but then, like, but still, right? So, there's a foundational problem. Is this person a pastor, right? Jared. Is he a pastor-pastor? Like, is he qualified First Timothy 3 pastor?

If he's not, like, First Timothy qualified pastor, like, then you're playing a game that you need to stop playing, okay? So, you don't need, we don't need, like, youth pastors who are unqualified that we're calling pastors.

This is why we have female pastors in the SBC is because we're playing this game where we're just calling everyone a pastor, even though they don't admit the qualification. So, I mean, at the very least, call them a youth leader or something like that and save yourself some shame or something, you know?

So, that would be a step in the right direction, but then Pete.

Well, you know, just to push back a little bit on that, I mean, isn't that what a lot of, you know, a lot of churches are trying to do, like, with the women pastor stuff is, like, hey, you know, whoa, hang on.

She's not a pastor, you know? She's the head organizer of women's ministry. Jared. Yep. Pete. You know, like, so, I mean, you know Jared I'm not saying it's a good solution. Pete. I get you're saying that, yeah, no, I get you're making a distinction, hey, that's better, not necessarily best kind of thing, but, you know, that, I mean, that's the same thing they're doing with the women's pastor stuff, so

Jared I'm not saying it's good. Pete. It seems like you might be kind of opening up the door there.

Jared Yeah, I'm not, I'm trying to talk about, well, conceptually, how do you fix the mess that you're in? Okay? Pete Right, right. Jared Conceptually, step one would probably be to, like, make him at least teach 45 minutes.

Step two would be to quit calling him a pastor if he's not going to be a pastor, right? Pete Yeah. Jared So, step three would be, okay, if you're going to have the position, actually make him a pastor, qualified pastor who is actually a co-elder at your church and start

Hire someone that you would be okay with teaching Pete. Right. Jared. Big church, you know, big church on Sunday.

Pete. Right, right. So, that'd be, like, step three would be to, hey, like, why don't you actually make this dude a real pastor, right? Like, get, like, not just an adult friend who is still trying to dress trendy and all that for 20 years.

Jared Hey, to be fair, there's some churches out there where even the head pastors, you know, they're trying Pete Trying the best. Jared They're trying to dress and appeal to the younger generation.

Pete. Yep. So, there's that, but then, I mean, I think ideally what's lost in all of this is that God has appointed elders to, you know, shepherd a local body. And like, so, what's lost in all this is that you do need to have elders who are viewed as elders, who are functioning as elders, who are qualified as elders, who are, you know, leading up these, you know, the teaching ministries of the church.

And, you know, what would be even better is that if we could get out of our minds that, like, the best way to minister, quote unquote, to people is to create special interest groups for particular age demographics and just see what the Bible says about one another ministry within the body.

So, I mean, there's 38 one another commands in the New Testament, and you'll see that we're instructed to admonish one another, to exhort one another, correct one another, rebuke one another, encourage one another, greet one another, welcome one another.

I mean, there's just 38 one another commands that those kids, like, in your youth ministry, they have to adults, like, and those adults have to them. And there's a lot of blessings that come from multigenerational church life.

You know, we need to get people out of this mindset that says that I come to church in order to be segregated from the people that I'm supposed to minister to. So, you know, Ephesians talks about God as appointing the church, you know, pastors, to equip the saints for the works of ministry.

So, what we're supposed to do, like, if you regain, like, a notion of what ministry actually is, pastors are supposed to equip the saints for the works of ministry so that they may build one another up in love, and the way that that happens is not by segregating people out from the people that they're supposed to build one another up with and practice one another commands.

The way that happens is that you have every single age in your church treating each other as if they're family, not, like, as if they have the plague and it's going to be too embarrassing to be in the same room with them learning the same things that they're learning, you know, interacting with them on a regular basis.

I mean, what, like, a biblical church is a church where everyone sees themselves as, like, a body part in this church, a member of this church that has a responsibility to care for every other body part in that church, you know?

I mean, one of the things that's most encouraging to me about our church is that, I mean, you can have young kids who are talking to old people, you know, before and after the service and having normal conversations, and our church is a family.

It's not just a bunch of segregated people who need their own little things in order to be okay. So, I mean, that's the problem beneath the problem, you know? And then that points to the problem that you're talking about where, you know, if you just, if you were just to, you know, not call him a pastor, but he's functionally operating like one, then you're just playing a game too in that way.

But at least you're not, you know, butchering the English language.

Pete. Okay. All right. Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the conversation on, and you know, obviously, like you said, this is one of those things that's really plaguing the American church in a lot of ways, and I think really, really hindering younger generations from being able to step into faithfulness within the church, setting a really bad example for them in terms of what, you know, what the church is actually supposed to look like, what are the purposes of the church, and you know, what are the actual biblical benefits and blessings that come from being a part of a local church that is intimately involved with one another instead of, you know, being segregated in all these different ways.