June 23, 2021 Show with Roger Salter on “Lessons from Latimer: What this Marytr Still Teaches Us”

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 23rd day of June 2021 and I'm thrilled to have back a dear friend who

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I always love interviewing who always has some brilliant insight into the faith into the scriptures into church history and I'm sure today will be no exception.

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Many of you who are Christian history buffs church history buffs may know that this fall is going to mark an anniversary in church history this fall this

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October I believe it will be October the 16th in fact will be the 466th anniversary of the execution of a great hero of the faith coming from the

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English reformation and he was among the Oxford martyrs and this precious brother in Christ that we are going to be addressing today is

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Hugh Latimer and specifically we are addressing the theme lessons from Latimer what this martyr still teaches us nearly 466 years after his execution for his faith and it's my honor and to have to address that issue

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Roger Salter rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham Alabama and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Roger Salter.

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It's always a great joy to be with you Chris may I say it's lovely to be sharpening iron with you again today it's a great privilege always to be interviewed by you.

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Amen and I echo those sentiments very heartily brother well before we go into the theme as we always do let our listeners know about St.

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Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham Alabama. Well we are a congregation small very much allied to the reformation and the reformation heritage of the

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Anglican communion we uphold the 39 articles we endeavor to offer worthy worship to God through our traditional services that we have our grandness services in modern

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English and we value so much the doctrines of grace which of course penetrate everything that we've received from the reformation and history in line with that great event down through the generations it's very much of deep importance to us that we retain that tradition and fulfill our responsibility to the heritage that men like Latimer have passed on to us.

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Well praise God if anybody wants more information about St.

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Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham Alabama go to stm which stands for St.

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Matthew's stmanglican .weebly .com and that's spelled w e e b l y .com

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stmanglican .weebly .com you can also go to Roger Salter's personal website rogersalter .com

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and Salter is spelled s a l t e r. Well tell us who

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Hugh Latimer was uh the years uh where he ministered or when he ministered

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I should say uh and why on earth was such a godly man tied to a stake and burned alive nearly 466 years ago.

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I think through um the time we have available to us Chris we can cover as much of that material as we can um it stuns me at the moment to think of the reality of martyrdom and especially the cruel martyrdom that Latimer and his colleagues endured those 466 years ago and uh we'll cover as much as we can about this remarkable hero for the

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Christian faith. Hugh Latimer was born in 1485 and he was martyred in 1555 uh for people who have an idea of the various English counties he was born in Leicestershire as a young man and as a student he was educated at Cambridge University and throughout those years and for sometimes sometime after his ordination he was still staunchly unreformed you know the reformation period was beginning to awaken in developments under Henry VIII were uh there were glimmers of of the reformation present but Hugh Latimer opposed them strongly almost bitterly and his conversion is a remarkable story because there was another man who eventually was martyred called

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Thomas Bilney a very shy and withdrawn man who was ordained as a minister in the

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Church of England in 1519. He heard Hugh Latimer weigh in heavily and bitterly against the doctrines that were coming to the fore with the

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Luther's influence in England and he decided that this man who was so able and so fluent in his speech and preaching would make an excellent convert to the cause of the reformation so he went to make his confession to Hugh Latimer and virtually it was his testimony of faith.

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In 1524 Bilney approached Latimer and encouraged him to consider the gospel and to place his confidence in it and this is what occurred so little

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Bilney as he's known is the instrument under God for the conversion of Hugh Latimer and his active ministry he got him involved in practical ministry by visiting prisoners and the lepers and dealing with the poor and he was really

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Latimer's tutor his mentor so that was probably in terms of Anglicanism the best confession that was ever made to a priest.

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Now who was on the throne in England when this horrific tragedy occurred?

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Mary, the one known as Bloody Mary, the Catholic woman and she was trying to eliminate all of the advances of the reformation in England and so she managed to have all of the leaders arrested and imprisoned and a remarkable number of them martyred burnt at the stake and Latimer with his colleagues

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Cranmer and Ridley and John Bradford were all arrested in the tower together because of a shortage of separate cells encouraging each other for what lay ahead of them and at Latimer's martyrdom you had

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Cranmer the leader of the reformation who was after Latimer and Ridley, Ridley probably the best theologian of the day and Latimer the greatest preacher of the day so these men were a cluster together for knowing what they were going to go through and it was a very bloody and cruel end set in for all of them that they endured through their faith in Christ and in no way did they put at risk or in any way compromise their witness to the gospel.

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One of the most precious utterances

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I have ever read from the lips of a martyr were from Hugh Latimer when he said to his brother in Christ Nicholas Ridley who was about to be executed as well, be of good comfort master

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Ridley and play the man we shall to stay light such a candle by God's grace in England as I trust shall never be put out.

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Quite a remarkable utterance and I believe his words were true even though England today has tragically become nearly a barren wasteland theologically there still remains a remnant of good and honorable and powerful

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Christian preachers of the gospel that still live and dwell in that nation and spread the gospel throughout

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England and the United Kingdom and beyond. That's right Chris I mean they are remarkable words and they thrust upon us in this generation the responsibility to keep that candle burning.

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All of us who are Christians and I'm not just thinking of Anglicans but all of us who perished the reformation and the reformed faith are now entrusted with the maintenance of that light to which

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Latimer referred and I'm hoping throughout this interview that we can begin to see some of the ways in which we can over all those centuries be united.

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Well I think that we should enter in some of the into some of the precious pearls of wisdom, jewels our dear friend has been disconnected and hopefully he'll be back and while we have been disconnected let me ask my listeners for a urgent prayer request.

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I just received word via text from my niece

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Regina, one of my oldest brother John's children children who's an adult with a child of her own in Justin, Texas that my brother

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John who many of you have been hearing me ask for prayer for John, my brother

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John who is an unbeliever my brother John has cancer, critical stage emphysema and an inoperable aneurysm.

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Well I just heard from my niece that he is back in the hospital and he is very sick.

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That is all I know about my brother John's condition right now.

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I would urge you to please pray for him not only that the Lord rescues him physically from what may be the brink of death.

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He had told me prior to this my brother John that his doctor said that if he gets pneumonia one more time it will likely be his last bout with pneumonia because he will likely not survive the battle and so I don't know if he has pneumonia or not but I'm asking you folks to please pray for him but infinitely more important than all of that pray that I hear a good report that my brother

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John has truly repented and embraced the genuine the true gospel of Jesus Christ in the scriptures and that that begins a little revival in his own family with his wife and his daughter and his grandchild and everyone else that knows and loves them.

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I would appreciate that very much and I guess I'm going to go to a break right now because we still have not heard back from Roger Salter so don't go away we'll be back after these messages and hopefully

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Roger Salter will be with us. I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries my friend

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. That was the voice of Roger Salter, rector of St.

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Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, and I hope that I hear his live voice right now.

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Are you with us, Roger? Way back again, Chris. In fact, your connection actually sounds much better than it did before.

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Really? Yes. So perhaps whatever happened, well not even perhaps, it was a godsend because something for the better has changed.

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That's good to know. And it gave me the opportunity, your disconnect gave me the opportunity to ask my listeners for, to give my listeners an urgent prayer request.

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I just, while on the air with you, received a text from my niece, my oldest brother,

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John, who is 76 in Justin, Texas, who has cancer and critical stage emphysema and an inoperable aneurysm, but once again returned to the hospital and is not doing well.

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And so I ask not only you and Maureen and your family and your church family, but also the listeners to please pray for my brother, not only for a physical healing, but infinitely more important that he is saved by the precious blood and grace and mercy of Jesus Christ.

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Yes. But Roger, why don't we enter now into some of these lessons that you believe we can still learn 466 years after the martyrdom of Hugh Latimer.

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Yes, I'll endeavor to do that, Chris. We have been praying for John and we shall continue.

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We were just talking about Latimer's meeting with Thomas Bilney and he said of Bilney, he was the instrument whereby

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God called me to knowledge, for I may thank him next to God for that knowledge that I have in the word of God.

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So Bilney had a remarkable preaching ministry too, but this meeting with Latimer is of great historic importance.

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Well, I thought I'd start with a comment by Marcus Loan, who has written a remarkably good biography of Latimer in a book entitled

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Masters of the English Reformation, published by Banner of Truth, and he says that Latimer was appointed

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Bishop of the Diocese of Worcester in 1535. That encompassed other dioceses that were formed at a later stage, but it was in those dioceses that Latimer was, as Marcus Loan says,

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Latimer's convictions on the supreme duty of the preacher were shocked indeed by the neglect which he everywhere discovered, and his sermons refer more than once to pulpits which were like bells without clappers or to people who were more in love with Robin Hood than the word of God.

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And somewhere along the line this afternoon, I'd like to refer to what is corresponding to that fascination with Robin Hood, the folk hero that distracts us from preaching the gospel fully and with clarity and boldness in our own time, because so much of what

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Latimer experienced is what we're experiencing today, and there's a, you know, a dearth in a sense, looking at the church in general, of great gospel preaching and of bringing the knowledge of Christ to people, and so I think we can almost say that Latimer in the 16th century is a companion with us in our alarm at what is happening in the 21st century.

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The two eras locked together in terms of their need of the gospel, their ignorance of God, and their carelessness of soul.

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But even as a bishop, Latimer underwent two imprisonments in the reign of Henry VIII, and his great emphasis was the vital importance of scripture.

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His preaching was so lively and vivid and dynamic, and in the best sense of the word, he became very popular.

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And it's very likely that in the first book of homilies that we have received from the

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Reformation in the Church of England, it used to be a part of our confession of faith.

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It no longer has that operative role anymore, but it's thought that the sermon on a faithful exhortation to the reading of scripture, number 12 in those sermons, was originated or authored by Latimer himself.

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And it's a remarkable fact that he preached in 1547.

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The topic he chose was on the plow, and he compares the minister's role to that of a plowman.

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And the idea is that as a plowman, as somebody who's working in the

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Lord's field, there is a great comparison between these two roles, the manual role and the spiritual role of the minister.

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And he says, I liken preaching to a plowman's labor and a prelate to a plowman, for as the plowman first setteth forth his plow, and then tilleth his land, and breaketh it in furrows, and sometimes ridgeth it up again, so the prelate, the preacher, hath many diverse offices to do, now casting them down from the law, now ridging them up again with the gospel, now weeding them by telling them their faults, now clotting them by breaking their stony hearts.

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Here's the emphasis of Latimer, especially on, I say it's on all ministers of the gospel, but especially on bishops, to be preachers of the word.

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Thoroughgoing advocates of the gospel and emissaries of Christ, and of course he knew that most bishops in his time were not fulfilling that role, and the

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Sermon on the Plow is a series of sermons in which he was addressing the idle and luxuriating bishops of his time.

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So the great thing we can learn from Latimer, first of all, and at his great cost, is the priority of proclaiming the gospel, in all its clarity, simplicity, with boldness and compassion and strength of conviction.

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So I think that's the first part of his legacy, that emphasis on the importance of the declaration of the word of God.

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By the way, where can these written sermons be found? Where were they republished and so forth?

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They were republished in the 19th century, as were all of the writings of the reformers, the surviving writings.

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I can't remember the title of the series, Chris, and I don't know how many of them have been reprinted in full and are available for people to peruse and ponder.

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There probably is some way of finding how many of these sermons have been modernized in English and made available to the public.

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I'm sure somewhere, some of them at least, are reprinted.

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But I have a tiny book that I can scarcely read, which has about a dozen of his sermons, but the print and the old

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English make it very difficult to comprehend. And I'm not sure that there's been much of an appetite for them in the last 50 years or so.

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He has the reputation, but we really don't have, as far as I can see, much evidence of his great competence of a minister of the word.

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We just know the consequences of that devotion to the gospel of Christ.

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Wow. Well, I'm going to do some homework and try to find out how many, if any, of these sermons are now currently available in print.

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I've got one small quote that Marcus Lone gives from the plow, and he says, this is the most famous passage of all in its indignant eloquence.

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He scathed the bishops of his time and their devotion to the schoolmen rather than to the scripture.

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And he says, and now I would ask a strange question, who is the most diligent bishop and prelate in all

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England? I can tell for, I know him who it is. I know him well.

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Now, I think I see you listening and heartening that I should name him. There is one that passes all the other and is the most diligent prelate and preacher in all

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England. And when you know who it is, I will tell you it is the devil.

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He is the most diligent preacher of all other. He is never out of his diocese.

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He is never from his cure. He shall never, we shall never find him unoccupied.

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He is ever in his parish. He shall never find him idle. I warrant you.

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So he's making that tremendously dire comparison between these neglectful and ignorant bishops and what their prime duty is, is to declare openly and continually the gospel of Christ.

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Now, one thing I know that we can learn from Latimer and all martyrs of the true

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Christian faith who died because they refused to remain silent or recant or repent from the true biblical gospel of the true scriptures of the true

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Christ is the willingness to suffer and die for this faith.

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Yes. I think this is something that is sorely lacking in the modern world.

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Please, don't misunderstand me. I know that there are martyrs out there right now in places like the

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Sudan and other places in the world where Christians are being persecuted. But as far as places like the

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United Kingdom and the United States, and I hope

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I'm not misunderstood about this either. I know that there are unhealthy people physically and elderly people that needed to be sheltered and have added precautions for safety in regard to the coronavirus.

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But the hypersensitivity and fear and terror that was rampant in the church over this that caused the church to shut down, and there are still churches shut down, not even speaking of those that were forced to shut down by their governments, but there are churches that were more than happy to shut down and more than happy to stay closed.

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There seems to be a lack of heroism, a lack of being diligent to have the gospel proclaimed and the church functioning, administering the ordinances and declaring the word and gathering for fellowship at all costs.

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And please, I understand that there, I'm repeating myself here, but there are legitimate reasons for caution, but I'm talking about to the extremes that the church went to.

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Am I making sense here, Roger? Absolutely, absolutely, Chris, and I think particularly in England, I think there was a cowardice and a dreadful failing of loyalty to God and his people in the way that you couldn't even enter a church for private prayer, let alone an act of worship or to hear the word of God for such a long period of time.

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And I think one of the things that this disease that has been among us for several months or over a year is that it makes you search your heart to see if you have any sign of a martyr spirit.

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You know, on the whole, ministry can be costly in small ways, but few of us know that our life could be at stake for proclaiming the gospel.

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And you wonder if we were under the oppression of somebody like the

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Anglican martyrs, how faithful would we be to the word? Some of them did recant for a time, but then reasserted their faith in the divine truth.

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But I think our church in our day has been rather softened by the comforts of civilization and the compromise with the taming down of the gospel and the culture that influences us so much.

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The differentiation between the church in general and our culture is really hard to discern.

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Yes, and it's sad that many, so many churches refused to push back at unrealistic demands of their governments and were seemingly more afraid of their governments than of God himself.

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But who knows what we will see in the future ahead that is born out of this whole experience that the globe has gone through.

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So tell us some more of these valuable lessons that we should retain and perpetuate throughout the future to our children and grandchildren about the legacy that this dear martyr has left for all of us.

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It is with both his preaching, his life, his death, that's strong, and it should be repeated continually, the absolute supremacy of scripture, its absolute necessity, and our dependence upon it.

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I think we can tend to take the gift of the word of God a little too lightly and therefore ungratefully.

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He was a man who lived his whole life proclaiming the word of God with great effort and great self -sacrifice and discomfort and constant enmity and opposition and for many years the threat of losing his life.

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He often thought that the time had come for him to be taken when indeed his life was continued.

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But I just think we need to have that tremendous value and passion for the gospel and as to how important it is in every waking moment of our life.

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The word of God, it is the means of his salvation to ourselves and to others.

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And I think that just as he, what really works in my mind, Chris, is his reference to the fact that it was

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Robin Hood that people love to hear about more than the word of God. And I think in our time we have our equivalent to Robin Hood.

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So many distractions from the pure word of God and the dangers that we encounter.

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Sometimes we're not conscious of them. At other times we veer away from that sort of stout and staunch advocacy of the word of God.

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And we see in our time the trimming of holy scripture, the avoiding of the severity of its message.

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We want it all to be sweetness and sentimental. And there is so much sweetness in scripture.

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It is gorgeous. But there are so many so -called hard sayings of Jesus and the prophets that we skip over and edit out of our awareness.

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There are the substitutions for scripture. All sorts of things like plays and films and television.

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The churches show in their main service without the proclamation of the word of God. We've downgraded the oratory of the ministry and we've swapped it for a shallow entertainment.

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And, you know, this is the Robin Hood factor in our time. When you turn on television and look at various televised services and you wonder, what on earth is that church doing?

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What benefit is it bringing to souls, especially for their eternal destiny?

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And, you know, it's all the other perceived preferences we have for the life of the church that really make it redundant and useless, or more than that, dangerous.

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We've been guided by prevalent prejudices in our time. Even Reformed churches can betray the

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Reformation and its heritage, its clear and marvelous and wonderful truth, and its tone.

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There are times, as Latimer shows us, when we are to rebuke.

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That's part of our ordination promise in the Anglican Church, and I know it's there in all other

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God -honoring ministries. But we are to reassure and comfort and be tender in our appeals, but we're also to rebuke.

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We rebuke our own hearts and the authority of God, and not because we're in any way perfect or pure, to rebuke the people too in their neglect of God and their duty to him and his commands.

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It's just that I feel the church has become wimpish and flaky, and I don't know where it's going to get its strength and muscle from.

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I mean, I know that's up to the Holy Spirit and God's determination, but one feels, as well as shame in oneself, shame concerning the church of God in its public guise at the moment, there's such a weakening of the testimony that we are meant to proclaim, and our responsibility comes to us,

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I think, in our time. You mentioned the 466 years later of Latimer's death,

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Chris. I think 466 years later, we have our responsibility, and that's to remove these distractions from the

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Word of God that seem to prevail in the church, to repent of and make amends for our departure from the

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Word. May we not be identical with the crowds that so shocked

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Latimer in their lack of appetite for the Word of God. There are so many things that we need

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Latimer -like ministers for today, and Marcus Sloan reminds me of that contemporary duty and obligation that we have.

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He says about Latimer, that light is now in our keeping.

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God grant that we may never allow its flame to go out. We have that trust from God to maintain that which

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Latimer and his martyred colleagues served so well and so devoutly, keeping that light burning.

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It's flickering at the moment from what I can see. I don't think it'll ever be extinguished.

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There will always be a remnant, but I think the church needs a truly good shake -up.

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Yeah, there's not even for most of us, not all of us, but most of us, there's not even a fear of death or a threat of death or physical harm that is looming over us that causes leaders in the church and preachers of the gospel to edit and dilute and present a message that is not either the true gospel at all, but if it contains the true gospel is surrounded by so much candy coating, it can barely be distinguished from that which is hiding it.

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There are ministers who are more concerned over numeric growth or maintaining their numeric size of their empires than they are of the souls of those people that fill their buildings, and they're more concerned over that than honoring and obeying

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God himself, which is infinitely even more important than that. I think so,

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Chris, yes. Yeah, I remember a really,

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I think, very insightful and brilliant quote by a pastor, a Presbyterian pastor, that I heard on television as a very new believer.

45:06

He was basically warning people to be on the lookout for false teachers, to be discerning about those that they watched on TV and listened to on the radio and whose books they read and so on.

45:22

But he said one of the signs of a false teacher is that they're more interested in yours than in you.

45:31

In other words, they're more interested in what you possess than they are over your never -dying soul.

45:39

And there are people who, the priorities they place above honoring

45:47

God and obeying God, and above the eternal security, as it were, of their listeners, it's a tragedy.

46:01

And I cannot help but think that many, if not most, if not all of these men that go to those lengths, they're not even regenerate.

46:11

I think that's the great problem of our time. I guess the regenerate have always been a minority within the visible church,

46:21

Chris. But you wonder if most of them aren't presenting some sort of parallel gospel, sugar -coated, as you say, alternative.

46:34

And there's this great emphasis on narrative in our time. You know, the Bible is full of stories.

46:40

You hear people quoting scripture and referring to scripture, but they never see it as propositional truth to be taken as so factual and for which we are to act upon with urgency.

46:54

It's sort of somehow tamed down and, you know, moderated to such an extent that it makes no impact on the listener.

47:05

And I wonder if even the majority of listeners have any capacity to hear anymore.

47:11

So much of religion is ornamental. I know it's counterculture in a lot of parts of America, but there are parts where going to church is part of the, you know, the

47:21

Sunday routine. But for many people, it's a time to connect with other businessmen and forge and agree a little contract that you're going to pursue in the weeks following.

47:32

There's so much, as Isaiah says, trampling of the courts of the Lord. But it's not sincere.

47:38

It's not devout. It's not earnest. And it's not with not only godly love, but godly fear.

47:46

Our generation has lost a genuine fear of God. And they mock the notions.

47:52

I'm surprised, you know, when people say you shouldn't preach predestination. It's going to disturb them.

47:59

I know of so many people who speak of it and ridicule it. And the same with the notion of, you know, eternal punishment and the reality of hell.

48:09

They mock the idea. They're at comfort, they're at ease in their minds, and their consciences are dead.

48:17

And we don't seem to be empowered and armored with the equipment to break through this terrible, deadly phase through which we're passing.

48:31

Yes. Every preacher, I believe, should contemplate and reflect on whether or not what they are preaching from their pulpits, if they were a disciple of Christ in the first century, or if they were one of the apostles, would that message have ever gotten them executed?

49:00

They should really seriously contemplate that. The demands of many

49:09

Christians, or professing Christians, I should say, that we not offend people.

49:18

That has to be a priority to them, that we not offend them.

49:24

And they will present to you a fictitious Jesus of greeting cards that would never dare hurt the feelings of anyone.

49:36

But that's not the Jesus that is portrayed in the scriptures.

49:43

He seemed to have a habit of thinning out the herd, as it were, whenever the crowds that followed him got very large.

49:53

And he would say, very bluntly, things that did indeed offend them.

50:00

And even in John chapter 6, many of those that followed him, followed him no more.

50:09

They turned away and followed him no more. That's true. And in fact, some of the things that Christ spoke boldly that are so offensive are things that we who are

50:24

Reformed are the only ones, theologically, that present those truths.

50:30

Like the fact that no one can come to Christ unless it is given to them by the

50:38

Father. And we are being told that we have no need to introduce our deep theological

50:49

Calvinistic doctrines into an evangelism presentation, because it's too deep and offensive.

51:00

But Jesus didn't think that way. No, no. I think we need to do it even more forcefully,

51:10

Chris. We're up against a powerful enemy, both the evil one himself and his minions on earth and the various ways in which they're contriving now in our time to crush the gospel.

51:24

There's a real hatred for God and a real hatred for the Lord Jesus Christ. And we don't seem to bear that in mind when we deliver the gospel to people.

51:34

We present it as some sort of soft option for prosperity and feeling good, something that ornaments our lives and benefits us materially and in temporal terms.

51:48

You know, ministers ought to be afraid of preaching on a Sunday because of a mob uprising.

51:53

You know, it happened to the great evangelists of the period of the awakening in England and America.

52:01

Mobs tried to bring Jesus' ministry to cessation.

52:07

And we've got the battle going on within and beyond the church constantly.

52:12

In looking at it from a human point of view, we're dangling on a thread, and we don't seem to be aware of the danger and the peril that we're in as believers.

52:23

I think the time is coming when we are going to be sorely tried for our faith if we adhere to it.

52:30

And I think for preachers, too, and I continually forget this, is that...

52:37

Oh, forgive me. I'm going offline here, Chris.

52:43

Well, actually, we have to go to a midway break right now, so you could regather your thoughts, and we'll come back to you.

52:50

If anybody has a question for Roger Salter, on Hugh Latimer, on any figure, great hero from the

53:00

English Reformation, or just a biblical question of any kind regarding salvation, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

53:08

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please be patient with us, as this is the longer than normal break in the middle of the show, because we have to accommodate

53:16

Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, because they have to air their own public service announcements and other local things in the middle of the show in order to appease the

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FCC and localize this program geographically to Lake City, Florida. And while they do that, we air our own globally heard commercials.

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Please take the time to write down as much of their information as you can, so that you can more frequently and successfully contact them, so that they will know that our listeners really care about the show and want them to continue sponsoring the show.

53:48

But send in your emails to chrisarnson at gmail .com with your questions for Roger Salter, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

53:55

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Hello, dear ones.

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Good to be back, Chris. I always enjoy our time. You, I have to tell you, one of the better interviewers out there and I've been doing this for 30, more than 30 years.

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Wow, that's some compliment. How much do I owe you for that? You don't have to owe me anything.

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We're in good shape. I'm glad you said it on the air so I don't have to brag about myself.

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Tell your friends and loved ones about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio airing live Monday through Friday 4 to 6 p .m.

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Eastern Time at ironsharpensironradio .com. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, give yourself unto reading.

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The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

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He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

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01:10:51

Before I return to Roger Salter and our topic today, we have some important announcements to make.

01:10:58

First of all, please mark your calendars to tune in tomorrow, Thursday, the 24th of June, as Dr.

01:11:07

Joe Moorcraft returns to the program to continue a series he's been conducting on the show about the heroes of the faith.

01:11:18

And also, on Friday, the 25th of June, we have

01:11:24

David Engelsma returning to the show for his third discussion on the

01:11:31

Belgic Confession. He has written a two -volume commentary on the Belgic Confession. And we will be addressing that for the third time this

01:11:38

Friday, June 25th, on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio. Also, folks, if you love the show and you do not want it to disappear from the airwaves, please go to IronSherpaDesignRadio .com,

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01:15:05

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01:15:11

I may be able to help you find a church. I have helped many people in our audience all over the globe find churches, sometimes within just a couple of minutes of their own houses, that they didn't even know these churches existed, or they passed by them every day and didn't even know that they were biblically faithful.

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So I may be able to help you too. No matter where you live on the earth, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:15:36

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put in the subject line, I need a church. That's I need a church in the subject line, whether it is a church where you want to join and call your home that you are in need of discovering, or a church that you want to visit while on vacation somewhere, or a church for family, friends, and loved ones who do not have biblically faithful churches, that they are where they are members.

01:16:04

So that's chrisarnson at gmail .com, I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address to send in questions to Roger Salter about Martyr Hugh Latimer, and anything regarding the martyrdom of great heroes of the faith, and also of anything regarding the gospel and the scriptures.

01:16:24

chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. We have an anonymous listener who says,

01:16:33

I have been battling back and forth with Roman Catholic friends who make the claim that Protestants throughout history have martyred just as many, if not more,

01:16:46

Catholics as Catholics have martyred Protestants. I find this hard to believe from anything that I have heard or read from church history from libel sources.

01:16:59

What is your knowledge on this subject? Are you there, Roger? I am,

01:17:05

Chris. I am. I'm pondering that. Of course, under the

01:17:10

Protestant regime in England, during the Reformation, there were some Catholic martyrdoms.

01:17:17

I think one of the things that we underestimate, when we think of these various martyrdoms on both sides, is that heresy deserved legally, was rewarded with capital punishment in practically every

01:17:34

European country of the time. It was considered to be a danger for society to preach something that was inaccurate and not a blessing to the soul.

01:17:47

This was a governing factor in a lot of the martyrdoms that occurred. I would be very surprised if the numbers on both sides were equivalent.

01:17:58

I doubt that very much. I don't know what sources we could go to to verify this.

01:18:07

I've never even heard of a comparable volume to Fox's Book of Martyrs on the

01:18:15

Catholic side. No. No. And of course, the Catholic apologists seek to discredit the

01:18:22

Fox's Book of Martyrs. Absolutely. Which is such a tragedy. And many lies about the

01:18:30

Reformers and the Reformation were perpetrated in those times.

01:18:36

A lot of the fact that people believe about our Reformers were deliberate falsehoods to try and halt the progress of the

01:18:45

Reformation. So people have to be careful what reports they read and give credence to, because that was a real conflict, a bitter conflict between two sides on the issue of the way of salvation.

01:19:03

I would seriously doubt that there were many

01:19:08

Catholic people martyred for their sake, because they were the dominant power in most of these countries.

01:19:19

We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who wants to know, I know that you are in an independent

01:19:27

Anglican church. Yes. St. Matthew's is not a part of the larger denomination for Anglicans or Episcopalians.

01:19:37

I was wondering if you believe a truly regenerate, born -again pastor has any legitimate reason to remain in the

01:19:46

Episcopal Church USA or in the Church of England? It depends how intrusive their bishop or their senior clergy may be.

01:19:59

If they can continue within their own patches of work with good conscience and a good effect,

01:20:06

I would say it is possible. I would say more possible in England perhaps than in America at the moment, but very difficult for anyone of a biblical or evangelical faith when they're thinking in terms of their denominational identity.

01:20:23

I would say that there are good men who for various reasons are not as directly affected by the deviance within their denomination.

01:20:39

It would be hard. I don't think they should be judged. If they feel there's no hindrance to proclaiming the truth of God, I think it was

01:20:50

John Stott who said that until we are prevented from preaching the gospel and adhering to the articles, we should, if we feel it's the right thing to do, stay on.

01:21:02

And I think that too was the conviction of Bishop Ryle, but then maybe neither man was able to see the extent to which the church has departed from the faith and substituted growth and horrid error for the gospel.

01:21:22

And I'm assuming you would agree that another factor that should be considered is if you as a congregation have to support an apostate institution with the gifts, the financial gifts provided by the congregation, if you have to use a portion of that to help keep

01:21:46

Satan's synagogue fueled, if you follow what I'm saying. Yes, yes.

01:21:54

I think there have been congregations, individual communities of Christians who have withheld their tithing to the main denomination.

01:22:05

They probably are disciplined by it, for it, but it is a very difficult issue to deal with.

01:22:12

Should I stay or abandon my people to this tremendous influence of apostasy?

01:22:20

Should I stay with them for as long as I can to nurture them through this crisis?

01:22:25

I think every man has to deal with his own conscience on this matter, but I know for myself, having worked in England with a lot of good men of different persuasion,

01:22:41

I became exhausted by the fact that the institution was too mixed to soldier on.

01:22:51

And I still feel that all the alternatives to, you know, what is the problem with malaise within Anglicanism are still not right for my own personal subscription and adherence.

01:23:07

I just don't think there's a strong enough commitment to Scripture as the Word of God, or a strong enough adhesion to the

01:23:17

Reformed heritage. It's our entitlement, and we ought to be able to live by it, preach by it, and I don't think that facility is there for us yet in any known alternative.

01:23:31

We have Mike in Monroe, New York. I would like to ask your distinguished guest, what is the ecclesiastical association between the

01:23:40

Anglican Church in the UK and the Anglican Church in the USA?

01:23:46

Also, anyone taking up the mantle of a Hugh Latimer in the UK today would probably be arrested for hate speech, homosexual marriage, and homosexual clergy would not be an issue that Hugh Latimer would shun.

01:24:02

I'm not understanding that. Of course he would shun it. I think he just worded that wrong.

01:24:10

Homosexual marriage and homosexual clergy would not be an issue that Hugh Latimer would shun.

01:24:18

I think in terms of criticism and rebuke... Yes, yeah, that must be what he means.

01:24:25

How shall Anglican ministers who may be inspired by a Hugh Latimer treat such evil?

01:24:31

Let's face it, homosexuality and transgenderism are the momentous issues of the times for the

01:24:39

Church of God. What do you say, Godspeed? Well, first of all, ecclesiastical association between the

01:24:46

Anglican Church in the UK and the Anglican Church in the USA, the issue though there is that there are more than several bodies in the

01:24:55

USA that identify as Anglican. Am I right? Yes. In the

01:25:01

US, Anglicanism is a term that is used for opposition to the

01:25:08

Episcopal Church and departure from it, continuing Anglicanism in various ways in line with its various traditions and confessions of faith in the past.

01:25:24

The link between England and the Episcopal Church is, of course, the deference that is extended towards the parent diocese of Canterbury and the

01:25:40

Archbishop of Canterbury. He has no influence or control over other dioceses or provinces, but the idea is that there is a certain regard for Canterbury as our mother church.

01:25:54

Anglicans are sufficiently independently minded to know that, whilst they may have a regard for church history, they don't necessarily have to yield to what is advocated by Canterbury now.

01:26:10

Most of us are very disappointed with the current Archbishop. We see a tremendous defection from the truth of God's word in this body.

01:26:23

Many of us would feel that we need to cast off its yoke and, as it were, plough in another field.

01:26:33

It's a denominational link. Anglicans in America are really saying that, for some reason or other, either as Anglo -Catholics or as Evangelicals, they have a dispute with the

01:26:48

Episcopal Church here. Now, lyrically, we're all Episcopalians because we're governed by bishops.

01:26:57

Now, his other question was, is anyone taking up the mantle of a Hugh Latimer in the UK? Well, obviously, it would be hard to make a comparison as noble and as courageous as many in the

01:27:11

UK may be in the ministry. They're not facing torture and execution. But can you name somebody,

01:27:20

I guess what he means is within the Church of England, who is making a very vocal stand against homosexuality and all these other abominations that have come into the

01:27:33

Church of England? I think this is purely my own opinion, which may not be reliable,

01:27:41

Chris. I don't think that there's anyone particularly vocal. There is a lot of antipathy to what is happening and the trends within the

01:27:52

Church. One or two people I would designate as perhaps Evangelical leaders have actually left in recent times.

01:28:02

I think there's not a Hugh Latimer that I can see on the scene, but I think there would be a lot who would be supportive of him in their own private thoughts and faith.

01:28:13

But so far, nobody has emerged, as it were, with the same tremendous influence and impact of this man.

01:28:21

He's a rarity, and it would be lovely if we did have, you know, a little cluster of men of that ilk, like the

01:28:29

Anglican Reformers. But I don't see it. I think Evangelicals in England, they're going to sort of want to please everybody and debate these issues, you know, ad infinitum, without coming to a definite and declared disagreement with the official

01:28:50

Church, its leadership. That's what I think, you know. I've always felt that England has a great capacity to compromise over every serious issue, and there's something about the

01:29:02

English character that just doesn't group, you know, a controversy with determination and come to a definite conclusion about things.

01:29:14

They're always hoping that somehow things can be glossed over, and they're very pacific in their approach.

01:29:21

You know, the idea of a, certainly within the Church, of a revolution is, you know, it would be a wonderful miracle if it occurred,

01:29:29

I think. But, you know, I think there's a drift, just a drift. Now, this is not the

01:29:35

UK, but in Sydney, Australia, you have what is known as the

01:29:40

Sydney Anglicans. Are they in any kind of official connection with the Church of England? Because they seem to be pretty outspoken against the abominations of homosexuality and many other abominations, even the

01:29:53

Romish beliefs and practices of the Oxford movement of the Anglo -Catholics and so on.

01:29:59

Are they officially in any way affiliated with the Church of England? In terms of the international communion, if we think of it as a denomination or an institution, they are through their link with Canterbury, but I think in many places that union is weakening as we realize there has to be some alternative.

01:30:24

And so, there are movements within the Church that are countering these influences.

01:30:31

They may well break with the Church in due course. There's a body called

01:30:37

GAFCON, I can never remember what the initials stand for, but they have, as a group of people, declared their loyalty to the

01:30:45

Word of God. I look at it, and I don't know if I'm being unnecessarily critical or severe here,

01:30:52

I do not see that commitment to Reformation thought that I think is indispensable and the very essence of Anglicanism.

01:31:01

We still don't find that clear and distinctive divide from the willingness of Anglicanism, from its ineffectiveness, from its weakness, from its softness.

01:31:14

That's, to my mind, the great tragedy of Anglicanism. It's just too diverse, too inclusive, and woolly -minded at the top.

01:31:26

Now, what do you have to say about the climate of Anglicanism in Africa? I've heard that some of the most biblically faithful, conservative, really holding the banner for the

01:31:42

Reformation are the clergy in Africa, and I don't know whether or not these groups, again, just like my question about the

01:31:53

Sydney Australian Anglicans, I don't know whether these groups have an official tie to the Church of England or not.

01:31:59

What is the situation, in your opinion, in Africa? They still do largely, Chris, because the

01:32:05

Anglican Church consists of 29 provinces throughout the world. They're all self -governing, self -determining, but again, they have this deference, this sentimental and historical link to Canterbury.

01:32:19

That is the one unitive factor in worldwide Anglicanism, and they may well disagree.

01:32:26

A lot of them are expressing their disagreement and dissatisfaction with Canterbury, and we just don't know what the outcome is going to be because there's a great state of flux within Anglicanism and discontent and restlessness, and I think there are some very good people and people who are loyal and faithful to the

01:32:48

Word of God, but I think there are a lot of people who are disappointed and half -hearted, and that's not going to win the day.

01:33:00

I mean, I know that, like Spurgeon, when you look out at your congregation, and I'm not talking about the one

01:33:08

I have or anyone in particular, but he would say, you can be cowed by the people you see and their expressions and what you know about them, and you think, can

01:33:18

I really declare this? Can I take the risk? And then, of course, you know, there is that strong temptation to veer away from the full offensiveness of the

01:33:35

Gospel because of the outcome, the results, the broken relationships, and the breakdown in support.

01:33:44

Every man is concerned that he can sustain his parish, and that's not only spiritually, but financially, and I think,

01:33:52

Chris, you hit on this when you were talking about all this materialism, earthbound philosophy that guides the churches in our time.

01:34:01

I had a friend who came to the South and saw all these great big churches, mega -churches, and said to me, look at their pillared

01:34:09

Babylons. You know, we worship the church and its success in visible terms, financial terms, and here a revival is adding another room to your church.

01:34:22

What about the souls that ought to be added that will actually encounter Christ between your walls?

01:34:28

That seems to me to be a low priority. It's competitive. How can

01:34:35

I put it? I can only use the word show -off. You know, look at my church. Look at yours.

01:34:40

How big is yours? How tiny is yours? It's a terrible, terrible way of estimating the work of God, who works sovereignly, and often in a way that, you know, cannot be detected.

01:34:55

We have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who asks,

01:35:01

I don't know if there is a way for you to gauge this, but what do you think poses a greater threat to Anglicanism at large?

01:35:13

Is it the Roman Catholic -like wing that has been described as the

01:35:21

Pussyites and the Tractarians and the Oxford Movement, or those on the far left of the equation that are promoting homosexuality, transgenderism, and even denying pillars of the faith, like the deity of Christ, the

01:35:40

Trinity, the bodily resurrection, and the substitutionary atonement of Christ?

01:35:45

And we'll actually have you answer that to the best of your ability, Roger, when we return from our final break.

01:35:53

If anybody else has another question that you'd like to ask before we run out of time, please send it in quickly because we are nearing the end of the program.

01:36:04

ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Roger Salter.

01:36:39

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Or visit linbrookbaptist .org. That's linbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back. Roger, as you may remember before the break,

01:50:00

Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania asked your opinion on what you believe to be the greatest threat to Anglicanism.

01:50:09

On the one wing, he mentioned the Anglo -Catholics with their heretical notion of the gospel and some idolatrous practices, etc.

01:50:20

And also on the other end of the spectrum, you have leftist apostasy that denies many of the pillars of the faith and supports things like abortion and homosexuality and transgenderism and so on.

01:50:37

I think it's the second wing, Chris. It's hard to sometimes employ appropriate definitions, but I think it's the zany liberal left that constitutes our greatest danger.

01:50:53

And I think it will be a fierce opposition, not simply a theological debate between Anglo -Catholics.

01:51:02

It will be something that I think will turn into a great danger.

01:51:08

And I'm going to say something that everybody will think is extreme, but I felt it for some time.

01:51:17

I think the first martyrdom of perhaps many will come from that side of the spectrum and perhaps not too far away.

01:51:29

It's seething with hatred for the gospel, and especially the gospel of the shed blood of Christ as being our only way to God and reconciliation with him.

01:51:45

That was the great personal theme of all of Latimer's preaching. You could say that, you know, with Romans 5 -1 backing him, therefore since we've been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our

01:52:00

Lord Jesus Christ. And he says, if I see the blood of Christ with the eye of my soul, that is true faith, that his blood was shed for me.

01:52:12

And I think that's the offense of the gospel, that pretenders of compassion and kindness and civilization are going to nail the

01:52:23

Christian church with in the near future, our bloodthirsty gospel, as they will call it.

01:52:30

Now, could not an argument be made that while what you're saying is true, that there can be even a more insidious danger in something like Anglican Catholicism, because you have a denial of the gospel in many cases, with a more respectable facade of religiosity and something that would be more seductive for conservatives to link arms with, if you follow me.

01:53:10

Creeping in less noticed, and keeping in mind that many of the

01:53:17

Anglican reformers who were martyrs died for opposing some of the very things that Anglo -Catholics support.

01:53:26

But anyway, if you could. Yes, I think there is that danger. I think it looms, but not as noticeably as the other aspect of the suggestion, you know, the left and the liberals.

01:53:47

I think the big danger is because both movements, Evangelicalism and Anglo -Catholicism, are conservative, that there is a drawing together.

01:53:59

And I think there's unity in the affirmation of theism and our

01:54:05

Trinitarian understanding of God. But I think there is, too, the peril of compromising because of this commonality in basic faith.

01:54:20

And that's what worries me about current attempts at the resurgence of historic

01:54:26

Anglicanism, that it's not going to be full -blooded, it's not going to be thoroughgoing.

01:54:33

We're always going to be bending over backwards, not to be offensive to others that we consider to be, you know, in a sense

01:54:43

Christian, but not as fully committed to the gospel of grace as we believe is necessary.

01:54:50

Well, I'd like you to have several uninterrupted minutes now to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today regarding lessons from Latimer, what this martyr still teaches us nearly 466 years after his execution for his faith.

01:55:08

I think his orthodoxy in the faith, as it's been observed, he wasn't by any means the greatest theologian of that era, but he was, as somebody has commented, a courageous voice of righteousness.

01:55:26

I think it's his courage, his commitment to truth, his love of the

01:55:31

Lord Jesus Christ, which was above every other passion that he possessed and exercised.

01:55:38

I think it is his utter devotion to the Lord and his word and his unhindered and fearless advocacy of it.

01:55:50

I think that we have a prayer for what is called Bible Sunday, I think, throughout all the denominations,

01:55:58

Chris, and I'm reading the 1662 version of it, which always makes me think of Latimer, and it reads like this, blessed

01:56:08

Lord who has caused all holy scriptures to be written for your learning, our church doesn't believe that uniformly anymore, glad that we may in such wise hear them, read them, mark, learn, and inwardly digest them by patience and comfort of thy holy word.

01:56:28

When I was in England, you usually, in terms of liturgy, read the gospel and say this is the gospel of Christ or the word of God.

01:56:37

There were parishes and dioceses who wanted to omit the word of God statement.

01:56:44

You know, it's spiritual, but it's not the word of God. That we may embrace and ever hold fast the blessed hope of everlasting life.

01:56:54

That is what Latimer did. He held fast, his life was taken from him, but eternal life was granted to him for that lifelong death -facing fealty to the word of God.

01:57:11

I wonder if we'll ever regain that in our generation and in the church of our time.

01:57:17

All things are possible to the Lord, but there does come a line, a margin over which, you know, the church can pass and be passed by.

01:57:29

And this is, I think this is what Latimer confronts us with. How much are we prepared to accept the cost of absolute loyalty to the word of God?

01:57:42

I shudder at that challenge, but the fact is we need that martyr spirit revived today.

01:57:51

The costliness, the risk to ourselves personally of preaching the word of God boldly and bluntly.

01:57:59

By bluntly, I don't mean unattractively, but I mean not to trim it, not to skim over the word and try to modify it and make it acceptable to people's preferences.

01:58:14

Well, Roger, as always, you've done a splendid job as my guest today. I'm looking forward to your return to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:58:22

I want to remind our listeners of how they can learn more about St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama.

01:58:30

You can go to stmanglican .weebly .com,

01:58:36

that's S -T -M standing for St. Matthew's, anglican .weebly

01:58:44

.com. You could also go to rogersalter .com.

01:58:52

Salter is spelled S -A -L -T -E -R. And folks, please continue to pray for my oldest brother,

01:59:01

John, 76 years old, now back in the hospital, not doing well, according to his daughter,

01:59:09

Regina. And I just also, about a minute ago, received a text from my other brother,

01:59:19

Bob, who is 61. He has a bladder tumor that is being removed on June 30th, so keep him in your prayers as well.

01:59:31

I want to thank all of you for listening, especially those who took the time to write. I hope that you join us tomorrow when

01:59:40

Joe Moorcraft will join us again on the program to discuss Heroes of the Faith, and David Engelsma on Friday to discuss the

01:59:48

Belgic Confession of Faith for the third time on the program. I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater