November 18, 2004

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from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded
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Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.
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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.
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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the
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United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is
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James White. Hey, good afternoon. Welcome to The Dividing Line.
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It is Thursday afternoon, the 18th of November, and we've got that hum again, don't we?
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Yes, we do. Oh, it just disappeared. But that's me doing that,
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I don't like hum. Get rid of my hum. Okay, it should be gone now. That's much better. At least it's, well, there's still a little something there.
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Yeah, a little beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. It must be alien. Turn off your backup lights. It must be alien message.
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Remember in Signs where the kid got up on top of the roof with the thing, that's what that is.
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Anyway. All right, we are back and it's funny,
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I had completely forgotten that there was something else I wanted to do on The Dividing Line last week, or last, on Tuesday, and we didn't do it then.
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Oh, by the way, before I forget it, just today, for those of you who have been, everybody keeps asking and asking and asking, yes, just today,
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Summer received a letter from the White House signed by President Bush about stem cell research, and so it did get through and she got her response.
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There was, there's nothing unusual about the response, just explained his position on it, which is pretty much what had been said in the debates and so on and so forth, and thanked her for her thoughtfulness and so on and so forth, so I just wanted to mention that in passing should
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I forget it, and of course she'll have her, we'll probably frame that or do whatever you do with presidential letters.
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Last time we were together, I mentioned the developments in Salt Lake City, and certainly it is a development to see a picture in the
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Deseret Morning News, evangelical preaches at Salt Lake Tabernacle, and there's
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Ravi Zacharias preaching from the pulpit of the
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Tabernacle, of course that's not where they have general conference anymore, which I found to be interesting. I bet you they almost could have filled up the meeting house across the street, but he is described as a
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Christian philosopher, Ravi Zacharias, dubbed the Evening Historic at the Tabernacle, and last time we were together,
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I was going to provide you with some of the bird's eye or personal witness views from some folks that were actually at the
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Tabernacle during the course of the presentation, and as I have been looking,
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I still have not yet received the email, well the voice,
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I haven't been able to listen, I would like to be able to listen, I would assume someone is going to make the audio available at some point in time, but have not yet found anything there whatsoever.
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And I want to read what a Christian said concerning what was said there, in regards to Ravi Zacharias, he said he began with a strong affirmation of the depravity of man, he said not many smiles on the faces of the
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LDS authorities seated just a few feet behind him, I would imagine not, when we have passed out tracks on the depravity of man, that has always been one of the least favorite subjects that we have ever approached with the
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Mormon people, he continued with the masterful job of presenting the person of Christ and his work on the cross, he repeatedly emphasized the sovereignty of God, he made one passing mention of the
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Trinity, no visible response I could detect from the Mormon authorities seated behind him to the right of the pulpit, all in all it was a powerful biblical presentation of the gospel, so that's what
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I would like to hear, someone at some point said that there was a reference, now here, a little later on, one of the speakers from the evangelical side unfortunately
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I can't now recall which one, made reference to Jesus' work on our behalf both in the garden and on the cross, a thinly veiled attempt to give credibility to the
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Mormon teaching concerning the role of Jesus' sweating blood in the garden, and the role that allegedly played in our redemption, since that's been specifically, oh you can order it from here, well there's, get a
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DVD, you have to get hold of the DVD, we'll have to track that one down and put that on the list of things to get, but anyway,
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I was, it was very interesting to note that this person who was there had to differentiate very strongly between the presentation made by Ravi Zacharias and those made by Greg Johnson and Richard Mao, now initially my correspondent differentiated between Mao, the president of Fuller Seminary, and someone from Mao who was, from Fuller who was speaking, but all of the things that I've read have put the words in Mao's mouth that this other person said, so they evidently, it was actually
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Richard Mao that actually addressed these particular issues, and it is he and Johnson's words that have caused the most difficulty for anyone who has been following this particular situation.
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He said, Evangelicals who spoke before him and after him were a major disappointment to me, they seemed to bend over backwards to give credibility to Mormonism.
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Greg Johnson made the incredible comment that both Christians and Mormons were guilty of embracing doctrines and beliefs without regard to their truthfulness, but simply in order to take a position opposite to that of the other camp.
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If Mormons say they believe that the sun rises in the west, then Evangelical Christians take a position that the sun rises in the east, he said that's not
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Johnson's specific analogy, but the idea was that he was in essence saying that we have taken these positions, and I found that fascinating.
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First of all, that's just not true. I mean, here is an excellent example, if Mr.
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Johnson, who lives up there in the Utah area, this is an excellent example of being too close to the issue, because the fact of the matter is, the theology that I present and I believe, and the presentations
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I make to Mormons, was believed, well, I used the 1689
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London Confession, there were no Mormons in 1689. Okay, I mean, how can the positions of the 1689 have been determined by Mormonism?
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I mean, that's just silly. Now, there may be people that, you know, maybe he's just talking about people that I likewise have criticized for their really bad presentations to Mormons.
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How many times, for how many years have I said over and over and over again,
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I would much rather have five people with me in Salt Lake City who knew what they believed, and who had to give a positive presentation of the
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Gospel, than 50 people who could rip and shred Joseph Smith, but could not make any positive presentation?
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I've said that over and over and over and over again. And so for someone to stand up there and talk as if they represent evangelicals, look, if Greg Johnson used to do that, then
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Greg Johnson needs to apologize for Greg Johnson. But Mr. Johnson, do not apologize for me when
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I didn't do it, and I've never done it, and don't give the impression to the Mormon people that I would accept you apologizing for me when
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I haven't done that. In point of fact, we have worked so hard to avoid doing that very kind of thing.
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How does a person stand up in front of people and claim to represent others in that way?
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That I cannot even begin to understand. So, excuse me, Mr. Johnson, but apologize for yourself.
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Do not apologize for me. I have a long history of ministry up there in Salt Lake City at the
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General Conference and in debates, and I have not done what you have now implicitly both accused and convicted me of doing before the
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Mormon people in the Tabernacle. What an amazing thing that is. That is one of the issues
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I have with this sort of ecumenical movement up in Utah, is it seems to lump everyone together.
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And yeah, there's bad stuff on Mormonism out there.
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I mean, if you want to go after some of the stuff Ed Decker's done or Dave Hunt's done, fine, go after that stuff, but don't say that the rest of us do the same thing.
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That's dishonest. It's inaccurate and dishonest. And then it says, and again, this writer did not believe this was
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Milo, the president of Fuller, but the professor at Fuller Theological Seminary was the most egregiously inappropriate speaker.
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He abjectly apologized to the Mormon community for the disgraceful way evangelicals have demonized Mormonism.
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We have misrepresented their doctrines and beliefs because we haven't taken the time to inquire about them. We have falsely accused them of aberrant teachings.
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I really didn't mean this, Professor, to apologize on my behalf to Mormons for finding error in their theology. Well, I agree completely, of course.
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Fuller Theological Seminary, from which I am a graduate, with a Master of Arts degree in Theology, 1989, was far to my left at the time that I did my studies there and has simply gone much farther out that direction ever since then.
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And certainly, I don't know how Richard Mao became an alleged expert on Mormonism, but I've never seen him doing the things that we've done in Salt Lake either.
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Be that as it may, that's when he then mentions here the idea of the garden and the cross.
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And so that kind of thing just drives me nuts. Drives me nuts.
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When someone would make a statement like that, that is specifically meant to try to earn some points with people who are following a false god and a false
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Christ and a false gospel, and you want them to know the truth and you want to speak the truth to them, you don't do that by compromising or by twisting your own beliefs.
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That just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. This really touches upon how people view the whole process of apologetics.
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What do I mean by that? Well, there are a lot of folks, and especially postmodernists, who look at this and go, wow, this is great.
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This is great. This is wonderful. What a wonderful thing is going on here that we have the opportunity of bringing evangelicals and Mormons together.
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Standing together. Isn't that the name of the ministry that Greg Johnson has? Standing together. Well, what are we standing on?
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A lot of folks are saying, well, you know, if we could just, it looks like there's some BYU professors, and you know what, they certainly take a better view of grace than Bruce R.
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McConkie did. Isn't that great? And then wouldn't it be good if, you know, you've got
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Clark Pinnock presenting open theism up there on BYU radio.
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Wouldn't it be better to get the Mormons to, maybe we can make them, get them one little step, so we move from God being an exalted man who lives on another planet and billions and billions of gods and spirit children and intelligences, and maybe we can get them to try theism with open theistic concepts.
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And then maybe in a couple of generations we can move them to something closer to monotheism and can start introducing them to the world and maybe get a few
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Mormons to believe God knows the future perfectly. And we might never get there because, you know what, we can't get rid of Clark Pinnock, he's an evangelical anyway, so that doesn't really matter.
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But maybe over a number of generations, see, we can move
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Mormonism a little bit closer to the truth. See?
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A Roman Catholic in Channel just said, Mormons are so small a sect, why spend so much time on these people? That's sort of funny.
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It's sad, but it's sort of funny. I mean, 12 million people is a lot of folks, and maybe this particular person doesn't live around a lot of Mormons, but those who do, obviously you want to be able to share with them.
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And, you know, we share with all false religions, small ones or large ones like Rome.
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And so we'll just continue doing so. So anyway, isn't that a good way of doing it?
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Isn't it good to just sort of move them along a little bit? Honestly, a lot of folks might say, yeah, that sounds pretty good, but the problem is,
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I don't see that in the New Testament. I don't see that in the
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New Testament at all. When Paul wrote to the Galatians, he could say to the very first generation of the church at Galatia that they had worshipped those which were by nature not gods.
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I don't find anywhere where he addresses the church of the
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Galatians where you are still worshipping those which are by nature not gods, but at least the gods you're worshipping now are not as bad as the gods you worshipped before.
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I don't see that. I don't see you've embraced a little bit better gospel than the false gospel you used to have, but it's still a false gospel, and so we're going to try to work on your kids to get you a better gospel.
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What happens is, the call to abandon falsehood and embrace truth is muted when people stand together and hold hands and say, you know what?
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We've really been mean to one another, and of course, it's always in this wonderfully nebulous way.
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Let's get specific. Could we be specific, maybe? Could I ask if Richard Mao or Greg Johnson are going to stand before the
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Mormon people and accuse me of misrepresenting the Mormons, then I'm going to demand the same thing of them that I demand of a
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Mormon that would say that. Document your allegation. Otherwise, retract it. Oh, he's the president of Fuller Seminary.
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I don't care. I don't care at all. I've never seen him outside the gates of the Mormon temple.
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I've never seen him witnessing the Mormon missionaries. You know, the ivory tower is a nice place, but it doesn't really translate into the sidewalk in Salt Lake City.
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So, when this kind of stuff's going on, the call to the radical break from idolatry that Mormonism is, and see, that's where the problem is.
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See, people are thinking, you Reform Baptists, you are so backwards.
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We can't use terms like idolatry anymore. That's not going to communicate to people anymore.
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And you know what all of that comes back to? A distrust of the Holy Spirit of God. That's what it comes back to.
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A distrust of the Holy Spirit of God. You see, this is why theology is important.
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If you don't have the right theology, if you don't believe that it's the work of the Spirit of God in the hearts of the elect that brings them to salvation, then you're going to, you can't trust the
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Holy Spirit of God to accomplish these things. Yeah, and I was thinking about that exact same thing.
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I was just pointed out, Mal has written a book, author of Calvinism in Las Vegas Airport. Well, I'm sorry, but this kind of approach is not consistent with Calvinism.
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It's not consistent with the call to cease idolatry. You cannot say, well, you know, could
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I give you maybe possibly a little different way of looking at God? I'm not saying that you are really necessarily completely wrong.
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No, that's not what Paul said. He said, you worship those which by nature were not gods.
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Now, folks, Mormonism believes that Elohim, the God of this planet, was once a man who lived on a planet like you and I.
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His first begotten spirit child after he was exalted to the status of a god is Jehovah, who is
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Jesus. One of his other spirit children is Lucifer, who is Satan. You and I are both his spirit children by multiple wives.
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And so you have God as an exalted man from another planet. Jesus Christ is his first begotten spirit child, and he's our spirit brother as well.
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The Holy Spirit is another one of his begotten children. And so, how can you say, well, you know, could we maybe have a maybe amend that a little bit?
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No, we're talking about the difference here between monotheism, the
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God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the Baals. That's really all we're dealing with here.
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It's just as clear. And where in the New Testament, where in the
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Bible, do we get the idea that the way to evangelize someone in that kind of a false religion is to try to get them to move just a little bit closer, maybe each generation?
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See, this is very much, you know, it's a very modern concept. It appeals to folks who really have a problem with the idea that, you know,
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God's truth is the truth, and we can't edit it, and we can't alter it, and he calls us to bow before it and accept it completely and totally, and we don't have a say in it.
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That's what people don't like. That's where all these books are coming from that are trying to present a
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Christianity that has no core. It has no message. It has no this is true, and that is not true.
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We've got to get rid of all that stuff, people seem to think. Why? Because from their perspective, conversion is a function of the sinner rather than the function of the
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Holy Spirit applying the gospel to the elect. So there's the whole point.
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There's where theology and having the right theology, a biblical theology, a God -centered theology, which quite honestly is just simply
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Reformed soteriology, that's what the Bible teaches. Here is where it ends up touching and determining how you do apologetics.
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Now, we haven't stood outside the temple and passed out tracts for quite some time, and we haven't done that, as we've explained before, because of the
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King James only radicals who have simply destroyed any opportunity whatsoever for speaking the gospel in any kind of way that would be any kind of context that is at all respectful, that is at all, you simply can't communicate anything out there.
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It just can't be done. These people are so hate -filled, they're so ignorant of Mormonism, so ignorant of the
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Bible, their behavior is so completely reprehensible that it's just nothing but a complete context of hatred.
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It's just horrible. So we haven't been there. We've heard it's been getting worse and worse each time around, and that's a complete shame, and we have addressed this many times before, and we've done programs on it, and we've done the right thing in condemning these people and asking that people do whatever they can to pull these people's support and to put pressure upon the churches that support them and all the rest of that kind of stuff.
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We've done what we could do, and so we haven't had the opportunity of being out there to speak to people for quite some time, but we did for 18 years on a consistent basis.
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For 18 years. I can guarantee you if we in point of fact were to go up there and do it again, we would hear over and over and over again about this kind of stuff, about, well, you know, you've just got your viewpoint, but there are other evangelicals, and they're much nicer than you, and they think that we should discuss our theology together, and you know, they're not out here just saying that we're wrong, et cetera, et cetera.
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They're nice. We'd hear about it. It would be used as a means of blunting the proclamation of the gospel.
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I guarantee it. Now, obviously, we are not the only people who are up there.
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There are people who live up there, who are involved in ministry up there on a regular basis, and many of them are not happy whatsoever with what is going on, because the fact that the clear proclamation of the gospel and a call to the
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LDS people to repent of their idolatry and to embrace the truth about who God is, is being made much more difficult by those people who seek to do this kind of little bit of one step at a time, one step at a time, one step at a time, that kind of situation.
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What's going to happen in the future? I don't know. I don't know. This fascination with open theism, I would love to hear
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Pinnock's presentation on open theism, though, of course, open theism is not even close to being biblical
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Christianity in the first place, and so that would only further...
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I mean, honestly, in Utah anymore, now you have to be prepared to deal with open theism so as to really answer the sharper
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LDS apologists. They are going to make the same kind of argumentation that so many other people do, and they're going to utilize, well, amongst your own folks, you've got the...
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How can you tell me I need to believe in a God who knows the future when Clark Pinnock or John Sanders or Gregory Boyd does not need to, you know, believe in these things and they're still a part of the evangelical theological...
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You're inconsistent! And, you know, see what you... It just simply continues to add all of these further hurdles that must be gotten over to deal with these things.
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And so, what will the future bring? I don't know. There was some discussion, I believe, toward the end of one of the articles here.
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Yeah. Oh, this was interesting. I forgot about this. Best -selling
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Christian musician Michael Card provided music for the service, performing piano and vocal music, and asking the audience to join in on the chorus of several numbers.
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Now, that must have been interesting. That must have been interesting, because the
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Mormons were probably sitting there going, um, um, we don't...
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We thank the old God for... Mr. Cart, you know, we thank the old God for a prophet. Probably don't have that one name.
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So, one pastor who concluded the service said several times he didn't want the meeting to end, noting he was excited to have met in the tabernacle and suggesting the meeting become an annual event.
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Then, with a big smile, he added, don't you all have a bigger place right across the street? Well, they do have a bigger place right across the street.
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It's much, much, much bigger. And who knows? Maybe something like that will take place.
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I don't know. I don't know. So, there's what's going on up in Salt Lake City, and it is odd.
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It is very odd. Next, really quickly, Tony Campolo, Speaking My Mind, The Radical Evangelical Prophet Tackles the
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Tough Issues Christians Are Afraid to Face. I don't know.
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Once I got rid of all the politics, and there was a lot of politics in this book, and if you'd like to know what a liberal, democrat, radical, evangelical prophet sounds like, well then, here you go.
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Skipping the political sections of the book, which were fairly large, there was all sorts of stuff in here that just,
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I don't know. Stuff about sexism and homosexuality.
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The homosexuality stuff comes directly from his wife, actually. The chapter on Islam was horrible.
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Oh, I want to send that chapter to Sam Shamoon, and well, then again, I may not want to because Sam, his blood pressure would boil over.
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The section on egalitarianism was, well, the whole book just simply throws out these arguments.
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It throws out these brief citations and quotations, and gives absolutely no context and no thought to the other side of those arguments.
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For example, I do need to find this. I apologize. I need to find this thing here.
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How does Rush do this? He goes, ah, here it is. That was pretty quick. What do you mean from his wife?
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She wrote it? No. His wife is the source of his views on that subject. I discussed this a little bit during one of the theology talks on the cruise, and lo and behold,
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Steve Camp, who knows him, was there and piped up and gave us some background that you wouldn't otherwise know, actually.
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So it's interesting. Page 39. Oh, by the way, give him some credit.
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He immediately dismissed the fact that he disavowed any connection with the subtitle of his book.
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One of those mean, nasty editors did it, which I was glad to find out, because the radical evangelical prophet, anyone who would call themselves that is probably a little bit goofy anyways, and so I'm glad he did not call himself that.