SRR #51 | Roman Catholics and The Veneration of Relics

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As opposed to blessed are you when you have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness? It is on we're taking the gloves off.
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It's time to battle Well, welcome back everybody to Semper Reformanda radio, my name is
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Tim and well My name is Tim Shaughnessy and I'm here with the other Tim Tim Kaufman today.
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We are going to be talking about something to do with Roman Catholicism and I believe the topic is
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The Roman Roman Catholics and relics. Is that right Tim? Yes We're going to talk about venerating relics and the
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Roman Catholic arguments for the antiquity of the practice and We'll talk about when it actually originated
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That's TR a CT planet .com coupon code BTWN all right, we are back and So Tim, I've noticed that you've been pretty active on the blog you are putting together
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I just want to draw attention to this real quickly. You're putting together blog articles from our
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Series on Mother Mary. Yes, that's correct when we prepare a
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Podcast we put together all of our show notes and when we're talking about something like the veneration of Mary under her different attributes and titles
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Like the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption and the Ark of the Covenant it's important to have all the historical data together and But when you're listening to a podcast, it's it's easy to digest the information
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But very difficult to recall it and so we thought we'd put together all the data that went into those
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Podcasts so people can look at the evidence for themselves I think that's very helpful because that way they can they can actually take your notes
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So these these articles have Tim Kaufman's notes not mine
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Whenever I record with Tim Kaufman, he's a he's you know It's he's the one who does does all the research and all the all the work
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So we're very grateful to have him on the podcast, but you're you're getting to look at his notes so I think it it's it's awesome because you can listen to the podcast and Follow along with him as he's going through his own notes and they are extensive they're detailed and And they're very thorough and it's it's a huge blessing
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So Tim, why don't we just jump into today's topic?
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I'm gonna give the floor to you you're the one who put together all these notes and I'm I have the benefit of Going through it with you, but I've not added anything to what you've what you've already put together
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So why don't we just get started? Okay. Well, I'm glad to be here.
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Thanks again for for arranging for this. I'm glad always happy to co -host with you and this is a
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This is a slightly different topic than the ones we have covered regarding Mary The but this has to do with the veneration of relics and as we noted when we were talking about the different attributes of Mary that There was no
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Real sense that Mary was sinless until you get to the end of the fourth century There's no real sense that Mary is the
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Ark of the New Covenant Until you get to the end of the fourth century There's no sense that Mary Mary's virginity her physical virginity was preserved in childbirth
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Until you get to the end of the fourth century and we find that Repeatedly in all these different doctrines and practices of Roman Catholicism that are alleged to be apostolic
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When you do the research and even Roman Catholics acknowledge this
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When you do the research you find that there's not a lot of really solid evidence for their beliefs until you get to the latter part of the fourth century and Typically what they do is they'll say if if you will just spot us those first three centuries we'll take it from there and prove that these doctrines and teachings must be apostolic and The purpose for these podcasts when we talk about these things is to equip our listeners
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So that they don't have to take the Roman Catholic arguments lying down. The fact is so many of the doctrines and practices and teachings of what we
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Now understand to be Roman Catholicism originated not with the Apostles but in the latter part of the fourth century and Relics and relic veneration is one of those and this one is a pretty interesting topic because Roman Catholics will say that the veneration of relics is one of the few
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That they can trace all the way back to the scriptures, which is an interesting confession on its on its face
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But when we evaluate the data, what we'll find is the actual practice of venerating relics originates in the latter part of the fourth century just like all the other practices like when we did our series on the sacrifice of the mass the
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Sacrifice of the mass originated in the latter part of the fourth century So I thought we'd start today let's let's just read a news article
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It's pretty old, but it's gonna give you an idea of what we're talking about this is from the
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Washington Post Back in 1999 and it's
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It's just a story. It's just a human interest story about a church in Largo, Maryland that was exposing the relics of some martyrs
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Who had died Oh around 200 AD and this is the article it says
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The remains the pebble -sized remains Of these martyrs were venerated at two recent evening services at st.
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Joseph Catholic Church in Largo, Maryland as As parishioners stood and sang when the
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Saints go marching in and the Knights of Columbus and full regalia Shouted the relics.
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I'm sorry saluted the relics on satin pillows were escorted into the church
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Tonight we give glory to God we are all called to be God's Saints the
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Reverend Michael King said as Deacon Leon Bichette read the Gospel of Luke and urged the worshipers to present your bodies as a living sacrifice small children saying
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Oh taste and see what the Lord has done and People lined up and kissed some of the relics
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Okay, so that's that's that's an article from 1999 called the
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Paris's relics include African Saints a human interest story in the religious section of The Washington Post back in 1999
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The reason I mentioned that is to Roman Catholics, this is actually not an unusual occurrence
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But to Protestants It looks weird and it sounds weird.
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So they take pieces of martyrs their bones and Carry them on satin pillows the
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Knights of Columbus salute the priest says we're giving glory to God and People line up to kiss these bones and Roman Catholics will say well the the veneration of relics is something that can be dated to apostolic times and earlier and So the
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Protestants are weird for not venerating relics. And so They they'll make the case that this is something that's normal It was taught at the earliest days of Christianity and Protestants have rebelled against apostolic teaching by not venerating relics
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So let's let's talk about relics The let me just ask you Tim. You were raised
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Roman Catholic. Did you ever? Venerate relics or go to a reliquary and and see all the different All the different Saints dead bones displayed no,
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I I never saw any dead bones or Anything like that, but you know,
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I didn't have time to read through all of your notes, but um, I'm wondering if I Was I was raised?
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as a Roman Catholic Up until about my teenage years and a lot of the stuff now that I'm learning more about it
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And I'm looking back and thinking. Oh, okay. So that's what that was. But um, we we had all this
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Statues and I remember a statue of Mother Mary being given to a family member and I remember thinking this was bizarre because he he was very excited about the family receiving this this statue of Mother Mary and I remember him kissing the statue and So I'm wondering if that falls into the same category as to what you're talking about, but I never saw any
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Any dead bones or anything like that? well, it's a it's it's in a similar category because Kissing objects as a sign of adoration and veneration is pretty standard in Roman Catholicism kissing the cross or kissing a relic of the cross or kissing a
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Relic of of a martyr. It's a it's pretty pretty standard stuff in Roman Catholicism I think that people were kissing things long before the latter part of the fourth century
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But the real question is when did we start digging up dead people and kissing them and that's what we're gonna get to But let's
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I thought we could start with what a relic is and the the basic Roman Catholic teaching on relics and the
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Roman Catholic practice of veneration and how it manifests so So we're gonna start with just a
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Latin term Relicus just means remains or remaining and so When somebody dies and their body decomposes all that remains is
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Just some bones teeth and possibly some hair. And so those are the remains or the relics of that person.
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So According to the Catholic Encyclopedia relic veneration is the veneration of some object notably part of the body or clothes
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Remaining as a memorial of a departed saint and it's very important to start with that because one it's the official
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Roman Catholic definition, but also because It's the remains of a departed saint and what we're gonna find as Roman Catholics try to justify modern relic veneration they're gonna appeal to some scripture passages where the clothing of a living person
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Was was held in high esteem and they're gonna say see that's relic veneration, but but relic means remains the official definition is the is the remaining is a memorial of a departed saint and so We're gonna get to Paul's handkerchief and Peter's shadow and say hey those guys weren't departed yet.
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So those don't qualify as remains but but what we want to get to is the official
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Roman Catholic teaching on the veneration of relics and the condemnation of people who reject
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Relic veneration and so for that you can always find some condemnations in the
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Council of Trent and in the 25th session of the Council of Trent is in the 16th century is that you find
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Affirmations of relic veneration that is the the pieces of bodies of martyrs dead people and other dead people and Also a condemnation of those who reject it and this is from the 25th session of the
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Council of Trent Says the holy bodies of holy martyrs and of others now living with Christ are to be venerated by the faithful through which
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Many benefits are bestowed by God on men Okay, so that's the affirmation is that you are to venerate the remains of dead people
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They who affirm that veneration and honor are not due to the relics of Saints or that these and other
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Sacred monuments are uselessly honored by the faithful and that the place is dedicated to the memories of the
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Saints are in vain Visited with the view of obtaining their aid Are wholly to be condemned as the church has already long since condemned and now condemns again, so basically
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They're they're basically saying hey if the people who are holy died and you need to take their the remains of their bodies and They they basically put parts of them in altars
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And so we're gonna find as we read a little bit more that Roman Catholic altars tend to have the relic of a saint somewhere embedded in the altar
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They'll be exposed on the altar sometimes in what's called a reliquary It'll it's just a little box or container that contains or displays the little piece of bone ship or something
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That is allegedly from a saint and it'll be exposed on the altar or when
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I was young. I visited a relic room in Still River, Massachusetts, and it was a room about about 20 by 20 20 feet by 20 feet and it's just wall -to -wall floor to ceiling
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Relics everywhere and they're just little cases with a relic of a certain saint
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Or allegedly a saint a little piece of their bone is in a tiny little case and it was just wall -to -wall floor to ceiling
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And that's a that's a lot of dead. There's a lot of bones Little pieces,
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I mean it could be anything could be a tooth a fingernail An eyelash, you know,
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I don't know anything that was related to a saint This is Let me ask you a quick question it sounds to me like they break up the body and then, you know ship it out to different parishes and ship it out to Is that right?
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They? You might get a toe when the guys down the street might get a finger and Wow, that's
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I didn't know that they did that. I I thought they would have tried to I know very little about this this particular subject dealing with Roman Catholicism But I thought that they would have tried to keep the bodies intact, but I guess
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I guess not well, some of them they do and you'll find some some some churches the bodies of dead saints are are actually displayed in state under the altar and I have visited churches that actually have a body of a dead person under the altar and of course, it's been
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Preserved in some way they say they call them the incorruptibles. They say wow, they're so holy their body didn't even corrupt in the grave and yet Yeah, when you look at it really closely, there's right, you know, they it's they're obviously not a very good shape
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But you know now now that I'm just listening to you now that now that I'm thinking about it.
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I do remember one time seeing a fabric or a cloth and As a kid and and I just remember being told that this was something that was
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Belonging that it was it was a article of clothing that belonged to somebody and I have no idea who it was
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But I do remember I do remember People making a big deal about it. I don't remember if I saw anybody kissing it.
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Well, that's that's a good that's a good segue into our next section Which is to talk about the different classes of relics because what you just described
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I think is probably a third class relic or a second class relic and a first -class relic is actually a part of the
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Saints body and Let me tell you that if a church were to receive the big toe of a saint
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It would be considered a huge honor because a much smaller part of a saint you'd get
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I mean just a tiny fragment of a bone chip really It'd be unusual to get a hand for example or a thumb
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You'd get some very so a much much smaller part but say a
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First class relic is a part of the Saints body and this is is placed in an altar stone or placed in a relic display case a second class relic is what you were just describing is a piece of the
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Saints clothing or something used by the Saint and Then a third class object is an object which has been touched to a first -class relic.
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So They might actually have something Maybe I it's it's difficult to categorize some of these like a chair that was used by a saint might be a third class relic or possibly a
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Second class because it was used by the Saint but also was touched by the Saint So what it just depends and I've seen them categorized in different ways, but there's three basic Categories and I imagine that it probably have pretty blurry lines between some of these but a first class is for sure a piece of a body of a saint and And and what what we what we do to them not what we do
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What Roman Catholics do is what was described in the news article that we read at the beginning of the podcast
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Which is they'll get in a line. They'll go forward and pay some respect to this Saint but it's it's a respect.
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That's not the normal Respect that's paid to the dead. For example, like we
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You know, we don't sneak into a mortuary at night and put bodies in funny Funny positions and take pictures of them and send them out on Facebook That's illegal and don't do that And so in some way we all show some respect to the dead and we are careful at their funerals
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We don't say terrible things about them But that's not relic veneration. That's just respecting
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The dead and and it's not unusual to do that It's not unusual to care for a dead body respectfully until it's placed in the grave
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What we'll find as we go through this discussion on relics is that Roman Catholics will find cases in the scripture where a dead person's body was treated respectfully and they'll say see that's relic veneration, but But what's missing is anybody lining up to kiss the dead body, you know so so what we read at the beginning of the article was this people at the
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Roman Catholic Church were lining up to kiss the piece of bone ostensibly came from this Saint from the 2nd and 3rd century
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Allegedly a martyr So so that leads us to the ways that relics are venerated.
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We've already discussed one which is kissing Another way is to incense them and You were raised because your family
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Was so interested in that Latin mass and the tridentine mass my guess is you probably attended
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Church services where the priest would get out Something called a thurible With it's connected to a chain and it would have incense burning inside it and you'd swing it toward the altar
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Yes, that would release some smoke. And so you'd have this incense that's released at the altar, but one of the ways that Relics are venerated is by incensing them
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And this is I'm reading from the Roman Catholic General Instructions of the Roman Missal which basically is how to conduct a mass and It says that relics of the
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Saints exposed for public veneration are incensed with two swings of the thurible There's some things get three swings
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But that is they they swing the chain toward it once and twice and it releases the smoke But sometimes the altar
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I think it's three swings, but the relics get two swings of the thurible So that's one way that relics are venerated in the
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Roman Catholic Church another way is burning candles before them and You could go to various Roman Catholic web pages and I just found an example where you know
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A web page says it's a pious custom to keep lamps Burning before altars and images of Saints and before their relics
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So they light candles or they burn an oil lamp or something in order to venerate a relic another way is to Either bow or to make a profound bow
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A bow is you just lean forward a profound bow is when you make a bow all the way down to your waist but This is from the ceremonial for the use of the
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Catholic churches in the United States of America sixth edition This was actually from 1890 But it's basically about high mass and high mass is the highest most formal mass that the
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Roman Catholic priest conducts And it says if the relic of the saint whose festival is celebrated is placed in the middle of the altar
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The celebrant that is the priest incenses it with two swings Bowing to it before the altar so he
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Incenses it and then he bows down to it and then in another section on the high mass
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It says if the priest passes before the high altar Where there is a relic of a saint whose feast is celebrated or some other remarkable relic
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He makes a low bow. That is a profound bow bowing very very low. So so And then finally we've talked about kissing, but we'll also talk about kneeling and this is from another
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Catholic apologetic page When venerating a relic it is most appropriate to show honor and respect to the saint by performing a simple exterior gesture
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Some venerating a saint's relics can kiss or touch the glass case that houses the relic
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Other acceptable gestures include signing oneself with the sign of the cross or kneeling in front of the relic in prayer.
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Okay, so So this is how this is how a relic is venerated in the
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Roman Catholic Church Incense candles bowing kneeling and kissing okay, or you're making the sign of the cross or whatever, but the but you understand that these are
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The the bowing and the kneeling is what we typically associate with adoration Incense and candles.
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We just don't do anymore the kissing not
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I Know that we're supposed to greet one another with a holy kiss, but I don't think the scriptures could you know? Tell us to kiss a dead person.
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Although there's a story of a prophet in the Old Testament who brought a boy back to life by Putting his hands to his hands in his mouth to his mouth, but that's certainly an exceptional case and it
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It's not it doesn't prove that we should kiss relics but in any case the the way
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Roman Catholics would Would venerate a piece of a dead person is to incense it or burn candles in front of it or bow or kneel or kiss that relic now and that that's it's important to understand that part of it because this is what they mean by veneration and What I what
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I want to read now is that this is from the Catholic Encyclopedia on relics and And this is the point where they say hey a lot of other stuff it's hard for us to trace back that far but But this one we can trace all the way back to the scriptures and there's two interesting points
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I want to make about the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia's entry on relics
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First it says few points of faith can be more satisfactorily traced back to the earliest ages of Christianity than the veneration of relics
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From the Catholic standpoint there was no extravagance or abuse in this cult as It was recommended and indeed taken for granted by writers like Augustine Ambrose Jerome Gregory of Nysa Chrysostom Gregory of Nazianzen and by all the other great doctors without exception
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So what I want to first point out is how interesting it is That they say oh yes, this can be traced all the way back to the earliest days of Christianity and Here's all these people that endorse it
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Well, every person that they listed is from the latter part of the fourth century. That's interesting Now we'll get into some of the evidence that they provide but There's another section in this entry on relics that I thought was very interesting
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Is that they say it's not easy to figure out when this started But they give an example and they say
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Neither is it quite easy to determine the period at which the practice of venerating minute fragments of bone or cloth small parcels of dust etc first became common we can only say that it was widespread early in the fourth century and That dated inscriptions upon blocks of stone which were probably altar slabs
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Afford evidence upon the point which is quite conclusive. Okay, so they're saying We can at least show the early in the fourth century.
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This was widespread but what's interesting is that the example they give as Evidence that this was widespread in the early fourth century is from a slab of stone that's dated to 359
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AD That's the latter part of the fourth century. That's not early fourth century that's the latter part of the fourth century and and what we'll find is we proceed through the means of veneration
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That they don't even have evidence of the means of veneration much less just the veneration itself and by means of veneration
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I mean the kissing and the kneeling and the in the bowing of the incense And we'll get to that in just a second but but this is something that Roman Catholics think goes all the way back to the
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Apostles and earlier and They will rest on that and say see this this is just evidence that you need to be
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Roman Catholic and we're gonna look at some people a little bit later in the podcast look at the testimony of some people who converted to Roman Catholicism in Part because they finally accepted that Wow relic veneration of the early church looks a lot like Roman Catholicism So I guess
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I'll just have to become Roman Catholic and this is again It's the purpose of our podcasts on these to show that you don't have to take those arguments lying down The best
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Roman Catholicism to do is latter part of the fourth century and we're gonna prove that today on relics. Does that make sense?
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Yeah, that was very good. Just one quick clarification when and this is just In case people are unfamiliar with Roman Catholicism when you say when you're talking about the
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Saints the the Catholics have a different view of Saints than the
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Protestants the The Protestants believe that every believer is ultimately a saint but the
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Catholics would would basically limit sainthood to somebody who is very special who
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Lived in an exemplary life and somehow Through their through their life earned sainthood, so We're not just talking about anybody who died in the faith.
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We're talking about People who maybe did something that was exemplary during their lifehood and Yes That's correct.
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It's a different meaning of Saint We you know We address each other as Saints because the scriptures refer to living believers as Saints like the
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Saints of Ephesus for example but in Roman Catholicism the Saint is someone who has departed and Then after examination is determined to have been exemplary and Therefore gets elevated to the status of sainthood or as canonized as a saint and that's something that's done
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By by the by the Pope. So so yeah, that's that's when we're talking about that They have their they're venerating the relic of a saint.
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They're talking about someone that has been declared to be a saint by Roman Catholicism Okay. Yeah Yeah, let's okay
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So so what I want to do is typically as I mentioned earlier a
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Roman Catholic will try to prove the antiquity of Relic veneration by showing that a long time ago people respected the bodies of the dead and And you can have to do a lot better than that if you're going to convince me
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That relic veneration goes back to the age of the Apostles and earlier what what's missing in the early evidence is
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People The priests incensing are there being any priests who are incensing relics burning candles before relics?
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kissing relics bowing down to relics and kneeling to relics and and I want to just read the historical evidence that shows that Just those things alone
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Are our novelties? Let's just first start with incense. I Was uh,
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I was reading the the story of a journalist named Wally's Shoebat And it's something people can look him up online, but he talked about how he converted to Roman Catholicism Because he did some research and found that the earliest churches from the first century were using incense
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Which is what Roman Catholics do today, but he must not have done enough research because Even the
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Catholic Encyclopedia admits they find no evidence of the use of incense until the 5th century
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This is the this is the entry on incense. It says When exactly incense was introduced into the religious services of the church is not easy to say during the first four centuries
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There's no evidence for its use the liturgies of Saints James and Mark Which in their present form are not older than the 5th century refer to its use at the sacred mysteries so that's the that's the
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Catholic Encyclopedia saying We can't find any evidence of anybody using incense in the first four centuries of Christianity So we can rule out that the early church was incensing
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Relics they weren't venerating relics by incensing them So let's go to burning candles
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Lactantius and we've talked about Lactantius before good guy Who lived I think he he lived before the
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Council of Nicaea and I think died the year of the Council of Nicaea and in his divine institutes book 6 chapter 2 he ridicules the
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Romans who burn candles to their gods and Says we have no need to do that for our
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God does not need candles. He said God has no need of their candles who has himself given so clear and bright a light for the use of man
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It is that man therefore to be brought to be thought in his senses who presents the light of candles and torches and as an
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Offering to him who's the author and giver of light So the light he requires from us is of another kind and that indeed not accompanied by smoke
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I mean the light of the mind so So so in in one stroke Lactantius rules out incense and candles saying hey, and you don't find evidence of incense and candles being used in Christian worship until you get to the latter part of the fourth century and we have
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Jerome in his letter to Marcella in 385 AD talking about He had been given a gift of wax candles and he says that reminds us that we should look for the bridegrooms coming with our lights burning and then in In 396 or later.
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He was criticized there was a man named vigilante is who had criticized the use of wax candles to honor the martyrs and Jerome defended that so his defense of that was in 404
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AD, but the criticism of it was from about 396 AD So so here we have that.
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Okay, so we can rule out candles and incense, right? Well, let's uh, the first recorded instance instance of kissing a relic is from a letter letter 46 from Jerome in 386
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AD and he says everywhere we venerate the tombs of the martyrs we apply their holy ashes to our eyes
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We even touch them if we may with our lips Then we shall touch with our lips the word of the cross and rise in prayer and so here this is a letter from the latter part of the fourth century showing that they were venerating
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The relics of martyrs by kissing them and also venerating the word of the cross by kneeling before it and kissing it
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But but again, this is this is the first recorded instance. So we have We have kissing relics.
36:44
We don't find it to the latter part of the fourth century incense We can't even find to the fifth wax candles. We don't find used in Christian worship or to honor martyrs until you get to the latter part of the fourth century and and then the first recorded evidence we have for bowing to relics is
37:02
Cyril of Alexandria and he lived from 376 to 444
37:08
AD and this is the first case we have of a description of bowing down to the relics
37:14
He says we by no means consider the holy martyrs to be gods nor are we want to bow down before them adoringly
37:20
But only relatively and reverentially so he's saying yes, we do bow down to them But we're only bowing down to them with reverence and that's you know, let's let's let's just be clear
37:31
You're not supposed to bow down to anything You know, yeah, right the commandment in the from the
37:37
Lord is not don't bow down to something unless you're just showing some relative
37:46
Respect he says don't bow down to images at all and here you have the latter part of the fourth century and early part of the fifth is they're bowing down to relics and And you remember what we said earlier about how in the high mass the relic is placed on the altar and incensed
38:07
Yeah, they get two swings, right and and in one of these One of the examples we gave people would kneel before the relic that's exposed on the altar
38:18
Well, if you read the Council of Nicaea Canon Canon 20 This is from 325
38:24
AD It says that kneeling was forbidden on Sundays and all on Sundays all year and every day from Passover to to Pentecost at the
38:41
Council of Nicaea now, that's interesting because here you have if there was a day for Saints for Christians to get together and Venerate a relic by kneeling to it.
38:51
It would typically be on a Sunday When the priest is supposed to be conducting the sacrifice of the mass and exposing the relics on the altar for people to venerate, right?
38:59
I mean, this is what Roman Catholics wants to believe was happening in the early church and yet the Council of Nicaea the first ecumenical council of the church
39:09
Canon 20 forbids kneeling on Sundays, so How can you possibly say that?
39:18
kneeling before relics bowing to relics kissing relics burning incense and candle before relics is
39:24
Apostolic when all the evidence we have is that those practices were either forbidden in the in the early church or we just simply can't find any evidence that it was ever adopted until the latter part of the 4th century and it's a
39:38
I think it's fascinating to hear the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia say hey
39:44
This is one of the few where we have evidence for it and yet the very means that they would prescribe for venerating relic
39:51
Were things that you just can't find any proof for in fact, sometimes we're explicitly forbidden in the early church
39:57
So one thing we can say is as we go through the history of relics
40:02
We're gonna look at them and say it's not enough to show That the
40:07
Israelites carried the body of Joseph back to Hebron You're gonna have to show that they burn incense and candles to it and bowed and kneeled and kissed it
40:15
You just don't find that so what we'll do next now that we've we can rule out the means of veneration
40:21
Because even the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges they just can't find evidence for for doing that We're gonna move on to the actual treatment of dead bodies
40:32
Don't going all the way back to to Jacob and Joseph's bones in the Old Testament But but do you see oh, do you understand where we're going though?
40:41
Is that if you can't find evidence of incense in the early church and you do find the prohibition of kneeling on Sundays You can be guaranteed that they were not offering incense and kneeling before relics
40:54
And the Sunday worship service in the early church, this is a novelty from the latter part of the fourth century
40:59
It's not apostolic at all. Yeah, and who was it that you said that was it like Tantius?
41:05
even identified that Some of that was was pagan worship Yes, exactly in fact when the
41:13
Vigilantius who objected to the veneration of relics in the latter part of the fourth century said that you're just importing pagan practices into the church
41:22
This is how you know the people who were believers back then who rejected the kneeling before images and the kneeling before burning candles before martyrs and kneeling before and kissing their their relics they were
41:39
They recognized that something was happening and pagan practices were being imported into the church and a lot of these pagan practices
41:45
Were imported in the latter part of the fourth century Yeah, no, I'm with you, okay, okay, so so let's talk about Joseph's bones because Joseph's bones were and so were
41:58
Jacob's Jacob's and Joseph's bones according to the scriptures were carried back to to Israel after the
42:05
Israelites left Egypt and this is from Acts 7 15 to 16 it says so Jacob went down into Egypt and died he and our fathers and were carried over into Sechem and laid in a sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money from the sons of Amor the father of Sechem and that's
42:28
Again, Acts 7 15 to 16 and Joshua 24 32 is his and the bones of Joseph Which the children of Israel brought up out of Egypt They buried in such him in a parcel of ground which
42:39
Jacob bought of the sons of Ham or the father of Sechem for 100 pieces of silver Okay, so these are two cases where in scripture we see that the bones were carried back to to Israel to Sechem the land of Abraham and the reason that this matters is because in Jerome's letter 109
43:02
He was arguing against vigilante us vigilante us was criticizing the veneration of relics
43:07
And he reminded people that in the scriptures the dead a dead body
43:12
Defiles the people that touch it. So we ought not be kissing it Touching our ashes their ashes to our eyes and that sort of thing.
43:20
And so Jerome says hey, wait a second They carried the bones of Jacob and Joseph back to Israel Were they defiled is so so Jerome in his classic style is trying to prove it hey, you can't criticize us kissing relics and Bowing before them because after all the
43:38
Hebrews brought Jacob and Joseph's bones back to Israel When they left captivity, but the question is the question is what did the
43:47
Israelites do with Jacob's and Joseph's bones? and according to the scripture they buried them and and this was based on a promise a promise was made that they would
43:58
Jacob wanted his bones buried in the in in Israel and it was a promise that was made and and so they kept that promise and they carried his bones and Joseph's bones back to Israel and Buried them so that they didn't burn candles.
44:14
They didn't burn incense or kneel before them or kiss them They simply carried them back and put them in the ground put them in a sepulchre.
44:23
That's it. That's not relic veneration this is what I meant when I said earlier that oftentimes
44:29
Roman Catholics will take respect for the dead or respect for a promise and Read relic veneration into it.
44:35
So so you can't look at Jacob's and Joseph's bones and say Oh early relic veneration
44:42
So let's move to the next one, which is Elisha's bones and you know, the story where a man was being buried and And I'll go ahead and read the passages from second
44:53
Kings 13 21 Says and it came to pass as they were burying a man that behold they spied a band of men and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha When the man was let down and touched the bones of Elisha he revived and stood upon his feet so so Roman Catholics look at that say even in the
45:11
Old Testament people recognized that the bones of the dead had power and therefore relic veneration
45:22
So hey The scriptures are clear, you know A man was touched the bones of Elijah and was revived and stood upon his feet a dead man was brought back to life
45:32
But the question I have is what had they done with Elisha? What did the Israelites do with Elisha's bones?
45:38
Did they put them on display? Did they line up and kiss them? Did they burn incense to him or put candles there or kneel before them?
45:45
No, it says right there in the scripture He'd already been buried They buried Elisha's bones.
45:52
They did not expose them for veneration So no, you can't look at Elisha's bones and say look relic veneration
46:00
So the next one that Roman Catholics use is and I read this on a web page
46:07
Saying this is a Roman Catholic apologetics ministry saying The veneration of relics in the
46:13
Catholic Church is an ancient tradition that dates back all the way to the New Testament We can find its origins in the life of Jesus Christ.
46:21
Think of the woman who touched Jesus cloak and was healed okay, so Here's the passage mark 5 27 28 when she had heard of Jesus She came in the press behind and touched his garment for she said if I might touch but his clothes
46:38
I shall be whole okay, so no, I We're not gonna grant this
46:45
Roman Catholics Jesus garment is not a relic because relic means his remains and Jesus was not dead so no his
46:54
His garment his clothing does not count as his remains it would only count if they kept it and venerated it like they said
47:02
Wow, Jesus came and saved us from our sins rose from the dead ascended to his father's right hand and Now we're going to venerate the hem of his garment because a woman touched it
47:12
There's no that never happened and and the garment doesn't count as remains unless it's from a
47:19
Departed person and what's interesting is that when she was found out she did not bow down to the garments
47:25
But came and fell down before him. That's what mark 533 said So no, you don't get the kneeling before the garment.
47:30
You don't get the kissing the garment You get a woman coming and bowing down before Christ.
47:36
So again You look at that and you say as much as Roman Catholics want to get relic veneration out of a woman touching the hem of Jesus garment
47:46
I'm sorry, you're gonna have to do better than that So, uh, so let's move to Stephen's body.
47:52
Okay, so and this one matters to us because again When Jerome was arguing against vigilante is and vigilante is was criticizing relic veneration
48:04
Jerome invokes the body of Stephen He invokes the example.
48:09
He says once more. I ask are the relics of the martyrs unclean if so Why did the
48:15
Apostles allow themselves to walk in that funeral procession before the body the unclean body of Stephen Why did they make?
48:23
Great lamentation over him that their grief might be turned into our joy Okay This is a funeral
48:30
Okay, it's Acts chapter 2 The chapter chapter 8 verse 2 and devout men carried
48:35
Stephen to his burial and made great lamentation over him I'm sorry. This is not relic veneration
48:41
What were they doing with Stephen's body? They were gonna bury it. This is a funeral see how
48:48
Roman Catholics take simple Decent respect for the dead and turn it into They want you to turn this into burning candles offering incense kneeling bowing kissing dead people's bones and they simply collected
49:02
Stephen's body and Lamented the fact that this saint had been killed for his faith and they buried him.
49:10
That's it That's not relic veneration, right? So, um, okay. So now it's important I want to keep coming back to that what they did with Elisha's bones of what they did with Joseph's and Jacob's bones of what
49:20
They did with Stephen's body because it's gonna be very very important when we get into some of the early church fathers and their writings on the martyrs because What Roman Catholics interpret as relic veneration is actually more of the same
49:35
It's just a burial But before we do that, I want to say that if I ever get a chance
49:41
I don't I don't go to Roman Catholic churches and I don't go to Roman Catholic mass and I don't go to their relic rooms but if there ever is a reliquary that is displaying the shadow of Peter I want to go and see
49:54
Peter's shadow because that's an example that Roman Catholics use of Proof of veneration of relics and the significance of relics and this is from the
50:05
Catechism of the Council of Trent It says if the clothes Kerchiefs and even the very shadows of the
50:12
Saints while yet on earth banished disease and restored health and vigor Who will have the hardihood to deny that God can still work the same wonders with holy ashes?
50:23
The bones and other relics of his Saints who are in glory Well, it's a it's a ridiculous question the first of all,
50:31
I want to say that I I Do want to see the relic room that's displaying
50:37
Peter's shadow I don't know if that would count as a second -class or a third -class relic because it's not something he used and it's but it
50:46
And it's not really something that touched him and yet it's invoked by the Catechism of the Council of Trent as if it was proof that it's okay to bow down and offer incense to bones, but From Acts 15 5 15 it says in so much as they brought forth the sick into the streets and laid them on the beds and couches
51:04
That at the at the least that at least the shadow of Peter passing might overshadow some of them
51:10
So some of them thought that if Peter's shadow were to pass over them They would be healed in Acts 19 11 to 12 says and God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul so that from his body were brought to the sick handkerchiefs and aprons and The diseases departed from them and the evil spirits went out of them.
51:27
So this is Roman Catholics are using this as evidence of Federation of relics, but again, none of these qualify as remains
51:35
Peter and Paul had not left yet We're not arguing about what
51:41
God can and cannot do nobody ever said God can't heal people with Paul's Apron or handkerchief the scriptures.
51:51
In fact simply tell us that God actually used Paul's handkerchiefs and aprons
51:58
To heal people from their diseases That's a true statement Nobody is saying
52:04
God can't do this. The question is when did Roman Catholics start doing this? When did
52:09
Roman Catholics start venerating the remains of dead people? When did they start digging up bodies and kissing them instead of burying them and what we find is we go through the history on this there is an unbroken record of burying dead people until you get to the latter part of the fourth century and Then they start digging them back up again, and that's where relic veneration originates.
52:35
So Yeah, I had a question Can you can you go back to the shadow of Peter and explain?
52:45
I'm not sure. I understand that because How would? So you said you said if you had the opportunity to see the shadow of Peter you that you would you would take that opportunity
52:55
What what are we talking about? Because I don't I don't know how you can have a shadow without a body
53:02
I suppose it is it like suppose? Oh, okay Got Paul's handkerchief in Peter's shadow on display and a reliquary come and see it
53:16
I'd like to see that because you can't have a shadow without a body, but I was that went over my head
53:22
And I'm glad because that really confused me. I was like, what is he talking about? How do you how does this work?
53:27
But okay go. Yeah, so we have the big toe of st Teresa we have We have
53:35
Peter's shadow This is the this is the this is the extent of nonsense
53:41
This is the depths of the nonsense that Roman Catholicism will plumb in order to justify bowing before dead people
53:49
Yeah, okay So we've gone through the scriptural examples and now let's start looking into the early church fathers and what we find is the first one
53:58
I want to come to is the martyrdom of Ignatius of Antioch and Ignatius of Antioch died in Rome about 107 108
54:07
AD he was summoned there and went willingly and died in the arena and The they said that only the harder portions of his holy this is
54:18
I'm reading from something called The martyrdom of Ignatius and it's from chapter 6 and it says only the harder portions of his holy remains were left which were conveyed to Antioch and wrapped in linen as an inestimable in Estimable treasure left to the
54:34
Holy Church by the grace, which was in the martyr. Okay, so we have 107 AD Roman Catholics are saying here's evidence early evidence of Of Relic veneration in the early church.
54:50
And in fact, I was reading from a lady's Blog is called
54:56
Catholic by grace And her the title of her article is venerating holy relics
55:02
I think I get it now and she writes and she says unless I think the practice of venerating relics is something out of the
55:09
Middle Ages. I have only to read a book called the faith of the early fathers by William a
55:15
Jurgens which contains an excerpt describing the martyrdom of st. Ignatius Okay, so she's describing this exact incident here, so Ignatius of Antioch was killed
55:29
He was eaten by lions they collected up just the whatever the hardest part of his remains wrapped in linen took it back to Antioch and she says see
55:38
The veneration of relics goes all the way back To the the beginning of the 2nd century
55:44
Well, the problem is you read William Jurgens faith of the early fathers and He says that the martyrdom of Ignatius.
55:54
That is the the account of it that I just read It is ostensibly an eyewitness accounts, but it has since been found to be a fabrication of the 4th or 5th century
56:04
So It's just like when we were talking about the Mary is the
56:10
Ark of the Covenant or Mary In the Immaculate Conception Mary and her sinlessness
56:15
The evidence that they typically bring forward for the early years that is the first three centuries for some reason it always ends up being a fraud or a fabrication
56:27
Isn't that interesting? They these are people who are trying to convince us that we should be doing this because it dates to the
56:34
Apostles and they keep on finding evidence That ends up being fraudulent and they're willing to keep on bringing forward that fraudulent evidence
56:43
So that we can come to the truth. I'm sorry. We're not gonna be brought to the truth by fraud Have they admitted by fabricating?
56:49
Yeah, have they admitted that it's fraudulent or do they still pass it around as legit? Well, it depends
56:56
I think some people Some some people would avoid using the martyrdom of Antioch as evidence of early veneration, but this woman who said that she
57:07
She now gets relic veneration because she read about the the martyrdom of Ignatius of Antioch in William Jurgen's book
57:13
The Faith of the Early Fathers. It says it on that very page that she read it It says it right there.
57:19
This is found to be a fabrication of the 4th or 5th century I think that what she does she still assigns some truth to it, but but more him.
57:26
Well, I guess equally importantly What did the early church do with Ignatius's remains?
57:33
Let's find out did they burn incense? Did they line up and kiss it? Did they burn candles before it?
57:39
Did they kneel down before it and bow down to it with a profound bow? Well, I'm gonna say no
57:45
Yeah Okay. So yeah, that's a good guess. It's a very good guess Jerome in his book in his the lives of illustrious men chapter 16 talks about the
57:57
Ignatius Ignatius of Antioch and his Martyrdom and here's what he says
58:03
He was put to death The 11th year of Trajan and the remains of his body lying
58:08
Antioch outside the Daphnidic Gate in the cemetery So, what did the early church do with Ignatius's remains
58:19
They buried them this is important because so far what we have found so far is
58:28
Jacob Joseph Elisha Stephen and now Ignatius What did people do with dead bodies back then did they put them on altars burn incense to him light candles
58:41
Kneel and bow and kiss them. No, they buried them and what you don't find
58:48
In the martyrdom of Ignatius is people running around Holding his remains putting them in relic rooms and inviting people to come in and bow down before them and burn candles
58:58
Just didn't happen So you your dad was a very good. Yes. Yeah. Well, I also yeah,
59:04
I mean is it was That was that was the gimme that was an easy one so So now let's move to Polycarp of Smyrna who died in 155
59:15
AD and he's brought forward as evidence of Early early keep early practice of keeping relics of the
59:25
Saints and the martyrs in the church and then exposing them annually for Veneration.
59:31
Okay, so I'm gonna read from the martyrdom of polycarp chapter 18 It says accordingly We afterward took up his bones and being more precious than the most exquisite jewels and more purified than gold and Deposited them in a fitting place
59:45
Whether being gathered together as opportunity allowed us with joy and rejoicing The Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom
59:55
Both in memory of those who have already finished their course and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps
01:00:02
Okay, so a Man named Rod Bennett Wrote a book called for witnesses the early church in her own words and in that In that book and in an interview
01:00:19
Called the four witnesses brought me home. He refers to this incident of the martyrdom of polycarp the martyrdom of polycarp is proof of Early relic veneration in the church, and this is what he said.
01:00:33
He said this passage That is the one we just read from the martyrdom of polycarp. He says this passage penned in about AD 155 shows that the practice of keeping
01:00:43
Saints days in this case the anniversary of the martyrdom of polycarp dates from the earliest years of Christianity It would likewise appear from the passage being discussed that the remains or relics of those martyrs were also kept in the churches
01:00:57
Early on and played some part in these anniversary celebrations Then later when he was being interviewed about his book called the four witnesses and the interview is called the four witnesses brought me home
01:01:09
He continues and expounds on this a little bit and says polycarp was a disciple of st John the Evangelist himself and about that time we can see in the records a feast of the martyrdom of polycarp being celebrated
01:01:21
Complete with the exposition of his relics. So this is Rod Bennett Former Protestant who converted to Roman Catholicism because he examined the evidence from the early church and concluded that they practiced relic veneration
01:01:37
Early in the life of the church and he uses polycarp as the example now
01:01:44
The first off the I want to say that in the original and and I did look look up the
01:01:50
Greek in this case The when a martyr died
01:01:57
It was considered his birthday Because He had translated from this life to the next and they actually use that word birthday
01:02:07
So they they don't really call it the Saints Day or the anniversary of his death. They call it his birthday and So what polycarps disciples did is they said let's gather the remains put them somewhere and Let's gather annually to celebrate his birthday and encourage those of us who need to walk in his steps
01:02:28
We're still not at relic veneration yet. And in fact, I want to read from the Catholic Encyclopedia because remember
01:02:35
Rod Bennett concluded that in the early church They kept relics in the churches and Exposed them annually for veneration
01:02:49
Now what Rod Bennett has done is try to make it look like it was the most normal thing in the history of the church as early as the 2nd century for everybody to gather at the church and for them to get out the relics that were being kept there and expose them for veneration
01:03:05
But there is a huge historical problem with Bennett's assessment of the martyrdom of polycarp even the
01:03:13
Catholic Encyclopedia Acknowledges that in polycarps day regular
01:03:18
Sunday services were not held in churches But were held in private houses not in church buildings.
01:03:23
They said the regular Sunday services were held in private houses They didn't have church buildings and they didn't have places church buildings where they could keep relics
01:03:34
Okay, and then further When the Catholic Encyclopedia talks about martyrs It says the anniversary
01:03:42
Commemoration services of the martyrs were held at the martyrs tombs Okay. So what do we have from the
01:03:48
Catholic Encyclopedia? They didn't have churches and The anniversary celebrations were held
01:03:54
Where they were buried Okay. So my question to you is what did?
01:04:02
polycarps disciples do with polycarps bones Um They buried him
01:04:09
They buried them. That's exactly right. Yes. Yes They would gather at the tombs and they would celebrate his birthday and it's not like they were digging him up every every year
01:04:17
That's exactly right what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for respect for the dead I'm not looking for respect for the memory of the dead.
01:04:24
I'm not looking for people carrying bones back from Egypt to Israel I'm not looking for people in a funeral procession to carrying
01:04:30
Stevens body What I'm looking for is incense and bowing and kneeling and kissing and burning candles before relics that have been dug up Okay, we still don't have it.
01:04:40
We have All we have is an unbroken record of people burying the dead
01:04:46
What we don't have is relic veneration That's why I wanted to Start with the definition and explain the practice so we could look for the practice in the early church
01:04:55
And guess what? We don't find it in the early church Digging up dead people and kissing them right so and to that end
01:05:03
I want to look at now in the 3rd century This is 260 AD and it's the testimony of Dionysius of Alexandria It's from his his epistles and epistolary fragments and this is epistle 1 paragraph 3 and It's simply a reference to a guy's occupation and It says his occupation was to dress out and bury the bodies of those perfected and blessed martyrs
01:05:33
So guess what they were still doing to dead people in the 3rd century
01:05:40
They buried him They even had people whose job it was to bury them. Okay, so have we gotten to the point yet where we are digging them?
01:05:48
back up in Venerating them. No, we're not. So let's go to the martyrdom of Victor now early in the 4th century.
01:05:54
This is 303 AD Victor had been killed.
01:06:00
He was a martyr and his As punishment and and really to In order to just discourage his disciples his body was to be left unattended and just to rot but here's here's how the story ended and this is from the passion of st.
01:06:20
Victor and St. Victor Victor died in 303 AD testifying to the faith
01:06:27
He says after permission had been given to bury the martyr The saintly and most blessed bishop maternus went for it and found two beasts one guarding his head and the other guarding his feet
01:06:39
The body itself was as it had been left at the very hour of execution Maternus wrapped the corpse in linen brought it not far from the little wood and buried it in peace.
01:06:50
Okay, so We're already now in the early 4th century. And what? Was the early church doing?
01:06:59
to dead bodies of martyrs They were burying them they were burying them.
01:07:05
Hey, you're doing great Tim. You're a really attentive student so now we're in 360 AD and we're to this is a
01:07:12
Athanasius recorded something called the life of Anthony in this dates to about 360
01:07:19
AD and Something interesting happened to it to Anthony when he was visiting
01:07:25
Egypt and The people there were urging him to abide with him stay there in Egypt to die because he was quite old
01:07:34
And he didn't want to do it And the reason he didn't want to do it was because of some ungodly unholy practice that was occurring there
01:07:40
And he didn't want any part of it, but now we're 360 AD. Okay so It says when this is reading from Athanasius life of Anthony It says but when the brethren were urging him to abide with them and there to die that is in Egypt He suffered it not for many other reasons as he showed by keeping silence and especially for this the
01:08:02
Egyptians are want to honor with funeral rites and wrap in linen cloth at death the bodies of good men and especially of holy martyrs and Not to bury them underground but to place them on couches and to keep them in their houses thinking that this is to honor the departed and Anthony often urged the bishops to give commandment to the people on this matter in like manner
01:08:21
He taught the laity and reproved the women saying that this thing was neither lawful or holy at all for the bodies of the patriarchs and prophets are until now preserved in tombs and the very body of the
01:08:31
Lord was laid in a tomb and a stone was laid upon it and Hid it and hid it until he rose on the third day and thus saying he showed that he didn't
01:08:40
That he who did not bury the bodies of the dead after death transgressed the law and even though they were even though they were sacred and for this
01:08:50
For for what is greater or more sacred than the body of the Lord many therefore having heard
01:08:55
Henceforth buried the dead underground and gave thanks to the Lord that they had been taught rightly Okay, so here late in the late in the fourth century.
01:09:05
You have some people they're starting to think hey we should keep these people as A way to honor them and Anthony thought that is
01:09:16
Holy It was it's unthinkable that we should be doing that and when he taught them that They repented and thanked the
01:09:24
Lord that they had been properly instructed on what to do with the dead. So We're late in the fourth century is 360 and what was the early church doing with martyrs remains?
01:09:35
After After Anthony found that some of them were preserving them like the Pharaohs did with the mummies.
01:09:42
He said sorry that is unlawful It's unholy is profane and absolutely ridiculous and you need to stop doing that You need to bury them, which is the normal thing to do with dead people with martyrs.
01:09:53
So here we are Late in the fourth century. It's 360 and Anthony is saying that the practice of the church has always been to bury dead people
01:10:03
And that it's absolutely wrong to be keeping them above ground so So let's summarize.
01:10:09
What do they do with Jacob's and Joseph's bones? They buried him what they do with the lashes body buried it what they do with Stephen's body
01:10:15
They buried it what they do with Ignatius remains. They buried him. What do they do with Polycarp's remains?
01:10:21
They buried him What did Dionysus say they did with? With martyrs bodies.
01:10:26
Well, they had people whose job it was to bury him. What do they do with Victor's body? They buried it. What did
01:10:32
Anthony find so offensive about what the Egyptian Christians were doing with martyrs bodies? Well, they weren't burying him. So so the bigger question is in all this and all that we've read so far
01:10:42
Where's the incense? Where's the bowing the kneeling the burning of candles and the kissing? The answer is it's found nowhere in the early church at all
01:10:51
What was typically done was to bury the remains? To actually find the incensing and the bowing and the kneeling and the kissing and the burning of candles you have to wait to the latter part of the fourth century and that's why
01:11:02
I showed at the beginning is that you just don't find evidence for that Until you get to the end of the end of the fourth century
01:11:08
And and what I want you to notice though is how quickly Roman Catholics will make will try to make
01:11:14
Roman Catholic relic veneration occur earlier than it really did and an example is from Father William Saunders in his
01:11:22
His article why do we venerate relics? He said essentially Relics that is the bones and other remains of Of st.
01:11:32
Polycarp were buried and the tomb itself was the reliquary well That's a really nice try it trying to show early relic veneration
01:11:44
But it's simply an acknowledgement The polycarp bones were buried now unable to make a clear case for actual veneration of relics
01:11:54
Father Saunders then proceeds into the early 4th century and he says that the actual
01:12:00
Extracting bones from the ground. This is what I've been looking for this whole time, right? I've been trying to find actual relic veneration
01:12:06
I want to know when we start digging bodies back up again and Saunders says that the evidence for that is from 312 ad
01:12:12
Early in the 4th century. He says after the legalization of the church in 312 the tombs of the
01:12:19
Saints were opened and Actual relics were venerated by the faithful a bone or other bodily part was placed in a reliquary a box a
01:12:28
Locket and later a piece a glass case for veneration. So there you go. Well that he finally found evidence for Relic veneration the early church.
01:12:37
He found it in early 4th century in 312 ad the problem is
01:12:44
That he says that it's after the legalization of the church in 312 ad and he's right It's 50 years after legalization of the church
01:12:54
We don't actually find evidence in history for the actually exhuming dead people for veneration until 354 ad and it was first done by Caesar Constantius Gallus The earliest known case of a martyr's bones being disinterred and moved to another location for veneration
01:13:12
There's the translation of the bones of st. Babylis of Antioch. It was done in 354 ad Two years later at Emperor Constantius the to the second translated the bones of Timothy in 356 ad or allegedly st.
01:13:25
Timothy in 356 ad the bones of st. Andrew and Luke in 358 ad It was only after this that the church started to embrace the practice and then the earliest reference we can find to the faithful The faithful I'm putting that in parentheses
01:13:39
Collecting the relics of martyrs for personal veneration Saunders described it is a letter from basil in 373 ad
01:13:47
To send the relics of the martyrs home. You will do well That's a full six decades after 312
01:13:54
But notice how first how William father William Saunders tried to pass off burying polycarp as relic veneration and Then tried to say that after the legalization the church in 312 is when relic veneration relic started being extracted for veneration
01:14:11
You see search the history books. You don't find Anybody digging up dead people
01:14:17
To kiss them and rub their ashes on their face or bow before them or light candles or burn incense to them till after till the latter part of the fourth century in reality the practice of Venerating relics the way that was described in the article.
01:14:32
We read at the beginning of the podcast it proliferated under Pope Damasus the first who reigned from 366 to 384 ad late in the first cent late in the fourth century and he did according to the
01:14:45
Catholic Encyclopedia said he did much to encourage the veneration of the Christian martyrs and The restoring and creating access to their tombs in the catacombs of Rome and elsewhere took place under his administration now
01:14:59
Notice that the William Saunders tried to make this in 312 But really the restoring in the catacombs and making them accessible
01:15:06
So people could get in and start getting the bonus doesn't happen until Pope Damasus in the latter part of the fourth century
01:15:13
So just like the sacrifice of the mass that we did in that series just like all the veneration of Mary You just don't get
01:15:21
Roman Catholicism until you get to the latter part of the fourth century and the same is true with relics everything up until the latter part of the fourth century all they did was bury the dead and Roman Catholics try to pass off respect for the dead as Relic veneration, but what is missing in all those stories is either dead people as in the case of Jesus garment for Paul's handkerchief or Peter's shadow or Incense and bowing and kneeling and kissing and burning candles.
01:15:50
That's what's missing. What's missing in the first What's missing in the first 300 years of Christianity?
01:15:56
Is any evidence at all? that they've venerated relics and Everything else is just trying to stretch the evidence to make it fit to what what is done now
01:16:07
And so as I as I've said often is that Roman Catholics want us to join them in their relic veneration and I tell them
01:16:15
I cannot Depart the apostolic faith and join you in your late 4th century novelties.
01:16:22
So I'm gonna stick with the religion that Christ Started with the church that Christ started.
01:16:27
I'm not going to join Roman Catholicism in the late 4th century novelties And that's all they are.
01:16:33
Amen. Yeah well, let me Okay, so two questions.
01:16:40
Well, actually one's one's more of a comment. I think that it's very significant to note that this came about 50 years after the legalization of the church because You see like if you if you go back and you read
01:16:54
What what happened when the church was finally legalized as the state religion? you see that a lot of people join the church for political means for political gain and that's when the church became very very polluted if you will with mixing of Christianity with paganism and so I think that's that's very significant because that that really is what
01:17:24
I think is taking place here and I think Going back.
01:17:29
It was you said it was like like Tantius. I might be wrong on that, but Who identified this as as paganism?
01:17:37
And so that that's what the Romans did. So that was like Tantius. And yeah, yes in the late 4th century.
01:17:43
That was like Tantius Before Nicaea saying burning candles is a pagan thing
01:17:49
We don't do that and the vigilante says that the relic veneration He was seeing was actually secretly importing pagan practices into the church
01:17:56
But what happened at 312 was there was an edict of persecution that was to kill
01:18:02
Christians and that was lifted in 313 and that was That's just when
01:18:10
Christianity became tolerated It didn't actually become it's not until the latter part of the 4th century that you actually start seeing the
01:18:18
Emperor's enforcing it as The religion of the state and it doesn't officially become the religion the state until about 382.
01:18:26
Mm -hmm with so that's what it became the state religion and But my point in highlighting
01:18:33
Father William Saunders and he says yeah after 312 AD and it became legalized They started actually going through the the tombs and getting their bones
01:18:41
Well, no, they didn't actually that didn't start happening until the first recorded case was 354 and what's interesting is that the
01:18:48
Emperor's started doing it and then the church followed suit and I'm sorry, the Roman Emperors is simply not where we get our practices in our form of worship
01:18:56
Yeah, well and then the question that I had was I guess they believe that these relics have certain powers would that be correct to so it's not just that they're venerating them and kissing them and Bowing down to them, but they actually believe that these relics
01:19:19
Have powers so I suppose You know that maybe if you touch the relic of a dead person or kiss it that you might be healed in the same way that the woman was healed when she touched
01:19:30
Jesus's garment Is that is that an accurate thing to say that they still believe that?
01:19:38
Yes. Yes. In fact, that's what the when I was reading earlier from the Catholic from the
01:19:44
Council of Trent that yeah, you It's wrong to deny According to them.
01:19:50
It's wrong to deny that you visit the Saints in order to receive some benefit from them
01:19:57
Visit the the relics to receive some benefit from them so they look at the woman touching the hem of the garment people touching
01:20:05
Paul's handkerchief or the dead man being revived by the bones of Elisha and they say see relics and and it's proof that That we should venerate relics, but What's missing?
01:20:19
Yeah, I'll grant in the scriptures. Yep. That's exactly right that's what the scriptures say is that people were healed by Paul's handkerchief and The man was revived by touching
01:20:28
Elijah's bones. None of that brings us to a point where we're supposed to put dig up dead people
01:20:35
Right, and so it gets you're dead digging up dead people. Yeah Well, and so it's a it's a sin
01:20:45
They would they would believe that this is a sin if you don't accept this or if you don't do this, right did it
01:20:53
I'm trying to look up because I thought I thought you'd mentioned something about it being an unpardonable sin as was that correct or did
01:21:01
I just misunderstand I'm sorry. I missed the word there. What was the
01:21:09
What I thought I thought I heard you say something about it being an unpardonable sin if you if you don't accept this or if you reject this or Well, I don't know that they would say it's unpardonable.
01:21:21
I just say that it's a sin and the church So, oh, he condemns them. Okay. Yes, that that's the word that that Caught my attention.
01:21:31
So What does that mean? Like because because I you know, if Roman Catholics are listening to this or even if somebody's on the fence,
01:21:41
I Want to point that out that Okay, so here's here's what
01:21:46
I'm trying to get to Oftentimes we hear Roman Catholics When when we put their feet to the fire and when we we show them this stuff
01:21:58
They'll say they'll back off and they'll say well, you know, I don't I don't really believe in that I don't really you know,
01:22:04
I don't really accept that part of it And so I wanted to go back to that and just clarify the church does condemn you for Rejecting this is that is that an accurate thing?
01:22:18
Yes, that's exactly right In fact, that's this exactly what the council and Trent was saying is that right? It's not just saying that you ought to visit the bodies of the holy martyrs to venerate them
01:22:30
But if you deny that you should venerate them with the purpose of getting their aid then you are wholly condemned
01:22:38
Why you are wholly to be condemned right churches already long since condemned you and now condemned you so, you know
01:22:44
It's people said well, I don't do the relic thing. It's like, okay, you're not Catholic anymore, right? right and yeah, and I really want to capitalize on that so if you're a
01:22:55
Roman Catholic or if you are somebody who knows Roman Catholics and You want to?
01:23:01
Flippantly dismiss this and say well, you know, I don't do that Just know that under the system which you are currently in You would be condemned by that system.
01:23:12
And so my encouragement to to all Who are? Currently held captive by that system.
01:23:18
I would say come out of it You know be saved By faith through faith alone by grace alone in Christ alone
01:23:28
Because the church is So the ultimatum is this either you're you're fully on board with this and as we've already as brother
01:23:36
Tim showed It's a it's a novelty of the 4th century of the late 4th century
01:23:43
It has no apostolic tradition this It's not something that the early
01:23:51
Saints The the actual Saints the the true church took part in it's not something that they did it's not something that we should do so I really want to capitalize on that because your church condemns you if you reject this and We're basically making a case that you should reject it.
01:24:13
So Brother Tim, I want to thank you for for coming on today I think this is going to be an excellent episode and we are laying the groundwork for Eschatology and if if our listeners have caught on we keep pointing back to Something took place in the 4th century in the latter part of the 4th century
01:24:37
There there was a change that that occurred in the latter part of the 4th century. And so I hope that that That entices some people to to continue listening to Semper Reformanda radio because we are going to be tackling some other issues with with Tim Coffin regarding Roman Catholicism and the novelties of the late 4th century and then we are going to pick up a series on eschatology and talk about Where where all this fits into an eschatological
01:25:14
Framework so Tim before we go. Is there anything else that you would want to add or say?
01:25:21
No, just the there were Just so people know that there were people who rejected this practice
01:25:28
There were people that rejected the veneration of the cross. There were people that rejected the veneration of relics
01:25:34
There were people that rejected the Impartial virginity of Mary as we talked about in our previous series.
01:25:41
There are people that rejected her immaculate so people that rejected her sinlessness and so over and there are people that rejected priestly celibacy so we can talk about priestly celibacy sometime and and when that originated and What we find consistently is that we're showing that all these new novelties
01:26:02
I guess that's redundant to say that all these novelties originated in the latter part of the 4th century But Roman Catholics will say well, where was the outcry, you know
01:26:12
There should have been the the true church should have stood up the church should have rejected this and what we find is
01:26:18
That sure enough you find some very faithful people saying something's wrong with these
01:26:26
Novelties that are erupting around every corner and they're calling them novelties and they're calling them inventions
01:26:32
They're calling them importing pagan practices into the church. So yes, sure enough. There were people who said sorry
01:26:39
But you're gonna have to show from the scriptures and we're just not seeing it. Yeah Awesome.
01:26:45
Well, all right with that we will go ahead and end today's episode I want to remind everybody that you can reach us at Semper dot refer manda dot radio at gmail .com
01:26:57
and we look forward to hearing from our listeners and I hope everybody has a blessed week if you're listening to this and you have a friend who's a
01:27:07
Roman Catholic You know listen to this and and consider how you might reach out to them because our desire is to reach
01:27:15
Roman Catholics with the truth with the gospel, so that's our reason for doing this and We just thank you for joining us