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And this is what we do at Simple Riff around the radio, you know. We are polemical and polarizing Jesus style.
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It is on. We're taking the gloves off. It's time to battle. Welcome back everybody to Simple Riff around the radio. My name is Tim and, well, my name is Tim Shaughnessy and I'm here with the other Tim, Tim Coffman.
Today we are going to be talking about something to do with Roman Catholicism and I believe the topic is the Roman Catholics and relics. Is that right, Tim?
Yes, we're going to talk about venerating relics and the Roman Catholic arguments for the antiquity of the practice and we'll talk about when it actually originated.
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BTWN. Alright, we are back and so Tim, I've noticed that you've been pretty active on the blog. You are putting together. I just want to draw attention to this real quickly. You are putting together blog articles from our series on Mother Mary.
Yes, that's correct. When we prepare a podcast, we put together all of our show notes and when we're talking about something like the veneration of Mary under her different attributes and titles like the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption and the Ark of the Covenant, it's important to have all the historical data together.
But when you're listening to a podcast, it's easy to digest the information but very difficult to recall it and so we thought we'd put together all the data that went into those podcasts so people can look at the evidence for themselves.
I think that's very helpful because that way they can actually take your notes. So these articles have Tim Kaufman's notes not mine. Whenever I record with Tim Kaufman, he's the one who does all the research and all the work so we're very grateful to have him on the podcast but you're getting to look at his notes so I think it's awesome because you can listen to the podcast and follow along with him as he's going through his own notes and they are extensive, they're detailed and they're very thorough and it's a huge blessing.
So Tim, why don't we just jump into today's topic. I'm going to give the floor to you. You're the one who put together all these notes and I have the benefit of going through it with you but I've not added anything to what you've already put together so why don't we just get started.
Okay, well I'm glad to be here. Thanks again for.
Arranging for this.
I'm always happy to co-host with you. This is a slightly different topic than the ones we have covered regarding Mary but this has to do with the veneration of relics.
And.
As we noted when we were talking about the different attributes of Mary that there was no real sense that Mary was sinless until you get to the end of the 4th century. There's no real sense that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant until you get to the end of the 4th century.
There's no sense that Mary.
Mary's virginity, her physical virginity was.
Preserved in childbirth until you get to the end of the 4th century and we find that repeatedly in all these different doctrines and practices of Roman Catholicism that are alleged to be apostolic. When you do the research and even Roman Catholics acknowledge this when you do the research you find that there's not a lot of really solid evidence for their beliefs until you get to the latter part of the 4th century.
Typically what they do is they'll say if you will just spot us those first three centuries we'll take it from there and prove that these doctrines and teachings must be apostolic. The purpose for these podcasts when we talk about these things is to equip our listeners so that they don't have to take the Roman Catholic arguments lying down.
The fact is so many of the doctrines and practices and teachings of what we now understand to be Roman Catholicism originated not with the apostles but in the latter part of the 4th century. Relics and relic veneration.
Is one of those.
This one is a pretty interesting topic because Roman Catholics will say that the veneration of relics is one of the.
Few.
That they can trace all the way back to the scriptures which is an interesting confession on its face but when we evaluate the data what we'll find is that actual practice of venerating relics originates in the latter part of the 4th century just like all the other practices like when we did our series on the sacrifice of the mass the sacrifice of the mass originated in the latter part of the 4th century.
So I thought we'd start today. Let's just read a news article. It's pretty old but it's going to give you an idea of what we're talking about. This is from the Washington Post back in 1999.
It's just a story.
It's just a human interest story about a church in Largo, Maryland.
That was exposing.
The relics of some martyrs who had died around 200 AD and this is the article.
It says.
The remains, the pebble-sized remains of these martyrs were venerated at two recent evening services at St. Joseph Catholic Church in Largo, Maryland.
As.
Parishioners stood and sang when the saints go marching in and the Knights of Columbus in full regalia shouted the relics, I'm sorry, saluted. The relics on satin pillows were escorted into the church.
Tonight we give glory to God. We are all called to be God's saints the Reverend Michael King said as Deacon Leon Bichette read the Gospel of Luke and urged the worshippers to present your bodies as a living sacrifice.
Small children sang, oh taste and see what the Lord has done and people lined up and kissed some of the relics. So that's an article from 1999 called The Parish's Relics Include.
African Saints.
A human interest story in the religious section of the Washington Post back in 1999. The reason I mention that is to Roman Catholics this is actually not an unusual occurrence but to Protestants it looks weird and it sounds weird so they take pieces of martyrs, their bones and carry them on satin pillows.
The Knights of Columbus salute the priest says we're giving glory to God.
And people.
Line up to kiss these bones.
Roman Catholics will say the veneration of relics is something that can be dated to apostolic times and earlier and so the Protestants are weird for not venerating relics.
And so.
They'll make the case that this is something that's normal. It was taught at the earliest days of Christianity and Protestants have rebelled against apostolic teaching by not venerating relics. So let's talk about relics.
Let me.
Just ask you Tim, you were raised Roman Catholic, did you ever venerate relics or go to a reliquary and see all the different.
Saints.
Dead bones displayed?
No, I never saw any dead bones or anything like that but I didn't have time to read through all of your notes but I'm wondering if I was raised as a Roman Catholic up until about my teenage years and a lot of the stuff.
Now that I'm learning more about it and I'm looking back and thinking oh okay so that's what that was. But we had all those statues and I remember a statue of Mother Mary being given to a family member and I remember thinking this was bizarre because he he was very excited about the family receiving this statue of Mother Mary and I remember him kissing the statue and so I'm wondering if that falls into the same category as to what you're talking about but I never saw any dead bones or anything like that.
Well it's in a similar category because kissing objects is a sign of adoration and veneration is pretty standard in Roman Catholicism, kissing the cross or kissing a relic of the cross or kissing a relic.
Of a martyr.
It's pretty standard.
Stuff in Roman Catholicism.
I think that people.
Were kissing things long before the latter part of the 4th century but the real question is when did we start digging up.
Dead people and kissing them.
And that's what we're going to get to. But let's. I thought we should start with.
What a relic is.
And the basic Roman Catholic teaching on relics and the Roman Catholic practice of veneration and how it manifests so we're going to start with just a Latin term relicus just means remains or remaining.
And so when somebody dies and their body decomposes all that remains is just some bones and teeth and possibly some hair. And so those are the remains or the relics of that person. So according to the Catholic encyclopedia relic veneration is the veneration of some object notably part of the body or clothes remaining as a memorial of a departed saint.
And it's very important to start with that because one it's the official Roman Catholic definition but also because it's the remains of a departed saint. And what we're going to find as Roman Catholics try to justify modern relic veneration they're going to appeal to some scripture passages where the clothing of a living person was held in high esteem.
And they're going to say see that's.
Relic veneration but relic means remains. The official definition is the remaining is a memorial of a departed saint and so we're going to get to Paul's handkerchief and Peter's shadow and say hey those guys weren't departed yet so those don't qualify as remains but what we want to get to is the official Roman Catholic teaching on the veneration of relics and the condemnation of people who reject relic veneration and so for that you can always find some condemnations in the Council of Trent.
In the 25th session of the Council of Trent in the 16th century you find affirmations of relic veneration that is the pieces of bodies of martyrs and dead people and other dead people and also a condemnation of those who reject it and this is from the 25th session of the Council of Trent.
It says the holy bodies of holy martyrs and of others now living with Christ are to be venerated by the faithful through which many benefits are bestowed by God on men so that's the affirmation that you are to venerate the remains of dead people.
They who affirm that veneration and honor are not due to the relics of saints or that these and other sacred monuments are uselessly honored by the faithful and that the places dedicated to the memories of the saints are in vain visited with the view of obtaining their aid are holy to be condemned as the church has already long since condemned and now condemns again.
So basically they're basically saying hey if people who are holy died and you need to take their remains of their bodies they basically put parts of them in altars and so we're going to find as we read a little bit more that Roman Catholic altars tend to have the relic of a saint somewhere embedded in the altar.
They'll be exposed on the altar sometimes in what's called a reliquary. It's just a little box or container that contains or displays the little piece of bone ship or something that is allegedly from a saint and it'll be exposed on the altar or when I was young I visited a relic.
Room in.
Still River Massachusetts and it was a room about about 20 by 20 20 feet by 20 feet and it's just wall to wall, floor to ceiling.
Relics everywhere.
And they're just little cases with a relic of a certain saint or allegedly a saint. A little piece of their bone is in a tiny little case and it's just wall to wall, floor to ceiling and that's a lot of dead.
That's a lot of bones. Little pieces. I mean it could be anything. It could be a tooth, a fingernail an eyelash.
I don't know.
Anything that was related to a saint they would say this is a relic from that saint.
Let me ask you a quick question. It sounds to me like they break up the body and then ship it out to different parishes and ship it out to. Is that right? That's exactly what they do. You might get a toe and the guys down the street might get a finger and wow I didn't know that they did that I thought they would have tried to I know very little about this particular subject dealing with Roman Catholicism but I thought that they would have tried to keep the bodies intact but I guess not.
Well some of them they do and you'll find some.
Some churches.
The bodies of dead saints are actually displayed in state under the altar and I have visited churches that actually have a body of a dead person under the altar.
And of course it's been preserved.
They call them the incorruptibles. They say wow they're so holy their body didn't even corrupt in the grave.
And yet.
When you look at it really closely they're obviously not in very good shape.
Now that I'm just listening to you now that I'm thinking about it I do remember one time seeing a fabric or a cloth as a kid and I just remember being told that this was something that was that it was an article of clothing that belonged to somebody and I have no idea who it was but I do remember people making a big deal about it.
I don't remember if I saw anybody kissing it.
Well that's a good.
Segue into our next section.
Which is to talk about the different classes of relics because what you just described I think is probably a third class relic or a second class relic and a first class relic is actually a part of the saint's body and let me tell you that if a church were to receive the big toe of a saint it would be considered a huge honor.
Because normally a much.
Smaller part of a saint you'd get I mean just a tiny fragment of a bone chip really. It'd be unusual to get a hand for example or a thumb. You'd get some a much much smaller part but say a first class relic is a part of the saint's body and this is placed in an altar stone or placed in a relic display case.
A second class relic is what you were just describing is a piece of the saint's clothing or something used by the saint and then a third class object is an object which has been touched to a first class relic.
So.
They might actually have something.
Maybe.
It's difficult.
To categorize some of these like a chair that was used by a saint might be a third class relic or possibly a second class because it was used by the saint but it also was touched by the saint so it just depends and I've seen them categorized in different ways but there's three basic categories and I imagine that they probably have pretty blurry lines between some of these but a first class is for sure a piece of a body of a saint.
And what.
We do what Roman Catholics do is what was described in the news article that we read at the beginning of the podcast which is they'll get in a line, they'll go forward and pay some respect to this saint.
But it's a respect that's not the normal respect that's paid to the dead. For example we don't sneak into a mortuary at night and put bodies in funny positions and take pictures of them and send them out on Facebook.
That's illegal and you'd be wrong, you don't do that and so in some way we all show some respect to the dead and we are careful at their funerals. We don't say terrible things about them but that's not relic veneration.
That's just respecting.
The dead and it's not unusual to do that. It's not unusual to care for a dead body respectfully until it's placed in the grave. What we'll find as we go through this discussion on relics is that Roman Catholics will find cases in the scripture where a dead person's body was treated respectfully and they'll say see that's relic veneration but what's missing is anybody lining up to kiss the dead body.
So what we read at the beginning of the article was the people at the Roman Catholic Church were lining up to kiss the piece of bone that ostensibly came from this saint from the 2nd or 3rd century.
Allegedly a martyr.
So that leads us to the ways that relics are venerated, we've already discussed one which is kissing. Another way is to incense them and you were raised because your family was so interested in that Latin mass and the Tridentine mass, my guess is you probably attended church services where the priest would get out something called a thurible.
It's connected to a chain and it would have incense burning inside it and you'd swing it toward the altar and that would release some smoke and so you'd have this incense that's released at the altar.
But one of the ways that relics are venerated is by incensing them and this is I'm reading from the Roman Catholic General Instructions of the Roman Missal which basically is how to conduct a mass and it says that relics of the saints exposed for public veneration are incensed with two swings of the thurible.
Some things get three swings but that is they swing the chain toward it once and twice and it releases the smoke. But sometimes the altar I think gets three swings but the relics get two swings of the thurible so that's one way that relics are venerated in the Roman Catholic Church.
Another way is burning candles before them and you could go to various Roman Catholic web pages and I just found an example where a web page says it's a pious custom to keep lamps burning before altars and images of saints and before their relics so they light candles or they burn an oil lamp or something in order to venerate a relic.
Another way is to either bow or to make a profound bow, a bow is you just lean forward, a profound bow is when you make a bow all the way down to your waist.
But.
This is from the ceremonial for the use of the Catholic Churches in the United States of America, 6th edition. This was actually from 1890 but it's basically about high mass. And high mass is the highest most formal mass that a Roman Catholic priest conducts.
And it says. If the relic of the saint whose festival is celebrated is placed in the middle of the altar the celebrant, that is the priest, incenses it with two swings bowing to it before the altar, so he incenses it and then he bows down to it.
And then in another section on the high mass it says. If the priest passes before the high altar where there is a relic of a saint whose feast is celebrated or some other remarkable relic he makes a low bow, that is a profound bow, bowing very very.
Low.
And then finally we've talked about kissing but we'll also talk about kneeling and this is from another Catholic apologetic page, it just says when venerating a relic it is most appropriate to show honor and respect to the saint by performing a simple exterior gesture.
Some venerating a saint's relics can kiss or touch the glass case that houses the relic. Other acceptable gestures include signing oneself with the sign of the cross or kneeling in front of the relic in prayer.
Okay, so.
This is how this is how a relic is venerated in the Roman Catholic Church incense, candles bowing kneeling and kissing or making the sign of the cross or whatever. But you understand that these are the bowing and the kneeling is what we typically associate with adoration, incense and candles we just don't do anymore.
The.
Kissing.
I know that we're supposed to.
Greet one another with a holy kiss but I don't think the scriptures tell us to kiss a dead person although there is a story of a prophet in the Old Testament who brought a boy back to life.
By.
Putting his hands to his hands and his mouth to his mouth. But that's certainly an exceptional case and it's not. It doesn't prove that we should kiss relics but in any case the way Roman Catholics would would venerate a piece of a dead person is to incense it or burn candles in front of it or bow or kneel or kiss that relic.
Now.
It's important to understand that part of it because this is what they mean by veneration.
What I want to read now is that this is from the Catholic Encyclopedia on Relics and this is the point where they say hey a lot of other stuff. It's hard for us to trace back that far but this one we can trace all the way back to the scriptures.
And there's two interesting points I want to make about the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia's entry on relics. First it says few points of faith can be more satisfactorily traced back to the earliest ages of Christianity than the veneration of relics from the Catholic standpoint.
There was no extravagance or abuse in this cult as it was recommended and indeed taken for granted by writers like Augustine, Ambrose, Jerome, Gregory of Nysa, Chrysostom, Gregory of Nazianzen, and by all the other great doctors without.
Exception.
So what I want to first point out is how interesting it is that they say oh yes this can be traced all the way back to the earliest days of Christianity and here's all these people that endorse it. Well every person that they listed is from the latter part of the 4th century.
That's interesting. Now we'll get into some of the evidence that they provide. But there's another section in this entry on relics that I thought was very interesting is that they say it's not easy to figure out when this started.
But they give an example. And they say neither is it quite easy to determine the period at which the practice of venerating minute fragments of bone or cloth, small parcels of dust, etc. first became common.
We can only say that it was widespread early in the 4th century and that dated inscriptions upon blocks of stone which were probably altar slabs afford evidence upon the point which is quite conclusive.
So they're saying we can at least show that early in the 4th century this was widespread. But what's interesting is that the example they give as evidence that this was widespread in the early 4th century is from a slab of stone that's dated to 359.
AD.
That's the latter part of the 4th century. That's not early 4th century, that's the latter part of the 4th century. And what we'll find.
Is we proceed through.
The means of veneration that they don't even have evidence of the means of veneration much less just the veneration itself. And by means of veneration I mean the kissing and the kneeling and the bowing and the incense and we'll get to that in just a second.
But this is something that Roman Catholics think goes all the way back to the apostles and earlier.
And they.
Will rest on that and say this is just evidence that you need to be Roman Catholic and we're going to look at some people a little bit later in the podcast, look at the testimony of some people who converted to Roman Catholicism in part because they finally accepted that wow, relic veneration of the early church looks a lot like Roman Catholicism so I guess I'll just have to become Roman Catholic.
And this is, again, it's the purpose of our podcast on these to show that you don't have to take those arguments lying down. The best Roman Catholicism can do is the latter part of the 4th century and we're going to prove that today on relics.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, that was very good. Just one quick clarification when and this is just in case people are unfamiliar with Roman Catholicism when you say, when you're talking about the saints the Catholics have a different view of saints than the Protestants.
The Protestants believe that every believer is ultimately a saint but the Catholics would basically limit sainthood to somebody who is very special who lived an exemplary life and somehow through their life earned sainthood.
So we're not just talking about anybody who died in the faith. We're talking about people who maybe did something that was exemplary during their lifehood and yes.
That's correct, it's a different meaning of saint. You know, we address each other as saints.
Because the scriptures refer.
To living believers as saints like the saints of Ephesus for example. But in Roman Catholicism a saint is someone who has departed and then after examination is determined to have been exemplary and therefore gets elevated to the status of sainthood or is canonized as a saint.
And that's something that's done.
By the Pope.
So yes.
When we're talking about they're venerating the relic.
Of a saint, they're talking about someone that has been declared to be a saint by Roman Catholicism.
Ok, yeah yeah, let's go.
So what I want to do.
Is typically.
As I mentioned earlier, a Roman Catholic will try to prove the antiquity.
Of.
Relic veneration by showing that a long time ago people respected the bodies of the dead, and you're going to have to do a lot better than that if you're going to convince me that relic veneration goes back to the age of the apostles and earlier.
What's missing in the early evidence is people, the priests incensing, are there being any priests who are incensing relics burning candles before relics, kissing relics, bowing down to relics, and kneeling to relics, and I want to just read the historical evidence that shows that just those things alone are novelties.
Let's just first start with incense.
I was.
Reading the story of a journalist named Walid Shoubat.
And it's something.
People can look him up online, but he talked about how he converted to Roman Catholicism.
Because he did.
Some research and found that the earliest churches from the first century were using incense which is what Roman Catholics do today. But he must not have done enough research because even the Catholic encyclopedia admits they find no evidence of the use of incense until the 5th century.
This is the entry on incense, it says. When exactly incense was introduced into the religious services of the church is not easy to say. During the first four centuries there's no evidence for its use.
The liturgies of St. James and Mark, which in their present form are not older than the 5th century.
Refer to its use at the.
Sacred mysteries, so that's the Catholic encyclopedia saying we can't find any evidence of anybody using incense in the first four centuries of Christianity.
We can rule out that the early church was incensing relics, they weren't venerating relics by incensing them. So let's go to burning candles, Lactantius. And we've talked about Lactantius before good guy who lived I think he lived before the council of Nicaea and I think died the year of the council of Nicaea.
And in his divine institutes, book 6 chapter 2, he ridicules the Romans who burn candles to their gods.
And says.
We have no need to do that, for our god does not need candles. He says, God has no need of their candles. Who has himself given so clear and bright a light. For the use of man is that man therefore to be thought in his senses who presents the light of candles and torches as an offering to him who is the author and giver of light.
So the light he requires from us is of another kind and that indeed not accompanied by smoke I mean the light of the mind. So in one stroke Lactantius rules out incense and candles and you don't find evidence of incense and candles being.
Used in Christian.
Worship until you get to the latter part of the 4th century and we have Jerome in his letter to Marcella in 385 AD talking about.
He had been.
Given a gift of wax candles and he says that reminds us that we should look for the bridegrooms coming with our lights burning. And then in 396 or later he was criticized, there was a man named Vigilantius who had criticized the use of wax candles to honor the martyrs and Jerome defended that.
So his defense of that was in 404 AD but the criticism of it was from 396 AD. So we have the, okay so we can rule out candles and incense right. Well let's. The first recorded instance of kissing a relic is from a letter, letter 46 from Jerome in 386 AD and he says everywhere we venerate the tombs of the martyrs, we apply their holy ashes to our eyes, we even touch them if we may with our lips.
Then we shall touch with our lips the word of the cross and rise in prayer. So here this is a letter from the latter part of the 4th century showing that they were venerating the relics of martyrs by kissing them and also venerating the word of the cross by kneeling before it and kissing it.
But again this is the.
First recorded instance so we have we have kissing relics we don't find until the latter part of the 4th century, incense we can't even find to the 5th, wax candles we don't find used in Christian worship or to honor martyrs until you get to the latter part of the 4th century.
And then the first recorded evidence we have for bowing to relics is Cyril of Alexandria and he lived from 376 to 444 AD. And this is the first case we have of a description of bowing down to the relics.
He says we by no means consider the holy martyrs to be gods nor are we wont to bow down before them adoringly but only relatively and reverentially. So he's saying yes we do bow down to them but we're only bowing down to them with reverence.
And that's you know let's just be clear here. You're not supposed to bow down to anything. You know the commandment from the lord is not don't bow down to something unless you're just showing.
Some relative.
Respect he says don't bow down to images at all and here you have. The latter part of the 4th century and early part of the 5th is they're bowing down to relics. And you remember what we said earlier about how in the high mass the relic is placed on the altar and incensed.
Yeah they get two swings right.
And in one of these one of the examples we gave people would kneel before the relic that's exposed on the altar.
Well.
If you read the council of Nicaea canon 20.
This is from 325 AD.
It says that kneeling was forbidden on Sundays and on Sundays all year and every day from Passover to Pentecost at the council of Nicaea. Now that's interesting because here you have if there was a day for saints for Christians to get together and venerate a relic by kneeling to it it would typically be on a Sunday when the priest is supposed to be conducting the sacrifice of the mass and exposing the relics on the altar for people to venerate right?
I mean this is what Roman Catholics wanted to believe was happening in the early church and yet the council of Nicaea the first ecumenical council of the church canon 20 forbids kneeling.
On Sundays.
So how can you possibly say that kneeling before relics, bowing to relics, kissing relics, burning incense and candle before relics is apostolic when all the evidence we have is that those practices were either forbidden in the early church or we just simply can't find any evidence that it was ever adopted until the latter part of the 4th century and it's I think it's fascinating to hear the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia say hey this is one of the few where we have evidence for it and yet the very means that they would prescribe for venerating a relic were things that you just can't find any proof for in fact sometimes were explicitly forbidden in the early church.
So one thing we can say is that as we go through the history of relics we're going to look at them and say it's not enough to show that the Israelites carried the body of Joseph back to Hebron, you're going to have to show that they burned incense and candles to it and bowed and kneeled and kissed it.
You just don't find that. So what we'll do next now that we've we can rule out the means of veneration because even the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges they just can't find evidence for doing that.
We're going to move on to the actual treatment of dead bodies going all the way back to Jacob and Joseph's bones in the Old Testament. But do you see do you understand. Where we're going though is that if you can't find evidence of incense in the early church and you do find the prohibition of kneeling on Sundays you can be guaranteed that they were not offering incense and kneeling before relics at the Sunday worship service in the early church.
This is a novelty from the latter part of the 4th century it's not apostolic at all.
Yeah. And who was it that you said. Was it Lactantius. You even identified that some of that was pagan worship.
Exactly. In fact the Vigilantius who objected to the veneration of relics in the latter part of the 4th century said that you're just importing pagan practices into the church. This is how you know the people who were believers back then who rejected the kneeling before images and the kneeling before burning candles before martyrs and kneeling before and kissing their relics they were.
They recognized that something was happening and pagan practices were being imported into the church and a lot of these pagan practices were imported in the latter part of the 4th century.
Yeah no I'm with you.
Okay okay so let's talk about Joseph's bones. Because Joseph's bones were and so were Jacob's. Jacob's and Joseph's bones according to the scriptures were carried back.
To Israel.
After the Israelites left Egypt and this is.
From.
Acts 7 15 to 16 it says so. Jacob went down into Egypt and died he and our fathers and were carried over into and laid in a Abraham bought for a sum of money from the sons.
And that's again Acts 7 15 to 16 and Joshua 24 32 it says. And the bones of Joseph which the children of Israel brought up out of Egypt.
They buried in.
A parcel of ground which Jacob bought of the sons of Hamor the father of for 100 pieces of silver. Okay so these are two cases where in scripture we see that the bones.
Were carried back.
To.
Israel to Sechem the land of Abraham. And the reason that this matters is because in Jerome's letter 109 he was arguing against Vigilantius. Vigilantius was criticizing the veneration of relics and he reminded people that in the scriptures the dead a dead body defiles the people that touch it so we ought not be kissing it touching our ashes their ashes to our eyes and that sort of thing.
And so Jerome says hey wait a second they carried the bones of Jacob and Joseph back to Israel were they defiled. So Jerome in his classic style is trying to prove that hey you can't criticize us kissing relics.
Bowing before them because after all the Hebrews brought Jacob and Joseph's bones back to Israel when they left captivity. But the question is the question is what did the Israelites do with Jacob's and Joseph's bones and according to the scripture they buried them and this was based on a promise a promise was made.
That they would.
Jacob wanted his bones buried in Israel and it was a promise that was made and so they kept that promise and they carried his bones and Joseph's bones back to Israel and buried them. So they didn't burn candles, they didn't burn incense or kneel before them or kiss them.
They simply carried them back and put them in the ground put them in a sepulcher. That's it, that's not relic veneration. This is what I meant when I said earlier that often times Roman Catholics will take respect for the dead or respect for a promise and read relic veneration into it.
So you can't look at Jacob's and Joseph's bones and say ooh, early relic veneration. So let's move to the next one which is Elisha's bones. You know the story where a man was being buried.
I'll go ahead and read the passages from 2nd Kings 13 -21. And it came to pass as they were burying a man that behold they spied a band of men and they cast the man into the sepulcher of Elisha and when the man was let down and touched the bones of Elisha he revived and stood upon his feet.
Roman Catholics look at that and say even in the Old Testament people recognized that the bones of the dead had power and therefore relic veneration. So hey the scriptures are clear a man was touched the bones of Elisha and was revived and stood upon his feet, a dead man was brought back to life.
But the question I have is what had they done with Elisha. What did the Israelites do with Elisha's bones, did they put them on display did they line up and kiss them. Did they burn incense to them or put candles there or kneel before them.
No, it says right there in the scripture he had already been buried. They buried Elisha's bones, they did not expose them for veneration. So no you can't look at Elisha's bones and say look, relic veneration.
The next one that Roman Catholics use. I read this on a webpage saying, this is a Roman Catholic apologetics ministry saying the veneration of relics in the Catholic Church is an ancient tradition that dates back all the way to the New Testament, we can find its origins in the life of Jesus Christ.
Think of the woman who touched Jesus' cloak and was healed. Okay so here's the passage Mark 5 27 28 when she had heard of Jesus.
She came.
In the press behind and touched his garment for she said if I may touch but his clothes I shall be whole.
Okay.
So no.
We're not going to grant this to Roman Catholics. Jesus' garment is not a relic because relic means his remains and Jesus was not dead.
His garment, his clothing does not count as his remains. It would only count if they kept it and venerated it like they said wow Jesus came and saved us from our sins rose from the dead ascended to his father's right hand and now we're going to venerate the hem of his garment because a woman touched it that never happened.
And the garment doesn't count as remains unless it's from a departed person and what's interesting is that when she was found out she did not bow down to the garments but came and fell down before him, that's what Mark 5 33 said, so no you don't get the kneeling before the garment, you don't get the kissing the garment, you get a woman coming and bowing down before Christ, so again you look at that and you say as much as Roman Catholics want to get relic veneration out of a woman touching the hem of Jesus' garment.
I'm sorry.
You're going to have to do better than that so let's move to Stephen's body, okay, and this one matters to us because again when Jerome was arguing against Vigilantius and Vigilantius was criticizing relic veneration Jerome invokes the body of Stephen he invokes the example he says, once more I ask, are the relics of the martyrs unclean?
If so, why did the apostles allow themselves to walk in that funeral procession before the body the unclean body of Stephen, why did they make great lamentation over him that their grief might be turned into our joy, okay this is a funeral.
Okay, it's Acts chapter 2 chapter 8 verse 2, a devout man carried Stephen to his burial and made great lamentation over him, I'm sorry this is not relic veneration. What were they doing with Stephen's body.
They were going to bury it, this is a funeral see how Roman Catholics take simple, decent respect for the dead and turn it into they want you to turn this into burning candles, offering incense, kneeling, bowing, kissing dead people's bones and they simply collected Stephen's body and lamented the fact that this saint had been killed for his faith and they buried him, that's it that's not relic veneration.
Okay, so now it's important I want to keep coming back to that, what they did with Elisha's bones and what they did with Joseph's and Jacob's bones and what they did with Stephen's body, because it's going to be very, very important when we get into some of the early church fathers and their writings on the martyrs, because what Roman Catholics interpret as relic veneration is actually more of the same it's just a burial but before we do that, I want to say that if I ever get a chance I don't go to Roman Catholic churches and I don't go to Roman Catholic Mass and I don't go to their relic rooms but if there ever is a reliquary that is displaying the shadow of Peter.
I want to go and see Peter's shadow, because that's an example that Roman Catholics.
Use of.
Proof of veneration of relics and the significance of relics and this is from the Catechism of the Council of Trent. It says, if the clothes, kerchiefs and even the very shadows of the saints while yet on earth banished disease and restored health and vigor, who will have the hardyhood to deny that God can still work the same wonders with holy ashes the bones and other relics of his saints who are in glory.
Well, it's a ridiculous question. First of all I want to say that.
I do.
Want to see the relic room that's displaying Peter's shadow. I don't know if that would count as a second class or a third class relic, because it's not something he used and it's not really something that touched him and yet it's invoked by the Catechism of the Council of Trent as if it was proof that it's okay to bow down and offer incense to bones.
From Acts 15 5 .15 it says, in so much as they brought forth the sick into the streets and laid them on the beds and couches that at the least that at least the shadow of Peter passing might overshadow some of them, so some of them thought that if Peter's shadow would pass over them they would be healed.
In Acts 19 11 -12 it says, and God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul so that from his body were brought to the sick handkerchiefs and aprons and the diseases departed from them and the evil spirits went out of them, so this is.
Roman Catholics are using this as evidence of a federation of relics but again, none of these qualify as remains, Peter and Paul had not left yet.
We're not.
Arguing about what God can and cannot do, nobody ever said God can't heal people with Paul's apron or handkerchief. The scriptures in fact simply tell us that God actually used Paul's handkerchiefs and aprons to heal people from their diseases.
That's a true statement. Nobody is saying God can't do this, the question is when did Roman Catholics start doing this, when did Roman Catholics start venerating the remains of dead people, when did they start digging up bodies and kissing them instead of burying them, and what we find as we go through the history on this there is an unbroken record of burying dead people until you get to the latter part of the 4th century and then they start digging them back up again and that's where relic veneration originates.
So, oh go ahead.
You have a question? Yeah. I had a question. Can you go back to the shadow of Peter and explain. I'm not sure I understand that because so you said if you had the opportunity to see the shadow of Peter that you would take that opportunity, what are we talking about.
Because I don't know how you can have a shadow without a body.
Right.
So is it like oh ok.
We've got Paul's handkerchief in Peter's shadow on display in our reliquary, come and see it. I'd like to see that. Because you're right, you can't have a shadow without.
A body.
That went over my head and I'm glad because that really confused me, I was like what is he talking about, how does this work, but ok go for it.
So we have the big toe of St. Teresa we have the.
We have.
Peter's shadow. This is the extent of nonsense this is the depth of the nonsense that Roman Catholicism will plumb in order to justify bowing before.
Dead people.
So we've gone through the scriptural examples and now let's start looking into the early church fathers and what we find is the first one I want to come to is the martyrdom of Ignatius of Antioch and Ignatius of Antioch died in Rome about 107 -108 A .D.
He was summoned there and went willingly and died.
In the arena.
They said that only the harder portions of his holy. I'm reading from something called the martyrdom of Ignatius and it's from chapter 6 and it says only the harder portions of his holy remains were left which were conveyed to Antioch and wrapped in linen as an inestimable treasure left to the holy church by the grace which was in the martyr.
Ok. So we have 107 A .D. Roman Catholics are saying.
Here's.
Evidence, early evidence.
Of relic veneration in the early church and in fact I was reading from a lady's blog, it's called Catholic by Grace and the title of her article is Venerating Holy Relics, I think I get it now, and she writes and she says unless I think the practice of venerating relics is something out of the middle ages, I have only to read a book called The Faith of the Early Fathers by William A. Jurgens which contains an excerpt describing the martyrdom of Saint Ignatius.
Ok.
So she's describing this exact incident here.
Ignatius of Antioch was killed. He was eaten by lions. They collected up just whatever the hardest part of his remains, wrapped it in linen took it back to Antioch and she says see the veneration of relics goes all the way back.
To the.
Beginning of the second century. Well the problem is you read William Jurgens Faith of the Early Fathers and he says that the martyrdom of Ignatius that is the account of it that I just read it is ostensibly an eyewitness account but it has since been found to be a fabrication of the 4th or 5th century.
It's just like when we were talking about Mary as the Ark of the Covenant or Mary in the Immaculate Conception Mary and her sinlessness. The evidence that they typically bring forward for the early years, that is the first three centuries, for some reason it always ends up being a fraud or a fabrication.
Isn't that interesting? These are people who are trying to convince us that we should be doing this because it dates to the apostles and they keep on finding evidence that ends up being fraudulent and they're willing to keep on bringing forward that fraudulent evidence so that we can come to the truth.
I'm sorry, we're not going to be brought to the truth by fraud by fabrication.
Have they admitted that it's fraudulent? Or do they still pass it around as legit?
It depends, I think some people some people would avoid using the martyrdom of Antioch as evidence of early veneration, but this woman who said that she now gets relic veneration because she read about the martyrdom of Ignatius of Antioch in William Jurgen's book, The Faith of the Early Fathers, it says it on that very page that she read it it says it right there, this is found to be a fabrication of the 4th or 5th century.
I think that what she does, she still assigns some truth to it, but more equally importantly what did the early church do with Ignatius' remains? Let's find out. Did they burn incense? Did they line up and kiss it?
Did they burn candles before it? Did they kneel down before it? And bow down to it with a profound bow? Well...
I'm going to say no.
Yeah, okay, so that's a good guess, it's a very good guess. Jerome, in his book The Lives of Illustrious Men, chapter 16 talks about Ignatius Ignatius of Antioch and his martyrdom. And here's what he says.
He was put to death the 11th year of Trajan and the remains of his body lying Antioch outside the Daphnitic gate in the cemetery. So what did the early church do with Ignatius' remains?
They.
Buried them, this is important because so far what we have found so far is.
Jacob.
Joseph Elisha, Stephen and now Ignatius.
What.
Did people do with dead bodies back then? Did they put them on altars? Burn incense to them? Light candles? Kneel and bow and kiss them? No, they buried them. And what you don't find in the martyrdom of Ignatius is people running around holding his remains putting them in relic rooms and inviting people to come in and bow down before them and burn candles.
It just didn't happen. So your guess.
Was a very good guess.
Yeah that was a gimme that was an easy one.
So now let's move to Polycarp of Smyrna who died in 155 AD and he's brought forward as evidence.
Of early.
Practice of keeping relics of the saints and the martyrs in the church and then exposing them annually for veneration. So I'm going to read from the martyrdom of Polycarp chapter 18 it says. Accordingly we afterward took up his bones and being more precious than the most exquisite jewels and more purified than gold and deposited them in a fitting place where they're being gathered together as opportunity allowed us with joy and rejoicing.
The Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom both in memory of those who have already finished their course and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.
Okay so.
Um a man named Rod Bennett wrote a book called Four Witnesses The Early Church in Her Own Words and in that in that book and in an interview called The Four Witnesses Brought Me Home he refers to this incident of the martyrdom of Polycarp.
The martyrdom of Polycarp is proof of early relic veneration in the church and this is what he said. He said this passage that is the one we just read from the martyrdom of Polycarp he says this passage penned in about AD 155 shows that the practice of keeping saints days in this case the anniversary of the martyrdom of Polycarp dates from the earliest years of Christianity.
It would likewise appear from the passage being discussed that the remains or relics of those martyrs were also kept in the churches early on and played some part in these anniversary celebrations. Then later when he was being interviewed about his book called The Four Witnesses and the interview is called The Four Witnesses Brought Me Home he continues and expounds on this a little bit and says.
Polycarp was a disciple of Saint John the Evangelist himself and about that time we can see in the records a feast of the martyrdom of Polycarp being celebrated complete with the exposition of his relics.
So this is Rod Bennett former Protestant who converted to Roman Catholicism because he examined the evidence from the early church and concluded that they practiced relic veneration early in the life of the church.
And he uses Polycarp as the example.
First off I want to say that in the original and I did look up the Greek in this case.
When.
A martyr died.
It was.
Considered his birthday.
Because.
He had translated from this life to the next and they actually used that word birthday so they don't really call it the saint's day or the anniversary of his death they call it his birthday. And so what Polycarp's disciples did is they said let's gather the remains put them somewhere and let's gather annually to celebrate his birthday and encourage those of us who need to walk in his steps.
We're still not at relic veneration yet and in fact I want to read from the Catholic Encyclopedia because remember Rod Bennett concluded that in the early church.
Kept relics in the churches.
Exposed them annually for veneration. Now what Rod Bennett has done is try to make it look like it was the most normal thing in the history of the church as early as the second century for everybody to gather at the church and for them to get out the relics that were being kept there and expose them for veneration.
But there is a huge historical problem with Bennett's assessment of the martyrdom of Polycarp.
Even.
The Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges.
That in.
Polycarp's day regular Sunday services were not held in churches but were held in private houses not in church buildings. They said the regular Sunday services were held in private houses. They didn't have church buildings and they didn't have places church buildings where they could keep.
Relics.
And then further when the Catholic Encyclopedia talks about martyrs it says the anniversary commemoration services of the martyrs were held at the martyrs'.
Tombs.
So what do we have from the Catholic Encyclopedia. They didn't have churches and the anniversary celebrations were held where they were buried. So my question to you is what did Polycarp's disciples do with Polycarp's bones.
They buried them.
They buried them. That's exactly right. And yes they would gather at the tombs and they would celebrate his birthday.
And it's not like they were digging him up every year.
That's exactly right.
What I'm looking for, I'm not looking for respect for the dead, I'm not looking for respect for the memory of the dead, I'm not looking for people carrying bones back from Egypt to Israel, I'm not looking for people in a funeral procession carrying Stephen's body.
What I'm looking for is incense and bowing and kneeling and kissing and burning candles before relics that have been dug up. We still don't have it. We have, all we have is an unbroken record of people burying the dead.
What we don't have is relic veneration, that's why I wanted to start with the definition and explain the practice so we could look for the practice in the early church and guess what we don't find in the early church digging up dead people and kissing them and to that end I want to look at now in the 3rd century, this is 260 AD and it's the testimony of Dionysius of Alexandria.
It's from his.
Epistles and epistolary fragments. And this is epistle 1 paragraph 3 and it's simply a reference to a guy's occupation and it says his occupation was to dress out and bury the bodies of those perfected and blessed martyrs.
So guess what they were still doing to dead people in the 3rd century.
Yep, they even had people whose job it was to bury them, ok. So have we gotten to the point yet where we are digging them back up and venerating them, no we're not, so let's go to the martyrdom of Victor, now early in the 4th century, this is 303 AD.
Victor.
Had been killed, he was a martyr.
And his.
Punishment and really.
In order to just discourage his disciples, his body was to be left unattended and just to rot. But here's how the story ended and this is from the Passion of Saint Victor and Saint Victor. Victor died in 303 AD testifying to the faith.
He says.
After permission had been given to bury the.
Martyr.
The saintly and most blessed bishop Maternus went for it and found two beasts, one guarding his head and the other guarding his feet, the body itself was as it had been left at the very hour of execution.
Maternus wrapped the corpse in linen brought it not far from the little wood and buried it in peace. Ok, so we're already now in the early 4th century. And what was the early church doing to dead bodies of.
Martyrs.
They were burying them.
They were burying them, hey you're doing great Tim.
I know right.
So now we're in 360 AD and we're to, this is Athanasius recorded something called the Life of Anthony and this dates to about 360 AD and something interesting happened to Anthony when he was visiting Egypt.
The people there were urging him to abide with him, stay there in Egypt to die because he was quite old and he didn't want to do it. And the reason he didn't want to do it was because of some ungodly unholy practice that was occurring there and he didn't want any part of it.
But now we're in 360 AD ok.
It says when, this is reading from Athanasius Life of Anthony, it says. But when the brethren were urging him to abide with them and there to die that is in Egypt he suffered it not for many other reasons as he showed by keeping silence.
And especially for this the Egyptians are wont to honor with funeral rites and wrap in linen cloth at death the bodies of good men and especially of holy martyrs and not to bury them underground but to place them on couches and to keep them in their houses.
Thinking that this is to honor the departed and Anthony often urged the bishops to give commandment to the people on this matter. And like manner he taught the laity and reproved the women saying that this thing was neither lawful or holy at all for the bodies of the patriarchs and prophets are until now preserved in tombs and the very body of the Lord was laid in a tomb and a stone was laid upon it and hid it until he rose on the third day.
And thus saying he showed that he didn't that he who did not bury the bodies of the dead after death transgressed the law and even though they were sacred and for this for what is greater or more sacred than the body of the Lord.
Many therefore having heard henceforth buried the dead underground and gave thanks to the Lord that they had been taught rightly.
So here late in the fourth century you have some people that are starting to think hey we should keep these people as a way to honor them. And Anthony.
Thought.
That is.
Holy.
It's unthinkable that we should be doing that. And when he taught them that they repented and thanked the Lord that they had been properly instructed on what to do with the dead. So we're late in the fourth century 360 and what was the early church doing with martyrs remains.
After.
Anthony found that some of them were preserving them like the pharaohs did with the mummies. He said sorry that is unlawful it's unholy it's profane and absolutely ridiculous and you need to stop doing that.
You need to bury them which is the normal thing to do with dead people with martyrs. So here we are late in the fourth century it's 360 and Anthony is saying that the practice of the church has always been to bury dead people and that it's absolutely wrong to be keeping them above ground.
So let's summarize. What do they do with Jacob's and Joseph's bones. They buried them. What do they do with Elisha's body. They buried it. What do they do with Stephen's body. They buried it. What do they do with Ignatius remains.
They buried them. What do they do with Polycarp's remains. They buried them. What did Dionysus say they did with martyrs bodies. Well they had people whose job it was to bury them. What do they do with Victor's body.
They buried it. What did Anthony find so offensive about what the Egyptian Christians were doing with martyrs bodies. Well they weren't burying them. So the bigger question is in all this in all that we've read so far where's the incense.
Where's the bowing the kneeling the burning of candles and the kissing. The answer is it's found nowhere in the early church at all. What was typically done was to bury the remains to actually find the incensing and the bowing and the kneeling and the kissing and the burning of candles.
You have to wait to the latter part of the fourth century. And that's why I showed the beginning is that you just don't find evidence for that until you get to the end of the fourth century. And what I want you to notice though is how quickly Roman Catholics will make will try to make Roman Catholic relic veneration occur earlier than it really did.
An example is from Father William Saunders in his article. Why do we venerate relics. He said essentially relics. That is the bones and other remains of of St. Polycarp were buried and the tomb itself was the reliquary.
That's a really nice try at trying to show early relic veneration but it's simply an acknowledgement that Polycarp's bones were buried now unable to make a clear case for actual veneration of relics. Father Saunders then proceeds into the early fourth century and he says that the actual extracting bones from the ground.
This is what I've been looking for this whole time right. I've been trying to find actual relic veneration. I want to know when we start digging bodies back up again. And Saunders says that the evidence for that is from 312 AD.
Early in the fourth century he says after the legalization of the church in 312 the tombs of the saints were opened and actual relics were venerated by the faithful. A bone or other bodily part was placed in a reliquary a box a locket and later a glass case for veneration.
So there you go. He finally found evidence for relic veneration in the early church. He found it in early fourth century in 312 AD. The problem is that he says that it's after the legalization of the church in 312 AD.
And he's right. It's 50 years after the legalization of the church. We don't actually find evidence in history for actually exhuming dead people for veneration until 354 AD and it was first done by Caesar Constantius Gallus.
The earliest known case of a martyr's bones being disinterred and moved to another location for veneration is the translation of the bones of St. Babilus of Antioch.
It was done in 354.
AD. Two years later Emperor Constantius II translated the bones of Timothy in 356 AD or allegedly St. Timothy in 356 AD the bones of St. Andrew and Luke in 358 AD. It was only after this that the church started to embrace the practice and then the earliest reference we can find to the faithful the faithful.
I'm putting that in parentheses. Collecting the relics of martyrs for personal veneration as Saunders described it is a letter from Basil in 373 AD. Send the relics of the martyrs home you will do. Well that's a full six decades after 312.
But notice how first how Fr. William Saunders tried to pass off burying polycarp as relic veneration and then tried to say that after the legalization of the church in 312 is when relic veneration started being extracted.
For veneration. You search the history books you don't find anybody digging up dead people to kiss them and rub their ashes on their face or bow before them or light candles or burn incense to them until after the latter part of the 4th century.
In reality the practice of venerating relics the way that was described in the article we read at the beginning of the podcast. It proliferated under Pope Damasus I who reigned from 366 to 384 AD late in the 4th century.
And he did.
According to.
The Catholic Encyclopedia said he did much to encourage the veneration of the Christian martyrs.
The restoring and creating access to their tombs in the catacombs of Rome and elsewhere took place under his administration.
Notice that William Saunders tried to make this in 312. But really the restoring of the catacombs and making them accessible so people could get in and start getting the bones doesn't happen until Pope Damasus in the latter part of the 4th century.
So just like the sacrifice of the mass that we did in that series just like all the veneration of Mary you just don't get Roman Catholicism until you get to the latter part of the 4th century. And the same is true with relics.
Everything up until the latter part of the 4th century all they did was bury the dead. And Roman Catholics tried to pass off respect for the dead as relic veneration. But what is missing in all those stories is either dead people as in the case of Jesus garment or Paul's handkerchief or Peter's shadow or incense and bowing and kneeling and kissing and burning candles.
That's what's missing. What's missing in the first 300 years of Christianity is any evidence at all that they venerated.
And everything else is just trying to stretch the evidence to make it fit to what is done now. So as I've said often is that Roman Catholics want us to join them in their relic veneration and I tell them I cannot depart the apostolic faith and join you in your late 4th century novelties.
So I'm going to stick with the religion that Christ started with the church that Christ started. I'm not going to join Roman Catholicism in their late 4th century.
Novelties.
And that's all they are.
Well let me. Okay. So two questions well actually one's more of a comment. I think that it's very significant to note that this came about 50 years after the legalization of the church because you see like if you go back and you read what happened when the church was finally legalized as the state religion you see that a lot of people joined the church for political means for political gain and that's when the church became very very polluted if you will with mixing of Christianity with paganism and so I think that's very significant because that really is what I think is taking place here.
And I think going back you said it was like Tantius I might be wrong on that but who identified this as paganism and said that that's what the Romans did so.
That was like Tantius in the late 4th century. That was like Tantius before Nicaeus saying burning candles is a pagan thing we don't do that. And the vigilante said that the relic veneration he was seeing was actually secretly importing pagan practices into the church.
But what happened at 312. There was an edict of persecution to kill Christians and that was lifted in 313.
That was.
That's just when Christianity became tolerated it didn't actually become. It's not until the latter part of the 4th century that you actually start seeing the emperors.
Enforcing it as.
The religion of the state and it doesn't officially become the religion of the state until about 382 so that's when it became the state religion. But my point in highlighting Father William Saunders he says yeah after 312 AD it became legalized.
They started actually going through the tombs and getting their bones. Well no they didn't. Actually it didn't start happening until the first recorded case was 354 and what's interesting is that the emperors started doing it and then the church followed suit and I'm sorry the Roman emperors is simply not where we get our practices.
And our form of worship.
Yeah and then the question that I had was I guess they believe that these relics have certain powers. Would that be correct to. So it's not just that they're venerating them and kissing them and bowing down to them but they actually believe that these relics have powers.
So I suppose that maybe if you touch the relic of a dead person or kiss it that you might be healed in the same way that the woman was healed when she touched Jesus' garment. Is that an accurate thing to say that they still believe that.
Oh yes yes in fact that's what I was reading earlier from the Catholic from the Council of Trent that yeah it's wrong to deny according to them it's wrong to deny that you visit the saints in order to receive some benefit from them visit the relics to receive some benefit from them.
So they look at the woman touching the hem of the garment people touching Paul's handkerchief.
Or.
The dead man being revived by the bones of Elisha and they say see relics.
It's proof that.
We should venerate relics but what's missing I'll grant in the scriptures. That's exactly right. That's. What the scriptures say is that people were healed by Paul's handkerchief and the man was revived by touching Elisha's bones.
None of that brings us to the point where we're supposed to put dig up dead people.
Right and so.
You just don't get to digging up dead people from that.
And so it's a sin they would believe if this is a sin if you don't accept this or if you don't do this right. I'm trying to look up because I thought you had mentioned something about it being an unpardonable sin.
Was that correct or did I just misunderstand.
I'm sorry I missed the word there.
What was the question. I thought I heard you say something about it being an unpardonable sin if you don't accept this or if you reject this.
Well I don't know that they would say it's unpardonable I just say that it's a sin and the church condemns them.
Oh it condemns them. That's the word that caught my attention. What does that mean. Because Roman Catholics are listening to this or even if somebody's on the fence I want to point that out that here's what I'm trying to get to.
Often times we hear Roman Catholics when we put their feet to the fire and when we show them this stuff they'll back off and they'll say well you know I don't really believe in that. I don't really accept that part of it and so I wanted to go back to that and just clarify the church does condemn you for rejecting this.
Is that an accurate thing?
Yes that's exactly right. In fact that's exactly what the council in Trent was saying. It's not just saying that you ought to visit the bodies of the holy martyrs and to venerate them but if you deny that you should venerate them with the purpose of getting their aid then you are wholly condemned.
You are wholly to be condemned. The church has already long since condemned you and now condemns you. People say well I don't do the relic thing. Okay you're not Catholic anymore.
Right. And I really want to capitalize on that. So if you're a Roman Catholic or if you are somebody who knows Roman Catholics and you want to flippantly dismiss this and say well you know I don't do that just know that under the system which you are currently in you would be condemned by that system.
So my encouragement to all who are currently held captive by that system I would say come out of it.
Be.
Saved by faith through faith alone by grace alone in Christ alone. Because the church so the ultimatum is this. You're fully on board with this and as we've already as brother Tim showed it's a novelty of the 4th century of the late 4th century.
It has no apostolic tradition. This it's not something that the early saints the actual saints the true church took part in. It's not something that they did. It's not something that we should do. So I really want to capitalize on that because your church condemns you if you reject this and we're basically making a case that you should reject it.
So brother Tim I want to thank you for coming on today. I think this is going to be an excellent episode and we are laying the groundwork for eschatology and if our listeners have caught on we keep pointing back to something took place in the 4th century.
In the latter part of the 4th century there was a change that occurred in the latter part of the 4th century and so I hope that entices some people to continue listening to Semper Reformanda radio because we are going to be tackling some other issues with Tim Coffman regarding Roman Catholicism and the novelties of the late 4th century and then we are going to pick up a series on eschatology and talk about where all of this fits into an eschatological framework.
So Tim before we go is there anything else that you would want to add or say?
No, just.
There were just so people know that there were people who rejected this practice. There were people that rejected the veneration of the cross. There were people that rejected the veneration of relics.
There were people that rejected the impartio virginity of Mary as we talked about in our previous series. There were people that rejected her immaculate. People that rejected her sinlessness.
Over and there were people that rejected priestly celibacy so we can talk about priestly celibacy sometime and when that originated and what we find consistently is that we're showing that all these new novelties, I guess that's redundant to say that all these novelties originated in the latter part of the 4th century but Roman Catholics will say well where was the outcry?
You know there should have been, the true church should have stood up, the church should have rejected this and what we find is that sure enough you find some very faithful people saying something's wrong.
With these.
Novelties that are erupting around every corner and they're calling them novelties and they're calling them inventions and they're calling them importing pagan practices into the church. So yes sure enough.
There were people who said sorry but you're going to have to show from the scriptures and we're just not seeing it.
Yeah. Awesome. Well alright with that we will go ahead and end today's episode. I want to remind everybody that you can reach us at semper .reframanda .radio at gmail .com and we look forward to hearing from our listeners and I hope everybody has a blessed week.
If you're listening to this and you have a friend who's Roman Catholic listen to this and consider how you might reach out to them because our desire is to reach Roman Catholics with the truth, with the gospel so that's our reason for doing this and we just thank you for joining us.
God bless and we'll see you next week.