May 24, 2023 Show with Zac Hicks on “Worship by Faith Alone: Thomas Cranmer, the Book of Common Prayer, & the Reformation of Liturgy”

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May 25, 2023

May 24, 2023 ZAC HICKS, pastor of Church of the Cross in Birmingham, Alabama, adjunct lecturer in music & worship at Samford University, & author of The Worship Pastor: A Call to Ministry for Worship Leaders & Teams, & Before We Gather: Devotions for Worship Leaders & Teams, who will address: “WORSHIP BY FAITH ALONE: THOMAS CRANMER, The BOOK of COMMON PRAYER, & the REFORMATION of LITURGY”

00:02: Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of Founding Father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer
00:11: George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend
00:16: Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:58: And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
01:15: Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is
01:21: Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday On this 24th day of May, 2023,
01:29: I am thrilled to have on the program a first -time guest who is going to be discussing a great figure from church history, a hero from church history that is tragically, frequently, in fact even most often, overlooked even by those who are theologically reformed in the
01:54: Christian faith outside of Anglicanism. I'm talking about one of my heroes,
02:01: Thomas Cranmer, and Cranmer became one of my heroes after discovering him and learning more about him from Ashley Null, who is a
02:16: Cranmer scholar and perhaps the foremost living expert on Thomas Cranmer in the church, although Dr.
02:26: Null is far too humble to admit that, I think, publicly. But we have on the program today someone who has written a new book,
02:38: Worship by Faith Alone, Thomas Cranmer, the Book of Common Prayer, and the Reformation of Liturgy.
02:43: His name is Zach Hicks and Zach Hicks is pastor of Church of the Cross in Birmingham, Alabama, a congregation in the
02:52: Evangelical Presbyterian Church in America. He's an adjunct lecturer in music and worship at Samford University, an author of The Worship Pastor, A Call to Ministry for Worship Leaders and Teams, and Before We Gather, Devotions for Worship Leaders and Teams, and the book we are addressing today,
03:13: Worship by Faith Alone. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Zach Hicks.
03:21: Thanks so much for having me. It's great to have you on, brother, and tell our listeners something about Church of the
03:27: Cross in Birmingham, Alabama. Church of the Cross is a four -and -a -half -month -old church plant in the
03:36: Evangelical Presbyterian Church, as you said. There are no EPC churches currently in Birmingham.
03:43: We have a real heart to try to reach folks who are falling through the cracks of cultural
03:49: Christianity down here, and so a lot of our work is under -the -radar relational work.
03:55: It's slow and quiet and a beautiful work of really meeting people where they're at, and I couldn't be more thrilled with what the
04:05: Lord is doing among us in a slow and relational way. Well, if anybody is visiting
04:13: Birmingham, or you live in Birmingham or nearby, or you have family, friends, and loved ones who live in Birmingham or nearby, the website for more information on this congregation is crossbham .org—Cross
04:29: B as in Birmingham, and ham, an abbreviation obviously, dot org—crossbham .org,
04:37: and God willing, I will hopefully remember to repeat that later on in the broadcast.
04:43: And I hope that if you do not already know him, that you get to know someone that I have grown to love as one of my dearest friends,
04:54: Reverend Roger Salter, who is the rector at St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, which is a theologically -reformed congregation, as he very proudly describes that church,
05:12: Cranmerion, and adherents of the
05:17: Book of Common Prayer and the Thirty -Nine Articles of Religion. Roger is one of the most humble and Christ -like human beings
05:25: I've ever met in my life, and I'm sure you will absolutely love getting to know this brother, if you indeed do.
05:34: And I will put you both in touch with each other after the show, if indeed you don't already have contact with him.
05:41: Awesome, thank you. I haven't met him, but have enough friends who have talked about him that I totally believe your endorsement.
05:48: And you can actually listen to quite a number of interviews I've done with him on the archive of IronTropeandZionRadio .com.
05:56: We have a tradition here, before we go into the theme of your book, we have a tradition on IronTropeandZionRadio, whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, which would include any kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which you were raised, and the kinds of providential circumstances our
06:17: Sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to Himself and saved you. So let's hear your story.
06:24: I grew up in Honolulu, Hawaii, in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, raised by Christian parents in the
06:32: Southern Baptist tradition, and I grew up from age 2 to age 18 in one church, and that fact has shaped me probably more than anything.
06:43: The fact that my parents didn't move around, my parents were with one local congregation as young believers at the time, and raising me there.
06:52: So I was raised now, in hindsight, I'd use language like I was raised in a covenant home. There came a moment in our worship services, as is a part of the
07:02: Baptist tradition, where each week we'd have altar calls, and right around the age of 7, after a lot of great teaching,
07:09: Sunday school leadership, and what I describe as a family of people in my life pointing me to the
07:15: Lord and teaching me His word, where the altar call didn't feel like it was just for everybody, but it felt like it was for me.
07:25: I was about 7 years old, and from my own developmental angle, really did feel the conviction of my sin, even if I didn't quite have language for it.
07:36: I felt inadequate, and that I needed only what God could provide for me in Jesus Christ.
07:41: So I went forward that Sunday, was baptized a few weeks after that, and really began seeing the
07:50: Lord bear fruit in my life from that time onward, and He really paved the way for an additional kind of stage of my own vocation as a follower of Jesus Christ into a call into pastoral ministry.
08:07: And so, yeah, in a way, there's not a time in my life where I can remember being outside or apart from the love of Jesus Christ, and I have journeyed throughout my life of ups and downs, of doubt and certainty, and the wrestling of those things, with a sure sense that God loves me and has held me in His grace.
08:32: And that still continues to be my testimony, and it's really funny to have journeyed a lot through the intellectual side of my faith, through embracing studying the
08:43: Bible deeply, studying church history deeply, studying theology deeply, studying liturgy deeply, and then coming back on the other side to some of the basics that I began with, which is it doesn't get any better than a living relationship with the living
08:58: God through Jesus Christ. It doesn't get any better than prayer, reading my Bible, worshiping with the people of God, and fellowship with other
09:08: Christians. And in a sense, I'm coming back to that as once again the center of my faith, those practices and faith in Jesus Christ.
09:19: So I'm blessed to be someone whom God has held in His church for those times, and I can't think of any better way to have lived the life than the one that He's given me, and so could share many moments of suffering and pain, but all those moments
09:38: He's been with me and has graciously held me in His arms and held my face fixed towards Jesus.
09:45: Amen, and how did you come to providentially discover and embrace Reformed theology?
09:52: I had a fiery Calvinist annoying roommate in college who
09:58: I thought was obnoxious, and he kept on asking me to come to his Presbyterian church, for one, and number two, kept on wanting to debate the finer points of theology with regards to Reformed Christianity, and I had no interest in it.
10:14: I took a hermeneutics class, and because of that, roommate decided,
10:19: I'm going to tackle Ephesians 1 and learn how to exegete this passage and disprove that God is sovereign and providentially ahead, behind, and around our salvation, and hopefully show exegetically why we contribute to our salvation through our own volition and choice.
10:46: And once I was using the rules of hermeneutics that I was taught in that class of studying the scriptures,
10:54: I actually kind of came to the opposite conclusion. I'm like, well, Ephesians 1 says what it says.
11:00: It says some pretty powerful things about God's predestination, His love for us before we ever loved
11:09: Him, and that seems to be the crux of Paul's theology of the gospel anyway. And that was the big watershed moment for me, was a kind of exegetical paper on Ephesians 1 that cracked open an inquiry into Reformation theology and Reformed Christianity.
11:30: I read a book that really impacted me called Chosen by God by R .C. Sproul. Pete Yes.
11:35: And for me, it was accessible, and it answered a lot of the looming questions that one would have when one is first encountering the difficult and thorny issues of God's providence in our salvation.
11:50: Now, when did you come to realize, and how did God make known to you that He had placed a call to pastoral ministry upon your life?
12:01: Zach That came on a youth ministry, or a youth retreat when
12:07: I was in the 10th grade, and it was pretty supernatural for me. I was reading Christ's call to the disciples in the gospels where He asked them to leave their nets and follow
12:19: Him, and pretty supernaturally for me, God was saying, your nets,
12:28: Zach, are who you thought you would be. I'd wanted to be an architect since I was about four years old, just because I liked drawing,
12:35: I liked building, I liked math, I liked angles, I liked the precision of it. And God said, I want you to leave that behind and pursue a path of vocational pastoral ministry and following me.
12:47: And I met with my pastor the next week, asked him a silly question.
12:53: Tell me in an hour everything you know about pastoral ministry so I can make this decision. And instead of laughing at me, he spent the next hour looking me in the eye and giving me the time of day.
13:06: And by the end of that conversation, I said, I think that's for me. And so in good Baptist fashion,
13:11: I went before my congregation the next Sunday during the altar call and committed my life to pastoral ministry. And in a sense, haven't looked back since then,
13:19: God is very faithful to confirm that call and utilize the church to affirm that call and to say, you have these gifts and we affirm that you have these gifts and we want to see you use these gifts in our midst.
13:33: Well, praise God. And now we come to the book that you have written.
13:39: And an obvious question would be, how on earth did a
13:45: Presbyterian pastor come to fall in love with an Anglican named Thomas Cranmer and be so enamored with him and so highly revere him that he wrote a book about his involvement in the
14:00: Book of Common Prayer and the Reformation of Liturgy? Yeah, I imagine that's an obvious question to you and me.
14:08: I'm not sure it is to everybody else. But historically, Presbyterians with a broad brush were the ones that really advocated for no fixed forms of liturgy and were the ones in a sense to, this is a bit exaggerated to say, but were the ones who in England actually sought the banning and executed the banning of the
14:32: Book of Common Prayer for a little over a decade during the Commonwealth. And so yeah, it's historically odd that someone like me would take an interest in the
14:42: Book of Common Prayer and its architect, Thomas Cranmer. Part of my own journey as a
14:49: Presbyterian minister, but also as a planner and leader of worship services in the evangelical tradition has been a recognition that a lot of modern evangelicalism, of which
15:00: I'm a part, has ignored history and has ignored the worship traditions of the past.
15:08: And as a result of having not grown up in that traditions, but having been someone who's studied the
15:15: Bible, cares about theology, recognizing that something's missing from our worship.
15:20: And I began to explore liturgies, explore church history, explore the history of hymnody and those sorts of things and found answers and solace and comfort and peace and even the missing pieces of evangelical worship filled out by our liturgical tradition.
15:40: And that began a 15 -year investigation into those sorts of things. Around the same time, kind of like a second conversion for me in my early 20s,
15:51: I began to see how the gospel, the good news of Jesus, wasn't just something for non -Christians.
15:58: It's actually something for Christians. It's something for me. It's the fuel for my faith. And so I began to ask the question as a worship planner and leader, what does it mean for this gospel that has relevance to me as a
16:09: Christian daily and repentance that is something I should be living in and enacting daily?
16:14: What does it mean for a worship service to be governed and guided by that? And so I began a quest of what is, quote, gospel -centered worship look like.
16:23: Somewhere along that line of questioning and my line of questioning about liturgies and appreciation for liturgies,
16:31: I drilled down deep enough into my own history as a Presbyterian, as an evangelical, and as a
16:37: Protestant. And I found Thomas Cranmer, or rather others helped me find
16:42: Thomas Cranmer. And I began to realize that this man was asking and answering that very question that I was trying to answer with far more depth, far more acumen, far more exposure to things that I cared about, like the scriptures, exegesis, the church fathers, the liturgical tradition of the church, everything.
17:03: And I said, man, I need to spend time listening to this guy. And Presbyterians, I think, can rightfully view
17:13: Thomas Cranmer as within our ancestry because Thomas Cranmer wouldn't have consciously been an, quote,
17:18: Anglican. Anglican's a title that comes later. He just would have viewed himself as a small -c
17:26: Catholic Christian trying to be faithful to the scriptures and recognizing the centrality of the gospel in the scriptures, and therefore finding himself in this burgeoning expression of Catholic Christianity called
17:40: Protestantism. And therefore, as someone who is trying to understand my own roots, both doxologically and theologically,
17:51: Thomas Cranmer is right in my genealogy, there for the taking, there for the exploring. And that's how
17:56: I got wind of him, and that's why I began pursuing him and studying the Book of Common Prayer in earnest.
18:02: It has to do with liturgy, and it has to do with the quest for gospel -centered worship.
18:08: And I'm going to read a quote from the forward written by the aforementioned
18:13: Ashley Null, who I'm sure you would agree is likely the foremost living expert on Thomas Cranmer.
18:22: I do. A Cranmer scholar that I have had the privilege of interviewing several times on this program. Dr. Null says in his forward,
18:32: Zach Hicks is to be commended for his close reading of Cranmer's writings in the midst of all the other influences and sources for Cranmer's liturgical work.
18:43: Hicks marshals much evidence to show that the Reformation's recovery of Paul's message, not
18:51: I, but Christ, was Cranmer's plumb line in shaping his liturgical legacy for the
18:57: Anglican communion. Hicks confirms the fact so often overlooked that Cranmer designed the
19:04: Book of Homilies, the Book of Common Prayer, and the Articles of Religion to be a three -stringed cord which strongly proclaims the gospel message.
19:15: Christ is the horse which pulls the cart of our Christian salvation and discipleship.
19:21: May he enable us to recover this abiding truth in our era as well.
19:27: Quite a powerful excerpt from the foreword by Ashley Null. And just to give our audience to wet their appetites so that they mentally remain with us, because sometimes when you're bringing up historical figures, people may wrongly start to presume, oh, this is going to be a dry, dull topic.
19:53: But just to give you an idea of who Cranmer was, I'm just going to give a very abbreviated description of one of the most pivotal events in his life.
20:06: Thomas Cranmer was the Archbishop of Kent the Bury under King Henry VIII, and he was a theologically reformed
20:16: Christian, and as we already said, drafted the
20:21: Book of Common Prayer and the 39 Articles of Religion, and he was very committed to the
20:29: Protestant faith. In fact, from what I have heard from Dr. Null, he did not believe that his friend
20:36: King Henry VIII was truly born again, because King Henry VIII was really retaining the false understanding of the gospel that was promoted by the
20:47: Church of Rome. Even though he was an instrument in the English Reformation, and some have even called him the first Protestant, he was still
20:58: Roman Catholic in his understanding of the gospel. And when King Henry VIII was on his deathbed, as far as Dr.
21:06: Null has informed me, Cranmer was concerned about where King Henry VIII would spend eternity, and he asked him, do you believe in justification by faith alone?
21:18: And if you do, squeeze my hand. And King Henry VIII squeezed his hand, and that was a comfort to Cranmer that King Henry VIII had truly been converted.
21:30: And then when King Henry VIII died, and the pendulum swung back in the
21:36: Church of England to Romanism, and those that were Protestants in the ecclesiastical hierarchy of the
21:45: Church were being threatened with execution and being executed in torturous ways, in fear of this,
21:55: Thomas Cranmer recanted his Protestant faith. But then, thanks be to God, the guilt of that overwhelmed him, and he eventually recanted his recantation.
22:11: And when he was being marched to be burned alive, he actually, according to Dr.
22:19: Null, walked at a much quicker pace than those who were leading him to his execution, where he was actually in front of them, perhaps even trotting quickly to his death, and he thrust his hand that signed his recantation of Protestantism into the flames first, that it might be burned before the rest of his body.
22:45: Am I accurately remembering, Dr. Null, on that summary? Yes. He said, this is the hand that doth offend, and so that's how the story goes, reported in Fox's Book of Martyrs, that Cranmer indeed put his hand in there first before the rest of his body.
23:01: And so I don't know why this figure, I've seen him portrayed in other movies about Church history, about the
23:11: Church of England, as a minor figure, a background figure, but I've never heard of, and maybe you can correct me, maybe there is one, but I've never heard of a movie that was specifically on Thomas Cranmer as the primary figure, because if there hasn't been one made, there should be.
23:28: I mean, it's a fascinating story. Yeah, I have not heard of one either. He really is someone that never sought the spotlight, which is why when you study him in his true character, he's just not a flashy figure.
23:42: He's a bookish introvert who was always reluctantly thrust into public places.
23:48: Just like John Calvin. Yeah, and yeah, his death was, it was mixed.
23:56: It was human, and it was heroic, and it stood for a lot that many have been inspired by in subsequent generations.
24:06: Amen. Well, please explain the primary title,
24:12: Worship by Faith Alone. That may seem a bit puzzling to people, even thoroughly committed
24:20: Reformed Protestants who believe in Sola Fide, that salvation is through faith alone, that justification is by faith alone, but how does
24:34: Worship by Faith Alone work into that? Yeah, I imagine that it would be the way we come into the faith is the way that we are carried through the faith, that we never go past the gospel, but in a sense, our faith walk, our journey with the
24:54: Lord, our sanctification, if you will, is in a sense only being thrust more deeply into recognition of how magnanimous God's grace is, how deep my sin is, how much
25:06: I need repentance and God's love and provision more, and so how we are saved is how we worship, and the gospel that shapes
25:17: Christians is that same good news that in a sense should govern, guide, and architect the way that we approach
25:25: God in our public worship services together, and so the idea of worshiping by faith alone is maybe a different way of saying worship centered on and surrounded by and informed by and governed by the gospel of Jesus Christ.
25:43: If we're looking for formation, which is a big buzzword now, if we're looking for spiritual formation and life formation to happen in a worship service, if we're looking for us to be formed and shaped into the image and likeness of Jesus, it's only going to happen for Christians through the power of the gospel, the power unto salvation as Paul describes it.
26:05: So it's a way of saying what Cranmer's vision for what we might call now gospel -centered worship was dramatically shaped by and in a sense governed by the doctrine of justification by faith alone.
26:22: So Lafitte to him stood as a kind of a grammar, a way that he understood the structure of worship to properly speak, proclaim, and give the gospel of Jesus Christ.
26:35: Well, we're going to our first commercial break. If you have a question for Zach Hicks on his book that we are discussing,
26:45: Worship by Faith Alone, Thomas Cranmer, The Book of Common Prayer, and the Reformation of Liturgy, send in your emails to chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
26:53: c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
27:03: USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
27:08: Let's say, for instance, you have grown to a become an increasingly severe disagreement with your own congregation over worship, over liturgy, or perhaps you're even the pastor and you disagree with your elders over crucial issues involving worship and the liturgy and so on.
27:34: You don't want to identify yourself at this point. Those would be obvious reasons that would compel you to remain anonymous, but if you're just asking general questions about church history, about the scripture, about Thomas Cranmer, about liturgy, about worship, please just at least give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence.
27:57: That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Zach Hicks right after these messages from our sponsors.
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38:47: as soon as possible, because we have no idea when they're going to pull the plug on this wonderful offer where we will receive 100 % of the profits.
38:55: So please go to royaldiadem .com and mention Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. We are now back with our guest,
39:02: Zach Hicks, pastor of Church of the Cross in Birmingham, Alabama, and author of Worship by Faith Alone, Thomas Cranmer, the
39:09: Book of Common Prayer, and the Reformation of Liturgy. Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.
39:15: If you have a question for Zach Hicks, chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence.
39:22: Zach, you have written at least two books before this one on worship,
39:29: The Worship Pastor, A Call to Ministry for Worship Leaders and Teams, Before We Gather, Devotions for Worship Leaders and Teams.
39:38: There is likely something within modern evangelical worship that you find lacking, that you find less than biblical, that you find less than accommodating to worship and spirit and truth to its fullness, and I'm assuming that is the reason why you began an investigation and an exploration of Thomas Cranmer and the
40:09: Book of Common Prayer and the Reformation of Liturgy, etc. So why don't you tell us about what you believe needs reformation in the typical worship service of your average evangelical church in the third millennium?
40:26: I love that, yeah, and that's an apt description of some of the burdens that I've felt over the course of my ministry,
40:33: I guess the thread through all my books. The third one is
40:39: Before We Gather, and that's not out yet, so technically Worship by Faith Alone is book two,
40:45: Before We Gather is book three. But yeah, for me, what I have discovered in the worship services that I lead, that the tradition
40:56: I've inherited, in a sense has forgotten what it means to allow the gospel to govern and guide every aspect of it.
41:06: And it even has sort of come up to me within my own tribes when we speak of gospel -centered worship.
41:12: We tend to speak of, well, let's load our worship services with songs about the atonement, or let's just sing a bunch about Jesus and not about ourselves, those kinds of things.
41:25: And while those are good, and a part of it, what I've learned from Cranmer is that formation in and through the gospel goes much deeper.
41:34: So what Cranmer has taught me to see is an insight such as this one. We need to look at the structure of our worship services as much as the content.
41:43: So how I approach God, what I say to Him and what I sort of construct as what
41:50: He says to me through His word, and how I journey through that, in a sense, dialogue and process of encountering has just as much formative impact as the theological and verbal content of a worship service.
42:05: So if I'm thinking about the gospel, I need to pay just as much attention to how
42:11: God is approached as I do to what we say in our conversations with Him. A good example of this would be something as simple that Cranmer taught me.
42:21: If I'm starting a worship service, and my prayers and songs are filled with declarations about what
42:28: I'm doing for God, how I'm living for Him, how I'm sold out to Him and surrendered to Him, Cranmer would encourage us to say, you've gotten the cart before the horse.
42:39: If there is to be any offering of self to the Lord, it really does come in response to how
42:45: God has offered Himself to me in and through the work of Jesus Christ. And that has, in a sense, structural implications for the way
42:53: I approach God. And what's on the hook is ways of approaching
42:58: God that tend to start with me and what I bring to the table often form and shape us in ways that are, in a sense, anti -gospel.
43:07: And I'll even use this word, which can sound really provocative, anti -Christ. But I mean it quite literally.
43:13: If I'm approaching God, and the first thing I'm saying out of the please with my worship based on how sincere and sold out
43:21: I am, I am basically saying, I don't need Jesus. In order to approach God, I just need my own virtue, my own pedigree, my own good works.
43:32: And according to the scriptures, there can't be anything more antithetical to Christ and the gospel than that idea and that approach.
43:41: And so it has implications. And so when I observe evangelical worship in the 21st century,
43:50: I observe moments and structures that are filled with this kind of way of approaching
43:57: God, this kind of way of trying to drum up God being pleased with me and a kind of transactional approach to God will finally unleash the blessings of heaven in worship, unleash this powerful presence and experience of his presence as and insofar as I'm sold out, as and insofar as I display my sincerity and surrender to him.
44:22: And Cranmer has helped me to see from the scriptures that this is actually backward and God blesses before we're ever worthy of it.
44:34: And God offers me the blessings and the benefits of Jesus, even while I was a sinner, to use the language of Paul, even while I was yet unrighteous,
44:44: God came to me through Jesus. And that, actually, that approach of God has the power to unleash all the benefits and blessings of the powerful, joyful presence of the
44:58: Spirit. And I do think that that sits at the great reformation needed amongst reformation churches today.
45:06: We have an anonymous listener, and the anonymous listener says, I'm remaining anonymous because I work closely in ministry with my beloved brothers and sisters who are charismatic and Pentecostal and don't want to unnecessarily offend them in what
45:25: I am about to say. I was wondering what your thoughts were on a common trend that perhaps was more focused in and more dominated by charismatics and Pentecostals, where worship was an effort to bypass the brain and focus on the heart, where we would just open up our minds and empty them to allow an experience to fill our brains while we are worshiping and making our worship somewhat more sensual, not in the sexual sense, but just relying upon our feelings rather than how and who we are worshiping.
46:16: And the follow -up question about that would be, I was wondering if that is a problem as well in the
46:26: Evangelical Presbyterian Church in the United States, since I know it is one of the very few Presbyterian denominations that allows for a non -cessationist and charismatic position.
46:37: Right. Good question. One of the things that I actually loved about Cranmer that I found in his own way of talking about worship and in his own way of organizing and communicating worship in the form of the
46:53: Book of Common Prayer is that Cranmer didn't pit head against heart.
46:59: And actually, his very Augustinian and I would say biblical theology of the way of thinking about it is the summary that Ashley Null helpfully offers of Reformation theology generally, maybe
47:13: Philip Melanchthon, a reformer we might know less about more specifically. And it is this, what the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies.
47:23: And though Cranmer didn't say that, all our study of him would indicate that he assented to that idea.
47:29: And I say all that as preface to say, I am not one of those who pits emotionalism on the one hand and intellectualism on the other.
47:41: I've kind of come to the conclusion that the emphasis on emotions isn't bad.
47:47: What's bad is emphasis on emotions apart from or without careful engagement with the truth of God is really what the problem is.
48:01: And in a way, I share Jonathan Edwards' perspective in that when my emotions are engaged in worship rightfully, in a sense, and this is his quote,
48:11: I see truth in their proper colors. It's one thing to have a worship filled with the truth of God.
48:18: But when I not only have the truth of God, but have a rightly ordered emotion tethered to it, in a sense,
48:25: I move from apprehending that truth in a two -dimensional way to apprehending it in a three -dimensional way.
48:33: And so I think the rightful critique is not against emotions and the engagement of emotions in a worship service.
48:40: It is against emotionalism for its own sake. And that I do find in certain pockets of charismatic and Pentecostal theology, or rather charismatic and Pentecostal practice.
48:52: Because actually, if you listen to the best thinkers in the charismatic and Pentecostal traditions, what you find are very well thought out and informed biblical theologies of experience and the
49:04: Holy Spirit, emotions and the human body, and all those sorts of things. I've spent a lot of time there precisely because I see some of these kind of proto -ideas present in Cranmer when he writes, for instance, in his preface to the
49:19: Book of Common Prayer, that his purpose of this thing is that, in his words, that the hearts of the
49:24: English people might be inflamed all the more with love of God's holy religion. And funny enough, that line, if I were to translate it today, would sound an awful lot like the way a charismatic would speak about a worship service.
49:37: I want my heart to be on fire for Jesus as a result from experiencing his power and presence.
49:42: And I find all the desire there in And in Cranmer, I find it coupled with a strong commitment to the scriptures and commitment to the gospels as the seed.
49:53: So, I'm all about worship aiming at the heart because I think that that's where it begins.
49:59: And in fact, if we aimed worship at the head, we would be starting from the wrong spot, according to the biblical anthropology that Cranmer subscribes to.
50:08: So, yeah, I am interested in that, which probably isn't the most satisfying answer.
50:14: Even as I'd say, I share with the listener the critique of a lot of emotionalistic or, you know, worship that's just merely gauged toward having a haphazard feeling as opposed to, as the philosophers might say, having feelings that are tethered to truths and that are, quote, rightly ordered and those sorts of things.
50:37: And so, yeah, in the EPC, we've got a spectrum of churches, some of whom will appear like you're more, quote, conservative,
50:45: Presbyterian churches that are cessationist and express that and you can kind of feel that in the way the worship happens.
50:51: And then you've got churches that definitely appear more charismatic, even to the point of the typical sign gifts that are part of charismatic tradition.
51:02: And you have churches like mine that are attempting to kind of stand in the middle of both and not jettison either.
51:09: Highly liturgical, highly gospel -centered, highly filled with scripture and theological depth and truth and a kind of experiential and emotional willingness to put that all on the table as we go about those elements.
51:26: Yeah. One of my favorite contemporary theologians is Dr. Joel Beakey, and he is seeking in his preaching and teaching to revive an understanding and practice of experimental and also known as experiential
51:41: Calvinism. Yeah, yeah. And that goes right along with, I believe, what you were saying.
51:47: And we shall never forget that in order for our heads to be changed, we first need a heart transplant by God himself where he removes our hearts of stone and gives us hearts of flesh.
52:00: We have the spirit breathed within us and begin thinking differently. But we have to go to our midway break right now.
52:08: I hope that our listeners will be patient because the midway break is always a little longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1
52:16: FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program, they need to use the middle of the show because the
52:22: FCC requires of them to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio and all of their programming geographically to Lake City, Florida.
52:30: And they do that with their own public service announcements and other local things that they air in the middle of our show while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.
52:41: So please use this time wisely. We ask of you to write down as much of the contact information as you possibly can for as many of our advertisers as you possibly can so that you can more frequently and successfully contact our advertisers.
52:54: We hope that that often means that you buy their products, use their services, support their parachurch organizations, and visit their churches.
53:02: But when you can't do any of those things, there's one thing that every Iron Trip and Zion Radio listener can do if you really love this show is that you contact our advertisers and thank them for sponsoring
53:16: Iron Trip and Zion Radio. If you are really grateful that there are people and organizations out there that love this show so much, they share some of the wealth with which
53:27: God has blessed them with us. They're sharing their wealth with us so that we can remain on the air, and if you love the show, you should be thankful to them.
53:37: So please thank them at the very least. Also, obviously, send in your questions to Zach Hicks at chrisarnson at gmail .com.
53:43: chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give his first name at least, city and state and country of residence.
53:50: Please don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages of more of Zach Hicks. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.
54:11: I'm very excited to announce that my long -time friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the
54:19: G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.
54:32: I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.
54:45: And there's more great news. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.
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55:02: That's g3isir for the 30 % discount. Chris Arnson and I look forward to seeing you all
55:08: Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.
55:16: Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.
55:23: Go to g3min .org and enter promo code g3isir for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.
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59:08: Oh, hail the power of Jesus' name.
59:15: This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.
59:22: Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.
59:31: Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our
59:43: Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.
59:50: If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some
01:00:03: Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.
01:00:13: Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org, that's gracechurchatfranklin .org.
01:00:21: This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign
01:00:27: Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.
01:00:47: As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.
01:00:55: A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
01:01:06: Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.
01:01:14: They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship
01:01:20: God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a
01:01:25: God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
01:01:40: Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace
01:01:48: .com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.
01:01:55: Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.
01:02:05: Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget, folks, that Grace Covenant Baptist Church of Flemington, New Jersey has a new website.
01:02:19: Please make note. gcbc -nj .org. gcbc -nj .org.
01:02:31: Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the
01:02:39: Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big, penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the
01:02:51: Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the
01:02:57: Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.
01:03:03: This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.
01:03:09: Knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.
01:03:16: I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting
01:03:22: Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
01:03:30: I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com,
01:03:37: where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. I'm Dr.
01:03:52: Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,
01:04:02: Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.
01:04:10: It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim
01:04:27: Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island and beyond.
01:04:34: I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.
01:04:43: For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
01:04:50: That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.
01:04:59: That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
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01:08:43: frequently purchased generously, always mentioning Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:08:51: And by the way, folks, those of our listeners who may have a special interest in Thomas Cranmer, who have tuned in today, if you are
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01:09:09: They have Anglican titles from today and yesterday available, and a great mind of the
01:09:21: Episcopalian heritage that was a pastor in New York City in the 19th century,
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01:10:29: Chris Aronson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before I return to my discussion with my guest today,
01:10:35: Zach Hicks, on Worship by Faith Alone, Thomas Cramer, the Book of Common Prayer, and the Reformation of Liturgy, I just have a couple of very important announcements to make.
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01:12:51: Cross in Birmingham, Alabama, well send me an email because I have extensive lists spanning the globe of churches all over the planet earth that are biblically faithful, and I've helped many people in our audience in all parts of the world find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live, and I may be able to help you too, so send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:13:14: and put I Need a Church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Zach Hicks on Worship by Faith Alone, Thomas Kramner, the
01:13:22: Book of Common Prayer, and the Reformation of Liturgy, that's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:13:28: By the way, I want to remind our anonymous listener to please send me by email your full name and your mailing address, which of course will be kept private, because you have won a free copy of the book we are addressing,
01:13:43: Worship by Faith Alone, by Zach Hicks, and you will also, if you are a first -time questioner as well, you also receive a new
01:13:50: American Standard Bible absolutely free, compliments of the publishers of the new American Standard Bible, and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.
01:14:01: We'll be shipping that Bible out to you, along with that book by Zach Hicks, at no charge to you or to us.
01:14:09: Zach Hicks, we do have another question from Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, and Bobby in Hartsdale, New York says, isn't this diligence of Kramner to be
01:14:30: God -centered in worship rather than man -centered? Not only a clear revelation that he was thoroughly
01:14:37: Protestant, not some form of Anglo -Catholic, but it also should be a great lesson learned by our modern church that all too often tends to be man -centered and not
01:14:49: God -centered. My answer would be yes, I think you're right.
01:14:55: There's been, post Kramner, a lot of revisionist history about who he was, and surprisingly, this is an observation, by the way, made by the great
01:15:05: Kramner scholar and biographer Dermot McCulloch, that in the history of biography of Kramner, in subsequent generations, everybody's writing about Kramner in their own image.
01:15:17: And certainly when Anglo -Catholicism rises to the fore after the Oxford Tractarian movements of the late 19th centuries,
01:15:26: Kramner becomes viewed to a certain degree as Anglo -Catholic.
01:15:33: And yet, when we contend with what Kramner actually wrote, what he actually believed in the worship services that he actually attempted to roll out, we have someone who, yes, indeed does view worship as God -centered and view our rightful approach as through Christ alone, through faith alone.
01:15:53: That said, you know, I mean, the idea that worship is either
01:16:00: God -centered or man -centered, Kramner might find a bit too stark of a contrast, especially if, say,
01:16:09: Kramner read and believed the kind of teachings of Luther, which he did.
01:16:16: He really bought into a lot of what Luther had to say, and one of the ways
01:16:21: Luther would articulate theology is that theology starts with the sinning human and the justifying
01:16:29: God. And if that paradigm is at play in worship for Kramner, that means that there will be plenty of aspects of worship that will mention and focus on me and my issues and humanity, and certainly might even be described as therapeutic in the sense of providing deep healing comfort.
01:16:53: You find that all over the place in Kramner's work, just as I think you find it in the
01:16:59: Psalms. But I think in agreement with what the listener is asking, yes,
01:17:06: Kramner would indeed find himself very much articulating it the way that you have.
01:17:12: Thank you very much, Bobby, and guess what? You have also won a free copy of Worship by Faith Alone by my guest
01:17:19: Zach Hicks, so make sure we have your full mailing address so we can have cvbbs .com,
01:17:25: Crumlin Valley Bible Book Service, ship that out to you. We also want to thank our friends at IVP Academic, InterVarsity Press Academic, for providing with us a limited number of copies of this book that we are giving away today.
01:17:42: And let's see, we have another anonymous listener who says, the way we conduct worship in a church is one of the most sensitive and tragically divisive areas of Christian life that exists.
01:18:01: Churches are well known to have frequently split over issues involving how we worship.
01:18:07: How do we delicately and respectfully approach the leaders of our own churches when we think something is amiss in regard to the way we are worshiping?
01:18:19: What a great and tender and sensitive question to ask, even the willingness to say how do we delicately approach shows a lot of care and love, which
01:18:30: I find as someone who's been on the receiving end of a lot of complaints or a lot of concern about XYZ aspect of worship,
01:18:38: I appreciate the tone and the desire to express these things through love.
01:18:47: I think that because of the sensitivity of these things and because the enemy himself would like nothing more than to drive divisions into Christ's church, especially through that most sacred and beautiful thing that we call worship, we do our best by doing these kinds of things in the most relational way possible.
01:19:09: I know sometimes people feel the need to carefully, calmly, and thoroughly and articulately send something like an email so that they say it the right way.
01:19:21: But I often find that because these things are so emotionally loaded and sensitive, that they're best worked out relationally.
01:19:28: They're best worked out person -to -person, face -to -face, voice -to -voice. So even if you have to process your thoughts and in a sense organize them well in a way that will be non -anxious and non -reactive, even if you have to write them down,
01:19:42: I'd say if you're approaching a particular pastor whose job is to oversee the worship service, maybe spend some time getting to know them and getting to know even with an inquisitive heart.
01:19:57: Help me understand the motivation behind the choices made about worship.
01:20:05: I really want to know. I really am curious. So approaching with curiosity is great. Even as you say, I have these concerns, but before I just lob them,
01:20:14: I want to ask for your insight into why we do the things the way we do.
01:20:21: And opening up a dialogue like that in a way that's loving and relational is probably about the best you can do.
01:20:29: But yeah, if you come and you come on the attack with saying, worship is like this, and the
01:20:36: Bible says worship is to be like this, you've already kind of put yourself in a sort of us versus them framework that immediately creates a kind of context of a fight as opposed to dialogue.
01:20:47: So the approach is everything. And the more relationally and lovingly and humbly one can do that, probably first by asking questions rather than articulating accusations, the better, honestly.
01:21:00: So yeah, that might be what I'd recommend without knowing about the specific situation or the specific circumstances because these things need to be customized depending on what the scenario is.
01:21:11: Well, thank you, Anonymous, and please email me with your full name and mailing address because you've also won a free copy of Worship by Faith, the lone complements of IV Press Academic and also of CVBBS .com,
01:21:27: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. We'll ship it out to you free of charge. And if you're a first time questioner, you also get a new
01:21:34: American Standard Bible. So let us know. We have Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania who asks, previously
01:21:47: I have heard a guest on Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio program who is a fellow
01:21:53: Presbyterian who, although giving very high accolades to the
01:21:59: Book of Common Prayer and quoting from it, he actually believed that the blame could be laid at the feet of the
01:22:08: Book of Common Prayer for the destruction of expository preaching in the church because a calendar takes away from the following of sequential biblical study and exegesis and preaching rather than topical.
01:22:27: If you could respond to that guest and perhaps sway his opinion.
01:22:34: I appreciate that. Yes, that's been an ongoing debate whether the lectionary is a help or a hindrance to expository preaching.
01:22:48: Certainly if your view about preaching is that it is superior to preach sequentially through books and that is the best way to do it, then yeah, you will view the
01:22:59: Book of Common Prayer and the entire enterprise of engaging with a lectionary of readings less than that and it will be inferior.
01:23:09: I don't hold that opinion. I am okay. I don't think expositional preaching must require moving from chapter one of a book to its end to be truly expositional.
01:23:23: In fact, my theology of the scriptures is that to be truly expository is most about digging into the text until one comes to the bedrock of Jesus Christ.
01:23:38: And so, what I mean by that is a truly expository sermon is one that proclaims Christ from that text just as Christ did in Luke 24 when it says when he was on the road to Emmaus with Cleopas and the other person unnamed and it said, and beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he began to open up the scriptures and reveal to them all things concerning himself, meaning that Jesus opened the
01:24:03: Old Testament and preached Jesus there. And so, I don't think an expository sermon done well requires sequential moving through a book.
01:24:14: I think it's way more about doing the proper historical grammatical exegesis that prepares for the kind of proclamation of a text that proclaims
01:24:22: Christ from that text, which I think is decidedly biblical because I think the whole
01:24:28: Bible at any given point is trying to drive you to, in the words of Paul, Christ and him crucified.
01:24:35: So, for me, I don't subscribe to a kind of a book -by -book, verse -by -verse way of preaching as the only way to do expository preaching.
01:24:46: Therefore, lectionary work doesn't, for me, appear to be an enemy of good expository proclamation.
01:24:55: Well, thank you, listener. And if you could, that's Joseph in South Central Pennsylvania, please give us your full mailing address because you have also won a free copy of Worship by Faith Alone, compliments of IVP Academic and also compliments of CVVBS .com,
01:25:13: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. We'll ship it out to you. We have
01:25:19: Christopher in Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, and Christopher asks, have you officially adopted the
01:25:29: Book of Common Prayer in your weekly worship at your Presbyterian church?
01:25:35: And if so, what would make your church Presbyterian and not Anglican? Yeah, good question.
01:25:44: The language of officially adopted is hard because, you know, in our kind of Presbyterian makeup, we don't officially adopt any liturgies.
01:25:54: We officially subscribe to not officially adopting anything of that kind of nature of sorts, and each local church is, in a sense, within the bounds of our constitutions and things like that, allowed certain measures of freedom.
01:26:09: That said, I think the question is, do we utilize a kind of form of the liturgy that is akin to the
01:26:15: Book of Common Prayer? And I say, yeah, we do. It's a bit modified, and in a way, it digs back into earlier forms of the
01:26:23: Book of Common Prayer besides the ones that Anglicans use today, precisely because the irony is that I find
01:26:31: Cranmer's work a bit more close to the kind of Reformation theology that characterizes
01:26:40: Presbyterian churches that subscribe to things like the Westminster Confession of Faith and those sorts.
01:26:49: And what's a little bit lesser known about even the time of the formation of the Westminster Confession and what you could say is the origins of the
01:26:59: Presbyterian church is that not all Presbyterians were in favor of jettisoning liturgical forms and jettisoning even the
01:27:07: Book of Common Prayer. They were interested in reforming it. Richard Baxter, for instance, had his own notes on some reforms to the liturgy and his own version of that.
01:27:19: I was just actually reading it the other day. So, it's not full -blown anti -Presbyterian, at least historically speaking, to say that using any kind of fixed form of liturgy is improper, and I think there's a case to be made for the biblical basis of fixed forms of liturgy, even though it tends to not have characterized the
01:27:41: Presbyterian tradition over time. And I would say that we are ancestors of Cranmer, and by being ancestors of Cranmer, in a sense, we are digging into our own tradition a little bit.
01:27:55: And that might be a minority report. Some historians and liturgiologists might want to challenge me on that, but that's at least my take, and part of my reason for writing
01:28:03: Worship by Faith Alone is to do some inquiry into what might be valuable for my own local church. Well, thanks,
01:28:10: Christopher, and please give us your full mailing address, because you've also won Worship by Faith Alone, the book we are addressing, and cvbbs .com
01:28:19: will ship that out to you. Also, there is a common apprehension of evangelicals, perhaps more specifically from Baptist and fundamentalist backgrounds, there's an apprehension whenever the word liturgy pops up.
01:28:42: They either think of Romanism, or they think of robotic, rehearsed, rigid, dry, lifeless repetition.
01:28:58: And I could say that I was just recently, this past weekend, visiting the church of a friend of mine,
01:29:06: Bill Shishko, who for decades was the pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island, New York, who is now pastoring a church plant called
01:29:17: The Haven, a congregation of the OPC. And they have adopted at the church plant,
01:29:25: Bill Shishko has adopted a liturgy of worship that seems somewhat different from the way they worshiped at the
01:29:35: Franklin Square church. It is an interesting combination. I actually enjoyed it very much, an interesting combination of liturgy and congregational responsive reading that was combined with great, wonderful, grateful,
01:30:01: God -glorifying emotion. It was not a dull and dry, monotonous moaning of a liturgy.
01:30:11: And in fact, at the end of every responsive reading, you did not hear the very common, amen, you heard hallelujah, and thanks be to God, or hallelujah.
01:30:28: And it was just, and the way that even the congregation was reading responsibly, very enthusiastic, because Bill Shishko was basically breathing that atmosphere into the liturgy.
01:30:50: And I just found it very refreshing. We do,
01:30:56: I'm a Reformed Baptist, and Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania does some responsive reading, but it's not every
01:31:02: Sunday, and it's not throughout the worship service. The Haven in Comack, Long Island, they were really doing that throughout the entire service.
01:31:14: And the message was actually broken up, where usually you hear a sermon that starts, continues, and ends without interruption.
01:31:24: They kind of broke it up into segments, which was interesting. But any thoughts on the apprehension that liturgy, the word even, brings into the minds of people?
01:31:36: Because of course, that just means an order of worship. Everybody has a liturgy. That's right, that's right. Even charismatic and Pentecostal churches that are unstructured have some kind of a liturgy, usually.
01:31:48: But if you could please try to put people at ease or educate them on the fact that they should not be paralyzed in fear or repelled in fear by this.
01:32:04: Yeah, I mean, I would say that the critique there is always valid, mostly because liturgical churches have tended to demonstrate the worst, you know?
01:32:15: It tends to be that we as human beings can't hold things together and say if we were part of some kind of tradition that really prized emotional and emotional expression, and then we ping pong to something more cerebral that we somehow view the former as something we need to avoid, and so we become complicit in the very thing that creates the critique of the kind of dead robotic, unengaged liturgy that is, quote, just from the heart, you know, because we want to do things as Presbyterians say, decently and in order.
01:32:55: But when I look at the scriptures and I read the Psalms, the great prayer book of the
01:33:01: Bible and the prayer book of Jesus, I see those things held together. I see those things expressed physically, emotionally.
01:33:08: When I hear the call of God in the great commandment to love him with everything,
01:33:14: I hear wrapped up in strength my emotions and who I am. And when
01:33:20: I look at the global church and I see the witness of the global church across continents, what
01:33:26: I find is the anomaly is liturgical worship that is lifeless and it's rather incomplete.
01:33:33: So I share the critique and I say it doesn't have to be. It just tends to be that a lot of our examples that we've seen are that way, and I want to be part of solutions like the
01:33:45: Haven to say it doesn't have to. We can actually have both. In worship cultures, each style and each way of worshiping has its blessings and liabilities, and I would say one of the liabilities of liturgical worship that good liturgical leaders need to help fight against is the liability for it to downshift into mere ritualism and downshift into mere going through the motions.
01:34:11: That's a liability of that, just like there are liabilities of other kinds. And so it's incumbent upon the leaders of those worship services to lead in ways that actively recognize those liabilities with eyes wide open.
01:34:25: So I am for the schools that train liturgical leaders to lead from their personalities and their hearts and to engage the emotion of the texts that we're all reading, responding, singing, praying together.
01:34:39: We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who says, do you think that what has become known as the
01:34:49: Lord's Prayer was just a blueprint for Christ's disciples, or should we actually recite that exact prayer that we find in the
01:34:59: Scriptures during Sunday worship, especially if it is every Sunday, as many churches do?
01:35:06: And how do we do that without being guilty of vain repetition? And by the way,
01:35:12: I want to let our listener B .B. know that the Haven did include the
01:35:17: Lord's Prayer in that service. In fact, I have heard the Lord's Prayer recited in many
01:35:25: Presbyterian churches. But what is your response to that?
01:35:30: There's a couple of things going on there. Was it intended to just be a blueprint and not to be repeated word for word the way it's written in the
01:35:38: Scripture? And also, to include it, how are we not guilty of vain repetition if we do it every week?
01:35:47: Yeah, I don't know if I have a good answer to that question other than maybe to say, as far as intention goes, you know,
01:35:55: Christ, when you pray, pray like this. What does it mean to pray like this? Does it mean pray in this structure and style or pray these specific words?
01:36:04: I'm not sure. I'm not sure that it has to be an either or. I wonder if it can be a both and, because I do find benefit in the
01:36:12: Lord's Prayer providing structure and shape to how God is approached in prayer and in worship.
01:36:18: And I have read and found great insights in exegeting the
01:36:23: Lord's Prayer as a kind of theology of the structure of worship that's fruitful. And insofar as it is a blueprint for prayer, it would be valuable for churches to pray that exact prayer because one of the functions of worship is catechetical.
01:36:40: It is formational. And sometimes people tend to conflate repetition with vain repetition.
01:36:49: But that's an important modifier, vain. You know, Christ wasn't necessarily critiquing repetition.
01:36:56: In fact, Christ would have worshipped in the synagogue with liturgies that would have engaged repetition if he was chanting certain psalms.
01:37:03: There would have been plenty of that. So, it's not repetition per se and doing the same thing over and over again in and of itself that is wrong.
01:37:11: It is doing that robotically and kind of in vanity or in a way that might be doing it to seek
01:37:20: God's pleasure. If you think about the context of even Jesus' accusation of the Pharisees who were engaging that, one of the things
01:37:27: Jesus seemed to be concerned with was they were praying just to display their righteousness before God and others.
01:37:35: That's the vanity that he found there. It wasn't so much in the repetition. It was in the
01:37:41: Christless, gospel -less way of approaching God, which was basically saying, God, look at how great
01:37:46: I am. Whereas he would contrast that with the publican who simply prayed a prayer of confession,
01:37:54: Lord, have mercy upon me. And he found that praiseworthy because he said, that's actually what good praying looks like, is dependence upon the
01:38:01: Lord and acknowledgement that I need him. And so, I commend the publican against the Pharisee and eschew the vain repetitions of the
01:38:11: Pharisees, but I wouldn't want to lump that accusation in with every instance of repetition in liturgies and in the church.
01:38:19: I think a perfect example of vain repetition. I'm a former Roman Catholic, and not only former
01:38:26: Roman Catholic, but everyone who is presently in the Roman Catholic Church knows that when we are perhaps in a confessional booth or just in different times in our daily living, trying to live out a
01:38:47: Roman Catholic life, the prayers, even a good prayer that is known as the
01:38:55: Lord's Prayer, also more recently known as the Disciple's Prayer, that has been turned into vain repetition because I can remember clearly as a young Catholic altar boy and a student in a
01:39:11: Catholic school rattling off the words of the Our Father, as we actually called it, say the
01:39:20: Our Father. We would read that, or not read it, but recite it from memory with such rapid speed to get through the number of repetitions that we were told to say, especially in a confessional booth, that they just became sounds, and it almost became as if it was a magical incantation or spell of some kind.
01:39:48: You were not even paying any attention to what you were saying. You just learned like a parrot to repeat and regurgitate those words, and of course, they would include even idolatrous prayers like the
01:40:02: Hail Mary and other things. Mm -hmm. Yeah, and in that instance, you're praying words, but you're using those words, as you say, in an incantatory fashion in order to accomplish something else, which is to gain
01:40:18: God's favor or maybe atone for your sin, or you wouldn't want to say it like that if you're in the
01:40:26: Roman Catholic tradition, but you would say, in a sense, do penance or, you know, do the things necessary that would put you in the state of God's grace for you once again, and that's a different, funny enough, a different use than what
01:40:43: Jesus prescribed when he said, when you pray, pray like this. Well, we have to go to our final break, and if you have a question, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.
01:40:53: This is going to be a much shorter break, so send in your questions to chrisarnsen at gmail .com. We'll be right back with Zach Hicks right after these messages from our sponsors.
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01:46:04: Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,
01:46:13: Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai, in County Kildare, Ireland.
01:46:21: Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is
01:46:26: Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Plumbing, Georgia, are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.
01:46:39: Heritage Presbyterian Church of Plumbing is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.
01:46:45: Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.
01:46:50: Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the
01:46:56: Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great
01:47:05: Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,
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01:47:23: For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Plumbing, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com.
01:47:29: That's heritagepresbyterianchurch .com, or call 678 -954 -7831.
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01:47:57: I'm Dr. Joseph Pipa, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.
01:48:07: Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the
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01:52:08: One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is
01:52:13: Daniel P. Patafuoco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.
01:52:19: Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission, to foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God.
01:52:30: They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.
01:52:41: Patafuoco, demonstrating the reliability of scripture. To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611
01:52:57: King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ, going back to Adam and Eve.
01:53:08: This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the
01:53:14: Tower of Babel, and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.
01:53:23: Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.
01:53:32: You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.
01:53:39: Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.
01:53:47: Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. Becoming a
01:54:12: Parent so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.
01:54:47: Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. Welcome back, Zach. We have
01:54:53: Susan Margaret in Delphi County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know, was it enough of a problem in Thomas Cranmer's day for him to speak out against using worship as a form of entertainment?
01:55:11: Huh, that's an interesting question. I don't know that he would quite have said or the categories of entertainment would have been in his mind.
01:55:25: Certainly there would have been overlapping spheres of him viewing worship as becoming a spectacle where the people up front did the work of worship on behalf of the people of God who were there.
01:55:39: And once we put it in that language, yes, it was enough of a problem. And Cranmer found that deeply theologically troubling because he believed in the priesthood of all believers and he believed in the free proclamation of the gospel being given to everyone.
01:55:55: And he believed that Christ is the only mediator between God and humanity. So yes, he wanted to reform and recast worship in a way where people could have unfettered and immediate access to God through Jesus Christ apart from anything quote up front, whether that be the priest or the spectacle of the way that communion was celebrated, all those sorts of things to him.
01:56:24: Though he wouldn't have used the words entertainment, he certainly would have used words like superstition.
01:56:30: He would have used words that that danced around the idea that the people are sitting there as observers, not as participants in a worship service.
01:56:41: Well, Susan Margaret, you've also won a free copy of the book, and I'd like you to conclude the program,
01:56:48: Zach, by summarizing what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about this topic. Yeah, when
01:56:56: I investigated Cranmer and when I got into this,
01:57:02: I was someone who, just like everybody else, desperately needed to know, to remember that God loves me through Jesus Christ.
01:57:12: And if I were to summarize the takeaway of my investigation, it would be that God really is as gracious as he appears to be as we look at the face of Jesus Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection, and that that word unleashed for people really is the powerful thing and the only thing that can truly change hearts, change lives, and change the world.
01:57:39: Jesus really is enough. In a way, that's the burden of worship by faith alone is to observe how one man thought that Jesus was enough and then reformed worship according to that principle.
01:57:52: And I find myself on the other side of that deep dive and that academic work to be freshly inspired that Jesus still is enough, and maybe that's what we're here as Christians to do is to simply receive that and to give that to others, and perhaps that can be really centering amidst all the other things that it seems that Christians, quote, should be about.
01:58:16: We should be about the proclamation of that word that Jesus Christ is enough for us.
01:58:23: Amen. Well, if anybody is visiting or lives in or near Birmingham, Alabama, visit the website for Zach Hicks Congregation, crossbham .org,
01:58:35: cross the letter B, ham .org. And if you want to purchase the book that we have been discussing today about Thomas Cramner and liturgy, the actual title is
01:58:51: Worship by Faith Alone, Thomas Cramner, the Book of Common Prayer and the Reformation of Liturgy, go to cvbbs .com,
01:58:58: cvbbs .com, and if they don't have it in stock, they will order it for you.
01:59:03: I want to thank you so much, Pastor Zach, for being such an exquisite and superb guest.
01:59:10: I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater