Cultish: An Overview Of Classical & Zen Buddhism, Pt. 2

We know that Buddhism, as one of the major world religions, has a tremendous following. It has more than 153 million persons interested in various aspects of this religious philosophy or quest. Zen, which is in the United States, is engineered and designed to appeal to the American mind.

Today, Zen claims more than 5 million adherents in the United States and in Japan. And these are zealous promulgators of a philosophy which is attempting to bring man to nirvana. Now, what is this nirvana?

What is the goal of Zen? We hear it all the time, nirvana. It is reaching a state of enlightenment of the soul or spirit, whatever that may mean, until you are at last absorbed totally in the divine intellect.

The Buddha attained this. This is the most desirable of all states. Well, we had better be concerned with Zen Buddhism because it is growing so rapidly in the United States and penetrating so many college campuses that the average Christian is running into this all the time.

And the Christian says, I don't understand it. They talk about prayer. They talk about meditation. They talk about Jesus as being a son of God. Why, there must be some reality to what Zen is saying. And you know, there is.

There is some reality to what Zen is saying. It is a reality that is grounded in us as human beings. It is not grounded in the Word of God and not grounded in divine revelation. It is certainly a means of trying to find peace, but it is not God's peace.

Jesus Christ said, My peace I give you, not as the world gives do I give you. The Zenists are looking for enlightenment. They call it satori. They're looking for seeing into one's own nature, trying to understand and comprehend one's own nature.

But the deeper you go into your own nature, the more rapidly you find out that the heart of man is deceitful above everything and incurably sick. Who can understand it? And you can sit cross-legged on the floor and contemplate stones and contemplate pools of water or spiders, spinning webs, and all of the other trappings of Zen concentration.

And you are never, ever really going to understand what's wrong with you until you recognize that man fell from his state of fellowship with God in Eden and that that fall is not remedied by looking inside yourself.

That fall is remedied by looking outside yourself to God, who in Jesus Christ on the cross reconciled the world to himself.

Zen Buddhism and the Christian Response

All right. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to Cultish, where we enter into the kingdom of the cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts, one of the co-hosts here. I'm here with Andrew Sleuthenup in Harriman, Utah.

How are you doing, man? Good to have you back for part two.

Thank you, bro. I'm doing well. I'm very excited to be here again. And yeah, this is this has been great, dude. Last episode, phenomenal. Introduce our guests again, Jerry. Let's get this going.

We are back with Marsha, the Kraken Montenegro. It's always good and wonderful to have you with us. And like I said, the honorary clip is in part two, because I mean, part one, this is part two of the continuation of this conversation.

It is a pleasure to have you back. We are going to be focusing in on this episode, kind of really giving, doing our best to try and maybe give us some ideas of an apologetic, a response to the questions people have in regards to Buddhism.

You know, you talk about the cultural implications. We kind of talked about that in the last episode. You have people that are influential, like Steve Jobs. You have Jeff Bridges, George Lucas, you know, people from your time that we didn't recognize, but all the same.

There's people even now who are younger than us, the Gen Z people, that now the TikTok world. I'm starting to kind of feel like out of touch, trying to understand that world. It is an interesting world.

But this is a worldview. This is a world religion. This is a worldview that has implications that are antithetical to the Christian worldview, antithetical to the gospel. And we're commanded to give an answer for the hope that is within us.

And we need to be able to do that for people who have these sorts of beliefs. And what you heard there was sort of a summary of Walter Martin. He also, talking in his own lecture about Buddhism, I think he was always great because he was always able to articulate a lot of very complex issues in regards to comparative religions, but then show the relevance of the gospel to it.

And so I think you've also done that on a really great, you've done that with your ministry. And again, if you want to check out Marcia's content yourself, go to, tell us the website again, it's Christian Answers for the New Age, but what's the actual website domain?

Yeah, ChristianAnswersForTheNewAge .org. And on Facebook, I have a ministry page called Christian Answers for the New Age. Those two are two sources online.

Okay. Well, let's just start from the very beginning. You heard some kind of compare and contrast that Walter Martin was giving, but just for yourself personally, this is something you practice yourself.

This is an area of ministry that you're in. Your focus is to give Christian answers for the new age, and there's nothing really new about the new age. It's always a reformulation of Eastern religions in many different ways.

So just off of the get-go, what do you think for someone, just the average listener, they probably, they might have a friend who's kind of exploring this. They're probably exploring like a westernized version of Buddhism, and they're just trying to practice meditation.

What's a good starting point for someone to bring up the gospel, or where do you think is a good, where it's a good point to begin in all of this?

Well, I would probably ask the person what got them into it. Why did they think they would find an answer there, and what do they like about it? You know, I think that goes really for talking anybody into any kind of non-Christian, you know, belief system.

Why did you choose to pursue that? You know, how did you get introduced to that? Or, you know, and what are you getting out of it? Are you, do you think that there's some answers provided there? Because I, then you kind of give the person a chance to share what they think, or why they like it, or whatever.

Because you can't just start off by saying, well, you know, let me tell you why that's not really the right way to go. It's just not there. Obviously, they're not going to want to talk to you. So, and you want to be able to understand them.

You want to be able to understand what's going on with them that's causing them to look at Zen Buddhism, let's say. So they might say, well, you know, a friend of mine was reading this book, and I looked at it, and it had these really cool stories in it, where, you know, and this is what I, one of the things I was kind of captivated by in Zen Buddhism are these texts, where they have these different stories, like, you know, stories of the two monks going on a journey, and then some kind of conversation.

There's always some kind of profound thing, or maybe the guy who comes, he wants to learn, he wants to be a monk. So he goes to the monastery, and the head monk meets him. And the guy says, oh, I want to be, you know, I want to follow the path of enlightenment.

I want to, you know, be a monk, and really, you know, understand things, or whatever. And then the, so then the head monk says, okay, the first, most important thing you can do is get that broom over there and sweep the floor.

Now that's a very Zen Buddhist type story. It's very Zen Buddhist, because it's kind of like, kind of like, what, what? Why is he telling him to sweep the floor? How's that going to help him be a monk?

You know, it's supposed to be sort of almost sound nonsensical, because that's kind of what's, the way Zen Buddhism comes across. It's kind of like, well, and so, you know.

But you're learning a deeper truth behind doing something that seems simplistic or ridiculous.

Well, and it kind of like, supposedly, you can't think highly of yourself either, because there's this idea of, in Zen Buddhism, of beginner's mind. So you have to have, in fact, I read a book called The Beginner's Mind.

And you have to have the beginner's mind, which means you have to, your brain and your mind is full, and you have to empty it, because you can't get the, you know, the teachings, the Zen Buddhist teachings in there, if you have this other stuff in there, and that has to go.

So there's this idea, you have to start from zero, and then you can learn. So kind of sweeping the floor, it's kind of like saying, well, don't, you know, think you know anything, or you're going to learn anything today.

You just sweep the floor. And then you just supposedly, eventually, as the guy learns the teachings, if he's still sweeping the floor, he kind of begins to see this in a Zen Buddhist context, and it starts to make sense to him.

You know, I am just sweeping the floor, because everything in Zen Buddhism is about, you focus on the present moment. And that's what people say. And I didn't really get to talk too much about mindfulness before I talked about the goal of it.

But the way it's marketed in this country, it sounds good. Like they say, well, it's just being aware of the present moment, and not judging yourself, or, and things like that. So you hear this kind of, you know, way it's marketed.

But the reason they say you have to be in the present moment is because the past and future don't really exist, and all that exists is the present. And yet, once you realize that, see, you're kind of beginning to understand the true nature of reality.

So it's really just the present moment that counts. So I'm sweeping. That's all that I'm doing. That's all that's going on right now. That's all that matters. I'm sweeping the floor. So you kind of, it's this mindset.

You know, it's really, it's really like a worldview. It's a mindset. So there's those kinds of stories. And you have, you know, the guy, the monk tells the guy, the student, to look in the lake, and there's a reflection of the moon.

And he says, what do you see? And the, and the, so the student says, well, I see, I see the moon. And then the monk says, well, is that the moon? And he says, no, it's a reflection of the moon. So then he's supposed to like, maybe suddenly realize the truth that that's just a reflection.

That's not really the moon, but it looks like the moon. So things that look real, maybe aren't real. Although that's never said, it's implied. And they have the famous Koans, K-O-A-N, which are things like, what is the sound of one hand clapping?

And these are kind of riddles that are asked, that are supposed to, when you ponder them, are supposed to click and make you understand some great truth of Zen Buddhism. So that's, you know, what was your original face?

What's your original face before you were born? You know, that's another one, another famous one. So I was reading all this kind of stuff. So, and it seemed very profound to me because I had never, you know, heard this kind of thinking before.

And not even in the Hindu stuff I read. And so it's kind of understated. And yet at the same time, seems real profound. Like there's some kind of great truth being conveyed. And so I was, you know, asking somebody why they like it.

You know, they might say, well, I really feel like I'm learning or I'm really seeing things in a new way, you know? And then you're more able to talk to the person, you know? Like, what is it about seeing things in a new way that you think makes it right?

You know, or whatever. You know, you just have to kind of pursue. I think a lot of talking to people or into these things, you have to go by relying on the Holy Spirit to give you wisdom. And by your kind of your gut feeling in the interaction with a person.

And then of course, whether you know them or not, it's going to make a big difference. So somebody was met, you might talk one way. If it's somebody you've known, you've known for a while, you can have maybe more of a conversation or maybe ask more personal questions.

So, you know, a lot depends on the relationship there. But I think that you have to give people a chance to express why they find or finding something in this. And what is it that they think is so great about it?

Because if there's taking time to read about it or follow it, there must be something they think is right.

Mindfulness, Beginner's Mind, and Zen Stories

Yeah. True.

I think that's really good. And in fact, Andrew, you can give me your thoughts too. And maybe you can ask a question that's on your mind, Andrew, because I know your mind's always being blown. You always have questions in the back of your mind as always.

But you know what, actually, when you thought about, we're talking about like cultural influence of teaching someone something simplistic, like go sweep the floor. The first thing that came to mind, and I don't know, Marcia, this might be in your era or not, but I thought immediately of the classic scene in the Karate Kid where Mr. Miyagi, he's training Daniel's son and he wants to learn karate.

And he says, well, you need to go ahead and paint the house. And then you need to sand the floor. And so he's teaching these very simplistic house chores. And he's like, why haven't you taught me karate?

But all of a sudden he goes, show me sand the floor. Next thing you know, he knows how to block kicks and punches. And so he was secretly training him the whole time, this deeper meaning behind him teaching how to punch a block or a kick.

So I saw just a subtle similarity with what you were saying for sure.

Yes, no, really, that is a very Zen Buddhist kind of thing.

Yeah, yeah, and that's just something too, where again, I'm an 80s kid, like Karate Kid is one of my favorite movies. But it just, even in that, it's good to just to be aware that there's an underlying worldview that Mr. Miyagi had as his character.

I mean, I don't remember if it says specifically what his religion was, there could have been, there might've been like a Buddhist statue like in his house or something, but that would make perfect sense though, given what you're telling me, that he would then apply this the way that he did in this film.

Exactly, yeah. Well, yeah, I'm sure there's like, I think I've only seen clips of that. I may have seen Karate Kid 2, I'm not sure, but I can't remember it well. And I, yeah, there's definitely like Buddhism, or even that Panda movie that came out.

Oh, Kung Fu Panda?

Was that eight or 10 years ago? Remember the panda who's like in, that he's meditating?

Yeah, it's Kung Fu Panda. There's a couple of them. I never saw them, but I

Yes, Kung Fu Panda, I saw that. And, or one of those, I think there's more than one movie. And I think I even did a Facebook post about it because there was a lot of Eastern stuff in there. I mean, there really was.

There was a lot of the Eastern ideas, principles of a spiritual worldview that were in there. And I've seen that in a lot of children's programs.

Oh, definitely. And you'll see even books of, now they're trying to teach meditation for children.

Yes.

It's being popularized now in public schools. I mean, there's, I've seen, people send me stuff all the time. You know, some of the content is like, I only have to look for people to send me stuff. Is this cultish?

But no, I think there's one, it was somewhere, it was a preschool or a public school where there are children who are maybe four or five years old and they're in the Lotus position and they've got, you know, they're just going after it, you know, teaching them at a very young age.

And it shows again, that neutrality is a myth. And I'll just comment one thing, and Andrew, I'll let you ask the next question, is, you know, it is absolutely correct that while part of this is that there's not a definitive script they follow, like how to talk to someone who's in the new age, because it is very experiential.

So one, there is an aspect where it, you need to show, there is a saying that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. So I think there is an aspect where you need to be engaged and ask them those questions like, what got you into this?

And then, but be genuinely engaged with what they have to say. And then as a Christian, you have the high ground, you have a vantage point, knowing that these people know God and they're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness, and that they're ultimately looking elsewhere for what they can only find in Christ.

But also, this is one of my favorite passages, and this is Colossians 4, verse 5, where it says, walk in wisdom towards outsiders, making the best use of time, or I think there's another translation that says, making the best of the opportunity, and let your speech always be gracious and seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you may know how you ought to answer every single person.

And so that is something that it's a different, that applies probably differently with every single person in the New Age you talk to. So it's a matter of like, ultimately, this is a spiritual war, a spiritual battle that you're dealing with.

So you ultimately have to let the Holy Spirit guide you with what and how you say. And there might be scriptures that come to mind as you do it. So you just have to kind of walk in that light. So Andrew, what questions do you have?

Because I know that, especially with you, with the different evangelism that you're doing in Utah, the different involvement there, there's a huge, broad variety of just different worldviews and religions and just everything that's out there in Utah.

What questions would you have, say you engage someone that's more aimed towards the ideas of Buddhism or sort of applying that, what questions would you have for Marsha with how you would engage them?

What comes to mind for you?

Yeah, yeah.

First, I wanna make a comment just because of what was being talked about earlier, was sweeping the mind first. This is what was blowing my mind. I just wanna say it real quick, is it was reminding me so much of Scientology, right?

Like you have all of these engrams or whatever, and you have to go clear before you can become an operating Satan in order to get this other worldly knowledge. But first you have to get rid of everything else first.

I just, while you were talking about that, I just, I don't know, I was like, you know, L. Ron Hubbard or yeah, he probably got that from Buddhism and Hinduism, but it was just interesting to even think about that.

But yeah, like when we're thinking about Buddhists today or the culture today, Marsha, like what type of amalgamation have we seen within Western culture now with Zen Buddhism? Because I would assume that Zen Buddhism here is not even like the Zen Buddhism in Japan, right?

Like we get the even more pre-packaged lunch form or like fast food version of Buddhism. That's like what Americans want, you know? So what do you think about that?

Yeah, I think, well, you know, not having ever been to Japan and I don't know how much the culture there is, even though Zen Buddhism is kind of like the, I guess, sort of the official religion. I've been told by missionaries in Japan that even if the people are Buddhists, they still practice usually Shintoism.

Like they will go to the Shinto priests for certain things on New Year's or for weddings or whatever. And Shintoism was, you know, a indigenous religion there in Japan before Buddhism came, just like the Bon religion was in Tibet before Buddhism came.

And so I imagine that in the day-to-day life and, you know, people can make in the comments if they know better, that people may be kind of following Buddhism on an outward basis, but probably aren't totally living out the, you know, the ideas like what you would do maybe if you were a monk, you know.

So I'm not really sure how it really is over there, but I have a feeling that most people follow it kind of on a superficial level and then mix it with Shintoism. Whereas actually here, new agers who get into it, get into the ideas very, very seriously because that's what a new ager is on a spiritual path.

So they take spiritual things very seriously. So if they're getting into Zen Buddhism, they're gonna really know like, okay, this is what Buddha did. This is, we have to cultivate detachment. You know, this is why we meditate.

This is, you know, this is, hear these stories from these monks and they may actually know or be more familiar with the ideas of it than the average Buddhist in Japan. Now, I don't know if that's true, but that's kind of the impression I've gotten from different things I've read and from some things, you know, people have told me.

But of course, like you said, you know, we are in the United States and so we're gonna kind of Westernize and Americanize things. We tend to do that. You know, so for example, I don't think that probably a lot of new agers get into this idea of all the different realms.

Like in Buddhism, there's like nine realms of hell or something. And there's all these, I think I mentioned in the first episode that there's these different non-human beings. There's demigods, you know, there's demons, there's the hungry ghosts.

And this actually, a lot of these things sound, if you read anything about them online, it sounds very much like superstition. But this is a part of Buddhism. I don't know where it came from. I don't know if it was emerging of Buddhism with some folk religions or if it actually came from the teachings of Buddhism.

But there's a lot of kind of, there's sort of a fear there because, you know, if you don't, if you are doing things that are gonna cause a rebirth and it's not gonna be a good rebirth, then you might go and be in the, but the hells are all temporary, by the way.

They're not permanent. You might go into one of those hells or you might come back as a hungry ghost or something like that, which means you wouldn't be human, but you would be having a life as a hungry ghost somewhere.

I know some of the stuff I was reading, because I did a post on this like several years ago and I was reading more, actually, I think I learned more about it after I became a Christian because when I was into Zen Buddhism, I didn't hear about this stuff because this is a stuff that's kind of, it's too non-Western for Western followers of Buddhism.

It's like too out there, you know? And so, you know, some of the ideas are, I know that one of the ideas is, you know how the Dalai Lama is always saying, you know, we have to have compassion for all sentient beings.

You know, he's always saying that. And when Westerners hear that, I think they think, well, he's talking about people and animals. I think that's what most people would interpret that. Is that what you think, that that's how most people would hear it?

That's what I would think, yeah.

Yeah, what he is saying is he's including all those non-human beings like the hungry ghosts and the, you know, semi-divine beings, the half deities, half human, because that's actually not a desirable state.

So the idea is that if you're living one of those lives, you can only become enlightened if you're human. You can only be, you can't become enlightened if you're a hungry ghost or you're a demigod or you're a demon or one of those other creatures.

You can't become enlightened. Your path is kind of blocked and you're gonna have to come back. And until you come back as a human, you can't get on that path of enlightenment. So there's kind of this fear where you have to be come back.

So when he says have compassion on all sentient beings, what he's saying is let's have compassion on all sentient beings, especially those who are the non-human beings because they can't even get on the path of enlightenment.

You see, so you have to interpret things according in the kind of the Buddhist worldview because we hear him and we think, well, he's just teaching compassion. That's like what Jesus taught. You know, what's wrong with teaching compassion?

Well, it's what he means by all sentient beings that counts. And he thinks that the idea is that the more people learn Buddhism and become more enlightened, then that spreads the teachings. The more and more chances there are of people hearing about it and becoming enlightened because Buddhism is exclusive.

You cannot attain liberation except through Buddhism. So, you know, everybody thinks, oh, you know, they're probably, you know, Dalai Lama's so tolerant because he'll say things like, oh, you know, if you're Methodist, then you can stay Methodist.

And if you're Catholic, you can stay Catholic. And if you're Jewish, you stay Jewish. That's okay. You don't have to become Buddhist. You can just learn our meditation and, you know, if you want, maybe, you know, listen to some teachings, but you don't have to worry.

You can just stay Buddhist or stay Methodist or Jewish or whatever. Well, he says that because he thinks eventually you're going to get on the path of enlightenment. That's another thing about it. Like he, and that's why he's in no rush because you're going to just keep having rebirths, right?

So even if you die a Methodist, eventually you're going to get on the Buddhist path of enlightenment. So there's two things there that are going on. One is you compassion on all these non-human beings.

And the other is eventually everybody's going to be human and get on that path of enlightenment.

Compassion, the Conventional Self, and the Five Aggregates

Yeah.

Well, even just one thing that comes to mind too is that talking about we can't dealing with neutrality being a myth and looking in just looking at the actual implications. So just even the word compassion, can you actually give an accounting for compassion within the worldview of Buddhism?

Because as a Christian, I can give an accounting, for example, that verse that I read about, let your speech be seasoned with salt, which you know how to speak. We know how you need to know how to speak with each person that life and death is in the power of the tongue.

And the reason being is that, my view of metaphysics and my view of reality is that I'm talking objectively via God's revelation. This person is an image bearer of God that needs to be treated with dignity, respect.

Even though we have worldviews that are opposed to each other, there's ways I need to conduct myself because they are a unique self. They are a unique individual in which you approach them. How, within the worldview of Buddhism, how do you account for compassion?

What are you giving compassion to? If indeed, if the self is an illusion, wouldn't it be like, how am I, I'm an illusion. How does an illusion portray compassion to another person who's an illusion when in reality, all of that is, we're actually connected to something outside of ourselves, which is impersonal.

So in a sense of me, it just seems that they're trying to really borrow off Christian capital to say that there is a unique individuality. They're presupposing a level of individuality between the two persons.

I mean, the idea of compassion requires some level of distinction. How do you have that distinction if they're both an illusion? That's just the thought that comes to mind.

Right, right. No, and I can see why you're asking that. I think the one thing is that compassion, he means it more as this general attitude that we're hoping will spread the teachings of Buddhism. Because that's the way you really show compassion is to spread the teachings of Buddhism because then more people can learn about it and become, get on the road to liberation.

So that's really what compassion is. Not that they teach, because then the Eightfold Path has to do with ethical living and not stealing, and not, you don't be mean to people. That's considered a bad thing.

But it's not compassion like the way we would mean it as a Christian or the way Jesus showed it to the sick, when he healed the sick, or when he talked to people who were being ignored or were on the way down at the bottom of the totem pole in society.

Jesus was showing a true, of course, godly compassion and love, which you can't, you won't find in Buddhism. And I think as far as, well, how can he say that? And how do you interact with another person as individual if yourselves don't really exist?

They have something called the conventional self. The conventional self is the self that you think you are and that you're living right now in this life. So you have this kind of self that's built on, actually, it's called the five skandhas, or the five aggregates.

And the five aggregates are like the intellect. It's like thinking, your thoughts, your feelings, your experiences, your ideas about what you're experiencing. There's like five of them. And if you look them up online, you'll find sometimes the categories use different terms.

But those five things, those five aggregates are what the self, because of those five things, you think you have a self. So because I have memories and I have these feelings and I'm having this experience right now, I know I have a self because I'm feeling it.

I'm experiencing all this, I'm reacting it. I'm going through it, nobody else is going through it. So this shows I'm an individual. Well, you think you are because of those things, but it's just kind of a false self that they call the conventional self.

And you kind of, because you're in this life and you're in this material, this world of form, you have to interact as though you are an individual, even though you really aren't.

Right.

Okay.

No, I appreciate that. Let's go ahead and do this for the next sort of question. This will be more of a clip. This is similar to, you know, we did a couple of clips in our episode a while back on Witch Talk.

So this is a clip, even though you can't see it, this is a young man. He appears, he's on a beach and he has his own TikTok. And he appears to be in some sort of, well, it appears to be Tibetan monk kind of attire with that certain type of, it's like a dark orange, I think it is, or something of that nature.

And he's asking just questions about seeking enlightenment. So this is, so the question is, why are those seeking enlightenment so miserable? So what I'll do is I'll just play this, because again, this is just a, we're kind of taking a pulse of the marketplace of ideas, especially with the younger generation.

And then we could just figure out how would we respond in real time to someone to this sort of conversation going back and forth in this particular area. So let's take a look at this.

We only lose what we attach on to. For example, if I had a girlfriend, right? Yeah, I love you, I care for you. I want you to be happy. I will be there for you through your thick and thin, through the darkest days, through happiness and sickness and health.

But I am cautioned that yeah, one day you might leave me. We need to caution ourselves that one day they might leave us. We need to caution ourselves that one day they might die. And when that happens, and when we're clingy and attached to them, it's gonna be a very devastating day.

So we embrace these things, accept things as they are, and just enjoy the present moment with them while you have it. Clinging on to them, it's not gonna do you any good, because people don't last forever.

They're subject to suffering and rarely can you control anything.

So just the context as well, too, there's a question, he's answering a question from another person on TikTok, and the question says, how can you be unattached to someone you love? Doesn't seem to make too much sense to me.

So I think he's answering the question, that's what he's making that statement in that light of answering that question. So just off the get-go, like what comes to mind me? This is a young man, you know, and the person asking this question is probably seeking, trying to make sense of the world, and maybe he's inquisitive, maybe Buddhism is the right answer for me.

Just off the get-go, given your experience, how would we answer something like that?

Yeah, I would say that, you know, that sounds very good hypothetically, but really, when you really do love somebody, you're committed to them. You know, if you really, truly, as this is a spouse, a husband or wife, you're called to be committed to that person, and emotionally, you do become committed to them.

You can't say, I'm gonna love you and enjoy you today, but realize that you might not be there tomorrow, because then you're, you know, you're actually distancing yourself from them. You're not truly loving them, because you're kind of preparing yourself for living without them.

You know, it's kind of like he's saying you can do that. I don't think you can really do that emotionally, or I think if you try to do it, then you're going to hold back in some way in that relationship.

You're not really going to really have a deep bond with that person, because you're like always, I'm just gonna be in the present moment. This person could die tomorrow. They could leave me next week or whatever.

So you're holding back. You're not really fully giving yourself to that person in the sense of really loving them. I don't mean fully giving in the sense of, you know, you're gonna live for them and nothing else, but that, you know, committed as somebody who loves them, whether it's a husband, wife, of course, in Christianity, it wouldn't be girlfriend, boyfriend.

It should be husband, wife or child. You know, you're committed to that relationship, to that child. And, you know, I'm not gonna think, well, one day you're gonna grow up and I won't, you know, I need to get ready for not having you around, you know, so I'm not, then I'm gonna kind of hold back.