Interview: Jeff Durbin on Addiction

Hey, what's up everyone? This is Wade Orsini with Apologia Church Utah. I'm here today with a special guest, my very own pastor here at Apologia Church, Pastor Jeff Durbin.

How you doing, brother? Good, good. Good. Thank you for being here today. Absolutely. We're talking about a very important subject, something that I think is going to be very important when we get to Utah, when we get boots on the ground and really start ministering to the people there in the state of Utah.

So I have a couple questions for you. Some things that I think would be a blessing to the church at large.

It would be a blessing to people maybe struggling with this, but today we're going to talk about addiction.

So I have a few questions for you. I was hoping you might be able to first describe to us, brother, what has been your experience in ministering to people in addiction throughout your life since you started your ministry?

Yeah. So Apologia Church started at a drug rehab at the family building in a drug hospital.

It was an around the clock rehab, detoxification, doctors, nurses, all that stuff.

And I was the chaplain over the Christian program there that they had for, they had a secular track and they had a

Christian track. And so I was in charge of the Christian track. And so my experience, I've seen God save and transform countless people through the gospel and basic Christian discipleship.

I came to Christ out of drug and alcohol addiction as well. And so I never had planned to have a ministry in the area of addiction.

It was just something the Lord providentially ordered himself. I was never looking for the opportunity to do what

I was doing. It literally fell in my lap. And I've seen the devastating effects of drug and alcohol addiction on families, relationships.

I've actually officiated the funerals of people that I was just ministering to or sitting with the day before or two days before.

So I've seen drug and alcohol addiction kill people. And I've stood over their dead bodies preaching sermons after they died because of their addiction.

And I've seen at the same time, God raised dead people to life. People who were struggling with addiction their entire lives, totally freed and transformed from that old life through the power of the gospel, the presence of God's spirit.

And like I said, just basic Christian discipleship. Right. Amen. Praise God. In fact, not a lot of people know the origins of Apologia Church.

Some have heard it. Some of us have been here long enough to have even experienced it at our church.

But even in the Valley, we were known as what? That drug church. That drug church. I heard numerous people referring to us as, oh, that's that drug church.

Because if you came to Apologia, in the early days of Apologia, everybody there was on detox medication or they were in halfway houses or they were coming out of addiction.

And so families were disrupted and destroyed and those sorts of things. It was a very rough looking crowd, but it was glorious.

I mean, brand new believers in love with God, very zealous. And yeah, that's where we started. And we were known in the

Valley as that church that people sent people to who struggled with drug and alcohol addiction. Because they felt like you guys knew how to minister to these people.

Yeah. We were focusing on a truly gospel -centered and Christian approach to drug and alcohol addiction.

Right. Amen. So I wanted to read some statistics to you that I think will be startling to our listeners.

I think even when we had presented them to you and the elders, they're pretty shocking to you guys.

Yeah. Things that most people don't think about when they consider the state of Utah.

Conservative state. By all accounts, a religious state. Moralistic is what people think when they consider the state of Utah.

So check these out, brother. It says that Utah is the seventh highest in drug overdose between 2013 and 2015.

Seventh highest for drug overdose. It says that there's a 400 % increase in prescription drug deaths since the year 2000.

Okay. And only 1 in 10 people, Utahns, receive treatment for substance abuse.

Only 1 in 10. So obviously, there's something going on there. When you hear these stats, brother, why do you think these things...

Why is addiction such an issue in the state of Utah? If people are listening, they're going, how could that be?

Why Utah? A religious state, right? Everything's supposed to look beautiful and everyone's lawn is manicured and looks wonderful.

So the problem of addiction, we would hold a different perspective than many people today.

It used to be seen, actually not very long ago, addiction was seen through the lens of scripture in a biblical worldview.

Addiction is, of course, something someone is choosing to do. They're making a choice to put the substance into their body or to pursue this or that thing, whether it's drugs, alcohol, or sex, or whatever the case may be.

And we refer to addiction to alcohol as drunkenness before. In the past, that's what it was.

And it was really fairly recently in history that the term alcoholic was coined and the disease model of addiction was highlighted.

You will never not be an addict. You are someone who is an addict. You have the disease of addiction.

That's your new identity. It's your identity. And a famous person named Aaron Sorkin, he's a famous writer in Hollywood. He was quoted in an article essentially saying, you don't ever get healed from an addiction.

You just go into remission. You're never not going to be an addict. And that, by the way, is a very popular conception of addiction in the world today is that you have the disease of addiction.

That's your identity. That's why in AA meetings, you'll see people 20 years after not having a drink in a meeting saying, hi,

I'm Bob and I'm an alcoholic because they have the disease of addiction. But if you look at scripture and think about what the biblical worldview portrays in terms of addiction, you see a very different story.

Are there chemical aspects to the problem of addiction? Yes. And you have to address those. It's great to get those addressed medically in terms of detoxification.

So it's safe and comfortable. That's a great benefit and a grace even to people.

But the problem of addiction isn't merely chemical. It's not something that's just happening in this three pound brain in your skull.

The problem of addiction from a biblical perspective is a problem of the heart. It's a problem of our relationship with God.

It's a distorted relationship with God. We're image bearers of God and there are inescapable needs and an inescapable vocation for every image bearer of God.

Needs in terms of image bearers of God were created to be in fellowship with God, to know

God, to enjoy God forever, and to be, of course, in right relationship with those around us. But this is a fallen world and we're broken.

Our relationship with God is separated because of our sin. And if you have a person who doesn't know

God, it doesn't mean that they're not going to continue to be an image bearer of God. They're going to be an image bearer of God and live out that image of God in a way that's disrupted, so rather than going to God for those inescapable needs as an image bearer of God, whether it's the problem of loneliness, anger, a lack of peace, anxiousness, fear, a desire for pleasure, whatever the case may be, these things are innate.

They're built in because we're in God's image made to be in a relationship with God forever. And so biblically speaking, when we think about the problem of addiction, it's really a problem of false worship.

It's pursuing in an idol what you can only actually have in God. It's settling for bootleg pleasure, bootleg joy, rather than where it really is in God's presence as there are pleasures forever.

And so really the problem of addiction is a problem of, of course, sin, a problem of rebellion, a problem of idolatry.

It is, it's a relationship of the image bearer of God to the true

God where there's an exchange going on rather than going to God for my freedom from loneliness.

I go to the bottle, right? Or if I'm an anxious person, you know, whatever the reason is, if I'm anxious or fearful, it's the person goes rather to the heroine to feel peace and not be so anxious, right?

Or they go to the Percocet or to the Dilaudid or to the

Vicodin to feel a sense of peace, right? A person who is, you know, always, always angry might go to the bottle to try to calm their anger problem down or to satisfy that need.

Or it's the, it's a false pursuit of pleasure. A person goes to the ecstasy because they want pleasure because they're made in God's image and designed to desire pleasure in God and in His creation, but they go to the pills instead.

And the same problem with sexual addiction, Paul actually defines in Colossians chapter 3, sexual addiction as something of the flesh and he says it's idolatry.

So scripture gives you the certain knowledge and claim that sexual immorality is idolatry.

It's false worship because you're trying to engage in something that is distorted, disruptive, disrupted, it's broken.

You're trying to find satisfaction in this relationship or this thing that can only be found in God or found in the way that God has truly created things in a harmonious sexual relationship between husband and wife.

And so the problem of addiction is an exchange. It's false worship. It's bootleg worship. And the problem comes first and foremost because we're fallen and we're in God's image, but we're inescapably in God's image and we will always pursue what an image bearer of God is designed to pursue.

But if our relationship with God is disrupted, you're going to pursue it elsewhere. You're not going to try to find it in God. And so the answer is ultimately, of course, first and foremost, a relationship with God that is brought to peace and reconciliation.

And that's only through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, receiving the gift of eternal life.

But with that also comes the benefit of regeneration, God's spirit living within us, causing us to hate the idols, causing us to desire first and foremost, the true

God over the false God. And so when we talk in terms of transformation, what takes place when there's redemption?

Well, it's not just redemption. It's transformation. It's now a new heart that longs for God, longs for true pleasure, longs for true freedom, longs for true peace.

And that's something that God does. A lot of people don't like to hear that in the addiction industry, by the way, that this is something that is totally miraculous.

And I make no apologies for that because not only do I know it experientially, it's what happened to me, but I've seen

God do it experientially in so many countless others. But also I have the certain word from God, the revelation from God that says, this is something that God does.

You see, what's interesting too about the Christian worldview related to the problem of addiction is that when Jesus is in the

Sermon on the Mount and giving this epic, most powerful sermon in the history of humanity, most popular sermon in the history of humanity,

He doesn't first divide people up into groupings and say, okay, all my adulterers, you sit over here.

All my thieves sit over here. All of my people addicted to alcohol, all my drunkards, you sit right here.

All my sexually immoral, you sit here. No, the problem of sin and the answer of the gospel is something that is comprehensive.

And when Jesus speaks to groups of sinners, He doesn't compartmentalize and say, let's put all my drunks over here because you have a very particular need that can only be handled with an

AA group. You need the gospel and peace with God and then starts the path of basic Christian discipleship, knowing

God, experiencing God, being transformed by His truth, believing His word over your own inner monologue.

Those sorts of things, just as basic Christian discipleship. No, that's really good. You've driven through there plenty of times for going up to debates, doing general conference outreach.

When we've done our church planting scouting, you've seen on the interstate, on the I -15, the opioid crisis, pornography addiction.

In fact, some people don't even realize Utah is the number one state with pornography addiction.

And so you mentioned sexual addiction, all those things. So you're driving down the interstate.

You're just bombarded with that. Again, thinking about Utah, thinking about the fact that the large majority of the whole state is

LDS. What's playing into that? You mentioned the sin.

Yeah, the answer is the gospel for Utah, Texas, Arizona, California.

It's the same. So Utah's solution is the same solution necessary for California, Oregon, and all the rest.

But in terms of why would you see such an amplified version of the pursuit of these things?

I think a number of answers can be given, but I think one of the issues in a state like Utah with a religious organization and control like the

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints is there's an expectation that we become exalted to become gods of our own planets through our own righteousness and obedience.

Think about what Mormons are hoping to attain to. Here then is eternal life to know the only wise and true

God, and you've got to learn to become gods yourselves the same way all gods have done before you. That's a lot of pressure.

That's the King Follett discourse, Joseph Smith. By the way, it's a distortion of what Jesus says. It's not what

Jesus said. Here then is eternal life to know the only wise and true God in Jesus Christ whom he has sent. That's eternal life, knowing

God, knowing Christ. But Mormonism distorts that and says, you know, you need to become a god one day yourself.

Well, what does a person do who thinks that their ultimate goal is to become a god or goddess of their own planets, especially when they're told that in order to be really at peace with God and to make it there, you have to be righteous in yourself.

You have to look like a god, behave like a god, be righteous like God to get your own planet one day.

Well, it's going to create an atmosphere where everybody around is trying to be very, very protective of their own unrighteousness.

If I'm failing in any way, does that mean I can become a god one day? Or do I look like I'm righteous enough in the eyes of the church or to my fellow man?

Or am I worthy to become a god one day? I mean, everything is about externals. I hope that I'm righteous enough.

I hope I look righteous enough. I need to look like I have everything together. When you have a religious system and order like that, it creates essentially an environment where people have to be not honest about their struggles and their sin so there can be healing.

Scripture says, confess your sins to one another so that you'll be healed. Christian churches should be in environments where we're willing to be humble and say,

I need help. I'm struggling. God's at work in me, and I hate my sin, and I need some encouragement. I need help.

Well, the Mormon church, because of its doctrine, because of its theology, militates really against that kind of help because what's the expectation?

Righteousness is attained through my own personal obedience and my keeping myself ordered and together. And so when you take that problem and take the other problem of fallenness and image bearers of God who are in a broken relationship with their

God, needing to have these things satisfied, loneliness, anxiety, the pursuit of pleasure.

Now you've got one problem exacerbated by the other problem. Sure. And so there can be a lot of ways to mask that pain of the fallen image bearer of God who truly is anxious, who truly is lonely, who has a very distorted pursuit of pleasure in their life and peace.

And so because I have to look righteous, and yet I have all these needs, and I'm fallen, and I'm going to find satisfaction elsewhere, where do

I go? I don't have the true God. So I go to the false God for satisfaction. And in terms of what you talk about when you relate the issue of, you know, only one in 10 people is seeking help in this area.

I think it comes down to that problem of we have to look righteous enough. We have to look like we've got it all together.

It's one of the things that you'll see is I love Salt Lake City and the surrounding areas. I love the communities.

They're beautiful. It's well -ordered. But everyone has to have this external sort of appearance of I've got it all together.

I've got the perfect family. We're holding it all together. We're on our way to becoming gods one day. Everything looks ordered where there's a lot of sort of a desire built in there to hide all this brokenness, to hide all these struggles.

It's not like they're going to go away. You can hide all you want, but the image of God is going to pour out of you.

And that need for a relationship with God that is whole is inescapable. And so where will you find satisfaction?

If you're not going to find it in the true God, if your relationship with God is not a relationship that's reconciled to God through Christ, you'll find satisfaction elsewhere and you'll probably be apt to hide it.

Absolutely. Yeah. You know, that makes complete sense. And it sounds like no matter where you're at, all across the world, the problem is sin.

The problem is self. The problem isn't a disease that we've been born with.

The problem is sin. And we have to be reconciled to a holy and righteous God. And that's only through the true

Christ of Scripture. And that's where true transformation and peace and reconciliation comes from.

Yeah. And I'll just say a final word to this. A lot of people who want to have a package that they can deliver to somebody and say, here's the system.

Here's the steps. Here's the way you can beat your body in this objection. A lot of people don't like the

Christian message that this is a miraculous gift and work of God. He does this.

He does it on his terms. Yes. He does it through his word and through his Messiah. A lot of people don't like that because it takes it outside of human control.

And it probably angers people to think, well,

I can't have the box set of freedom from addiction with all the steps that go into this, that it's a work of God that he does through his

Messiah, through his word and through his spirit. But I make no apologies for the fact that it's completely miraculous.

And by the way, that is actually the hopeful message the most addicts are grateful to hear is that this isn't something that you can do.

You're right. You're right. Can't white knuckle this one. Yeah, you can't do this. That's one of the things

I used to say in the hospital all the time is I have good news for you. You can't do this. You won't be able to accomplish this in yourself.

You can't. It's either going to be something that God does miraculously by his spirit through Christ or it won't work.

Like you need a heart. You need a heart transplant. And that's a spiritual thing that only God can do. And so the good news is, is, well, the bad news is you can't do this.

The good news is you can't do this. God can. Amen. Amen. That's really good.

That methodology, that biblical approach to addiction is exactly,

I know what you guys have been raising us up to do. Myself, as you've been training me to become a pastor at Apology of Utah to implement truly just that gospel saturation dealing with this as any other form of idolatry, right?

So that is definitely something we want to do. We actually call it our Redeemed Rebels Ministry, right?

We've been doing it for years. That was my specific response to AA. AA, Alcoholics Anonymous.

My response was we need a biblical pursuit that's gospel -centered here that focuses on scripture and Christ and redeemed rebels.

The problem is sin, so we need to be redeemed. And our problem is not that we have the disease of addiction.

The problem is we're rebels. So Alcoholics Anonymous, I wanted to respond with a biblical category of, no, you need redemption from sin and your problem is you're a rebel.

Your addiction problem is rebellion. Yes. Yes. So we're very excited to take what we've learned and to bring it to the state of Utah.

And I think it's going to bless people. I think it's going to make an impact there for all the residents.

And we're going to open up that kind of counseling to a lot of different people, even to the LDS. So thank you,

Pastor Jeff. We appreciate your time in taking a look at this together. Ultimately, the solution is

Christ. The gospel is the solution, above all things. So thank you for this. For those watching, you can go to apologiautah .com

to learn more about what we're doing. There you can see our story, our timeline, learn more about the campaign that we have going to get there.

And if you feel so led, you can click the donate button and you can give one time or monthly. We appreciate anything that the

Lord has laid on your heart. And obviously, please pray for us. Pray for the plant. Pray for what

God is doing to bring the gospel to the state of Utah. And please pray for those with this sin of addiction, this idolatry, that they can find hope and help in Christ.