Inside the Mind of Manson

Apologia Studios

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All right, welcome ladies and gentlemen to Charlie's world Wow in a cultish true crime exclusive or our first cult of true client true crime

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Andrews super sleuth and a super sleuth of the show. Yeah investigator. We are you are the You are the forensic investigator detective

00:23

And so we are excited to dig into this. We are here with Someone who's one of My dear good friends.

00:32

We've known each other for such a long time. You are a member of apology a church You are newly married you are

00:39

A mom now and a mom excited mom to be so we're very happy for that Oh, thank you.

00:45

I am so happy to have you on we've been waiting for this for so long. So You just tell everyone just a little bit about yourself.

00:53

So you are a true your huge true crime fan, right? Right? So, my name is dr.

00:59

Robin Hall I'm a doctor of clinical psychology here in Phoenix and Jerry is right

01:06

This is we've been friends for a lot of years and I'm so excited to do this because it combines my three favorite things

01:13

True crime psychology and Jesus. So yes, I think it's gonna be a really neat episode or episodes and Yeah, I'm really excited to get started.

01:23

So a little bit about me I said, I'm kind of a true crime nut

01:29

Follow all of the major true crime podcasts probably more than I should even And consider myself, you know an armchair detective at that but I have a very extensive background and expertise in trauma, which is extremely fitting for Looking at Charles Manson and right and his family, you know quote -unquote.

01:51

So I think there's a lot that we can learn from this as Christians and I'm really about how it speaks to total depravity and our need for Jesus.

02:03

So I think it's gonna be yeah and especially right now, I mean things are so uncertain in the world and there was even in and Manson's time his upbringing and What led him what everything leading up to 1969?

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There's so much craziness and uncertainty in the world and that set a precedent to create a movement like that and Now we're saying with all the craziness going on we're gonna there's a you get when we start laying out everything people see there's an opportunity for History in many ways to repeat itself, right?

02:37

And I think what's what's really good is that we Manson has been discussed has really been explored

02:44

By multiple different angle. There's multiple different books. I read it I read a couple of different books leading up to this obviously once upon a time in Hollywood fantastic film really enjoyed it and you have

02:55

Quentin Tarantino's take on it and You really have a public that's just fascinating to buy it just the name

03:02

Charles Manson 50 years later Every generation is kind of that impact name kind of like Jim Jones and shiver

03:09

Yeah, right you meet everybody immediately conjures this picture, right? You know,

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I mean in my mind's eye I can see that crazy detached I Mean real like really insane depraved look, you know that famous picture of him, you know coming into the courtroom

03:29

I think to what you were saying Jerry There's really a lot of parallels if we look at the culture of what's happening right now and the culture of the late 1960s which is when this crime

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Took place these crimes took place lots of race race issues were happening then

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There was a lot of you know rebellion and the hippie movement even a lot of stuff on the forefront

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Civil unrest and I think that I mean the parallels between what was what was happening in that Time frame and what's currently happening are just I mean, it really couldn't this couldn't be

04:06

We're just talking about this Absolutely, and so when it comes to dealing with Manson, I think that we've always wanted any sort of topic we always want it

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We don't just sort of want to regurgitate what everyone else has said We want to try to the best of our ability to give an approach.

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That's unique and fresh I think one is the one obviously is to give it a really deal with cult

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This is an example of why you need to deal with cults from a Christian perspective Because there are a lot of true crime podcasts or even a lot of really well -written historically documented books

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The one I think that I believe it's just called Manson is the book that I read a really excellent historical account and But they deal in the same way.

04:46

It's the same guy who wrote that you wrote to Jonestown so the same author they kind of really deal with the sociological environments and the really the historical aspects of What made this group when we made the

05:00

Charlie come to rise and then you have this like the psychological aspect Which we're going to get into about the reality is that?

05:08

relationships with family of origin and also the Sociological environment and how you're treated does have a huge impact on you

05:17

But I think one of the things that is very important you're looking with someone that would like Charlie is that If you don't approach it from a if you point of view approach it from a point of neutrality and you don't really look at it as a

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From a Christian worldview and look at someone of Manson who was someone who was made in the image of God Right and what made him tick there's things that the

05:40

Bible kind of gives Some ideas of how to look inside the inside the mind of Manson. He knew

05:46

God He suppressed the truth and unrighteousness and he worshipped the creature rather than the Creator. So you look at all those things so All that being said what we want to do and just to kind of give you a heads up We're obviously this is a true crime series.

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This is a sinful world What we're going to be discussing in many levels is going to be disturbing

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So I just want to advise you that if you have children around and if you are perhaps you are

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You were just sort of sensitive person You just want to listen with discretion and this may not be

06:18

You might want to tune in once we're done with a series this might not be for you Yeah, and so just just advise you if you have children around or perhaps you are a sensitive person yourself

06:27

We are going to be dealing with some Mature content regarding this is a true. We're talking about true true crime.

06:33

We're talking about Murders that took place that were graphic We kind of gave you a hint at the very beginning of that we talked about which is one of the most infamous murders that just Horrify people and really put a whole city in paralysis really on lockdown of all things

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Given current circumstances just again be sensitive that so let's start at the very

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We a lot of times a lot of other Manson podcasts they start right and they kind of build up to the murder

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We're gonna talk about it now so people can understand this because this is when the world was really introduced to Manson no one really really knew him except for his followers and we're going to expand

07:13

Who's who his followers were we might touch them a little bit? We're gonna expand that more more on more into our later into our series

07:22

So let's talk about this what took place here. This was August 1969 right and we talked about Abigail Folger knocks on the door and what

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What came after that what people found that what detectives found on the next morning after after the calls and what they witnessed

07:42

It's still something that if you look up it still Horrifies people and that has captured people that really right

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You can actually find the police reports online They're very easily accessible all of the photographs of the crime scene are also accessible

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So for anyone that's really curious about what it actually looked like You know, you're at liberty to take a look at those photos, you know warning again that they're quite graphic But these the murders that took place over, you know late in the evening

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August 8th and then early in the morning of August 9th 1969 They were brutal

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I mean for any there really isn't a better word. They were heinous and brutal and They actually weren't the first murders committed by Charles Manson and the family

08:30

No, the first murder that we really know about was actually the murder of Gary Hinman Which we it's kind of projected to have occurred sometime in July of that year

08:42

So Andrew, do you want to talk about the what the police report says? Yeah, so I have the police report pulled up and we went ahead and looked at it and this is the the original police report filed and it was

08:55

Some of the investigators at the scene were lieutenant RC Madlock who is the commander then we have lieutenant

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JJ Grigori sergeant F Gravante Sergeant T and sergeant TL Rogers and this is part of the police report

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I'm gonna go ahead and start reading it and then we'll go into the descriptions of the bodies as well and however

09:14

How everyone was found? So Sometime after midnight August 9th 1969 an unknown suspect or suspects entered the

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Cielo property via the front gate Which is operated by an electric push button that can be operated from the outside of the gate from this point

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There are three possible theories which have been reached after analyzing physical evidence. So they came up with three different fear theories

09:36

Couple of them I think are kind of irrelevant to after what was discovered later So I'm just going to go ahead and just read the main theory here

09:45

So the first theory is that the killers climbed a telephone pole located just north of the above described described electric electronic button

09:52

Which opens the gate to the Cielo property? The phone wire at the top of this pole had been cut in such a manner that it stopped phone service to the

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Cielo property However, it did not allow the phone wire that runs from the pole to the house to fall to the ground the killers also cut a small piece of two -strand wire which runs from the

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Cielo home the telephone pole near the Top and then down to where the bottom or where the button for the gate is located

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So we can see that they had been thinking about this, right? They cut phone wires. This is not just something where it's

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Plainly just a heat of passion crime or things They had been thinking and Brooke and also what people will realize too as we lead into this

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There is a connection to this property that has to do there's a special relate

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Charles had a special connection to this property way prior to this murder. So there wasn't just a random

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Locale right there's there's purpose and temp behind it, but go ahead with what you're saying So at one time the wire was connected to two speakers which were used for communications between the house and the gate opener

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This had not been in use since the Polanski's leased the property in February of 1969 this wire was cut and and had fallen across the ground in a north -south direction across Cielo Drive The killers then entered the gate at approximately 3 o 'clock in the morning and were observed by the first victim

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Stephen parent This is what they believed at the time and he was leaving the guest house Which was occupied by a houseboy

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William Gerritsen the killers have been hired to kill Sharon Polanski Jay Sebring war check

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Wachowski and Abigail Folger shot Parent was shot three times as he attempted to drive his vehicle from the

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Cielo property The killers continued to the main house the Polanski residence where they proceeded to kill the four intended victims

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So that was the most popular Theory that there was right and just just to mention to you mentioned

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Sharon Polanski I believe that a lot of times in Hollywood an actress will keep their

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Their last name that that's famous with what they're kind of their brand their brand right and so the reason why

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I say that is that she was married to Roman Polanski and At this times if you have follow if anyone who's followed the story of Manson would know that at that time

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I mean Roman Polanski was a very popular filmmaker. He made very popular movies like Rosemary's Baby a lot of other films

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And so he was overseas on a project and so he was away from the house Sharon month

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Sharon Tate Was eight months pregnant at this time Expecting their first child.

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Yep. So Stephen parent who was 18 years old was really a victim of Circumstance he was well, the secular world would say that he was really at the you know at the wrong place in the wrong time

12:38

You know as reformed believers, we understand that there really is no coincidence But he was walking to his car from a friend's house a friend who was staying

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Garrison Gerritsen, yeah, William Gerritsen William Gerritsen who was staying in the guest house on the Cielo property and he was just going home

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He was gonna get into his car and drive away and really had no warning whatsoever and is shot to death with the .22

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caliber that They believe or speculate that Tex Watson was carrying with him that night so he you know was an unexpected obstacle that showed up and they

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They took care of it by shooting him Yeah, that's that's right. We go to the description to you.

13:21

Well, just yeah And so when they found him and I don't want to go into two really graphic descriptions I want to get people just the general idea of what took place.

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Is that this was needs were not Painless murders. These were not quick murders.

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These people they came in with knives Charlie had spent extensive time really conditioning.

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We'll go on this as we expand to All of them were stabbed repeatedly

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Including Sharon Tate when she was eight months pregnant begged for her life begged them to Take allow her to have the baby then kill her was anything and at that time

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They said no and that that was one of the most shocking aspects and that's what sent really LA into a complete panic

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You'd even say lockdown so with all that being said what we want to do is

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Like I said, this is a murder that shocked everyone we want to start at the very beginning How did this really start because we're looking at cults from a psychological aspect a sociological aspect?

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We're gonna even deal really with a theological aspect. We want to deal with this holistically. So Historically, we're gonna start at the very beginning

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And so Rob, we're gonna kind of maybe kind of with all your research on Manson. We want to start We want to come understand

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What was the psyche like growing up as a child, what was that like so he is born on November 12th 1934

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Charlie was born in Cincinnati. He was the illegitimate son of a 16 year old named

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Kathleen Maddox and so Sometimes you'll have a relationship where it's really a single mom household

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And there's a bit at least that's somewhat of a stable environs a stable single mom who just happens to be in those circumstances

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That was not stable, so why don't you just go ahead just introduce everyone to The very beginning of what was true.

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What was describe everyone? What was Charlie's a childhood like describe what you know about his mother and also

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His father because there's a lot of issues as far as abandonment goes a lot of childhood trauma that would have really affected him

15:35

Really kind of leading up throughout his upbringing, right? Um, yeah, so We kind of see this theme all the time in Psychology and true crime and it makes a lot of sense.

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But this this idea of we inherit the sins of our fathers Which as Christians we know is true

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Where we all inherited Adam's sin So for that to be for us to expect for that to be any different when we're looking at anything psychological would be silly

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But like you said Jerry his mom Grew up during the depressed well Grew up and was working during the depression as a prostitute she was 16 years old when she gave birth to Charlie and She didn't want anything to do with him which

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I think You know, I don't want to generalize here, but I imagine that a lot of single 16 year old mothers who are working in the line of work that she did would probably feel very much burdened by Being pregnant and having a baby

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Just to kind of set the stage for that. She she didn't name Charlie on the birth certificate

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No name Maddox is what was listed. So when you look at things like abandonment trauma and What that does to an individual

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Charlie was not wanted here He didn't have a place in the world right from the beginning

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And I think He like that really Cultivated this need to learn how to adapt and navigate in a culture where he didn't have any lifeline whatsoever

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As far as When we look at things like sociopathy and psychopathy, which we'll get a little bit more into as we talk about You know what actually happened in the cult of the family the brainwashing

17:30

And so forth that took place between Charlie as the brainwasher and then the family members as the brainwash ease

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There are a few psychological explanations for why somebody would develop something like psychopathy or sociopathy, so I'm gonna go just give you like a brief overview of like the clinical history there.

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So we are in the doctor's office, right? So there is a fellow a

17:57

Canadian forensic psychologist by the name of dr. Robert hair, and he is kind of the father of forensic psychiatry psychology

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He spent his entire career investigating psychopathy and sociopathy in both the criminal and then civilian sectors

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So very interesting. He's written several books two of my favorites We I'm sure we can include in show notes or whatever if people are interested in it

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But just to kind of give everybody, you know a basic understanding when somebody in psychology or a clinician and mental health uses terms like Sociopath or psychopath.

18:39

This is what we're saying. Those aren't diagnoses Okay, so I can't diagnose somebody that comes into my office.

18:45

You're a psychopath. That isn't a clinical diagnosis What we're doing is we're describing traits

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Behaviors Personality structure. Okay, so when a psychologist talks about Psychopathy, we're usually referring to a set of personality disorders.

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Okay, so you guys will be familiar with Narcissism, right? So narcissistic personality disorder is probably at the top of the pyramid right when we're talking about, you know psychopathy

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There are other personality disorders that fall into this category. So antisocial personality disorder and then

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Two others within this cluster histrionic Personality disorder and borderline personality disorder.

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So we group disorders together based on their shared common features, right? Humans like to categorize and name things go figure right?

19:37

Yeah, take the minion exactly So and naming things gives us a way of understanding them so and speaking of names one of the things too is that you're dealing with from a clinical standpoint, but just We're in a culture right now where they're

19:51

We love impact words. So just and just psychopath and Narcissist.

19:58

Yeah, right me like, oh, you know, it's kind of or you call like gaslighting These popular site, you know psychologists buzzword and so that obviously comes there and so but what you're doing though is you're taking these aspects so people will look at someone like Charlie and say

20:15

Narcissist psychopath right where you're dealing what we're doing here is we're kind of really kind of almost sort of on a document

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You click on one tab and three tabs open up, right? We're describing from a clinical standpoint

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What that actually looks like as far as how you when you when you practice or when you treat someone, right?

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And then how did then that how would this apply then looking at this is not someone who's sat down across the table from you sure, but it is it is someone who is it is and also

20:45

I'll find it fascinating too on his birth certificate has no name right and now Charles Manson right that is the name 50 years later.

20:53

That's just right. It's a household name. We all know it So that's exactly right

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Categorizing gives us this a paradigm to understand behavior and we can really break all of it down very simply as Christians into a sin nature and You know common grace that God, you know restrains people from Fully Coming to realize the depths of their depravity and then you get a case like Charles Manson Where that isn't restrained at all and you see what happens so when we talk about a psychopath

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Again, we're really referring to that grouping of personality disorders We look at very common.

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We look at a few common traits The one at the top of the list is lack of empathy so if if I look at Another human being as nothing more than an object if I objectify them and make them worth no more than a table

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That makes me the most dangerous person in the world because I can do whatever I want to you Right.

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I mean if you have no value as a human I can destroy you without thinking or blinking

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All right, and we really see that happening here in this case And again, you know to pull it back pull it out of our secular

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Like secular psychology back into a Christian Christian worldview. We understand that we don't really need a fancy explanation

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You know in terms of this is where Charlie came from this. These are all the trials and tribulations of his upbringing

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We know that we're born sinful and we know that You know, it's really only the grace of God that restrains that from fully manifesting and you know in each person when when it doesn't

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But when we're comparing like the the secular psychology points So when we're trying to explain in a worldview outside of a

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Christian worldview What happened to Charlie or why he became the way that he is? I mean he entered the world unwanted

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He had no name the abandonment trauma of that of not being wanted by your parents

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Means that you're alone in the world, right? I Have no one to look after me essentially and and I don't mean like he didn't have somebody to feed him

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He didn't have somebody to put clothes on his back. He had no emotional intimacy or safe You know safety and the way that most of us do with you know, one parent or two parents

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So I think it's really interesting and it's important to that. We know he was already incarcerated by the time.

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He was 14 years old He learned to survive being bullied by lying

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He was a smaller guy He was I had always been a smaller guy And one of I read several books prepping for this episode too, and I can't remember which one

23:43

I I read this in But he was very very smart He was very adaptive and he learned that if he could

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Deflect attention away from himself and by lying then he wasn't beaten as badly by the bigger boys

23:59

Conditions himself almost right exactly. I mean so if you if you look at how

24:07

Would somebody develop this lack of empathy, right? There's a couple of different theories and going back to Robert Harris, which

24:16

I just really love his approach to this What circumstances would

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Make it adaptive for you to not have empathy and you look at extreme trauma to break away into another true crime case

24:33

I think of Kuklinski the ice the ice box Iceman killer from New York He was a mafia hitman for hire and there's actually you can see an interview between him and hair on YouTube for free

24:46

Which is it's really fascinating but he describes this instance watching when he was like four or five years old of his father forcing his mother on to the roof of their home with with a firearm and And getting her to play chicken with the roof like, you know, jump off jump up.

25:04

So Those are the types of circumstances Where it becomes adaptive and healthy to lose empathy if I don't care about what's going on here

25:15

Then it doesn't hurt me. Yeah, okay, so You are if you're in a circumstance where you're constantly being traumatized where what's happening around you is

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Painful to a degree that it makes sense for you to not feel it What becomes of what what starts as a coping mechanism becomes?

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reflexive and intrinsic and before you know it it's a rigid ingrained personality structure and Where empathy once was it no longer is so it makes sense to you because Manson in an interview talking about his mother where you know, he was reading all of these books by the time he was in jail and They're talking about his mother being a prostitute and this or that.

25:55

Well Manson said in an interview He said well, no, it's not that she was like a prostitute. It's more that she was just ahead of her time, right?

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She was a girl of the 60s pretty much before it ever happened So in order to try to justify how his mother treated him

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He had to redefine what it even is essentially to be kind of like a woman, right? That's right.

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He rationalized it And I think too that that really feeds into a lot of what

26:18

Charlie's own like dogma was You know what? He was what he was telling himself and I think ultimately what he really came to believe

26:25

You know just kind of the insane ideas spiritual ideas that we'll get you know into in a lot more detail later on but I think the

26:35

Like the key point here is that it became very Adaptive for Charlie at a really young age to stop caring about people you

26:45

Know not caring means that being abandoned by your mother and father doesn't hurt Not caring means that if you don't have relationships with people that doesn't matter

26:55

Not caring means that if you know If you're rejected by by this or that and we'll get a lot more into his kind of delusional

27:03

Fixation with the Beatles and you know this idea that he was going to be as you know a star, you know in that same caliber

27:11

It's a way of protecting yourself from the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, you know, yeah and also when he went to the board went to the boarding school, which is the cabal school for boys and that was

27:27

Right away. They realized that all the teachers and faculty they realized this is

27:32

This is a problem child and they had lots of issues with them Tell us about whether the things that you've you've

27:40

Like if you saw from everything that you read upwind because you can you listen to tons of different podcasts

27:46

You'll find more the details as as far as the historical specifics of the way he acted out We talked about him using kind of lying as a defense mechanism

27:54

But if you just say that you were like the school psychologist and all of a sudden we've got this new person's boarding school

28:01

Charlie He's out of control. Mm -hmm. What would you from there? Like how would you at this point? we're so we're talking about just kind of giving people introduction of the fact that he'd had abandonment trauma from mother and father and Now we're dealing with so when he's now 13 years old.

28:15

So now you now you have adolescents sort of growing into Now teens right like that, you know the normal ups and downs of puberty like oh my goodness

28:23

I don't know how any of us really make it out alive parents or teenagers so If I Imagine myself, you know in that position seeing a young Charlie and watching his his charm and his glibness and his ability to kind of chameleon to whatever circumstances

28:49

He's in to save himself. It's you know, it's a save yourself mentality. It's a survival mentality, right?

28:56

I think what's really scary about Charlie is is his ability to fit in His ability to fly under the radar in that way

29:07

I mean, it really is the mark of a true of a true narcissist to be able to manipulate not just The people around you but the environment around you to your benefit to get out of trouble and you know, clearly

29:20

Like I said, he was already in car incarcerated in a youth detention facility at the age of 14

29:26

So he wasn't super great at staying out of trouble but it was what he did within the context of where he was that that would have been very very alarming and fascinating Truly fascinating his ability to befriend people in authority positions and to manipulate them

29:47

You know, my guess is that if you talked to you know, anybody that was outside of what would you know?

29:53

Become the family later on Especially individuals that really didn't have any training or understanding of this kind of behavior they would have described

30:02

Charlie as you know, a really nice but wayward youth

30:07

That that really just kind of had a bad start in life And yeah, if he had some some extra help or you know

30:16

Whatever that he could be straightened out as time went on And eventually he ran away right from the boarding school, right

30:24

So this is another aspect and maybe we'll kind of go along here goes now now 13 14 years old

30:29

So one of the times when you kind of look at different characteristics of people you have those people Sometimes you call them people that are addicted to drama addicted to chaos

30:37

Where it's sort of like they're they're just sort of creating this environment around or they're almost Not trying to sound new -age you but it's like they're literally manifesting these situations, right?

30:46

But literally you'll see that so there's one thing is sometimes you'll have people almost like they're they're clueless of The chaos that they're creating and they didn't like why do the problems always follow with them?

30:58

They brought they blame either the circumstance wherever you go. There you are, right? It seems to me though that as you see

31:05

Charlie and his progressions He wasn't unaware of what he was doing He was fully aware and he saw that at a very young age and and you saw that a lot of times with the behavior

31:15

Even at that boarding school using lying again as a manipulative tactic. So his first Known crime was when now was this is his introduction to the life of crime 14 years old

31:27

It was Indianapolis grocery store, and I have it here And there was a robbery where he was trying to find something to eat

31:34

But it says Charlie he found a cast register change in a cigar box hidden under the counter

31:39

It was just over a hundred dollars back. Then is probably a little more money more money than he had ever seen his life

31:45

The first thing that Charlie did was to rent a room on Indianapolis skid row and to eat as much as he possibly could handle 14 year old

31:53

Charlie actually tried to go straight a while by getting a job delivering messages for Western Union But he quickly began to supplement his wages by petty theft.

32:01

This is 14 years old This is 14 years old. So you're just beginning to see those traits right forward

32:08

I mean, it's it is it's fascinating and so if you look to at what he's learning from his parents as a mother

32:15

Nothing is off -limits. You do whatever you have to do to survive including selling your own body so taking advantage of people isn't really even a that isn't

32:25

It isn't a concept in his mind in the way that it is in my mind or your mind Because he doesn't view people the same way the other person

32:34

Is objectified so that he can do whatever he wants to them and you like you said Jerry you really see

32:40

The very like beginning mustard seeds of that kind of manifesting Here, you know at 14 years old when he rips off this cash register, right?

32:50

Challenging authority having no respect for authority. The law doesn't apply to me. I'm above the law You see these characteristics that will come out full force and Charlie later

33:00

You just see them start bubbling right over the surface here And one of the things you'll see too is that the relationship with his mother?

33:08

That not only was she not Present she was absent, but she's also was in a lot of legal trouble herself

33:17

So you talk about it was a 1939 man Catholic Maddox and her brother Luther.

33:22

They were arrested They tried to rob a gas station using a broken ketchup bottle

33:28

Yeah, you know like he might be one want to have a little more tact than that You know, you might really think that out further and so now you said then she ends up going to prison and that's when he

33:38

Was sent to live with his aunt and uncle, right? Yeah, and what you're seeing though Is that now you're saying not only now you're sort of being bounced around from household to household not any sort of particular stable environment

33:50

So that's a sociological aspect but then also jumping back to understanding from a

33:55

Christian perspective that Charlie again is someone who's made the image of God and we are created for relationship

34:01

Right that because we have a God who is Trinity the God in his own nature. He's Relational between the father that the father loves his son and you look all through the

34:12

Gospel of John it talks about that So now he has this yearning that's because that's just how he's wired, right?

34:19

but now all these environments and really a broken and sinful world has so convoluted his ideas of wanting to be

34:29

Important wanting to be wanted right and what what a healthy relationship actually even is, right?

34:34

so and even going back to that crime, there's a couple of different ways that a psychologist would look at But so so you could see somebody robbing a gas station with the ketchup a broken ketchup bottle as an act of desperation

34:49

Right. I don't have any other weapon I'm gonna break this ketchup bottle and attempt to rob the store But to me knowing what we know about Charlie's mom and it really about Charlie My guess is that it was much more.

35:02

It's much more Exemplary exemplary of grandiosity. I don't need anything more than a ketchup bottle.

35:09

Yeah rob this store I can I can you know, I'm untouchable right in that way and clearly she wasn't but In her mind that my guess is that that that didn't even really occur to her at the time

35:21

Yeah, she's still pretty young at that time, right? Really? And I think so his environment now being being someone who's a sinner and wanting to find meaning and significance

35:31

Trying to be sort of part of bigger than himself I think the only way he could really find that was really through sort of again taking advantage abusing other people

35:40

So you have that and then but it really it's just it always seems to be this life of crime

35:45

This is what has became his identity To do these sorts of things whether it's petty theft or other things that we'll get into I was gonna mention the real quickly

35:53

But go ahead. Yeah, so like biblically I think this that God institutes the family for a reason, right?

35:58

The first government instituted in the Bible is the Institute of the family and there's a reason for it because God shows us how to Have relationships if our family's in right relationship with God number one

36:08

With Charlie we can see the struggle, right? He doesn't have the law of God that he is pointed back to you by his family instead

36:14

He's abandoned right and what does he become he becomes one who who's at constant battle with a standard of the world with his own

36:22

Standard as thinking he is essentially an autonomous being right and in that he becomes

36:28

The type of person to where every other person in relationship around him becomes a means to an end, right? Right, not necessarily someone that he wants to get to know intimately or care about but someone that he could actually use

36:41

To get further to where he wants to go to advance an object So he learns he learns immediately that relationships are painful

36:50

They're not they're not this loving nurturing thing. They are painful

36:55

So if I disconnect myself from the emotional intimacy that most people have in relationships

37:02

I start looking that at them like just what you said Andrew as a means to an end like an end a means to an end

37:08

Yeah, right So and I so then I start objectifying everyone around me. How can this person get me what

37:14

I what I need and this Really like his relationship with his mom and really all of the caregivers in his life as a young man

37:23

Really gave this just distorted blueprint about what a relationship was and if you think about where we learn what relationships are

37:32

It's from our parents, right? It's from the people that raised us So what he learned that parents don't love you that you're not worth anything, right?

37:40

So that's what he takes with him into the world. Yeah, right rather than like what you were saying having this

37:46

Structure with a head of hat like a head of the family That's leading the family back to scripture that can explain

37:53

God's law and that desire for relationships that we all have inherently within a healthy context he's left to make sense of it on his own and He does what we all do without God.

38:05

He and eventually creates an idol which is himself, right? He makes himself

38:10

God in his his own mind and then he plays to that Yeah, and that gives him even more license to do whatever he wants to people.

38:18

Mm -hmm exactly yeah, one of the things you notice too is that this is important to you when you look at the progression of where Manson is headed and we're again

38:27

We're kind of starting at the beginning kind of really kind of dealing with what a lot of other podcasts have done talking about historical significant aspects of how

38:35

Charlie went from this incredibly dysfunctional childhood all the way up until this crime

38:41

That's still 50 years later. Just really haunts the minds of people of anyone who looks into it and so When it comes to understand from a

38:50

Christian worldview You're where you we have to just really look at the shrewd the depravity of sin one of the aspects of sin is

38:59

That sin always takes you further than you could ever imagine I mean, you know someone when you look at someone whatever it is, whatever this like whatever is going on in the news

39:08

It usually didn't start that way. Like one of my old pastors would say that When you hear about some guy who is in football

39:17

He's like a star football player and I'm a seeing and all of a sudden you find out he's doing cocaine And he was with prostitutes and say he's part of some sort of sex trafficking ring

39:25

And I'm just I'm not naming any specific person. I'm just giving example, but um what you'll find out

39:30

It's not this all of a sudden this person like oh, I've got this million -dollar contract Let me go ahead and just start all those things.

39:35

It starts off with one little compromise, but the one thing about With sin is that you always and never satisfies you always sort of have to up the ante and so Probably I think some of the reasons why he did too is

39:48

I think there might have been an aspect to where he wanted I just have the thrill of Taking advantage and dominating these people and controlling them

39:56

So I think there's an aspect of him wanting to do that too. But as you see this progresses You'll see that continue to escalate

40:04

So I want to give you all an example and again just advise you if you have Children around and or if you have sensitive ears what

40:11

I'm going to talk about is disturbing but again, we're talking about someone who was a criminal who did

40:17

Criminal things. This is a world that's fallen instant. This world is rated R as ND Wilson says so 1952

40:24

This was kind of known as really his last act of real criminal violence There's other petty theft and things like that we'll get into but this was in a point in time he was trans he was transferred to a

40:40

Reformatory and in January 1952 holding a razor blade to a boy's throat. He sodomized him

40:47

He did that. Yeah, and then Basically because of that he ended up being trained

40:53

I mean, I won't get any more deep those other books to go more detail on that We're not going to do that, but just that's something that he did so you went from petty theft you went from petty theft the thrill of $100 and Then and buying yourself all this food who knows what the food was.

41:08

It might have been all the great sweets, whatever I don't know what I don't know what Charlie saw as delicacies to holding a razor blade to someone's throat and sodomizing them that That's that's a bit of an escalation to say the least right?

41:26

So so you have that so you'll see a continue And then what you'll see though, you talk about him being manipulative.

41:32

So that happened in January 1952 in August 1952 he was transferred to an aid different reformatory and it says and suddenly he turned over a new leaf and he became the model prisoner almost overnight and that act

41:47

Gave him a parole in May 1954 So it tells you is that he knows even as horrible as that did and I bet you all the people working with him at that reformatory

41:58

Knew what he did right and but they saw enough in his behavior To give him a parole he to see him

42:05

Oh, he's the ideal model what we should go for no need to say I mean knows that Charlie would just play they're all singing to the tune of his flute, right?

42:13

Well think about Charlie too. He's the guy who who thinks about something probably two steps ahead

42:18

So when he's sodomizing this person He knows that he may just get kicked out and have to go somewhere else Right, right if he's getting kicked out to go somewhere else

42:25

He's gonna use somebody to do that So he can go somewhere else and create this new version of himself in order to please them and move on from there, right?

42:33

I mean, it's it's really smart. It's extremely adaptive and that's what these these Individuals individuals in this category.

42:40

That's what they do. They chameleon themselves. They become whatever the people in authority the people who are reigning authority over them

42:48

Whatever they want to see when I was doing my predoctoral internship at Arizona State Hospital.

42:53

I saw it all the time With individuals, you know on the forensic campus and then also

42:59

I worked on the sexually violent predator unit They're too and you you watch these people manipulate their clinicians their behavioral staff

43:10

Because they know after they pay attention for a little while what it is that you want

43:15

What does they want to hear? And and if you apply take that and apply it to what ended up happening in the family in the actual cult that Manson You know

43:27

Created and then grew it's the exact same thing. He and we'll talk about this in a lot more detail

43:32

But he identified individuals who he could tell very quickly and easily what they needed and wanted and then he became that for them

43:41

Yes, and we and we will talk about how that came to fruition In the next episode, so we've got kind of a good foundations.

43:49

You can kind of really see just the basic Understanding the psyche inside the mind of Manson, how did these things affect him?

43:58

How do we make sense of what he did of these things from this this and all these?

44:04

Charlie's Manson's whole life right that we're talking about that all of these books all these

44:09

Documentaries all of these different theories that are still circulating today that fascinates the public

44:16

That even influenced Quentin Tarantino to make once upon a time in Hollywood Yeah, and based off these different characters and spawn ranch.

44:23

These all Exist in the world that God created and so we in order to make full sense of this

44:30

We have to look at it in that light right and hopefully this is something that we can do because as much as we have appreciation for a lot of the other

44:36

People who have put a lot of really good historical work, right in many cases even psychological work but if you you've even talked about before given all your practice if you don't look at the gospel holistically as the healing point all

44:51

The psyche in the world at a bass is just a band -aid. That's right. It's a band -aid wound, right?

44:56

Not a cure of Jesus is the cure, right? And I think it's really important to you know to get all presuppositional here

45:04

We like without a Christian worldview without a Christian paradigm. None of this matters, right? It doesn't matter that Sharon Tate was eight months pregnant with her first baby who she loved and begged for the life of I think is

45:17

I think she and and Roman we're gonna name him Paul It doesn't matter that a 25 year old

45:24

Abigail Folger was stabbed to death in front of her boyfriend And then her boyfriend who was trying to save her was shot in the back

45:32

You know it none of that matters if all we are is cosmic cosmic broccoli, right?

45:37

It only matters if we're made in God's image if we have some actual

45:43

Objective standard for justice for what's right and wrong And you get that within the

45:49

Christian worldview because God spells it out really really clearly for us Absolutely, yeah so what we're gonna do is that this is really kind of just the basic basic introduction as we just Said really kind of you mentioned you can only we have to look at it holistically.

46:06

So Charlie had a continued life of crime that eventually led him to prison and Eventually led to 1967 the summer of love but we will before we do that There was a lot of times in his life of crime that really affected his worldview and kind of really made him who he was

46:24

So we're gonna kind of really delve more into that Especially the lot that happened very significant things that happened during Charlie's life a crime prior to him really getting kind of thrown into a lot of upheaval in the 19 in the late 1960s

46:39

So, thank you so much for listening to this introductory part of this true crime Podcast talking about inside the mind of Manson.

46:47

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47:08

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47:17

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47:26

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