Macarthur vs California

Non-rockabodas must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it. Are you gonna bark all day?

Or are you gonna bite? Delusional is okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay.

It doesn't really hurt.

Is he hung up on me?

Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Don't go into the world and make homies. Disciples.

I got a bit of a jiggle neck. That's a joke pastor. When we have the real message of truth We cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not. And when they brought them they set them before the council and the high priest questioned them.

Saying we strictly charged you not to teach in this name. Yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and you intend to bring this man's blood upon us. But Peter and the Apostles answered we must obey God rather than men.

Introduction, the Show, and Why This Episode Matters

What's up guys, welcome back to another episode of Apologia Radio. I'm Jeff. They call me the ninja. You guys to get more at ApologiaStudios .com. That's A-P-O-L-O-G-I-A Studios .com. That's you guys go to get all the past episodes.

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This is Isaac Benegas. What's up? What's up? He's been on before many times before. And Isaac works the background he does stuff for our youth. He's one of my best friends and I brought him on today because we're gonna talk about some cool stuff.

Isaac's got some great insights in terms of overarching Themes of Scripture setting me up. I am I am overarching themes of Scripture Book of Revelations stuff. We're gonna talk about end times stuff today.

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So hey, we're gonna get into the show right away today. We want to try to do as much as we can as quickly and as concise as possible. So a lot's been happening and there's been a lot of questions. So we're gonna talk about Todd white today many of you guys.

Had the opportunity perhaps to see his message from two weeks ago. He talked about him. He talked about repenting. He talked about being convicted over not preaching the whole gospel. He talked a lot about sin and the call to repent from sin and trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

It was a very tear-filled message that he gave and it started a Firestorm online of people discussing whether or not the repentance was real whether it was true people saying this is really a good. It's a hopeful thing.

We should all be invested in praying for him and hope for the best sort of a thing. So obviously that's a big deal right now. We're gonna address that with a few thoughts today, but also gonna talk about John MacArthur pastor John MacArthur versus the state of California pastor John MacArthur.

Many of you guys have heard me say that when I was coming out of my drug and alcohol addiction I had a profession of faith in Jesus and When I came out of my drug and alcohol addiction, I don't even know how I got the book.

But it was the gospel according to Jesus by dr. MacArthur. I I do Constantly want to thank God for that work because it brought me back to the scriptures and what the Lord Jesus taught about Coming to him in faith what that meant coming to him as Lord trusting in him as Savior.

So it was dr. MacArthur's book that really helped me to get to some of those passages that I was just overlooking ignoring and Not really meditating upon so I praise God for that. Dr. MacArthur and.

Grace.

Community Church in California. They actually did close down when kovat 19 Was was really hitting us when there were of course the state of emergency calls from the national government and also the state governments.

Dr. MacArthur and the other elders at Grace Church actually closed closed down because according to Pastor MacArthur they wanted to really show concern for the people that they had care over. They were being told that there was gonna be millions of people dying.

This was in the early stages of people not really knowing a lot about kovat 19 coronavirus. And so it was a precautionary measure From his perspective, but he opened back up for public worship and of course you have the state of California saying things as asinine as.

You know, no. Okay, we all know what they're saying in terms of like the size of the gathering what's possible the inconsistencies abound in terms of being able to go out to Walmart to Target to Any of the grocery stores with a mass of people and you have of course abortion Mills have still been in operation during the kovat shutdown in California.

There's many many inconsistencies. Pastor MacArthur saw that and so they responded and rejected the call not to sing. They rejected the call not to gather for worship. He calls the worship of the church and the gathering of the church essential.

So I don't if you want to add anything to that before I go into.

Anymore. No that that pretty much covers it just very encouraging. Like you said, I think MacArthur's had an impact on Evangelicalism as a whole. I mean compared to him. I don't know if anybody else has had that impact.

I remember when I was in elementary school. Getting ready for school. My mom blasting MacArthur through the hallways. This is like mid 90s early 90s.

So this is also when you were like in between you were listening to Carmen.

It was probably around that time. Yeah DC talk. Yeah, that's right. Um, but no MacArthur's had an impact on my life I love the guy and Praying for him and just encouraged by the stand he's taking. Okay, good.

All right. So everyone welcome to the show. See all you guys in the chat live. Thank you guys for joining us. We're gonna go right in here to playing. I thought the best thing to do I mean obviously MacArthur if you didn't listen to his message he delivered on the day that they have formally and officially opened back up for The gathering of the Saints for the worship of the Savior if you didn't listen to that sermon go on to grace.

Is it grace to you? Is that the name of the ministry? That's the media. I think that's their channel though, right? So go to go to Grace Church John MacArthur watch that whole sermon. It was really really well done very encouraging and Hopefully emboldening and to pastors elders and believers across the country go watch it.

I thought a better thing to do it actually was actually to to pray The concise thought to play the concise thoughts from Pastor John While he was on Fox News, and so I pulled up the clip here and let's go ahead and play that right now.

Is defying governor Gavin Newsom's new coronavirus restrictions hosting indoor in-person services at Grace Community Church in Los Angeles County. Pastor says he's apparently been warned he could face fines or even arrest if he carries on and yet he does.

Pastor John MacArthur Joins us live to talk about that pastor. Good to have you with us.

Thank You Shannon my pleasure.

Okay, let me start with this headline a piece written by a doctor. He says churches could be the deadliest places in the kovat 19 pandemic. This is the combination of singing in close quarters and decreased ventilation is nothing short of a petri dish or cell plate for viral growth.

So just addressing that this is really really important and it's one of the things that Pastor John has pointed out Publicly and in these news shows and radio interviews and of course during his message this this Issue related to the spread of kovat 19 is is very important now.

Pastor John argues that early on they took precautions and they closed down the gathering of the Saints on the Lord's Day because they were being told that this was going to kill Millions of people there wasn't a lot known about the virus.

And so they were trying to take Precautionary measures to love their people. That's what they did. Okay. Now, of course as the data has come in on kovat 19 things have to be seen in a different light.

This is so vitally important. And if you guys are in a place where you're undecided on this and you're just not really sure and there's still fear surrounding The virus people with compromised immune systems and the elderly all that is known now.

But the information now is here and it's consistent. The data shows us that Kovat 19 is on par with on par with it's not the flu. I've heard people even saying it's just a mild flu. Well, I would say that depends on who gets this thing.

So that's really not accurate. It's not a hoax. It's a real thing. It does hurt people. It definitely kills people. But we know now Details about this virus knowing who it discriminates against and we know that it is on par with other Sicknesses other viruses other illnesses that we have to actually contend with on an annual basis.

Now this is I think that this is the a linchpin sort of a thing and this is where I hope we can all Consider this in terms of consistency. When you think about kovat 19 and all that we know about this virus now.

When I say that's on par with other viruses and things we deal with on an annual basis I think consistency matters here because we live in a fallen world. We live in a fallen world and we are constantly facing diseases things that can kill us all of us are gonna probably go out today and drive in our cars and there's a danger of getting into a car accident either being Killed ourselves or or killing somebody else in the process.

This is a fallen world. We don't live in the eternal state and so we're gonna be dealing with things like this on an annual basis and so we have to use Wisdom when we're facing down things like this on a regular basis and ask the deep questions.

Like is this the Spanish flu? Is this like that? Is this the black plague when we're talking about losing like More than 50 of the human population. Is this is this something that affects everybody indiscriminately?

It takes it takes down children. Teenagers young adults elderly whoever gets it. It's gonna affect you the same. Is it like that and the answer is no like pastor John's gonna point out here in a moment.

You have over a 99 Survival rate with this virus. We know that now that's a fact over a 99 survival rate. It's not diminishing the seriousness of the virus itself and what it can do to impact people.

It's to say consistency matters. If you give the government the right to tyranny over the people to destroy families Livelihoods businesses, which it has done and is doing. I am actually I'm not a prophet.

Nor the son of a prophet. But I can see which way the wind is blowing and I know that when you have businesses closing down people losing jobs at a certain Point money runs out free money will run out and at a certain point we're gonna have to face the reality that all these businesses are closed all these people are out of work and we're gonna have to face the economic ramifications and Consequences and so we have to ask the question if it's on par with things we deal with on an annual basis.

Then why are we shutting down? The world and why are we destroying businesses and families and livelihoods and why are we closing down the most essential thing? Which is the worship of God and people say no, well, you can just be the church.

This is this is where I want you to add into this. People will just say this is the argument and we'll extend this and get into John's discussion here. They'll say No, we're the church and the answer is okay.

Yes, but we need to get down and dig down a little further there. What does the word church mean? Well, it comes from a word ecclesia and that word is essentially it's the gathering of the called-out one.

It right it the word itself Ecclesia that word within it is the car is the is the is the context is the definition of Gathering. So so yes, we're the church. But if there is no gathering if there is no assembling that's not what the church is.

Now are there instances where we're gonna have to work out in a fallen world? How are we gonna actually gather and do the worship of God in the midst of the Black Plague where we're losing half of the population.

Yeah, wisdom would dictate that we figure things out. But in a situation where you're dealing with a virus that's on par with the other viruses We deal with and contend with annually you got to ask the question.

Is this wise? Is it wise to destroy the world for something that 99 more than 99 Survival rate number is it is it wise to destroy all of the economy because of something? That's that's over a 99 survival rates.

My answer is no and Pastor John addresses that he says no this isn't what they said. We're not talking about what they said and now. They're making a decision as elders over the people of God saying this is the most essential things.

You're not gonna tell us that work. We can't worship and sing to Jesus over something with a 99 Survival rate you can't do that to us. We're gonna obey God rather than men. I stand with Pastor John MacArthur here.

He's a hero now. Here's I'm gonna say this and I'm gonna move it over to you. This is so important. Pastor John is a hero of the time right now. He absolutely is and we need to record we need or we need to praise God for him.

We need to support him. We need to send money if necessary if this thing gets difficult for them. We need to do what we can to support the hero of our time. But it's very important for us to acknowledge all of the small congregations that no one ever even heard about pastors who faithfully gathered.

Anyway, they examined the data they thought through the consequences and they thought through biblical principles of wisdom and they said we're not gonna stop Worship, we're not gonna stop baptisms. We're not gonna stop singing.

We're not gonna stop the Lord's table. We're gonna continue to gather and and come what may and there are brothers who faithfully led their churches Through this pandemic and they never shut down and guess what?

No one's ever using their names. No one's gonna talk about them and I want to say to those men praise God for you and praise God for your faithfulness Jesus knows and we need to praise God for for all these faithful men and right now.

Especially pastor John who's who's all over the news and right in the midst of this and they're talking about things like shutting off water. And shutting off power and throwing them in jail and they're talking about fines of up to a thousand dollars a day.

All kinds of things and pastor John is saying essentially go pound sand. We're not stopping. So.

The Church, COVID-19, and the Case for Open Worship

Yeah, no, I I Completely agree. I think there's a command clear in Scripture that the church is to gather that we're not to neglect. Of course coming together. I think for every pastor, of course, he has to make.

There's an element of judgment as you said when it comes to specific circumstances. But in this situation I think a church needs to be faithful just based on of course what we know this to be right. The only thing that's kind of been a little discouraging for me to see when it comes to more prominent Let's say pastors because like I said, there's been faithful men throughout this whole ordeal.

Smaller churches, maybe they don't have much of a name compared to like MacArthur. So he's the one that's kind of out in the front, which is great. But there's a lot of pastors too that could also take a stand that could be a huge example, right but I'm seeing inconsistencies when it comes to their willingness to to break up the church in a time like this and.

The arguments are using to have. You know either like a multi-site or home gatherings or a video feed. The arguments are using are the arguments that they were condemning prior to kovat, I don't know if that makes sense but It that's to me.

It's if you think that there is an issue as a pastor and you think that your congregation is not going to be safe. Then yeah, you make the judgment call as a pastor to protect your congregation. But when you're using argumentation that is inconsistent with argumentation used before then I think there's something there that.

Is.

Prompting you more so to make the decision rather than just the safety, right? It could be of course the the public ridicule whatever it could be, right?

We got that we never never stopped worship. We never closed down. We didn't we never halted the gathering of the Saints. We even had to move out of one of our locations that were renting from now to go to one of the only other churches In the valley that was still gathering for worship and we met there.

It's 45. It's a 45 minute drive away. It took a long time. Our church still showed up. It was it was difficult for us. We never stopped the normal experience and command of worship at Apologia Church.

And.

That was of course God blessed it. He's blessed a big time. We've actually grown as a church through coronavirus that believe it or not We really have grown as a church people are coming to Apologia Church as a result of Coronavirus and sort of the stand that we took which was surprising to us.

It was surprising to us, but I want to say that early on we were Ridiculed people told us that we hated our neighbors that we were gonna kill people. That we're guilty of murder. That was a charge made against us.

We're guilty of murder. We're hating our neighbor. We're showing that we have a shameful testimony to the world. So we were ridiculed for it From the very very beginning and we just we just continued to speak In in service and on this show about the biblical principles that we were meditating upon as pastors in terms of how we approach the situation.

Yeah, we weren't approaching it Saying I was born a free man. I'm a dire free man, and I'm gonna resist everything. We were saying here are the biblical principles. This is what God commands and Here's how we need to wade through this in terms of what we know about the virus, right?

And all we said at the time was even knowing then what we know now nothing's changed. Is that it would be inconsistent of us because what would it would mean for us as pastors is we'd be shutting down Worship by a decree of the government for something that we're gonna face annually, right?

And what we said was this is just one of the the arguments we had against it is we aren't closing down the worship of The Living God for something that we face on a regular basis. I am NOT giving them this as a principle or pattern saying You can tell me as a pastor to shut down the worship of God just whenever you please just because you view something a certain Way, I have the ability to use my God-given mind and the wisdom of Scripture to analyze the claims of the government in light of Scripture and Say that's faulty reasoning.

That's not wise and my answer is no so from the very beginning we were telling the government to go pound sand and we we had a message delivered to the governor of the state of Arizona pleading with him to do his duty before God to reopen the state of Arizona and That blessed some people a lot of people hated that we did it, but let's get right back to it guys.

Here is some more from Pastor John. Do you have or not have regarding? You know the reality of this particular virus, which seems to be very contagious.

Well, there are two ways to answer that as far as our church goes. We have no one in our church and we're a church of six seven thousand people that we know of who has had any effect. If they've had kovat, we don't even know of only a handful of people who had covered and they were without symptoms.

So we've had no issues there in the state of California. The statistics are about eighty five hundred to nine thousand people have died out of forty million. That means in California you have a ninety nine point nine eight Chance of getting through this without any final illness.

So the let's talk about that again, I think that's one of the most potent points he makes and it can't be refuted. Ninety nine point. Nine or eight percent chance. Based upon the numbers in California of sir of survival.

You're gonna close down the economy for that. It's a fallen world. Of course, every death matters. Of course, every death is tragic. It hurts. Yes I understand that it's a fallen world though. You don't destroy the entirety of your neighbors and their livelihoods as a result of something like this and pastor John I think is right on and I think what's important here too is at Apologia Church.

This this is I think I think this is noteworthy at Apologia Church from the very beginning we said let's obey God's law and Self-govern here under God's rule and say let's obey scripture when scripture tells the sick to quarantine themselves.

Let's hold that up as the principle. And so when people at Apologia Church, we had nurses. We have nurses that work with kovat patients. We have nurses who work in emergency rooms and intensive care. We have a nurse at our church.

That was was the intensive care nurse for kovat patients. We were of course constantly corresponding with her. Initially, we put her and others on quarantine when we brought him back. We had them all get tested.

Oh, you know, we said you should you should take a test and come back with a negative test all that stuff we were saying let's do this with biblical wisdom and Sanity and solid reasoning and let's do what God says and let's quarantine the sick and we told people from the beginning if you feel sick.

If you've had sickness if you've had symptoms over the last couple of days, you should not be at the gathering. We told people it'd be a great act of love right now. If you're not feeling well, if you haven't felt well this week to go ahead and depart the service right now.

We'll see it as loving to us and don't be here. So we were self-governing throughout this entire process and we did have people at apology at church that came down with kovat. Of course, all of us are out and about every day.

We have to go grocery shopping. We have to go here. We have to go there and what we did when people came down with kovat and they'd contact us and said hey I have kovat. I came. I've tested. I'm positive for kovat.

We put them on quarantine. We said well, don't obviously don't come to church. We're prayerful for you. What can we do to serve you? Can we help you with anything? But we kept them away. We kept the sick away from the healthy and we said to people if you're starting to show any kind of symptoms.

Don't come to church. Love your neighbor by not coming to church. But what we didn't do is do a preemptive Quarantine of all of the people of God saying no gathering for you. Well, I'm perfectly healthy.

I'm fine. I've been washing my hands. I've been caring for myself. I've been staying away from sick people and We don't say okay. Well, we're gonna go ahead and penalize you as though you were sick. And we're gonna not allow you to gather for worship.

The answer was no. I see the preemptive quarantine in Terms of principles that make it wrong the same as sort of preemptive justice, right? Like I mentioned and I think the message that I gave the movie Minority Report.

Minority Report with Tom Cruise. Well, what makes that movie so interesting is that that people are arrested and tried and sentenced. Based upon what they might do and now what what's the problem with that in principle?

Is you can't assume somebody's guilt when they haven't done anything wrong and you can't assume things and start penalizing a person. Based upon what may be the case in the future, right? And so when we talk about the issue of what's wrong with the Minority Report and preemptive justice.

The principle applies over here in the area of shutting down all of society and destroying Families and livelihoods taking healthy people and saying to hell with you. And what I mean by that is treating somebody like you don't care about them you're damning them.

You're saying to hell with you. In other words, I don't care what happens to your life. I don't care what happens to your wife or your kids or your financial situation. I'm gonna hate you. I'm gonna treat you as though I hate you by treating you as though you were sick and.

Everybody has to quarantine. I think that's a dangerous game to play. Yeah. Yeah, I think too. Um, I Much too that I I would love to learn when it comes to Biblical law and the role of the government to play kind of that safety monitor.

Yeah, and I think that's there's an issue there as far as the government trying to. To me I see an overstep of boundaries sure when it comes to trying to keep us safe. I. Yes, there's and you mentioned it before.

Where you have the parapet on top of the roof right or railing around your your rooftop so that you can preserve life and to to my knowledge you don't have so much of a Forced in a sense you must do this.

But if anything happens and your neighbor falls off your roof, you're responsible. You're responsible, right? Right, and and so that's much different than of course the government playing that safety right monitor, right?

Yeah.

So the principle there with the parapet around the roof of the house is the preservation of life. God says put a railing around the roof of your house, right? So you preserve people from falling off right.

Apply that with the general equity today to things like pools should have Fences around them so it prevents kids from drowning. Deep wells on property should have fences.

So someone doesn't fall and hurt themselves. Is that is that correct though that let's say, you know, I'm in Israel. I'm walking around. I see somebody. They don't have the parapet on top of their roof.

They wouldn't have got fine. They wouldn't have got punished, right?

It's it's if somebody had injured themselves. The law was you preserve human life. You didn't do it, right? Therefore you're guilty. And it has. You can also bring in questions about the axe heads that are that are loose.

You know. If you go out and you're swinging an axe head that you know was loose. And that's flies off and I hit somebody. There's there's guilt there because you you you avoided the preservation of life.

It leaves room for like you said that self-government. Yes, right complete leaves room for self-government and even well, you know when they talk to to MacArthur about opening his church It seems as though the assumption is that because you're opening up your church.

You're telling the people in your congregation that they must come. Of course, there's gonna be a call to worship. But there still is elements of self-government when it comes to even the congregation, too.

We had people who were who were elderly at first thought it'd be wise maybe just to kind of you know. Not come for a few weeks to kind of see where this thing plays out. That's right. We encourage that exactly because there's the that element of self-government and I think that's important.

I think these pastors because of the role that you guys play. There's a higher standard that you're held up to right and so I think for a pastor I think there are more risks. You're gonna have to take than a typical congregant.

Yes, and so I agree. I think that pastors in this time based on wisdom and looking at the numbers I say open up your churches. Call people to worship, but of course leaving that room for the self-government amongst the congregation amongst me.

Exactly. Exactly. By the way guys as you're watching this everyone in the live stream right now. Apologize for the audio. This is the best video I could find of this but the audio does sound a little janky there.

It's not on our end. It's the video itself.

Christ's Lordship Over the Church and the Limits of Civil Authority

So here's more the draconian things that have been going on to stifle this culture to stifle it educationally to stifle the businesses to lock down people and then to Shut down churches is just not warranted by the reality of the virus.

So we feel like we are the most essential reality in the world. Look Jesus is Lord. That is the Christian confession. It's always been our confession since he rose from the dead. Jesus is Lord. He's Lord of the universe and he's Lord and head of his beloved church with you read which he redeemed with his own blood.

He is the head of our church. Governor Newsom is not the head of the church. Mary Garcetti is not the head of the church. We respect them for their temporal officer leadership in our government. That when they move into the life of the church and tell the church what it can do.

They're usurping a role that they don't have. The Constitution doesn't give them the power to do that. And they don't certainly have the spiritual power to do that to usurp the place that only Jesus Christ has over his church.

Okay, let me read you something quickly from another pastor there in California. He says first of all, I want to stand with Pastor MacArthur and affirming the vital importance of corporate worship. But he says it comes down to four things the importance of worship love for neighbor Obedience to government and maintaining a good witness.

He says what concerns me about defying the state order right now is that it seems to prioritize number one the importance of worship. Is it the expense of two through four loving your neighbor being a witness and obedience to the government?

What do you think about those concerns? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

I'll respond. Oh, yeah. Okay. What you want to go or me you go? Okay, so I want to say this is something that was brought up on its it in the regular a very very poor argument when you talk about the need to Stay home.

Shut down businesses. I mean literally closed businesses all over all over Arizona. Businesses closed down. We have a church in the island of Kauai. Businesses closed down everywhere. Families left destitute because of this situation.

I want to know I want to know what about those neighbors. I mean just make it as simple as possible. I'll just speak briefly on it. What about those neighbors? We talked about loving neighbors. We're talking about a virus that has a in California a night over 99 survival rate over 99 and you talk about loving neighbors.

What you're doing is you're saying we should draw a circle around a small number of neighbors draw a circle around them and let's do we can to Ultimately love them and we say to the mass. The 99 more over here who will survive this or everybody else who's involved we say to them.

My love for you right now is on hold. My concern for your well-being. My concern for your kids. My concern for your employees. My concern for your financial future. My concern for your home. My concern for your cars.

My concern for your ability to feed yourself. That's on hold right now because I'm gonna draw a circle around this small Category of neighbors over here who are sick or potentially sick. So what you're saying when you say love your neighbors shut down worship to love your neighbors in the context of kovat.

Is that only these neighbors count right now? Everybody else is not of a concern right now. Everything that's necessary for their well-being right now. I'm gonna put that on hold and show no concern for it.

That's really the truth of it. So when someone says me you need to love your neighbor, I want to say can I just change that to this? I want to draw a circle over Everybody including the sick and potentially sick and everybody else and I want to say love your neighbors.