September 8, 2021 Show with Dr. James R. White on “Romans 13 & Christian Freedom to Refuse Government Mandated Medical Procedures”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this eighth day of September 2021, and I have been utterly amazed about how much division there exists in the body of Christ and even amongst fellow

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Reformed Christians over what we are about to address today. We have one of my very favorite guests returning to the program who is also a very dear friend of mine and has been since 1996.

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His name is Dr. James R. White, a theologically Reformed Christian apologist, popular conference speaker, author of numerous books,

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New Testament Greek scholar, seasoned debater, and pastor at Apologia Church in Mesa, Arizona, alongside

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Jeff Durbin, Luke Pearson, and Zach Morgan. He's also the director and co -founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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Today we are going to be addressing Romans 13 and the Apologia Church statement asserting a

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Christian's freedom to refuse government -mandated medical procedures. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

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James R. White. So is that when you called me? I'm sorry, I had you accidentally on mute.

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Oh, that's a good way to start. Yeah, no, 1996, is that when you called me?

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I actually called you around 1995, I think, but the first debate and the first time

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I met you face -to -face was in 1996 at the infamous Ambassador Hotel in Baldwin, Long Island.

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It's probably been closed down for nefarious reasons. Yes, I would not be shocked at all.

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But that infamous debate also, at the Coral House in Baldwin, with the very first debate featuring

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Jerry Matitex and yourself on Marian Dogma, and what a phenomenal time that turned out to be.

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Oh, indeed, and who knew that only a matter of, like, 20 years later, Jerry Matitex would lose on Jeopardy.

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That's right. And this is,

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I'm sure you have been perhaps as stunned, startled, and frustrated as I have been to begin to have conflict and uncomfortable exchanges with brothers and sisters in Christ, some of whom you have known for years and some of whom

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I have known for years, many years, decades even, who we agree with each other on 99 % of theological issues and we could go on and on, even most political issues.

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But then the insanity of COVID seems to have brought to the surface very tense disagreements amongst brethren, and this would be churchwide, but even within the

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Reformed faith. Isn't this absolutely baffling? Well, I wouldn't call it baffling.

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Maybe I'm just getting jaded or old or something. I'm not overly stunned by it.

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The reality is that what has taken place over now the past 18, 19, 20 months, whatever it's been now, has revealed the fact that most of us in the

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United States have lived quite comfortably with our views of government.

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We had been able to get along with viewing government as basically a benign thing you have to deal with, but it's necessary.

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I was certainly raised, you know, every church I went to when I was a kid had the Christian flag and the

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American flag up there on the stage and to be patriotic and all the rest of that kind of stuff.

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And so we really had never... We knew elsewhere that Christians had to deal with tyranny and totalitarianism.

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I read God Smuggler when I was in high school and, you know, it was thrilling and that's exciting and those terrible, horrible, commie

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Russians, you know. And then, you know, I went to Russia and Ukraine and found out there are all sorts of Christians there and had to work through the idea that, yeah,

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I used to think it was a great idea that we had nuclear weapons against these people, but, you know, you start realizing the world's a little bit bigger than what you grew up with.

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But now, to have it come home and to have us have to think through the relationship of church and state, what is

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Christ's kingdom, what's the difference between Christ's kingdom and Christ's church, are they the same thing, is one bigger than the other, what's the relationship between them, all that kind of stuff, most of us were able to just keep it a very theoretical part of our minds and turn off at any time we wanted to and not feel threatened.

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Now we're in this schizophrenic world where you wake up in the morning, at least I've confessed this many times, you wake up in the morning and you want to continue on with your life, you want to do what you've been doing, you want to be able to plan things like you used to plan things, and I wish

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I could still go visit my friends in South Africa and Ukraine and Australia and I'll probably never see them again.

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So, I still get up in the morning and I still ride my bike and I still do make plans, but then there's this new part of my life going, all of this could come to a screeching halt in a very short period of time.

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And it's that schizophrenia that makes us go, you know, I think

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I've been comfortable with conclusions that were theoretical, but now

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I'm having to put feet to them and I'm realizing that some of my understandings didn't fit with other aspects of my theology.

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And I'll admit that for myself as well. And this is an area that Americans especially could just sort of put off and live in two different worlds and there are some

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Christians who've decided we're going to keep doing that. So, in other words, there's still a lot of Christians who are going, nope, nope, government stuff is out there, spiritual stuff's over there, never shall the twain meet.

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Well, I think even those folks are realizing that that doesn't work really well when the government starts telling your church that you can't meet unless you have somebody checking vaccination cards at the door type of situation.

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And we know that's happening in Australia, so it's only a matter of time until it's happening in the

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United States all over the place too. And so it's a little late to be doing what we're doing, honestly, but isn't that how the church always works?

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We're always a little bit, you know, Roe v. Wade took place and all of a sudden we're sitting around going, what's abortion?

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We've not even thought it through. I mean, the Southern Baptist Convention supported it initially because no one, you know, this is sort of like, we don't know, we haven't really thought about this before and so now we're having to think about it.

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And is it causing issues? Yeah, yeah. I'm sure there's many a pulpit that was open to me back when

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I was the straight -laced, tie -wearing, really boring, unfunny

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Reformed Baptist that you first met. But, you know,

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I realize that, but for me it's all come down to, look,

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I'm a grandfather now, I've got to think about my grandchildren and my great -grandchildren and the very fact that I'm thinking about great -great -grandchildren is also, believe it or not, an eschatological conclusion as well.

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So, yeah, I'm not overly surprised it has caused this type of thing and I just know a lot of fellow believers, a lot of fellow ministers who are going, man,

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I had, I thought I knew what I believed about this stuff but I've got to admit that I don't feel comfortable with where I've always been.

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But, man, there's just so many voices competing for my attention now it's difficult to know exactly where to come down.

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Well, I think it would be wise for me to read a portion of Romans 13 so our listeners can get an idea of the difference of opinion where the body of Christ is divided over these issues and I'll read, let's see,

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I'll read 1 through 10. Every person is to be subject to the governing authorities for there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God.

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Therefore, whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves for rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior but for evil.

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Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same for it is a servant of God to you for good but if you do what is evil be afraid for it does not bear the sword for nothing for it is a servant of God an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil therefore it is necessary to be in subjection not only because of wrath but also for the sake of conscience for because of this you also pay taxes for rulers are servants of God devoting themselves to this very thing pay to all what is due them tax to whom taxes due custom to whom custom respect to whom respect honor to whom honor owe nothing to anyone except to love one another for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law for this you shall not commit adultery you shall not murder you shall not steal you shall not not covet and if there is any other commandment it is summed up in this saying you shall love your neighbor as yourself love does no wrong to a neighbor therefore love is the fulfillment of the law and obviously those many of those who are

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Christian and non -christian alike who are really strong advocates of obeying government mask mandates or even creating them themselves if the government laxes up on them and vaccine mandates they are convinced this is a very strong sign of demonstrating love for your neighbor and to not be in agreement with that means you are being selfish and not loving your neighbor and so let me start off just by saying that many

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Christians will look at these texts those that are in opposition to you and Apologia Church and many other

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Christians on their opposition to government mandates in regard to medical procedures and masks and so on they will say this cannot be referring to a day and age when all is well and good and wonderful because we are addressing a text which was written in a day and age when

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Christians were executed so if you could just start off from there addressing that common objection this is not some text for those living in a utopia where the government only does good and so on well

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I think that's one of the problems right there is that people jump out of Romans and they don't even do the basic things that we do for example if you're looking at what

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Paul is saying in the epistle to the Romans and he makes reference to for example

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God's law which as you read it he gives a portion of the Ten Commandments and says that in essence when you do what

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God's law says is good you are loving your neighbor that's how you show love and that's what the essence of the law was supposed to do in that portion of the law that was addressing mankind dealing with mankind what's amazing is that when people then look at Romans chapter 13 they don't see a real basic reality that certainly

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I have been emphasizing as I have addressed this subject over the past number of months but that is when

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Paul introduces the word good in verse 3 for rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior but for evil the first and most obvious question that has to be asked is how does the apostle

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Paul define the terms agathos good and evil as it's found in for example verse 3 when he says kakos is evil agathos is good what's the standard and what's amazing is if we don't think through it we can actually collapse into the position and there are

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Christians who hold this position that in essence the state gets to define good and evil it has the capacity in and of itself to define good and evil then why does

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Paul then in only a few sentences define good and evil and love of neighbor based upon God's law clearly

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Paul is not saying the state has been given carte blanche to determine issues of good and evil he would never come to that conclusion he's not there are people there are people listening right now who hold to a view of scripture and of the church and the state which is basically been identified as two kingdom theology where you have two separate spheres and the state is not dependent upon divine revelation and instead has a natural theology concept or a common grace concept that is considered to be sufficient for them to define this general good and evil type of an idea that will be different in some ways than God's law but should be close enough for most situations that Christians will face down to the earth and I find it amazing that you can go there and then immediately

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Paul's application is to go to the ten commandments and say here's here's how good and evil is actually being defined this is how love is defined this is how good and evil is defined and so this is key as far as I'm concerned in looking at what is being said here

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Romans chapter 13 is not a commentary on what the apostle Paul thought about the

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Roman Empire there is lots of clear discussion in scripture as to the

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Roman Empire and the role that it has in eschatology and as the symbol of of the world in opposition to the kingdom of Christ and the whole issue of Caesar is

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Lord versus Jesus is Lord and all these types of things there's really no question about any of that the issue is when

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Paul gives this generic command it has to be applicable wherever a

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Christian finds himself and so when we look at the description of what is when he asks the rhetorical question do you want to have no fear of authority then let's ask ourselves the question right now in North Korea and in China how would those words be interpreted and understood do you want to have no fear of authority well they live in terror of those who have authority at this point in time because they know that if they are found out that especially in North Korea that they will be arrested immediately for any type of public profession and in China it's only a little less worse than that but there are many many many

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Chinese Christians suffering in prison or who have been executed just over the past number of weeks we know they have full gulags and are making all sorts of not only

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Christians but Uighur Muslims just disappear so a simplistic reading of Romans chapter 13 would lead you to go well why do

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Chinese Christians have fear of authority they should simply submit to these authorities the problem is these authorities say don't be a

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Christian do not follow Christ do not read the scriptures do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus etc etc so clearly the what

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Paul is giving us here are very broad constructs and he's placing them in a context that is very clear because I say good behavior evil do what is good minister of God for your good if you do what is evil all of these things are not based upon granting to the state some kind of autonomous authority to redefine these things because in our land right now it is considered evil by the current regime to do what

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I did on the dividing line yesterday where I showed that picture of Pete Buttigieg and another man in a hospital bed holding babies talking about being parents and I identified this as a moral evil as something that is destructive to to the flourishing of the human family destructive to these babies it's a horrible thing and that is considered evil so is

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Paul saying I shouldn't have done that because the current regime tells me it's good to celebrate the redefinition and perversion of marriage obviously not so that kind of simplistic just submit to whatever the government says type of a of an idea can't be what

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Paul is talking about and I think one of the problems is the implicit level of antinomianism that is in much of evangelicalism and even amongst some reformed people there is a real hesitation to affirm that use of the law where that law continues to have even though it's in the reformed confession that revelation of God's purposes and intentions for mankind and most of us especially if we came into the reformed faith from fundamentalist type circle we struggle with that idea and we don't have that context to have a real living idea of the law revealing these things and revealing what it actually what it means to be loving toward others except that's exactly what

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Romans 13 ends up concluding with so it's fascinating that it's right there in front of us so what you see is yes we are to be in subjection to governing authorities and those governing authorities are described as those who do what?

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They are ministers of God they carry the sword for your good they carry the sword and they bring they are an avenger who brings wrath upon those who practice evil and so when you have a government that turns that around and practices evil this is not what the apostle

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Paul is referring to now immediately someone says oh but that leads to absolute anarchy because now it's up to every individual to determine whether they're going to obey what a government says based upon their own feelings wrong!

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The whole point is we have an unchanging standard there is that phrase and people get tired of hearing it but that's because it has a lot of meaning by what standard?

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by what standard? and we have to be clear in the proclamation that God has given us a clear standard and it doesn't change and I think that's going to become a positive thing honestly

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Chris in the future because people growing up in the current young generation have never had a standard in their society that was considered to be good and that would last more than a year

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I mean it's hard for us I hate to tell everybody because everybody thinks you're just some young fellow but I'm talking about whether you're actually conscious right now

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I just said something I was trying not to draw attention to the obvious insult it wasn't an insult just an observation of the fact that we grew up in a day where look 1971 was pretty much like 1972 we weren't expecting that what had been called good in 1971 would be called evil in 1972 but that's where someone who's 18 years old today that's their life that's what they've experienced all along it's hard for you and me to even enter into that and that's why they look at us like what's wrong with you people and that this really has created a tremendous sense of division and unfortunately it makes it hard for someone of my age to communicate with younger folks because my entire worldview is based upon consistency and consistency over time and things like that so I'm thinking we're going to have something really positive to offer to young folks and we can say how would you like to have something that actually will be true when you're my age it's something you can be committed to you can live in light of and in fact believe it or not there's something super special about passing certain things on to your children to the next generation we have lost so much of that concept that it is truly saddening and so I try to take somewhat of a positive view and say we need to be saying to the world this will never work this stuff that you all are doing will never work it will fail it will fail badly it's going to collapse and we have the answer and it's a beautiful answer we have to go to our first break and if you could locate if you don't already have it at your fingertips the

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Apologia Church statement asserting ok well I want you to read that if that's ok with you when we come back and then we'll begin to go over it with as much of a fine tooth comb as we have time to and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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chrisarnsen at gmail .com as always give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter such as you disagree with your pastor or your elders over something we're discussing or you're even a pastor yourself you disagree with your fellow elders your denomination

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I understand that those would be reasons that would compel you to remain anonymous but if it's just general questions please give us your first name city and state and country of residence don't go away we'll be right back with Dr.

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James R. White right after these messages I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries my friend

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Chris Arnson host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are headed down to Atlanta Georgia once again for the

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G3 conference this year's G3 will be held Thursday September 30th through Saturday October 2nd on the theme

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Christ is supreme over all I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians from all over the world to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching and singing including

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John MacArthur, Phil Johnson Conrad M. Bayway, Daryl Bernard Harrison and Virgil Walker for details visit

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G3conference .com that's G3conference .com Chris Arnson and I hope to see you

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September 30th through October 2nd at G321 this is James White reminding you that Christ is supreme over all

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Welcome back and this is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio If you just tuned us in our guest today for the entire program is

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and we are discussing Romans 13 and the

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Apology of Church Statement Asserting a Christian's Freedom to Refuse Government Mandated Medical Procedures if you have a question

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Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com

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Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA Before we return to that discussion specifically and the reading of the

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Apology of Church Statement the G3 conference is coming up as you know they are a major sponsor of this program so I don't want to forget to plug the

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G3 especially since you are one of the speakers and you are our guest today Yeah, did you notice

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I've actually graduated? Yeah, you're no longer in 5 o 'clock in the morning That's right In fact, what's the

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Friday afternoon evening schedule? Do you know? I can't remember right now

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It's me followed by Vody Balcom followed by Paul Washer Wow, the heavy hitters there

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I'm going to have to step up I know you'll do absolutely fine as you always do

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The event will be held September 30th through October 2nd and that will be held in Atlanta, Georgia for more details go to g3conference .com

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g3conference .com and the theme is Christ is Supreme overall Do you know exactly yet the specific sub themes that you will be addressing?

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Yeah, when Josh and the guys sent out texts and topics and stuff like that thankfully

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I was one of the first ones to respond and one of them was

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Colossians 1 so I'm like hey, that's home base for me so I'll be speaking from that tremendous text in Colossians 1 and hopefully folks will find it fine

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As you know I don't fly anymore I flew 165 ,000 miles in 2019

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I taught in Samara, Russia I taught in Durban and Johannesburg, South Africa I spent almost 3 months in London I was in Melbourne, Australia in December of 2019

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I just escaped in time and I've not flown since then and I will probably never get to see those places again so we are doing the road tripping thing now the ministry has a truck and a fifth wheel and if I say so myself

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I've gotten pretty good getting those things hooked up and things like that and that's how

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I'm getting to G3 I'll actually be parking at Praise Mill Baptist Church that's where my fifth wheel will be and then

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I disconnect the pickup truck and head off to the location and I come back there at night and there you go

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Very cool. I'm assuming you heard about the insanity that occurred with your colleague in apologetics ministry,

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Mike Gendron who was for decades an American Airlines flyer exclusively and accruing nearly a million miles maybe even more and he has been banned for life because he lowered his mask to drink a glass of water

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I didn't know that but I'm not overly surprised I was executive platinum

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I was moving toward the million mile mark and I can now say Kelly worked for them she lost her job along with 40 ,000 other airline employees and so I've heard some horror stories some real horror stories about the flight attendants on American I'm not stunned but yeah

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I'm just not putting myself through it anymore so does it mean

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I leave a week before I have to get there yeah, but I'll be honest with you what we've done, and I don't want to take up a lot of our time here but I think it's sort of cool what we've done is we've put together

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I hope you don't mind my mentioning this we've got an email address that churches can send just an email to and say hey this is our church this is our contact information and if James happens to be passing through it doesn't matter whether it's a

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Monday or a Thursday or whatever, let us know and we'd like to do something and so we have a map now of all these with all these pins on it and I mean a digital map obviously and I can just click on that as I'm routing myself because I put all the routes together and I have to make the reservations at the

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RV places and stuff like that and I started meeting with these churches that I otherwise never would have gotten a chance to go to at all,

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I mean they're too far away from any of the major places I'd be flying into and it's been a blast

42:17

I mean I met a woman sat down next to me at a little church, it was real hot somewhere up in Montana, they were having heat wave and I never would have been able to go to this place in any other way than this but I was on my way through up to the

42:31

Grace Agenda Conference in Moscow and this woman sat down next to me and tells me a story of her son who had sort of started wandering the world had jumped ship from a cruise line and now is in New Zealand someplace and found out that she was going to be able to come hear me speak and she showed me the text message from him you need to go hear

42:55

Dr. White speak, he's a goldmine of information and it was through his ministry here in New Zealand not my ministry in New Zealand but through his ministry online while I'm here in New Zealand that I came to know

43:06

Christ so you're just like, what? New Zealand?

43:11

I mean I've been there once and I'll never get to go there again but it's that kind of person -to -person, one -on -one out there in the boonies sometimes that's really, really exciting so I'm enjoying it,

43:26

I really, really am it's slow moving and everyone please be nice to those of us who are driving something that's over 40 feet long but yeah it's been exciting, that's how

43:39

I'm going to get there, Lord willing and if for some reason I don't make it I've told them that you'll take my spot, right?

43:48

Yes By the way, give our listeners your email address

43:54

Oh yeah, it's roadtrip just one word, roadtrip at aomin .org roadtrip at aomin .org

44:00

if they want to obviously this is for churches in the

44:05

United States if they want to just be on the list and I happen to be coming through and I happen to have the time if you see that I went by fairly close, don't get mad at me

44:16

I don't always have time to spend every evening doing something like that, but it has been really enjoyable to be doing that and to get to meet people in that way as long as we can keep doing it until they've got the border guards up and all the state borders and everything else

44:34

I'm going to keep trying to encourage folks that way and it's been really good

44:41

Well great, and I hope that the next time you have an inkling to visit the town where you were baptized

44:50

That's true Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, that you will let me know in advance so I can start scheduling speaking engagements for you

44:58

I might be able to sneak into Pennsylvania but I'll be perfectly honest with you and I don't think anyone can really blame me

45:06

I'm primarily routing myself through red states not blue states it's just wisdom and so Pennsylvania, yeah

45:17

I could probably sneak across the border there without too much danger right now but I've got a lot of folks in California they're like, when are you coming in our direction?

45:25

and I'm like, well not anytime that I want to right now unfortunately the insanity is just crazy

45:35

I'm going to be going south obviously in Texas and Louisiana and Arkansas and all sorts of stuff even down into Florida so we'll definitely try to do that at some point but we'll see you at G3 and we'll get to see everybody else at G3 I'm looking forward to it

45:52

Rich is going to be there, we're going to have a booth set up and as you know, even though I'm one of the speakers

45:59

I spend a lot of my time just out with the folks talking with folks and shaking hands and hearing stories that's the primary reason to go to G3 really is to get to hear those stories and talk with people and for some reason they always put my booth near a porta potty in the back end of the parking lot,

46:19

I don't know why but I hope that I'm relatively close to your booth where all the action is this time

46:25

I used to be, remember I used to be right across from yours? I'll be honest with you

46:30

I don't remember where booths are from year to year that's one technical aspect that I just I sort of moved from booth to booth

46:40

I was at Jeffrey Rice's booth for a while and I was at Mike O 'Fallon's booth for a while and I just sort of moved around and said hi to folks and hope nobody throws an

46:53

Arby's in my face or something like that because they don't like me because I can't think of people at only two

47:00

G3s ago who now would not be seen in public with me for Lovner money that's a sad reality but that's how much things have changed

47:10

If you could now, read us the apologies statement that we have included as a major part of our theme today

47:21

Just a little background we and every other church we have many of our people who are facing loss of employment loss of career, housing, etc.

47:31

because of mandated vaccine demands that are being made upon them we've put this together only yesterday as far as when it was made available and we do encourage folks if they find it useful to download it and use it as they see fit we believe the triune

47:52

God who revealed himself in his dealing with the people of Israel and then most particularly in the coming of the Son of God, Jesus the

47:58

Messiah and today in the ministry of Holy Spirit and His Church made mankind in His image and gave to man dominion over the world as His steward and representative in opposition to the assertions of secularism we assert that man's life has transcended value because of this act of special creation on the part of God God's law therefore is the highest standard by which man,

48:19

God's creature, is called to live and abide for this reason we condemn as a blatant act of rebellion and murder the destruction of the lives of unique pre -born humans in the womb the plague of abortion brings

48:29

God's judgment upon any nation or people who would place their self -claimed sexual liberty above that of the value of human life as God has proclaimed and defined it obedience to the commandment to preserve life is multifaceted and provides a deep and broad understanding of how

48:42

Christians are to seek to honor God by honoring life itself we also assert that while we are to preserve life we are to do so in accordance with God's will

48:51

God's law provides for freedom, for liberty of conscience and these realities are to be exercised by mankind in light of God's revealed will that man is to live for His glory always recognizing

49:01

His own mortality and the briefness of life we are not to live in constant fear of death and indeed it is for this reason that the gospel removes our dread of death and gives to us life eternal

49:11

Christians therefore proclaim Christ's lordship over all realms for as He claimed, all authority has been given to Him in heaven and upon earth

49:18

Matthew 28, 18 in light of His kingship we assert that men and women have the right to refuse mandatory medical procedures, actions, medications or injections whether these actions are ordered by the highest government authorities or lesser authorities, such as an employer or local magistrate they may do so when they are convinced that these medical procedures could threaten their life, their future health, their future fertility and their well -being.

49:44

Further, parents have the right and responsibility to make said decisions for their children as well without external interference we believe and assert that a

49:53

Christian's conscience can properly and validly submit to medical procedures such as in the taking of tested and proven medications and vaccines giving thanks to God whose ordering of His creation has allowed such wondrous advancement at the same time, we believe and assert that many sound bases may exist for a

50:11

Christian to refuse similar treatments such as when they lack long -term safety information have deleterious and dangerous side effects possible unknown impacts upon pre -existing medical conditions and originate from fetal stem cell lines via abortion likewise, one may be convinced that the demanded procedure arises not from a public health concern but from political machinations and activities that are opposed to God's truth and ways and hence are to be resisted we assert that the conscience cannot be coerced and that all such attempts to do so are in opposition to divine truth therefore, we assert in the name and authority of our

50:44

Lord Jesus Christ that we and our members have the right and the responsibility to research fully the issues relevant to all such medical matters we assert that free flow of information must be guaranteed and protected and that we have the right to refuse such experimentation and mandatory procedures including vaccination upon sound religious grounds we likewise call upon all government agencies, businesses, schools employers of all types to respect these deeply held religious conclusions and convictions and to honor our religious liberty and freedom by granting religious exemptions as requested and then there is attached below that a request that we are filling out with people's names to be submitted to their employers or whatever the situation they particularly find themselves in so we wanted to keep it short it needed to be only one page it is not meant to be a dissertation we certainly have a desire to put out a much lengthier paper that would expand upon many of these issues and I will try as best

51:51

I can to work on that but as you know we've got G3 coming up and everything is going to be associated with that so I'm not sure exactly when

52:00

I would be able to be actively involved in helping in the production of that but that is something that we certainly desire to do in the near future well we are going to our midway break right now and if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question again our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

52:20

we have a number of people waiting in line already to ask questions and have them answered by you and if anybody wants to get in line our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

52:30

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

52:38

USA please be patient with us, this break is a little longer than the others because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

52:45

FM in Lake City Florida who airs this program every day they need to, according to FCC regulations, localize

52:54

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and all of their programming geographically to Lake City Florida through their own public service announcements and other things that they air that are local in nature, while they do that we air simultaneously our globally heard commercials so please use this time wisely write down as much of the information as you can provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers to keep them happy and that not only means buying their products, using their services supporting their parachurch ministries and visiting their churches, but when you can do none of those things please at the very least respond to our advertisers and thank them for sponsoring

53:41

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio because we cannot exist without the sponsorship of our advertisers folks, we need the funding that comes from them, so please try to at the very least respond by saying thank you for sponsoring

53:53

Iron Sharpens Iron we'll be right back after these messages so don't go away I wish you luck one another as we walk in the light

54:05

Hello dear ones, my name is Justin Peters and my friend Chris Arnzen host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are frequently blessed to share great times of fellowship with one another at conferences all over the

54:17

United States we'll both be enjoying more fellowship together at the G3 conference in Atlanta Georgia Thursday September 30th through Saturday October the 2nd on the theme

54:29

Christ is supreme over all I'll be speaking there along with over 20 other speakers including

54:36

John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Voti Balcom, Joel Beake and James White for details visit

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Chris Arnzen and me September 30th through October the 2nd at G3 2021, this is

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Justin Peters reminding you that Christ is supreme over all fellowshiping with the family

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Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

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Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission, to foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God.

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. As host of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

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The church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. Why can't we see

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A Prison Inmate Writes, I love The Moron Is The Moron My Brother, the pages are so soft and absorbent, but anyway.

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That's right. But you're still trying to ring that one for all its worth. Come on,

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Chris, we need some new material here. Well, the actual title is

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Is The Mormon My Brother? Discerning the Differences Between Mormonism and Christianity.

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And there are many others, including books they carry by Dr.

01:09:48

White that are published by other publishers. So go to Solid -Ground -Books .com, Solid -Ground -Books .com,

01:09:56

and always mention Chris Arnson of Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio. Before I return to our discussion with Dr.

01:10:02

White, just a couple of reminders. If you are a man in ministry leadership, a pastor, an elder, and by the way,

01:10:08

I believe those are the same office, a deacon, a parachurch leader, whatever position you hold in leadership, if you are a man, you are invited to the next

01:10:19

Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio pastor's luncheon featuring our guest speaker, Dr.

01:10:24

Conrad Mbewe of Kivuata Baptist Church of Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and founding chancellor of African Christian University.

01:10:33

And I'm sure, Dr. White, you would agree with me that Brother Mbewe is truly one of the most powerful preachers on the planet

01:10:39

Earth alive today, wouldn't you agree? Yes, definitely, definitely. And I urge everybody who can get to Carlisle, Pennsylvania by plane, train, automobile, or parachute to get there on Monday, September 27th, 11 a .m.

01:10:55

to 2 p .m. at the Bongiorno Conference Center in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Admission is absolutely free of charge.

01:11:02

You're not only going to be getting admission free. Everybody leaving there, or should

01:11:07

I say everybody attending there, will be leaving with a heavy sack of brand new books personally selected by me, donated by major Christian publishers across the

01:11:18

United States and the United Kingdom. This is all free of charge. This is the brainchild of my precious late wife,

01:11:24

Julie, back in the 1990s, and we have been conducting these luncheons ever since and continue to do so in loving memory of my late wife.

01:11:33

So, if you are a man in ministry leadership, please send me an email. If you can make it on Monday, September 27th, 11 a .m.

01:11:39

to 2 p .m. at the Bongiorno Conference Center in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, send your email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:11:46

chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put Pastor's Luncheon in the subject line. Also, folks, if you love

01:11:52

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:11:58

click support, then click, click to donate now. You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

01:12:04

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01:12:12

If you'd like to advertise with us, as long as whatever it is you want to promote is compatible with what I believe, please feel free to send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:12:21

and put advertising in the subject line. I would love to help you launch an ad campaign because not only do we urgently need your donations, we need your advertising dollars as well to exist.

01:12:30

We have been hit very hard by the coronavirus pandemic hysteria because many people in our audience have been hit hard financially.

01:12:38

Some of them have lost their jobs, even lost their businesses. So please help us replenish that which was lost if indeed you love the show and want us to stick around.

01:12:48

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com and I'm sorry, that's ironsharpensironradio .com

01:12:54

and click support, then click, click to donate now. Also, if you are not a member of a local

01:13:01

Bible believing church, no matter where you live on the planet earth, I may be able to help you find a church because I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the globe.

01:13:11

And I may be able to help you as I have done with many people in our audience in all parts of the planet earth.

01:13:18

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line. chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:13:24

and put I need a church in the subject line. I may be able to help you find a church. And before I forget,

01:13:31

I try to remember to tell you this every day. If you are giving to ironsharpensironradio, please do not siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church in order to give to us.

01:13:46

In other words, don't give your church less money in order to give to ironsharpensironradio.

01:13:51

One of the main reasons I started this show in 2005 was to be a helping hand, an extension, a platform, and a friend to the local pastor and the local church.

01:14:03

And I never want to harm the local pastor and the local church in any way, including financially.

01:14:08

So don't siphon money away from your giving to them to give to us. Also, don't put your family in real financial jeopardy if you're struggling to survive by giving to ironsharpensironradio at this point in time.

01:14:21

Those two things are commands of God in scripture, providing for church and family, providing for my radio show is obviously not a command of God.

01:14:28

But if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to provide for your church and your family, you have extra money collecting interest in the bank.

01:14:37

You have extra money for recreational purposes and trivial purposes. Please, if you love this show and don't want it to go up in the air, please share some of that money with us by going to ironsharpensironradio .com

01:14:50

and clicking support. Then click, click to donate now. If you'd like to send in a question to Dr.

01:14:55

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, if you want to get in line and ask a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:15:03

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Now, before we take any of our list of questions, Dr.

01:15:08

White, I just wanted to ask you, have you gotten

01:15:14

I mean, this is really hot off the press, as they say. But I was wondering if you've gotten this quickly, any negative response, because after you read that, it would actually even hearing about all the infighting and disputes and debating about these issues, even amongst

01:15:35

Reformed Christians, it would shock me if somebody could find fault who's a Bible -believing Christian with what

01:15:40

Apologia Church and you personally have drafted here. Well, yeah, obviously, we haven't seen anything in the past 24 hours.

01:15:51

But we've been talking about this for months and months. And as you know,

01:15:57

Apologia never closed down in 2020. We didn't stop having services. We didn't go online.

01:16:03

And we've been pretty straightforward in regards to how we viewed all of this.

01:16:10

So there's a lot of folks who think we're just a bunch of crazy people. And so Jeff has done some great sermons on what it means to love your neighbor, fulfilling

01:16:21

God's law in that fashion, which is very much in line with Romans chapter 13.

01:16:27

I've preached on Romans chapter 13. Sure, we've gotten a lot of pushback. They look at us as those crazy abolitionists in Arizona and a few things like that.

01:16:40

But then all sorts of other folks are like, man, we really appreciate what you folks are doing. We're so thankful that you're standing up and you're making your voice known and you're calling the state to recognize that there is an authority above them and that they are going to be judged by that authority.

01:17:03

But it is true. I'm not one of those people that is going to try to disfellowship people for disagreeing with me on issues like this.

01:17:17

But it does seem that that comes a lot from the other side. And so I'm well aware of the fact that there's a lot of negativity toward this type of thing.

01:17:27

And let's be honest, you know, you remember some songs you wrote long, long ago that literally made me fall out of my chair the first time

01:17:39

I heard you sing them in a place called Tuscarora. And one of the lines from that song had to do with post -millennial hopes.

01:17:51

That was before you were a post -millennial. That's right. And so that was sort of prophetic.

01:17:58

I don't want to put a mantle on you, make you become a cult leader. But I'm sure

01:18:05

Rich Jensen, is Rich Jensen still a post -millennial, by the way? I would be shocked if he wasn't. Yeah.

01:18:11

Well, hey, look, I've walked the same path that R .C. Sproul did and ended up the same place he did.

01:18:16

So there you go. Anyway, there is an element. You can hear that element in what was said.

01:18:24

I mean, it's not like I put the word in there or something, but you can hear, you know,

01:18:29

Christians therefore proclaim Christ's lordship over all realms, whereas he claimed all authority has been given to him in heaven and upon earth.

01:18:36

So there is that element there that there are some eschatological systems that would not put it that way.

01:18:44

I mean, they would see Christ's authority in heaven and earth as primarily a spiritual thing.

01:18:50

And they would say that there are realms that he does not intend to have lordship over at this time, eschatologically speaking.

01:19:00

So some people might struggle with that. I've been very, very happy and thankful that this has allowed us to, and in fact, my embracing of post -millennialism has allowed me to have a number of conversations with brother pastors who basically said, oh, great, now

01:19:22

I have to think all that through. And so in other words, they know, they've sort of been skating along, and they know that these days are forcing us to think these things through.

01:19:32

And it's not just an automatic, oh, I'm never going to think about that. It's, yeah, I guess I'm going to have to, you're making me uncomfortable here.

01:19:40

And that's a good thing. That's a positive thing. We hope that,

01:19:46

I've shared it with a number of people, and it's been very positive responses so far from that.

01:19:54

But I'm sure there'll be some kind of thing. On my program yesterday, I even responded to,

01:19:59

I don't know if you saw, the David French tweet where he was promoting this guy named Chang, the

01:20:05

Christians and Vaccines website. And that's the opposite side.

01:20:12

Hopefully people can see a major difference in the assertions that we're making and the assertions that Chang is making and see for themselves which one has more biblical basis.

01:20:25

Okay, we have, usually I only read the first name of our listeners.

01:20:32

But since this is an individual who has been a guest on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, and he is the co -author, along with my own personal physician,

01:20:47

Dr. Joel Yeager, and Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke,

01:20:53

I will divulge his full name. His name is

01:20:58

Ernie Springer from Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and he is the co -author of Coronavirus and the

01:21:04

Leadership of the Christian Church's Sacred Trust Broken, an excellent book. And Ernie says,

01:21:10

Good afternoon, Dr. Wright. Would you please offer your thoughts by way of application to the

01:21:15

Christian in the pew who sit under elder authority in professedly conservative, reformed, and evangelical churches today?

01:21:24

Specifically, what are they to do about these churches which have patterned the narrative of the world and government by recommending almost in lockstep all the dictates of lockdowns, distancing, masking, and COVID vaccinations?

01:21:42

In this area, are Christians duty -bound to remain silent, speak up against error, or simply leave a communion led by unfaithful leaders?

01:21:55

Well, I'm assuming he means in that area, in his opinion. So, what's your response to Ernie?

01:22:02

Well, you know, you've heard me address folks many, many times on your program on The Dividing Line.

01:22:13

I always think that leaving any fellowship should be something that is done only very prayerfully and very slowly and very graciously.

01:22:23

And I've often mentioned that as an elder, having served as an elder for,

01:22:30

I don't know how many years now, coming up on, oh, 25 at least, that when we have folks come into a church and they are very quick to be blasting their last church,

01:22:41

I'm always very, very concerned about that because that normally indicates that we're gonna be having a problem coming along the way as well.

01:22:53

So, with all that said, I'm very hesitant to tell anyone to jump ship on any particular fellowship.

01:23:02

What I do want to see happen is the opportunity of people to have conversations with the eldership, and I realize a lot of people already have, but to have those conversations, make sure that there is a real clarification of the issue.

01:23:17

And if a family or an individual feels that their consciences are being constrained by unbiblical standards and norms, that before you leave, that you have a place to be going.

01:23:36

Don't just go become Lone Ranger Christian. Obviously, if you're being put in a position of being forced to do things,

01:23:45

I mean, obviously, if a church comes along and says, we are going to have a vaccine mandate, okay,

01:23:51

I really have a hard time seeing how anyone can substantiate this.

01:23:57

You would have to literally say that the danger of the disease is like Ebola, okay?

01:24:08

One out of every two people it gets that are gonna drop dead in the street. And that's not the situation.

01:24:14

With COVID, almost every church that I know of has had COVID rip through. And in some instances, there were bad results, but in many instances, we haven't lost anyone at our church as far as death or anything like that is concerned.

01:24:30

So it would have to be extremely fatal and so on and so forth.

01:24:37

And then secondly, there would have to be serious information demonstrating that these vaccines are safe, which would minimally, minimally, and up until the year and through the year 2019, this was considered simple common sense.

01:24:57

You'd have to at least have five years of meaningful safety data for any of these things. We don't have five years of any safety data, and we'll never have five years of safety data because by the time you, one thing is obviously true.

01:25:11

We're coming up on a year from when these have been really released into the public.

01:25:18

But let's say we've had a full year with the very first people who are vaccinated, okay? There are still four years down the road from minimum safety stuff that used to be required by the

01:25:30

FDA or CDC or stuff like that, but they've thrown all that stuff out the window. Does anybody think they're going to be giving the same vaccine four years from now that they're giving today?

01:25:41

Nobody believes that. Everybody knows that it's going to be something different and probably by the end of the year or early next year.

01:25:48

So we'll never have the kind of safety data ever again that we were used to up and through 2019.

01:25:58

And so is someone literally going to say that a person's conscience can be constrained to participate in this experimentation because that's what it is?

01:26:10

Because we are all the lab rats now, and do that not only for themselves but for their family as well?

01:26:18

Is anyone really going to say that there is absolutely no logical basis for making this kind of an argument?

01:26:25

So if a church goes to the point of saying, look, you have to take this vaccine together with the saints, that's definitely time to go elsewhere.

01:26:39

And I can assure you that's one thing you'll never see happening at our church.

01:26:48

That's a real problem. But I would say forcing someone to mask is a real problem, too, because there are lots of people.

01:26:54

If you may recall, and I know people don't remember things like this, but if you may recall when this first started, all of the written material said, unless you have a medical reason not to.

01:27:07

They recognized that people with asthma, people with heart conditions, if you have a heart condition that would cause your heart to go into supratrial tachycardia by putting a mask on your face, well, that's obviously much more dangerous than anything that the mask can do, which we know is a big stinking lie anyways.

01:27:29

But all that stuff's gone now. You don't even hear people talking about that type of thing. So in those instances, if there really would be that kind of draconian, yeah, you gotta do it, then you've not been given a choice.

01:27:44

You've not been handed an opportunity to actually discuss these things from a biblical perspective and actually talk about what it means to love neighbor, what it means to save life.

01:27:55

And at that point, I don't see how you have much of a choice. But as much as it depends upon you, if you have to leave, you have to do so as graciously as you possibly can.

01:28:09

But it's a sad, sad thing to have to see that type of thing happening. Thank you so much,

01:28:15

Ernie. And just want to give a shout out again to my personal physician who coauthored that book with Ernie Springer and Dr.

01:28:24

Daniel O 'Rourke, Dr. Joel Yeager at Heritage Family Health in Pennsylvania.

01:28:32

If anybody listening wants to look at their mask exemption form for your children, if the school boards, whatever school your children are enrolled, are mandating masks for children,

01:28:47

Dr. Yeager has developed, created a mask exemption form.

01:28:54

Go to HeritageFamilyHealth .org, HeritageFamilyHealth .org.

01:29:01

And you can see that mask exemption thing, whatever you want to call it, option, option to click.

01:29:14

And you can download it and so on. And James, this might interest you.

01:29:19

The very first day that Dr. Yeager posted this form on his website, within 24 hours, he had 20 ,000 downloads.

01:29:29

Wow. Wow. Well, yeah, you know, it is child abuse on children to be doing this to them.

01:29:38

I won't get into the specifics as to all that because other people have done it better than I could. But it is astonishing to me as a person now in my older years.

01:29:50

I'm just I'm just devastated at the selfishness of my generation. What we have been willing to demand of children allegedly to protect us.

01:30:03

I thought when we were younger, we recognized that we would give ourselves for our children.

01:30:09

But now it's give the children for ourselves. That says something about how how the

01:30:14

United States has changed and radically over the course of my life. That's for sure. By the way, if anybody wants to order coronavirus in the leadership of the

01:30:22

Christian Church, a sacred trust broken, go to Amazon and order that.

01:30:28

And you could type in the search engine. Ernie Springer. E. R.

01:30:34

N. I. E. S. P. R. I. N. G. E. R. And that will come up. If you scroll down long enough, you'll you'll find that coronavirus in the leadership of the

01:30:44

Christian Church, a sacred trust broken. We have a question from a very dear friend of mine.

01:30:53

Again, I only usually give first names, but in this case, since he is a pastor of a church that I heartily recommend.

01:31:02

Not hardly, but heartily. Even though it's an

01:31:08

Armenian church, I would join this church if there were no reformed churches around.

01:31:15

This area and or even if there were only reformed churches that were pastored by authoritarian nut jobs,

01:31:26

I would I would join this church because this brother is has such a heart of a true shepherd.

01:31:34

He is one of the most humble brethren I've ever met. And I just love him to death. His name is

01:31:40

George Jensen, lead pastor of the First Enola Church of God.

01:31:46

Or I'm sorry, Enola First Church of God. Very grammatically incorrect, I think. But Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania.

01:31:55

And Pastor George says that he is having a troubled conscience because of the fact that they shut down the

01:32:06

Enola First Church of God way too long and deprived the members and even visitors from hearing the word of God preached in person and receive the ordinances.

01:32:22

And he is considering having either an event that is conducted solely by his own congregation or perhaps an event that involves multiple congregations who are on the same page where it is a day of repentance and prayer for the shutting down of the church in a prolonged manner.

01:32:48

He is not personally convicted that he sinned for temporarily shutting down the church before they knew more about the dangers of the coronavirus.

01:32:59

But he believes that they went way above and beyond the call of duty in a negative way.

01:33:06

They sadly obeyed the authorities far too much in this regard.

01:33:12

And basically, he's leaning more towards your position on this. He wants to know what your thoughts are on having an event like this.

01:33:18

Yeah, you know, as soon as you start mentioning what the situation was, the main thought in my mind was, if you become convinced of that, hopefully that's a...

01:33:46

You know, that type of thing. And then when it became, started getting more and more clear that there was much more to this and that there was background that we didn't have, the fear of what the culture was going to say, the fear of what the world was going to say, became an issue that had to be dealt with.

01:34:08

And I think positively, a lot of people have now had to think through how important, for example, having the

01:34:16

Lord's Supper is. It's astonishing to me that there are still churches in certain areas of the

01:34:21

United States and elsewhere in the world that have not celebrated the Lord's Supper since March of 2020 out of fear of this virus.

01:34:31

And I hope, anyways, for a lot of people, the importance of the gathering of the saints, the proclamation of the truth, the celebration of the

01:34:43

Lord's Supper, the observation of the celebration of baptism, etc., etc., that we've been challenged to develop a much deeper theology of that and appreciation of that and understanding of that.

01:34:56

And now we start to understand why, in the early church, the church was willing to risk life and limb to meet in that way, why the

01:35:05

Russian church, in hiding under the Soviets, would meet out in the woods and in the cold, but still have the supper and have the fellowship and things like that.

01:35:16

I think we're starting to understand that a little bit better, and hopefully we won't just immediately forget about it either in the future.

01:35:22

I don't think the states can allow us to do that. So my thought when I first heard it was, well, as long as that has been explained to the congregation and that that has become a learning moment and a moment of edification and stuff like that, that's great.

01:35:39

And yeah, if you want to do something like that as a church or as a group of churches that together want to say, you know, this thing that we do is not just a social club.

01:35:55

Christ says he gathers with his people when they proclaim his death until he comes to the supper, and these things are vitally important.

01:36:03

They're acts of worship, and they are a means by which Christ's kingdom is being established in the world, and we're not going to let that flip and slide again.

01:36:14

We're going to recognize the importance of these things. That's a beautiful thing. That's a wonderful thing.

01:36:20

Yeah, I would encourage it. Great. Well, if anybody wants to know more about this wonderful pastor and wonderful church,

01:36:31

Enola First Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania, where my friend Pastor George Jensen is the lead pastor, go to EnolaCoG .com,

01:36:43

E -N -O -L -A -C -O -G .com. Thanks a lot, Pastor George, for your excellent idea, your excellent question and your friendship.

01:36:54

We're going to go to the final break right now, so I don't have to interrupt James in the mid -sentence, and this will be a lot shorter than the other breaks.

01:37:02

If you care to join us with a question of your own and get in line to have that question asked and answered, our e -mail address once again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

01:37:12

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -G -E -N -Z, and I misspelled my own name,

01:37:19

A -R -N -Z -E -N, at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

01:37:26

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. Back together again, yeah.

01:37:34

Back together again, yeah. Hi, I'm Phil Johnson, host and executive director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur.

01:37:47

I hope you plan to join me and Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, for the

01:37:53

G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd.

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The theme this year is Christ is supreme over all. My friend Chris Arnzen and I will be joined by several of our other friends, including

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More than 20 other speakers will be joining us, and the lineup this year includes my pastor, John MacArthur.

01:38:20

For details, visit G3conference .com. That's G3conference .com.

01:38:26

Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you September 30th through October 2nd at G3 2021.

01:38:34

This is Phil Johnson reminding you that Christ is supreme over all. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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01:45:39

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

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ignitedbytheword .org, ignitedbytheword .org and mention Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Dr. White, we have

01:48:33

Blake from Lakeside, California. I think he may be a first -time listener or questioner,

01:48:38

I should say. Why does Dr. White hate Chinese food so much? He loves the smell but hates the taste of it.

01:48:48

Kind of weird if you ask me. I need to know how this person knows this.

01:48:55

I don't know. His name is Blake. Where is he from? He's from Lakeside, California. Does that sound familiar?

01:49:03

Well, no, it doesn't, but it is fairly well -known that that is my position.

01:49:13

You've never even tasted it, actually, have you? Oh yeah, I have, and I couldn't stand it, but it smells great.

01:49:21

And the same thing with coffee, right? Oh no, you hate the smell of coffee. Yeah, well, I've been stuck around people like you for so long.

01:49:31

You know, if you hate it, you're just going to be miserable all the time. So even my wife makes it. But I just can't stand its taste, no.

01:49:40

Okay, well, here are the real questions from Blake, or the sound ones.

01:49:49

Do you believe the book of Hebrews is the best book to do apologetics, especially dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses, regarding Christ having been given a greater name than the angels?

01:50:01

Obviously off -topic, but you care to answer that? Well, I don't know that the book is the greatest book.

01:50:13

There are clear passages. Hebrews 1 is extremely important, but so is

01:50:18

Philippians 2. So I don't want to say that one particular book is more important than another, but that particular theme in regards to the identification of Jesus as Yahweh is certainly found in Hebrews chapter 1.

01:50:33

That's a very important text, Hebrews 1, 10 -12, citation of Psalm 102, 25 -27.

01:50:39

And that's one of the most important ones, because it's referring to a unique aspect of Yahweh's existence, that is his immutability, the fact he does not change.

01:50:49

And that could not be applied to any lesser creature. So that is an extremely important text.

01:50:56

And there are others, of course, in the book of Hebrews, but it's in Colossians, it's in Philippians, it's in 1

01:51:05

Peter, for that matter. So I don't think there's any one particular book more important than another. Well, Blake, we don't have time to answer your other question.

01:51:13

We will get to that next time Dr. White comes back on the air with us.

01:51:21

But he does say, thank you, Dr. White, I truly appreciate your ministry and the books you have written for Alpha and Omega Ministries.

01:51:28

You seriously have made my IQ go from 50 to 110. God bless you.

01:51:34

Well, I think the first question would demonstrate that's a lie, but anyway. We have

01:51:42

C .J. from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who also starts with a ridiculous question.

01:51:47

Can you just sing a few bars of the song that Dr. White was talking about before? All right,

01:51:53

I'll just do this real quick. We've got high hopes, we've got high hopes, we've got how

01:52:00

Lindsay stick it in your eye, high hopes for all you amillennial, premillennial, pre -trib rapturous dopes.

01:52:10

Oops, there goes an amillennial. Oops, there goes a premillennial. Oops, there goes a pre -trib rapturous dope.

01:52:18

Okay. Now the actual, and by the way, folks, I am amillennial still.

01:52:24

I'm not insulting either of those non -postmillennial folks.

01:52:30

I will let everybody know that Chris is an equal opportunity insulter. He insults everybody.

01:52:37

C .J. seriously asks, do you think you could clarify a bit from things you said earlier so people don't think that you're inventing a straw man in regard to obeying the government?

01:52:51

There are some who would say we are not to obey the government if it definitely means physical harm or causing us to sin, but if the mandate involves something neutral and unharmful, isn't it our duty to obey it?

01:53:12

And that's an interesting question because I even had a guest early on during the coronavirus pandemic, as they call it.

01:53:21

And I found myself disagreeing with this brother throughout most of the interview. A dear brother,

01:53:26

Reformed, Orthodox Presbyterian, brilliant. But he was saying that if the government says that you need to wear masks outside only when you're gathering in groups, go the extra mile and wear it when you're walking around alone.

01:53:45

And I, on the air, disagreed with him. Right. So what do you think of that?

01:53:51

Well, I think that this actually raises the issue that I disagreed with Todd Freel about a couple weeks ago on my program.

01:54:01

Todd basically said on Wretched Radio that if the government mandated that you put pinwheels on your head to go to Kroger, that you should put pinwheels on your head to go to Kroger.

01:54:12

And I said, no, that's not what Roman XIII is telling us to do.

01:54:19

He thinks that it is. But this is where you get into the issue of where various elements of how

01:54:29

God created the world, how the issues of authority, a husband's authority over his wife, a parent's authority over their children, and here you're literally talking about dehumanizing someone.

01:54:46

Because wearing pinwheels is an absurd, ridiculous thing.

01:54:53

And hence, when you pretend to be doing something that is good, you're a minister of good to someone, that's

01:55:02

Roman XIII, and then you, in essence, violate that with something as absurd as wearing pinwheels on your head, this becomes a mockery of how

01:55:13

God has designed us to be, and the government has become a mockery of a government when it makes that kind of demand.

01:55:20

So I don't believe God's Word tells us that insanity is something that we are to engage in, just because the government says to engage in it.

01:55:29

So the question would be, well, what's neutral? I mean, there certainly are things that are neutral in the sense that they are adiaphora.

01:55:38

They're not things that are specifically contrary to the gospel or something like that. But they also shouldn't be insanity.

01:55:47

They shouldn't be so absurd that they dehumanize the people and help the government to control the people.

01:55:53

And I'm afraid that a lot of our folks don't recognize that danger. There's a quote, and I'm sure you've heard me give it, and we're out of time anyways, but there's a quote from Dalrymple who, in talking about how the communists would break people down, he specifically says they didn't try to convince you of anything.

01:56:15

They weren't trying to argue something truthfully. They were literally using contradiction and absurdity to break you down and to make you lie along with them.

01:56:24

And he said a nation of neutered liars is much easier to control than men who are actually thinking and analyzing what's being said.

01:56:35

So I think the issue with that question has to be, well, how do you define what is neutral? Neutral in the sense of not violating scripture is one thing, but literally requiring insanity of us is something completely different.

01:56:51

Yeah. In fact, we have a related question from Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says, isn't it actually not loving your neighbor to be perpetuating a lie that is involving something as serious as one's life and health?

01:57:13

Yeah, I agree with that. It's just like, for instance, if you were to perpetuate a lie from the government that says you are required, whether you are in a store, a restaurant or even in your own home, to spray your toilet seat with Windex to prevent the spread of AIDS, doing that would give people the false impression that that prevents the spread of AIDS.

01:57:40

And, you know, people be continuing to die of AIDS. Does that make sense? Yeah, well, and not only that,

01:57:49

I just remind people of the last words that Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote to the

01:57:55

Russian people before he was exiled from the Soviet Union. The line is, live not by lies.

01:58:04

And his whole point was that what totalitarians do is they force you to repeat lies and to live by lies.

01:58:12

To put the signs up in your shop to say, you know, the world's workers unite when you know that that's a bunch of baloney and it was accomplishing absolutely nothing.

01:58:21

So what he was saying to the Russian people is, do not live by lies because this breaks you down as a human being and it devalues what government is supposed to be.

01:58:32

Do not live by lies. And that's what I'm trying to avoid doing. When I know that a cotton mask from Walgreens is doing absolutely positively nothing, it's hurting me, it's not helping you, it's living by a lie.

01:58:49

That's one of the reasons I don't fly, is I don't even want to get into the argument, I don't want to live by lies.

01:58:54

It's a lie, I know it's a lie, so I'm not going to live by that. So the question is, how willing are people to live by lies?

01:59:01

And I think we're seeing that a lot of people are really willing to live by a lot of lies. Well, by the way,

01:59:08

Blake in California, send me your full mailing address because you have won by virtue of the fact that you are a first -time questioner.

01:59:18

You have won a new American Standard Bible. So give us your full mailing address, cvbbs .com, and ship that new

01:59:24

Bible out to you. I want to thank you so much, Dr. White, for, as always, being an extraordinary guest.

01:59:30

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write. I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater