Infant Baptism?

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About.

Theology. Anything like that. We'll try to answer those questions as well. Talk them out. Talk them out together if you would like to join me tonight. Maybe you can see in the comments. I'm put in there if you'd like to join me tonight.

About this subject and this discussion I can share with you the link. Anybody can can join me if they would like to and we can we can talk about this this issue together. But truth and love comes from Ephesians chapter 4 verse 15, but speaking the truth in love We are to grow up in all aspects into him who is the head even Christ.

So tonight when we have this discussion Or as I go through this article, I want to speak truth and love so first and foremost this This Environment will be safe and and my intentions are to be non-offensive.

So if you've noticed If you've noticed that the topic That we're going to be discussing tonight or looking at tonight it's it's infant baptism and and thus far I have tried to steer away from some of the differences between our denominations, but this one seems to be a topic that is Being discussed a lot in the in the circles that that I'm in.

That.

It's mainly Baptist and Presbyterian and There are some people who are Switching from one to the other. There are some that are taking a firm stance where they are. There are some who have switched and then switched back.

So this is a this is a very interesting This is a very hot topic at this time in like I said in the circles that.

I'm.

Communicating with right now. So that's why I wanted to to share that Topic and do this video tonight. It is not. It is not to be offensive to any certain denomination. So if you are let me start off like this if you are Presbyterian if you are Methodist if you are Lutheran and I think also the Wesleyan Church, I think they baptize.

Infants.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. If you are Wesleyan. If you believe in the essentials of Scripture Christianity if you believe in the essentials. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Keep on baptizing those babies if that is your conviction I'm not here to try to persuade you tonight against your convictions.

But.

Just wanted to start my own conversation about the topic and and hopefully I can Talk to some smart guys. I Have some friends that are that are really smart smarter than I am and we can we can have further discussion about this question about this particular doctrine in our churches, but please don't please don't be offended and I think this this video is about Going after one of your core Doctrines one of your core beliefs in your church.

It's not we're still brothers and sisters in Christ. Hold on to that conviction. I Enjoy having a conversation about our differences because iron sharpens iron and I can learn I have a lot to learn. I have a long ways to go and I can grow and I believe everyone else Can too, I believe everyone else is in the same situation no matter how many People attend your church.

No money. No matter how many doctorates you have. There's always room to grow and I'm in that position and I believe everybody else is in that position we all have room to grow and iron will sharpen iron when we look at God's Word and we rely on him and And what he has to tell us so with that being said There's that caveat that this is in no way trying to offend anybody, but I would like to have You know a discussion with you.

Um, thank you John for watching and if you have any foot input on to on the topic on the discussion I'd love to hear from you what tonight is going to be is Very very simple very very simple. It's going to be and even in Baptist circles.

If you're not a Baptist you may not be aware of this or even if you are Baptist There are different there are so many different beliefs. Sometimes we're naive and we think that I'm a part. I'm part of a certain denomination and You know, everything is just has already been nailed down.

And this is what everybody believes and sometimes we we're not even that area. But it is not the case even in the Baptist denomination there are so many different Branches and beliefs in the Baptist denomination.

So I'm going to put it to you like this I'm going to be looking at an article and Responding as we look at it and it's really not an article. It's just a list from my personal Baptist perspective and so I'm not representing anybody else is my my personal Baptist perspective.

One of my friends that I have met in the circles that I was referring to earlier I met him in in this circle and he posted this this website this article. And I and I told him that I would like to do a video on it.

So I'm looking forward to hearing from him. As I go through this article. But is that it is a list and I'm going to go ahead and put the website up. I want to share the website on the screen. Let's see here.

I don't think that you can see it. All right, the the website is purely Presbyterian it says it's a website powered by wordpress .com and the title of it is 20. And that's why I said it's not really an article.

It's just a list 20 Bible passages and this is the intriguing part 20 Bible passages that prove infant baptism now, of course. As we as I mentioned earlier you have you have Methodist you have Lutheran you have Wesleyan and you have Presbyterian and To a degree.

I think the the method Is different in different denominations and in how they they perform the act of infant baptism and their understanding of that that theology is different in different denominations.

So there is a wide array and and that doesn't mean Any that should not reflect any at all on Christianity on the Bible. It just reflects on us and our Inabilities to come together in in doctrine we're just human beings and We are and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't continue to strive and that's what I'm doing here tonight.

Striving to come together in doctrine and just see I'm gonna come out from like I said my personal Baptist perspective. And I'd love to hear from you.

On.

This topic as we go through. So what I'm going to do all this is is 20 Bible passages. No, no commentary from the author. It's he just writes out the verses that prove infant baptism. I'm going to read each verse.

And I'm going to give my so this is not going to be academic. This is not going to be Offensive or pointing fingers. This is not going to be. It's just gonna be very simple a very simple look because I'm I'm not a smart individual.

The.

Somebody of my friends are so much smarter than I am their their memories are so much better. And I appreciate the gifts that God has given them. But this is going to be my simple.

Response.

To each of these verses and you may or may not be able to read these verses as we look at them, but The website is purely Presbyterian calm, and that's where you can find this article. And let's look at the first one together now.

Remember these are supposed to be proves 20 Bible passages that prove infant baptism now. Here's the first one.

Genesis.

177 and I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed After thee and their generations for an everlasting covenant to be a God and to thee and to thy seed after thee.

Now.

Many many many of these. Just so that we don't have to spend as much time on the rest of the the verses that are like this. But there's gonna be a lot of the verses through the 20 that we looked at that are like this one.

Where. My first response is there there's no evidence there. There's no evidence. There's no mention of Infant baptism in that passage. And the response may be from my friends. That are that are Presbyterian or another denomination that would that would use this verse as a proof for infant baptism.

They they would maybe say that well you need to understand this the the doctrine of Covenant covenant theology. You need to understand covenants. You need to understand what he's talking about when he says seed.

You need to understand this verse so that you can understand that. And so that we don't have to go through this with with all these other verses I'm going to read them to you and show you the proofs that they give out but it's going to be Very similar with with many of these other verses.

Just like this one where there's no mention of infant baptism.

There is.

Excuse me. I was having a phone call and I needed to End it. There's no mention of infant baptism there there's no evidence for it and to me it's not a proof. These are supposed to be a verse that that has given me proof for infant baptism now.

I want to understand where Where these guys are coming from where my friends are coming from that believe in infant baptism. I want to understand it more fully. I want to understand it in a deeper way.

But when you say this is a verse that proves infant baptism. But you have to do a whole bunch of other explaining from. What does you know? What does covenants mean? What does covenant theology mean? What does what does he mean by seed?

Oh, and how does that relate to? The the covenants when you have to do a whole lot of Extra explaining before you can get to this verse. I Have a hard time understanding how this verse and some others are going to be a proof a Proof text for infant baptism, so I don't see it there in that one.

Verse number two. Or example number two acts chapter 2. Verses 38 to 39 then Peter said unto them repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ. For the remission of sins and ye also and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you and to your children and to all that are far off. Even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Now.

There's no mention of infant baptism here. It does say to the promises to your children. But it doesn't mention infant baptism. If you were just to read this verse on its own like we just did you wouldn't Come to any conclusions of infant baptism.

And like again Once my friend when my friend watches this video and then he comes up with a response. This is this is not a negative attack toward towards you or or towards my brothers and sisters that are Presbyterian or any other denomination?

This is just my reflection as I read what what I'm thinking as I'm looking at it. So I Just just wanted to to make that clear. You know, there's there's no evidence there and in fact Peter is asking. Or Peter is saying unto them repent.

So this is something that they must do and to be able to repent you have to have an understanding you have to have a knowledge of What sin is what transgression of the law is or what the law is? You've got to know what repentance is you've got to know The relationship between repentance and and the law and and who you're repenting to why you need to repent there.

There's to be able to do something you've got to understand what it is and and why you're doing it or or just doesn't make sense and if Peter's calling them to repent then How does an infant have the capacity?

To do that. I don't understand that so the the promise. The promise is for our children. But it's when they're you know at the the point where they can repent and and understand what repentance is and How to do that why it's important.

I hope that makes sense. And so that's that's a lot of what we're going to see here in these verses example number three it comes from. Yeah, you can still on the screen example number three Romans 4 11 and 12 and he received the sign of circumcision.

A seal of the righteous of the faith which he had yet being. Which he had yet being uncircumcised that he might be the father of all of them that believe. Though they be not circumcised that righteousness might be imputed unto them also and the father of Circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only but who also walk in the steps of that faith Of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

So I Hope it don't break up. It looks like I'm getting a poor signal.

There we go.

All right.

So with this verse with Romans chapter 4 verses 11 to 12 What we see here is again We don't see any evidence pointing to if you just take this verse as a standalone verse. It doesn't say anything about you should baptize your infants or why you should do that it doesn't even kind of Lead you in that you wouldn't be thinking about that or thinking about going in that direction but what it does say is that Abraham is is Not the father of the circumcision only but he's the father of Those who are not circumcised why.

Because he's the father of them spiritually father of all them that believe. Not all them who have been circumcised which which many who believe in infant baptism say that If baptism is a carryover sign where where circumcision was a sign of your belonging to the Covenant Baptism is going to be a sign that you are Belonging to the Covenant and it's a carryover.

It's the New Testament sign where circumcision was the Old Testament sign and so here It doesn't matter if you're circumcised or not Abraham is your father not because you're circumcised or you're not circumcised not because you're baptized or you're not baptized but because You believe so he's he's the father of our faith in in that instance our You know Heritage type father our father here on earth.

And so to me it points to evidence of the opposite not evidence toward infant baptism. I know that makes sense. If you guys have any questions or comments or corrections, feel free to jump right in. All I'm doing is going through an article Purelypresbyterian .com and I'm on number four four of 20 20 proofs that Was that 28 Bible passages passages that prove infant baptism?

So that's where we are. If you're just joining us number four number four is Romans 11 16. And in some of these we can go through pretty quickly. Because it's going to be very similar what we've talked about before Romans 11 16 for if the first fruit be holy The lump is also holy and if the root be holy so are the branches.

If you just take that as a standalone verse There's got to be further explanation and so I Don't see how you can make a list like this that say this proves Infant baptism because you've got to have a lot of stuff a lot of information a lot of other verses a lot of definitions leading up to Romans 11 16 to get you to where Oh 11 16 is leading me to infant baptism because standalone.

I don't see it The first fruit if the first fruit be holy the lump is holy so I'm sure they may relate that to The father being our patriarch the the federal headship and so The the children are are sanctified or saved or in the household when the when the woman is saved and the husband is not saved because we're holiness they kind of go in that direction because there's a There's kind of a covering or sanctification that happens because there is Christ in that household and I think this verse kind of leads into that but.

I.

Would need further explanation. We'll leave it at that. I would need for that further explanation of how this verse leads to infant baptism. And so therefore I'm not sure how it can be a standalone verse.

Verse example number five first Corinthians 7 14 for the unbelieving husband is sanctified and here's one of those verses if the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife and the Unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband.

Else where your children were your children unclean, but now they are holy. It doesn't say anything about infant baptism. We would have to have further explanation and lead up to help us understand why that why that refers to infant baptism.

From Your perspective if you if you hold to infant baptism. Number six at the same time said the Lord Well, I'll be the God of all the families of Israel and they shall be my people. You know, these are beautiful verses and.

And.

You know at At the same time said the Lord will I be the God of all the families of Israel and they shall be my people. What a beautiful promise that that you know, we are his people that Israel was his people that.

That.

We were his possession and there's so much glory and Marvelous amazing Grace and power and security and hope in these verses but It needs further explanation to help us understand what would lead to infant baptism.

Just because it says the word families We want to tie it to infant baptism. So I'm not sure about that how how all that works and how that tying together works, um number seven and All by children. Isaiah 54 13 and all thy children shall be taught of the Lord and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Beautiful verse.

Our.

Children should be taught by the Lord and and according to this promise will be taught by the Lord. But how it leads us to infant baptism, I'm unsure if you're just joining us. I'm sorry for those of you Who have been watching?

Just want to let people know where we are. We are at looking at a website here. Let's see if I'm back home. Can you hear me now? Let's see. Might be okay. Can anybody that's watching? Can you hear me?

Let me know that you can hear me while I try to set the on the website. That may take too long. But it's a purely Presbyterian Calm if you're watching, let me know if you can hear me. Give me a thumbs up.

Give me an okay. Let me know if you can hear me. I Apologize for the technical difficulties. I don't know what okay Kelly says she can hear me. So I'm going to continue. Thank you guys for sticking with me.

Thank you for watching. So we're on. We're on number number we on. Number seven, let's go in number seven. Number seven is Isaiah 54 13. I think that's where we are and all that children shall be taught of the Lord and great shall be the peace of that children.

Wonderful promise we want that to happen. But there's there's no proof there of infant baptism. It doesn't lead me to infant baptism. And if you're just joining me, we're talking about infant baptism tonight.

Meaning no offense to our brothers and sisters who are Methodist Wesleyan Lutheran or Presbyterian what we want to do is is look at a article from purely Presbyterian calm 20 20 Bible passages that prove infant baptism.

Look at them from my personal Baptist perspective and. Then we can get your your thoughts on it. Example number eight Isaiah 61 8 through 9 for I the Lord Love judgment. I hate robbery for burnt offering and I will direct their work in truth.

And I will make an everlasting covenant with him. And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles and. And their offspring among the people all that see them shall acknowledge him and that they are. The seed which the Lord hath blessed again We've got to have a lot of buildup before we understand that.

You're using this verse to understand infant baptism and here we could be talking about offspring.

Of faith.

I'm not not necessarily Biological offspring but but offspring of faith because Abraham is is our father. We call him father Abraham for a reason because he's our spiritual father in the faith and so.

Oftentimes.

We have that type language of spiritual relationships spiritual family spiritual father. And we don't want to get that mixed up. In the example number nine Isaiah 65 23 They shall not labor in vain nor bring forth trouble for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord.

And they're all spring with him. Yes, this is this verse talks about offspring seed. We're talking about you People that come after us. But again, no evidence there. Example number 10 Isaiah 40 11. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd.

He shall gather the lambs with his arm and carry them in his bosom and shall gently lead those that are with young. No evidence there. How do you use that verse to prove infant baptism and when I say how do you use that verse?

I'm asking the question. How do you use this as a standalone verse to prove infant baptism? Those are the questions. I'd like to have a conversation about it and learn more about um example number 11 Isaiah 59 21 as for me.

This is my covenant with them. Sayeth the Lord my spirit that is upon thee and my words Which I have put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of that seed. Nor out of the mouth of that seed seed saith the Lord from henceforth forevermore again, there there's no evidence leading us to Infant baptism in this verse as a standalone verse.

It talks about covenant. It talks about seed. It talks about this the seed seed. But you know as a Baptist from a Baptist perspective. You know, I don't have a problem with that. His words are going to be in hopefully in in my seed when he's old enough to Know what repentance is and and turn from his hands and put his faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

So that's how we would Receive and understand, you know verses like that instead of understanding it so to mean we need to baptize our infants. Example number 12 Isaiah 44 3 through 5 for I will pour water upon him that is thirsty and Floods upon the dry ground.

I will pour my spirit upon thy seed and my blessing upon thy offspring and they shall spring up as among the grass as willows by the water courses. One shall say I am the Lord's and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob and another shall subscribe with his hands unto the Lord and Surname himself by the name of Israel.

How can infants do that? Yes, he says he will he will do that for their he will do that for their seed and their offspring, but What are these seed and offspring doing? Um, he's pouring water on those who are thirsty.

Is an infant hungry or thirsty for for God they have that capability. You those here at the end of the verse. One shall say I am the Lord's, you know, the infants have that capability. We're prescribing it an event to happen to someone that Doesn't have the capability of responding and doing the things this verse says that The offspring and seed will be doing.

So I I'm just not seeing how This verse points us to or would lead me to infant baptism. And and again, this is another one where I would say maybe this is speaking of offspring of the faith. Example number 13 Psalm 78 verse 5 for he established a testimony in Jacob and Appointed a law in Israel.

Which he commanded our fathers that they should make them known to their children and I say Yes, and amen good verse great verse we should follow that verse and that's We should love that verse and we should Love his testimony and want to share his testimony with our children.

Maybe they're saying that part of that law part of that testimony is Circumcision which now in in the New Testament is infant baptism or baptism in general to a household. Maybe they're saying that's part of the the law the covenant that we should be teaching.

But as a stand-alone verse I say to this Amen love it. We should teach our children the the law the testimony of God verse 14 or not verse 14, but but example number 14 of 20 Bible passages that prove infant baptism.

It is Psalm 103 17 through 18, but the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting Upon them that fear him and his righteousness unto children's children to such To such as keep his covenant and to those that remember his commandments to do them we have the words children and we have the words children's children, but there's an action that is required that that is an action that is performed by the the the children those who are the the beneficiary of.

Of.

Faith in God and and the covenant it is those that remember his commandments to do them and an infant can't do that does not have the mental capacity to do that and so Once again, this verse does not speak of infant baptism.

It doesn't lead us to infant baptism. You have to have a lot of lead-up and understanding of a whole lot of other things so that you can use this as a proof takes for infant baptism and Even when you do it may it may say the word children.

But it gives some qualifications there to what these children Will be doing. Verse 15. Not verse 15 example 15 Ephesians chapter 1 verse 1 in chapter 6 verse 1 Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God to the Saints which are at Ephesus and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.

Children obey your parents and the Lord for this is right. Amen. No evidence that that I can see as a stand-alone verse for infant baptism example 16 1st John 2 12 through 14 I'll write unto you little children because your sins are forgiven.

Are forgiven you for his namesake. I write unto you fathers Because you have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you young men because you have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you little children Because you have known the father.

I Have written unto you fathers because you have known him that is from the beginning. I ran into young men because you are strong and the Word of God abideth in you and you have overcome the wicked one.

Talks about children has the word children in the verse, but it doesn't say anything about baptizing them and It's speaking to them, you know, I can see how You could use these verses and say it is speaking to them as as if they are members of some covenant of God as as they are Members alongside the father members alongside the young men in the verse in the context the children are Members alongside these other folks inside the covenant.

So they're being spoken to as if they are in the covenant. But even if let's say that's true we don't have any evidence of Infant baptism so that that's the title of the article 20 Bible verses that prove It looks like it is Set up to generation to generation generation.

Okay John I hope you don't mind. I'm gonna put you up here on the screen. But that's okay because it's a public comment and I want to share Your thoughts. John says looks like it is set up to generation to generation.

I.

Don't know if I understand exactly What you mean. So if you could give us another comment and a little more detail about what you mean by that I would appreciate it and it would it would help me to understand where you're coming from.

Because I would love love to know your perspective. So there's nothing in in first John 2 12 through 14 about infant baptism. Which is supposed to be a verse that proves it verses that prove it and and then another thing that that is possible I think that John often calls.

All of us.

Children.

Or dear children He uses that term for not just young people but of people of all ages. I'll have to look at these verses a little bit more. Is it possible that in these verses the little children the father's young men They the same the same audience.

Is that the case in these verses? Maybe I'm not sure. Even if it is even if it's not There there's still nothing leading us with these verses to to baptize our infants. You have to know a whole lot more background about where?

Where if you're a Methodist or if you are a Wesleyan or if you're a Lutheran or if you're a Presbyterian where you get your understanding of why we should baptize our infants and then Lead us to this particular verse.

Does that make sense? I'm not trying to and again, I want to reiterate. I'm not trying to Put down any any of those denominations because they're there are many of those denominations. That are my brothers and sisters in Christ and we can lock arms in the gospel ministry.

And I and I love doing that. Let me finish my thought. Um, I love joining together with with people of other denominations. Because we can get along if we agree on the essentials of the faith and here when we have disagreements we can Look and study together God's Word and let iron sharpen iron and we can grow in the faith together in these Other doctrines of the faith and so John tells us or this is what John says.

These verses look like if traditional not about baptism.

Yeah, I.

Get that Bob as well John that Even though it says 20 proofs 20 Bible passages that prove if a baptism As standalone verses that they're not they're not really doing it. But that's not to say that. You know, if if that's what you hold it is not a legitimate.

Um.

Doctor that's that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is I'm looking at a particular verse or article and and their claims in Those verses. I do not believe the Bible teaches it. And so like I said, I'm coming at it from my personal Baptist perspective.

And so I'm I'm basically showing you as as a Baptist. From from my Baptist perspective if I read an article like this, this is how I look at it. This is how I respond to it. And I hope it maybe will encourage you and help you.

That's that's my that's my goal. We want to glorify God in our and how we communicate with each other. We want to exalt Christ as we do it. So let's look at these last few verses together.

Um.

Luke 18 15 through 17. And they brought unto him also infants Oh, we have the word infants that he would touch them. But when his disciples saw where they rebuked him, but Jesus called him unto him and said suffer The little children to come unto me and forbid them not.

For of such is the kingdom of God barely I say unto you or truly I say unto you. Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall no wise so and no wise enter.

Therein.

So you've got to. You've got to receive the kingdom as a little child. Does that mean that you had to be? Baptized as an infant. I wasn't baptized as an infant. Does that exclude me? I'm being I'm being facetious.

And I'm being tongue-in-cheek here. But you know does that mean that that I've lost my chances to enter into the kingdom because I wasn't baptized as an infant because I'm not Coming. I'm not receiving the kingdom kingdom as a little child, which little children should have been baptized.

So I apologize. I was being tongue-in-cheek and facetious. Again, yet we see the verses talking about infants. This is a beautiful beautiful passage that shows the love of Jesus the the mercy and the grace the loving-kindness of Jesus where he would would bring in and Love on little children and Maybe here it's speaking of their Their innocence their their full reliance.

Complete reliance no hidden agenda. All they want is Jesus and in him fully. How how we get to infant baptism as These verses being a standalone proof text. I'm not sure Jesus is teaching us though that we have to have something.

Our receiving of the kingdom must look similar to that of of how these children Approaching Christ, but there was there was no baptism in this scene in this context, so I'm unsure about where they get this as a proof example number 18.

Isaiah 45 verse 25 in the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified and shall glory. So I Asked the question in my notes in the Lord. What does that mean?

Because.

Listen to the listen to the verse again in the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified and shall glory. Do you think every? Descendant of Israel Will be in heaven you know if you if you want to take.

If you want to take this this over this this verse kind of like an umbrella and say that it covers. It covers a whole group then you're working your way towards a universalism type theology where Everyone is saved everyone goes to heaven Jesus not for everybody and everybody goes, but we know that's not the case.

We know that not everyone What is going to go to heaven he even Jesus even said.

You.

May have said to me Lord Lord Did we not do these things in your name and he's gonna say depart from me. I never knew you and so there's going to be those who Do not make it who fall under this umbrella that this verses is talking about.

So we can't use this verse as as an umbrella type statement that we we baptize them because they are under this umbrella type covenant. Because the qualification at the beginning of the verse in the Lord and.

There's a discussion. You know if if the if the child is born into a Christian family then they are that they were in the Lord. They were in that. Underneath that umbrella and you can have that conversation and there's many who can make that you know legitimate cases for that.

However as a standalone verse you've got to have a lot of background context to be able to use these verses. The example number 20 the last one and then we'll finish up. Unless you guys want to to encourage us a little bit more with your questions or comments number 20 in whom this is Colossians 2 11 through 12 in Whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision?