A Little Bit on Infants, a Little Bit on Alistair, the Rest with More Carl Trueman

Greetings, welcome to the vying line. I've got the cough button over there ready to go. You know, we don't have one of those in the RV, do we? Yeah, no I suppose so. Um. Anyway, feel fine. In fact, I raced this morning in Zwift and That reminds every time I get off the bike I forget.

You can get these messages when you're in Zwift. Zwift is the largest online racing platform and Right now it's very very busy because it's January in you know, it's a lot of people are riding inside right now um, and I just do it all year round just for safety anymore and I kept getting these messages from Kay Johnson and I sometimes I wouldn't be able to respond because I didn't have my phone or my phone was on a different network and There's reasons why you can't reply and then I'd look for this guy.

I could not find him. There's two Kevin Johnson's. I know that I Would think would be seeking me out in Zwift. One lives here locally. And the other was my co-author. In the youth books that I did remember what's the dudes at the door and what's with the mutant in the microscope?

He was a editor at Bethany House Publishers a little bit younger than I am well a fair amount younger than I am and Finally a couple days ago. I get another message from I still couldn't respond to it.

But it says what's with the dude at the door? So I knew who it was. I still can't find him. I can't I I don't know how to track down people in Zwift right now and I But I need to remember to do that and I will I can guarantee you by the end of this program I will have completely forgotten everything.

I just said about that. Um, so Kevin if you're out there Dude, great that you're Zwifting. We'll have to ride some time together. Appreciate that. Anyways, yeah, I raced today and I've decided to come up with a new category.

It's the age weight category so I can actually in in this on this one website 60 plus is my age group and then it's got weights and so I can check weights out and In my age and weight category I won. I nobody was even close to me it was great.

Once you put that weight part in there. Oh. The old fat man is pretty good. But no, I I did I did pretty well. I think it was 227 watts for 45 minutes. That's not too bad. Worked hard, so I sound like I'm on death's door, but Feel fine, and it's just this stuff and I don't it's not that stuff's blooming yet.

Thankfully, it's not blooming yet. But man my tree dropped its leaves. I have one tree people have back at each like your tree. Yeah, we in Phoenix. We might have a tree. My tree dropped its leaves finally and I had that taken care of yesterday and Already you look at it and the buds are everywhere.

So it has it has like one day. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's amazing when you live in the desert and it's supposed to be 79 degrees days. That means it'll be. You know, it'll be 90 degrees in the Sun and it'll be 100 degrees in my truck when I get into it.

It's just It's coming again. That's just sort of how it works. That's just that's just life real quick. Matthew Vines Tweeted. Alistair Begg a non-affirming pastor recently encouraged a grandmother to attend her grandson's same-sex wedding as a way to show him Christ's love.

I'm grateful that despite significant backlash Begg has chosen to stand by his advice this week. It wasn't even same-sex wedding. It was a transgender wedding, which again, I don't even know how that works.

I Listened to Doug Wilson's response to Alistair Begg, which was posted like three hours after Begg's sermon dropped so it was pretty quick.

And.

Certainly agreed with the response. Amazing. Doug can absolutely nail something and. The people with derangement syndrome go after about every everything else including one particular guy who has derangement syndrome.

For me, too.

Anyway.

I.

Do realize that there have been a lot of simplistic responses to Alistair Begg that there were before the sermon there are after the sermon. There were a lot of things in a sermon that bothered me. He did say that he is the product of European Christianity England and Scotland and the people he named Certainly come from that perspective and but then he he contrasted that with fundamentalism and The people that I would think he would be listening to who have had the biggest concerns About what he said are not a bunch of fundamentalists.

Were reformed men despite whatever R. Scott Clarke says. Which I don't get this. I don't get to know what R. Scott Clarke says because he's blocked me on Twitter, but who cares.

And.

The the issue That we were hoping to hear addressed which was not addressed Was not a contrast between well, I think he completely blew who the older brother in the story was too But was not a contrast between Judgmental Pharisees and those who are gracious or something like that.

It's a completely erroneous Description of what the what the issue really is in my opinion anyways. The issue is the sacramental God-ordained nature of marriage and It's one thing, you know, it's a well Well, I advise and then then we find out this woman's not a member of his church You know, she is because one of the things that crossed my mind was is there So often and people don't understand this if they've never been involved in church work so often when you're a pastor there are attending circumstances that you cannot even talk about and So I cannot tell you especially in church discipline situations, oh my goodness The reason most churches don't do church discipline is Is because in this world and especially in a social media world It's a no-win proposition in the next world.

Okay, great but it's a no-win proposition because When you discipline someone Very often they will start Getting together with other people who've been disciplined as well And they know they start these rumor mills and all the all the slandering and the gossip and oh it and.

In.

99 of the instances you can't defend yourself Adequately because there's all sorts of stuff you can't talk about just it you can't. People would be destroyed. It would change everything. It's totally unfair.

It's totally unrighteous. It's disgusting, but that's the way it is. And so the the thought crossed my mind. Especially in a situation like this there might be stuff with the parents because this is a grandparent parents children.

So maybe there's something here. You know, I'm trying to be to extend grace here but this isn't even a member of his church so that that sort of takes that out and. So the the whole issue is Not being gracious.

It's and and so well, she she's just trying to keep her relationship. What's what relationship? The relationship already exists. She's the grandmother. This is I guess the grandson though. I've seen other people say granddaughter given it's a transgender thing.

Who knows?

But.

It.

It's not her duty to maintain a relationship when the grandchild and. Again we don't know where the parents are. That's not not come up, but the grandchild is in Self-destructive family destructive societally destructive rebellion Against God in his ways.

It's not the grandparents responsibility to maintain that relationship. The relationship exists by blood and.

And.

The statement was already made that they know that you do not Affirm homosexuality or Transgenderism I would assume and that you do not approve of this relationship. Okay relationship. What about? Pretending that this is a marriage because that's what it is.

This is pretense and. And it certainly has made me think about the reality that I think for a lot of evangelical Christians today Marriage is just a social construct.

The.

Covenantal concept of it that kind of stuff. It's gone. It's just not a part of even how Christians think about it. And therefore You know you could argue and people have and that used to be a point of Dispute and discussion really not much anymore.

Though it could be you could argue that more discernment needs to be exercised by all of us in regards to our Role as witnesses in covenant-making ceremonies, but no one understands what a covenant is anymore.

There is no covenant being cut in in this situation. None whatsoever. It can't be so. You put all that together and I can see I you know, you watch online and wow, you know, there's all sorts of Alistair Begg fans that are you know firing Rapid fire their direction the other direction and and then people who clearly never listened to an Alistair Begg Sermon or been blessed by one as most of us have.

I'm.

Firing the other direction and they don't know what they're talking about and it goes back and forth and vice versa and everything else and It's not it's not a pretty thing. But the real issues were not addressed by Alistair in his sermon and that That makes me wonder if a lot of these guys do not have a social media presence.

They're not they're not reading the stuff themselves. They're getting stuff handed to them or It's being filtered through to them because it just it just struck me that the response was just a massive swing and a miss and.

And.

It just did not show that he is aware of.

Who.

Has raised the objections. I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about pretty much all Reform men that I know of who have any presence in social media. I've said what it's talking about and Why is he was flying this way?

This should be about what marriage is and The fact that the church is under tremendous pressure in the society to pretend that something that isn't marriage is marriage and That hey, just go ahead and go along and maintain relationships just maintain relationships to what end.

What what is the so so now you're saying? What you should do is you should go along and demonstrate that you don't really have a Firm conviction about what the nature of marriage is or you'd at least have enough Integrity Not to countenance that by coming and bringing a gift.

Oh, no. No, no. You just got to keep all those channels open. So so there's nothing you can do. So do you I mean we can really start down a pretty dark road. When you start asking well, what about going to this or what about going to that or you know?

What what what about you know, we have gender reveal stuff. Well, what if they have and I imagine they do. They have parties for people who are about to get surgically mutilated should we maintain our relationships and go to that too and bring a present or maybe come to the hospital after Wacko wacko or whatever else they've done and bring some bring some candy.

Do we need to do that too? Wow, I I I'm I don't get it. I I don't Don't understand it, but that's what's that's going on. So You know, there's I've been asked to go on other programs and talk about. I wouldn't have enough to talk about I don't know the man.

I've never met him. We've never spoken to conference. He's scheduled to speak at Shepard's conference next month. Well, it's still January, isn't it? I'm sure it's in March. I don't know never been there and right and there will be um, but That's good that's gonna.

Because everyone's posting those pictures. You know in fact, there's a bunch of people speaking there that I had been told in years past would never be speaking there again, but That's interesting too anyway, so there's there's that then real quickly There was something we're oh, yes.

One of our guys has been Scanning through the Transcripts function on our website and Which again our enemies use just probably more than we do.

And.

It's it's hilarious because going all the way back and This is not it's not like this is something that I think about very very often. It's not like something that we bring up very often it but it does come up in phone calls and debates and Stuff like that, but the documentation that now exists of The consistency, I mean the boring.

Consistency.

That that I have had Over the course of My recorded ministry history at least from when I became reformed. I Guess there's something From right as I think it said it was 1987 and I think it was 86 is when I read.

Was it I guess? Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to know It was 86. 87 is the area where I read I chose my God and started reading reformed literature and so on and so forth, but I know that was after the atheism series that we did on the radio program and so Somewhere before I became reformed.

Wow. I repeated the perspectives I had when I was a kid, you know I was raised independent fundamentalist Baptist. So you had age of accountability and you know stuff like this you didn't have any emphasis upon Federal headship Union with Christ Union, but Adam.

Any of that kind of theology just wasn't there and But once I started addressing the issue so for the past What almost 40 years not quite there Just mind-numbingly the same. Just example after example from debates and radio programs said the same thing.

About elect infants, you know when people would ask the question I would answer it and say well. You've got the extreme over here. You got the extreme over there in the middle. You've got so the position that's you know Provided for you in the Westminster Confession of Faith in London Baptist Confession of Faith.

Where you believe in elect infants if an infant is saved is because of the grace of God.

And.

Just example after example after example, it's almost embarrassing. You know, ah, here's one 2005. Oh, here's one 2008. You know, it's the same thing and yet this whole group of people created a controversy they've done videos.

This one guy. Who's just? He's he's Joseph Smith and but smarter. I mean this guy could start a cult on his own. Someone sent me a video that he had done as soon as it came up and I saw who it was just clicked it off.

Just have any interested whatsoever. But they have spent hours and hours and hours on this stuff and. Someone even came up with a Geneva doll. Did you see that one? Where it's uh comes the smell of sulfur and flames and.

So you can explain infant damnation and all this stuff. And of course Cheryl Schatz. I mean there was a whole. I suppose there's a. I Kept one of the screenshots or something, but and it doesn't especially with her.

It doesn't matter how many times you tell her no. Once she has decided you believe something. She's just gonna repeat it doesn't matter how High the mountain of documentation is she has no connection to reality.

It's just it's just it's wow. It's scary really is but these folks I Don't I don't know that they sleep. Just the stuff they've cranked out over a nothing burger over. Look, it's it's chapter 10 Paragraph 3 of the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1648.

That's a long time ago. It's the same chapter in section Paragraph in the London Baptist Confession. And so hey. Here here's the here's the irony I pointed out in our chat channel, here's the irony. Hey, he's confessional.

Well.

You're darned if you do and you're darned if you don't. It just doesn't matter which direction you go. There'll be somebody shoot at you from from both directions.

But it it could be.

Mere coincidence. But it just seems to me When I have major debates coming up or in this case major debates with a capital S at the end Coming up that this kind of stuff happens that all of a sudden Controversies break out and I need to respond to this person.

I need to be scheduling debates with that person blah blah blah blah blah blah and It just does make me wonder a little bit given how Stupid you have to be to be. Just let's be honest You got to be really you got you got to have the IQ of a wet shoelace to have engaged in this controversy.

You really do.

The consistency of what I have said and all of a sudden in 2024 be having a hissy fit about stuff that I've been talking about since the late 80s early 90s and It's never been I've never written a book about it anything like that.

It comes up I had somebody on Twitter say hey, I was at a conference here at and and Justin Peters was there and He took a different view than you did but I remember what you said and yeah, you said the exact same thing then I'm like.

Yeah, I know. I.

Know.

We've been very very very very very very consistent on this subject. So for it all of a sudden to be turned into this faux controversy. Bail, but all gate. It really makes you wonder if there's not a little something more to it.

Then then meets the eye, but yeah, I was just looking at some more quotes that have been posted. And it's like.

Yeah.

If if I ever get Alzheimer's I can always go back and look what I used to believe anyways. Cuz there's plenty of examples of it all over the place and unlike Someone we know who has Alzheimer's that changed his story a lot over his the course of his political career.

Different situation there. So anyway Once again, just briefly please pray for Continued preparation. I need to have my opening statement on the it's weird. It's the last debate of the five. But I have to have that finished tomorrow and I'm almost there.

I'm almost done with it, but I'm it's probably the most Technical opening statement given the topic. I have to have it done because the man I'm debating demanded that he have it by that point in time and I Think that's first time it's ever happened.

Okay, whatever but Much more preparation needs to be done after that. I'm gonna be studying while on the road So I really don't need to have any problems.

So.

We are really hoping that the we got the truck back from the shop last week and One little thing that I had felt that had changed since we had first purchased it shimmy in the front end at certain speeds turning corners, they got that and It's got less than 50 ,000 miles on it.

You shouldn't be having that quite yet. So I figured you get it fixed early enough you can Keep stuff from wearing out faster than it should be. I know otherwise and the RV is got a new roof on it with hopefully enough glue To hold it on this time.

Yeah, flap flap flap. Yeah, that would be. Thanks, and then really thought about that.

And.

The refrigerator is working because I think I mentioned to you. The fridge stopped working on last trip and.

And.

Again every time something like this happens I find out why and then I'm like, okay. Well. At least I would know where to look next time maybe and we discovered something rich and I had did not know we had this thing for almost a year and We thought it was a 110 Propane refrigerator because that's what we had had before.

Where it was switch over to propane while you're driving down the road and Then it switches back to gas back to electricity once you plug in. It's 12 volt 12 volt refrigerator and most of you are like 12 volt refrigerator.

How does that work? That's what they're doing with all of them in RVs now because almost all RVs have so how solar and So do we got 400 watts up there? So why not use it? You've got. Yeah, we've got and we've doubled our battery capacity.

So it runs off a 12-volt battery. What whether you're I would assume when you plug in then shore power is doing that. But it's still only 12 volts. We didn't know now we know that yet every. See, I'm trying to look at the bright side something goes wrong.

You learn you've learned something more about it and It was a it was a bad ground and Anything made after kovat started let's just be honest. Oh Bad stuff. Yeah, you just like. You know the roof and everything else.

It's like but everything should be fixed and Well, we may not have there's a fender that fell off. You know, you know, there's super light plastic fenders. They have over the wheels one of mine got broken and and Whether I will have it for this next trip or not, I do not know.

Because I'm picking it up on to on Tuesday and if it ain't in yet well, it ain't gonna be quite as pretty as it would be otherwise, but Doesn't really have much of an impact on function. So it doesn't really matter one way or the other.

But on that she should be ready to go. So pray that. That we get to where we're going and we get there without incident because I need to be focused on what we're doing. Speaking of which need to be focused on what we're doing.

Need to jump back here to what we were talking about last week and finish up if we can listening to. I will. Once the founders Presentations are available. I'll take a listen to them if I can. Obviously if they become available in the middle of this trip, I'm not gonna necessarily be distracting myself with other things but.

This was Karl Truman's inaugural opening statement to the society of classical theology or whatever was.

And.

We have played a number of statements that we certainly agreed with and You know good insights and things like that, but now we're looking at some stuff where you'd go, okay. What about this what about that.

And Interacting with that as as we go along so we'll go back to it. I think I left The sound where it's supposed to be. I did. You never know about that. So let's let's jump back into it.

But the development of the Trinity the development of the doctrine of the Trinity in the early church is a highly variegated process. Whereby orthodox trinitarianism emerges from a complex set of shifting debates and discussions.

What that teaches us is this Nicene formulations don't simply fall off the pages of Scripture. To understand the doctrine of the Trinity you have to understand something of the history of the doctrine of the Trinity.

To understand why hypostasis arguing for three hypostases is anathema in three two five and Is compulsory in three eight one. You have to study the history of the debates you might say well. What has that got to do with me if you say the Nicene Creed?

I would suggest that you as a Christian certainly as a minister Have a responsibility to explain to your people what the Nicene Creed means and that requires you. Understanding what goes on between three two five and three eight one?

Now.

Again many things ouch that are. Sort of self-evident we have. Done extensive programs right here on the dividing line on Council Nicaea the Aryan ascendancy after the Council of Nicaea the Council of Constantinople in 381.

What he's referring to when he speaks of three hypostases one hypostasis between 325 381 is really all of this is not the development of the revelation of the Trinity, but the expression of the Trinity within the categories.

That.

Become prevalent in the West.

Primarily.

As We've explained many times in the past part of the issues about terminology and language was due to the split that is developing right at that time. Really really starts in the Third century and then Grows larger and larger the split between the East and the West as far as language is concerned the language of the East continues to be Greek the language of the West becomes Latin and so you have Serious Translational issues especially when you talk about.

The.

Ugia the.

Substance of God. Versus the Divine persons. What is what does persona mean? What what's the Greek term going to mean? What's the Latin term going to mean? Homoousius In the East Initially was a statement of modalism it was denial the existence of three persons and that had been dealt with in the second century in the East and Then when it's it comes up at Nicaea.

That's why a lot of people in the East had a problem with it because like We already said that's wrong because it's understand. It's understood amongst our people to mean this. Or no, we don't mean that we mean something different.

Okay? How do you deal with that? How do you deal with translational issues? So when we talk about the development of the doctrines of Trinity what I am concerned about is that in the majority of for example Roman Catholic discussion and again.

Whether they want to admit it or not.

The.

New classical theologians or whatever.

Are.

Promoting Roman Catholic Theological formulations on these issues and The books are recommending and and he during this conversation I don't I've lost count as to how many Roman Catholic scholars he referred people to.

Because Carl has said He's troubled by the fact that the men from whom he learned the most about justification were wrong about God and the Catholics were right. So he You're viewing this as an as an absolute right-wrong issue in regards to God and that's one of the problems that I have here is That we're not talking when we're talking the debates we're having right now is all Amongst classical theists though it does seem to me that many of these people are willing to draw the circle so tightly as to exclude people.

Who.

You know profess the Trinity and the deity of Christ and and Can give better biblical defenses. It's funny. I remember years ago When we were on Long Island The there was a group of Roman Catholic women who started coming to the various debates and You know they were sitting on the front row when I was debating Mitch Pacwa on the priesthood and so they're on his side but then they showed up the next debate I was doing that I think was with either a Muslim or a one this guy or something and So we were talking to him.

They're like Well we sure we want to be here because we don't have anybody that does what dr. White can do and It's in defense the Trinity.

And.

I just always think about that when People start getting really uppity about this type of stuff. So anyways, so it's important. I think To differentiate between The Trinity as it is revealed in Scripture And the Trinity as we Express it when encountering various linguistic groups languages cultures philosophies All of that.

It's not as if the Greco-Roman world is the only world that exists in our world. But a lot of people treat it that way and My concern is I have heard many a Roman Catholic say That you cannot derive the doctrine of Trinity from Scripture, and you just heard Carl say well.

It's not like the Nicene Creed just falls off the pages of Scripture. Well, I would say That which would make the Nicene Creed true. Does fall off the pages of Scripture?

And.

The language that is being used is being used within a particular context. Because you have an objective given revelation and in this context you have a teacher Arius Who is seeking to undercut the consistency of that revelation?

That's what he's doing and. So the language is used to detect.

That.

Fundamental denial of the consistency of biblical revelation, but it doesn't make the Trinity something that develops as a dogma to where it meant one thing at one point and something different another point and.

The.

The danger of going down that road is being illustrated right in front of our eyes right now. When you listen to what Pope Francis and Tucci Fernandez are doing and the many people working with them to do to accomplish this You you start to realize the danger of not seeing this on a fundamental level.

The fundamental relationship between authoritative revelation in Scripture.

And.

Ecclesiastical interpretation of that objective revelation and the utilization of human language to answer further questions about it, and of course there needs to be I think likewise a Serious examination of Just how far We are willing to go before we Hold up the hand and say God's made an end of speaking.

So should we and unfortunately.

Scholastics are.

Loath to do that and Part of the reason they're loath to do that today is because that limits the number of papers you can publish. Yeah, and that's one of the problems I think in Western scholasticism as a whole.

And so I think it's very important to keep that material in mind.

You might say well, I didn't realize that the Medievals took Scripture seriously. Just as an aside observation in order to be the equivalent of a professor teaching theology in the Middle Ages You would have had to have lectured and preached through more Scripture Than any tenured professor in any Bible department or seminary in the United States of America today.

Now.

You just just take that on its own and And the first thought that crosses my mind is you you read Accurate examples of Some of the Medieval handbooks on Scripture and things like that today and you just you just thank God for the Reformation.

You know, I again, you know he says well some people I didn't didn't think the Medievals took Scripture seriously. Of course, they took Scripture seriously. I I can't imagine anybody saying that the problem was the Scripture had become so encrusted with tradition that to actually get down to the scriptural level Was the problem and we've given numerous examples from Thomas Aquinas who?

At times can can give very clear Scriptural interpretation and then you turn the page and you wonder what just happened the connection to the actual meaning of the text disappears for a few pages and then Reappears for a while and disappears and it's this hodgepodge of stuff and a lot that goes back.

I mean, I would say the man who damaged Damaged the church more than anyone else was origin. Clement didn't help me but origin was the brilliant man whose brilliance allowed him to darken the minds of Christians for a long long time and That influence was still deeply there Was very deeply there and that I think that comes up as we continue here.

That's how seriously the Medievals took Scripture.

Now there are problems in their approach, but they did take Scripture seriously. Yeah, there's problems in their approach.

So I.

Point out.

For a long time that if you go into if you go into an LDS bookstore and man LDS bookstores are. If you want to be able to track how much Mormonism has changed over the past 30 years Go to a large LDS bookstore.

Bookstores as a whole are suffering. I get that Amazon has not been good.

But.

There were no.

Scholarly.

Exegetical commentaries on Romans for example from the LDS perspective and.

I.

Always said that the reason is that once you have the Book of Mormon doctor covers for a price. You you can't really practice meaningful exegesis any longer. You have scripture it comes afterwards. That is Meant especially in the Doctrine and Covenants to provide commentary from living prophets and.

That.

Completely changes how you would practice any meaningful hermeneutics or do anything like that at all and. So to say well, you know the Mormons take Scripture seriously. But they have some problems. Is is a little bit of an understatement, right.

And that's the point here. Once you get to the point where you have, you know, again these medieval manuals the sentences and things like that that Were accepted and by their acceptance came to have really a canonical authority.

You.

The reason the Reformation the reason that you could even use the term post tenebrous Lux. Was that that? Suffocating opaque thick stifling layer of dead tradition. Was torn away. Now we're getting people today saying it might have gone too far.

You know. But it was torn away so that people had access to the Word of God again and You could the the the depth. That you you look at Calvin's commentaries the the labor that went into that. You you you think about it?

Not only his physical state his 28 year long headache. No, no internet. Minimal numbers of resources available to him. And he's writing by quill.

Astonishing and.

Those commentaries spoke to us because they freed the Word of God from the tradition and They went back to the text. And now we have people in this very group criticizing Calvin. Because for example Calvin Recognized that a lot of the interpretation even from the early church had been imbalanced and in an indefensible.

And that's probably that's that's a problem with tradition. When you get big names that become imbalanced they create a tradition that can no longer be tested and can no longer be filtered out and.

And.

Calvin isn't an Anabaptist. He's not just throwing everything out. He is testing by consistency. Thing that's called reformed biblicism. Yeah.

Which it is. Which it is. There is a t1 tradition to trace the problem those old man. So it is t2 and that's where the theological tradition starts to drift away from scripture and become entirely determined by the teaching magisterium of the church.

T1 and T2. Heiko Obermann. He's gonna say he met him once I Attended talk about something. You don't even see the significance of for decades after I graduated from Fuller. We were looking at what to do after that and.

One possible option was University of Arizona because Heiko Obermann was teaching church history there. And I was already teaching church history at Grand Canyon and so I went down to visit and The visit was to Heiko Obermann's home in Tucson to a doctrinal seminar.

And.

The subject that evening was Calvin's response to Saddletto. So you can understand why when I wrote That piece I did on reformed biblicism last year or the year before.

Why I.

Especially drew from Calvin's response to Saddletto. I can't I can't think of a more thought-out Obvious example of the Reformers giving a reason in response to a Brilliant man. I mean Saddletto. Set up the Council of Trent.

And.

His letter to the Genevans was well-crafted and They had nobody to respond to it. So even though they had kicked Calvin out They had to go to him in Strasburg and say.