Biblical Masculinity & The Moscow Mood (with German Doug Wilson)

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Sometimes I feel the weight of the world Fall down on me, it's so heavy

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And I need a friendly voice with some good theology

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Calvinist if you're speaking, so I mix a manly drink Pepsi, shoe polish, and I hit the

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YouTube link Don't say hit, that sounds violent And I feel my troubles all melt away

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It's your Calvin's Podcast with Keith Barsky Beards and bow ties, laughs till sunrise

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It's your Calvin's Podcast with Keith Barsky He's not like most

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Calvinists, he's nice Your Calvinist Podcast is filmed before a live studio audience

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And welcome back to Your Calvinist Podcast My name is Keith Barsky and as always, I am your

01:17

Calvinist I want to thank you for joining me today And in just a minute, I'm going to be bringing in my guest

01:22

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02:22

Alright, I'm going to bring in my guest today His name is Tobias Raymond Snyder I knew

02:28

I was going to say it wrong and I think I did But I tried, so I will beg his pardon as I bring him on This is

02:35

Tobias, he is a pastor in Germany He is also known as the

02:41

German Doug Wilson So I am the Harbor Freight Doug Wilson So today the two of us are going to both do our best

02:49

Doug Wilson impressions for you As we go through this conversation So again,

02:55

Tobias, thank you for being a part of your Calvinist podcast today Hey brother, thank you for having me

03:00

And you got my name right, that was really good Well, praise the Lord for that,

03:06

I'm glad And I'm thankful to be connected to you We got connected a few weeks ago because you were coming to preach at Apologia Church Which is the church of Jeff Durbin and James White And I got an opportunity to hear your sermon which was entitled

03:23

The Belligerent Manliness of Christ It was a wonderful message and I thought it would be something that we could explore on today's podcast

03:31

Talk about why you chose that particular topic Was that assigned to you or something that you wanted to do?

03:37

I'd like to dig around in that and talk about really what the heart of the message was And that is that we don't serve a

03:44

Christ who is a weak man But we serve a Christ who represents to us true manliness

03:50

So later in the show we're going to really seek to dig that out But before we do,

03:56

I know that my audience probably isn't very familiar with you Especially you being from a different country

04:02

Can you tell us the church that you pastor, how long you've been a pastor And just a little bit about your background?

04:07

Sure, so I'm pastoring Evangelical Reform Baptist Church of Frankfurt, Germany The church was officially constituted in November 2016

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And I became pastor together with my co -pastor Peter at that time

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So it has now been almost eight years In the beginning I still worked as a lawyer

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I'm a trained lawyer and first I did that part -time And for, I don't know, three years now or so I can work as a full -time pastor

04:43

That's great, that's great Now, you know, I could probably ask you a thousand questions

04:48

Just about what it's like to pastor in a different country Because I've never even been outside of the

04:54

United States Except for the Bahamas, I've gone on a cruise And that's as far away as I've been

05:00

But do you find yourself, I guess this is a simple question Do you find yourself having constraints and limitations

05:09

That we might not experience here in the States Being in a European country?

05:15

Yes, yes I do So first of all, you are invited to visit us I would love to But yeah, so you mentioned that I just came back from a trip to America Five, six days ago

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I came back And it was amazing to see This was my third time in America But for the first time

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I really looked at it with Christian eyes, so to speak And it was interesting for me to see

05:42

That Christianity is still much more a part of your culture Than in Germany For example, we just drove by some place

05:51

And there was a man praying for another man and so on So it's not like that anymore in Germany Probably it never has been

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Because most of Germans Who call themselves Christians Have always been part of one of the big state churches

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The Roman Catholic Church or the Lutheran State Church Which we call the Evangelical Church And there has always been much of nominal

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Christianity But I think that especially with regards to To freedom of speech

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We are already much more limited than you are I'm under the impression that you can say things much more freely

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Than we can And that is something So I'm not really thinking about that I'm just preaching what

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I think I have to preach But I'm aware that a few things I have already said and might say in the future

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Could be a potential issue If someone wanted to take this up Sure, sure

06:59

And as ministers, that's always on our mind In the sense that we know we have to speak the truth

07:06

But we know that comes with consequences And I remember years ago watching a film Where it was about a missionary

07:14

And the missionary and his wife were in a meeting I think it was in Russia where this was happening And they were having a town hall meeting

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And they were saying things that could no longer be said in public And the pastor's wife, minister's wife

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Said to him, you know, somebody should say something And the missionary minister

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He said, well, if I say something, you won't have a husband anymore And she said, I would rather have a husband

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Than a coward, you know Or I'd rather have a dead husband than a coward And I was like, wow, that's powerful that she would say

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Somebody has to say it even if it's worth your life And that is something that we all have to consider

07:54

Maybe I can give you an example from Germany There is a pastor from a city in the north of Germany And he said a few, well, he said hard words

08:04

About homosexuality and transgenderism and so on But everything he said was biblically founded

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And he was, you know He's currently before the courts For incitement of the people

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So something which is biblical sound Maybe hard words

08:25

But biblical, fine And he has to answer for that in the courts

08:34

Wow We'll certainly pray for him, for sure Well, Tobias, I want to do something new with you that I haven't done before And this hopefully will be a little bit fun

08:43

Before we get into a deeper conversation I've come up with five theological questions

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Some of them are more serious, some of them are a little more lighthearted But just to get to know you better Five questions for the audience

08:57

Number one, who wrote Hebrews? Paul I mean the

09:03

Holy Spirit Okay, so you're a

09:09

Paul guy? I think there are good reasons to believe it's Paul Yes, I think the theology and the style

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There are some similarities Okay, dispensational, covenantal

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Or progressive covenantalism or something else Where do you stand? Covenantal, 1689

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Okay If you could have any story in the

09:36

Bible made into a movie That wasn't already made I would say not the nativity, not those things

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Any story in the Bible that you think would make a great movie And that hasn't been made before Hasn't been made, yeah

09:50

Oh, that is difficult I mean the entire life of Jesus has already been made as a movie, right?

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So that's out of the question I had a few things there that I would love to see I'm not sure if If the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah has been in a movie

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But I think that would be great to see Because, you know, when I read the story

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What I find especially intriguing is Well, for once that there is Yahweh talking to Abraham And he lets fire and brimstone rain from Yahweh in the heavens

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So I believe that you can see the Trinity Or at least father and son But then what

10:40

I also find very intriguing is How Lot is actually handling this

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To see how he really Actually didn't really do a good job as a father

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Because he married some of his daughters To guys that would laugh at him

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When he came and tried to warn him So he lost some of his daughters And sons -in -law in this judgment

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He lost his wife Because she turned around He had seen the judgment of God And he was so frightened by that That he could no longer live

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Between other humans He wasn't able to live in a city anymore But he lived in a cave

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Which again, really bad consequences for his daughters But I find that really interesting

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To see what effect it had on Lot To actually see the judgment of God How much this frightened him

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I think that is a story that I find interesting Wow, good answer Two more quick ones

11:47

What's your favorite podcast and why is it mine?

11:52

Seriously, what's your favorite podcast? We don't have really many podcasts in Germany At least none that I follow

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So it is an American podcast I really like Conversations with a

12:07

Calvinist But I think I would have to say The Dividing Line Because I've been listening to The Dividing Line For almost 10 years or so And it really shaped my theology

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So I'm the Christian and the pastor today That I am, at least to a major part

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Because of all the teachings I got From James White's The Dividing Line There are other good podcasts

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But this is the only one I have to choose I started listening in 2004

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And so it's been 20 years for me I do say

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James White is probably The teacher that has taught me most Even though I went to seminary and I had professors that I was in class with I've spent more hours listening to him debate and teach

12:53

And I attribute a lot to him as well So you and I probably could share

13:00

A lot of similarities there All right, last one, best sermon you've ever heard Best sermon that you can remember ever hearing

13:08

Okay, so I think

13:14

I would have to go With Paul Washer's shocking youth message Because that was the message that got me saved

13:21

Oh wow, okay, well that's That's about 20 years ago 20 years ago probably

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And it was for the first time that I really understood that God is holy And just, and that there will be judgment

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And that I cannot really I don't have anything to offer, I will be sent to hell

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So that was the first time when I really realized That God is holy and righteous

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And I got scared, I got scared of hell And I began to read the Bible and I began to believe the

13:54

Bible So yeah, this was a powerful sermon For me in my life Amen, all right brother, well we're going to take

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A one minute break, listen to a gospel presentation And when we come back we're going to talk about the belligerent manliness

14:08

Of Jesus Hey guys, I just want to quickly say thank you for watching this episode

14:13

And if you're enjoying it, please hit the thumbs up button If you're not enjoying it, hit the thumbs down button twice

14:19

Also, if you haven't already, please subscribe to the channel It really helps us out And some of you've asked about how to support the channel

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If you'd like to support us, you can go to buymeacoffee .com Slash your Calvinist and leave a donation

14:32

Most importantly, we want to make sure that Everybody who hears this podcast hears the gospel The word gospel means good news

14:38

And that good news has to be preceded by some bad news And the bad news is this, that we are all sinners

14:45

Sin is breaking God's law, so we stand guilty before the Lord of the universe But the good news is,

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God sent His Son into the world To pay the penalty for everyone who would believe in Him Jesus came into the world, lived a perfect life

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And He died a substitutionary death for everyone who will believe And He calls us all to repent of our sin

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To turn from our unbelief and trust in Him as Lord and Savior And if you've never done that,

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I encourage you to do so today Now back to the show Tobias, when you were invited to come to Apologia Church Did they assign you a particular text?

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Or did they just say, we want you to come and you choose? Because I know I've been to conferences

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It kind of goes both ways I was free to choose my topic What made you choose the belligerent manliness of Christ?

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I preached on that topic in Germany, in my church Two weeks or three weeks before I came to America I had some experiences in this direction

15:55

Especially during COVID When I stood up publicly

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I always preach I would say in a very direct and clear way

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So I'm not afraid of using Words that are very clear

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For example This is probably what triggered this most

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When I spoke about The pastors who during COVID Actually didn't really stand up To protect the sheep

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But even turned against the sheep And that happened a lot in Germany So that they would say, if you're not wearing a mask

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Or if you're not vaccinated You're basically no longer part of this church You're not allowed to come and worship with us

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So really bad things were happening And in one sermon

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I called those pastors hirelings I got really Lots of backlash

16:57

Even from friends who said You can't say that, that's too harsh This is just one example

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This happens very often People would say, you can talk like that Jesus wouldn't talk like that Especially when

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I came to America There was also this infamous podcast Where Lincoln Duncan talked about Doug Wilson and the

17:24

Moscow mood And he was basically arguing along the same line Jesus wouldn't say that,

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Jesus wouldn't do that He wasn't a mockerer and a slanderer So this is something that I experienced very often

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That people would come and criticize you And say, well, that's not how Jesus would have behaved

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That's not how Jesus would have talked And maybe Jesus would have said what you said

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But he wouldn't have said it in that way He's gentle, he's weak, he's humble, he's loving

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And so on and so forth And they tried to paint a picture of an always Meek and gentle and friendly

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Jesus Who would never say anything that would offend anyone And so I thought

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Well, maybe it's good to actually look into this Because, of course, we always

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Defend ourselves and say, well But Jesus did actually say some hard stuff But I've personally never heard a sermon

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That was really going into this topic And really showing how Jesus was and what he said

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So I thought maybe that would be a good topic To really show how Jesus spoke And not even spoke, even acted

18:39

We'll probably go into that a little more But I chose to Talk about some chapters from Matthew Matthew 21, 22, 23

18:50

And actually I had the idea to actually Speak on those chapters while I was reading the

18:56

Bible We have a Bible reading challenge At my church And so When I normally read the

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Bible, I just read a few verses And then I think about those verses But because of this Bible reading challenge

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I have to read at least two chapters a day So I read everything more in context

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And when I did that with Matthew 21, 22, 23 And I really saw everything in context

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I thought, wow, this is so powerful How Jesus speaks here and behaves here I really want to talk about this

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I want to show people how manly Jesus actually was

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And how manly he spoke And so that's where the idea came from To preach this message

19:42

When we think about the way

19:47

That Jesus is portrayed Especially in a lot of media It's almost always very

19:54

In one sense effeminate In that he looks very feminine

20:00

Sort of this Almost medieval look

20:06

With this long flowing hair It doesn't look like a first century Jew It looks like a 13th, 14th century prince

20:16

With the long hair and the long face Looks very English Yeah You know,

20:26

Wally Borkum spoke about this He had a sermon called

20:32

The Sisyphus Jesus And he talked about Jesus He's always portrayed with beautiful long hair

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He could be a shampoo model And with hands that never worked And feet that have never walked a mile

20:48

And yeah, that's the image of Jesus we have A very effeminate Jesus That always speaks slow

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Always is very friendly And never actually says harsh words

21:02

Yeah, and that's obviously not the picture of Jesus in Scripture I mean, the things that he said

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I think it was R .C. Sproul Who had a series called The Hard Sayings of Jesus And even that was just part of his ministry

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He would say hard things And he would say things that were very difficult for people to hear I mean, the

21:27

Syrophoenician woman With the language that he used with her

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That was attacked by There was a pastor Not a pastor, but he's a young man

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Jeff and James interviewed him Yeah, yeah, I know who you mean

21:46

I think he's homosexual Yeah, he is And he said

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I can't believe I can't remember his name But he said that Jesus was a racist

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Because of what Jesus said to the Syrophoenician woman And not throwing the children's bread to the dogs

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And basically by calling her a dog He was calling her less than Jewish Or whatever

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The things Jesus said are harsh But they're not ungodly

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Jesus never crossed the line into sin We would agree with that Jesus never once sinned

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And that tells us something And maybe I'll get you to speak to this

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It tells us something about When someone says something harsh

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Or something that seems to cross a line Of maybe polite conversation

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It isn't always sin Sometimes it's simply speaking the truth In a way that needs to be said

22:53

And maybe talk about that for a minute Because is belligerence sinful?

22:59

The title of your message is Belligerent Jesus And people don't want to think of that Because people think belligerence is sinful

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But it isn't I've heard some feedback from people

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That they thought belligerent Is a very negative connotated word

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But I think at least where it comes from There is the Latin in there

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Bellum, war The normal meaning is just ready to fight

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Ready to go to war And I think that is

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Something that we actually also have to be We have to be ready to go to war

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In certain situations And this, of course, normally

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There is Jesus even turning over tables But normally when we fight

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We fight with the words And we fight with the words of God That's our primary weapon, that's our sword

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So when I talk about going to war I don't mean grab your guns and fight

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There might be a place for that as well But I'm primarily thinking about how we speak

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And of course that differs Normally what you would see Is that Jesus speaks very friendly

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To those who come humbly And come in faith And he never sends them away

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Even with this Syro -Phoenician woman I believe he wanted really to test her And see is she really humble

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And she proved to be humble And then he did not send her away But she granted her her wish

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He was not just a racist, he was testing her

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And then he speaks very harsh To all those hypocrites And all those wolves in sheep clothing

24:53

All those false teachers and leaders He's talking very harsh to them

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But sometimes he's also talking harsh To his followers At some point he even called

25:06

Peter Satan That is really harsh And he chastises them quite a few times

25:13

Telling them, well, you're wrong So I think correction is very important We are even commanded to correct each other

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To exhort one another, admonish one another And normally we should do that In a very gentle spirit

25:31

But it's my experience even as a pastor That sometimes if you just speak gentle People just don't get it

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Sometimes it's important to shock them a little With speaking truth harshly

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But that really pierces their heart And they understand, oh, this is really something serious

25:48

I should start taking this serious So I think there is a place for that Especially with the hypocrites and false leaders

25:56

But even with fellow Christians sometimes One of the conversations that I've had

26:04

Very much with one of my fellow elders Is the conversation about direct speech

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And this is a term that he uses And I think it's helpful, I want to get your thoughts on this He has said to me several times

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That what sometimes gets him in trouble Is he's very direct, he's very straightforward

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And he said, a lot of people today Don't like direct speech They don't like for people to just tell them the way it is

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They want everything to be clouded In fifty shades of nuance

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Rather than to be straightly cut And I had another friend say

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Independent of that conversation He said he believes that that is an introduction

26:52

Of the feminine And here's what he was saying Not to be anti -woman or anything

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But he was simply saying that There's often more nuance

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In feminine relationships than there is In male relationships And again, whether he's right or not

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What he was trying to identify is this nuance Which is always trying to make everything

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A little softer, a little neater, a little nicer Where it should just be straightforward

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It should be direct speech And direct speech turns some people off They don't want it, they want the nuance

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They want everything to be clouded In fifty shades of softness

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And so, thoughts Get your thoughts on that Yes, that makes things much easier to accept

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Because it's not so hard, it's not so serious But if you talk directly

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You're really cutting people But that's what the word is supposed for It's a sword that pierces

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And a hammer that smashes Sometimes you really have to smash people To pierce people for their own good

28:11

The Bible speaks about that You like kisses from your enemies

28:18

That's what you like You should better take a beating from your friend We should admonish each other

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And exhort each other And it has to be in a way That the other person understands

28:32

We don't have to be mean But people are very quickly to say

28:38

Well, you're judgmental, you're not loving When actually it might be the most loving thing

28:43

To speak the truth and speak it clearly So the other person actually knows

28:48

What you're trying to tell them And it's not clouded And of course we live in a time

28:54

Where it's very much about our feelings And you can talk to me in a way

29:00

That would hurt my feelings But that's what the entire gospel is about It's hurting us

29:06

I just recently read a quote by Spurgeon Where he said we need this gospel

29:15

That actually hurts And when I just talked about The shocking youth message

29:22

That got me saved Wow, that hurt me a lot That really pierced through my heart

29:29

But it got me saved So again, I'm not saying be always mean

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Don't be mean You should act out of love But acting out of love includes

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To speak truth and speak it in a way That the other person actually understands What you're telling them

29:47

And don't have to try to find the meaning somehow

29:53

Yeah And speaking of Paul Washer Just for a little side thought on this

30:02

Is his demeanor And I've never met him personally But I've spoken to many people who have

30:10

And I've seen him in different contexts Not just in his preaching context But his demeanor tends to be very humble

30:17

At least it seems Tends to be very loving and even very encouraging

30:22

To people who are struggling And when you hear him preach you might think the opposite You might think that he's just a firebrand

30:29

Who's carrying around a sword Willing to cut people in half every chance he gets And it's not that he's two different people

30:36

It's not that he's the firebrand and the pulpit And the friend outside But it shows that there is a

30:44

Spectrum in ministry where we Give grace to the humble and law to the proud

30:51

That's Ray Comfort's maxim Is law to the proud

30:56

Grace to the humble You show the proud their need to repent And you point out their need to turn and humble themselves

31:04

But when someone does humble themselves You don't continue to beat them Like with the

31:09

Syrophoenician woman You show them love and mercy when a person demonstrates humility

31:15

And so there's the place for law and gospel There's the place for the hammer and the hand

31:22

The hammer of the word And the extending of grace And I think both of those are very important I met

31:32

Paul Washer just a week ago And he is very humble and very friendly Did you tell him his message changed your life?

31:42

Yeah, he knows I've been I'm still supported by Hard Cry Missionary Society So I've known

31:50

Paul Washer for quite a few years now I think I met him three times now The first time now that I actually visited

31:57

Hard Cry And visited him in America And two other times we met in Frankfurt But I've met him a few times

32:06

And talked to him some more times So he is a humble man

32:12

He would even ask me questions about theology He is really humble

32:18

He doesn't think he has everything figured out And so what you said

32:26

First of all, that also sometimes happened Especially maybe

32:33

It doesn't happen too much anymore But people would come to me and say You are acting when you are preaching

32:43

Because when we talk to you Just here, we talk to you just normally You speak differently than on the pulpit

32:51

In the pulpit and when you preach I think, yes, of course I do Because in the pulpit

32:56

I'm acting really as a herald So I'm speaking words of God That is a holy task

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I'm fulfilling there And of course I will talk differently Than when we just meet and talk

33:12

This is something holy I'm doing there And something very sincere

33:18

Something that needs to be done with dignity So of course

33:26

I'm a different person In the pulpit than when I'm just talking to you And then also what you said

33:34

I would also say that's very true When I began my ministry

33:39

Began preaching I always used the word as a hammer

33:45

And then at some point I realized Wait a minute You're talking, you're preaching to your church

33:53

Those are actually Saved sheep of Christ So you don't have to preach every time

34:02

As though they were not saved But you should acknowledge They are actually believers

34:10

You don't always have to bring the sword and the hammer You can always be graceful

34:15

That's something I had to learn And I hope I did But there's still room to address things

34:23

In a very clear way You mentioned in your message

34:32

About some of the ways That we are seeing

34:37

A more secularized manhood Being pushed within the church

34:43

You talked a little bit about The idea of the big muscle guys

34:49

And how you and I We're both larger men

34:55

We are very muscular But you just mentioned

35:01

How there is a difference When we talk about Christ's manliness

35:07

And what some people want to attribute to manliness I do want to make this statement

35:14

In case somebody says something in the comments I'm all for exercise I teach karate I do believe in certain benefits of physical activity

35:23

I do know that I have weight that I need to lose But I don't dismiss the importance of exercise

35:30

And good eating and good health And I know my family needs me to stay healthy Because they need me to be able to protect them

35:36

So in case somebody wants to jump in the comments I really do understand the value of that And I do want to be more healthy

35:48

But I do agree with you Hearing your message That some of that has become

35:56

A replacement for the holy masculinity That you're seeing in Christ Versus some kind of rugged masculinity

36:05

Of physical nature We are talking

36:10

Those two fat guys that are against exercising That's not what it was As you said

36:19

There is some value to that My problem is

36:26

And that's why I addressed it If you believe that Biblical godly manliness

36:33

Comes from eating meat So your testosterone levels would rise

36:40

And exercising So you get some muscles and some strength

36:45

And actually Your self -esteem comes from your strength

36:52

Physical strength That's not what the Bible teaches It's good to be a physical strong man

36:59

I'm not against that But that's not how you become a godly man The Bible actually

37:08

Tells us everything we need to know To live in a godly manner And it doesn't say that Jesus was lifting weights

37:16

And only eating meat for his testosterone levels But what we read is that Real manliness is a mindset

37:28

It's what's in your spirit Not in your muscles God doesn't take delight in the strength of a man

37:36

It says somewhere Maybe in Proverbs But he loves a man

37:45

That fears God So the fear of God is actually Where manliness begins

37:52

It's the beginning of all wisdom Also of the knowledge how to be a godly man

37:57

And being a godly man means To be determined To be resolute

38:06

To be strong in your mind To be willing to go to war

38:15

Especially with your words To speak strong words

38:21

Hard words Not to be afraid of opposition

38:26

Not to be afraid of danger Even if your opponents might want to kill you

38:31

Because of what you do and say Not be afraid of that But really fear God and nothing else

38:38

This is a fearful manliness A fearless manliness

38:45

Fearful of God but fearless of men The consequences men could bring unto you

38:51

I think that's what it's really about And that's what the Bible shows us That's what Jesus shows us

38:57

It's not his physical strength It's his fearlessness even in the face of death

39:03

And this determination to do and say What must be done and said No matter what the consequences

39:09

No matter who will be offended, who will hate you And who will eventually kill you That's true manliness

39:20

That's the idea of being afraid Of nothing but God And letting that be the driving force of your life

39:28

That's very important And it's also very hard Because I know

39:37

Just as a man in my own weakness I know some of the fears that I struggle with And I'm willing to be

39:45

It's just you and me talking There's not a thousand people listening It's just you and me

39:54

And a thousand of our closest friends But I have certain things

40:01

That I have to struggle with Fears that I struggle with And I joke about some of them in my comedy act

40:07

I talk about some of the phobias I have I'm claustrophobic and all these things But I mean other more legitimate things

40:13

Like I fear for my children Because as I see the government

40:18

And things that are happening in the world And I fear that one day there may come a time

40:24

Where the government says If you say this we're going to take your children away If you say this we're going to separate you from your family

40:33

And that's a fear that men Have to be able to face

40:39

And say yes this may very well cost me Everything And am

40:45

I willing to continue to say And do the things that God has called me to say and do

40:51

Even if this means Everything is at stake

40:58

And that's what a man Has to decide That's what a man has to face

41:04

I was someone who was really afraid

41:09

I was afraid of many things And I wasn't very brave But then

41:16

COVID happened And I was even more afraid We always met

41:23

We never stopped meeting Even though it was forbidden in Germany to have church We still did

41:28

But I was afraid What if someone calls the police on us What will happen But then

41:36

I heard that in Canada Pastor James Coates went to jail

41:41

For having church services And something changed in me when

41:47

I heard that I somehow knew They are really waging war on my brothers and sisters

41:54

They are waging war on the Christians If there is a war I have to fight

41:59

Somehow it really changed And I became brave And I think by God's grace

42:07

I'm continuing in growing To be brave It was really the realization

42:17

That there is no other option I don't have the option to cower away

42:23

They got my brothers in Canada They can also get me It's no use cowering, it's no use hiding

42:30

You actually have to fight This really changed a lot I was reminded of Luther Who I believe was an extraordinarily brave man

42:43

And when you sing his famous hymn Especially the last verse

42:50

Many churches in Germany won't sing the last verse You cannot really sing that Let good and kindred go

43:00

In Germany it actually says If they take your wife away And take your children away

43:07

And even take your freedom and your life Why would you even think about that You have the kingdom

43:16

They cannot take the kingdom away from you And this is something which is really

43:22

When it comes to your wife, when it comes to your children Then it gets really hard But I think we have to be fearless Even when it comes to our wives and children

43:33

I think there comes the time When it is the brave and manly thing

43:39

To take your wife and children and flee I don't think you have to wait

43:44

Until the state actually comes and takes your children Away from you So manliness doesn't mean

43:51

I will always fight and always be here But it can also mean to flee You have responsibility as a man

43:57

You have responsibility for your wife and children And maybe there comes a time when you have to take them and flee

44:03

We see that in the Bible as well Joseph took Mary and Jesus and fled to Egypt And there are many more examples

44:13

So fleeing is an option Even Jesus in the

44:18

Olivet Discourse When you see the enemy surrounding Go and flee to the mountains Fleeing doesn't have a connotation of weakness

44:28

It has a connotation of wisdom When you see the enemy coming But before you flee you should have at least tried to fight

44:36

To act like a man and actually fight For what's good and right That's what

44:43

I think is lacking most In the church today And in Germany even more than in America You have some militant churches

44:51

That's actually what we are supposed to be, the church militant But we are not, most churches are not fighting anything

44:58

And I think it has become so clear That we really are in a war

45:04

It shouldn't come as a surprise because the Bible tells us so But it still comes as a surprise

45:10

I think many of us thought We are somewhere in a neutral position The state is somehow neutral towards Christians So Covid and also transgenderism

45:23

I think this proves it very clearly now Joe Biden choosing

45:29

Easter Sunday As the day of transgender visibility It has become so clear that this is a war

45:36

Against Christians and against Christianity And we should finally wake up The church needs to wake up and fight

45:44

Because I am convinced that we can win Because Christ said I will be with you Till the end of this age

45:52

I will be with you with all authority in heaven and on earth So I believe when the church of Christ Actually wakes up and gets up and starts fighting

46:02

Christ will be fighting with us We are his body So he will be with us in this fight

46:08

And I think we can be victorious And the problem that we are losing I believe is that the church did not fight for decades

46:17

And we finally have to learn to be men again And to fight like men again And who knows, maybe

46:24

Christ will give us victory I believe that's possible I don't want to go too much into eschatology

46:33

I know you and I may have a few differences You know I wear a crown that says king of the amillennialists

46:38

You can be the prince of the postmillennialists today I will bequeath it upon you But I think you and I would agree on many things

46:49

Even if we have maybe a different expectation Within the millennium I think you and I would both agree

46:56

That the church's responsibility is to preach the truth No matter the cost That it is to move forward

47:02

And we do believe that the gospel is going to be victorious

47:08

In whatever way God sees fit for that to happen We believe in a victorious gospel

47:13

We believe in a seed that becomes a giant tree This is the gospel, this is what's going to happen

47:20

And so there's a blessing in that There is unity among us

47:26

Even in maybe our slightly nuanced differences There's unity in that we proclaim the truth

47:32

And we expect that God is in the midst of that Working out His plan

47:38

And so I'm blessed And that's where I've had

47:44

I've had some Negative response to my relationship

47:50

With the CREC Our church isn't CREC We're not a part of that But we do have a good relationship

47:58

I've spoken at CREC churches I've visited Fight Left Feast That was very welcomed

48:04

Many of the guys there, Chocolate Knox And all the guys from the

48:09

CrossPolitik Were all very nice to me and very welcoming And Doug Wilson was very nice Even though he knows

48:17

I make fun of him He's been on the show with me before And I'm thankful for a lot of the things that they're doing

48:27

Even though I disagree And I've had emails, don't you know about this, don't you know about that And I do,

48:33

I know about the things I disagree with And I'm not endorsing the things I disagree with But I am endorsing the things that I think are good

48:39

And I do think the desire to fight for the truth

48:46

Has been a good positive thing That they have demonstrated Would you agree that that's You're the

48:52

German Doug Wilson You can speak with some authority on this Do you think that the

48:58

Because the Moscow mood has been derided as bad Do you think that Do you think it's because they truly are bad

49:08

Or because it's being portrayed as too manly or too rugged Or too whatever I believe there is

49:18

I'm not sure if James White coined that phrase But he used it

49:23

A Doug Wilson derangement syndrome You know If you talk about John MacArthur Or anyone else,

49:34

I probably have disagreements With most other pastors and preachers But I normally

49:42

Don't start a conversation about them By saying, you know, there are really a lot of things

49:48

I don't agree with, but there's something good But everyone does that with Doug Wilson It's like you are obliged to say

49:56

Just to make this clear I think there are some things that are problematic

50:02

And I don't even want to do that Are there things I disagree with? Yes So with John MacArthur and probably almost everyone else

50:12

So I have profited a lot from Doug And from his teaching

50:19

And from the Moscow mood So I'm very grateful to Kevin de Young For coining this phrase, the

50:27

Moscow mood I think that's a great term We should continue to use that, but in a positive way

50:34

So I am trying to build here in Germany A Frankfurt mood

50:39

I'm trying to have something like that Like they have in Moscow I believe it is great to see this holistic approach

50:48

This approach that Christ really Should not just be in our hearts

50:54

Or in our church service on Sunday But should actually be in all of our lives

51:00

And I love that they are not just building a church Which is very important to build the church

51:07

And they are doing that, but they are doing more They are building schools and colleges And they are building a

51:13

Christian society And I think that's a great thing I think that's what the

51:19

Moscow mood is about And they do so, well, in a good sense

51:25

With pride So they are not apologetic about what they are doing They are proud of what they are doing

51:32

And it's a good pride, it's not a sinful pride It's something you can be proud of And I love this,

51:39

I love this really positive And manly way they go about everything

51:45

And they are not Lincoln Duncan said they were just lapping

51:51

And if you get them in a room You have them in a fetal position in three seconds I don't know anyone who is less lapping

52:00

Than the brothers from Moscow They are really building something They also got arrested for singing songs during COVID So I believe they have superior theology

52:11

In many things I agree with some things, of course But I believe they have good theology

52:17

And they are putting that into action And I believe that's exactly the

52:24

Christianity we need That's the Christianity Big Eva and maybe some others are afraid of Because this really requires you to be manly

52:32

And to be brave And to risk actually something But that is a

52:38

Christianity that really changes Not just hearts, but actually changes the world

52:43

It changes Moscow And I love this kind of Christianity It is powerful and joyful Yeah And again, like you said

52:57

Everybody has things they disagree with With different pastors And yet it feels like with Wilson There has to be the preemptive

53:06

Well, I don't agree with this or I don't agree with that But what do we agree on? Do we agree on the gospel?

53:13

Do we agree on these things? And are we able to stand together in this fight?

53:18

Or do we have to have yet another enemy that we can't stand with? I will say this

53:24

I do believe Well, this is kind of going off topic a little

53:31

I actually am one of the weird people who believes Denominations are good I believe there is value in having a little variety in Christianity Because there are convictions that you might have that I might not have

53:42

Are we both Baptist? I forgot that I am 69 Oh yeah, you said that So we are both

53:51

Baptist But I understand where my paedo -baptist brethren differ

53:57

I understand why they differ I disagree, I am willing to debate the disagreement But I am not willing to kick them out of the kingdom over that disagreement

54:05

I am not willing to say they are not brothers And yet we can have these differing convictions within our denominations

54:12

And yet still be brothers And obviously there are

54:17

Those who are outside of the kingdom The Mormons are outside of the kingdom I almost said

54:22

Methodists But I meant to say They are on the line And there are

54:32

Obviously within each denomination there is that liberal Godless God -denying side

54:39

The Methodists of course And even within the

54:45

Baptists There are Baptists who are godless And it is sad But I only say all this to say

54:53

I am glad there is some uniqueness To what is going on in Moscow I am glad they are showing a different way

55:03

That may not be exactly what I would do That may not have some of the things I would do

55:08

But I am thankful to say There are things I learned When I went to preach At the

55:15

CREC church in Pensacola I did the thing on Christians and comedy

55:21

I don't know if you saw that It was my presentation They asked me to come talk about that They said would you come talk about comedy in the

55:29

Christian life And the value of it So I did for 45 minutes I spoke on it I essentially preached the passage

55:38

That says a merry heart does good like a medicine But a broken spirit dries the bones

55:43

I basically preached that as a message And I left there feeling very encouraged

55:50

Because it was a men's meeting It was on a Friday night They had 80 men that came to this meeting

55:57

They sat and ate and fellowshiped for an hour And then they listened to me talk for 45 minutes

56:02

And then we went for another 30 minutes of questions and answers And then we sat around and fellowshiped even longer

56:08

And the feeling of good masculinity In that group

56:14

And this is tying back to what we are talking about The feeling of The men were being men among men

56:22

And they were feeling that manliness among them And they were talking about theology

56:28

And they were talking about Christ They were talking about the Bible Some of them were even debating little nuances of different things

56:35

But they were men being men for Christ And I think that's a good thing

56:42

I think that's a beautiful thing I think we can learn a lot from the Moscow mood Whatever that means

56:49

There's a lot we can learn from them And even where we disagree I even see that often as something positive

56:58

Because that's really iron sharpening iron For example, take baptism

57:04

If you only got those weak arguments But if you got the good arguments

57:09

From Doug Wilson or even from R .C. Sproul So people who really give you good arguments

57:15

That is iron sharpening iron That's really where you have to think things through And for me,

57:23

I just came to a stronger I'm stronger convinced now

57:28

That my baptism position is correct But even that I'm even grateful that they have this position

57:37

So they challenge me To think things through And not just accept them without really knowing

57:45

What I'm accepting and what the counter arguments would be Absolutely And what you just said is so true

57:53

And this going back to James White I'm thankful that I've heard him debate men

57:58

That gave good arguments for their side Rather than just the low hanging fruit

58:03

There are goofballs in every group That can be just knocked off with a simple argument

58:10

But James has gone against the highest guys In Roman Catholicism He's gone against the smartest guys in Presbyterianism He's gone against the best

58:19

And he's been an example to us of a man Speaking as a man

58:24

And some people don't like him And some people say he's too harsh And I want to say this publicly

58:30

And I hope he hears this I know he's busy But I have experienced some of the most precious

58:40

Moments of James White Being fatherly to me

58:46

And in a way that has been very precious And I joke about our hamburger

58:52

The first time we ever met I watched him eat a hamburger And there's some funny history between he and I But just talking to him

59:03

Without the cameras on Just talking to him about being a dad Or being The relationship that he has

59:13

His granddaughter Was born right around the same time as my daughter

59:19

Hope And so it's an interesting connection point there And people only see

59:25

The debater People only see the preacher People only see what he's like But he is a man who loves his family

59:35

He loves his church He loves God's people And I'm thankful to have gotten to see that Because that's the full man

59:43

Not just the belligerent man But it's the godly man

59:49

And I also met him when I was at Apologia Actually he took us out

59:55

For even breakfast Or at least dinner Several times

01:00:02

So I think three times or so And he showed us

01:00:07

His old house where he grew up He showed us the tree That's a story

01:00:13

I can't tell He showed us the tree Under which he proposed to his wife

01:00:21

Again, similar like we said with Paul Washer James White is such a humble

01:00:28

And friendly man And I count him as one of my best friends And as you said, he is fatherly

01:00:36

He is humble, he is friendly He can take you out to some restaurant

01:00:41

That is not fancy at all It's just some normal restaurant Some of the big guys

01:00:51

I think have those They think they need certain

01:00:57

Certain restaurants, certain quality And so on and so forth So James White is nothing like that He is so humble, he is just a normal guy

01:01:07

A normal brother My co -pastor and I He had us on his dividing line

01:01:14

And he made it really all about us He just wanted us to speak And people to get to know us

01:01:21

If there is someone who is really humble Then it's

01:01:26

James White He has achieved so much He has helped so many brothers and sisters He has stayed such a humble man

01:01:38

Amen This might be a good place to wrap this conversation up When we talk about being

01:01:46

Christ belligerent manliness That doesn't mean that we are saying unhumble That doesn't mean that we are saying prideful or arrogant

01:01:54

We are saying that there is a time to stand and fight And behind that willingness to fight

01:02:01

Is the humility to know that we are fighting God's battle With God's instruments and God's strength

01:02:07

And that I think is really the key To what it means to be

01:02:13

God's man The humbleness needs to be towards God So why am

01:02:21

I fighting? Am I fighting because I am proud? No, it's because like Jesus The zeal for the house of the

01:02:31

Lord That's what should drive us The zeal and love for God So I don't think we have to be humble

01:02:40

To hypocrites And God haters We should stand our man

01:02:50

Stand your man Be a man And fight those

01:02:56

So you don't have to be humble towards them when you are fighting You are not fighting humbly

01:03:02

You are fighting manly and strongly But you are always humble towards God You are fighting because you are a servant

01:03:11

A slave of God And you have zeal and love for Him And you are fighting for Him Because it's about His glory and His honor

01:03:21

And not yours That's the humbleness that we have to display Well Tobias, I want to thank you for coming on the show

01:03:31

And for being a wonderful preacher of the gospel And one who

01:03:37

I am thankful to now get to call friend And hopefully be able to have more conversations in the future

01:03:43

I want to ask you to do one thing for me You preach every sermon that you preach in Germany in German, correct?

01:03:50

Yes So obviously that's your native language And English is your second language

01:03:56

Or I guess maybe third, I don't know, how many languages do you speak? Well, there's a little bit of French And I know

01:04:06

Latin But that's normally not a language you speak a lot Gotcha Well if you would, and this is kind of weird

01:04:13

Maybe you can, maybe you can't Can you say, be sure to listen to your

01:04:20

Calvinist podcast Every week in German Can you say that in German? Is that hard to translate?

01:04:27

No, I think I can find a way to say it Check out the

01:04:32

Calvinist podcast Every week Alright Well maybe if a

01:04:41

German person hears this That will encourage them to listen So thank you Tobias for being on the show today

01:04:47

I truly appreciate you being a part of this Thank you so much for having me brother, God bless And again

01:04:57

I want to thank you all for being a part of the show today I hope that my voice didn't take too much away from it I'm still fighting laryngitis

01:05:03

And I appreciate everyone's prayers for that Thank you again for being a part of the show Remember that we are supported by the

01:05:11

Sovereign Grace Family Church here in Jacksonville So if you are in the Jacksonville area Come visit us at Sovereign Grace Family Church Thank you for listening to your