October 22, 2015 Show with Dr. Nelson Kloosterman on “Medical Ethics & Abraham Kuyper’s Contributions to the Church”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris.

Arntzen. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 22nd day of October 2015 and I'm very delighted to have my old friend Dr. Nelson D. Klosterman back on the program.

He is one of my favorite guests and for more than 30 years Dr. Nelson D. Klosterman has taught courses on the graduate level internationally in ethics and several other theological disciplines. In addition to writing numerous articles for academic journals and magazines, he has translated and published a number of books and essays from Dutch and Afrikaans to English in various theological disciplines.

Nelson serves as the executive director and as ethics consultant for Worldview Resources International, a service organization whose mission is to produce and provide resources designed to assist in understanding and applying a religious worldview to responsible living in a global culture.

Areas of interest include medical ethics, which is one of our subjects today, beginning of life and end of life decisions, business ethics, environmental ethics, ethics of animal food production, technology ethics, and the relationship between religion and culture in general.

And the website for Worldview Resources International is worldviewresourcesinternational .com. That's an easy one to remember, worldviewresourcesinternational .com. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Nelson D. Klosterman.

Thank you, Chris. I'm glad to be with you this afternoon. Yes, it's great to have you back, and as I announced, our first subject at hand is going to be medical ethics, and our second hour is going to be on Abraham Kuyper and his contributions to the Christian Church.

If you have any questions of your own for Dr. Klosterman, feel free to email us at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. That's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. First of all, tell us a little bit more about some of what you do with the organization that we just mentioned for you, Worldview Resources International.

Well, Chris, back at the end of 2010, I made a career change serving inside America. I left teaching on the seminary level, where I'd been teaching for more than 26 years, and began this organization.

I'm a one-person or translation, but I'm able as well to branch out both in speaking and in writing, as well as in consulting.

Medical Ethics and the Limits of Technology

Yeah, a lot of that involves the rubber meeting the road, if you will, when it comes to the most controversial and tough decisions in our lives as Christians, especially in the modern world. Right, yeah, that's for sure.

And, well, first of all, under the umbrella of this medical ethics topic that we're beginning our two-hour interview with, let's start with one that Christians may be at a loss when they are asked if this is under the guidelines of appropriate behavior or participation from Christians in vitro fertilization.

There are a lot of married couples who desperately want to have children, and they cannot for some reason. So they very often, just like non-Christians do, begin investigating and even participating in in vitro fertilization.

If you could give our listeners a more detailed definition of what in vitro fertilization is, and what is your view in regard to a Christian's participation in it?

Well, before we approach... Yeah, that's fine. Okay, questionable assumption. Here's an assumption that if it's legal, as the years go on, it's clear in the US that something is permitted by law. One of the obvious ones is abortion on demand.

It's legal, but it's not moral. So I'll just mention that and leave it at that, and we might come back to that in connection. The second question, we may do something. Technologically, we can do things in the area of clones.

And many people, we can do it. It's very clear that that does not yet mean we... These can apply in a variety of end-of-life decisions. When, for example, we have older people who have been chronically ill, and who move from one disease to another disease, and oftentimes people believe that, well, if we can keep grandma alive, we must by any and every...

I think that's a questionable assumption. Not because we... Because there comes a point in time when we really need to accept the reality of the knowledge on medical technology that enables a body to continue functioning without a person really functioning.

Well, that's oftentimes in this area of medical ethics. Are we playing God... Very good. ...of that assumption, okay? Very good. Excellent. All right. Now, as we move ahead into the question of... One of the things you asked of me is a definition.

Well, let me give you a definition by way of outlining a process. In vitro fertilization... ...specific medical process... ...removing... ...agically... ...a number of eggs...

...really means it... ...gladly one or more embryos... And would this be an option, in your opinion, for Christians who wish to be biblically faithful?

Well, that's, of course, the most important question and a very good one. And what I'm going to identify now would be a number of conditions. I think the answer to your question is a straight yes. That's okay.

Under no circumstances may it be used. I don't think it's either one or the other. Here are some necessary conditions. See, this requires moral reflection and consultation. First of all, I think it's imperative that... ...of marriage.

Unfortunately, it's not. ...always used in the context of marriage. As you can imagine, given the technology that's available... ...and given the ability to freeze embryos and then use them... ...outside the context of... ...and if we're talking here, as we are, about a technology... ...the marriage... ...reproductive... ...see that the embryo transfer presents, for some people, six embryos that are... ...as to how many will be fertilized.

And by the way, the technology is there. It's not that you just, you know, pull a bunch of eggs and a bunch of sperm together... ...and let's see how many come out of this. No. It's very, very technical.

One, two, three, or... ...position of being... ...recognizing that human life begins at conception. The difference is that conception here is occurring... ...outside the...

...around for any kind of... Now, let me ask you about some of those conditions... ...or at least a couple of them. Some might argue... Now, wait a minute here. You said that only... ...one of the spouses... ...in a married couple... ...may have any contribution to... ...the in vitro fertilization process.

How do you...

No, no, no, no. No, no, no. I mean, I suggested that the genetic material...

That's what I meant. I'm sorry. Okay. And so you have... ...if a husband is sterile, for instance... ...you would say that there is no way... ...that they should naturally conceive a child... ...and adoption would be the only answer then?

Yes, you're right.

Go ahead. I'm sorry. Well, that means then that... ...artificial insemination by donor... ...and though it's not... ...what we would understand... ...some would... ...by the way... ...that a child born... ...insemination by donor... ...belongs differently... ...to the child's mother... ...this woman has no genetic investment... ...or genetic claim...

So, how would you respond to somebody... ...that would be saying... ...that since there is no... ...adultery occurring here... ...there is no... ...sexual sin involved... ...isn't it just your... ...personal... ...revulsion against... ...a third party... ...participating in this... ...through artificial insemination... ...et cetera... ...isn't it just your... ...personal view... ...rather than anything... ...that we can be... ...biblically informed about... ...because that kind of a thing... ...didn't exist... ...when the biblical... ...writers were alive?

Well... ...I understand that question...

...and I agree... ...such a thing didn't exist... ...when a biblical writer... ...if I could ask you... ...and your listeners... ...to imagine... ...if they close their eyes... ...and imagine... ...and... ...I would call the husband... ...on the left point of the triangle... ...and the wife... ...on the upper right corner... ...the wife becomes... ...mother of the child... ...and... ...nobody sees him... ...perhaps nobody knows him... ...I mean it happens in a lab... ...and... ...now we're talking... ...the result of that process... ...lifelong... ...and it's not simply... ...confined to a lab... ...or 12 relationships... ...and therein lies my objections.

Now the... ...the biblical account... ...of... ...Abraham and Sarah... ...with... ...the concubine Hagar...

...we know that... ...there was sin involved... ...because... ...Abraham actually had sex... ...with Hagar... ...and... ...we know that there was sin involved... ...because there was a lack... ...of trust... ...in what God had promised them... ...but... ...other than that... ...do we have a clear... ...biblical... ...notion that... ...the idea of a concubine... ...in and of itself... ...is sinful... ...and wrong?

Well... ...that's the broader... ...question... ...exclusivity of men... ...because... ...in addition to your question...

...the so-called... ...lover at long... ...though not uncommon... ...David had concubines... ...by the time we come... ...to the New Testament... ...we recognize... ...that all of this... ...permission... ...for the sake... ...in coming Christ... ...without being... ...think of Tamar... ...Tamar... ...who was... ...a daughter-in-law of Judah... ...who was a mother of Christ... ...according to the flesh... ...other women... ...I think... And... ...I don't know if you have... ...anything else to say... ...about the reproductive... ...issues... ...underneath... ...the umbrella of... ...medical ethics... ...but... ...I'll move on to another...

No, no, I would... ...I would like to... ...because I think... ...may I talk for a moment... ...about... ...Christian family planning... ...that... Oh, yeah, excellent... ...excellent... ...I'm sorry... ...I forgot to... ...yeah... Yeah, no... ...I... ...the reason I... ...like to talk about this... ...with your listeners... ...is because... ...many Christians... ...seem to be... ...as I would like to say... ...paddling their own canoe... ...in this area... ...that is... ...they're not... ...they're not certain that... ...what they're about to embark upon... ...and when I do... ...when I do pastoral counseling... ...in terms of premarital counseling... ...language given to us by... ...it is not... ...it is negative... ...birth control is a... ...the Bible tells us in Psalm 127... ...three... ...they're not... ...they're not a surprise... ...they're not an act... ...planning... ...is in my judgment... ...and then why... ...with the number of children... ...that are in context... ...it doesn't belong on the pulpit... ...young couples intend... ...how many children do you plan to have... ...and... ...oftentimes... ...they look at... ...they wish... ...convinced... ...the Bible does not say... ...the Bible... ...the Bible does not say... ...I don't believe that... That's interesting. ...I don't believe the Bible says that... ...situations that come into play in a family... ...a father and mother to care for children... ...the psychological...

...deliberation... ...by the same token... ...I want to expose motives... ...that may be... ...so... Let me just... ...jump in there right... ...because it's a very important issue... ...because I know... ...that there are disagreements... ...even amongst Christians... ...within... ...my fellowship of Reformed Baptists... ...in regard to contraception... ...there are... ...there are some that... ...believe that is permissible... ...as long as you're not doing anything... ...that would end the life... ...of a fertilized egg... ...but... ...the... ...the issue of... ...whether or not... ...contraception is acceptable... ...some... ...say that you are playing God... ...when you're doing that... ...and they... ...some would say that it is... ...the duty... ...of those who are... ...healthy and fertile... ...married... ...men and women... ...to be fruitful and multiply... ...as... ...God commanded... ...Adam and Eve... ...and... ...therefore they would say... ...as many children... ...as the Lord brings... ...to them... ...that is what they are accepting... ...now... ...if somebody is convicted... ...of that... ...theologically... ...do you... ...would you still say... ...that they are in sin... ...if they... ...are... ...really on a... ...poverty level income... ...or no income at all... ...and they've got... ...ten children... ...and they keep... ...reproducing... ...having children... ...what is your opinion on that?

Well I... ...I wouldn't... ...suggest that... ...be counseled... ...with respect to...

...stewardship... ...now stewardship involves... ...not just the stewardship... ...of one's body... ...and thus... ...I do think... ...the mother's health... ...and well-being... ...are important considerations... ...but it also involves... ...stewardship of relationships... ...in a family... ...whenever a new child... ...comes into a family... ...the... ...new relationships... ...that arise because of... ...that child's birth... ...are geometrically expanded... ...so if you have... ...four children... ...and another child... ...enters the family... ...that child is related... ...not only to mom and dad... ...but each of the preceding... ...four children... ...and those relationships... ...need to be cultivated... ...they need to be discipled... ...mentored... ...and so on... ...stewardship involves... ...who is father and mother... ...able to devote time... ...to the discipling... ...and mentoring... ...and rearing of your children... ...or... ...or... ...a whole line of children... ...statement... ...but... ...but by the way... ...I ordered... ...I have known... ...well-ordered... ...godly families... ...with nine children... ...but what other judgment... ...or opinion... ...can one come to... ...when one sees... ...the notion of saying to others... ...and to yourselves... ...well we're going to have as many...

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Vaccines, Public Health, and Christian Conscience

Welcome back, this is Chris Arns... ...and if you just tuned us in... ...we have had for the last half hour... ...and will continue for the next 90 minutes... ...as our guest, Dr. Nelson D. Klosterman... ...who is the Executive Director... ...and Ethics Consultant... ...for Worldview Resources International... ...whose website is... ...worldviewresourcesinternational .com... ...for the first hour... ...we are discussing... ...Medical Ethics and the Christian... ...the second hour... ...we are going to be discussing... ...Abraham Kuyper and his contributions... ...to the Christian Church... ...if you'd like to join us on the air... ...with a question... ...for any of those topics... ...our email address is... ...chrisarnsen at gmail dot com... ...chrisarnsen at gmail dot com... ...that's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N... ...at gmail dot com... ...and please include at least your first name... ...your city and state... ...and your country of residence... ...if you live outside of the USA... ...that's chrisarnsen at gmail dot com... ...and Dr. Klosterman... ...we were talking right before the break... ...about reproduction... ...amongst married couples... ...is there any form of contraception... ...that you believe is a violation... ...of Orthodox Biblical Ethics... ...that does not jeopardize the life... ...of an unborn child?

Yes, I think that there are... ...permissible forms of contraception... ...and there are impermissible forms... ...but we need, again... ...to be clear on terminology... ...defining them is... ...there are many things called... ...contracept... ...an example... ...uh... ...genuine contracept... ...however... ...the implantation... ...of a fertilized egg... ...and a lot of young... ...wives, I'm afraid, are not... ...and uh... ...as far as... ...the... ...all the other... ...known... ...uh... ...contraceptive means... ...uh... ...you believe that they're acceptable... ...unless they do... ...uh... ...prevent... ...or damage the life... ...of an unborn child, then?

Right... ...yeah, and there are far more negative... ...uh... ...instruments than there are... ...the IUD... ...is uh... ...is an abortifacient... ...progestin... ...morning after pill... ...uh... ...RU486... ...and uh... ...uh... ...a number of...

Now... ...uh... ...what would you say... ...about... ...the Roman Catholic understanding... ...which prohibits... ...all artificial means... ...of contraception... ...uh... ...and... ...per... ...I don't know how studied you are...

...on exactly what... ...they mean... ...by their prohibition... ...of contraception... ...but if you could... ...comment on that? Well... ...of theology... ...my reading suggests... ...moral theologians... ...natural methods... ...because they believe... ...there are many Christians... ...by the way... ...perhaps among your listenership... ...who... ...as well... ...who believe... ...sexual... ...I believe the Bible teaches that... ...I believe the Bible... ...in the bounds of marriage... I do have... ...a... ...anonymous listener... ...in Cumberland County... ...Pennsylvania... ...who... ...asks... ...you mentioned... ...earlier... ...that marriage... ...is designed... ...with the purpose... ...of procreation... ...would you... ...as a minister... ...marry a couple... ...when... ...beforehand... ...one of them... ...is known... ...to be sterile... ...or... ...impotent... ...et cetera... ...perhaps... ...one is even... ...in a wheelchair... ...quadriplegic... ...due to an accident... ...or... ...illness... ...would you marry... ...such a couple... ...that is in love... ...and... ...is devoted to each other... ...and wants to live... ...with one another... ...as husband and wife... ...for the rest of their lives?

Presuming they're Christians, yes. Yes. I'm assuming. They didn't say that, but... Yeah. Well, my answer would be yes. I would marry them. I believe that... ...disqualification... ...it's a limitation... ...on the... ...however... ...I hasten to add... ...that there are... ...other limitations... ...on... ...unlike... ...the... ...say... ...physical... ...creational design... ...to answer the questioner's... ...query... ...I would say... ...I would... ...yes... ...I would marry such people... ...to have children... ...to pursue...

You mentioned... ...as our listener... ...brought up... ...that you believe that... ...procreation is... ...the main design... ...for marriage... ...but... ...doesn't Paul... ...indicate that... ...appropriately... ...using marriage... ...as a... ...as a release... ...for one's sexual drive... ...as a... ...as a... ...motivation... ...uh... ...if somebody... ...believes that they cannot... ...control themselves... ...and they're in love with the... ...uh... ...a person... ...that they should... ...marry them... ...in order to keep their... ...sexuality pure?

Well, I believe that... ...the... ...legitimate... ...that we do not want... ...to define that... ...as a... ...primary motive... ...for marriage... ...my sexual appetite... ...I think that... ...his... ...motive... ...as a... ...central motive... ...for getting... ...reason that I'm marrying... ...because I can't control... ...so... ...okay, so... ...so... ...I would counsel... ...and try to... ...as a church community... ...also... ...bless... ...it's a little bit different... ...and I want to let... ...our anonymous listener know... ...that if you... ...email me... ...your mailing address... ...I assure you... ...I will not violate... ...your desire to be anonymous... ...but if you... ...email me... ...your mailing address... ...you're going to receive... ...a free copy... ...of... ...Wisdom and Wonder... ...Common Grace... ...in Science... ...and Art... ...by Abraham Kuyper... ...which was translated... ...from Dutch... ...into English... ...by our guest today... ...Dr. Nelson Klosterman...

...so if you give us... ...your... ...mailing address... ...we will... ...shoot you off a copy... ...of that book... ...free of charge... ...compliments of the publishers... ...Christian's... ...Library Press... ...who were kind enough... ...to... ...provide... ...these free copies... ...for our listeners... ...who send in questions... ...have you... ...basically... ...touched... ...all the main points... ...that you wanted to... ...on this... ...subheading... ...of our discussion... ...the procreation aspect?

Yes I have... ...yes I have... ...thank you Chris... ...for obliging me on that. No that's a very... ...it was... ...probably the most important... ...and relative... ...of the... ...subheadings... ...that we... ...we could address... ...obviously... ...we do have a listener... ...Dan... ...in Idaho City... ...Idaho... ...who says... ...hello... ...I just discovered your show... ...I love it... ...my name is Dan... ...I'm from Idaho City... ...Idaho... ...I'm a Reformed Christian... ...attending... ...The Well... ...in Boise, Idaho... ...and... ...his question... ...for you... ...Dr. Klosterman... ...is... ...with all... ...of the horror... ...surrounding vaccines... ...in regard... ...to the presence... ...of toxic metals... ...as well as... ...even material... ...from aborted babies... ...and when we know... ...that vaccines... ...are the direct cause... ...of massive... ...autoimmune deficiencies... ...such as autism... ...the mountains of evidence... ...of which have been... ...issued... ...and otherwise... ...suppressed... ...with prominent... ...whistleblowers... ...being... ...defrocked... ...how can we... ...as Christians... ...allow our children... ...to be dosed... ...with such poison... ...and... ...what is the best way... ...to take vocal... ...public stands... ...against them? Well... ...that is a... ...there's very little... ...wiggle room... ...in that question... ...I... ...I have to say... ...I have read... ...I have discussed... ...over the recent years... ...of vaccination... ...I have... ...families... ...in the nursing profession... ...in the health care profession... ...I have 17... ...grandchildren... ...whom... ...whose lives... ...and well-being... ...I am concerned about... ...so... ...I... ...I'm not... ...I'm not trying to escape... ...of the question... ...but there are a lot... ...of assumptions... ...things like autism... ...and other immune... ...uh... ...diseases are... ...directly caused... ...by vaccinations... ...really do need... ...I would lay down... ...to the Christian Medical Society... ...and there is such an organization... ...as you... ...and your listeners may know... ...I would... ...I would ask... ...the Christian Medical Society... ...if they haven't already... ...and I don't know that they haven't... ...uh... ...study this matter... ...and publish a position paper... ...to help Christians... ...think and work through... ...this issue... ...of vaccinations... ...for the very reasons... ...that your questioner... ...adduces... ...I... ...uh... ...I am not a competent... ...uh... ...researcher... ...or clinician... ...insert this sideways... ...into my comments... ...I am no fan... ...I am no fan... ...of the CDC... ...Centers for Disease... ...do not believe... ...uh... ...everything... ...our government... ...tells us... ...by way of the CDC... ...I think... ...uh... ...we need to be... ...when it comes to these... ...very concerned about...

...law... ...medically informed conscience... ...other hand... ...there's a public health issue... ...here again... ...our libertarian friends... ...may disagree on this... ...uh... ...I believe the government... ...has a responsibility... ...to protect public health... ...and one of those... ...uh... ...do you know anything... ...about his... ...accusation... ...uh... ...the listeners accusation... ...that... ...material from aborted babies... ...is used in... ...I do not know... ...I cannot speak with... ...any kind of intelligence... ...on that question... ...I'd have to research that... ...before I gave a comment... ...okay... ...well... ...uh... ...Dan... ...in Idaho City... ...uh... ...please send us your full... ...mailing address... ...so we can also send you...

...a free copy... ...of Wisdom and Wonder... ...the book by... ...Abraham Kuyper... ...that has been translated... ...by our guest... ...Dr. Nelson... ...Klosterman... ...uh... ...Chris... ...if I may give Dan... ...also a shout out... ...your program... ...yes... ...and I think... ...I think my... ...my friend... ...formed church... ...oh great... ...and... ...uh... ...in fact... ...uh... ...going back to the... ...reproductive... ...question... ...we do have another... ...listener... ...we have Arnie... ...in Perry County... ...who... ...uh... ...says... ...I understand... ...uh... ...that... ...since you are a Christian... ...uh... ...you are pro-life... ...and... ...my question is... ...is there... ...ever... ...legitimate... ...way... ...when the life... ...of a mother... ...is in jeopardy... ...especially when... ...the death... ...of the... ...baby... ...is certain... ...to... ...do anything... ...such as... ...provoke... ...uh... ...premature... ...delivery... ...uh... ...and other methods... ...of... ...ending a pregnancy... ...uh... ...that would not... ...violate... ...the scriptures... ...and would not be... ...an actual murder... ...of a child... ...oh my, oh my... ...this is a... ...uh... ...issue that's being raised... ...and many... ...many people... ...know ethics... ...the best... ...afraid that... ...the so-called... ...health of a mother... ...uh... ...stipulation... ...for permissible abortions... ...is wide enough... ...to let... ...anything... ...now becomes... ...a matter of the mother's... ...illogical... ...a scenario... ...one can... ...imagine... ...a scenario... ...where... ...in utero... ...is certain... ...given medical standards... ...and... ...that the mother's... ...impending... ...or imminent... ...death... ...is also certain... ...uh... ...unless intervention is made... ...and done... ...uh... ...these are tragic... ...believe that... ...the gospel... ...and... ...the blood of Jesus... ...where we must... ...a situation... ...I want to add... ...and hasten to add that... ...we've got to be careful... ...not to expand... ...into a kind of rule... ...into a kind of... ...uh... ...box... ...or category... ...or... ...14 others... ...no longer an exception... ...but it becomes sort of... ...a practice... ...that... ...we shouldn't have that. Okay... ...uh... ...now... ...the other... ...issues...

...that may be found... ...under the umbrella... ...of medical ethics... ...uh... ...I think... ...that... ...the... ...attention... ...that the media has given... ...Bruce Jenner... ...opened up a can of worms... ...for discussion... ...uh... ...the... ...issues come up... ...every time I've heard... ...a Christian in the media... ...opposing... ...what... ...uh... ...Mr. Jenner did... ...uh... ...to his body... ...to alter it... ...to give it a more... ...female appearance... ...uh... ...the issues... ...of hermaphrodites... ...and things... ...like that... ...uh... ...inevitably... ...always come up... ...uh... ...very rare cases... ...medical cases... ...uh... ...are blown up to be... ...the... ...rule of... ...practice for... ...for... ...you know... ...everything else... ...um... ...what... ...what do you do... ...in cases... ...those cases... ...where you do have... ...a child born... ...uh... ...that is a hermaphrodite... ...or... ...uh... ...you know... ...something... ...to that nature... ...where the... ...the gender is... ...is not... ...able to be determined?

That's... ...you know... ...that's a... ...a good question, Chris... ...and I had that question... ...put to me... ...when I gave... ...uh... ...this material... ...at a conference... ...down in Florida... ...at Holy Trinity PCA... ...in Tampa, Florida... ...and... ...uh...

...I had a question put to me... ...from a... ...uh... ...a resident... ...the reality... ...I don't have... ...a Bruce Jenner... ...I think Bruce Jenner's... ...situation is different... ...than... ...the... ...uh... ...child who was born... ...with... ...so let me move over... ...let me move over to talk then... ...about the Bruce Jenner situation... ...um... ...uh... ...here again... ...I... ...I begin with a word of compassion... ...who live... ...it may be in their upbringing... ...it may be in their environment... ...in their... ...in the friendships... ...and relationships... ...they've cultivated throughout the years... ...so I don't want to be insensitive... ...to that... ...however... ...having said that... ...having... ...expressed compassion... ...I... ...I would... ...and that... ...brokenness includes... ...sexual identity... ...and that... ...sexual identity includes... ...psychological... ...and emotional... ...and... ...mental... ...I do think that... ...it's not only... ...confused identities... ...than... ...physical alteration... ...of genitalia... ...and things... ...similar...

...they need to be... ...simply happy... ...or satisfied... ...or content with what... ...you... .and we're going to be going to a break and when we return, I'd like to continue... ...the medical ethics discussion until you've exhausted all the main points that you want to address and then we can... ...pick up on the Abraham Kuiper topic whenever you've completed that... ...and because we can always return to another program on Abraham Kuiper if need be... ...but... ...if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Dr. Klosterman... on right now on the medical ethics issue you can always email us a question about Abraham Kuyper that we could keep on on the side and address that question when that topic arises but our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com that's C-H-R-I-S A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com and please include at least your first name will in fact include your whole mailing address so you can receive one of these free copies of Wisdom and Wonder by Abraham Kuyper which was translated from Dutch into English by our guest Dr. Nelson Klosterman.

Even if you want to remain anonymous if it's a personal or private matter regarding the medical ethics topic we will not obviously reveal your name or identity on the air but we will mail you the book nonetheless that's chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Don't go away we'll be right back with Dr. Nelson D. Klosterman and your questions on medical ethics. Don't go away. Attention coin collectors and investors Long Island Galleries of Wading River, New York has brilliant uncirculated 19th century Morgan silver dollars for only $54 per coin with free shipping and handling for a limited time.

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End-of-Life Decisions, Cremation, and Organ Donation

Welcome back this is Chris Arnz and if you just tuned us in for the last hour we have had as our guest Dr. Nelson Klosterman and we've been discussing medical ethics in the Christian we're going to continue that topic until we've exhausted all the primary issues that Dr. Nelson wanted to address and then we will continue on with our discussion on Abraham Kuyper as we promised initially a great figure from Christian history.

I do also want to announce that tomorrow on Iron Trip and Zyron, God willing, we have a guest for the first time Jenny Reese Clark who is a living testimony of what true faith in Jesus Christ can bring.

As a multiple felon of various drug charges including unlawful manufacturing of methamphetamines, Jenny is no stranger to breaking the rules or suffering their consequences and today thanks be to God and the mercy of his grace she is a born-again believer and a Christian author and the wife of a military chaplain so we're going to be looking forward to hearing more about Jenny Reese Clark about her testimony and about this Christian novel that she has written which is basically patterned after her own life story and we hope you join us tomorrow on Iron Trip and Zyron for that interview if you'd like to join us today with a question for our guest Dr. Nelson Klosterman.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Dr. Klosterman, I'm assuming that you would view all gender dysphoria as it's been labeled as not being a reason for any kind of sexual alteration or any kind of even alteration in dress and appearance than that the only the only situation in that category that is really a genuine benign or neutral problem that doesn't involve sin is that which involves birth defects.

I'm assuming that somebody like Bruce Jenner where there's no physical evidence of anything like that this is just sin pure and simple and perhaps even serious mental.

Illness. Well I think that gender dysphoria I think is what they are calling it. I think that's what.

Bruce Jenner has called it and what his counselors have called it.

What would you suggest in a case like that? I would suggest some very very intensive, compassionate long-term... You're not talking about accommodating though the desire to be.

An opposite gender though? No I'm not. I'm talking about...

I do have an anonymous listener from Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

Who wants to know is it inappropriate or sinful for a Christian man if he is married to use Viagra or anything similar? That's an interesting question because I had a Roman Catholic friend he's now deceased but he at one time...

I'm not saying that he was speaking for the Catholic Church but he said that it was sinful to use anything like that and I remember being perplexed by that because why would it be if the person was married?

I don't even understand why someone would view it that way but what's your thoughts on that?

I have never ever encountered that question before.

I'm perplexed by it. Yeah and as I said I don't want to get my Catholic friends listening upset with me now saying that I'm misrepresenting Catholicism. He just happened to be a Roman Catholic and he was a very serious conservative Catholic but for some reason he found that objectionable and I didn't know why.

What are some of the other subcategories that fall underneath this medical ethics heading that you wanted to address?

Well just to... I'd like to talk a little bit about organ donation and about... I'm here with us with you and I want to say a couple of things about how we use Viagra and I want to recommend to our readers with examples now I've never thought about this.

The Bible is very... and I'll give you an example. Active euthanasia. Active euthanasia perhaps or depression or unwillingness to live and so on. The Bible I think prohibits this. It prohibits this in the sixth commandment which says thou shalt not kill.

On other issues however the Bible functions as a guard and this is the second way we use the Bible. I spoke earlier in the last hour about in vitro fertilization and I will be the first to admit there is no Bible verse about in vitro fertilization.

There are Bible verses about sexuality. There are Bible verses about human life and therefore when we work our way through the process of in vitro fertilization we discover uh oh this has to be within marriage between spouses begun human...

So those are second order considerations that then help us to use in vitro fertilization in a careful way. There the Bible is serving as a guard. Thirdly, the Bible serves as a pump that points out direction and gives us orientation points.

Here I'm thinking of genetic engineering. We don't have time this afternoon to talk about this very much. Genetic engineering is a... it's a wonderful field of study and developing the secrets of one's own body really to combat disease and to perhaps even cure disease.

I have a personal testimony here that the effects of chronic Lyme disease helps to undergo stem cell therapy. Now the Bible doesn't say much about this. So the Bible tells us, look, I don't think we want to cross.