Is the New Apostolic Reformation a Cult with Amy Spreeman

The New Apostolic Reformation as a Global Dominionist Movement

The NAR teaches that after 2 ,000 years or so, God is now restoring the lost offices of apostles and prophets to govern and rule all Christian churches in these end times, giving churches these new marching orders directly from God.

And it's really a global movement, it's not just in the United States, it's a fast-growing dominionist movement of new apostles and prophets who will lead God's end times army in establishing his kingdom on earth by taking authority over earthly and spiritual realms.

Welcome to The Wrap Report with Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications. This is a ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian Podcast Community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

All right, I am having to give a warning. That's right, today's topic is going to be one of those ones that will upset most of you. Well, maybe not most of my listeners, but most of your friends, some of your family, and you're going to have to deal with the fact that, well, we're going to deal with something that is rampant within Christianity and, unfortunately, not enough people are discerning enough to be concerned about it.

Actually, I hope after this episode, you're scared. I hope that you're scared for your friends that are involved in the New Apostolic Reformation, sometimes referred to as NAR. No, not NRA, that's a totally different thing, that's—I'm from Jersey, I don't understand—National Something Association, that middle word, I'm a Jersey—we're not allowed to talk about those things, you know, we're in a communist state of Jersey.

But I have a special guest, and some of you may know her, if not, we're going to have her introduce herself a bit, but it is Amy Spearman, and she's with a whole bunch of organizations that she's involved with now, bringing research, and she has—she actually is a speaker for Answers in Genesis, so she has that.

She has Bible studies for ladies called Naomi's Table, and she also—Amy, if I'm not mistaken, you work for a group that rides the high seas and traveling the high seas to steal Christians' radios, is that it?

Yes, it's—hi, Andrew—it's called Pirate Christian Radio, and—argh! Well, that's what it must be, right?

Exactly! I mean, pirates, they travel the high seas and steal from people, right? Is that—so it must be. You steal Christian radios, that's it?

Well, no, I don't steal.

How did it get to—because that's one thing—someone asked me today when I said I was going to be interviewing you there, how did it get its name Pirate Christian Radio? I said, I don't know, I'll ask Amy, maybe she knows.

I've heard this story many times. It's a—well, pirate radio, I mean, that's actually kind of opposite of the free radio that's sponsored usually by the public or by private companies, and that you can't really say what you want, just the normal airwaves.

So, pirate radio is privately owned and not really on FM radio or AM radio, but on the internet, and they can say what they want. So, there's a few other explanations, but that's one of them. They can say what they want.

Sure, they can. Not in America for much longer. Let me put this another way. They can say what needs to be said without fear of retribution.

Okay, well, that's a good way to do it. So, Amy, tell folks a little bit about yourself and the ministries that you have, so folks know a little bit about you.

Well, I guess you could say I'm one of those dreaded discernment bloggers. Most people know who I am that way, but I would say that discernment ministries get a bad rap, and probably for a good reason.

But having said that, there is value to some of the sites where people report on some of the movements in the modern church that are leading people astray, especially if people are just looking for answers about cults or movements.

And so, there are men and women out there who have done the legwork, and their articles actually help establish a pattern so that you can research some of these things, like the topic we're going to be talking about today.

But I'm a small-town Wisconsin girl, and my husband and I live on a little hobby farm up here, and we're snowed in at the moment, so it's great. And so, I'm a non-drama queen. I just enjoy doing my writing and just letting people know who Jesus Christ is, because really discernment does not come from a blog.

It comes from spending time with our Lord in His Word and abiding in Him. I always point people to Scripture first and always.

Yeah, and we met each other just recently for a first time at G3. Yes, we did. So, that was kind of fun. So, let's talk, I mean, New Apostolic Reformation may be new to some folks. I first really got tuned into this under a different name, and that was The Third Wave of the Holy Spirit from a book that was written by C. Peter Wagner.

That was really, he was laying out a case that there was the second wave of the Holy Spirit was the charismatic movement, and now we're entering into a third wave, and there's going to be these apostles and prophets and things like that in this next phase.

Yes, it's actually, that's kind of how I heard about it first, too. In fact, about, gosh, in 2010, I was asked to help launch a radio program, and it was a discernment program, kind of a one-of-its-kind up here in Wisconsin.

And I didn't even know what this was, but I called it the Signs and Wonders Movement. And really, signs and wonders are just one part of what the New Apostolic Reformation really is. So, this movement, and I always call it NAR for short, just because New Apostolic Reformation is quite a mouthful.

But it's also known as the Apostolic Prophetic Movement or Apostles and Prophets Movement, and there are many, many other names like third wave, which I can talk about, but I think would be a really good idea to kind of define what it is, because a lot of people have never even heard the term before.

Yeah, I wanted to start with definitions of terms, because this is the one thing I want to warn folks, is that there's going to be terminology that you may hear from this group that the way they use terminology and the way the Bible uses terminology is going to be different.

And if you don't ask for definitions, you don't pick up that they have a totally different meaning for the words they use. Exactly. I want you to first define New Apostolic Reformation, and then there's a couple key terms I would like to get into, how they define things like apostles and prophets.

Yes. Well, first we need to understand that the NAR isn't really an official organization, and it can't be really characterized by a common creed, which really throws people off. People who are actually in it or readers in it don't really even like or adhere to that title, NAR, because really it's finally starting to get exposed and they want to distance themselves from it.

And so to define what it is and isn't really helps people who've been caught in its snare. So here's the definition that I have kind of come up with, just based on all of the elements that I've seen. It's a fast-growing, dominionist movement of new apostles and prophets who will lead God's end-times army in establishing His kingdom on earth by taking authority over earthly and spiritual realms.

Now, that's quite a long definition, but each part of it contains all of the elements that this group of nondistinct traits embodies. So people who are leaders, again, they don't call themselves NAR. In fact, most will outright deny their participation, and that's really how hard this is to pin down for people.

So we have to look at not what they deny, but at the fruit, at what they teach. And I've got a couple of key things here that they teach. First of all, first and foremost, the NAR teaches that after 2 ,000 years or so, God is now restoring the lost offices of apostles and prophets to govern and rule all Christian churches in these end times, giving churches these new marching orders directly from God.

And it's really a global movement. It's not just in the United States, but it's radically transforming churches in their teachings and their practices. And I saw an estimate somewhere that three million Christians in America whose churches have overtly embraced and are governed by apostles and prophets.

So that's a real key thing, the governance part of it.

The first time that I got exposed to someone saying something similar like that was actually not the NAR or Third Wave. It was another group called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Ah, yes. They have almost the same type of governance, don't they?

And they make the same argument that the church needed to be restored. See, now they do it a little different. They restore the prophets and the priests. They go back to the Aaronic Priesthood and all, where the NAR has the prophets and the apostles.

But the thinking is actually the same. It is—is it not? Let me ask it to you. Is it not that they're claiming a authority with a change or a restoration, and this group that is going to be the authority has the right to change things?

Exactly. And we find that once a church kind of absconds its authority to an NAR system, it loses its authority. And so right down to the fact that these churches can't even hire new people because they don't have the authority anymore to do that.

So it's really interesting that way. And, you know, the primary focus is the teaching that God has restored these lost offices of apostles and prophets to rule these Christian churches. So when Christians receive and obey these new words allegedly coming from the apostles and prophets, then they too can do miracles.

And this is kind of strange. They want to establish God's physical kingdom on earth and usher in Jesus' return. So it's not Jesus coming back on his own and no one knows the day of the time or the hour.

It's that they are going to make it happen.

Apostles, Prophets, and Restored Authority

So let's start with some terms of or distinctions of apostles, prophets, because these are two new positions that they would hold. I'd like you to go through how they define it compared to how Scripture defines it.

Sure. Well, apostles and prophets, we've read about them in Scripture, and we haven't really had these offices for, you know, centuries. So when we hear apostle, maybe in our churches today, maybe your pastor defines apostle as sent one.

So in Greek, apostle means one sent forth. So that sounds about right, right? We often hear missionaries being described as sent ones who bring the good news of the gospel to people around the world. So in a sense, we're all apostles, right?

We ought to all be sharing the good news. But that's not really how the NAR apostles describe themselves. Today's new apostles are appointed by other apostles through the laying of hands, which it's actually passing a mantle.

So if you hear someone talk about passing a mantle, it's not just a leadership role. Apostles and prophets are to represent and speak for God here on earth and to raise an army of workers in these end times.

So that army thing is very important to them. So again, these apostles are equal in power to the original apostles, they say, the ones who actually witnessed Jesus's life, death, and resurrection and were appointed by Christ himself.

Now, that's how the Bible defines apostles. But since these new apostles claim to be commissioned by God too, their authority must not be questioned. Now, that doesn't really sound like sent one, does it?

It really doesn't. So in fact, you'd mentioned C. Peter Wagner, and he's got some very interesting things to say about apostles. But he came up with three different types of apostles. There are the vertical apostles who lead organizations such as apostolic networks, and they provide direct so-called spiritual covering, counsel, correction for those in their networks.

And then there's the horizontal apostles. Now, these apostles lead groups of peers, such as all the pastors in the city or all the apostles in the nation, and they work together to accomplish some sort of specific purpose.

And then there's the workplace apostles. And these apostles provide leadership for Christians working in different sectors of society, so real estate, government, health care, media, that kind of thing.

And then if you look at the definition for prophets, NAR also has its own description of prophets. So just like the prophets in the Old Testament, NAR prophets claim to receive direct instructions from God Almighty for the church to advance the kingdom.

Funny, they don't ever tell you to touch the spirits. In fact, the prophetic predictions are so vague, there's really no way to test them. But here's how we define it, and this was a huge challenge for our churches today, because when we run into the word prophet, evangelicals have typically redefined it to mean something other than how the Bible describes it.

So there's a little confusion there. The real prophets that we read about in Scripture actually spoke for God, right? So he would tell them to speak an oracle to a certain group, and it was always God's words, not the prophets.

A real prophet of God in Scripture is one who warns and leads you to repentance and reconciliation, and the Israelites would have known that. So one who knows that judgment is coming. So the prophets that we should be following are the ones in Scripture.

But today in modern evangelicalism, a prophet has been redefined as someone who can recall a Scripture verse for a particular situation. So they get a word or something. So is that really the gift of prophecy?

I don't know, Andrew, I would call it wisdom as we grow in maturity and we bury Scripture in our hearts. So the prophets in the Bible had to be 100 accurate, but they were put to death. And NAR prophecies are often either unfulfilled or completely false.

Yeah, it's kind of interesting. I heard one person state that the track record for the NAR prophets are anywhere between 35 to 85%.

Yes, I've heard that same teaching. And these teachers will tell you that their prophecies that didn't come true aren't necessarily false prophecies. They're just prophecies that were false. So kind of wrap your mind around that.

I'm not really wrong. I'm just not right. Right. I'm just not right. But words are important. These definitions are so key. So if we're going to discern, we also need to know that the word apostle or prophet might make people feel uncomfortable.

And that's why apostles are often also called generals, which if you hear that, that's a code word for apostle, especially if they're at a conference speaking to mainstream Christians who might be concerned if they heard the word apostle.

Every once in a while, I name names, but it's only because we need to mark an avoid. And so one of the key leaders is Mike Bickle, who founded the International House of Prayer or IHOP. He is known as a general.

In other words, he goes by his harvester. And prophets have been called secret intelligence agents who feed revelations to the generals who then develop a strategy. So it's really interesting once you dive deep into this stuff.

You get to know a whole different lingo.

Well, that's the thing that actually is concerning to me because, again, I'll take it to another organization, and that is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or another organization, the Jehovah Witnesses.

Yeah. When you look at the Watchtower, you look at the Latter-day Saints, what you end up seeing with both of them is they use specific language when they're dealing with evangelicals where they have a different meaning of the term than an evangelical would have, and they know that, but they're gonna use that terminology almost to deceive to say, you know, we're a Christian like you until you become part of us, and then we're gonna tell you the real meaning of these things.

Exactly. To me, it seems that they appeal to evangelicals to deceive and to pull them in and make it sound like they're Christian too, which always boggled my mind. I mean, the Mormon Church started because they said that the gospel needed to be restored and the church fell away, and the Jehovah Witnesses started because they said that the church had got things wrong and we needed them, and the Catholic Church first, they were the ones to say that we that believe in justification by faith alone, we got it wrong and needed to return to Mother Church, and now all three of those organizations want to say they're Christian like us.

Huh.

Exactly. Isn't that interesting? But that's how they get you to believe, or that's how they get the undiscerning to believe that they are just like us and we've got a better way of doing things. Well, I think it has a dual purpose.

It pulls in the undiscerning, but what it actually does is this, and this is why I think it's so hard for family members that have people involved in NAR to deal with this, is because it gives the appearance that, hey, we're Christian too, we're just like you, we use the same language, or maybe we use some different words in some other areas, but it means the same things as what you mean, and it gives the idea that you can't judge them, you can't attack them.

If you look at the Mormons, we're Christian too, or I am Christian thing that they were doing, the whole purpose of it is to say, well, you shouldn't be evangelizing us because we're Christian just like you.

Yeah. Also, the other factor is, like the Mormons, a lot of these NAR teachers are the nicest, sweetest people that you'd ever want to meet. Instantly, your defenses are down, and you just want to love people.

It's very challenging for those who don't know what this is really all about.

Amy, you are the big meanie having to tell people that this is bad, right? Yeah, unfortunately.

Well, I try to do it as gently as possible, but even if you put on your soft kitten voice, and you say it gently and sweetly, and you put your arms around them and try to guide them away from the cliff that they're about to fall over, a lot of people really like their teachers and their teachings, and they don't even like the sound of the word false teacher.

Depending on whom I'm speaking with, I even avoid that word, but I'll use other biblical texts or just examples of what others have gone through. It is a challenge to try to reach people, but reach we must.

Well, see, you have that advantage of having a sweet kitten voice. I can't pull that one off, so let's talk. I just can't. I have the open-air preacher voice. My voice could bellow out, but the soft part I don't have.

Listen, I want to play a commercial after that. What I'd like to do is I would like to talk to you about dominionism and their whole view that they have of taking dominion, because it seems to be central to their thinking.

Let's talk about that right after this.

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So many Christians struggle with suffering, and yet they do it alone because most of us are too ashamed to let others know that we're struggling. We struggle alone because we think that there's something wrong.

As Christians, we shouldn't be struggling at all. We should just have the answers, and yet that's not the case. There's many of us who struggles, whether it be within our marriage, whether it be with our children, whether it be with physical ailments.

I want to let you know of a conference coming to Freehold, New Jersey to help with this. It is called the Sanctification Through Suffering Conference. It is going to be held at Chinese American Bible Church in Freehold, New Jersey.

You can get all the information and the speakers. The speakers will be Justin Peters, who if you know him, you know he struggles physically, Frank Mullis, Colleen Sharp, and Joe Suazo. And we will have this conference.

You can get all the details and register at strivingforeternity .org slash conference dash on dash suffering. Get all the details, and I hope to see you there. And I'll try to put in the show notes the links to the conference or link to the conference.

I really encourage you to think about coming to that if you can. The thing with that conference is really this simple. Most of us are ashamed to let anyone know that we struggle, and so many of us do.

So many of us struggle with anxiety, depression, physical things, marriage, kids, whatever it is, and we're going to have great speakers. For folks who may not know Pastor Mullis, he is one of Georgia's leading experts with dealing with sexual abusers, and so he has an expertise that none of us really want, but he has an expertise to really help people in the areas of sexual abuse and dealing with those struggles.

But what he also is going to do a message on, which I'm looking forward to, is he is going to do a message on dealing with suffering and persecution to prepare, because America will be changing, I think, its views on Christianity, and we're going to see some persecution, I think, coming our way, and he's going to prepare us for some of that.

So consider going to that conference. You can get the details at strivingforeternity .org. It is the Sanctification Through Suffering Conference. So Amy, let me ask you. There is, what I've noticed as I study NAR is this idea of taking dominion, and there's a lot of talk of kingdom within this movement.

Why is that so central to their thinking and their theology?

Dominionism, the Seven Mountains, and Church Authority

Well, it's about the power to be able to bring Jesus back. I mentioned activating his return. That's one of their key goals. Dominionism, they hang their hat on this tower, and they want to bring Jesus back by taking dominion of our physical, earthly realm, and also the spiritual, demonic realm.

So here in our physical world, they've identified these seven spheres of influence, or mountains, and that's where the so-called seven-mountain mandate comes from. Are you familiar with that, Andrew, the seven-mountain mandate?

I've done a little bit of reading on it, but I'm not super familiar with it because I just went, I read an article on it and went, ow, my head hurts.

It does, I know. But these seven mountains really to be conquered for Jesus before he can return are the government, media, entertainment, education, business, family, and religion. You might see it more, and I know the secular world sees it more in government.

They talk about, you know, this right-wing conspiracy to take over the government. Well, they wouldn't be too far off in some of the goals of these networks. They really do have these, and I don't want to sound all loony tunes, but they really do have operatives who have that as a goal, and they will convince people.

Before we move on to the other, this is the importance that I think many of them see with Trump, because many of them support him, right?

Well, absolutely. Absolutely, and if you look at Trump's, I'll have to pull up this article I did on Berean Research. I have this article that when Trump first established his advisory team, his Christian advisory team, the people that he included really came straight out of the NAR, I will say, and I'll put that on, I'll send that to you, and maybe you can look it up, but it's really fascinating, the people who pray over him regularly and the people he consults.

So, do I think he's NAR? No, I just think that he doesn't know any better.

He's like any politician, willing to do whatever to get elected.

Exactly. You know, that's true with both sides, I'm sure. So, they convince people that, oh, this is biblical, and you can find elements of it in scripture, which makes it really hard for people to discern, but really, make no mistake, this seven mountain mandate thing is a new doctrine.

To usher in any physical kingdom of God is not what the Bible says at all. But they also, and I kind of touched on this before the break, they also take dominion in church leadership. So, most churches, maybe yours does, has pastors and elders overseeing local church.

Well, the NAR would say that those churches, your church, would be disobedient and displeasing to God. So, if you want to be obedient to what God is doing right now, your churches and pastors must submit to the authority of the closest apostle near you in proximity, and they always point to the fivefold ministry.

You probably have heard that before, and they point to Ephesians 4 .11 that talks about the fivefold ministry. So, while you may have evangelists and teachers and shepherds in your church, you have to submit all your authority to your local apostle and prophet if you don't have one.

And if you don't do that, you are outside of authority, Andrew, and you will not be part of his end time plans. So, that's really, truly what they teach about that.

Yeah, and it's something that is so hard, I think, and you brought this up in the beginning, to really systematize the NAR. I mean, I found this when I wrote my book, What Do They Believe?, I started to systematize different world religions.

So, I started with my background in Judaism, and I did it with Catholicism and Islam and Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons. And when I got to Hinduism and Buddhism, I had to stop because you really can't—they don't have a central authority, in a sense.

And yet, they do, and this is what makes them a little bit different, they do kind of have the authorities of these prophets and apostles that you can't question. Well, do you know of any systematic theology books for the NAR?

No, I mean, everybody has a book. In fact, a lot of them will write the same type of book at the same time, and you'll get this slew of books on different aspects of what they're trying to push on you.

So, for instance, Dream Destinies. A couple years ago, I believe it was like 2016, a whole bunch of books by a whole bunch of teachers came out on finding your dream or achieving God's dream, and it was just crazy.

I mean, we pinpointed like 25 new books that were just coming out at the same time, Bible studies, how-to books on finding the dream that God planted in your heart and trying to make that come true so that you can have an influence in one of these seven spheres.

It's interesting how that publishing works. So, I know your mind is probably just spinning right now. There's so much to this, though.

Prayer Walks, Spiritual Warfare, and Deliverance Ministries

Well, let me—I want to talk about one aspect of it that I've noticed, and that I notice is kind of there's—well, there's two aspects that they use to try to pull people in. Now, you know me. I'm big on evangelism, but one of the things I first came across was these prayer walks that people do.

Yeah. And I admit, walking around a town and praying for it is much more comfortable than actually evangelizing, like, I mean, opening your mouth and having to talk to someone. It's much easier to get a whole bunch of people to just walk town, and I remember a And I was kicked out because I had the nerve to not wear a shirt that they wanted, but to wear a shirt that would actually be more evangelistic, and to actually have gospel tracks and hand them out, and you can't do that.

What I ended up in talking to the folks there is that this is one of two ways that I see that they pull people in. So, I want to talk about this one first, and then I want to talk about the music. Sure.

Sure. What they're doing here is the spiritual realm. So, we talked about taking dominion of the worldly realm. This is how you take dominion of the spiritual realm through spiritual warfare. Spiritual warfare is a real thing, but what they do is they've redefined the word again.

So, they engage in spiritual warfare by doing these prayer works of taking dominion and demanding that the demonic realm submit to them. And really, there's nothing wrong with walking and praying around your city or around a park or around a school.

Nothing wrong with that at all. But when you start engaging with the demonic, trying to take over territories for Jesus, that goes across a line. That actually is not a biblical concept that you would find anywhere in Scripture.

And the other thing that they do is they have deliverance ministries to try to cast demons out of people. They have supernatural exorcisms, and that's another way that leaders control the demonic realm.

So, and it's all tied together. If they can get a NAR, N-A-R, apostle as a leader or a top influencer in any of the seven spheres or even in the spiritual realm, then they can cast these demons out who are influencing that sphere.

And only then can they transform it and bring heaven to earth.

NAR Worship Music, Soaking Prayer, and Emotional Manipulation

Okay, so let's talk about the second way that I think they influence the most, and that is through their music. You know, one of the things Justin Peters brought out when he and I did an episode on the charismatic Catholic movement, and we talked about charismatic movement itself, and he brought out the point that you couldn't have all of the Word of Faith stuff without the music.

I argue the same is true with NAR. You could not have the NAR without the music. And yet, for some of you listening, you sing some of the NAR songs in your churches and don't even know it. So how do they use music?

What is the music behind them that's most known and used in many churches?

Well, it's interesting because you are absolutely right. So many people in mainstream churches have brought in music that is written for the NAR type of theology. And so what music does is it conjures up this emotional high.

It goes on and on. There's a certain beat to it, and it brings people to tears. And it's the same kind of music used in something called the soaking prayer, where you play this hypnotic music, you lie on the floor with a pillow and soak in God's presence.

But it's all emotion-based, designed to bring you to a higher plane of consciousness so you can hear directly from God. And honestly, there's nothing wrong with having an emotional experience at all when you are praising and worshiping God.

But when you are using these tools that are designed to bring a different influence, it can be concerning. Actually, there's a couple of churches. The Hilfong brand, that franchise does this type of emotional high music.

And some of their music is fine, but there are a lot of songs that actually are talking about bringing heaven to earth in a way that you can manipulate. And so another one is Bethel Redding's main tool for bringing you into the presence and glory of God is their own worship brand, and you will recognize that it's known around the world as Jesus's culture.

So again, these musicians play in a certain key. I've talked to people who've been on worship teams in these type of churches. So they learn to play a certain way with a certain beat, and it's all to bring you into the presence of God.

And once you hear it, you can't unhear it. There's an episode on Pirate Christian Radio that Chris Roseboro did with myself and a gentleman named Steve Kozar. We listened to some of Hilfong's music and some of Jesus's culture music, and then we compared it to scripture.

And Steve was that musician who learned how to play in a different beat. So fascinating episode.

I'll have to send it to you. Yeah, I mean, because one of the things that happened with the contemporary Christian music was that people used to try to argue that music is amoral, it has no morality, it doesn't affect anything, it doesn't affect your emotions, there's nothing that doesn't matter what style of music.

And yet, you watch any horror movie, and there's a different type of music that they're going to play in a horror movie than they're going to play in a Hallmark movie. Why? Yeah, your heartbeat will change.

You anticipate it. Yeah, music is key. And the reason I have a paper on the website Striving for Eternity about music, because I think the reason it's more dangerous than the lyrics, the lyrics affect our thinking.

And what James ends up telling us is he lays out for us basically a path of sin, and it starts in our thinking. Our thinking is our strongest defense against sin. The second is our emotions. But if something can get past your thinking, that's a little bit closer to getting you to sin with the emotions and then your volition.

And so what I see is here you have the music that affects the emotions. The lyrics could even be sound, but the music, because that's going to the emotions, has a greater opportunity to bring you into a sinful state than the lyrics could.

And people usually just look at the lyrics and think, oh, well, that's good. And yet, like you said, so much of this music is hypnotic. I think that one of the things that you end up seeing is that they need that to get you to buy into the rest of what they're going to end up teaching, because it's so out there you almost have to be hypnotized first.

Well, I'm glad you said that because we have a church up in my neck of the woods that regularly brings in prophetic teachers, signs and wonders, very interesting types of things. In fact, right before they brought in Patricia King, she's known as one of the top psychic seers in their realm, they actually had a worship service that lasted an hour and a half of this hypnotic music where everybody was just swaying mindlessly.

And I watched it via live stream, and I was kind of doing this, comparing the scripture while I was watching it. And it was unbelievable. People were just lost in the music. And by the time Patricia came out, she could say anything, and they pretty much do anything.

And after my report came out on that particular service, they never live streamed again. But I wish I would have taped it.

It was very interesting. Now, I want to talk about some other things that they end up doing. They have their School of Prophets, and they do something I think is really scary. I want to talk about what they do with their School of Prophets and teaching even young children.

I want to deal with that after a break, but I want to talk about the whole School of Prophets, and they have these camps for kids. And to me, that's heartbreaking when you think about the kids. So let's talk about that after this.

You can also get that at strivingforeternity .org. I'm one of the authors of that book, and it's a great book. Even if you don't want to study Mormonism, it's a great book for evangelism because there's 20-plus different tactics to evangelize.