Response To The Abolition Debate & Controversy

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When the scribes and Pharisees asked our Lord about the greatest commandment He replied you shall love the

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Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all

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Your strength. So why do we hear some of today's most prominent pastors saying things like this? it had everything to do with how we talk about the

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Bible and Specifically or along with that what we point to as the foundation of faith, which for most

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Christians unfortunately is the Bible We need to do better.

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We need to love God with all our hearts and stand unashamedly on the rock of his word We need to love the

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Lord with all of our souls and respond to the worldview issues of our day with the wisdom and discernment

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That comes only from him We need to love the Lord with our minds and understand the calling of God's people in every area of life in God's world

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We need to love the Lord our God with all our strength and face the work of building a life -giving

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God honoring culture Join us for four days at the Cultural Leadership Academy as we consider how the gospel

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Influences all of life and culture and the role that we have to play in applying foundational

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Christian thinking to every area of life I would say if the authorities didn't want us involved in the public square

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They ought not to have crucified Jesus in the public square He's humanistic principle. I would say the same idea.

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I would say man I would say what's the problem with stardust bumping into stardust? In the in the cosmic picture.

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No, there's no problem in the cosmic picture. It won't matter No, mr.

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President you are not protecting Reproductive freedom you are authorizing the destruction of freedom for one million little human beings every year

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I'm sorry, my friends, but I am tired of seeing Jesus presented as a weak

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Beggar He is a powerful Savior and the gospel is not a suggestion.

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It is a command River Mola, don't you sympathize with that?

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I sympathize with every single human heart wishing to know the one true and living God But I believe there's only one way that that can happen through Jesus Christ and the gospel is about repenting of sin not celebrating it amazing adventure

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We will explore the spiritual of this You shall not be partial in judgment

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You shall hear the small and the great Like I love that one

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Deuteronomy chapter 1 verse 17 There's lots of those by the way You can find them everywhere a ton a ton of them

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Welcome back everybody to apology or radio. This is the gospel heard around the world We're so grateful that you've joined us for this important episode today.

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Thank you. Thank you. Thank you Like sure you share this episode across them social media platforms. I'm Jeff.

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They call me the ninja. That's Luke the bear That's Zachary Conover. Hey guys director of communications at end abortion now

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Do go to end abortion now calm. You have been hearing us saying that we are

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About to we are approaching the most brutal and bloodiest part of this abortion

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Holocaust in our nation We are not at the tail end of this fight I believe we're at the beginning of the faithfulness part of this fight, but it's about to get very bad

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We have ballot measures happening across the entire country right now. There are a number of them Including our state

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Arizona ballot measures if you don't know what they are ballot measures are these measures going in across states? Where they are getting the community to say that we want this on the ballot to vote as a community in this state

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And they are to update the state's constitution now in the state of Arizona the language is purposefully ambiguous and It essentially is going to allow for the legalization of the murder of the pre -born in the state's very constitution from conception all the way up to birth essentially and That's happening across the country.

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And so if anybody told you That you know, we're in this victorious moment.

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We've got abortion fee free states. They're lying to you They're selling you a bill of goods We are about to enter into the bloodiest and most brutal part of this

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Holocaust and so we need to stand up for those that can't speak for themselves love our neighbors as we love ourselves and So go to end abortion now comm for two reasons one

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Because of what I just said and this is the truth You need to partner with us so you can get the free training and free resources

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We want nothing from your church nothing want to give everything away to you To train you and equip you and to prepare you for the ministry outside of the mills to save lives

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Join the almost thousand churches that are in the end abortion now Network that are going out.

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They've been saving lives tens of thousands of lives have been saved and we're grateful to God for that And we're gonna need your church

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Doing this as well this is a work and mission of the church because of the gospel because of the Word of God and So go there to get your church signed up get the free training and then also go to end abortion now comm to give

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We're gonna need you We are one small ministry amongst a lot of other ministries that are faithful Christian ministries led by Christians Who are fighting this battle?

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There's there's aspects that? are parts for us that were we are sort of Planting and growing and getting bills of abolition and equal protection in and of those other two

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You know teams and ministries are helping us and then there's other parts where we are actually Supporting and backing them up and helping them and so we're all working together as the church

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This is the church's thing. And so we need your support we do not have the funding that these major pro -life organizations have tens of millions of dollars and Yet the

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Lord is giving us so much to do. And so we need your financial support to do it and So that's that's where you go first Don't forget to go to apologiestudios .com

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sign up for all access partner with us in all this ministry. So Excuse me

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Sorry guys bad allergies finally kicking in yeah, I got hit with a mystery to Arizona Exactly.

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It's always brutal. Everyone's like I moved to Arizona to get away from all the allergies. No, don't do that Yeah, don't do that.

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Your life will be ruined. This place is the worst in the nation I think just think when it's 115 you'll be cleared right up, right?

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That's what one thinks and then you realize that actually everybody moved plants and things Into the valley that weren't supposed to be here and there's nowhere where it clears out and there's dust

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It's it's it's a nightmare for allergies Anyway, so wanted to do this special program and bring our good friend constitutional attorney

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Bradley Pierce on he is driving right now But we want to do this writing writing.

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He's why technically he's sorry. He's not driving. He's writing. Yeah, it would be dangerous But we want to bring him in here's the reason why we did a

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Debate discussion show last week with our brother Samuel say we have some significant disagreements with him and he does with us chose to do it in the way that we did because I'll just be very upfront and transparent with you all there's a lot of abuse going on online and you know a

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Lot of scandal a lot of slander a lot of abuse a lot of talking past each other and I felt like look

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You know, you could do a moderated public debate But if I do that I want to do it with someone like Doug Wilson who's a heavy hitter and I would want to do it in a formal

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Public moderated debate setting with someone like Doug with someone like Samuel. He's been talking a lot about the issue where he is

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Opposing the principles of biblical principles of abolition and in many ways we would argue and so I wanted to do it as a brotherly

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Discussion and debate that's why we did it that way And so I'm glad that we did it that way.

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Of course, the the wheels came off a few times Just because there's no one in the middle of it, it's a you know, it's a discussion two guys talking to each other

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That's bound to happen. It's not a moderated public debate But what during the discussion? There were a lot of points brought up from from bottom to top

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We try to touch on as much as we could two hours long. I want to say at the start that a lot of there's a bit of Controversy that surrounded the discussion at this point and so we wanted to address some of it and offer some some clarifications some explanations, but also hopefully some correctives to Some that we would associate ourselves with in this in this movement to establish justice for the pre -born in Jesus name and so we wanted to do this discussion and and talk about what we think are some important issues and Honestly some inconsistencies that we see within our own camp on this this that we need to clear up So I'll bring

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Bradley Pearson right now Bradley. Thank you for joining us with your very busy schedule, brother Hey, great to be with y 'all.

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Thanks for having me heading off to Branson, Missouri right now, right? That's right Christian, Vegas Oh, yeah

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Genuinely is really Oh for real. It's like Christian, Vegas. It's it's unbelievable Like I well,

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I went there for a Christian counselors thing many years ago a convention and I didn't even know it

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No one explained to me what I was walking into. So when I pull into Branson, Missouri, no one said a word to me I'm just like what is this place?

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I didn't even know it existed. It's like legit Christian, Vegas Wow, it's wild What were you gambling for?

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No, it was I had to go to this home school curriculum No, I didn't go to this three -day, you know

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Christian counselors conference thing for for work as the chaplain at the hospital thing And yeah, no, it's you know, there's like crazy

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Christian shows and animatronics and wow No, I'm not joking. I will say

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I'm sorry getting off rails here to say quickly I it is my dream to go back to Branson, Missouri during Christmas time with my family because that's about when

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I went and it Was so it was so so amazing. So anyway Bradley, let's start by telling everyone about what's coming up with your conference in October.

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Let's lead the way with that Definitely yeah, we got a conference coming up one day conference

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October 18th Friday October 18th in Dallas Equipping the Saints to abolish abortion.

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It's we're gonna have a lot of great speakers We have of course Jeff Jeff's gonna be there one of our speakers

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Tom Askew with founders ministries Josh spice with g3 Virgil g3

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Pastor and Oklahoma State Senator Dusty Deavers will be there pastor

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Brett Baggett from Oklahoma as well Pastor Phil George from Texas and I will all be speaking about you know, what what can we be doing?

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What should we be doing in this age where? Abortion is not getting better since Dobbs Everything's getting worse and we've got to have the right answer to that as the church and that's what we'll be talking about Excellent brother

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So let's get right into it again unique show today because we're talking about a show that we did and offering some

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Clarifications and and and all the rest. So if you haven't seen the discussion with Samuel go check it out

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It's in the last two weeks posted there on apology of studios or here on apology of studios on YouTube So one of well start with this and this is just being transparent with everybody and Samuel will tell you the truth

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That Day when I walked into the studio I had had one of many over the last seven months completely sleepless nights because if you don't know

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I have adopted twins and Bradley knows the knows the life.

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Well, he's got two sets of twins and And look you can take this or leave it whatever you

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I don't care if you try to vilify me for it or whatever you Try to do with it. This is just the truth and God knows and even

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Sam Oh knows I sat down with him before I started I said Samuel just want to warn you I didn't sleep last night because of the twins they were up all night and I said, you know

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I've been going like seven months with no sleep. I said so my brains function about 5 % capacity right now so I was like don't even worry about like having an intense crazy discussion right now because my brain is not functioning and And so that's that's what it is

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Take it or leave it And so if there was any point in the conversation where I wasn't as clear as I'd like to be or as I normally am

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You know, that's on me and it's on me being without sleep and try to offer as many clarifications as I could and I think

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Entering this discussion. I want to make sure everyone hears What I wanted to communicate.

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Yeah now You heard me say that I think that the common

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Incrementalism versus immediatism Classification is not ultimately helpful in this discussion not the right way to frame it it's not the right way to frame it because it doesn't express the reality that we're in and what we're actually doing as Abolitionists and here's what

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I mean by that. So when Samuel was asking me the question about let me give you a crazy hypothetical situation where you murder is is punished by capital punishment in a place and That's that that's the it's the death penalty and that's that's just that can be just in God's law

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By the way, it's not always just but it you know It can be just in God's law According to certain standards and then you have a situation where in that place they they give equal protection to all and so there's there's

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The bill that gives equal protection to all but then they also say but the mother will be exempt from capital punishment well what

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I said numerous times in the episode is I would say I would support this aspect of the bill because that's the category right there of Criminalization is it what is going on?

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And then there's the penal sanctions aspect the punishment aspect that is a that is a separate category

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And it's dealt with separately in Scripture. You see that in Scripture you have calling it what it is theft murder rape whatever the case is and then you get the examples of and here's how you punish in differing degrees of whether it's theft or Murder or what kind of murder was it?

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You know wasn't an axe head that was loose and the person know this sort of a thing Is it something that was with malice of forethought all that?

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Scripture does have those separate categories and I even saw people online and by the way, I paid attention to almost nothing

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Because I don't choice because honestly, I don't care. I do it for the glory of God. I'm not doing it for your pleasure

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I'm not doing it to be part of your team. I'll be as blunt as I can. I'm not I'm not even excited about or pursuing

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Stamping the label abolitionist on my tombstone on my forehead. I want to be a follower of Jesus and a Christian I happen to be someone who follows the methodology of abolition and belief abolition, but I'm not part of the abolition cult

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And if you don't like that It doesn't bother me I'm not interested in joining your your your abolition movement that wants to you know

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Where the brand and it's all about the brand and I want to be known as the abolitionist to put abolitionist in my name And Facebook and all that all the rest of stuff that may seem very direct and harsh

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But that's just the way it is. And so in Scripture In Scripture you have the category of what is the crime?

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Is it a sin? Is it a sin and a crime and then how do you punish it? There's different categories in Scripture and it was interesting.

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I saw people saying response to the episode last week They're like he's not even a theonomist Okay, I've taught on theonomy

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We are the station for Greg Bonson's entire life work I've taught on theonomy across the country many men have

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Turned to a theonomic view of ethics because of apology or radio Okay, but I'm not a theonomist But I seem to understand theonomy a little better than some in terms of he's not a theonomist

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But you don't know the difference between something being a crime and then how it's penalized in Scripture two different categories So I was saying two categories and people were mocking that saying oh, he's just trying to make excuses by calling it categories.

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I'm sorry That's what it is. That's what it is And I'm not gonna apologize for doing what

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Scripture does and calling the two different categories and it's funny because Before this discussion with Samuel, it seems like every abolitionist instinctively understood the difference between The bill over here that makes it a crime and then the aspect of the penology the penal sanctions over here

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And here's why you until 15 minutes ago. Every abolitionist understood this distinction because here's the proof

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Every abolition bill that has happened across the country that either other people put in and we've supported them or that we've put in And they've supported us whether it's something like the

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Faithful Brothers in Oklahoma did where we were just backing them up supporting them or something in Louisiana where we put it in And people were backing us up every single one of them dealt with the category of criminalization and what did it say equal protection and Image of God and what does that do it then moves this category of criminalization into the state's

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Penal sanctions and how is this dealt with in the state and guess what? If you say immediatism versus incrementalism and you're like it has to be perfect justice the whole comprehensive thing

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Then you've been supporting unjust bills With every bill of abolition you've supported over the last couple of years because if those bills were passed and they went into the state's code

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Penal sanctions and all the rest guess what? There is injustice in every one of these states biblically defined in terms of Witnesses and what happens if they're lying in in the case

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So give example capital punishment is what God calls for ultimately as just for murder

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There's no question about that scripture teaches that from beginning to end, but God doesn't just Excuse me.

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God doesn't just say Kill someone who kills someone else the state does that?

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He doesn't just say that he lays a foundation of a system of justice Where he says

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Witnesses have to be able to be punished if they're found to be lying They have to be punished with the punishment that they the other person person would have gotten

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Yeah, have they been believed right that protects the person being accused.

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That's justice That's Deuteronomy. You also have to have in God's standards of justice

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You also have to have rules for independent witness and testimony. You have to have rules for cross -examination

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You can't just use circumstantial evidence. Although we could go for days on this. Here's the problem ready Every abolition bill that has happened in the last 10 years

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Was right and just in its category Okay, God's pleased with this.

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There's no partiality But in the penal sanctions aspect going in we were sending people if that would have passed into an unjust legal system of Punishment.

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All right, because it can't change both at the same time with the same bill and when we say and People are gonna get us on this guys

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Be humble. I'm sorry be be humble and Recognize an error in your thinking don't just firm up your commitments to the organization and leader in any case of your life

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If we don't recognize the inconsistencies in our thinking by saying perfect justice comprehensive justice pleasing to God Completely immediatism versus incrementalism.

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Just know people are gonna go. Oh, wait a second. Wait a second there's a problem in your

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Comprehensive and perfect justice and that's that you'd be sending people into a judicial system that God is displeased with and he says isn't just Okay So my point that I was trying to make to Samuel and I said look

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I'll play this for everyone real fast And I'm gonna have Bradley come on and explain More your point is that's not the right way to frame the discussion.

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That's exactly right So here you go. This is what I said at the end of the show and I'll let everyone see this I'd be willing to do that in a heartbeat

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I think that would actually help in many ways in terms of having some moderation but I thought it'd be good actually to have this conversation with my brother

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Sam because I wanted to do in such a way that hopefully we can show that look we can have this conversation as brothers with respect with gentleness with love and You can even have moments of you know, heated disagreement and still leave the situation

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Loving each other and caring about each other and so So anyway, that's what we did this way. We can obviously have more in the future and sorry just sending messages here, so Okay, final final thoughts from my perspective and I'm sure

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Sam will maybe write something up and and give his final thoughts I think that one of my the challenges in this discussion was

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When you know Sam would ask me the question Like he tried to give the scenario of you know, total criminalization equal protection, but in the penology section over here

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You've got the woman who's you know, she's she's shown partiality in the judge in the judge in the justice

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For the penology what I was saying was that I would speak prophetically against it I would I think I repeated that numerous times

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I would speak God's Word against it. I would condemn that And I said I would I would of course

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Support the category over here of equal protection and making it a crime, but the penology over here

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I would be speaking against it. And so I just didn't seem to connect with Sam And maybe

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I had a hard time articulating it and that so I'll take the blame for that if that's true So there you go.

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Just want to play that so to start this I want to say very humbly It sounds like I did not communicate my position.

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Well during this episode at a point I Haven't listened to the whole episode again

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I did scan through a few times where I repeated myself in terms of trying to communicate to Samuel I'm saying the category over here of equal protection was right at condemn this over here and speak prophetically against that and I did it

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At the end of the show. However, I'll take full responsibility in terms of I'll take responsibility.

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Clearly I Biffed it and fudged in terms of communicating what I was trying to get across Here is my position

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I would not support a bill that had that kind of partiality I would not support a bill that come in this hypothetical crazy situation

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That he throws that doesn't exist and I would not support a bill that in total Does that combines the criminal the criminalization aspect and the penalty aspect together?

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I would not support it if it showed partiality to the woman and I did say that repeatedly I would support this I would condemn

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That here's what I was trying to communicate. Okay With no sleep. All right.

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So again, it's probably my fault. I'll take responsibility for it. I won't even say probably it's my fault

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Here's what I was trying to communicate which we have got to get right abolitionists. We got to get right There's the category over here of criminalization.

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That's what we're all doing right now but I don't know any of us that are working on a category over here at the moment of the justice system because that's a

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Huge category with a lot of standards from God. And so if you say hey, we've got this abolitionist bill

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We've done an immediatism God's perfect justice. Uh -uh No, you haven't sorry and the category of criminalization you have he's pleased with that.

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He's honored by that No partiality, but there's still work to do over here, which means that we are

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Abolitionists where that whether you like it or not you and again, we gotta be at this I'm gonna be as straightforward as I can here

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We have to be very cautious with the cultic elements that can arise within movements like this in terms of the addiction to the

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Leadership the organization the brand the title the language the dirty words You know you hear the word incremental

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Incrementalism and you've been so taught to see, you know abomination abomination abomination

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That you don't even see the inconsistency in your thinking in terms of we are working in righteous increments

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We are working in just increments Not one abolitionist has put in the perfect comprehensive.

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God -pleasing bill in both categories That takes work

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It's like a mustard seed that grows into a tree You can be faithful with that mustard seed from start to finish

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But it's still growing slowly and it still has work to do And so what I was trying to communicate is there's two categories here and I told

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Samuel I said don't I said? I think that it's better to describe it as just versus unjust and all the bills that Samuel advocates for believes in says he would support are

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Inherently unjust in their own category and Samuel couldn't get away from that there.

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He's he's refuted on that It is partiality. He had no coherent response. That's the truth Okay, so Samuel didn't was not on the side of scripture of that or consistency or logic

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Okay, so when we talk about the issue over here this category of making it a crime in equal protection

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Their bills are just unjust they are displeasing to God. God hates those bills period

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Okay, what we're doing is abolitionists is saying in this category of criminalization Equal protection calling it murder right here.

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That is a bill that's pleasing to God. He's honored by that but guess what it is not comprehensively God's justice because there is an entire system over here of The the study of penology and penal sanctions and all the rest in biblical law

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There is a lot of work leading up and I'll say one final part to say think about it

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Think about this brothers and sisters and pass it to Bradley because he's gonna talk a lot about this year that this there at the conference

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Guess where else they support capital punishment Afghanistan They support a capital punishment in Afghanistan.

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And so do we say as Christians? Hey, that's pleasing to God capital punishment Hey, God says capital punishment that's available.

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And so hey, that's justice Really if you went as a missionary in Afghanistan and they were doing capital punishment like they do according to their standards

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Are you gonna say well, hey, it's capital punishment. I guess it's just no It isn't who's wielding the sword and what standard constrains their hand better not support it because the title capital

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Punishment is over it. God has standards that lead up to capital punishment. You can't just give it

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There's standards of witnesses standards of evidence standards of cross -examination in God's law.

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And so that all has to be fixed So again what I was trying to communicate and I clearly failed and I take full responsibility in that aspect

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Was that we as abolitionists need to think in categories? Criminalization versus penal sanctions if you're unwilling to do that, then just know just know you are being

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Inconsistent with every bill you support of abolition right now that doesn't deal with the penology

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Or in the penal sanctions aspect. We have to be able to think as Christians with righteous

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Increments and I don't mean partiality. I don't mean compromise in any way

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Yeah, someone Said and it's it's just it doesn't bother me.

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It's just like oh god help us. Someone said You know, when's when Samuel gonna debate a real abolitionist and I'm thinking to myself

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We look around each other and we go the time spent away from our families

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The months and months and months and months. My family has lost me

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Your families have lost you going to legislators across the country working on bills of abolition getting you protection getting vilified in the

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New York Times and in the Media and all the rest and the New York Times is just here on Saturday interview me. They think

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I'm an abolitionist for some reason It's odd, but so, you know, someone says something like, you know, why am

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I here's my point? Why are we eating our own? why right do we have this addiction to eating our own and not actually working towards unity and Actually saying hey, we actually agree on pretty much everything here

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How come we need to be in lockstep with every single?

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Word and position of a particular person leader or organization to be called truly abolitionist pure abolitionist

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Well, it's interesting to legislatures that I've been to either doing bills of our own that we've gotten in of abolition or supporting the faithful Pastors and men and women who have done in other states backing them up those legislators

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Oddly think that I am an abolitionist and I am but I'll say this right now for the record

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I have no interest in being a part of your club. I Have no interest in the brand. I'm not writing the title in my

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Facebook profile. I don't care about the t -shirts I don't care about the buttons. I don't care about the stickers.

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I don't care about the signs I care about being a Christian who stands on God's Word and upholds his principles.

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I'm not interested in putting the title Abolitionist on my name in any biography. I want to be known as a follower of Jesus who of course focuses on abolition but I think we need to get away from like this is our club our crew and you have have

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Done something that somehow means that you're no longer an abolitionist. I am Biblically defined and so I'll leave it.

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I'll start the conversation there Bradley All right Remind me like you and Sam you'll say he's in it.

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It's like, all right, just won't just like wait Where do I begin with everything you just said there's so much go for it.

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Shoot it. What you want brother? No, hey, I appreciate you clarifying, you know, I think that was still a remaining question

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Yeah, are that just something that's like wait, what did he say? Mm -hmm, and I appreciate you clarifying that Like hey if a bill, you know, he this imaginary bill, right that bans abortion, but still somehow

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Anyways, this bill that right it provides equal protection So called according to Sam, but then says a different penalty for the mother than for everybody else, you know

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Like no, that would be a bill bill partiality. We should vote against that God hates that you know, that's the line that he says you shall not do that and I appreciate you clarifying that and You know,

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I I knew that that was your position And I appreciate you turn the fire that for what he knows

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Yeah, but I think that is important that that's gotta be a line, you know If God says you shall not do something then guess what?

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We shouldn't do it fully agree fully agree So your talk though you and I had this conversation Bradley your talk that you're doing in October is an important one and you're talking

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Your talk about righteous Increments and again, that's a dirty word. It's it becomes a dirty word unfortunately

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Because we're so addicted to a brand We're so addicted to a mantra that we hear a word like increments and we associate it as the dirty word the abomination

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We're not arguing for incrementalism in terms of any partiality or any

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Injustice, but we are saying the reality is is that we are working in righteous increments

31:12

And so your talk is about that in October. Can you can you talk about that? Also, it looks like you're getting a little fuzzy here. So I hope we don't lose you but go ahead

31:19

Bradley Yeah, so my talk is gonna be our increments

31:26

Okay, and that's what I'm gonna be talking about and one of the points in there is gonna be that you know

31:32

Again, the whole yeah immediate system versus incrementalism. I don't think is the most helpful way of describing the discussion you know,

31:39

I think I think I think immediate system is a good term and that is that you know, if we are In We'll pause there for a second.

31:48

We'll pause there for a second Bradley because you just turned into max headroom. Yeah There a dead zone so It was entertaining

32:01

Not overly helpful for everybody Well, well While he clears up, but wait, we'll wait to you clear up You go ahead and speak to and I'll let you speak

32:10

So the situation I just think framing this discussion from the outset is so important which you tried

32:15

Very very hard to do to make sure that the categories were set and that we were titling this in the right way, right?

32:22

It's not immediatism versus incrementalism, it's abolitionist versus regulationist if you want to or biblical justice versus iniquitous decree like when we talk about just increments everybody realizes that because of our

32:39

Constraints and limitations not only as finite human beings and creatures But within the legal structure that we are working in there are necessarily going to be steps to get where we want to go

32:51

Mm -hmm, and there's no way around that and we're not arguing that any of those steps should be compromised or partiality, right?

32:57

But it can be a just right step, right? We're just saying within this given category that we can work in We cannot because of God's restraining hand, right?

33:09

He has not permitted us to take certain courses of action and submit certain pieces of legislation

33:15

That he forbids because he calls it unjust so that's the distinction is it's justice versus injustice and again in the discussion

33:23

Unfortunately, that wasn't dealt with by Samuel. No, it wasn't it wasn't and Bradley you're back now.

33:29

Go ahead brother Yeah, I was trying to say what I was trying to say is like I Think the term of mediatism can be helpful.

33:35

That is how do we deal with sin? We repent of it immediately, right? We don't say I'm gonna do it a little bit less right with its sin.

33:43

You cut it off You don't say I'm only gonna commit adultery on this this day of the week or that day that we know

33:48

It's like immediately we call for an immediate end of it Now, but I think incrementalism

33:54

I think is a confused can be very confusing term You know because everything is step -by -step everything takes place in increments we are we're a finite people

34:02

We're chronological one step at a time kind of thing. And so I think saying yes, like what is that just said we're against regulating it

34:11

Right, like like it's like it's an industry or like it's a business or like it's health care. We're against regulations like that We're against You know gradually.

34:21

Well, let's just gradually decrease it. Well that way that's not treating it like it's a sin That's not treating it like it's a crime

34:27

That's not how we treat true crime or true sin And so that's that's what we're opposed to and then obviously we're opposed to things that God says he hates unequal weights and measures showing partiality and judgment

34:40

Acquitting the the the innocent and condemning the righteous, you know, those are the things that God says he hates

34:46

He says we shall not do those things. Those are those are increments or those are Strategies that are not open to us.

34:53

God has taken those off the table and said you shall not do those Yeah, and that's what?

34:59

brother Samuel Was confronted with in a show and of course he had no real biblical response.

35:05

He Confused things at times. He made claims are just simply not true I try to be as gracious to him as a brother as I could like, you know at one point he was talking about Abolitionists never talk they talk about like the pro -life movement doesn't want to punish anybody and it's like I said to him very gently

35:20

I said who says that or something like that? I said, can you give me a name and of course he couldn't he made he made it up and Samuel made it up abolitionists.

35:28

I don't know any abolitionists ever said that they don't want to punish anybody. Of course they do They say punish the the abortion doctor.

35:33

That's why we say it's partiality, right? So sorry, I'm dying here with the allergies

35:39

But there was also and another element where Samuel just was incoherent in terms of talking about, you know

35:45

It's a form of equal protection. If you say that this person is punished Not exactly equal though, it's not equal protection to any degree

35:53

And so there's a number of points where Samuel just completely face planted in terms of that's not biblical. That's not consistent

35:58

That's not right. That's not true. That is partiality and so But can

36:04

I address this as well? I think this is a failure The what I did see and again, I didn't pay attention.

36:10

I only saw stuff people sent to me I don't pay any attention to that stuff I'm trying to be a faithful pastor of my family my church and the responsibilities

36:17

I have I don't spend time in the The seedy underground of the of the internet chat and chat room and your life is better for it

36:26

It is guys It's like I saw people that wanted me just to like crucify

36:33

Samuel Yeah, you know I'm saying you see you see people who are Christians and they believe in the abolition of abortion

36:40

They want equal protection They want to lay their lives down for them and they see a brother like Samuel who's telling you

36:45

I want to see everyone punished I want to see equal protection, but he's inconsistent over here.

36:51

We all know he is So do we crucify him? Do we hate him? Do we treat him terribly as a brother?

36:58

Do we not love him? And that's I'm sorry That's what I'm seeing and look you look at me.

37:05

You said Jeff. I think you failed there and then I go I think you're right. I think I miscommunicated. I wasn't clear.

37:11

I was muddy. It's my fault. I'll take full responsibility You're right about that. I tried to clear it up in the show

37:16

I'm clearing it up now, and I'm even saying look apparently on that one point of the episode. I Was not clear.

37:23

I take full responsibility for it, okay? So I'll take responsibility, but can

37:29

I ask you to take responsibility, too? If you are like actually secretly hating

37:34

Samuel if you want to see him crucified Like if you want to see him on a debate stage and mopped up, and I want to see my guy destroy this guy

37:45

What happened to us I thought we were it's a good point I thought I thought we were all about the the dignity of human beings and the value of human beings and and the

37:54

Sanctity of life and like every image bearer of God matters, but Samuel's not just an image bearer of God He's a saved image bearer of God Justified by the same blood you are and if right now over the last week

38:08

You've thought about Samuel say is the enemy and he needs to be taken down and destroyed You've lost your way

38:15

You've lost your way And if you wanted to see me slaughter Samuel say like people like you know he destroyed

38:22

Brandon Robertson The the gay LGBT theologian the guy leading people to hell is a false teacher that guy

38:30

Yeah, I treated him very differently very differently than I treat my brother in Christ Yeah, and so if you can't make those distinctions in your mind right now as an abolitionist

38:42

I'm gonna say to you you've lost your way if you think that the way we do this is

38:49

Slaughter one another and destroy one another I'm gonna see this guy crushed Samuel needs correction.

38:56

He needs to be helped He needs to be spoken to as a brother of course what he says needs to be confronted and confronted boldly

39:01

But if you're looking for Samuel say to just get taken down and destroyed And you you've been secretly hating him over the last week check your heart

39:09

All right be humble enough to say am I thinking about this right? Like do you you know it goes back to one of the problems that I saw early on We were quote abolitionists, but we weren't associated with a particular group

39:22

We were just a church who of course wanted equal protection wanted to save lives But one of the problems we saw early on is this vilification vilifying other actual believers in Jesus Christ who are inconsistent in some ways and Treating them as like well.

39:39

They're no longer the church They're no longer to be loved or respected as brothers and sisters in Christ like we just this is our crew

39:45

This is our crew. We need to grow it and If you don't get in lockstep, then um you're not a true

39:51

Christian You know you're not a faithful Christian Really? The abortion issue is one very serious significant issue in this world today it is one and we are messed up in a lot of different categories of Injustice in this world and the abortion issue is one and we really gonna say in this issue if someone's holding together some inconsistencies

40:11

Or they haven't thought through everything that we need to vilify them that they become our enemy that we treat them that way Let me just say again for the record if that's how you think

40:19

I have to live to be a part of your abolitionist Count me out I'm gonna continue to work in legislators across the country putting in bills of equal protection

40:29

I'm gonna continue to love the brethren. I'm gonna continue to be patient with brothers and sisters who were inconsistent I'm gonna try to convince them with love and graciousness and can and and the

40:39

Bible and I'm not going to try to find a way to shrink my circle and make sure everybody is in Lockstep with me in every way and repeats my mantras and all my points

40:51

And is is exactly like me in every way. And again, if you think I'm not an abolitionist, that's fine

40:58

I'm gonna continue to be one though across the country with all the bills that we're putting in trying to abolish abortion across the

41:04

Country, but I think we've lost our way and I'm gonna go ahead and officially say it I don't want anything to do with you

41:10

Whatsoever because you are a ticking time bomb One of the things that you've seen throughout history in different categories of thought as Christians is when

41:18

Christians start acting like you Their group eventually blows apart and splits up and splinters because once everybody starts realizing that our

41:28

Methodology is to vilify destroy in every if you don't get along with me in every point then the groups blow up They split apart because they miss are doing it to one another

41:38

I think we need to walk with wisdom and not just knowledge Wisdom and how we live with each other how we receive accusations how we're patient with one another how we're understanding with one another and We need to live that way as abolitionists

41:49

Let me just say abolitionists a lot of us have a very bad name in the

41:54

Christian community and listen Please it's not necessarily because of our doctrinal position.

42:01

Right? All right. It's because of our behavior Right, it's because of our character

42:06

It's because of how we live and if we want the light of the truths of abolition to break out into the world around us

42:14

We need to make sure that we're not soiling it with our own sinful unwise behavior and So there's my piece

42:22

Luke Yeah, I mean along that point This is something

42:28

I try to stress a lot just Those in our camp in the abolitionist camp we fight for the verse in Proverbs that says that God hates the hand that shed innocent blood but many neglect the

42:40

Few verses down where God calls in an abomination of those who so discord among the brethren And so I ask you which one of those verses is worse or sins is worse than the eyes of God but as far as far as going back to Sam and this is respectfully as I can like There's an issue within the church we talked about this often and it's the inability of Christians to think in categories

43:05

Yeah And you'd I thought you did a fantastic job of trying to make that point whether you felt like you did or not But it's just it's a problem in general in the church as Christians cannot think in categories and it wasn't just at the make -believe fantasy world law that Sam suggested it carried on into his definition of partiality and James and again, he was conflating crimes and sins.

43:32

They're not treating those in separate categories So I just wanted to say that just in general like it's it's a major problem in the church and guess where it starts pulpit

43:42

Christians can't think of categories because their pastors aren't teaching them how to think in categories and so so like anybody that saw that and is watching this now like we have to be able to do that and it in General and like not just in this in this conversation, but in general we need to be able to do that It's a major issue.

43:58

So I just want to make that point Yeah Bradley I'll let you speak some final words here, and then we'll let you go.

44:06

I appreciate it Couple things one is

44:11

I think that yeah I mean We do need to reform the entire like death penalty process and the witnesses and judges and the criminal procedure and all that You know, why do we pick this one?

44:25

Why not reform the death penalty stuff before at before to the equal protection side of it because the likelihood of someone getting the death penalty

44:33

For violating an abolition bill for the foreseeable future is a zero Okay, so I mean it's very close to zero.

44:41

Although again someone rightfully tried rightfully rightful procedures You know committing a murder with malice before thought rightfully convicted.

44:49

Yes should get the death penalty But I think again we're taking that this is that this is the main issue

44:57

So we're dealing with it first and then we'll come back for another one. And those are righteous steps We'll take it to do those things one at a time is perfectly fine

45:05

Here's what I would call really I think this is something for Samuel say is for something for all abolitionists

45:10

I would just encourage everybody to meditate on this passage of Scripture because it touches on Almost everything that we've discussed here and everything you've discussed with Samuel And that is

45:21

Leviticus 19 15 through 18 Let me just read this it says

45:28

This this is God's Word. This is what God says right here. He says you shall do no injustice in court

45:37

You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor?

45:44

You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people and you shall not stand up against the life of your neighbor

45:51

I am the Lord you shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your brother

45:58

Lest you incur sin because of him you shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people

46:05

But you shall love your neighbor Neighbor as yourself. I am the

46:10

Lord Amen Thank You Bradley One more time for everyone who just jumped in what's happening on October October one -day conference in Dallas Early bird pricing ends

46:24

May 31st So go ahead and sign up now and you get to come here by equipping the Saints to abolish abortion from Jeff Durbin Josh by Tom Askell dusty Deavers Brett bag it

46:37

Phil George Virgil Walker Bradley Pierce. We hope to see you there Alright website FAA not life

46:44

FAA not life Bradley. Thank you for making time for us I know you're super busy canceled flight and all that stuff and and super handsome.

46:51

And yeah, always always handsome Bradley Okay, see

46:56

Brad bless you, all right, so as Bradley's getting off we are actually gonna have on mr.

47:02

Green in a moment here. He is one of the many people who are

47:10

Being dealt with right now with a tyrannical justice system you guys may have heard about the people who were

47:21

Standing in the way of abortion clinics to try to preserve lives and Want to say as we get to this discussion

47:29

Our position on this has been clear for many many years though We disagree with the methodology of the rescue movement of you know

47:37

Blocking abortion mill doors and those sorts of things. We don't think it's effective. We don't think that's it's

47:45

Ultimately wise and what's happening here is is an indication of what we were getting at it'll take you off the mission field

47:52

Unnecessarily, you can do better. We think outside of abortion mills By by following the law and in still saving lives

47:59

I mean if you stand in front of an abortion mill front door, they're gonna bring the girls through the back door That's what they've done historically So we don't agree with the methodology of the rescue movement and what they've done, however

48:10

We believe that God is still glorified in the lives of these Christians who have given up so much to preserve the lives of the

48:16

Preborn and so we are Standing with them prayerfully. We do think this is tyranny. We do think what's happening to them is evil

48:23

It is unjust and we know that God is pleased in terms of their heart and what they've tried to do

48:30

And so we're gonna have mr. Green on Mr. Green is Actually Gabe our tech right now in the tech room.

48:36

It's it's Gabe's dad So Gabe works for us apology to studios and this is his dad So as he gets on as Gabe is getting him on I want to just add some final thoughts here

48:48

Well, I mean I thought you did you want to say I think you said something when he said something about partiality that you said You know that we need to talk about that.

48:53

I'm not sure what that was there was just certain fleshing out of of that topic because it seems like It just needs to be

49:02

Hashed out more. Yeah, we know what we mean when we talk about these things You can't judge by Subjective external factors when you're considering elements of justice or matters of justice

49:13

You have to judge by conduct of what someone has done And I think there were certain points in that discussion that were good for fleshing that out because as Luke mentioned

49:23

Some of the distinctions that he was making between like intention. Yeah an action Yeah, I don't think that flies but I think there were good questions that need to be answered as far as Are you saying that you're showing partiality when?

49:37

The weaker more vulnerable party is exposed and you are prioritizing their safety over another party

49:44

Say is that an example of partiality? Are you being? Partial showing injustice to one, you know based on your own judgment your understanding

49:52

I think so some of those discussions are good to have and why we're talking about Different things there.

49:59

I mean what they're both still based on principle. Yeah, right and the preservation of innocent life I think that's what it comes down to but it would just be interesting to explore some of that maybe a different time even and So again,

50:09

I think as we get into this discussion in a moment here as he's getting on What I was trying to do was

50:17

Actually offer a corrective in Samuel's thinking in terms of quote incrementalism versus immediatism

50:24

I was trying to actually get the focus on the right thing Yeah, because I don't think

50:29

Samuel understood and in doing that I was also trying to offer a corrective and a help to us as abolitionists if people spot this inconsistency

50:38

They are going to use it against you Don't give it to them and the reason why they would have it is because we talk about Incrementalism and immediatism in a way that we don't really mean it's a fiction, right?

50:50

It's not in the real world because there are different categories and people are like all uses categories as an excuse.

50:56

I'm sorry it is Category of criminalization and the definition of what is a crime.

51:02

It's convenient, right? Yeah, it's convenient a definition of what's a crime versus how it's punished and all

51:08

I would challenge you to do is if you think I'm making this up and if you think I'm not really a theonomist I would challenge you to actually read the law of God and read where something is

51:17

Called a sin or called a sin and a crime and then there's entire pages dedicated to the specifics of well

51:24

Here's how you would punish in this specific category of this crime Like even I brought I tried to do it as quick as I could and apparently some abolitionists don't know this

51:32

I tried it as quick as I could and try to say like as an example with theft Stealing is a sin, but it's also a crime according to God's law

51:41

And then you have the explanation in God's law of well if it's like a person -to -person theft, right?

51:48

It's it's paid back like this, but if it has to do with some someone's business operations well it has to be paid back in a different way because you have the loss of Time and business and money and all the rest of that stuff and and so it's paid back at a different thing

52:01

And so there's even different answers for the justice required for different types of theft and in the same way you have

52:09

Descriptions of someone has their life taken and you have examples of well if it's taken like in this way

52:16

And it really wasn't on purpose Here's the way that's dealt with and it was taken in this way and there was malice of forethought well, this is how you would deal with it in this way, and so there's all these different ways in the category of Penal sanctions how it's punished scripture says and here's how you deal with it

52:33

So what I was trying to say is that as an abolitionist I can think in those categories of like righteous increment

52:41

Criminalization equal protection no partiality God's pleased with that He smiles down on that, but we've got to grapple with the fact that we are putting him into an

52:49

American justice system That is so so so flawed It's gonna take work.

52:56

You're not gonna do it tonight. Yeah, okay, and look I got an example of Two cases

53:02

I sat in in the last 10 years of my life where I sat in and watched people I love get mauled mauled

53:10

By the justice system. They weren't there to have their case heard It didn't matter the moment they were accused from start to finish.

53:19

It was a question of not are you innocent or guilty? It was a question of how bad are we gonna punish you? It was literally like that in both cases the whole way through There were sanctions given to them from the accusation all the way to the end

53:31

They were treated like they were the criminal like they were guilty It didn't matter what they were what was being testified because the judge had already decided that you are guilty

53:40

Literally through the trial was it was literally referring to the person in that way and it was like wait the trials not done yet Yeah, you're not supposed to have given a verdict yet Like what's going on good example of partiality and maybe that's the problem is that you haven't done that I'll just be gracious to you.

53:54

Maybe the reason you've reacted the way you have is you have never done that You've never sat in a courtroom during a trial where you've seen the

54:02

American court system look like that It is Heartbreaking to see that sort of a thing.

54:07

It is Astonishing you sit there and you go. This is unbelievable. Someone should call the news Right. Someone should let people know that this is happening

54:15

The judges are treating people who are accused the whole way through it as though they're guilty and it's not innocent until proven guilty The evidence didn't matter the witnesses didn't matter.

54:22

It didn't matter. It was just trying to find out how bad are we gonna punish you? That's exactly how it went the whole way and maybe it's because I've sat in that that I understand the difference between a penal sanction and a corrupt court system and Criminalization and establishing justice for the pre -born, but we still have to do

54:43

We still have to do work in the area of punishing the crime in a way that is pleasing to God That is a different category altogether

54:51

And so that's what I was trying to offer as a corrective in terms of immediatism versus incrementalism is there has to be a just Increments it has to be a just category increments.

55:00

And so hopefully that's understandable I take full responsibility with my absolute sleeplessness and exhaustion that I Wasn't clear.

55:09

I was muddy at a point now, you know now, you know, and so hopefully I'll be allowed back in your club

55:15

Not really Not really. Yeah All right, everybody, here we go.

55:21

We're back had a little break there and all this to get fixed in post We'll do it live So we're talking to Denny green right now.

55:31

Denny is one of how many Denny? In Nashville, there was ten of us ten.

55:38

Okay, and in DC Nine nine. Okay, so you may have heard the news stories of read or read about the news stories about the

55:47

Christians who stood outside of the abortion mills and Who are right now in a justice system that is now just simply punishing them

55:57

So Denny, could you explain to everybody what happened and where you're at right now? Sure.

56:03

Well, what happened was we had what's known as a rescue called a rescue in Mount Juliet, Tennessee in March of 21 and where a

56:16

Bunch of Christians went into the facility that housed an abortion clinic and in the hallway

56:22

Worshipped saying prayed as our counselors Spoke with women who would be coming to the abortion clinic and it stayed closed for about two hours and the the police ended up placing us under arrest and at this point

56:41

We have been convicted and we're awaiting sentencing July 2nd and 3rd and We'll see what happens.

56:50

But right now we're charged with violating face and also a Charge, which is crazy.

56:56

It's from the 1870s, I believe Conspiracy against rights or conspiracy against civil rights.

57:04

There was a law passed to address the

57:09

KKK Discriminating against and doing things to get freed African -americans goodness gracious Like abortion first ever exactly.

57:20

That's amazing Denny Well, first of all, we are praying for your brother and we're so sorry. This is happening to you Can you explain everybody what the face act is?

57:28

What is that? freedom to access clinic entrances act and that was passed to believe in 94 and under the

57:35

Clinton administration and If you remember back in the 80s and early 90s, they were close to 80 -90 ,000 arrests.

57:44

It was much larger than the whole civil rights movement of Believers going to the doors of abortion clinics and prayerfully sitting down Peacefully praying and shutting clinics down Face was passed to address that to make it a serious crime and that pretty much crushed the arm

58:07

Rescue movement, right not completely but it was it was tough. Yeah Yeah, John Piper was part of that and he was arrested and I think 11 times wasn't

58:16

James arrested Yeah, and pastor James was as well. Isn't it actually a racketeering law? Isn't that technically what it is the face?

58:23

I will yeah Know that there was also Rico. Oh, yeah, so that's what I had been charged with that.

58:29

But yes Gotcha. All right So I did see a couple articles come down of some of the

58:38

Sentencing is happening. People are getting five years and more Denny. Do you know what you're facing?

58:45

Facing up to ten and a half years The with the

58:50

DC group there were a different group than us led differently Completely only one individual

58:57

Was also in our group. She's a believer Heather. I don't he and I'm They were charged

59:06

The same as us But they were said to be violent only because a clinic worker tripped and fell or or something like that.

59:13

They were not violent But because that happened they held them since last August.

59:18

They've been locked up for nine months We're just sentenced and they'll complete their sentences With us

59:25

I would you never know you really don't know but it is a liberal judge. She was a belief.

59:31

She was a Clinton appointee She was clearly during the trial made it known that she was against us didn't like what we stood for But we didn't have that thing over a head of so -called violence

59:44

So, um, hopefully our sentences all we can do is hope would be less than the

59:51

DC Sentences. We do know that the Justice Department Requested or what was the word they put in a

01:00:01

We get it right They Put in a sentencing guidelines.

01:00:10

They were requesting anywhere from six and a half years two years to six and a half years for the

01:00:16

DC people I don't know how that'll, you know, work its way over to us

01:00:23

Nashville. All right. So what's the date of sentencing brother? July 2nd and 3rd,

01:00:28

July 2nd and 3rd. Okay. How can we be praying for you Denny? Honestly, just pray that the father would be glorified in a big way

01:00:38

We would hope That through what's happening More light is shined on child sacrifice and more people will be aware of what's going on not as concerned about us

01:00:50

Individually but for the cause itself and that God would receive glory and of course, we don't want to go to prison

01:00:57

We all have families but um Pray that we'll have short sentences or knows we won't have to do prison time

01:01:04

But ultimately the guy would be glorified. Honestly, that's that's what I would ask. Absolutely brother

01:01:09

Denny. How many kids you have? 13 13 kids how many grandkids? 13 13 and 13 right on Well, we're praying for you brother and We're grateful for your commitment and passion to Want to glorify

01:01:26

God to preach the gospel and to to highlight the evil of child sacrifice

01:01:31

We know that God is pleased with what you've put forth and and the reason that you've done what you're doing

01:01:38

So we're grateful for you, brother You know, thank you. Thank you very much, Jenny That's a weighty way to end that yeah.

01:01:47

Yeah So Listen, if you guys would make sure you pray for Denny and the other brothers and sisters who are involved right now with the

01:01:56

Nashville situation You know, whatever disagreements are had in terms of methodology you have brothers and sisters in Christ who have been trying desperately to save lives and to lay their lives down for the cause of Christ and for the sake of another and Right now you have these

01:02:13

Christians suffering under a brutal brutal justice system And there's there's another example right there. Then he said it he's got a judge that's supposed to be impartial yeah, and she's just bringing her worldview her presuppositions and her position right there into the courtroom and and and acting in that way and So it kind of goes with and I don't want to really make this about that discussion

01:02:33

We just have it goes with that discussion that I was talking about This system over here.

01:02:38

Our justice system is unbiblical Yeah, it is unjust it is wrong and I what

01:02:45

Denny said there I mean I saw the very same thing same thing in one of the trials. It was heart -wrenching to witness it to see the female judge

01:02:53

Act the whole way through this trial Like this person was guilty and treated him though as though they were guilty talked to them like they were a criminal the entire way through the trial

01:03:03

It was astonishing. It was like this really happens. Yeah, it happens like this This is going on in our justice system and it is and so again you know

01:03:15

Abolition is so important. It's vital, but it's not the only thing It's not the only thing like On the chart of things that Christ is putting under his feet and the church has to engage in there's so much more and so I think we need to be able to think as we do in categories and And and let's let's leave it there for today

01:03:38

Let's not worry about this. This is an extra episode. So unless you want to no, no, we're good We've been doing this for now three hours now

01:03:47

Yes, yeah, my brain's broken a good anyways a good bit. All right, everyone we're grateful for all of you and and thankful for all of your love for your support and And hopefully yeah today.

01:03:58

I was very direct and said some, you know, pretty strong things Hopefully you hear my heart. It's not coming from a place of pride or arrogance

01:04:06

I don't care to be the right one in the discussion of the debate I just want to be faithful to Jesus, but hopefully you'll hear from me that I think we all need to be willing to be

01:04:15

Corrected and put spotlights on us where we may have weaknesses and where I have them I want to confess and so some of you who heard the discussion you heard the whole discussion you were like Yeah, I was right on to this one point

01:04:26

Full confession. I was muddy there unclear. And so I want to take responsibility for that and say yeah

01:04:33

Totally totally needed to be more clear on that. Hopefully you've heard it today But I think that all of us need to also look at ourselves

01:04:39

As a as a quote -unquote movement and say like where are our flaws? Where are we falling off?

01:04:45

Where are we misbehaving? Where are we unwise and could we be in need of some correction, right?

01:04:53

I Hate to see and I want no part in it. The the constant move towards vilifying other

01:05:00

Christians We believe it with that And this isn't about us

01:05:05

But just as an example in terms of like the the need to vilify and cut people off and cancel people like it's somehow made

01:05:11

Its way cancel culture has made its way into the abolition movement you know With regard to the discussion with Samuel say

01:05:20

We've invested our lives in this ministry I Mean, I can't even tell you how many countless hours and how many countless hours without pay

01:05:29

And how many countless hours of like losing time with our families, I mean

01:05:34

I there was one year we had four months Four months away from family our team did four whole months away from family

01:05:42

Our family lost us that year for four whole months. That was one year One year of travel, right?

01:05:48

We've sacrificed our lives to go around the world to save lives and set up stuff in Northern Ireland The Republic of Ireland Scotland around the world

01:05:55

Germany Lives are being saved now all over Northern Ireland and the

01:06:01

Republic of Ireland and all over the US It's happening countries around the world Tens of thousands of babies have been saved through the you know, just this what the work of this one ministry

01:06:11

There's so many other faithful ministries out there. They're doing so much good work as well, but we're just one This is like one ministry. So like in terms of us our labor and everything else we're putting forward for Christ We're not doing it for glory or a name.

01:06:22

We just want to save these children wanted to end We want to be done with it wipe our hands of it say, okay stop. Okay. I don't want to talk about this anymore

01:06:27

I don't want to raise another dollar I just want that these children's lives be protected and Then going across the country to put in bills of abolition and we're helping other guys to do the same and saying how can we help?

01:06:36

You we buy you camera gear. Can we give you money? Can we support you? Can we put this out? What can we do? and then for for people to say in response to a

01:06:49

Discussion that did go off the rails a few times. They got became kind of chaotic at points like wait, you made ten points

01:06:55

Let me just at least respond to one of them To say you're not post mill and you're not theonomic and you're not an abolitionist and like and to say say let's cancel you and like You're done with you.

01:07:05

You're now an enemy of the abolitionist movement I want to say I'm gonna trust God and the one who judges righteously and in this case

01:07:13

And I just thank God that I've been able to be a part of we've been able to part of saving even just one baby From death.

01:07:18

I'm thankful to God for that but you know hear my heart on this just transparently if You're gonna vilify a ministry and brothers who have sacrificed their lives and their families and given so much up Because someone doesn't get in lockstep with you or you don't even want to have the moment to say like well

01:07:39

Give him a chance to clarify Let's give him a chance to clarify like like let's assume the best about him and and maybe say can you clarify that?

01:07:46

Can you help us understand that are you willing to discuss that a little more like that's the way to approach it But if it just goes straight from you know, cut the throat take their legs off Cancel them not an abolitionist not a post -millennium.

01:07:58

It's not a Calvinist not a whatever like, you know, we we got problems We got real problems and can

01:08:04

I say, you know as a ministry? That spends so much time ministering to the cults

01:08:10

Like Apologia Studios is it's one of the major parts of what we do I mean look through hundreds and hundreds of hours of evangelism to all these different cults and we've got a show called cultish and we're

01:08:20

Training and equipping churches out of ministries of the cults and all the rest. I Spent a great deal of my life studying the cults their history their formation their tactics their language

01:08:31

Their sociological manipulation and I'm just gonna say it and I don't care if you like it. I don't care if you like it.

01:08:38

I see elements of cultic Behavior happening within the abolitionist movement now,

01:08:47

I would have no integrity if I didn't just come out and say it The cultic behavior that it demands of people in the movement in the group get in lockstep with the leader

01:08:58

Say what he says use his words follow the charts follow the the the confession right in this way

01:09:07

And if you if you get locked if you get out of lockstep with the leader of the organization you're vilified you're canceled you're

01:09:14

Ostracized and it's it's almost immediate Right, like the sociological manipulation of the cults goes into love bomb love bomb love bomb

01:09:21

You're part of the group love bomb love bomb love bomb and you are ever even keel Everything's right because you're in lockstep with everybody.

01:09:27

You're following the order and you're not questioning. You're not challenging You're you're saying all the right things and then what happens is as soon as one person

01:09:34

Gets out of step in a little way or whatever the case may be says something questions challenges Challenges the some of the some of the doctrine and says

01:09:42

I don't think that's right. I think it's kind of inconsistent Everyone goes cancel cut them off lose support.

01:09:48

That's cultic behavior You see it in the cults. I've spent my life ministering to the cults and that's why

01:09:55

I want to say when I see Cultic behavior happening within the abolitionist movement in terms of how we deal with one another

01:10:04

I'm troubled and you know many years ago pastor James remember the famous one where James was talking about the the reform club

01:10:12

It's famous clip I'll have to find it he's like, oh he's talking with a reform club He's talking he says I don't want to he says

01:10:18

I believe in reform theology. I'm a Calvinist I believe this is central to describing the true grace of God and the sovereign will of God and salvation kind of a thing

01:10:26

He's like, but I'm tired of the reform club Like we eat our own we destroy one another and he's like and and if and if I need to be like that I don't

01:10:33

I don't want to be part of your club and That's how I feel about this whole situation with the abolitionist movement at this point in my life

01:10:42

I'm an abolitionist. I want equal protection. I want no partiality. I want God's justice. I'm a theonomist.

01:10:47

That's what you would get. Okay But in terms of being associated with the movement if it continues to go the direction it's going.

01:10:55

I don't want an association. I Don't I'll continue to be a Christian who believes all the same things

01:11:00

But if there's gonna if there's gonna be a requirement for me to behave in this way and to act

01:11:06

Like this to be considered a pure and undefiled abolitionist then no, thanks

01:11:12

I don't want to abuse somebody like Samuel say I don't want to abuse somebody like Douglas Wilson Those are faithful brothers and I want to treat him as brothers.

01:11:21

I want to disagree with him strongly I'm gonna refute their position and we've done that with Doug our friend

01:11:27

Doug. We've done shows refuting Doug's position Challenge Doug to public debate on this shows But I'm still gonna eat with Doug in his house

01:11:35

I'm so no we're gonna rejoice with Doug at his church in worship listening to his sermons, which I have

01:11:41

I'm still gonna sit there cringing when they're baptizing babies, right? But I love them and I strongly disagree with them

01:11:48

But I'm still gonna rejoice in the fellowship and the unity we have in Christ And I'm not gonna vilify him and treat him like he's a demon

01:11:56

Nope, and if it's I'm gonna say officially from end of motion now I'm the head of in motion now and I have full confidence I have permission to say this if we are required to misbehave and be unwise and act unrighteous and ungodly

01:12:07

And work on our lives into division and slander to be part of the abolitionist movement Consider this episode our exit

01:12:16

All right. We'll turn our cards in you have my permission. Yeah, I Don't want any association as a

01:12:22

Christian with a movement. That's known for misbehaving according to God's standards And if you were gonna ask me to vilify and hate other

01:12:30

Christians who are inconsistent in some ways And we can engage with them and work with them if you're gonna ask me to vilify and hate them

01:12:39

Then consider this my resignation It's not really my resignation because I hope that we're gonna be corrected here all of us where we need correction

01:12:45

It's a big point though However strong your doctrine is if it's contradicted by the way that you live then it's not something you really believe.

01:12:54

Yeah One of the things we've been talking about an apology a church and I'm not the master of this

01:12:59

I'm not the expert I don't have all things together. I'm still being sanctified ask this guy But we have been talking a lot of apology a church on Sunday And it's been an honor and such a privilege to go through it as a pastor because it's been changing me so much as I Go through it

01:13:14

The difference in biblical theology between Knowledge and wisdom

01:13:21

Right, you can know so dang much Yeah, and be able to articulate so dang much and you can still be a fool

01:13:31

Right, you could still be an absolute fool a knowledgeable fool a knowledgeable fool and so we've got to learn and And put it to death on ourselves where we find it

01:13:42

I need to find it on myself I'm a work in progress. I don't have it all together. I'm not the best speaker. I'm not the best communicator

01:13:49

I'm not the best debater. I'm just trying to fight for the glory of God and preach the gospel. That's it I'm not calling myself the leader or the best.

01:13:55

I have no desire I don't want my name to be highlighted as anything I want Jesus to be glorified his name to be glorified and I want this to be over But where we have problems we got to be corrected and what

01:14:04

I see right now in the abolitionist movement I'm gonna say it clearly. I see a heck of a lot of knowledgeable fools

01:14:10

People that know a whole lot about God the gospel abolition and I wouldn't even want to eat dinner with them

01:14:18

Because they are abusive mean -spirited They slander they lie. They're working on constant controversy and constant going after other people

01:14:28

Is that how we're supposed to live to be pure abolitionists? And again consider this my resignation I don't want to live that way and I hope you don't either and so take this as a correction or don't

01:14:42

Call me a demon. I'm still gonna be fighting for the lives of these pre -born in the same way and And by the way, hopefully that New York Times things goes up soon

01:14:52

It was interesting conversation. I'll just end with this quickly. They they wanted to talk to us as a baseline

01:14:57

They're doing this their their show their weekly show podcast or whatever it is They're doing they're basically talking about how the pro -life

01:15:03

Establishment doesn't seem to know what they want or where they're going and they're like we wanted to interview you guys because you guys are Abolitionists you have the same message the same methodology before Row and then after row and they said so you're the baseline you're not changing

01:15:15

You're not compromising you have the same message and they're like and we noticed and they're not Christians They're like that all these pro -life organizations don't seem to know what they want or where they're going

01:15:23

They're all like changing and like now becoming more Center because of Trump and Carrie Lake and all the rest and they were like but you

01:15:28

Guys have the same message the same methodology before and after and I was like, well, thank God for that Thank God for that.

01:15:35

So hopefully that's coming soon as well guys, so people will see that For sure. It is compliment. So bear.

01:15:40

Thanks. Peace out everyone. I'm the ninja and that is con over later Catch you next time guys. This is the

01:16:03

Academy I am Eli Ayala of revealed apologetics and I will be bringing a six -part series on Presuppositional apologetics.

01:16:11

What is this called the apology Academy? It's just called the Academy. Okay What's up, everybody?

01:16:16

My name is pastor Jeff Durbin and you're watching collision today I'm gonna be interacting with an atheist on tik -tok.

01:16:23

So here we go unsupervised and unhinged Welcome back to cultist the aftermath