Pastor vs Atheists at Capitol (Epic)

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00:12

What I'm saying about my own... Did you say that you don't accept faith?

00:21

That's correct. How do you know the future is going to be like the past? Didn't say that it was.

00:27

So you believe that... Well, I thought you said you believe in science. I accept science.

00:33

So all science is based upon the principle of induction, that the future will be like the past. But you just said you don't know the future will be like the past, so you've just done away with all science.

00:43

No, I said I don't believe. If somebody wants to reason that some force in motion will continue to operate as it has in the past,

00:56

I will accept that as a premise, but observation will show us whether that's true or not.

01:01

So do you have confidence the future will be like the past? Give me an example. Well, for example, right now you're standing here.

01:09

You don't believe right now that you're going to float away to the ceiling, do you? No, I don't. So you believe gravity is going to hold you down the next five seconds like it always has?

01:18

Please stop using the word belief in reference to me. I'm not a believer. Do you have confidence?

01:25

I expect that gravity will continue to operate for five minutes. Okay, that's fine.

01:31

So a better word than you have confidence that gravity will hold you down. I have an expectation that it will.

01:37

So you have some confidence. I could assign some confidence level to it. Right, so confidence is from the

01:43

Latin. It means confide, with faith. So you are with faith with regard to gravity. He's playing word games here.

01:50

It's not a word game. It's how the word works. It's etymology of the word.

01:55

I said expectation, and you wanted to apply some... So you live by faith that the future will be like the past, but you don't know.

02:04

You do live by faith. Okay, so you mentioned reason and logic a moment ago, correct?

02:11

Evidence. Well, all evidence is based upon induction and logic, correct?

02:18

Induction and logic. All evidence requires induction and logic, that the future will be like the past, and that the laws of logic are immaterial, universal, that they are invariant, they're unchanging.

02:30

So I take it that you're an atheist. I am an atheist. Okay. But about the invariance of the physical laws, that may not be the case.

02:39

There's some evidence that some physical laws may have changed. So you've done away with all science, then, because science is dependent upon induction.

02:47

No, I'm repeating what some scientists have investigated. So you don't know the future will be like the past.

02:56

I don't know that the future will be like the past. Fantastic. So you've done away with all science according to your worldview. Science is dependent upon induction.

03:03

You can talk to Bertrand Russell, obviously he's dead now. You can read his books, Problems in Philosophy. David Hume, Scottish skeptic.

03:10

All science is based upon induction. You just did away with it. Tell me about the science of your faith and belief in God.

03:16

What's the science of— Sure, I can explain to you how the— The science of— Well, I'll explain.

03:22

—the resurrection from the dead. Well— The science of healing lepers with— Sir, sir, you don't have any problem with lepers being healed or with people rising from the dead.

03:32

You just said you don't know the future will be like the past. So in your universe, anything is possible.

03:38

You have no basis to complain about the Christian worldview and people rising from the dead, because in your worldview, anything's possible.

03:45

In my worldview, people rising from the dead is a strange thing, because God is a sovereign

03:50

God who imposes uniformity upon creation. Science makes sense in my worldview, not in yours.

03:57

That's not— So back to logic. On what basis as an atheist—I imagine you're a materialist.

04:02

You believe all that exists is the material universe. On what basis are you appealing to immaterial universal laws like laws of logic?

04:10

According to your worldview, on what basis? The fact that they work.

04:16

So your answer as an atheist is just because? What if I did that to you? So why do you believe in God?

04:22

Just because. Would you accept that? No, that's not what I said. You said— Words in my mouth. They just work.

04:28

Just because? It's observable. What's observable? Laws of logic? Can we taste the laws of logic?

04:34

Where have you seen a law of logic, sir? It's observable that what we call the law of gravity works.

04:41

We're talking not about—we're not talking about the physical laws like gravity. We were talking about the laws of logic, which are conceptual in nature.

04:50

This is all sophistry. No, sir, it's not sophistry. You invoked reason. I can observe that gravity—

04:56

Sir, that's a physical law. We're talking about not sophistry. You invoked reason.

05:02

Yes. You invoked it. So I'm asking you, according to your atheistic perspective, how do you justify and appeal to immaterial, universal, unchanging laws like the laws of logic?

05:15

I have an answer from my worldview, and I'm asking an atheist who invoked reason. I want evidence.

05:22

Sir, in order to believe evidence is meaningful, laws of logic have to be meaningful, and they must exist.

05:29

So help me to understand from an atheistic perspective how you justify appeals to universal laws like laws of logic.

05:38

I justify the appeal to universal laws like—well, I don't know if logic is even universal, but—

05:45

Wait a minute. You've got to help me there. Did you just say that you don't believe that logic is universal? I want you to define what you mean by universal.

05:54

Universal would mean true at all times, everywhere. So is a law of non -contradiction necessary in Iceland and here in Oklahoma right now?

06:05

Explain the law of non -contradiction. Sir, you invoked reason, and the very basis of reason would be the law of non -contradiction as a start, right?

06:15

The law of non -contradiction would be the very foundation of the laws of logic or reason. It cannot be a—something cannot be a and not a at the same time and in the same way, right?

06:27

So the law of non -contradiction forms the very basis of reason. So I'm asking you if that law of non -contradiction is true in Iceland and in Oklahoma City.

06:40

That sounds reasonable. I'll accept that. So, according to an atheistic perspective, where you believe you evolved from—

06:47

I don't believe. I'm not using that term. Well, your perspective is that human beings evolved from fish to ultimately down -the -line philosophers.

06:56

Yes, there is physical evidence that— So your ancestors were bacteria. There is physical evidence that that happened.

07:03

Sir, in order to have evidence, you have to have science. You've thrown that away. In order to have evidence, you have to have reason.

07:08

You've thrown that away. That's not true. So I'm asking you on what basis ought the descendant of fish, me and you, appeal to universal laws like the law of non -contradiction?

07:21

If what's happening in your brain right now is simple neurological responses and chemical reactions, why is that necessary for me to hold to what's happening in your brain?

07:32

You and I don't share the same brain, sir. And what you have are chemical responses happening right now as an atheist.

07:39

That's not my worldview. That's not—that's all that's fundamentally going on. So I'm asking an atheist who believes he's a descendant of bacteria why he believes the laws of logic are necessary.

07:50

I accept some laws of logic because the results of scientific investigation are pragmatic.

08:00

They're empirical. They— You understand? You just said—you just said something that contradicted. Pragmatic and empirical?

08:07

Yes. So is it merely conventional and that it works, or is it objective? Is the laws of logic you're appealing to now, are they objective?

08:15

Are they true outside of your own experience, or is it just something human beings created? I'm not certain about that.

08:24

It might be something that human beings created. Okay, so let's say that you have a tribe somewhere in the world.

08:31

They have a different convention of laws of logic, and they say you can go ahead and contradict yourself. Is it okay to do that?

08:38

Give me an example. I don't understand what you're saying. Well, so you're the descendant of bacteria. I'm the descendant of bacteria, right?

08:44

But let's say that there's a different tribe of descendants of bacteria somewhere in the world, and they create their own system of laws of logic where they say, go ahead and contradict yourself.

08:53

That's perfectly acceptable. Is that okay? They think it is. Christians, for instance.

08:59

Is it reasonable for that tribe to say that? I don't think it's reasonable, but— So laws of logic are objective.

09:05

It's not merely conventional. We don't just make it up. So my question to you is this.

09:10

According to an atheist and materialist worldview, where are the laws of logic? Where can

09:15

I find them? They're the product of our mind's function.

09:21

So human beings just make them up? Yes. Okay, so why are you criticizing other bags of biological stuff for what they chemically fizz?

09:31

If human beings just make it up, as you say, then your worldview is now this. Human beings invent logic and just get creative.

09:38

There is no basis to believe in the uniformity of nature, so there's no more science. And so you have no basis for reason or for science, according to an atheistic perspective.

09:50

So on what basis, then, are you here complaining about anything ethically at all? You don't have a right to legislate your religion.

10:00

As a bag of biological stuff? Yes. So I'm the descendant of bacteria, and you're telling me what

10:06

I ought not do in this purposeless universe. That's correct. Well, you're doing the same thing. No, I don't believe that.

10:12

I don't share your worldview. I believe in a transcendent God whose character is the very basis of justice and morality.

10:21

You guys believe that you're descendants of fish in a purposeless universe. So on what basis are you complaining about anything ethically at all?

10:31

You assert that we have rights, and the Constitution... Is it absolutely wrong? ...gives our rights, and you do not have a right to enforce your religion through legislation...

10:43

Who says? You're the descendant... Sir, no, the Constitution does not say that.

10:49

The Constitution makes no claim that there should be no God in states.

10:55

It sure as hell does. No, it does not. The Establishment Clause says. No, what was the Establishment Clause about? What was the context of it?

11:02

The Constitution shall not endorse any religion of religion. No, that is absolutely not the context. That's where you're wrong. The colonies...

11:08

No, you guys don't know your history. The colonies, when that was established, had all established in their own states, their own denominations.

11:16

They invoked the name of the triune God of Scripture. What they were saying when they talked about no establishment of religion is that Congress shall not make an establishment of religion like the

11:27

Church of England, the Church of Scotland, but it had nothing to do with keeping God out of states.

11:32

You don't know your history. Back to my question. Why are you complaining about anything ethically at all?

11:39

You're the result of evolutionary processes that didn't have you in mind, and here you are decrying things ethically when you believe there's no absolutes.

11:48

There's got to be two or three things. You don't believe there's any absolutes, sir. I accept that the

11:54

Constitution is the absolute law of the land, and the Constitution as interpreted by the

11:59

Supreme Court... So the Supreme Court once interpreted that blacks were not persons, they were property.

12:07

Do you agree with them? I don't agree with them. Why? Because...

12:13

On what basis? Blacks are human beings. So human beings have inherent value and rights?

12:21

Under the Constitution they have. So all human beings or some human beings? That's something that's been debated in the courts.

12:29

For example, do immigrants or do alien nationals in our borders have constitutional rights?

12:35

No, we're not asking about particular rights in a state. I'm asking about human beings.

12:41

You're trying to define psychos as human beings, and I don't accept that.

13:14

My argument would be that they are persons because they are biologically just like everyone else.

13:25

That's not a pro -life argument. Do you need

13:41

Christ to criticize another bag of biological stuff for contradictions when you gave up reason?

13:49

I did not give up reason. So then produce... There's nothing wrong with strongman arguments in his worldview.

13:57

In my worldview they're a problem. In an atheistic perspective, you said that human beings create logic.

14:04

They just invent it. So right now I can invent my own version of logic that contradicts yours, and you have no basis to argue.

14:11

You can create your own system. Is it true? My argument is going to be based on the

14:17

Constitution and the Supreme Court decision. So your position is that the

14:22

Constitution is absolute? It's the absolute law of the land. But is it objectively true and absolute?

14:31

Objectively true and absolute. Is it objective? Is it true outside of my experience, your experience? Is it true anyways?

14:38

It's as true as any law is. So fantastic. What's the Constitution teach us about life? Every person having the right to what?

14:45

Life, liberty, and what? Pursuit of happiness. Very good. So does the human being in the womb have the right to life?

14:53

Your standard is the Constitution. Well, my standard is that a woman has the right to choose whether to carry her pregnancy to term.

15:00

Okay, so there's a lot of women examples, and I know you and I would agree this is evil.

15:06

Together we would be unified in this. There's a lot of women who have drowned their children in the bathtub at two years old.

15:13

One woman drove her children into the lake when they were five and six years old. She made a choice with her own body and her own property.

15:21

I don't want to support these kids anymore. Why is it wrong to murder their children in that way?

15:28

It's wrong because they have rights as defined by the Constitution. Rights as defined by the

15:34

Constitution, they have a right to life because they're human? Yes. Thank you for that pro -life argument.

15:41

Sir, step over to this side. You realize you're in the image of God. You know the

15:46

God that I'm talking about. The problem here is sin. It's not a problem of pro -choice versus pro -life.

15:55

Sin is simply your concept. There's no objective. Sir, you gave up objective reality 30 minutes ago.

16:04

No, I didn't. You're borrowing from my worldview to make sense of yours. Yes, I will make sense of the world in my terms, as apparently you will, too.

16:14

I demand evidence. Sir, you gave up evidence. You gave up appeals to evidence and you gave up science.

16:20

No, I did not give up evidence. Sir, you don't even know the future will be like the past. It's you. You don't even know the future will be like the past.

16:26

You said you don't know. All evidence is dependent upon uniformity, which you said you don't even know if it's uniform.

16:33

Can you explain that? Sure. And I'll point you to some stuff so you can read about this.

16:39

Bertrand Russell, famous atheist, I'm sure maybe you heard about him, Bertrand Russell, he wrote a book called

16:44

Problems in Philosophy. And in his chapter on Problems in Philosophy, he talks about the problem of induction, which is a long -standing known problem from your perspective.

16:56

How do you actually appeal to the future being like the past? How? Because all science, all human experience, is dependent upon the future being like the past.

17:07

But Bertrand Russell, who's an atheist, says essentially this. If you say, well, the future will be like the past, because, hey, it always has been, you're begging the question, on what basis can we do science at all?

17:20

And when David Hume asked that and pondered that question, he said, when I ponder this question, I like to sit back into my easy chair and just drink scotch and smoke a cigar because I don't have an answer.

17:31

Because from your worldview, sir, there is no basis for the future being like the past. But you appeal to evidence because you're in the image of God.

17:39

You know the world that you live in. I'm not in the image of God. You are, sir. It's ridiculous.

17:45

That's what God says. Sir, the fact that you're here arguing against a moral system that you believe in gives evidence to the fact that you're in the image of God.

17:55

You believe that murder is wrong. You believe that theft is wrong, as I explained before. And that shows that you're in the image of God.

18:01

You believe in justice. That makes no sense. Things making no sense is okay in your worldview.

18:07

You've already abandoned reason. Are you an atheist? Look at that. Fantastic. So, what's wrong with strong men, according to your worldview?

18:19

You're an atheist. You borrowed, once again, from the Christian worldview. Ma 'am, you were talking to me.

18:26

You did respond. So, again, two atheists here, humanists, who believe,

18:33

I imagine, or trust in, or accept the idea of evolutionary processes that got us here, you believe in a materialist view of reality.

18:40

You can't appeal to reason, which is immaterial in nature, because you don't have immaterial realities in your worldview.

18:48

But here's the thing, and I want you to hear this with love. I respect you both. You will appeal to evidence.

18:53

You will appeal to ethics. You will appeal to reason, because you're in the image of God, and you can't help but being what

19:00

God made you. You're going to have to borrow from the Christian worldview in order to make sense of your reality.

19:06

If your worldview is true, what you're doing here today makes no sense.

19:11

It's useless. It is useless. It always is, and I essentially gave it up years ago.

19:18

I want you to hear the message. Jesus is God. He lived perfectly, died for sinners, and rose from the dead.

19:24

I used to be a Christian. I've heard plenty. Well, you weren't a Christian, ma 'am. You couldn't have been saved.

19:30

You couldn't have been saved. Ma 'am, according to the Christian worldview, they went out from us in order to show they were never really of us.

19:37

So your appeal to the Christian worldview for your experience is what you did.

19:42

The Bible says that you never truly knew God. So my call to you is to turn to Christ to be saved now.

19:49

And it will not only give you salvation and the gift of eternal life, but it will give you a basis for all the things you're arguing for, science, laws of logic, and ethics.

19:59

I don't need a basis. I'm just God myself. Thank you for showing the full collapse of your worldview.

20:05

Here's what you just said as an atheist. I don't need a basis for reason. I don't need a basis for science.

20:11

I don't need a basis for ethics. Ladies and gentlemen, that is atheism. There you go.

20:18

Praise God. Revival's breaking out. Do you hear what she just said? We're all meatbags after all.

20:24

Here are two meatbags arguing that things matter. Thank you. There's the full collapse of your atheism.

20:32

The full collapse. Turn to Christ and live. Turn to Christ and live. You just argued that you're a meatbag.

20:41

Ma 'am, you're in the image of God, and you have meaning and purpose that you don't even understand. You are not merely a bag of meat.

20:49

And watch this. You will walk away from here, ma 'am. I mean this with so much respect to you. You're going to walk away from here, and you're going to demonstrate that you do not believe what you just said.

20:58

You're going to live like there is meaning and purpose and human value and dignity, but you, according to your atheism, shouldn't be acting like that.

21:07

Every moment, every breath is going to show you know the God that I'm talking about. Turn to Christ and live.