The Wiccans and the Presbies, then Open Phones with Great Calls

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:36

And greetings, welcome to The Dividing Line. It is a Monday, which means we are doing a

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Monday, Wednesday, Friday thing. The computer screen isn't working again, but Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

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We're trying to make up - is that penance? I'm not really sure if that's penance or not. We're gonna try to make up for last week when

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I was overseas briefly It was a quick trip to Frankfurt.

01:08

Thanks very much to Peter and Tobias there in the Reformed Baptist Church of Frankfurt.

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Good guys there. They accepted my extremely short notice notification

01:22

I was going to be there and we put together some meetings that went real well.

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We talked about well, we sort of talked about textual reliability,

01:38

CBGM the first night, and then we did the Trinity the second night. We were at two different locations and had a few more people show up on Friday night than Thursday night for obvious reasons.

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I mean Fridays are a little bit easier for folks to get to. But I had a bunch of young guys from a local seminary showed up and was very encouraged by them and by their statement that their school is very conservative and Orthodox and faithful in its - especially in its view of Scripture because look,

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Germany doesn't have the greatest reputation on that level. Certainly we know of others.

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I mean, I've taught in Berlin a number of times at the TMI school there, and all those guys would, but still in comparison to the vast majority of folks in Germany, it's good to hear that.

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So anyway, and I also had a chance to run up to Las Vegas first and see the grandkids.

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It's always good to see the grandkids and take them to Barnes & Noble and let them buy whatever they want and that kind of thing.

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That's what grandparents are for, obviously. And they're homeschooled, so it helps to expand the homeschool library for the for the kids and go to Olive Garden and do the kind of stuff that we do.

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And it's very enjoyable. So anyways, we didn't have any programs last week. And so we're gonna sort of make up a little bit because I've got a lot of traveling left to do.

03:15

I'm going to be down, obviously, for my 17th year in St.

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Charles, the first weekend in December. 17 years, we've been doing that now.

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That's pretty amazing when you think about it. I sort of feel sorry for them. I think they're just sort of a reflex action now.

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The pastor gets the first weekend in December off, and the strange guy from from Arizona comes out and wears his

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Coogee sweaters, and we do our thing. And so I will be there as per normal,

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Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And every other time we've done this, I've just flown straight home on Sunday afternoon.

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This time I'm going down to record some video on the subject of homosexuality, human sexuality, marriage, etc.

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in Mississippi, the first few days of the week. And then I'm popping back over to Pryor, Oklahoma, where Phil Johnson was this past Sunday, yesterday.

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To the church there in Pryor. Derek Melton is the pastor there, and so we're gonna do something on the five solas on the following weekend there in Pryor.

04:37

I'm hoping and praying for some clear weather on one of those nights toward the the weekend that I'm not speaking.

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Because it's a new moon, and I'm hoping I'm gonna take my camera and a stand and stuff, and I'm hoping to get out in the dark.

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I realize at this particular point in the year that getting clear skies in December is probably just gonna be dragging my stuff around, not doing anything with it.

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But we're gonna try. We're gonna give it a shot. So I've got that coming up. So we've got a lot of travel, and then

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I'm teaching in Kentucky January 3rd through 5th, and then we've got

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G3, and then I'm going to Russia. Hopefully going to Russia. That's something we need to be working on ASAP.

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And Germany, and and then we've got to get Justin Brierley to set up that debate.

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I mean, look, you know, either Wednesday or Friday, depending on how my schedule goes, we're gonna be doing a

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Radio Free Geneva program, and for the first time, good old Justin, who has always...

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Justin has always been the neutral moderator.

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He's always... It's not that you couldn't tell, sort of, where he came down on stuff.

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But, you know, the fact is that he normally keeps himself out of stuff, but he put an article out in the premier

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Christianity magazine that he, I think, is editor of, or at least very much involved with, and basically took the autonomous free will is necessary to Christian theology perspective.

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And so, you know, it was a fairly lengthy article, and we're gonna go over it on Radio Free Geneva.

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And then, you know, hey, he's thrown his hat in the ring. Justin's got to know that we do appropriate, proper debates have for a long, long time.

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Let's debate it. Now, he's talking about, well, let's get Roger Olsen, or Gregory Boyd, or Lennox, you know, who did that long book, primarily philosophical book, not an ecstatical book.

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You know, let's get somebody else. But I'm like, Justin, come on. Your audience and my audience are very similar and cross over a whole lot.

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I've told people about the Unbelievable Radio broadcast, helped to get an audience going over here in the

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United States, and vice versa. I've been on Unbelievable, I don't know how many times, getting toward 20, somewhere between 12 and 20, somewhere in that range.

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I think it's around 15. But anyway, I think it would be great.

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I think it would be, everybody would be like, yeah, this is, this would be great. Obviously, they're gonna treat each other with respect.

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It's gonna be focused on the issues, but it will be, you know, a straightforward type thing.

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So let's hope something like that can happen sometime next year. I'm talking with folks about Australia and all over the place.

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So 2019 is gonna be big year. You've got the microphone up in front of your face. That normally means something.

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Just a little housekeeping stuff. Real quick, we are coming up on the end of the year and the folks that have been repeating donors or just one -time donors, if you haven't received an email from me in response to your donation, then

08:25

I don't have your email address. And I'm also finding that some of the email addresses that I do have have suddenly turned up bad.

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I don't know why. So if you haven't received an email from me in a while, you need to give me a call during the week and I need to update your records and make sure that so that the end of the year you're gonna be able to get your receipts quickly through email because those go out first.

08:48

So I send them out in PDF form and you can get right on that on your taxes. I also want to mention again, as you've discussed in the last few weeks, the

08:57

Travel Fund still needs some help. Yeah. And other than that, that's it.

09:05

Okay. Yeah, the Travel Fund especially. With all the travel we're going to try to do next year, all over the world, is going to be a real important thing.

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So please remember that as we are working toward planning all sorts of things.

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Obviously, it would be really nice to do a series in London. We've got a couple of different possibilities on the

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Islamic side for different kinds of debates. We want to try to do the same thing

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Australia at some point. And, you know, just do a series of debates.

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That's why, you know, if I'm going to be there then, you know, Justin and I can at least do a program on the subject.

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But I'd rather do a serious, you know, actual debate if that would be possible.

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So we'll see what we can put together about that. But that's an important thing. There's a

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Cranmer in channel right now. So I actually wish I could say, hey you, because I had sent him an email about getting down under, shall we say, which is where the

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Jeff Durbin and the gang from End Abortion Now were down in Australia report on having a good time down there.

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I'm still stunned that Queensland just legalized abortion.

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This strikes me as very strange because Australia is an extremely secular country and so that they would just now be doing that really, really took me aback.

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But anyway, that's what's going on there. Don't get me on some of those subjects, especially what

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Arizona did. Just makes me ill. Can you see this meme that you were laughing about?

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I have it up on my screen here. You don't want to show it? What? Okay, well, that's why it's up there.

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Someone on Twitter sent this to me. I didn't see it go by at first, but thankfully

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I saw Rich laughing about it later on, and so I was able to find it. There it is. Who would win an entire legion of false and unbiblical religions, teachings, world views, and philosophies,

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Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholicism, Islam, Iglesia Ni Cristo, Open Theism, Atheism, Queer Theology, Pelagianism, Critical Race Theory, Modalism, Federal Vision, and Unitarianism versus one grumpy

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Gramps with a Greek New Testament. Now the funny thing is that particular picture of me,

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I'm not sure if people recognize where that came from, but that's from the Greg Strawbridge debate in Florida.

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And so I'm actually debating a Presbyterian and have that look on my face at that particular point in time.

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What? Yes, I did notice. They did not include that on the list. That's probably good.

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I wouldn't want to throw my Presbyterian brothers under the bus there. Speaking of which, though,

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I'm not sure if any of you saw this, but there was a report in the

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Christian Post about studies from Trinity College and the

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Peer Research Center that had found that there are at least 1 .5 million witches in the

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United States. That would put them 100 ,000 over the 1 .4 million mainline

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Presbyterians in the country. I couldn't help but thinking, who exactly are they counting?

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And so I did a little looking around and they're pretty much just talking about the

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PCUSA. But the PCUSA would be called one of the mainlines.

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Where did that even come from? Mainline means dying as fast as possible today, in essence.

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But when you look up the numbers for the PCUSA, while they have 1 .4

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million members, the actual attendance is less than 600 ,000.

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So it's sort of like the same situation with Southern Baptists. We've got the largest membership of any

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Protestant domination, but we can only find about a third of our members in any one given Sunday, which is the reality, obviously, in that case.

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So I was looking up, do they include the

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PCA? The answer was no, that would not include the

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PCA. The PCA, I think, had what?

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340 ,000, something like that. And then OPC, messing with all the numbers there, at 31 ,000.

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And I've often said that Reformed Baptists and OPC are most alike, and that's probably one of the ways that we are most alike.

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So even if you threw the PCA and OPC in there, it really wouldn't make any difference. The reality, of course, it's just a number,

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I realize that, but paganism is making a comeback, because the secular worldview is, always has been, always will be, as long as man has created the image of God, the secular worldview is going to be deeply unsatisfying and stultifying to human flourishing, if we borrow the phrase from a famous person.

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And so when you see naturalistic, well, not naturalistic, materialistic worldviews predominating, these types of pagan, mystical -type religions are going to benefit from that, because mankind is not going to continue.

15:46

By the way, phones are open at 877 -753 -3341. I put that on the tweet that I put out.

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And 877 -753 -3341. So we're going to open the phones.

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We already have one caller waiting, but we want to want to invite you to participate in the program today.

16:13

The point of that article was not just to find out how many Presbyterians are still left.

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There aren't a whole lot in that sense, as far as Orthodox ones. Calvin would not own many of those

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Presbyterians by any stretch of the imagination. But also, just simply to point out the rapid degradation, religiously, in the

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United States. Something certainly we have seen happening for a long period of time, but it seems to be accelerating a good bit.

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And I know that when I compare that together with looking at some of the people that were elected to public office, and given,

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I'll be perfectly honest with you, my deep cynicism now regarding even the accuracy of the of the vote counts that that we get.

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I'm sorry, I'm skeptical, very skeptical. You put all that together and you look at some of the people who are now going to be having a direct impact upon our governmental procedures in regards to abortion and marriage and sexuality and things like that.

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And when people say, God bless America, we just simply have to once again specifically ask, upon what basis?

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Upon what basis? What kind of blessing? How can a

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Christian pray for the material blessing of a nation that is just so adamantly opposed to his ways and his truth?

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It's stunning. It really, really is stunning. I can go back, the archives exist, probably still exist on magnetic tape, because that's what we were using back there, and document that on September 12, 2001, we did a program where we talked about God bless

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America with repentance, and that has not changed since 2001.

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The need has only, I think, grown ever deeper. And that's,

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I think, what we're looking at today as well. So, yeah, more Wiccans than Presbyterians.

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Edwards and the others back then, I don't think they, well, maybe some of them saw it coming. They saw the rise of universalism and unitarianism and things like that.

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You know, maybe they saw the danger of it. I don't know. But that's what we face today.

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877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number.

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So we are going to start taking your phone calls. You remember that.

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Yes, Algo is in channel. So remember that particular one. Let's talk with Lauren.

19:39

Hi, Lauren. Hi there, Dr. White. God bless you and Rich. My husband and I love your ministry and are very, very blessed by it.

19:48

Well, thank you. Okay, sir. My question is, apologetically, with all the wackiness with marriage these days,

19:57

I don't have a real good answer, or I don't have an answer at all, frankly, for anybody that would ask me, say, about a man after God's own heart, about great

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King David and all of his wives, and that, you know, he was basically living in sin, because we know that one man and one woman with Adam and Eve.

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How would I explain to someone, because I really don't have an answer, and I know it's a different covenant, about David living in sin with all of his wives, and maybe bring it over to the new covenant today?

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Well, I don't know that I would accuse him of living in sin. God gave him those wives and those concubines.

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Obviously, we see with Solomon what happened as a result of that, but that doesn't change the fact that they were living in a time period where the intentions that God had given originally were not being observed within the society, and so even within the covenant community.

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And so we can recognize, especially you look at the really dark times of the judges, and they're coming out of that extremely dark time.

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It's interesting to note, for example, that the revival that takes place under Josiah, when the law is even discovered.

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There hasn't even been a regular reading of the law and a knowledge of the law for a great deal of time, and so there's a lot of darkness.

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And so, you know, we assume that everyone was running around with their own copy of the scriptures that had been written to that particular time, but that wasn't the case, and it's plainly not the case.

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And so we can recognize the tremendous pain and difficulty that polygamy brought into David's life.

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You look at what happens with Absalom and all the related things like that.

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You can definitely see that this is not what was intended, but you can also see that earlier in the judges, you can see that later.

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The reality is that what we see in the New Covenant in regards to Jesus' teaching in Matthew chapter 19, that's the clearest revelation that has been given.

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And so if someone wants to bring up David, I simply have to say, are you trying to make

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David the ultimate example? You know, when people use, you know, man after God's own heart, you got to remember

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Uriah and all sorts of things like that. Evidently, being a man after God's own heart means an individual who is able to repent of one's sins, not be a moral paragon of virtue.

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And so if someone were to bring up that type of thing to me, I would just basically say, well, your presuppositions are in error.

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We don't turn David or any of the even any of the patriarchs into some kind of standard for us today.

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We recognize that they had a limited revelation in their day. We have a significantly higher revelation available to us today than they had in their day, and therefore we will be judged by what light we have.

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They will be judged by the light that they had. And it is a danger when people read the

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Bible, and as long as a story is told, they assume that that somehow communicates some...

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It happens apologetically. People say, well, look at this terrible story that happens in Judges, and that must mean that this is teaching us some kind of lesson.

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Well, not necessarily. Sometimes it's just simply telling us how dark and difficult times were in the past and how

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God continued to work with his people in spite of all that. So we have to be very, very careful along those lines to not allow certain presuppositions and assumptions to be made.

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And so what you see is you go, well, look at what resulted from this. You've got

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Uriah. You've got what happens with Solomon. You have what happens with Absalom.

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All of these things flow out of this living on a lower plane that we can certainly see now in hindsight.

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We can certainly see in light of Jesus' teaching. But what does that have to do with us today? I mean, we have a clarity of teaching on this subject, and if you're going to make the argument that, well,

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Jesus didn't really teach that, then you need to go to Matthew 19, you need to go to Matthew 5, you need to go to those texts that are actually specifically relevant and point out that there really aren't any counter -arguments.

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But you can't say that God, I mean the scriptures specifically say God gave him these things as king, and they were a sign of his royal power and so on and so forth.

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But they're also, especially once you get Solomon, a fulfillment of the warning, hey, you want a king?

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You want to be like the nations around you? Here's what's going to happen, because this is what happens when you concentrate power in a particular individual.

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You're going to get those individuals who use that power in a particular way, and that's exactly what did take place.

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So that's how I would respond if someone tried to raise that.

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It's presuppositionally a flawed argument, and once you get those presuppositions exposed, you can go from there.

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That is a wonderful answer, and so clear, and and you just like open it up.

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My mind just opened up, and I was like, oh, I should have had a V8. Of course, that makes all the sense in the world.

26:14

They still make V8, but I'm afraid that particular commercial is dating both of us a good bit.

26:22

Yeah, you bet. Who was that? Dr. White. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Have a great day. All right.

26:27

God bless. Bye -bye. I was talking to, who was I talking to? Where was

26:33

I? Somewhere. I was this past week, and I was talking to some young folks, and who was it?

26:45

Oh, yes. Yeah, that's right. I was talking to a, I'll just call her

26:52

Sister C, because I don't want to get in trouble or someone to track her down and say, hey, don't listen to that guy

26:58

I told you. But I sat down next to a

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Mormon missionary at the gate with my delayed flight.

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I had a lot of delayed flights. This trip was just one delayed flight after another one, and they'll have to admit, you know, with the apps that you've got on your phones and stuff like that, it's easier to deal with those things, and you know, your app warns you, hey, your flight's been delayed.

27:31

You're not going to make a connection. You want to re -book, and you can do it all right there. You don't have to sit there on the phone calling people. It's gotten a little bit better, but anyway.

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But I sit down, and right as I sit down, I realize that one seat over from me, there's an empty seat between us, is a

27:46

Mormon missionary, and I'm sitting there going, okay, so there's a

27:53

Mormon missionary over there, and while I'm formulating a plan, she starts the conversation. And it was like a 90 -minute talk, and it was really good.

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It was really nice, but at one point I said, yeah,

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I don't want to have to do the OJ Simpson thing through the airport, and she just looked blankly at me because she had no earthly idea who

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OJ Simpson was or what he did in an airport, and I was once again reminded of just how very old

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I actually am and how some of the best illustrations just don't work anymore.

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They just, they just, they do not work anymore. So yeah, there you go.

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I lost a call. I guess they couldn't hang on.

28:58

Sorry about that. So let's talk to I guess this is

29:05

Jibreel. Hello, Jibreel. Hello. Yes, sir. Yes, so I was going through John chapter 5 with a few

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Jehovah's Witnesses on my college campus, witnessing them, as you have pointed out many times, that it's a text we often look over in terms of the deity of Christ, but I was looking a little closer at verse 19, and I was wondering, how should we consider

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Jesus' words, whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does, in light of the distinction between their roles?

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So as to avoid modalism, for instance, you know, the Son died on the cross, but the

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Father didn't. That's one thing that Jesus didn't, the Father did do. So how do we understand His words, these things?

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I'm not sure exactly what he's referring to. Yeah, so we're looking at John chapter 5, verse 19, and once again, this is immediately after the note from John.

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For this reason, the Jews were seeking all the more to kill

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Him, because He was not only loosing or breaking the Sabbath, but He was also referring to God as His own

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Father, making Himself equal with God. And so what comes afterwards is a explanation of what it is that Jesus means when

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He refers to God as His own Father in a specific fashion, and that this then results in His being equal with God, not to be identified as the

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Father, but equal with God. And so verse 19 is the beginning of that. Therefore, Jesus answered and was saying to them, truly, truly,

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I say to you, the Son is not able to do anything off healthu, that is, by Himself, separate from the

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Father, unless it is something He sees the

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Father doing for whatever that one, and most translations will put the word

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Father in there because it gets somewhat confusing in the English language. It's not confusing in the

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Greek language, because the terms have case, gender, and number. For whatever that one is doing, these things also the

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Son does in like manner, or is doing the same things in the same way.

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And so the question is, does this in some way, how does this impact the relationship of Father and Son, evidently based upon the assumption that for whatever the

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Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner, means that there has to be some kind of an identity between the actions of the

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Father and the Son, whereas we recognize it's the Son who's been made flesh, it wasn't the Father who's made flesh, it's the

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Son who redeems, the Father decrees the redemption and acts as judge on the basis of the finished work of the

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Son, the Father and the Son send the Spirit, who then comforts people, so on and so forth. But I think the error in that assumption is that it's

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Jesus' intention to in any way say, the Father has done everything that I have done.

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He's talking about divine works, and he's also going to say, for example, all the words that I speak, these come from the

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Father. Well, does that mean that the Father in heaven speaks to the disciples, hey,

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Peter, you forgot your rucksack or something like that? No, of course not. That's not what's being referred to.

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What's going to be referred to all the way through John chapter 5, especially with the use of that term homoios, is the unity that exists between the

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Father and the Son in accomplishing the will of God. And so the concern that is addressed in verses 19 and following is, yes, by his language,

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Jesus is making himself equal with God the Father, but that does not mean he is some renegade deity seeking worship apart from the

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Father. Instead, he has been sent to accomplish what the

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Father sent him to do, to say and to do and to teach. And so the point of the unity is that Jesus is doing exactly what his

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Father has determined for him, not that the Father has done everything the

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Son has done. There is one divine will and the Son is accomplishing that divine will in union with the

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Father. And so that's what it's referring to when it says what I've seen the Father doing or what I've heard the

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Father saying, the words that I speak come from the Father. There is this perfect unity between the

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Father and the Son so that all the Son is doing can in no way ever detract from or distract from the one proper worship of God.

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That does not mean that they're doing the same thing in the same way. None of the disciples would have even thought of interpreting those words in that way because they recognize it's not the

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Father who is speaking to them, it's the Son who's speaking to them. And so the Father isn't incarnate on the planet.

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It's not the Father who's become flesh. And remember, John has provided us with the interpretational framework that we're supposed to be using as we read through John in the

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Gospel of John in the prologue. And so we've already been told that it's the logos that took on flesh and dwelt among us, not the

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Father. He's been distinguished from the Father. In John 1 18, the end of that interpretive grid that is given to us, no one has seen

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God, the Father, at any time. The unique God who is in the bosom of the

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Father, He has made Him known. And so no confusion is given, none of the disciples would have even thought of that interpretation, the idea that, well, that means that everything

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Jesus does or says is something the Father has already done or said in an incarnate state someplace.

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No, but there is perfect unity and harmony between the Father and the Son in what the

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Son is teaching, in what the Son is doing. And this is a plan that was conceived within the

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Godhead before time itself began. And so that's going to be fleshed out more as you go along, because it says,

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For the Father loves the Son and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing, and the Father will show

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Him greater works than these that you will marvel. And so there is a perfection in the revelation that the

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Son brings of the Father, that no one else could ever give us, of the

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Father, and the Father's love and the Father's heart. That, again, takes us back to John 1 .18, the closeness that exists, the one who's at the

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Father's side. The Father loves the Son. These are the same themes that are being worked out once again.

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And so, for just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom

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He wishes. So when you look at the raising of Lazarus, is that Jesus acting in concert with the

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Father or separately from the Father? No, it's in concert with the

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Father. And so that unity is what is being emphasized all the way through. That definitely makes more sense.

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Do you have time if I could just ask one more quick question about this text? Okay. Some people like to put

37:24

Jesus' words here, specifically, only referring to Himself during the Incarnation.

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What's something that could be referring to His pre -incarnate state? Or how would you refer to that?

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Is this something we could say this is only for Jesus, referring to Jesus Himself in His incarnate state, or can we refer to Him at all times, even pre -Incarnation?

37:44

That's interesting. I would... That is relevant to the controversy that erupted a couple of years ago during the summer in the concept of the eternal subordination of the

38:00

Son. Given that every bit of the context here in John 5 is either revelational or is salvific, messianic, it's all relevant to the

38:17

Son in the incarnate state. It would be, I think, a danger to extract from this context of conflict with the

38:28

Jews and Jesus' revelation of the Father as His own

38:34

Father in a unique sense. Extracting that back before creation,

38:39

I think, could be problematic and might lead to, well, some of the things that we've seen.

38:45

There's always a rationalistic bent toward forms of subordinationism.

38:54

The unique relationship the divine persons hold toward one another is so outside of our human categories and so subject to our importation of human categories into it that are foreign to it.

39:12

I think we need to be very, very, very careful at that point as to what we extrapolate backwards.

39:20

Some Orthodox teachers in the past, I think, have extrapolated a few things a little bit too far, but especially on something like this,

39:27

I personally would be rather concerned about trying to take this in light of its context and read it into the eternal state without more basis upon which to do so.

39:43

Okay, thank you. That's very helpful. Okay. All righty. Thank you very much, sir. Okay. God bless. God bless. Bye -bye.

39:50

All right. 877 -753 -3341. 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number.

40:02

Let's talk to Jeff, I think. Are you up in New Hampshire, Jeff?

40:08

Yes, sir. Is it cold up there yet? Uh, it's a balmy 36 degrees right now.

40:14

Well, a couple inches of snow and ice on the ground. Well, there you go. There you go. So you might end up with a white

40:21

Christmas, huh? Or maybe a white Thanksgiving. That's possible, too. Actually, I lived in Arizona for about 18 months and it snowed in the part of Sierra Vista I was in for the first time in like 70 years.

40:34

Well, there you go. So I brought it with me when I was down there, but don't worry, I took it away. I remember, is there a granite mountain up there?

40:43

Oh, it's the Granite State. Oh, it's called the Granite State. Yeah. I just remember a trip with my family long, long ago when

40:50

I was a kid up to Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Drove through Massachusetts.

40:57

Oh, you want to get to the old man in the mountain that was on Cannon Mountain? Yeah, that's possible. That's possible.

41:03

Yeah. Yeah. I just remember this was long before GPS and I just remember that was on that trip that my my mom, my dad got into an argument in the front seat of the car as to where we were supposed to be going and and it got heated enough that my mom said we're supposed to be right here and she

41:23

Popped her finger on the map and it went straight through and it took out you know the spot we needed to see as to which turn we were supposed to take and you know, and it's just Just a reminder of how things have changed over the past I'm coming up on my

41:39

Turning 56 next next month. So it's things have changed a little bit since then but anyways,

41:45

I do remember it being a beautiful state because I think we went up there during the Changing of the leaves and it was it was pretty

41:53

The best state in the union and everybody's welcome as long as they leave their ideas wherever they came from Yeah, that's the problem we unfortunately have been sucking in so many of the refugees from california that we've become an insane state ourselves

42:07

So it's not a good thing What can I do for you? well, I just I wanted to um, just encourage, uh,

42:15

You are the listeners to maybe if they're thinking of a new year's resolution to look up your old.

42:21

Um, your old, uh Write up on your hundred memory verse.

42:26

Yeah, uh challenge Um, well the way you describe how you ought to learn the verses is really great

42:32

It's it doesn't involve any apps, you know So it's still good and reading the written word and knowing where to find it is critical

42:41

And the context that you provide for a lot of the verses was immediately helpful right after I started

42:46

When I had an encounter with a jehovah's witness Um, we have more of those up here than we do mormons, right?

42:53

So I I had substituted some verses in your uh, your one two punch of uh, uh, psalm 102 verses 25 through 27

43:02

Related to uh hebrews chapter 1 8 and 10 Um was immediately helpful as well as uh, um

43:10

John chapter 12 referring to isaiah's vision, right? Uh and in chapter 6 this lady was absolutely floored when she you know

43:19

I didn't steamroller actually watching your interactions with with uh cultists Um has been so helpful in understanding.

43:27

Um, like what what it is they believe Uh trying to demonstrate compassion and not steamroll them or or uh proof text them to death um, but let them uh, kind of kind of get into the into the mix like they're helping you out and then

43:43

And and then when I asked her simple questions, like can you please show me where jesus is created? um, she

43:49

She she was searching for the verse. She didn't have them memorized and I did I had her verses memorized and I when are you looking for colossians chapter 1 verse 15?

43:59

And then and then I I told her what it was And then and I even pointed out that her translation the new world translation added the word other in there when they're talking about all things created by Uh by christ,

44:11

I just wanted to encourage people to go ahead and go back to that and and if you you know The your advice on that it's just really helpful.

44:18

It's been an excellent way to memorize verses. Yeah Yeah, there's no no two ways about it when and actually

44:23

I think for me anyways, uh It is a little bit easier to memorize a text of scripture when a you you know its context and b you you know

44:36

What it may end up How you may end up using it. Um, I just I just know that in my mind if uh, if I know that this is information

44:47

I may end up needing While on a street corner with uh with 10 more missionaries around me or uh in someone's home with jehovah's witnesses or whatever um, it just it sticks better it it just I don't know why it just sticks better.

45:04

Uh, I can still remember all sorts of Dead muslim leaders names, but like I said,

45:09

I go to target. I can't remember what in the world i'm supposed to get so It's just it's just you know, uh, that's how

45:16

I work and I think there's some others that you know Have that as well what he's referring to of course are the hundred verse memory systems.

45:23

Um that I wrote up Well, I remember I did the I I did the uh, what what do you?

45:29

Look at twitter. Um, there's nothing on twitter um um

45:36

I wrote up I I remember writing the hundred verse memorization system in our teeny tiny office our two -room office, uh on north 16th street and um

45:49

I remember the most the most advanced pieces of equipment we had back then I wrote that on a compact

45:55

Quote -unquote compact portable Um, and we had one copy machine. That's all we had at that time.

46:02

That was that was it Uh, it was uh, it was a long long time ago, but you know what god's truth doesn't change

46:08

So, uh, i'm glad you found that to be useful and uh, people can find all that if they just look up 100 verse

46:14

At aomin .org in the search box and it should pop it right up and uh It's not on my twitter screen, sorry about that Uh, well he put the i'm being told though it's not showing up on my feed, uh that the uh,

46:31

The link is on twitter so folks can find that if uh, if it shows up on yours doesn't show up on mine anyways, jeff,

46:37

I appreciate up there in new hampshire and uh, uh, keep uh, keep talking to those folks because uh,

46:42

Uh, they're you're their best hope Well, thank you very much. All right. God bless.

46:48

Bye. Bye All right, uh Let's talk to uh, hmm, okay, uh caleb.

46:58

Hi caleb Hi, dr. White, how are you doing today doing good? All right

47:05

We met at the uh on the germany trip last year at solvent tours Um, i'm the bearded guy that sat in the back of the bus.

47:11

It's just privileged to talk to you again, okay All right. Um, so, uh,

47:16

I recently got a book, uh to a thousand generations by douglas wilson It's basically a case for infant baptism

47:23

I'm really used to the pretty bad arguments for infant baptism Uh, I think uh, I think he came out a lot stronger than some of the debates i've heard

47:30

Uh, you have I was kind of interested for your comment on um, Jeremiah 32

47:36

I thought by far your strongest argument was from hebrews 8 as far as the nature of the new covenant christ

47:41

Always being the mediator in the citation there from jeremiah 31 But in jeremiah 32, um, i'm looking at it and in verse 38

47:50

It says and they shall be my people I will be their god and I will give them one heart in one way that they may fear me always

47:56

Um in their own good and for the good of their children after them for their own good, excuse me

48:02

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them and that seems to be um, that seems to be the follow -up to jeremiah 31 and the argument

48:10

The argument that I found difficult to rebut would be um, axe 239 This sounds like axe 239 language to me that this would be for Them and their children this this new covenant and I was curious as to your comment on that Well as soon as you connect it to axe 2 that pretty much ends it as far as I can see

48:29

Uh, because uh, yes, there's there's no question. This continues the new covenant language

48:34

But but who who who are your children in the new covenant? What it was jesus his own teaching his gospel divides families, um and when you look at the application that peter makes in acts chapter 2 and I suppose we should uh pop over there to that, uh, it is

48:54

Very very important to to listen to everything that is that is said Repent and each of you be baptized in the name of jesus christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive

49:05

The gift of the holy spirit for the promise is for you And your children and for all who are far off What as many as the lord our god will call to himself?

49:19

And so the new covenant um Interpretation by the apostles themselves if this is utilizing similar language um as i've pointed out in discussing, uh, this

49:33

I don't remember if it was in the reform baptist book on on the new covenant and these issues.

49:39

Um, where I had a two -part chapter, uh in it where I had responded to another one of my dear presbyterian brothers on this particular subject, but At some point

49:50

I remember Uh in one of those articles or one of those chapters I lose track of it after after a while Uh, the the important thing to recognize here is

50:01

That what's happening here is the jews Are under conviction for being a part of putting to death the messiah and when

50:12

Peter says the promise is for you and your children um

50:19

Sometimes my presbyterian brothers stop right there and go see Uh, there it is, it's it's us and our children.

50:26

Well, first of all in context The command is repent and be baptized each one of you

50:33

And so repentance and baptism cannot be separated from one another And so you end up with all these strange ideas about infantile faith or infantile repentance or whatever else it might be um in this context the the whole discussion

50:47

Is about repentance and baptism and there's nothing here About infant baptism taking place.

50:54

I can't believe that anyone would actually make a serious argument That at this point in time that infant baptism was taking place

51:01

I mean just from a church history perspective let alone exegetical perspective So you've got the immediate context but very often they'll go for the promises of you and your children stop

51:10

You can't stop there Uh, it is so very very clear for you for your children and for all the ones who are a far off Well, who is makran that the term makran is used there is used by paul, for example in talking about the gentiles

51:28

And so what he's saying is not This continuation of a sign of the covenant type concept

51:36

From one generation next generation circumcision. This is jews and gentiles This is the this is the fact that god is going to by his grace call

51:47

People from every tribe tongue people a nation that's the emphasis it worries me uh when what is being said is

51:56

Is missing the fact that yes, even though you jews have rejected your messiah the message is still for you

52:01

But you need to realize the message is for all people including those who are far off As many as our god will call to himself the overarching thing that should catch our attention here is the electing grace of god um

52:15

That's that's what's that's what's going on here is is you have election And you tie that together with what you end up with in romans 9 for example

52:24

And the fact that god has always acted in this electing fashion, even even dividing families jacob and esau a very clear example of this

52:33

Um god's going to accomplish his purposes in election That's what's going on here.

52:39

And when it says you and your children that is Jewish people and in many who are as far off gentiles

52:45

Has nothing to do with baptism And in fact, if you're going to argue baptism from this passage, you have to connect it immediately with repentance

52:52

Repentance is absolutely the prerequisite And so that would preclude

52:57

I would hope all of us would agree who are reformed Uh, the exercise of repentance on the part of an a nursing infant or something like that repentance has a particular meaning

53:07

And it's interesting. You said you've listened to some of the debates um the the two major debates, um

53:15

One was with a presbyterian who doesn't believe In pato communion and one with one who does

53:22

And that did change some of the essence of the argumentation um and I would say in in in somewhat of a of a disconcerting fashion once you get to The pato communionist who is at least trying to be consistent, but where that ends up leading

53:41

I think can become very concerning because Now the whole relationship between christian baptism and repentance and faith, um becomes highly questionable um

53:52

At that particular point in time. So yeah the apostolic interpretation, uh using that language um definitely promises for you and your children and for all who far off gentiles as many as the lord our god will call to himself and so um if you've seen uh pierre pierre pierre

54:15

Uh, i'd have to look it up forgotten the the full name. Uh, the book on infant baptism by pierre something or somebody pierre

54:22

I don't remember anyways He ends up arguing that the children of uh christians

54:31

Have a different spiritual state Than what? Yes, pierre myself

54:37

Thank you Google to the rescue rich, uh rich looked up if you've if you've seen pierre marcelle's book um, he actually ends up arguing that um, children of christians have a different spiritual nature that in essence their um relationship to their covenant parents um

54:57

Sort of in some way removes total depravity Um, and i'm just sort of like whoa.

55:04

Whoa. Whoa, where where do we where where did that come from? But that's that's one

55:10

Direction down there once you start going that that way there's all sorts of different understandings It's not a monolithic thing on on the other side as to how those things are are understood.

55:19

But um, yeah, uh, so um Yeah, have you seen the debate

55:25

I did with uh, doug on um roman catholics? Oh, I certainly have it's one of my favorites you you both of you.

55:31

I look up to very much. Yeah Well, I I thoroughly enjoyed that. Well, look I I love doug wilson. I I think he's a great guy

55:39

Um, we should probably have some more debates in the future Uh, he's brilliant. He's probably the best wordsmith alive today but um doesn't change the fact that each one of us is

55:54

Has to check out for our traditions. Um, and so You know, there you go.

56:00

So there's so much stuff that I agree with doug wilson on um that it does sort of Throw into rather sharp relief the issues where we don't um one thing

56:11

Is plainly obvious though beyond all dispute and debate And that is um, doug wilson should never wear a coogee sweater

56:20

Oh, no question about that. He could not he could not pull it off. I'm, sorry He could not pull it off now.

56:26

Did you my daughter showed me? Some video where he lit a um a couch on fire recently.

56:33

Did you see that? Oh, certainly. Yeah, his uh, no quarter november. Yeah, no quarter november about all the blogs he's doing this this month.

56:41

Yeah Yeah, but he but he that wasn't photoshopped He he lit it.

56:47

I'm aware. He lit it on fire and the fire was underneath him Okay. Oh, really?

56:52

Okay, just look just watch you'll see the under part of the of the couch that he is sitting on the fire spread that far before he got up and and walked out of that frame and I was just like Okay, i'll wear the coogees you sit on the burning couches and uh, we'll just Okay, for sure, all right

57:15

Go ahead. Thank you, sir Well, uh, go ahead because we're going to run over time. Anyways, so Oh, okay.

57:20

I'm, sorry. I just wanted to bring it back to j to um, jeremiah 32 Just just not a follow -up question

57:26

But just a clarification in the promise of the new covenant that promise of god's faithfulness to the children

57:31

We could then assume based on what you've already told me that that's somewhat grown children, uh that have uh have demonstrated

57:40

No, I look look we I do not i'm very very concerned um when we take these promises of god's faithfulness

57:50

And we if we turn them into something that is connected to families were family specifically not not the continuation of the faith

57:59

And timothy being the child of paul or something like that So in other words defining those those within the work of the spirit informing the church when we connect that to specific family units

58:11

Don't haven't we seen in the old covenant? How many times that broke down?

58:19

And are we saying in the new covenant that's somehow going to change because the only way that could change the new covenant Is if you accept the idea that all of your children are going to be regenerated and It's a sad

58:31

Sad reality That there really isn't a promise that's going to happen and no question that that that to me is

58:39

Has led to a lot of broken hearts and a lot of thoughts that their promises had been broken um,

58:45

I think that the Relationships that exist within the church is what is referring to there the continuing generation

58:51

Uh down through the church not the genetic relationship any longer. I think it's a spiritual one.

58:57

Not a not a Not one connected land promises and all the rest that kind of stuff that that's uh, limited things to the the nation of israel.

59:04

So Anyways, thanks. Caleb. I appreciate it and don't you don't don't light up any any couches you're sitting on.

59:11

Okay? No, sir. I don't plan to sir. You're a gift to the church. I thank you so much for your ministry It's impacted me and my church deeply god bless.

59:18

Thanks. Caleb. God bless. Stay faithful out there. All righty. All right Thank you. All right, let's get to adam real quick and wrap things up.

59:25

Uh adam in Minnesota the land of 10 000 lakes and 100 billion mosquitoes during july

59:35

Well, thank you for taking my call dr. White, can you can you tell can you tell that I am actually did you know that I am a minnesota native

59:42

I I did know that when I found out I was I was pretty excited. It's on your wikipedia page Yeah, oh it is.

59:48

Well, I don't I have no idea what's on my wikipedia page and i'm afraid to look at what is that? on my wikipedia Because it's not anything too bad, but it's been a while since I said yeah anyway

01:00:00

Um, so my question, um, you've mentioned several times throughout your your podcast that God is going to hold people accountable for what they do, which is obvious and you've also used that in um referring to believers um recently a couple weeks ago, you mentioned that you don't think it's going to be like a

01:00:20

Someone's life broadcasted on a big screen For all to see. Yeah. Yeah the jack the jack chick.

01:00:26

This was your life thing. Yeah now yeah, yeah, and so I was curious what exactly you think that's going to be like because I I guess i'm trying to wrap my head around How god holds us accountable for what christ has paid the penalty for and like where do we draw the line with that?

01:00:45

well Okay It's not it's not that this could be a review of every

01:00:52

Every sin great or small, but the fact is, uh, we have been given um

01:00:58

Well the parable of the talents we have been we have been given gifts by god and there is a a reckoning, uh in regards to Uh what we've done with those those gifts now the the nature of that Uh, is it something that's a

01:01:17

I I would guess that You see we have the idea of any concept of judgment is primarily a process over time where Observation, you know, that's where the idea of the big screen comes up You know everyone gets to observe and you get to be embarrassed and and then you know

01:01:38

Finally forgiven at the end or something. Um We don't know We we pretend to know and we write books about knowing but we really don't know a lot about the the nature of consciousness and experience after death in regards to time

01:01:57

How we gain knowledge will we gain knowledge in the same way we gain knowledge now or can there be?

01:02:03

an immediate impartation of knowledge What what about our experience of time?

01:02:10

um You know, we we just don't know and it and and I don't know that our our current state allows us in our language to really wrap ourselves around um what all of that is going to involve but there there is

01:02:28

Uh, if there is an if there is a demonstration of something if there is a revelation of something

01:02:35

It is going to be primarily the righteousness and justice of god

01:02:41

And his glorification not so much. Um a extended focus upon How much god gave you and you did nothing with uh, it could simply be a very

01:02:56

It could be as simple Or as deep as The savior drawing near to each one of his elect

01:03:11

Imparting immediate knowledge of What all of his purposes were?

01:03:19

so that we recognize Him for who he is see ourselves in a way that we never saw ourselves.

01:03:27

We are disabused of all the um self -deceptions we had ever had we

01:03:33

We we all of a sudden recognize all the purposes that we that that we didn't understand

01:03:39

Um all the hurts that we had we immediately see what their reasons were I I don't know what that would be like I don't know that it has to be instantaneous

01:03:50

Like I said, I don't know about the passage of time um but you would you would think that Whatever it would involve it would involve for us a a

01:04:04

Fundamental breaking down of every last bit of resistance to the divine will every last bit of ignorance

01:04:13

Tradition anything that is it is opposed to that that divine will And that it would be done for his elect people all in the context of loving adoration

01:04:26

And and that's why I say in in this life. I don't know that we can even begin to To get a picture of it or even try to imagine it.

01:04:35

Um but when we when we talk about judgment, we we tend to we tend to import the human aspect of that the temporal aspect of it the

01:04:47

The fact that any judgment that we see in this life is always imperfect So often it's it doesn't even approach the standard that the law itself is set human law let alone divine law

01:05:00

And so all of that I think colors our our perception of this um, but you know, first corinthians 3 there there is a a a testing of the motives of the heart and there is a a judgment that takes place there and um but those who are in Who have or are in christ and experiencing this judgment?

01:05:26

are saved um and yet there is a aspect of this fire that is this that was you know, that Has nothing to do with purgatory.

01:05:34

That's that's obvious um, but what it does have to but but Because it doesn't have anything to do with purgatory.

01:05:41

We tend to sort of like It you know will there be a level of Love and raptured suffering when we recognize um how often we chose to walk alone how often we did not utilize the resources that the spirit offered to us how often we

01:06:02

Hurt others by our attitude. I don't know Um, but there's some type of judgment and there's some type of change that takes place as a result and certainly

01:06:13

What is demonstrated to the watching universe if you can describe it in that way? Is that what god accomplished?

01:06:21

What god did was made of of gold silver and precious stones and what we did was wood hay and stone

01:06:28

I think it sounds like you're under attack by a dishwasher

01:06:34

I yeah, uh, not quite but That's the only way

01:06:40

I could describe that so that's the best way I could I could describe it adam Awesome. No that that adds a lot of clarity to that.

01:06:48

Thank you. Okay. Thanks a lot. God bless stay warm up there You too. I will all right. Bye. Bye all right, good questions as always

01:06:56

I uh, I do, uh, I suppose

01:07:02

I should just credit um The call screener with the quality of the the calls that come through He says that we would not believe how many he tosses

01:07:20

Seriously, how many how many today? Five Five people you

01:07:27

Okay, so i'm going to amend everything. I was saying you will not believe the nastiness of our call screen

01:07:34

So to so to all of you who are mad right now because you didn't get on It's rich's fault has nothing to do with me.

01:07:41

I wanted simply to say That we have the best audience in the world, but I can't say it.

01:07:47

Thanks to rich. Okay, I just So address all hate mail to uh to rich pierce at um, yeah

01:07:56

He gets it. Anyways, he gets all the hate mail. Anyhow, so that's just sort of how it works. So there you go

01:08:02

All right So we will be back on uh, wednesday

01:08:09

And then we're going to interrupt everyone's black friday sales We're actually going to go does anyone really go who would want to do that anymore?

01:08:17

But anyways, uh, we'll be we'll be back on black friday, uh as well. Whatever that is supposed to mean these days

01:08:23

Uh, so three programs this week to make up, uh in penance for for last week