Steve Richardson on the Church in Canada

Conversations That Matter

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:12

Welcome to another edition of the Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris. We have a guest with us this morning,

00:18

Steve Richardson. He lives in Canada. I know most of you listening are in the United States, but in Canada right now, the lockdown situation, depending

00:28

I think on what province you're in, it probably is better or worse, but they're certainly taking the

00:33

COVID situation a lot more seriously even now than we are here, to the point that Steve Richardson, who wanted to keep meeting with his church, he's a pastor, has been essentially excommunicated from his

00:48

Presbytery that he's part of. And that's a fancy word for some of you who don't know what that means.

00:54

It's his association or denomination that he's in. So I'm very thankful,

01:00

Steve, thank you for coming on and being willing to share your story with us. Yeah, thanks so much, John, for having me.

01:05

And I forgot to mention, I should mention this too, if anyone wants to check out Steve Richardson's writings, canadarevival .blogspot

01:13

.com, canadarevival .blogspot .com. So Steve, why don't we just get into this?

01:19

What is going on? What just happened to you? Yeah, so I'll maybe start at the beginning, just share that when

01:27

COVID began, I was actually on a sabbatical and it was our conviction that we needed to continue to gather for worship.

01:36

So we continued to do so. Most of the congregation was not because the elders had decided that it was best to comply.

01:44

We didn't know what was going on, but we believed it was the right thing to do. So I took my family and by taking my family to worship, put the limit, we exceeded the limit, which at the time,

01:54

I can't remember if it was five or 10. And so when Presbytery learned that we had done that, there was a measure of outrage and began to take steps to to see if they could stop me from doing that.

02:09

A little shortly after that, I wrote a letter, an open letter to the churches. And this was in April calling on the churches to open in obedience to Jesus Christ.

02:19

And that letter received a fair bit of attention at the time.

02:25

Complaints came in actually from Presbyterians from across the world, even,

02:30

I think, Australia. And so Presbytery met and at the time called on all the churches to comply, to follow the rules and so on.

02:41

But we continued to meet. I came off sabbatical because we worked what needed to be done.

02:47

And so we've been gathering. Of course, there was a period like there was in the

02:52

U .S. where the government allowed us to get back to some sense of normalcy, although masks were still required and all that kind of thing.

03:02

But we didn't believe it was right to require God's people to put a piece of cloth on their faces in order for them to come to worship.

03:12

We don't believe it is our right as leaders in the Church of Christ to make laws.

03:18

And so we just continued. And that went well for many months. And then in December, we, of course, learned that we were going to head into another lockdown and that the numbers for worship would be severely restricted.

03:34

And so we communicated with the congregation that we're going to continue to gather. And that very evening,

03:40

I received a phone call from the police. They had been informed that we would be gathering the next

03:47

Lord's Day. So somebody had already reported that we would be doing so. And that's when the trouble with the police began.

03:55

And so in February, I received my first charge.

04:01

The week following, I received a second charge. Each charge carries with it a maximum of one year in prison and $100 ,000 in fines.

04:09

I'm now up to six charges. So I face a maximum of six years in prison, $600 ,000 in fines for simply gathering the congregation to worship in obedience to Jesus Christ.

04:22

Now, this has been an interesting season for a number of reasons. But we've seen the church grow. There's people across southern

04:29

Ontario who believe that they need to be gathering. They are effectively, for a period of time, sheep without shepherds because they were not allowed to gather for worship.

04:39

And they long to be with God's people. And so our numbers were growing and things, in that sense, were well.

04:46

Our worship services were beautiful. The sense of the spirit of God among us seemed as if God was causing his face to shine upon us.

04:54

But then we ran into some difficulty. And to make a long story short, I was constrained to resign.

05:02

And Presbytery met last Monday. And so that would be not last night, but the week before.

05:10

And I was censured and excommunicated for being schismatic, for breaking procedure, for breaking my vows, apparently.

05:22

All this without trial. And as one presbyter put it, I was being censured for the last year and a half.

05:30

Wow. There's so many questions with that. And I'm so sorry you're going through this. First question

05:35

I have, I want to start with what you said at the end there. The Canadian Presbytery of the

05:41

ARP, you said they censored you and they excommunicated you. That word excommunication sounds extremely serious.

05:49

I mean, are they essentially saying you're a false teacher kind of level? You're not even a

05:56

Christian? I mean, what does that mean in the lingo that they use? What do they mean by that? Well, it's difficult to know for sure.

06:04

I can certainly read what was communicated with me. In the meeting, there was one minister who indicated that he doubted

06:15

I was a brother. And so there is certainly that suggestion there.

06:21

But the way that it is worded is this, that when a member or minister is under discipline and wishes to withdraw his membership rather than face the censure of the church, the church court shall act by removing his name from the role, which is the theological equivalent of excommunication without judicial process.

06:43

So what was interesting about that is that the first part that when a minister who's under discipline joins another group.

06:52

So I joined Vanguard Presbytery, but I wasn't under discipline when

06:57

I did. But the presbytery moved very quickly last Monday to make sure that I was under church discipline and then to say, therefore, you are excommunicated.

07:07

So they could have just let you kind of go and be with Vanguard Presbytery and they wouldn't have had to meet with you or talk to you again if they didn't want to.

07:17

But is this a signaling to the government or to other people that he's not part of us?

07:23

We kind of wash our hands of him. What's the purpose of going through this? I think there's probably a number of things that work.

07:30

I think that's part of it. There's no question that they wanted to distance themselves from what

07:35

I am doing. And the poor witness, as I hear that that is to the world.

07:41

And I think also, of course, there's an issue with the local church. So part of the story is that because of the difficulties that I was having with the presbytery and the fact that we could not walk together, we're so far apart in terms of understanding of who is head and king of the church and all the ramifications of that, that it was time to lead the church out of the presbytery.

08:05

And our elders were unanimous on that. And we brought that to the congregation. But to make a long story short, that was not supported by the members of the church completely.

08:16

It failed. And so I think that's part of the issue here, too, is that the presbytery wanted to signal something to the congregation as well.

08:28

So other question I have here, speaking of the congregation, you started meeting and you've been doing that, as I understand, you said for a year and a half, just about.

08:38

Did you have any problems in the congregation as far as people getting COVID or dying because you chose to meet?

08:46

Anything like that going on? Or is everyone pretty healthy? Everything seems to be going smoothly.

08:52

And the government and your denomination as well is still mortified that you keep doing this.

09:01

You know what? Everyone's doing fine. So as expected, no one's died.

09:08

We know of some who have had COVID, whether they got it from going to church or not, we don't know.

09:16

But everyone's well and no one has died. So that doesn't surprise us.

09:23

But based on the fact that we've been gathering like this for so long, you would think that that would become something of a surprise to the narrative anyway.

09:32

You know, I live in Virginia, which it was a little more of one of the strict lockdown states.

09:38

But the part of Virginia I live in is very conservative and just people weren't following the guidelines really that strictly.

09:48

Churches were meeting, even some businesses during the height of lockdown still met. As I traveled farther north, you know, drive through Pennsylvania, drive into New York, it became a different world.

09:59

People were more afraid. I saw people hiking outside with no one around, with masks on, this kind of thing.

10:04

And I get the impression, I haven't gone to Canada, but if you keep going farther north and you get to Canada, it gets even more that way.

10:12

Is this just still the reality, even a year and a half? And I know this might be obvious to you, but people listening in the

10:17

United States, are people still walking around with masks on even outside in Canada right now?

10:25

Oh, absolutely. In fact, from time to time, we will see something coming from the

10:30

States, a stadium filled with people. And we just can't believe it's 2021.

10:36

I mean, to us, it's two completely different worlds. Here, people are still wearing the masks everywhere.

10:45

Outside, people are still afraid. And of course, that's because the government and the media here are just continuing to to send the same message of fear to the people.

10:59

And sadly, the church has been complicit in that. Interesting. Okay, so this is what you're operating in.

11:06

It's not, you're not operating in, you know, Mississippi or Arkansas in the United States, where, you know, the population is going to support you.

11:12

This is something that's very different. You stick out when you do this up there. I wanted to ask just about, you mentioned something about ministry kind of flourishing more in this time.

11:25

Can you expand on that a little bit? You said you've seen people coming that have realized they should be meeting.

11:32

They should be going to church. Are you the only church in town? Are you kind of, if someone wants to go to church, are you the only option?

11:40

You know, it's sad to say not the only church, merely the only church in town, but the only church within, say, an hour and a half radius.

11:49

And if you want to find another church that's meeting, you have to go to another denomination. So as far as I know, for some time, we were the only

11:57

Reformed church that was a confessional church, whether confessional, continental,

12:05

Presbyterian, or even Baptist that was meeting. There were, there are some other Baptist churches that were meeting, but so few and far between that people had to drive.

12:14

We had a family driving three hours to be with us on the

12:19

Lord's Day. Wow. Family driving two hours to be with us. But there's such a longing among those people.

12:27

But I can say in terms of just what was happening in our worship services, when people know that coming to church, they could be fined and they had to walk by the police cars sitting in the parking lot, observing them to get into the sanctuary.

12:44

There's something different about those people. I mean, there's something different about the worship because they know it's costly or at least could be costly.

12:51

And it changes everything, the worship, it changes the praying, the preaching. I've never sensed so much of God's presence among us.

13:00

And when we came out of the lockdown, as much as we felt relief because, well,

13:06

I don't want to go to jail. At the same time, I felt a sense of also sorrow because there was something so precious in that time.

13:17

That's amazing. And that's something that despite all the fines and other things that you're going through,

13:23

I'm sure that's one of the things you can look to to say, no, this is right. This is worth it. I wouldn't trade this in to be loved by the world.

13:33

James Coates, I know, got a lot of press in a way because he had gone to jail. They had come down.

13:39

And basically, I think they're still probably preventing them from meeting. Are you in a different area then?

13:45

Is that why they're just observing you and finding you instead of arresting you? Why is there a discrepancy there?

13:51

Yeah, I think it's a provincial issue. In Alberta, they've taken things a little bit differently than here in Ontario or, say, even

13:57

British Columbia. In Ontario, their approach has been to charge.

14:04

And so there's a few of us who've been just accumulating charge upon charge. And we haven't had our day in court yet to see what will come of that.

14:12

But so I'm not the only minister who has been charged repeatedly for gathering.

14:19

OK. What can people do? Because I know there's people here who want to support you and probably other pastors in Canada going through the same thing.

14:27

Is there a fund set up? Or is there like a legal Christian organization that's going to represent you?

14:34

Well, in my case, I hired a Christian lawyer. So we've been directing people to the

14:41

Sermon Audio website. There's an option to give there. And if people want to support in that way, that would be tremendous.

14:49

Number one thing I would say, of course, is certainly pray for us. Pray for the church in Canada, because she's in a very sorry state.

14:57

And I would add that when your turn comes, and it's going to come, do not let the government or the church take the crown from Christ's head.

15:08

We have seen here something that I would never have dreamed I would see.

15:14

In 2019, everything was well in my own presbytery. And we all thought the church was rather healthy.

15:22

We were all quite pleased with ourselves. And we've seen something in the last months that has just shaken us to the core.

15:28

I never dreamed I would see so many churches simply capitulate to the government.

15:34

We're surrounded really by what are, in effect, state churches. And I'm personally convinced to just add this.

15:44

I'm personally convinced that what we're seeing right now is a kind of Christianity that something like the

15:52

Judas Christianity that we see. You remember how when that woman

15:57

Mary poured that ointment upon Jesus, that he was indignant because he saw this as a waste.

16:04

He thought about the poor, how they could benefit. And he saw this going to Jesus. And the only one who benefited was

16:10

Christ. And as I've observed what's gone on in the last year and a half, I've become more and more convinced that that's how

16:16

Christians are thinking. And they might think about the government, or they might think about their neighbor. They might think about family.

16:23

They might even think about themselves. They might think about the poor. There's a host of things people are thinking about. But the one they're not thinking about is

16:29

Jesus. And so there's this tendency to think that if the only one who benefits is Jesus, then we better not do it.

16:36

And so here is worship. And everyone's saying, if you do it, look what could happen.

16:43

And they're saying, I don't want that to happen. And that troubles me because, of course, the heart of Christianity is that we are delighted to put ourselves out in the service of our master so that if he is the only one who benefits, we'll gladly do it.

16:56

And if it means our lives, then we'll gladly give them. Yeah, well, that's beautifully said.

17:03

And I'm reminded of the great commandment to love God and love your neighbor. And it seems like the only thing, and even though it's a warped view of loving your neighbor, the only thing that so many

17:14

Christians have been focusing on is the love of neighbor. And they forget about the love of God. And I respect you for keeping the love of God alive.

17:21

And God's rewarded you for it, it sounds like, with these worship services. And well, we're going to pray for you.

17:29

We're going to pray that the Lord gives you a good day in court. But even if your day in court goes poorly from a human standard, that the church, the true church, can come around you and can support you.

17:42

And I'll put the link in the info section for those who want to donate or even just send a message.

17:47

I'm sure, is there an email option on Sermon Audio? Yeah, excuse me. There is a way, certainly. So we'll send what we can, money and emails and prayers on your behalf and the church there.

18:02

And God bless you. Thank you so much for just sharing with us, taking your time to do that. Thank you so much for having me.