Can You Become A God?

Apologia Utah

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Okay. Well, I got a gospel question for you then, because that's what we're out here doing, sharing the gospel.

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So a question. Isaiah 43 .10. Are you familiar with the verse?

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Not off the top of my head. I read it, but if you give me a couple lines of it, I might recall it.

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Let's see. This one right here. Okay, so it says, Behold, I am the

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Lord. There is none formed before me, none shall there be after me. Right? Isaiah 44 .6.

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Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts. I am the first and I am the last.

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Besides me, there is no God. Right? So these are scriptures from the Bible, Isaiah. I'm just reading them, quoting them.

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So that's what the Bible says, right? But the LDS Church teaches that there are many gods, that there are an endless number of gods, and in fact that you can become one one day.

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Right? That there was actually a God before the God of the Bible that we're talking about. So what

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I would say is, how do you reconcile that difference between what the Bible says, which I would say is our standard of truth, and what the

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LDS Church is teaching? What do you think my response would be to that? I don't know.

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I've heard a few different responses. If you had a minute, I could share two scriptures

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I think that'll help explain what I believe. Okay. Yep. There's two scriptures, one in the

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Old Testament and one in the New, that I think illustrate my belief. And I think really the difference in our beliefs is largely semantic.

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Have you ever heard the story of C .S. Lewis? Yep. I know who C .S. Lewis is. So you know how he was an atheist, and his friends who were

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Christians of different denominations talked with him, and eventually he came to believe in Christ, though he never became Catholic, like his friends wanted.

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But he wrote some amazing works on the nature of God. And I think they're quite spectacular.

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And... I can pull up the scriptures... While you're doing that, do you think C .S. Lewis was a monotheist or a polytheist?

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I believe monotheist. Honestly, he believed in Jesus Christ, and that he was his savior.

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I believe he was a member of the Church of... You also believe he was God too, right? Yeah. I believe he was a member of the

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Church of England. So I don't... I'm not familiar with all of the specific doctrines of the

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Anglican Church, but I know a little bit. So while you pull up those quotes, I want to ask you this.

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Do you believe that if you have the wrong god, that you have a god that cannot save you?

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That's a fascinating question. The real question is, if somebody believes in things that are different about a god, say

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Judaism or Islam, they believe in a god, and they even draw from many of the same texts.

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But if they believe different things about him, will they be saved? Would you say that's a fair parallel?

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I would say that they wouldn't be saved, and I'll tell you why. But yeah, would you say that's a fair...

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That they believe things about God, a different god. Sure. Sure. Yes. Then I think,

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I think truly if we believe the wrong, merciful, and loving, and so he'll work to try and draw everyone to the truth, even if they'll only accept parts of it.

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But I do believe he invites everyone to accept the full truth, and hopes that we will. And I do believe we'll be judged based on the decisions we make, when the full truth is presented to us.

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I do think though, that it's better to accept some of God's truth, and perhaps be misled, or miss something else, than to reject all of it.

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Sure. And I would say that you're right in that, if you don't have the one truth, that you don't have the truth at all.

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Right? Because there's only one truth. Would you say that, would you agree with that? There can only be one truth?

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Objective truth. There is objective truth. Yes. Though I do admit, I think that people can sometimes believe, or come to know parts of it, but sometimes miss the mark with other parts.

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Sure. Sure. So, the scriptures, John 14, 6, Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life.

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No man comes to the Father, but by me. Right? I believe that. So there's only one way to God, and that is through faith in Jesus Christ.

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There is a straight and narrow path. So we can show that there is only one truth, there's only one way to God, and if you get

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God wrong, then you have a God who cannot save you. Would you agree with that?

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Can't save you. You believe because you're not creating your own God. Sure. But I guess, let me rephrase it this way.

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If you don't have the truth about salvation, then you don't have salvation.

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You don't have faith in the one true God. Would you agree with that? Objective truth.

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What do you think about somebody who came to know part of the truth? Say a Jew in the first century, who before missionaries reached him, died.

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Do you think that he would be saved? No. And I'll tell you why. Same verse.

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I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but through me. So that Jesus clearly saying that there is only one way to the

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Father, and that's through him. And the way that we are saved, maybe you would be able to parallel this, is through faith in Christ alone.

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Would you say that you are saved through faith in Christ alone? That's the only way to be saved? I believe you are saved through Christ's grace alone.

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I do not think our faith saves us. Instead, it is his grace. Yes, it's a gift that he's given us, right?

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So grace is a gift given by God that we don't earn. I think that's true. I think this is where we would differ.

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I believe that God, Jesus Christ, he's provided for ways for anyone to be saved if they will accept the gospel through him.

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Absolutely. I don't have time to pull up the scripture. There's two scriptures I will pull up in response to your first question.

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Jesus Christ, when he was speaking to the Pharisees, had them come to him, and they were quite upset because they believed he had forgiven somebody's sins.

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And they said, you can't do that. And he said... Why do you think they said that? Because they believed only

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God had authority to do that. Were they wrong? No, God is the only one who has authority to do that.

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The difference is they didn't recognize he was the son of God, which he pointed out, and they called it blasphemy and wanted to stone him. And he said some of the effect of, why do you call it blasphemy that I call myself the son of God, when it's true?

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Is it not written in your law? I said, you're gods and children of the most high. Why then would you say it's blasphemy if I say

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I'm the son of God? Now, that refers to a scripture in Psalms, I couldn't pull up the exact chapter,

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I think it's 86, where it says, you're all gods and children of the most high. Now, we of course differ in our specific beliefs.

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But I do believe it is through Christ's grace only that we are saved. But I do believe he has a plan for that Jew in the first century who believed all the truth he had received and died.

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I believe God has a way to preach it to him, so that even after death he has the opportunity to accept or reject

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Christ and the fullness of his gospel. So let me respond to what you've said.

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You've said that Jesus said that he was the son of God, but that's not what he said.

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He said that I am God. He said, before Abraham was, what is

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I am? What is I am? I am means Jehovah, means God. I couldn't quote the scripture exactly, but the point

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I was trying to make is that the language of using gods with a little g is not saying that somebody becomes

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God or replaces him. Rather, I believe it's a scriptural term, and this is why I brought up C .S. Lewis. He even uses it.

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Not saying that anybody replaces God, but rather saying that when somebody is saved and lives with God, they become angels to God essentially.

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They learn and grow and inherit part of his glory. As it says in Revelations, I think

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Jesus said something along the lines of they sit down on the throne with him. It's not that anybody replaces

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God, but rather that God shares his grace and goodness and power and glory with everyone.

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So C .S. Lewis said, in a way, he said that if we saw these people now, one might be, if they didn't have proper understanding, be tempted to worship such a being, though it wouldn't be correct.

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And I think that's true. We see people who would see angels in the Old Testament and would mistakenly think that was somebody they should worship.

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And so I think God does share his grace. And yes, the language our church uses is gods, which is an inflammatory language to many people.

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But I believe it's a reference to those scriptures that simply point out our heritage as children of God if we follow him and accept

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Christ's grace. So I know exactly the verse that you're talking about, about gods. And the reference in Psalm is to the

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Old Testament where they had judges, right? I have heard that explanation. So they had judges.

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God is in this translation meaning judges. Meaning judges. So they had judges that they put over the people. And what he's literally telling the

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Pharisees is that you called these judges gods at the time.

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So why are you now upset when I call myself God? And the reason they were upset because they called him

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God, because he called himself God, is because he wasn't referring to himself as a judge as they did in the

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Old Testament. He was referring to them as the Almighty God, the one, only, true

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God, Yahweh, Jehovah, right? So my response is going back to Isaiah 44 .6

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and Isaiah 43 .10 where that was written to, like you said, a monotheistic people, right?

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Who believed in one God. So obviously those scriptures are saying there is only one

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God and I am he. None shall be formed before me. None will come after me.

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I am the beginning, the end. The Alpha Omega says, do you know of any other God? I know of not none.

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We would be calling God an idiot because he doesn't know of any other God. And I think you're right.

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Of course, my interpretation of how I believe those scriptures I think will be different. If I asked you what

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God's purpose was for this world, perhaps you might say for God's own glory. Would that be correct?

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Yes. I believe that God, while he is creating his own glory, I believe that because he is good, his purposes are not just for himself, but rather for others, specifically his children.

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And I believe he wants to help his children learn and grow and be able to inherit all of the glory and happiness and joy that we are able to receive from him.

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And where would you go, if I were to ask you, based on what you believe, where would you go to give me those references?

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Where would you go in your belief system? Would you go to the Bible? I believe it can be taught by the

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Bible. But I, again, also do believe that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

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He does not change. He called prophets anciently and does as well today. And I believe that he never ceases to speak.

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And since the Bible is his word, I do believe that there are other books which contain his word.

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And so I would go to them. And I believe it is the spirit of the Lord which speaks with, as he says in Kings, with a still, small voice that I think helps people discern truth from error.

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Because there are many people who teach falsely. And there is always the possibility that I or others have been deceived.

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Sure. And I think if we pursue with a true and honest heart, and we are trying to listen to the spirit, and studying his scriptures, we will be led in the end to choose according to the desires of our heart, either to accept

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God's gospel and receive it, or perhaps to err and to do things that aren't right.

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So if you believe, so essentially you believe that if you really desire to know who

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God is, he'll bring an opportunity, he'll work with you. And that's why I think the Jew in the first century, who might not have heard of Jesus, would receive as much opportunity as God could give.

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Because of that, I think even after death, God would provide a way that every child who wanted to know him, you know, the person born in China or Australia, you know, before Christ was born, who maybe didn't have the opportunity,

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I believe God would know their hearts and would provide an opportunity that they could hear the good word of God, of Jesus Christ.

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Do you think he could be doing that to you right now? I think he could be. I appreciate what you guys are doing, because I served in Alabama for two years as a missionary, and I can tell you,

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Southern Baptists are strong in their beliefs, as well as Pentecostals and Methodists. And we had many conversations like this, where, frankly, they didn't believe the same things

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I believe. But I think the important thing was that they had that desire, they had the scriptures, and I believe that if that happened, and though we disagree,

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I think God would work through us to bring us as near to the truth as we will accept. And so I'll take these documents.

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Thank you. I'll take a look at them. Because I do believe you deserve that opportunity. There is always the chance.

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I do not believe correctly. I just hope we'll treat each other with love and stability, and that through Christ, we'll be able to grow together as brethren.

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That way, all our differences will be smoothed over in the end. And that's why we're actually out here, and that's why we are sharing this message, because the

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Bible says there's one way to God, right? There is one. It's a narrow path. It's a narrow path. Straight into the gate narrows the way.

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I misquote it right here. So I say that because if you have a wrong

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Jesus, the wrong Jesus, you have the wrong God, and you have a

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God who cannot save you. And I say that to the atheist. I say that to the

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LDS. I say that to other Christians. If you're believing in the wrong God, you have a

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God that cannot save you, and therefore your salvation is not secure. And how could we know that our salvation is secure or not besides going back to God's holy word, the scriptures, and the absolute authority, and going back and saying, what does it say about the nature of God?

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What does it say about how I am saved? Who is Jesus? If I have the wrong Jesus, just because I call him

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Jesus doesn't mean I have the right one, the one that can save me from my sin. And it says that we are saved in the scriptures through faith alone in Christ alone, right?

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Not that I might boast, but it is a gift of God, as you have said. Not works. But where the difference is, is that the

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Bible, and you've quoted it tonight, Jesus never calls himself specifically, in those scriptures that you're talking about, the

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Son of God. He calls himself, like you said, Jehovah God. And because the

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Bible is written to a monotheistic people, people who believe in one God, Jesus refers to himself as God.

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Why did they pick up stones to stone him? And this is what you said earlier. You believe it is because he was, they believed he was misusing the term that they use in the scriptures.

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They were referring to judges. But you believe that... No, no. Well, he said, why do you call...

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They called them gods. Why are you upset about that? But they were upset... Because he wasn't a judge.

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No, no, no. No, they were upset because he said, I am. And the

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Jews knew exactly what he was saying because they said, our father is Abraham. And who did

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Abraham stand in front of, right? I am. That's how God referred to himself.

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So he didn't say, I am the Son of God. He said, I am the God. And that's why they pick up stones to stone him.

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And that is why we're sharing this message as well is because I know that you've been taught by the church,

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LDS Church, that Jesus is a God, the Son of God, but he is not the

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God, the one true Holy God. And that is the God who has the power, like you said, to say, your sins are forgiven.

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Get up and walk, right? In that scripture that you quoted. He's not the little

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God, the God below the God, that was the only begotten of the Father, but he is the

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God. And that's why I say, we may be saying Jesus, but the Bible speaks of Jesus in one way and the church,

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I believe, is teaching Jesus in another way. What was your name? Dusty. Nice to meet you, Dusty. I'm Tyler.

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Tyler, good to meet you too. Andy. This is my daughter, Amnesty. She's out here hanging out.

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Nice to meet you. Yeah. I appreciate what you guys are doing. Yeah. I still believe differently. Yeah, yeah.

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But I appreciate it because it shows you have concern for my soul, seeing that you believe you found the one way you desire that I would be saved too.

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And so I'm very grateful for that. Thank you. Yeah. I will take these documents, but I do believe that the

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Bible teaches a little differently, but I appreciate the thought and the intent. Awesome, man.

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Would you do me a favor tonight? Got King James. Yes, King James. Read John 8.

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Okay, just read it. I'm actually reading John right now. Perfect. There you go. I'll finish reading John through.

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I can probably do that tonight. All right, and you'll see what I'm talking about when Jesus refers to himself there.

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Wait for the references. All right, man. Well, thanks for your time, brother.

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You have a good night. Thank you, Dusty. Yes. Andy. Good luck with your studies as well, brother.