Homework for the Cruise then Answering Catholic Answers

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic here is James white.

Hello testing one two three. Hello. Hi. Nice to nice to join you. Now why would why would that be down. Do you do do you sleepwalk over here and just sort of you know play with buttons. I have no words.

I I had no words. You can tell we do it. We do a lot of testing before the program. Actually we're testing everything else. We just I just we just never figured that anybody would play with our microphones anyway.

Must be the same guy who ran the The all the paper towels down to the toilet over the weekend, he's must have a poltergeist running. Sat there looking watching the video. Who did this, you know, we come in and you know There's all these paper towels have been stuffed in toilet and it's like who did this and we watched the whole pretty much the whole weekends worth the video and you couldn't get into that that bathroom without passing one of our video cameras and There was nobody that went in there.

I.

Think a bug got on the sensor. Oh.

Well that have to be a big bug and we all know what kind of bug that would be and I don't want to think About that. So it's Phoenix. It is Phoenix. Yes, we grow them big out here sort of like, Texas, I guess but anyway Welcome to dividing line.

Easter Pageant Outreach, the New Track, and Books for the Cruise

It is the week of the Easter pageant starting this evening. We will be out in Mesa, Arizona. Passing at our new track, which I should have a copy of with me, but I don't. But rich has one out there and we are currently running them in the other room actually and I wrote it and I'm very thankful that Micah has made it look much more readable than it was before the lost tomb and other myths about Jesus looks really nice and What we did is we?

Are working off of the the tomb story? Makes sense. I know a little something about it and We talked about that and then we talked a little about the blasphemy challenge and the assertions that Jesus is just built off of these other religions like Dionysus and and Osiris and things like that.

Then we transitioned into those are myths made up by secular people and then we transitioned into religious myths about Jesus so we had something about Jehovah's Witnesses and. And Then we transition into the myths presented by Mormonism and of course most of people we've asked and tracked out to our LDS and so that is the new tract we will be distributing starting this evening on the street corners in Mesa, Arizona pray for us for our efforts our safety and pray likewise that If anyone else shows up to witness the Mormons that they will be serious and actually know what they're talking about.

We've had some really interesting experiences out there in Mesa over the years. I've mentioned them many times. I'm dividing line. We've had I remember I think the second maybe the second year. We were out there, maybe the third.

When we were really doing an outreach we had this guy who thought the best way to get rid of Mormon missionaries Was to give them one of the temple handshakes to so offend them that they would go running off.

And it's like you're trying to explain this guy dude. We don't want them to run off. We want to talk to them. Hello, you know and that you know, they're they're people who think it's really cool to yeah to do.

You know the pale ale stuff and and all this others. It's like oh, man. Then of course was one year that the the door showed up. The door Christian Fellowship not open door the door the sort of cultic group, you know.

And they they showed up and they're passing out jack chicks big daddy tracks. And if you don't know jack chicks big daddy tracks, they are the anti evolution tracks the jack chicks jack chip puts out and which Mormons.

And they they just blew right by us right onto the property, you know, we don't go on the property we don't trespass, you know that kind of thing and they went right in amongst the people and they had to round them all up and and So once they got booted off the property, they're staying around a man.

The Mormons found out real quickly that these people Were just so easy to tie in knots. They knew nothing about Mormonism and so it was it made for a very interesting Very very interesting period of time and of course, you know, the sad thing is and you can't really fault them for this that the Mormons aren't going to differentiate between Those folks and us and that's the that's the real thing.

I really really really hope that the King James only folks. You know. Had a flat tire in Ajo or something, you know, and and couldn't find the right the right tire for the car. Whatever it just just stay away.

You don't know what you're talking about. You make a mockery of the gospel. It's just so sad these folks are going to have quite a great deal to answer for someday before the throne for those on the webcam don't don't I am holding up before the The webcam which isn't really much of webcam because it only shows one image every 10 seconds, but hey, whatever I'm showing to the audience in watching via the webcam.

You know I noticed today rich that I I just I printed out the graphic for the front cover and there was a copy in here. From Toronto to Emmaus did not have black behind it on what was sent to us. I Sort of like it without the black personally.

I think maybe we should change that in the future. But anyway from Toronto to Emmaus My copies, of course, I mentioned the blog I got 20 copies to to get out to some folks and things like that and then there the others are coming in and We will be shipping them out as soon as they arrived to those of you who have pre-ordered them and very happy with how the book came out and You may have noticed there are some more endorsements for the book on the the blog yesterday I got some other books to what I wanted to show you and again.

You can only see this if you've got the webcam up. I don't know how long I can hold this up. The heaviest books I have ever gotten from my library are all that sounded interesting. Everything just changed all over the place.

Rich is experimenting again. It just went poofy. Yeah, that reminds me of when I ran sound at North Phoenix and there was a there was a Amplifier that would sometimes be there and sometimes not and then just all of a sudden It would pop in and Richard Jackson did not like that at all and I understand why anyway.

Some of the heaviest books I mean the paper in this thing is you know, it's that clay type paper super high quality. I mean this thing must weigh at least 10 pounds maybe more but I found it really funny.

This is the message of the Quran translated explained by Muhammad Assad and That is not the same guy from 24 just so you know. Though it sounds very much like the same guy and this is this is basically what would be called a Quranic commentary.

That's fear. But some huge big thing. But I'm gonna show it up here to the to the thing and see if you can. Yeah, I think you can actually see that right there if I can I'm having to hold this thing way out.

How strong is.

I think your 10 seconds are up. Okay good.

It right on the edge of the papers it has stamped Compliments of the compliments of the Council of American Islamic relations www .care .com. So here's here's this huge Quranic commentary and on the side they have stamped I mean it was like 40 bucks and on the side they have stamped Compliments of care .com.

Well, that's just what I want. My library is something from care. That's just that's great. Also, I Have oh, yeah, there it is. Okay. Many of you have been asking about the books For the upcoming cruise and the class and I can give you some of those books Right now and you can you can start collecting them and start getting them getting them read.

There is the new edition third revised edition of the Apostolic Preaching of the Cross by Leon Morris. That's an Erdman's publication the Apostolic Preaching of the Cross by Leon Morris. That's could go into a lot of the the issues that we need to address.

We have a book by Gary Long the new edition from 2006 third edition of Gary Long's book definite atonement and I've I mentioned to someone in channel yesterday. Yeah, definitely. Oh, yeah, I've got that.

Do you have the 2006? No, so we'll want to have the same one and So we might want to get that even if you have the older edition then we have one. And and any decent seminary You're going to be reading stuff by people who are not necessarily 100 on your page.

Okay, and That's how you learn Discernment, that's how you learn to Take the good and the bad, you know The wheat and the chaff and so on and so forth. And so we have a a book by Martin Hengel Called crucifixion Fortress Press anything from Fortress Press is going to cost you 14 arms and 13 legs.

I Discovered that when I was in seminary. But Fortress Press's book crucifixion in the ancient world and the folly of the message of the cross by Martin Hengel it's a translation from the German and I Was reading it while my oil was being changed yesterday and Fascinating information on the historical context of crucifixion the fact that people just They did not even want to make reference to it Because it was considered just just a horrible horrible horrible way To to die.

I thought I saw movement there. I really honestly thought I saw movement in the in the Stairwell there, which is really sort of freaky. Of course could be a bird. Would be that'd be great to have a bird inside the office.

Rich and I are both looking at the security cameras had popped up a motion Detection thing in an area where there's there's not supposed to be anybody then again. Be careful that you don't get attacked by a mad towel dispenser.

Rich rich is going off to check these things if all sudden you hear me scream and in a door slamming and things like that that's because I'm going to see something in the in the. He's making faces at the camera now from the other side of the office anyways, this is live webcast we're wasting our time here.

Those are three of the books then I was looking. I was going to use Owen's death of death, but I noticed that in The Multi-volume banner of truth series of Owen's books. I think it's banner of truth.

I don't have it. I have it on CD. Volume 10 of Owen's works has death of death, but it also has his treatise on justice as an attribute of God specifically in response to those who claim that God could forgive sin without Fulfilling the demands of the law.

Now if you know anything about Islam and you know anything about what we're doing this class. You know why that would be vital. So I'm probably gonna use volume 10 if you can't afford the I think it's about $19 through solid ground for that one volume.

You can get this the CD version, you know, and I know a lot of folks, you know. Some folks like having it Electronically and in printed form if you can afford to do so if you can't you can read on the screen.

And you know PDF format from the ages library CD-ROM but probably do all of volume 10 because I think that would be very useful then I would putting together a PDF of scholarly articles to go along with that and that will be our reading assignments for the.

For the class there is a possibility of one other book. That's I do not have In front of me right now because it hasn't arrived yet. I want to double-check it make sure that the current edition would be what we want to use etc. Etc.

Clarifying the Earlier Roman Catholic Email Response

Alright before we get back to the Catholic answers broadcast I didn't finish last week. You may recall that during this period of time last week. I responded to an email that had been sent to me in regards to Roman Catholicism and the Individual who I responded to caught the program I guess just yesterday in the archive.

And wrote back to me and since there were some misunderstandings here I wanted to take a few moments to clarify them because if she was Concerned and confused by a couple of things I said then maybe others were as as well.

She said that she had listened to the program. And she said also yes I was well schooled in what scripture only and faith only mean in my peculiar brand of Protestantism. Which she does not identify. There is not the added word infallible.

I was taught the Bible is the sole authority in life not the sole infallible authority. Now I would stop right there and say okay. Then there may have been some issues because I mean just on a basic simple factual logical level.

How can the Bible be the the sole authority of? How to rebuild an automatic transmission? I'm watching rich in there working with the phones again, and he's looking at the Manual to the phones. He's not looking up Deuteronomy.

Okay now obviously I recognize that You know the overarching themes of the Lordship of Christ and things like that can you know provide the foundation for all of of? Human epistemology, okay, that's fine, but the fact remains there are sub authorities.

There are authorities beneath scripture. There are authorities outside of scripture that address issues that scripture itself does not address and So that might indicate that whatever this peculiar brand of Protestantism was Was non-catholic simply because it was not because it was knowledgeably.

That's that's an important distinction, I'm sort of disappearing out of my headsets here at the moment. Then however we are told that that is semantics as the meaning of Sola, I'm gone now. I just disappeared.

Okay. Thank you as the Meaning of solo scriptura is that only the Bible is infallibly and divinely inspired. That's not really what solo scriptura means. Solo scriptura means the scriptures are a soul infallible rule of faith now they are because they are Inspired but it is not correct to say that the doctrine of solo scriptura is Coextensive with and to be defined equally with the doctrine of the inspiration of scripture because Obviously the scriptures might teach that there are other inspired sources.

They don't but they could and that's the whole point. All right, so I want to make sure that's understood. All scriptures inspired means only scripture is inspired to most Protestants. Well, I would point out that you would have a difficult time I think from a dogmatic perspective from the Rome Catholic perspective in saying that anything Outside of scripture is they are new stocks now I know they're Roman Catholics who venture off into saying the scripture or the the the Church's they are new sauce and things like that but how do you prove that from a dogmatic sense and even if you Prove that now you've just got another thing that Rome teaches that has no foundation in scripture whatsoever.

So, yeah when you say all scripture is inspired means only scripture is inspired. Yeah. How do you prove otherwise what else allegedly is inspired and how do you demonstrate that it is and how do you how do you?

Demonstrate from history That this was what the Apostles wanted us to believe. Or do you just simply overthrow all of that and say I don't care about any of that. I am simply going to follow whatever Rome teaches me and then you have a very Small circle that you're arguing him.

And here's what I'm afraid got lost. I the the email I got says as to your comment about you have to interpret the interpreter. That is my point exactly the only way to know for certain What the author of sacred scripture means by what he wrote is to consult him directly.

The Holy Spirit is the author and therefore is the only infallible interpreter of scripture. We disagree on how we accomplish the task of consulting the Holy Spirit in Determining meaning the Bible. You hold to private study and I hold to listen to what the church teaches about scripture.

Again, notice the the false dichotomy When I when private study that means actually studying What the original writers intended in their language and in their context in the inspired writings? And That's that's actually something that Rome's own leadership Highly recommends to its scholars, by the way but What church?

The idea that the church that you are following today is coextensive with the Church of Paul's day or Jesus day Is is the whole point it is not. I mean on any level I've made this challenge many many times show me a single bishop at the Council of Nicaea who believes that a modern Roman Catholic Believes on the dogmatic authority the Roman Catholic Church.

You can't find one. You can't find one. There are things that the Roman Catholic Church teaches today as dogma day feed a must be accepted by faith that were utterly and totally unknown To the council fathers at Nicaea.

Unknown never heard of it. Never heard of it. Let alone define the gospel in that way and so Given that rather obvious fact. Then all of the the other types of arguments. Well, we've been around for 2 ,000 years.

Oh, really? Do you really want to start the historical arguments you want to start looking at all the Popes you want to start looking at all? The the times and there was no Pope or when there were two Popes when there were three Popes when the two Popes Condemned each other and and all the rest.

Do you really is that really how you find the voice of God is by? Studying the the pornocracy and trying to figure out anti Popes versus true Popes and and the Babylonian captivity the church and the and the Council of Constance and and the relationship of conciliarism you really have to do all that to find out what Paul meant in Romans 5 1 and and seemingly what I what I what I meant what I said and what I quoted from various sources was completely missed because Here you have individuals who are who are regularly recognized who were regularly regularly recognized by the papacy as Leading scholars saying I you know what the church hasn't really infallibly defined anything in Regards to the interpretation of Scripture even and even then even when you encounter texts like Matthew I mean if Matthew 1618 if there's if that hasn't been allegedly infallibly inspired what has been I mean interpreted infallibly interpreted and yet how many Catholic apologists have I heard who said well.

You know the meaning there can be polyvalent. Which means only one meaning has been Infallibly interpreted, but but there could be other meanings that have not been infallibly interpreted. And and so when you find early church fathers taking those meanings well You know those could be appropriate meanings as well as long as you don't deny this meaning.

And I mean there is no way to defeat that kind of argumentation because it has no meaning to it. It is so circular and and so just believe what I say. It's such an ipsa Dixit you can't logically refute it sort of like trying to deal with papal infallibility.

I mean let's face it the here's the functional definition of papal infallibility the Pope is right. Except when he's wrong. But when he's wrong he's not speaking as the infallible Pope. So if what he said is right, then he was infallibly right if what he said was wrong He was not infallibly wrong.

That's all there is to it and who decides when he's wrong. No one can decide when he's wrong. That's just that you know I mean if later Popes come along and say he was wrong. Then he was only wrong as a private theologian not as the bishop of the church see I mean just look at you can look at honorius.

He's condemned by ecumenical councils or 400 years when the person becomes the Pope. He has to condemn honorius as a heretic. But papal infallibility is still true, so you know when something is absolutely Undisprovable it also has no meaning.

It has no meaning and and yet people so how about. But I want that I want that kind of I want that kind of certainty. The email goes on to say you refute my assertion the Holy Spirit doesn't didn't lead me to mass by saying that it isn't possible.

That it happened because the Holy Spirit would not lead me into error. Yes, and I didn't then spend the time going back over everything that I've said in the past in debate so on so forth on the subject of the the mass and the blasphemy of the masses upon the completed and finished work of Jesus Christ and the contradiction between the mass and the book of Hebrews and Things like that and what I'm saying is if the Holy Spirit gave us the book of Hebrews the Holy Spirit did not lead you to mass to find truth.

Maybe another spirit did but not the Holy Spirit of God. Then it says finally Rome did not stitch up the torn veil and put a priest in front of it. There is no veil in the mass. The point is of course that the veil separated the people from the Holy of Holies and it was Jesus's finished work that tore that veil and removed the necessity of a sacramental priesthood that stood between the people and the Holy of Holies so they could only enter into the Holy of Holies by their representative priest once a year on Yom Kippur.

That's the point that's the point that Hebrews makes as well is that that priesthood is gone and you the fact is your your priest is offering over and over and over and over and over again the same sacrifice that perfects no one no one as long as you confess that you can go to the mass a Thousand times five thousand times ten thousand times in your life and die impure incomplete imperfect.

Then that's not The sacrifice of Hebrews chapter 10. That's not the sacrifice the mass. And so what has been completed and finished. Okay, that that sacrifice of the mass is not the sacrifice of Christ.

What has been completed and finished Christ is undone. By Rome they have stitched the veil back up so that you have to go through a priest you have to go through his sacramental Authority and you don't have that finished work.

That was the point that I was attempting to to make and So I wanted to make sure those were were clear and I think they are made even more clear in the debates that we have done on those particular subjects eight seven seven seven five three three three four one we had started listening to a Presentation on Catholic answers and I was once again, I think this was what I say.

This was 26. So it was just it was just I think was last I think it was a week ago today is when this was and so this is this is right up to date. This is exactly What how is Rome? Representing her refutations of Protestant or non-catholic beliefs today.

Do we see a Growing Understanding do we see an increasing? veracity and depth to the argumentation do we see increasing accuracy in representation of what is being said or Do we see the same old same old that was being used by Carl Keating back in the 1980s?

Retreaded today just repeated over and over and over again and Sadly what we're here hearing is Exactly that being retreaded over and over and over again, and it is to me truly an example of of how Rome because of its epistemology because of of the fact that truly if you're a Consistent Roman Catholic then you have to you can't run ahead of the church.

You have to allow the church to to make these decisions there. There's no ground. Especially when you you have to Dodge so many problems the historical problems the fact that the papacy itself would not exist out these fraudulent documents.

Without the suit is a Dorian suit is a Dorian decretals without the donation of Constantine. The the Roman Catholic papacy would not have even have developed the way it developed today. And yet we now know that those were frauds and yet the papacy is still there Foundations gone, but the edifice is still standing.

When you have to deal with things like that you can't develop much of an overly truthful form of apologetic dialogue and That's what we've been been looking at in in this particular Section here. I'm looking up here.

I just want to make sure I want to you know accuracy is important here. Yes the Yeah, Jim Burnham. It was actually on That would better Monday the 26th Jim Burnham is the one speaking and he's being sort of interviewed shall we say by Jimmy Akin, and he had to given a real sort of rough outline of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide and now they're going to go into Sola Scriptura, and we're just gonna start and stop and point out repeatedly how many times.

This kind of presentation Misrepresents the reality that it's allegedly refuting. Okay. Why don't we start with the first in Sola Scriptura? How do Protestants typically understand it, I'm sure there may be more than one way of.

That Sola Scriptura gets explained in Protestant circles, but what's your experience of how they typically articulate it?

Yeah, you're right to say that Jimmy there. You know there are lots of different explanations. And so you know the moment I give you one there'll be someone who'll say wait a minute. That's not how my pastor explains it or that's not how I've heard it explained, and it's true.

There's a variation of thinking, but but at the at the common level. You know when you talk to people the idea is basically found. You know any time you say someone has a question about Catholicism. They say well.

Where's purgatory found in the Bible or well?

I'm gonna stop right now that they just said now. You know there's different ways of explaining it, and he's saying with the common person, okay? I can understand because when I speak I will for example say you know your your common Muslim will View it this way and in general a scholar an Apologist is going to have a more polished consistent presentation than your average person.

However. We have always been an odd duck in the apologetic field and that is while While we go out to when we go out to Mesa this week we know what the average Mormon says, but we also know what the Mormon apologist says and So we want to make sure that when we represent what Mormonism as a religion teaches That we provide a refutation of its best form its most official form not necessarily the more easy layperson form where you can sort of get away with things and That unfortunately is Not what you end up hearing.

Especially in a context like this where you're allegedly Educating these Catholic listeners as to what solo scriptura is all about and so we'll continue on with that. I went a little bit long in my initial explanations.

We're gonna take our break any of your phone calls. Continue with the interview here on the dividing line right after this.

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Scheduling the Thursday Broadcast and Returning to Sola Scriptura

And welcome back to the dividing line here on a Tuesday. By the way, we've got to mention. Are we gonna change the time on Thursday? I? Mean cuz. Getting done at Five o 'clock on Thursday and then heading out.

Maybe we should broadcast live from Mesa and how would we do that? I don't know. Okay. Hey, you know.

We'll just take all this equipment out there and plug it into your Blackberry. There you go. Yeah. Battery would last about four seconds. Yeah. Well, hey, you know, we might have to go to Home Depot and get a little generator.

Set it up in the old Arby's parking lot. Yeah, there you go. I'm sure that would last about five minutes. Oh, yeah, so we'll be all around this thing. What do you guys think you're doing? Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

So I think well, yeah, we may have to do a morning show on Thursday. I think that would work out.

So, okay. All right, so that's what we'll do. I'll make sure there's don't tell anyone. We don't want anybody listening. We'll still get all sorts of complaints. I'll try to remember to. To blog that and that will make absolutely no difference whatsoever.

But hey, we will try. Let's continue. With the this discussion of the soul is complete.

How do you justify this notion of asking Mary and the Saints to intercede for you? Where's that found in the Bible? What they're going back to is this idea that everything has to be based on the Bible.

It has to be found in the Bible. If it's not in the Bible, then it's not binding.

Binding as in day feed a dogma as in something that is necessary for the people of God to believe. Yes, most most definitely if it's not in the Bible.

Then if you don't have to believe it at times at times.

Do they even go beyond that and convey the impression that it's it's not only not binding. But it's not permitted if it's not in the Bible. Yeah.

The only things that are binding for those things that were required to believe and do are Expressly those things found in Scripture. If it's not found in Scripture, we're not required. It's not required.

So it's basically the idea that that the sum total of God's revelation is found in the written.

Some total of God's revelation. Well, obviously we make clear distinction between what's called general revelation, which is in creation all around us and Special revelation, which is in scripturated.

Yes. Okay, so we're not being quite specific. But evidently referring to the concept of special revelation that which is the Anustos is that which is in Scripture, right? If you're going to say Certainly we have you have apostolic authority saying that all scripture is the Anustos.

So if you're going to make a claim that there is something outside of Scripture that is the Anustos. What grounding of authority are you going to give it? How are you going to prove that what what source are you going to use?

Can you go to the Apostles? Can you go to Jesus and remember? When you hear I played a clip just recently of geriatrics and One of the points that I that I I made in that debate actually is in the rebuttal section we didn't play that that portion on the blog yet, but He He why did play a section where I asked him he brought up the meaning of he who restrains in Paul's letter to Thessalonians and he brought up the fact that for three years Paul taught at Ephesus and we don't know what he taught while he was at Ephesus.

We don't have the class notes. We don't have the mp3 recordings three years worth of teaching and. Of course he's right. We we don't have three years worth of teaching from from Paul in the scriptures and So I asked him does Rome tell us what Paul taught?

Does Rome give us some infallible interpretation of these things that actually can be traced back to Paul? No, of course not. And so what they do is they they attack the scriptures on those those foundation.

Well, we need to know these things. But then it's a it's a bait-and-switch tactic because they're not giving you anything in the other end. You need us to tell you well, and how do you know you just need to trust us?

We will give you infallible fuzzies if you just trust us, but but I want to know what actually Paul said. Well, we don't really know What Paul said but we will will claim that there's this this nebulous oral tradition.

And we will base such dogmas as the bodily assumption of Mary and the Immaculate Conception and papal infallibility on these things. So that's what Paul was teaching. Well, we don't really know that part we're not certain about that, but.

That's that's where we get our authority and if it's not written, then it's not required. Okay.