Homework for the Cruise then Answering Catholic Answers

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white Hello testing 1 2 3.

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Hello. Hi. Nice to nice to join you Now why would why would that be down Do you do you do you sleepwalk over here and just sort of you know, play with buttons?

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I have no words I had no words You can tell we do it we do a lot of testing before the program actually we're testing everything else

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We just I just we just never figured that anybody would play with our microphones anyway must be the same guy who ran the

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The all the paper towels down to the toilet over the weekend. He's must have a poltergeist running

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I Sat there looking watching the video who did this, you know, we come in and you know There's all these paper towels have been stuffed in toilet and it's like who did this and we watched the whole pretty much the whole weekend's worth of video and you couldn't get into that that bathroom without passing one of our video cameras and There was nobody that went in there.

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I Think a bug got on the sensor. Oh Well that have to be a big bug and we all know what kind of bug that would be and I don't even want to Think about that.

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So it's Phoenix. It is Phoenix. Yes, we grow them big out here sort of like, Texas, I guess but anyway

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I walk with the dividing line. It is the week of the Easter pageant starting this evening. We will be out in Mesa, Arizona Passing at our new track, which

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I should have a copy of with me, but I don't but rich has one out there and we are currently running them in the other room actually and I wrote it and I'm very thankful that Micah has made it look much more readable

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Than it was before the lost tomb and other myths about Jesus looks really nice and What we did is we?

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Are working off of the the tomb story makes sense, I know a little something about it and we talked about that and then we talked a little about the blasphemy challenge and the assertions that Jesus is just built off of these other religions like Dionysus and and Osiris and things like that Then we transitioned into those are myths made up by secular people and then we transitioned into religious myths about Jesus so we had something about Jehovah's Witnesses and Then we transitioned into the myths presented by Mormonism and of course most of people we've asked and tracked out to our

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LDS and so that is the new tract. We will be distributing starting this evening on the street corners in Mesa, Arizona pray for us for our efforts our safety and pray likewise that If anyone else shows up to witness the

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Mormons that they will be serious and actually know what they're talking about We've had some really interesting experiences out there in Mesa over the years

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I've mentioned them many times I'm dividing line. We've had I remember I think the second maybe the second year

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We were out there maybe the third When we were really doing an outreach we had this guy who thought the best way to get rid of Mormon missionaries

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Was to give them one of the temple handshakes to so offend them that they would go running off And it's like you're trying to explain this guy dude.

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We don't want them to run off. We want to talk to them You know and That you know they're they're people who think it's really cool to yeah to do you know the pale ale stuff and and all this

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Other it's like oh, man, then of course was one year that the the door showed up The door

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Christian Fellowship not open door the door the sort of cultic group You know and they showed up, and they're passing out jack chicks big daddy tracks

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And if you don't know jack chicks big daddy tracks. They are the Anti -evolution tracks the jack chicks put out and which

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Mormons And they they just blew right by us right onto the property you know we don't go on the property

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We don't trespass you know that kind of thing and they went right in amongst the people and they had to round them all up and and So once they got booted off the property they're standing around and man the

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Mormons found out real quickly that these people Were just so easy to tie in knots they knew nothing about Mormonism and so it was it made for a very interesting

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Very very interesting period of time and of course you know the sad thing is And you can't really fault them for this that the

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Mormons aren't going to differentiate Between those folks and us and that's the that's the real thing.

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I really really really hope that the King James only folks You know had a flat tire in Ajo or something you know and and couldn't find the right the right tire for the car

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Or whatever it just just stay away. You don't know what you're talking about you make a mockery of the gospel It's just so sad these folks are going to have quite a great deal to answer for some day before the throne for those on the webcam dun dun dun

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I am holding up before the The webcam which isn't really much of webcam because it only shows one image every 10 seconds, but hey, whatever

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I'm showing to the audience in watching via the webcam You know

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I noticed today rich that I I just I printed out the graphic for the front cover And there was a copy in here from Toronto to Emmaus did not have black behind it on what was sent to us

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I I sort of like it without the black personally. I think maybe we should change that in the future, but anyway from Toronto to Emmaus My copies of course

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I mentioned the blog I got 20 copies to to get out to some folks and things like that and then they're the others are coming in and We will be shipping them out as soon as they arrive to those of you who have pre -ordered them and very happy with how the book came out and You may have noticed there are some more endorsements for the book on the the blog yesterday

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Got some other books too what I wanted to show you and again You can only see this if you've got the the webcam up.

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I don't know how long I can hold this up the heaviest books

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I have ever gotten from my library are All that sounded interesting everything just changed all over the place

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Rich is experimenting again. It just went poofy. Yeah, that reminds me of when

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I ran sound at North Phoenix and There was a there was a Amplifier that would sometimes be there and sometimes not and then just all of a sudden

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It would pop in and Richard Jackson did not like that at all and I Understand why anyway?

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Some of the heaviest books I mean the paper in this thing is you know it's that clay type paper super high quality

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I mean this thing must weigh at least 10 pounds maybe more But I found it really funny.

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This is the message of the Quran translate and explained by Muhammad Assad and That is not the same guy from 24 just so you know

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Though it sounds very much like the same guy and this is this is basically what would be called a Quranic commentary

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That's fear But some huge big thing But I'm gonna show it up here to the to the thing and see if you can yeah

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I think you can actually see that right there if I can I'm having to hold this thing way out.

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How strong is here? I think your 10 seconds are up.

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Okay good It right on the edge of the papers it has stamped

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Compliments of the compliments of the Council of American Islamic relations www .care

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.com So here's here's this huge Quranic commentary and on the side they have stamped.

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I mean it was like 40 bucks and on the side. They have stamped Compliments of care .com well, that's just what

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I want my library is something from care. That's just that's great also

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I Have oh yeah there it is okay Many of you have been asking about the books

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For the upcoming cruise and the class and I can give you some of those books Right now and you can you can start collecting them and start getting them getting them read

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There is the new edition third revised edition of the apostolic preaching of the cross by Leon Morris That's an

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Erdman's publication the apostolic preaching of the cross by Leon Morris That's could go into a lot of the the issues that we need to address

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We have a book by Gary Long the new edition from 2006 third edition of Gary Long's book definite atonement and I've I mentioned to someone in channel yesterday.

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Yeah, definite. Oh, yeah, I've got that. Do you have the 2006? no, so we'll want to have the same one and So you might want to get that even if you have the older edition then we have one

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And and any decent seminary You're going to be reading stuff by people who are not necessarily 100 % on your page, okay, and that's how you learn

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Discernment, that's how you learn to Take the good and the bad, you know The wheat in the chaff and so on so forth.

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And so we have a book by Martin Hengel Called crucifixion

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Fortress Press anything from Fortress Press is gonna cost you 14 arms and 13 legs. I Discovered that when

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I was in seminary But Fortress Press's book crucifixion in the ancient world and the folly of the message of the cross by Martin Hengel it's a translation from the

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German and I Was reading it while my oil was being changed yesterday and Fascinating information on the historical context of crucifixion the fact that people just They did not even want to make reference to it

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Because it was considered just just a horrible horrible horrible way To to die.

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I thought I saw movement there. I really honestly thought I saw movement in the in the

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Stairwell there, which is really sort of freaky Of course could be a bird

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Would be I'd be great to have a bird inside the office Rich and I are both looking at the security cameras had popped up a motion

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Detection thing in an area where there's there's not supposed to be anybody then again be careful You don't get attacked by a mad towel dispenser rich rich is going off to check these things

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If all of a sudden you hear me scream and in a door slamming and things like that that's because I'm gonna see something in the in the

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He's making faces at the camera now from the other side of the office anyways, this is live webcast we're wasting our time here

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Those are three of the books then I was looking I was going to use Owens death of death, but I noticed that in the

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Multi -volume banner of truth series of Owens books. I think it's banner of truth. I don't have it.

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I have it on CD Volume 10 of Owens works has death of death, but it also has his treatise on justice as an attribute of God Specifically in response to those who claim that God could forgive sin without Fulfilling the demands of the law now if you know anything about Islam, and you know anything about what we're doing this class

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You know why that would be vital so I'm probably gonna use volume 10 if you can't afford the I think it's a about $19 through solid ground for that one volume

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You can get this the CD version, you know, and I know a lot of folks, you know some folks like having it electronically and in printed form if you can afford to do so if you can't you can read on the

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Screen and you know PDF format from the ages library CD -ROM But I'll probably do all of volume 10 because I think that would be very useful then

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I would putting together a PDF of scholarly articles to go along with that and that will be our reading assignments for the

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For the class there is a possibility of one other book That's I do not have

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In front of me right now because it hasn't arrived yet I want to double -check it make sure that the current edition would be what we want to use etc.

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Etc alright before we get back to the Catholic answers broadcast

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I didn't finish last week you may recall that during this period of time last week

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I responded to an Email that had been sent to me in regards to Roman Catholicism and the individual who

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I responded to caught the program I guess just yesterday in the archive and Wrote back to me and since there were some misunderstandings here

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I wanted to take a few moments to clarify them because if she was Concerned and confused by a couple of things

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I said then maybe others were as as well she said that she had listened to the program and She said also yes

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I was well schooled in what scripture only and faith only mean in my peculiar brand of Protestantism Which she does not identify there is not the added word infallible

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I was taught the Bible is the sole authority in life not the sole infallible authority now I would stop right there and say okay, then there may have been some issues because I mean just on a basic simple

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Factual logical level how can the Bible be the the sole authority of?

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How to rebuild an automatic transmission? I'm watching rich and they're working with the phones again, and he's looking at the

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Manual to the phones he's not looking up Deuteronomy Okay now obviously

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I recognize that You know the overarching themes of the Lordship of Christ and things like that can you know provide the foundation for all of of Human epistemology, okay, that's fine, but the fact remains there are sub authorities there are authorities beneath scripture there are authorities outside of scripture that address issues that scripture itself does not address and So that might indicate that whatever this peculiar brand of Protestantism was

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Was non -catholic simply because it was not because it was knowledgeably

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That's that's an important distinction, I'm sort of disappearing out of my headsets here at the moment Then however

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We are told that that is semantics as the meaning of Sola, I'm gone now.

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I just disappeared. Okay. Thank you as the Meaning of solo scriptura is that only the

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Bible is infallibly and divinely inspired. That's not really what solo scriptura means Solo scriptura means the scriptures are a soul infallible rule of faith now.

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They are because they are inspired but it is not correct to say that the doctrine of solo scriptura is

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Coextensive with and to be defined equally with The doctrine of the inspiration of scripture because obviously the scriptures might teach that there are other inspired sources

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They don't but they could and that's the whole point. All right, so I want to make sure that's understood

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All scriptures inspired means only scripture is inspired to most Protestants Well, I would point out that you would have a difficult time

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From a dogmatic perspective from the Roman Catholic perspective in saying that anything outside of scripture is they are new stocks now,

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I know they're Roman Catholics who venture off into saying the scripture or the the Churches they are new sauce and things like that But how do you prove that from a dogmatic sense?

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And even if you prove that now you've just got another thing that Rome teaches that has no foundation in scripture whatsoever

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So, yeah, when you say all scripture is inspired means only scripture is inspired. Yeah How do you prove?

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Otherwise what else allegedly is inspired and how do you demonstrate that it is and how do you how do you?

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Demonstrate from history that this was what the Apostles wanted us to believe Or do you just simply overthrow all of that and say

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I don't care about any of that I am simply going to follow whatever Rome teaches me and then you have a very Small circle that you're arguing him

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And here's what I'm afraid got lost I The the email I got says as to your comment about you have to interpret the interpreter

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That is my point exactly the only way to know for certain What the author is sacred scripture means by what he wrote is to consult him directly

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The Holy Spirit is the author and therefore is the only infallible interpreter of Scripture We disagree on how we accomplish the task of consulting the

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Holy Spirit in Determining mean the Bible you hold to private study and I hold to listen to what the church teaches about scripture Again, notice the the false dichotomy

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When I when Private study that means actually studying What the original writers intended in their language and in their context in the inspired writings?

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and That's that's actually something that Rome's own leadership Highly recommends to its scholars by the way but What church?

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The idea that the church that you are following today is coextensive with the Church of Paul's day or Jesus day

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Is is the whole point it is not I mean on any level

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I've made this challenge many many times show me a single bishop at the Council of Nicaea who believes that a modern

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Roman Catholic believes On the dogmatic authority the Roman Catholic Church. You can't find one You can't find one

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There are things that the Roman Catholic Church teaches today as dogma day feed a must be accepted by faith that were utterly and totally unknown

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To the council fathers at Nicaea Unknown never heard of it. Never heard of it.

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Let alone define the gospel in that way and so Given that rather obvious fact

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Then all of the the other types of arguments. Well, we've been around for 2 ,000 years Oh, really? Do you really want to start the historical arguments you want to start looking at all the

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Popes you want to start looking at all? the the times and there was no Pope or when there were two Popes when there were three

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Popes when the two Popes Condemned each other and and all the rest. Do you really is that really how you find the voice of God is by?

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Studying the the pornocracy and trying to figure out anti Popes versus true

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Popes and and the Babylonian captivity the church and the and the Council of Constance and and the relationship of conciliarism you really have to do all that to find out what

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Paul meant in Romans 5 1 and and seemingly what I what I what

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I meant what I said and what I quoted from various sources was completely missed because Here you have individuals who are who are regularly recognized who were regularly regularly recognized by the papacy as Leading scholars saying

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I you know what the church hasn't really infallibly defined anything in regards to the interpretation of scripture even and even then even when you encounter texts like Matthew I mean if Matthew 1618 if there's if that hasn't been allegedly infallibly inspired what has been

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I'm interpreted infallibly interpreted and yet how many Catholic apologists have

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I heard who said well You know the meaning there can be polyvalent Which means only one meaning has been

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Infallibly interpreted, but but there could be other meanings that have not been infallibly interpreted And and so when you find early church fathers taking those meanings well

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You know those could be appropriate meanings as well as long as you don't deny this meaning And I mean there is no way to defeat that kind of argumentation because it has no meaning to it

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It is so circular and and so just believe what I say It's such an ipsa Dixit you can't logically refute it sort of like trying to deal with papal infallibility

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I mean let's face it the here's the functional definition of papal infallibility the

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Pope is right Except when he's wrong But when he's wrong he's not speaking as the infallible

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Pope So if what he said is right, then he was infallibly right if what he said was wrong

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He was not infallibly wrong. That's all there is to it and who decides when he's wrong No one can decide when he's wrong.

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That's just that you know I mean if later popes come along and say he was wrong

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Then he was only wrong as a private theologian not as the bishop of the church see I mean just look at you can look at honorius

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He's condemned by ecumenical councils or 400 years when the person becomes the

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Pope He has to condemn honorius as a heretic But papal infallibility is still true, so you know when something is absolutely

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Undisprovable it also has no meaning It has no meaning and and yet people so how about but I want that I want that kind of I want that kind of certainty

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The email goes on to say you refute my assertion the Holy Spirit doesn't didn't lead me to mass by saying that it isn't possible that It happened because the

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Holy Spirit would not lead me into error Yes, and I didn't then spend the time going back over everything that I've said in the past in debates so on so forth on the subject of the the mass and the blasphemy of the masses upon the completed and finished work of Jesus Christ and the contradiction between the mass and the book of Hebrews and Things like that and what

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I'm saying is if the Holy Spirit gave us the book of Hebrews the Holy Spirit did not lead you to mass to find truth

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Maybe another spirit did but not the Holy Spirit of God Then says finally Rome did not stitch up the torn veil and put a priest in front of it

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There is no veil in the mass the point is of course that the veil separated the people from the

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Holy of Holies and it was Jesus's finished work that tore that veil and removed the necessity of a sacramental priesthood that stood between the people and the

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Holy of Holies so they could only enter into the Holy of Holies by their representative priest once a year on Yom Kippur That's the point that's the point that Hebrews makes as well is that that priesthood is gone and You the fact is your your priest is offering over and over and over and over and over again the same sacrifice that perfects no one no one as long as you confess that you can go to the mass a

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Thousand times five thousand times ten thousand times in your life and die impure incomplete imperfect

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Then that's not The sacrifice of Hebrews chapter 10. That's not the sacrifice of the mass.

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And so what has been completed and finished? Okay, that that sacrifice of the mass is not the sacrifice of Christ.

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What has been completed and finished Christ is undone By Rome they have stitched the veil back up so that you have to go through a priest you have to go through his

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Sacramental Authority and you don't have that finished work. That was the point that I was attempting to to make and So I wanted to make sure those were were clear and I think they're made even more clear in the debates that we have done on those particular subjects eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

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We had started listening to a Presentation on Catholic answers and I was once again,

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I think this was what I say. This was 26. So it was just it was just I think was last I think it was a week ago today is when this was and so this is this is right up to date.

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This is exactly What how is Rome? representing her refutations of Protestant or non -catholic beliefs today.

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Do we see a Growing Understanding do we see an increasing?

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veracity and depth to the argumentation do we see increasing accuracy in representation of what is being said or Do we see the same old same old that was being used by Karl Keating back in the 1980s?

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retreaded today just repeated over and over and over again and sadly what we're here hearing is

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Exactly that being retreaded over and over and over again, and it is to me truly an example of of how

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Rome because of its epistemology because of of the fact that truly if you're a

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Consistent Roman Catholic then you have to you can't run ahead of the church You have to allow the church to to make these decisions there.

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There's no ground Especially when you you have to Dodge so many problems the historical problems the fact that the papacy itself would not exist out these fraudulent documents

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Without the suit is a Dorian suit is a Dorian decretals without the donation of Constantine The the

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Roman Catholic papacy would not have even have developed the way it developed today And yet we now know that those were frauds and yet the papacy is still there

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Foundation's gone, but the edifice is still standing When you have to deal with things like that you can't develop much of an overly truthful form of apologetic dialogue and That's what we've been been looking at in in this particular

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Section here. I'm looking up here. I just want to make sure I want to you know accuracy is important here. Yes the Jim Burnham it was actually on That would better Monday the 26th

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Jim Burnham is the one speaking and he's being sort of interviewed shall we say by Jimmy Akin, and he had to given a real sort of rough outline of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide and now they're going to go into Sola Scriptura, and we're just gonna start and stop and point out repeatedly how many times this kind of presentation

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Misrepresents the reality that it's allegedly refuting okay. Why don't we start with the first in Sola Scriptura?

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How do Protestants typically understand it, I'm sure there may be more than one way of That Sola Scriptura gets explained in Protestant circles, but what's your experience of how they typically articulate it?

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Yeah, you're right to say that Jimmy there. You know there are lots of different explanations And so you know the moment I give you one there'll be someone who'll say wait a minute

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That's not how my pastor explains it or that's not how I've heard it explained, and it's true There's a variation of thinking, but but at the at the common level

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You know when you talk to people the idea is basically found You know any time you say someone has a question about Catholicism.

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They say well. Where's purgatory found in the Bible or well? I'm gonna stop right now that they just said now You know there's different ways of explaining it, and he's saying what the common person okay?

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I can understand because when I speak I will for example say you know your your common

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Muslim will View it this way and in general a scholar an

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Apologist is going to have a more polished consistent presentation than your average person however

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We have always been an odd duck in the apologetic field and that is while While we go out to when we go out to Mesa this week

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We know what the average Mormon says, but we also know what the Mormon apologist says

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And so we want to make sure that when we represent what Mormonism as a religion teaches

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That we provide a refutation of its best form its most official form not necessarily the more easy layperson form where you can sort of get away with things and That unfortunately is

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Not what you end up hearing Especially in a context like this where you're allegedly Educating these

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Catholic listeners as to what solo scriptura is all about and so we'll continue on with that I went a little bit long in my initial explanations

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We're gonna take our break any of your phone calls continue with the interview here on the dividing line right after this

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The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the

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Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

30:41

God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

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James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

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Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.

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This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

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The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org

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The criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

31:44

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see

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The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his Word what has happened to this sacred duty in our day

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The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

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God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org

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This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church

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The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming

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Lord's Day The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45

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Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7

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The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix You can call for further information at 602 -26 -grace

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If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org

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Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day

33:51

And welcome back to the dividing line here on a Tuesday. By the way, we've got to mention

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Are we gonna change the time on Thursday? I? mean cuz Getting done at Five o 'clock on Thursday and then heading out.

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Maybe we should broadcast live from Mesa and how would we do that? I don't know. Okay Hey, you know

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We'll just take all this equipment out there and plug it into your Blackberry Yeah, well, hey, you know we might have to go to Home Depot and get a little generator

34:30

Set it up in the old Arby's parking lot. Yeah, there you go. I'm sure that would last about five minutes Oh, yeah, so we'll be all around this thing.

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What do you guys think you're doing? Uh -huh. Uh -huh So I think well, yeah, we may have to do a morning show on Thursday.

34:41

I think that would work out So, okay. All right, so that's what we'll do. I'll make sure there's don't tell anyone

34:47

We don't want anybody listening We'll still get all sorts of complaints I'll try to remember to To blog that and that will make absolutely no difference whatsoever.

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But hey, we will try let's continue With the this discussion of the soul is compared

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How do you justify this notion of asking Mary and the Saints to intercede for you? Where's that found in the

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Bible? What they're going back to is this idea that everything has to be based on the

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Bible It has to be found in the Bible if it's not in the Bible, then it's not binding

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Binding as in day feed a dogma as in something that is necessary for the people of God to believe

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Yes, most most definitely if it's not in the Bible Then if you know You don't have to believe it at times at times do they even go beyond that and convey the impression that it's it's not only

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Not binding but it's not permitted if it's not in the Bible Yeah The only things that are binding for those things that were required to believe and do are

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Expressly those things found in Scripture if it's not found in Scripture, we're not required.

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It's not required So it's basically the idea that that the sum total of God's revelation is found in the written scriptures

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Some total of God's revelation. Well, obviously we make clear distinction between what's called general

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Revelation which is in creation all around us and Special revelation which is in scripturated.

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Yes. Okay, so we're not being quite specific But evidently referring to the concept of special revelation that which is the

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Anustos is that which is in Scripture, right? if you're going to say Certainly we have you have apostolic authority saying that all

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Scripture is the Anustos So if you're going to make a claim that there is something outside of Scripture that is the

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Anustos What grounding of authority are you going to give it? How are you going to prove that what what source are you going to use?

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Can you go to the Apostles? Can you go to Jesus and remember? when you hear

36:54

I played a clip just recently of geriatrics and One of the points that I that I I made in that debate actually is in the rebuttal section we didn't play that that portion on the blog yet, but He why did play a section where I asked him he brought up the meaning of he who restrains in Paul's letter to Thessalonians And he brought up the fact that for three years

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Paul taught at Ephesus and we don't know what he taught Well, he was at Ephesus. We don't have the class notes.

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We don't have the mp3 recordings three years worth of teaching and Of course, he's right.

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We we don't have three years worth of teaching from from Paul in the scriptures and So I asked him does

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Rome tell us what Paul taught? Does Rome give us some infallible interpretation of these things that actually can be traced back to Paul?

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No, of course not and So what they do is they they attack the scriptures on those those foundation

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Well, we need to know these things but then it's a it's a bait -and -switch tactic because they're not giving you anything in the other end

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You need us to tell you well, and how do you know you just need to trust us? We will give you infallible fuzzies if you just trust us, but but I want to know what actually

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Paul said Well, we don't really know What Paul said but we will will claim that there's this this nebulous oral tradition

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And we will base such dogmas as the bodily assumption of Mary and the Immaculate Conception and papal infallibility on these things

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So that's what Paul was teaching. Well, we don't really know that part we're not certain about that, but That's that's where we get our authority and if it's not written then it's not required.

38:42

Okay? and just from the questions you mentioned like, you know, where's purgatory in the

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Bible or where is The intercession of the Blessed Virgin in the Bible those are frequently asked

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It seems with a kind of edge to them like you shouldn't be doing these if they're not in the Bible, right?

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Would you say so absolutely and that's the sense in which many of these questions get asked Yeah, and it might be due the fact that you know doing those things is expressly prohibited in Scripture, you know one mediator the grounds of mediation

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Nature of prayer is worship and and then when you start pointing out what the actual nature of worship is you end up getting this

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Well, you can't just trust what the Bible says You you need to you need to find out what st

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Cyril of Alexandria said see and if you just do that Then you discover that the incarnation isn't unique and we're all part of God and therefore since Jesus became man, then you can

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Give Veneration to anything in that's made or something like that.

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Yeah, okay And it's my recommendation that instead of you know, just answering the question straight up Obviously we can there we can show the biblical basis for purgatory.

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We can show the biblical basis for intercessory prayer Ah, I think except in a context where the other guy knows the

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Bible as well or better than you do and Then those sort of don't work real well and you try to get into first Corinthians 3 and and you actually start doing the exegesis of first Corinthians 3 and Doesn't really come out saying what you end up wanting it to say

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And so the question then becomes are you taking your traditions and reading these back into the text?

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Are you actually doing exegesis of text and of course once Rome infallibly defines these dogmas

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Then can you really honestly say that you're allowing the text to speak for itself? Can you could you honestly say no the council says first Corinthians 3 is relevant here

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There's an indicator here, but you know exegetically that's just not true And so I reject that not as a faithful Roman Catholic.

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You can't really do that Can you so can you really do exegesis as a faithful Roman Catholic and come to a conclusion different than Rome has come to?

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We should address the heart of the question the question behind the question and that is the notion that Unless it's found in Scripture.

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We have no business as Christians believing it and doing it or And this is where you know

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If you want to encounter if I would love to encounter Roman Catholic to be willing to defend the the real

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Assertion here because the current generation of Catholic apologists just don't do this They just they have been raised in the the

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Keating Madrid matic's mindset of attack attack attack attack

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The sufficiency of Scripture, and if you're successful in attacking the sufficiency of Scripture, then that somehow gives you grounds for admitting and Basing the authority of all this other stuff then just comes flooding in if you really want to prove this point

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Then you need to use the same standards of your own sources of authority that you're demanding we use the

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Bible and So you you should be demonstrating that it is apostolic teaching to Attack solo scripture the way you attack solo scripture to attack the sufficiency of Scripture and and that it should be clear

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Apostolic teaching that there's this there's this oral tradition That's not going to be inscripturated and it's only to be passed down through the

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Apostles There's only one text you can go to for that and it doesn't work for you that of course in Thessalonians So how are you going to do that?

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How are you going to? Seriously try to defend the distinctive elements that make

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Roman Catholicism Roman Catholicism And do so with it with a serious look on your face when your own people have admitted it, you know

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John Henry Cardinal Newman has to admit. Hey, you know what the early generations did not function with the papacy didn't see a need for it

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Recognizes that that's why you have to come up with a development theory and and which is really an Abandonment of the historical field of battle in the first place.

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Well, it's just all developing It's the acorn becoming the tree, you know and all the rest that kind of fun stuff, which which you know

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Sounds real good. But really, you know, I'd like to find one of these apologists and and I know that there are some really odd ones

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Out there who will actually argue, you know that everything I believe was believed from the beginning

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But they are not represented in the hierarchy of the church any longer. I Hope you recognize

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I mean, they're you know, remember Vinnie Lewis the guy said he was gonna punch me in the nose, you know and and said that You know, whatever

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Peter would say, you know, God would change the world to make sure Peter wasn't wrong and that whoo, that was that was one of the wilder ones we had and They're they're they're out there, but they're not the the mainstream

43:44

Roman Catholic apologists either and that's the notion, you know, that that You know, there's no such of sola scriptura.

43:51

It's it's really the question of authority and virtually every question in apologetics It's back to the question of authority.

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What is our ultimate authority? Yeah, as long as you accept the IPSA Dixit of Rome everything else falls into place.

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I mean once you've collapsed on that and Have decided that you know what? I don't

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I do not believe that God has made me an accountable individual before him and given me his word and calls me to to study that word and to be instructed in that word and to have any level of discernment once you've given that up and Just decide you know what?

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I Don't like I don't like the fact that there are differing viewpoints and that there are other Possibilities and so I'm going to just turn my responsibility over to somebody else and Whatever they say goes and now

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I'll have the infallible fuzzies I'll have that warm feeling that you know, here's this 2 ,000 year old church and I know

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I can't actually prove that same church But hey, it says it is so, you know, once I've done that then

44:54

I have all the answers That's not answering the question. Is it? That doesn't that doesn't get you past any of the tough questions

45:04

You know Roman Catholics like to say well, you know you struggle to address the issue of the Canon Do you think that just simply turning your mind over Rome to Rome somehow makes

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Rome's decisions on that somehow relevant somehow? infallible Inspired what are the terms you want to use?

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Don't see how that works for most Protestants the ultimate authority the sole authority is the

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Bible the Bible alone And that's why they have these these questions and so infallible

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Authority and and it with the expectation that if you can't demonstrate it from Scripture, then it really is unbiblical

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Or the Holy Spirit doesn't actually reveal that in Scripture and therefore does not convict you that you must believe it and so on so forth

45:48

Yes, we know that relationship between the Spirit and the Word, you know, very strong amongst the Reformers not overly strong amongst

45:54

Roman Catholics It is interesting to note when you read devotional works things like that Reformation emphasizes spirit in the word spirit in the word spirit in the word

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Rome emphasizes spirit in the church spirit in the church spirit in the church. That's you know, the the word becomes subsumed under the

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Broad banner of sacred tradition that which is written that which is oral the the two together in the possession of the church Therefore un -christian therefore unworthy of Belief.

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Okay. Well now that's their understanding of how things work. What's ours?

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Well, our understanding is is that the Bible Does not make such a claim

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If you read the Bible with an open mind, the Bible is very clear that God's Word God's Revelation God's truth

46:38

Comes to us in in two forms now immediately. I want to stop I Remember after my debate with Patrick Madrid in 1993

46:51

Being ravaged by some of his Buds and I think by mr. Madrid himself

46:57

And in fact, they he keeps posting references to 13 year old debates and articles and things like that And so, you know, we have to go back and visit these things being ravaged for not addressing the difference between material and formal sufficiency

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Now we had been engaged we had been debating Catholic answers for about three years at that point and The irony was this was not a distinction that they themselves make but they just discovered that it was a useful apologetic distinction to make because What you can do is you can affirm the material sufficiency of Scripture, but then not the formal sufficiency of Scripture but then you can turn around and use the arguments that that used to be used back in history and Actually be affirming the part and part of viewpoint and you can mix it all together in and When you're up against someone who can't call you on it, then you can use the old -style stuff but if you are up against someone who can call you on that then you can you can slide into the more nuanced position until they leave and then you can go back to your old ways of doing things and Here years later on Catholic answers live

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We have someone talking about these these these two sources These two sources these these these two means of revelation now is is

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Is he going to? Affirm is he gonna, you know make the distinctions He's gonna tell us whether he believes in part and part of them, or we just could get this mishmash

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You know mashed potatoes type thing that doesn't actually answer any of these questions Now we as Protestants are going to be held accountable for making sure that that we know

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Whether we're dealing with someone who who is into the part and part of viewpoint

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Which was the majority viewpoint at Trent or whether they know no No, it's you know One one source one one source of tradition and different modes and all the rest of stuff

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But they don't for some reason feel any particular need to be exceptionally

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Concerned about these things or accurate about these things. We have to be and if we're not we're stupid

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But they don't have to be What's how's how is that consistent anyways

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Some of that is written down and that's what the inspired writers of sacred scripture did under the the inspiration the

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Holy Spirit They they wrote down Much of what God wanted revealed, but that is not the sole source of God's revelation now

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I can't listen to that. I can't hear that without him saying that only a part of revelation is

49:37

In scripture, that's what he just said now again when pressed on it He may go backpedaling, you know as fast as can be but here when they're talking to their own folks you have this idea of multiple sources of revelation

49:52

You have one revelation being given in different ways and scripture does not have all of it

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This is a a denial of the the formal and material sufficiency of scripture.

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This is the part and part of viewpoint This is the viewpoint of Trent Now it's not the majority viewpoint of Roman Catholic scholarship today, but this is part and part of that I don't know how else you can you can

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Listen to what was just said and parse it and come up with anything other than that But when

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I respond to that, well, you're just so stupid. You just own it. You're misrepresenting us You don't know what you're talking about.

50:28

So Where's the source of hypocrisy here? Anyways, okay

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If the people who come after me Are not calling Catholic answer going you guys need to get your act straight

50:41

You need to start you know being specific and how you're addressing these things then

50:48

What's the problem I mean talk about a double standard and if you have to use a double standard well As someone has said inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument

50:58

God's Word also comes down to us in an oral form oral tradition So oral tradition is

51:04

God's Word and it's not found in Scripture. So that means that we can trace back historically

51:12

Where the Apostles taught these things in oral form so evidently, you know Paul wrote to the

51:18

Thessalonians and We have the written portion but then when he was teaching them orally he taught them about papal infallibility and the bodily assumption of Mary and all the rest of Stuff because that's what oral tradition is, right?

51:29

Now he was conger wouldn't agree with that and when you press these guys they go running back to those

51:34

Folks, but when they're talking their own folks Very very different present also known as sacred tradition or apostolic tradition now

51:43

No, wait a minute sacred tradition is used in all sorts of Roman Catholic writings of both the oral and the written together

51:49

Not just of the oral so he's not actually giving an overly accurate Representation even his own position at this point and and this too is a binding form of revelation and Since Scripture is clear that you know, not only is the written word binding, but the oral

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Word of God is binding Scripture is clear that the oral

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Word of God is binding. Now. Remember this is non Inscripturated and it will never be inscripturated.

52:18

So where does the Bible? Refer us to the to the oral

52:24

Word of God Is there are these the traditions of the Jews? I mean, we know the

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Jews had the same position We know the Jews for example believe that there is tradition that was passed down outside of Scripture through the great rabbis and that Was the basis of for example the

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Corban rule and we know that Jesus rejected that So why should we accept what these

52:45

Roman Catholics are saying today when Jesus taught us differently? Almost 2 ,000 years ago

52:51

Catholics take a much broader view They say God's Word all of God's Word is binding whether it comes to us in a written form

52:58

Like the sacred scriptures or whether it comes to us in an oral form Which would be the oral proclamation of Christ to the

53:05

Apostles and the oral proclamation of the Apostles to the world So that would mean that sacred tradition all the sacred tradition was preached by the

53:14

Apostles So all of these dogmas that have developed that everyone admits no one had ever heard of sometimes for 500 years

53:23

In the early church or were rejected for for a long long periods of time They must not be binding upon us and yet those are the very dogmas that Rome claims this oral tradition as the foundation of Sounds like someone is is is building a straw man

53:43

Not only in regards to sola scriptura, but to their own position Hoping that no one sees that there's a little bit of a problem here

53:51

Both of those are valid both of those are binding both of those Are authoritative for Christian?

53:57

Okay So we've seen that that many Protestants are really virtually all

54:02

Protestants would want to say that God's Word comes to us through one mode Which is through Scripture whereas Catholics would say it's it's his at least his special revelation is passed down through two modes

54:15

Scripture and tradition Why? Why would we want to adopt the Catholic position on that?

54:21

What's wrong with the idea of sola scriptura? well One basic problem with the idea of sola scriptura is that it's not taught in the scriptures

54:29

I mean if the Bible contains all essential religious truths Then it should contain the essential religious truth that all essential religious truth is in the scripture now this is again what you heard this in There was some meeting.

54:45

I don't know when it took place, but there must have been some meeting a while back many moons ago where the template

54:53

For this argument was developed because it is used over and over and over again.

54:59

In fact, I think See it's hard for me to remember which clips are on the blog and which ones are not

55:04

Obviously most of you've already figured out you could go to either my God tube listing or my

55:10

YouTube listing I've gone back to YouTube for now because God tubes still beta and I you know I uploaded a video actually watched it on it and it disappeared

55:20

So it's not actually technically supposed to launch until May 1st I don't know how much more effort

55:27

I'm gonna make to upload videos to it when they're going to disappear after I've already uploaded them I don't want to link to them and then they all just disappear later on and that still could happen

55:35

I might have to upload a whole bunch of stuff and repair all that. But anyway So I'm not sure which ones have posted yet.

55:43

And which ones I mean, I've literally what I've been doing recently is I've been putting up videos And I've been posting them for when

55:51

I know I'm gonna be traveling later this month and in May So that there will be videos appearing when

55:57

I'm in the UK or when I'm up in Anchorage or other places that I'm going to be over the next two months and So in one of those one of those particular

56:09

References one of those particular videos that I put up this exact issue

56:14

Comes up in regards to solo scriptura the nature of scriptural authority All those things along those lines so there will be more discussion of this coming up So a scriptura should be found in the scriptures so I'm gonna think now

56:31

Mm -hmm. I know it was matitix. It wasn't it wasn't It wasn't

56:37

Madrid Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was matitix who made this who made this point and my response to him when he tried to get me

56:44

To say oh, yes, the scriptures don't teach us. I say the scriptures Point us to follow only that which is they honest us that which is

56:54

God breathed and So we know you and I agree that the scriptures are they honest us

57:01

You are making the claim that there is more that I need to follow therefore you should be able to give as equally clear and strong and compelling argument that what you say

57:15

I need to believe and follow is they honest us is what I can give with the scriptures Now just think of the of the testimony that I can give from the

57:23

Apostles and Jesus To the Old Testament scriptures, for example and their inspiration their authority

57:28

Have you ever heard a Roman Catholic even come close to even trying to give that kind of level of evidence in?

57:36

support of the Roman Catholic concept of tradition they can't and So what they're doing is instead of giving a positive evidence

57:45

For the authority of their extra teachings that are clearly not biblical and we're not believed by the

57:51

Apostles And we're not taught by the Apostles and that they themselves they have to admit come from Tradition come from development over time and we're not in the earliest forms instead of giving a positive evidence of those things what they do is they attack the sufficiency of scripture and then just hope to sort of Grandfather in all the rest of stuff by saying well the

58:14

Bible doesn't say so low scriptura And that's how the argument goes we'll continue with that and take your phone calls

58:21

I'll remember Thursday morning at the red this regular time Thursday morning pray for us route

58:26

Mesa. Thanks for listening. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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