Bow Tie Dialogue: The Methodist Has Finally Arrived!!!

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the hermeneutic you use to justify women in ministry is the same hermeneutic that people use to justify homosexuality and Anybody that disagrees about that I challenge them on that point because it is the same hermeneutic

00:38

And I hit the YouTube link, don't say hit, that sounds violent, and I feel my troubles all melt away

00:48

It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Barsky Beards and bowties

00:59

Laughs till sunrise It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Barsky He's not like most

01:12

Calvinists, he's nice Your Calvinist podcast is filmed before a live studio audience

01:22

And welcome back to your Calvinist podcast. My name is Keith Barsky, and I am your

01:27

Calvinist You may notice today that I'm yes wearing the bowtie, which means we are in another

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Bowtie dialogue, which means I have invited a friend from another denomination to ask questions

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And today is the day. I've been very excited ever since I began bowtie dialogues I have said I wanted to have a conversation with a

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Methodist Many of you know if you watch my denominational videos I can sometimes be a little hard on the

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Methodist give them a little bit of a little bit of a poke Well today I have the opportunity to talk to a man who knows a ton about Methodist theology he himself is a

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Methodist preacher and He has a history in his family of being a part of the

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Methodist Church And so in just a moment, I'm going to bring him in But before I do that, I do want to remind you of just a few things about the show number one

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We are a ministry of Sovereign Grace Family Church So we want to remind you that if you're in the

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Jacksonville, Florida area come visit us at Sovereign Grace And you can find out more about us at sgfcjacks .org

02:31

Also our partner for this show is tinybibles tinybibles .com

02:36

You can go there You can get the smallest printed Bible on the market and it is available If you use my name

02:43

Keith in the discount code coupon code section You will get a discount off of your purchase

02:48

It can be used for all kinds of things can be hidden anywhere can be held as an heirloom or passed down It has a lot of different uses.

02:56

So I encourage you to go check out tinybibles .com I want to also remind you that I'm going to be preaching at a conference in just a couple of weeks in Arkansas at Pastor Wade Lentz's church and if you're in the

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Arkansas area, I know Arkansas is a state I'm trying to remember exactly the city. I had to go back I'll put it in the description where we're going to be if you're in the area

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We'd love for you to come and see us at that conference. All right, I'm gonna bring my guest in now

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We're gonna be talking about Methodism and my guest is Tim Adams the pastor of Harland Dale Methodist Church a church on the south side of San Antonio, Texas Harland Dale is over a hundred years old and about 18 months ago

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They left the United Methodist Church and has since then remained an independent congregation Tim's first Sunday as their pastor was

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July the 7th of this year And this is the fifth church that Tim has served as the pastor in addition to those churches

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He has served as an associate pastor or youth director at five other churches And although he is the great -grandson of a

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Methodist circuit rider and both his parents were raised Methodist He was raised as an independent

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Baptist but started attending Methodist churches in his 20s And so in addition to his pastoral work

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Tim has founded two faith -based nonprofits has worked as a freelance writer for over 25 years and as the father of four grown children and So Tim, thank you so much for being on your

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Calvinist podcast today. I'm so glad to have you. Howdy Keith How are you today? I'm doing well

04:29

Tim and again, I'm so thankful to have you on the show. Thank you, sir. It's my pleasure to be here

04:35

I'm a big fan Well, I appreciate that and you know, it's interesting I do want to tell them to tell the audience you reached out to me and We talked it's been a while back.

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It's been maybe even a year ago I think that we talked in and maybe not that long But and we had we've been talking about doing this for a while, but it's just in the in the providence of God It took a little longer than then.

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Maybe it should have. Yes, sir. Yeah, you had done a bowtie dialogue With an independent

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Baptist and yeah, I got that got on my radar because of my more formative years and so we had a discussion about that and I shared some of my kind of inside baseball knowledge of independent

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Baptist world and then we started talking about, you know, my Transition to Methodism and and you suggested then that you know at some point you'd have me on so hey here

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I am Yeah, and it was you who actually told me that the and you may not even know this

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You had told me that the that the global Methodist Church Affirmed women pastors because I didn't know if they if they did or not

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But you had told me in that conversation that they affirmed women pastors and I remember thinking you know,

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I didn't know that that was still going to be a thing because I didn't know enough about what the Transition out of the

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United Methodist Church in the global Methodist Church. Well later I did a denominational video where I played a global Methodist pastor and I actually brought that in So it's funny that you you actually did may not have realized you participated in the show by telling me that little fact

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I remember seeing that and asking myself that question I wonder if you know that little factoid that I shared with them

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So, well, there you go I'm already a contributor Yes, sir, yes, sir, not just a not just a viewer but you are a

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Contributor I'll give you a producer credit on that on that video Wonderful. Wonderful Well, Tim, I I want to start out by asking you a few questions about your history

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You mentioned in your bio that you were you have Methodism in your blood, you know, you're

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Great -grandfather was a was a circuit rider or was a grandfather. I Great -grandfather.

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Yep, great -grandfather and And then your parents were Methodist, but then you ended up in the Independent Baptist Church So was it because did your parents go to the

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Independent Baptist Church? Is that how you ended up there? So when my mom was in high school

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Up in Arkansas that she grew up in the foothills of the Ozarks up in Arkansas. My granddaddy was a farmer up there the local

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Baptist Church had a revival and You know, there's a small school that you went to she had 25 people in her graduating class

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So, you know, it was kind of the thing. Okay, the Baptist Church is having a revival

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So all the students from the school went showed up, you know went to the revival well, my mom walked the aisle made a profession of faith and wanted to get baptized and she along with her older brother and So our one of her older brothers are actually

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Seven kids in the family, but the closest one to her. So anyway The Baptist preacher came to make a home visit to talk to my grandparents to get their permission before You know any of their kids got baptized so The Baptist preacher rolls up one day and my granny's there, you know at the on the porch of the house

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Churning butter, you know making homemade butter there on the porch and The Baptist preacher comes up introduces himself and they began to talk and he says well miss mrs.

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Young That's my mom's maiden name young. So says mrs. Young. I hear that y 'all are

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Methodists and She says yep. We sure are both me and my husband are

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Methodists and he said well, what kind of Methodists are you and She just looked at him she said well evidently

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I'm not a very good one because I raised a bunch of Baptists and So my mom from that point on attended

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Baptist churches after she got baptized following that revival and honestly,

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I thank God she did because What she would have had to choose from among most most

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Methodist churches in terms of actually hearing the gospel and actually

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Any kind of real discipleship would have been scarce. So When she graduated from high school soon after that her older brother by that time was stationed in the army in San Antonio and so she took a job with some accounting firm and lived with my

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Uncle and his wife and they had a newborn baby My mom lived with them for a while and there was a

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Baptist Church close to where they lived And that's where she started going to church and then that's where she met my dad my dad had a

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Different kind of story, but he ended up there for kind of the same reasons the

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Methodist Church was getting liberal even back in the 50s and So anyway, that's where they met.

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That's where they got married That's where my mom raised all three of her kids That's where I got saved when

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I in Bible school when I was five I got baptized when I was nine and I was called a preacher. I was 13 and so yeah, that's

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Very important in my you know, my formative years was, you know growing up in that independent

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Baptist Church now You know, I wouldn't go I wouldn't go back there. I couldn't go back there today for a lot of reasons but still

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I Really appreciate the fact they taught me to love the Bible and there's no doubt that I developed a real love for God's Word Now I don't just love the

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King James anymore Back then that's all you could love if you're gonna love the Bible it had to be the

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King James but nonetheless, I Thank God for that that upbringing and the the grounding in Scripture I mean,

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I learned the story right from Genesis to Revelation I learned the story and I and I'm very grateful for that Well, what is it then that caused you to go back into Methodism?

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I you you so you grew up Baptist you got saved as a Baptist called to preach at 13 You were still a

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Baptist at that point What was it that changed your heart to make you want to go back when

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I say go back because of you know To the faith of your ancestors exactly so when

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I was about 16 I Came across a book written by Charles Spurgeon called the two

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Wesleys and Most people don't know it Spurgeon was a big fan of John and and and Charles Wesley Charles being

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John John being the founder of the Methodist Church Charles being his brother and very prolific him writer sure, and you know an amazing him writer, but It was a book

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I don't even know if it was 100 pages long But I read that book and it made a real impact on me.

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I was a big Spurgeon fan you know the the independent Baptist most of them love Spurgeon and but reading it also

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Which is ironic because they normally don't like Calvinists well understandably, so and you know most

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Calvinists don't aren't big fans of Wesley, but Spurgeon was Calvinist also the church where I grew up the pastor there

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He had grown up Methodist and It actually had a

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Genuine conversion experience and then been baptized In in a

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Baptist Church in his early 20s I believe and from that point on was

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Baptist and very involved in the independent Baptist movement and so He often referenced

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How growing up in the Methodist Church? He saw this liberalization that was taking place

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How that at one point in his formative years? The Methodist Church had taken out of their hymnal all the songs that mentioned the blood of Jesus and you know things like that and so Typically when

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I heard about you know Methodist I heard good things about Wesley But bad things about the

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Methodist Church from my pastor and then I read this book by Spurgeon and that even piqued my interest more and then as I got to my mid -20s and Started dating the young woman that I eventually married

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She did not come from she came about as far away from a an independent Baptist background as possible and so as kind of a compromise, you know we started talking about finding a church where we could both fit and For us that ended up being the

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United Methodist Church Because for her it had some of some of the liturgy and structure that she was used to and for me it kind of filled that love of Wesley and Family history and and some of that stuff and so that's how

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I ended up in my by the time I was in my mid -20s in the United Methodist Church and Stayed there.

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Okay through seminary and and Of all of the churches

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I pastored I did at one time pastor a Baptist Church That that's kind of a long story

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But other than that ever all most of my other ministry positions have been in Methodist churches

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I had one long tenure as a youth director in a Baptist Church and And then a about a three -year tenure as a pastor in a

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Baptist Church. But other than that, it's been all Methodist Mm -hmm. Well, I want to come back to your seminary experience because I'm very curious about that.

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But before I do The Methodist Church I know at least at one time the

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United Methodist Church was the largest denomination in of the what are sometimes known as the seven sisters of the

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Protestant I think is that what they call the seven sisters of Yeah, the mainline denominations

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Good I would say PC PC PC USA United Methodists, right the the

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Lutheran Yeah, you have you have you have a representation liberal, right? Yeah Disciples of Christ.

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Yep. Yep but the way that the Methodist spread and the reason why I'm bringing this up is because your

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Connection to your great -grandfather the way the Methodist spread and became that such of a large Denomination was because of those circuit riders.

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So it's because of that of that Evangelistic zeal and and and desire to plant churches and grow churches throughout the

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United States that once existed in the Methodist Church can you talk a little bit to that history and and and and Kind of just the because this is my thought is

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United Methodist Church is not what it is not today what it once was Is that right to say that the

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Methodist Church has has veered in many ways? Oh the United Methodist Church Now this is before and I know we'll get to this in a little bit but Not to jump ahead too far, you know, there's a there's a current schism that's taking place

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Yeah, there's a separation and so far about 9 ,000 churches nationwide have

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Disaffiliated they've gone through this disaffiliation process and left the United Methodist Church.

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So before the split The total number of United Methodist Churches nationwide

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I believe was at about 40 ,000 something like that total congregations.

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So if you went back before the big split You could probably say pretty easily that 70 % of those churches are liberal and so that obviously begs the question

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How'd they get there? And there's a whole lot of pieces to that puzzle

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But going back to the whole thing about the growth of early Methodism in the

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United States, of course Methodism started When John and Charles Wesley and George Whitfield were students at Oxford and they they started a group called the

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Holy Club and As a term of derision from other students toward them for starting this

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Holy Club they were referred to as Methodists because they had a very methodical approach to spiritual disciplines of Prayer and fasting and Bible reading and study and and and those kinds of things so out of derision they were referred to as As Methodists because you know at that point and You know,

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I had this pointed out to me recently at that point Oxford was pretty much just a finishing school

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For English nobility and it wasn't really a place where a lot of serious scholarship was either being produced or People were leaving there with a real desire to continue as theologians, so John and Charles Wesley and George Whitfield kind of bucked the trend on that and as a result got hit with this

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Label of being Methodist so a series of events take place John John Wesley at one point comes to the

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United States as a missionary is a total failure Absolute failure and we could get into the details of that, but we won't

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Just say that he went back to after about two years he goes back to England and Because of an experience that he had on the ship going to America.

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He seeks out a group of people called Moravians and One night in London He finds a group of Moravians meeting on a street called

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Aldersgate and They are beginning a study of the book of Romans and as a guide in this study of the book of Romans, they are using

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Martin Luther's commentary and so as the Introduction to Luther's commentary on Romans is being read

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Wesley kind of stump finds his way into this meeting and listens and he says that for the first time ever

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He felt his heart strangely warmed and For the first time in his life.

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He felt that he truly did trust in Christ and Christ alone for salvation and so that Launched what you know this

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Holy Club? That had begun at Oxford this really Lit the fire under it this this

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Experience that Wesley had at Aldersgate now interestingly enough his brother

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Charles Who had been ill about a week earlier to this and had an almost identical experience?

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on the sick when he was sick and in bed and So when they were able to you know, reunite get back together

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They shared with one another these experiences and you know, as I said that launched in earnest the

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Methodist movement and it gave John and Charles a sense of boldness

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You know They were told by their bishops that they could not preach in the manner that they were doing in in churches

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And so they went and resorted to what was called field preaching Outdoor preaching and they would go to the coal mines and other places

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People that were being ignored by the Church of England and they were both ordained clergy as was their father within the

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Church of England and so with this new Fire in their gut as you know the warmed heart they

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Spread this like wildfire all across England and there's all kinds of conjecture

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That's made because of the Wesleyan revival that took place in England as a result of that England avoided the the same fate that France went through in the

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French Revolution and the guillotine and the horror of that But because of the incredible revival that took place the

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Wesleyan revival there, you know England was able to avoid that violent kind of a

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Revolution because of the spiritual so Whitfield comes to America and Starts to fan the flames of that and then a couple of guys named

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Asbury and Koch who are Methodists they Are dispatched to America and they

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Start they launch what becomes the whole circuit riding system Essentially now, you know,

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I'm kind of broad brushing a lot of this for the sake of time But that's where it starts and so the the circuit system was simply this and that is you had one circuit riding pastor and my circuit by literally on horseback and They would be assigned a circuit of small churches of say two or three or four churches at a time

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That they would go to on a weekly basis and they would conduct weekly services baptize children

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Collect offerings conduct revivals do all the duties of a pastor, but do them for multiple churches at once and because of that that effort because of that model of multiplication

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Methodism was able to spread like wildfire. You didn't need you know, three or four separate pastors for each one of those churches

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Those circuit riding pastors made Incredible just amazing sacrifices to do the work that they did and so yes, my great -grandfather who was born in 1850

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And died in 1918. He died in this in the Spanish flu epidemic of 1918 that's what finally killed him, but yes, he was a a very prolific circuit rider and The the number of churches over the years that he pastored

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I found an old letter at one point that had been written Between two of his children and they recounted all the different pastorates that they had lived at over the years

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It's just it's amazing But yes That was you know that system of the of the circuit rider and and the

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Baptist in some ways Emulated this not nearly on the scale that the that the

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Methodist did I mean, that's what the Methodist always stuck to was a very methodical highly organized very structured way of approaching ministry and especially

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Spreading as the frontier. I mean you gotta you have to think about the incredible Synchronicity between the

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Methodist circuit system and the the Western expansion of America Simultaneous to each other.

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I mean they were just a natural fit So as a result by the end of the 19th century yeah, the

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Methodist Church is by far and away the largest of all the non -catholic groups in America and And that leads to a lot of problems.

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They become victims of their own success in in other ways But anyway, that's it was because of that circuit riding system that made that possible

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Yeah, and and to be clear because again some of the audience may only know modern

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Methodism Outside of having some theological differences and certainly we do with with when

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I say we I mean reform folks will have differences with Methodists But they were not far afield when it comes to like holy living and things like that.

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They they had a very strong You know understanding of God's call to holiness and and living

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Righteous life and so when we see today the promotion of things that are being promoted by the Methodist Church things that we would say

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Are ungodly lifestyles and ungodly behaviors. That's not what that that's not seminal to them.

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That was not in the beginning that's something that came afterward and So we we have this this this group that exploded through the preaching of the men that you were talking about these men going through The circuit and preaching and planning and and and building churches

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When do we see you you mentioned earlier, I think in the 50s that there was there was liberalism in the 50s

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But when do we see the real explosion of the liberalism that is is currently being seen?

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particularly in the United Methodist Church, well Ironically from really from the founding of what we now refer to as the

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United Methodist Church that Organization the United Methodist Church but Was only founded in 1968 now.

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Oh, okay. I've got a backup and and to understand the predecessors of the

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UMC and how the UMC came to be so you go back to 1844 and and You know anyone that's in America and that is a

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Methodist is simply that they're there They're a part of what's called the Methodist Episcopal Church They retained that word

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Episcopal in their title For a lot of reasons

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I think mainly because it described their polity Their their structure their system their organization.

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It was a very Episcopal Structure and that is that you had a very hierarchical

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Structure where you had bishops You had so you had the For example in the state of Texas just as an example

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You would have the state of Texas Divided into five geographic regions each region would be referred to as a conference

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Okay. Okay each conference presiding over it would have a bishop a

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Senior presiding elder that with unbelievable powers of appointment and and lots of other things

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So you had the bishop and then each conference was subdivided into areas called districts

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Each district has a district superintendent presiding over it You take those district superintendents which within the conference they comprise the bishops cabinet

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So when it's time to appoint pastors to churches, which is done on an annual basis

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There's a meeting of the bishops cabinet prior to the annual conference

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And in that meeting all the appointments are decided upon and as I said the only exceptions really in the

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UMC system in terms of if you're a pastor and which church you go to unless you're a very prominent pastor

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And unless you're at a very large church you really don't have much say about where you go you go where you're sent and And and that's part of that's part of the process.

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That's that's always been part of the system So anyway, like I said go back to 1844 everybody in the

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United States who's a Methodist they're in the Methodist Episcopal Church, but in 1844, there's a there's a

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Split over the issue of slavery So they divide into a northern group and a southern group

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Now they beat the Southern Baptist by one year on that, you know The Southern Baptist Convention came to be in 1845 over the same issue

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But in 1844 the northern and southern wings of the

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Methodist Episcopal Church divided and so you had from that point until 1939 the

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Methodist Episcopal Church South And the Methodist Episcopal Church North in 1939 they reunified

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Okay, so that's 74 years after the end of the Civil War The Methodist and if then they are just referred to as the

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Methodist Church in 1968 there's this very small group called the

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United Brethren But they are a Wesleyan group They can trace their history and their lineage directly back to Wesley.

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Okay, and they Unify with the

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Methodist Church and The new name is now the United Methodist Church to incorporate some of the

30:54

I guess to feel like you know in the United Brethren was a very small group of churches

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But nonetheless they went from being the Methodist Church to becoming the

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United Methodist Church when they unified With the United Brethren another Wesleyan group. So and that was in 1968

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They had their big General conference that year every four years the

31:20

Methodist Church the United Methodist Church has what's called General Conference and It is at the

31:26

General Conference when any kind of changes To the Book of Discipline, which is basically the

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United Methodist rule book And it addresses Issues of doctrine it addresses issues of polity issues of church property all those things any change that's going to be made to the

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Book of Discipline is There are resolutions that are introduced and they're voted on at these general conferences that take place once every four years

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So in 68 when the United Methodist Church is created their next general conference is 1972

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So in 1972 a group of more liberal United Methodist Churches introduces a resolution to speak out against and in support of The Gay Liberation Movement that had been started about night if you're familiar with the

32:28

Stonewall Incident Of 1969 that kind of spurred the whole Gay Liberation Movement, okay

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So they basically wanted to say hey we are against The harassment and the persecution of homosexual people and we believe that they are people of sacred worth and And other you know more very affirming language for homosexuality

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Now that was made a little bit easier because in 1970 the

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APA the American Psychiatric Association Had removed homosexuality out of the

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DSM the Diagnostic System of Spaniel as a mental disorder Now the politics behind that within the

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APA is a whole other story, but it's that's what it was it was political so on the heels of Stonewall the

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APA taking homosexuality out of the DSM These liberal

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United Methodist. I think were emboldened to you know Make this move and so in in response to that The more conservative wing of the

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Methodist Church said okay We're willing to say that homosexuals are people of sacred worth but we're also wanting language in there that says that the homosexual lifestyle is incompatible with biblical teaching and that no self -avowed practicing a homosexual can ever be ordained as a minister or bishop or have any leadership in the

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United Methodist Church And so that's really where the fight started on that issue

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Was that early in in the lifespan of the United Methodist Church started in 68 by 72

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They're fighting about homosexuality and that fight Extended all the way up to the current split now

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Along that same timeline you have conservative groups that emerge within the

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United Methodist Church one the confessing movement and the confessing movement

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From I think was more of a kind of an academic intellectual group

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People like Tom Oden people like Billy Abraham At one time

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Stanley Hauer was was kind of sort of part of the confessing movement then you had another group was more grassroots and lay -oriented the good news movement and they

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Were very successful at organizing Conservative people holding the

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Liberals feet to the fire. They published a monthly journal And did a good job for a long time then within the last seven or eight years there was another group that emerged and that was the

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Wesleyan Covenant Association and They eventually gave birth to what is now the global Methodist Church Which is the largest body that's come out of this current exodus of people leaving the

35:43

United Methodist Church there's a about 4 ,000 churches of the 9 ,000 that have left a little over 4 ,000 of those have affiliated with the global Methodist Church So that kind of covers a lot right there, but that's

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Now I want to just add one more thing as far as the inroads that liberalism made into Methodism I said earlier that the success that Methodism had in the 19th century and They were they became victims of their own success the they became victims in this way in my opinion and that is

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As they were so successful They started to send their clergy for training to European seminaries

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Where you had all kinds of novel ideas Philosophically and theologically

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That were being promoted and so you had the best and brightest of the

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Methodist Going to Europe for education and then importing those ideas back to America and the seeds were sown so when

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The fundamentalist modernist controversy erupts late 19th early 20th century

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The Methodist Church is primed To become a part of that and they were and so you had back then big exoduses

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Is I guess you could say that of groups you had the holiness movement you had really

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Pentecostalism comes From Methodism and you had all kinds of you know Pentecostal denominations that emerge out of that the

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Salvation Army other movements like that that come out of Methodism Because of this liberalizing influence and I mentioned earlier by the 1930s 1940s

37:43

The Methodist Church is a hymnal doesn't even have songs in it anymore because they mentioned the blood of Jesus because that's considered crude and you know, that's that that isn't keeping up with the with you know, the the the time so to speak of modernity and in a more sophisticated

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You know view of the Christian religion. So anyway, just wanted to throw that little caveat in there

38:13

No, no, but you mentioned your seminary experience Yeah, it was but but a lot of these guys were going overseas

38:21

Where did you go to school you you went to seminary while at while a Methodist I'm assuming you didn't go to Europe, right?

38:29

I Could I wouldn't count myself as one of the best in No, I At that time

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I was living in the Dallas -Fort Worth area and When I finished my undergrad work

38:48

There at TCU Bright Divinity School at TCU, which is actually a seminary affiliated with the

38:55

Disciples of Christ They had a Methodist studies program and at that time

39:01

The student body at Bright Divinity School at TCU was about 40 %

39:06

Disciples of Christ 40 % United Methodist and the other 20 % was about 19 different denominations

39:14

And so there were lots of United Methodist there because there was a

39:21

United Methodist studies program Within the curriculum at Bright that was approved by the denomination

39:28

And so if you were training for ministry, that's one option you had in terms of theological education

39:35

You didn't have to go to for example over in Dallas at SMU Southern Methodist University There's Perkins School of Theology and that was certainly another option to go to school

39:49

And that was a purely United Methodist seminary, but Bright was just as legitimate because it was an approved

39:58

Non -Methodist school because of the fact that it had a sanctioned Methodist studies program within its curriculum and so I chose bright for several different reasons

40:11

Number maybe first and I'll be honest to admit a Full scholarship is pretty hard to turn down which

40:20

I was, you know, which I was by the grace of God able to receive to go to school there they were very generous with that and and also the very ecumenical flavor that they had not only among the student body, but also amongst the faculty and But also at the same time, you know the the strong United Methodist presence and Within the conference

40:47

I was at at that time the Central Texas conference each year when people were ordained at least half of the people of the ordinance were

40:57

Graduates from bright so it was a very common thing to go to bright divinity school at TCU at that time.

41:04

I don't know How common that is anymore? You know, that was 30 years ago and things are really different now things are really different at bright

41:16

Back then it was kind of that's it was kind of a middle -of -the -road Mainline seminary it's it's hard left now

41:24

It's not what it was back then but anyway that's You know, that's kind of how

41:30

I landed, you know at bright Were those kind of a mixture of circumstances like that?

41:38

Gotcha now I do I want to I want to ask you one more question about your your seminary experience but then I want to I want to move to your church because your your church that you're pastoring now has

41:49

Left the United Methodist Church and be and they didn't join the global church. They they they became independent So I want to ask you about that.

41:55

But before we do When you were in seminary, would you consider yourself?

42:01

And and I guess maybe this Hopefully this makes sense would you have considered yourself at that point to have been

42:09

More conservative or more liberal and how was your experience in that in the seminary?

42:15

I Would you know, I guess if you as I if you took a cross -section of the student body at that time

42:22

I I would have you know leaned on the conservative side But I would also say that at that point also

42:31

Leaving my roots from an independent Baptist Church and assimilating into the

42:37

United Methodist Church, I was I Wouldn't say that I had embraced

42:46

Any liberal ideas I I could fully eat, you know, even at that point Absolutely 100 % fully affirmed the

42:53

Nicene Creed Okay absolutely 100 % without Exception Nicene Creed Apostles Creed 100 % you know behind those statements of faith, but when you got into stuff like inerrancy

43:10

That was something I was asking some questions about back then I'm not anymore

43:16

I would absolutely Affirm the Chicago statement on inerrancy just if you want to know where I am now, but you know my

43:25

For lack of a better term and I don't I don't always like using the word journey because it just sounds kind of Kind of woke ish,

43:35

I guess but no, I my my faith journey has been quite a ride to say the least and You know at that time, you know, and and that's you know, when you go to seminary you are exposed

43:50

You're supposed to be exposed to lots of different ideas and points of view now at the same time

43:58

You know, you need to understand the difference between truth and error and between heresy and and sound doctrine

44:07

I Don't think they always did a very good job of that And there were some hot -button issues back then

44:15

Homosexuality was just on the horizon back then about 30 years ago And that was one of the things honestly that was driving a lot of the more conservative

44:24

United Methodist in my conference Toward an education at bright divinity school as opposed to Perkins School of Theology at SMU was because at Perkins People were already making public statements, you know coming out so to speak in student chapel services and things like that that was

44:46

You know bright was probably ten years away from that kind of display Already are you know a full -throated endorsement of that of that lifestyle, but You know

45:00

Perkins was ahead on that on those issues now the the issue of women in ministry was something that had been completely fully embraced and You know, it was something that you either kept your mouth shut about it made your peace with are you fully endorsed

45:16

So anyway, that's yeah, you know a little little insight into the situation at bright back then

45:24

So the church that you're in now, did you? did You became the pastor in July, right?

45:31

So this has been a relatively recent Taking on as pastor. Yeah, were you?

45:38

Instrumental at all and they're adopting an independent status or did you did they call you after they had done that as a body?

45:46

nope, so As you indicated it was about 18 months ago that they went through the what was called the discernment process and at the end of that six -month period of discernment and congregational discussion and hearing from different representatives from each side

46:07

That they took a congregational vote and as long as they were able to Secure at least a 67 % majority

46:18

In favor of disaffiliation, they were allowed to leave Once they had paid some exit fees and so they they took the vote they had over 67 % and they paid their exit fees and and they left and They also

46:36

Decided at that time to have a wait -and -see attitude about the global Methodist Church I can't say that it's any particular issue about the

46:45

GMC But what they did was they went ahead and incorporated as their own 501c3

46:53

If they join the GMC, then that would be covered as a member of the GMC so they established themselves as their own 501c3 and Like I said kind of adopted a wait -and -see attitude for one thing they their pastor at that time

47:11

Had already indicated that he would be retiring sometime in the next year and they just wanted to kind of see

47:18

You know who they might come across In the meantime, and that's you know, we got introduced about January of this year was probably the first time

47:31

I was introduced to the congregation and filled the pulpit one Sunday And so then we began this conversation that the previous pastor was

47:40

Fully aware of and fully in favor of it wasn't like they were doing something behind his back

47:45

He had already said his plan was to retire and so by July 7th of this year

47:51

He had fully retired and and I was installed as the new the new pastor But Like I said, and they still have kind of a wait -and -see attitude one thing about the

48:04

GMC is You don't have to have a GMC pastor in order for the church to join the

48:12

GMC Okay So they could still technically with me as their pastor join the

48:19

GMC now if you want to know what I would do I don't have any plans To do that to join the global Methodist Church at one time

48:30

I did There were some things that happened and just some things that Honestly, I finally came to terms with in terms of my own convictions and just said, you know

48:42

This really would not be the best fit for me and so I you know

48:48

And it was really kind of a mutual agreement as well Between myself and the

48:54

GMC so no hard feelings at all none whatsoever

49:00

No acrimony. No, you know nothing like that But I would just say that yeah,

49:06

I do have some some disagreements with the GMC about some some basic issues

49:11

That I wish that they would be a little more firm and bold about that. They're not Well, if you wouldn't mind me asking just just for clarity because When I do want to ask you maybe what some of those issues are and if you if you'd prefer not to I understand

49:30

But before I do that Would you say Tim that you think that the the

49:37

United Methodists have have? abandoned Biblical Christianity is that is that is that too is that too far for someone to say because I mean

49:46

I teased a lot on My videos, you know, everybody knows I make a joke about him being progressive and everything But in this last conference this last general conference,

49:56

I watched the videos from it I heard the arguments that were being made and the All of the woke ism that was going on and the pronouns being announced and and and all of the things that were being talked

50:05

About I made a few videos sort of poking fun at it But but in sarcasm sometimes there is truth and and and I was pointing at a real issue

50:13

So as a person who's been in it, you've been ordained in it. You've been seminary through it

50:19

That's probably not the right way using that term But you know what? I mean, I say you've been you've gone to seminary in it You you've been around this, you know, like I said, it's in your blood

50:27

What are your thoughts about the UMC and then I want to ask your thoughts about the GMC Yes, I would definitely say that the

50:34

UMC is Is is long gone and honestly the more

50:43

Exposure I've had to the UMC now. I want to add to that. I I took a break from being a pastor for a few years for several different reasons and In that time was when

50:57

I founded a couple of faith -based Nonprofits and I basically for about 10 years worked as an independent urban missionary and did a lot of urban ministry with various churches and schools and ministries and nonprofits

51:13

In here in San Antonio But nonetheless when I came back

51:19

When I came back I knew what I was getting myself into but What happened was

51:26

I had read an essay essay by a guy named Billy Abraham and Billy unfortunately passed away a couple of years ago

51:34

But Billy was an absolutely brilliant man brilliant scholar brilliant person a real just just a delight and He had written this this essay called it's time for a

51:50

Mexit and it was right about the time that the brexit was taking place

51:56

Yeah in Great Britain when the UK was leaving the EU and Are gonna vote on it anyway, and he said the

52:04

United Methodist Church. These do the same thing there needs to be a vote and a separation now the way he envisioned it was that there'd be a vote and the conservatives could win the vote and claim ownership of The denomination and them and the liberals would have to leave and start their own thing, but in reality

52:26

What what has happened is the conservatives are the ones who have left now There's a whole bunch of reasons.

52:33

There's a big backstory behind that that we probably don't have the time to cover but The fact is is that these 9 ,000 or so churches have left now from the

52:47

United Methodist Church and what's left over Is what you saw at General Conference? with the pronoun usage and the change of the language in the in the discipline and everything else that they'd been waiting since 1972 to accomplish they finally in one fell swoop.

53:07

They got it all done at General Conference 2024 and so What was left before then honestly?

53:16

and I kind of kid some of my Friends who are conservative

53:21

Methodist pastors and I have a lot of them But I'd say 95 % of them have all left the

53:30

UMC now and have joined the GMC, but you know and I but I used to always kid them and that was

53:36

You guys are too nice You know, it's like there was always this 11th commandment in the

53:44

United Methodist Church whether you were conservative or liberal and that is thou shalt be nice and and I always felt like man, you guys just need to roll the sleeves up and you know

53:56

Man, if your language has to get a little salty, so be it And I don't mean, you know cursing per se, but sure, you know what?

54:05

I mean just speak bluntly to call a spade a spade and No more of this well, you know

54:14

That that got them. That's why this thing lingered For 54 years

54:21

Our 50 52 years since 19. Yes, it since 1972 52 years this open

54:33

Sword lingered and bled and got infected and everything else that happened

54:40

Along the line until finally the separation took place You know, so what is left of the

54:47

UMC now is you know, I Have a friend who grew up in in the

54:58

United Church of Christ what used to be called congregational one of the old mainline denominations well used to be called congregationalist and he now laughingly refers to them as Unitarians considering Christ Because that's

55:14

Honestly, what do you see what happens with the United Methodist Church what it looks what it looks like in 10 years if nothing else the

55:24

The conservatives that remained in the UMC especially in the United States Were a buffer and and they and they put the brakes on and They they they they they did what they could and they salvaged what they could for as long as they could

55:42

But ultimately, you know, there was just a bridge too far So yes, that's a that's kind of a very long answer to the question is

55:53

Is the UMC done? Yeah. Yeah, I would definitely say put a fork in them. They're done now the

55:59

GMC That was the second part of the question, correct? Yeah, I want to my question about the

56:06

GMC you said there was a few things that that would hold you back from you being a part of that and and I'm just curious what those things are and again,

56:16

I These may be general things or specific to you, but I was just curious what those things would be

56:22

Okay first would be Not having a strong enough statement on Scripture Okay, you can go to their website.

56:31

You can look at where they talk about Scripture They've got some great language in there that it talks about the authority of Scripture Which is great, but we can all we can

56:43

We can affirm that. Yes. Yeah, I believe in in the authority of Scripture But they never use the words inerrancy

56:57

Inerrant infallible or inspired Now, I mean at the bare minimum

57:05

You know if it's good enough for Paul to tell Timothy all

57:11

Scripture is given by inspiration of God. It is God breathes

57:17

Okay, and then if Peter can affirm the writings of Paul as Scripture Which puts them under Paul's writings under the umbrella of inspiration?

57:29

Which let's just you know, so the Bible The inspiration of Scripture it is something that's affirmed very clearly in but in both

57:40

Testaments At the bare minimum you need to be able to use that term. They don't yeah and And there's a reason for that.

57:49

It's because There are a lot of people in the GMC got

57:54

God love them But they can't use that language because that you know

58:00

They can talk about the authority of Scripture, but not about the inerrance definitely not the inerrancy not the infallibility

58:10

Or even the inspiration so that's for me That's that's a big disappointment right there for me personally another one would be a really weak statement on abortion and The people that are of the stronger pro -life segment within the

58:28

GMC They Have you know, some of them have already spoken out on this in different ways

58:37

And and I can look down the road and see that as a possible problem

58:43

That is not having a strong enough, you know, you read their statement on abortion and one paragraph sounds

58:51

Really strong pro -life and then the other one Talks about you. Well, you know we can disagree about exceptions and you know the typical

59:02

Republican thing about rape incest and the life of the mother and you know, so it's not a definitely not an abolitionist view of abortion at all and so For me that's a problem and then that and then the another one would be the the absolute requirement of affirming women in ministry and if you go before an

59:33

Ordination council in the GMC You'll be asked that question and if you can't absolutely affirm

59:42

Women in ministry in all areas of leadership as bishops district superintendents pastors or any other area of leadership

59:52

Then you're not going to be Approved you will not make any progress in the process toward ordination so, you know, and that's disappointing

01:00:04

I You know had envisioned when I came back to you know The United Methodist Church after I'd taken that break, you know,

01:00:13

I had envisioned a group that was going to at least be Kind of a local option kind of a thing where you have, you know this congregation that would say

01:00:25

Hey, we're all about women in ministry and you'd have this other congregation that says no we can't go there because The hermeneutic you use to justify women in ministry is the same hermeneutic that people use to justify homosexuality and Anybody that disagrees about that.

01:00:44

I challenge them on that point because it is the same hermeneutic and That once again, that's problematic.

01:00:51

I mean, it doesn't mean we can't have a discussion about that. It doesn't mean that we can't

01:00:58

You know have some some areas of disagreement on that But like I said,

01:01:04

I know where I stand and I and I know what I know what my convictions are and so those are just Three examples right there that I I wouldn't be a good fit in the

01:01:15

GMC Well, that was super helpful, I mean just just that outline

01:01:20

I think would be good for people to know Because in general I think many people have been

01:01:27

Supportive of the GMC as splitting away from the UMC because we see the

01:01:32

UMC going so far afield So far away and and many people have been said well, you know

01:01:38

It's good that they're splitting off that they're that they're wanting to be more conservative and yet there are still issues There's issues on inerrancy.

01:01:45

There's issues on abortion. There's issues on women in ministry and and Those are all important.

01:01:51

So so so thank you for for outlining that now Tim I I really appreciate your time

01:01:57

Dan. It's been great. I've learned a lot especially About your history and and the history of the

01:02:03

Methodist Church I do want to go to one final thing and I think this this might round it out nicely as we as we're talking about this subject

01:02:12

What do you see and I know you're not a prophet nor the son of a prophet But What do you think that the

01:02:23

GMC will grow do you think that it will Replace the UMC. Do you think the

01:02:28

UMC is going to go eventually just go away? What are your thoughts for the method for Methodism in general?

01:02:35

or do you think what your church is doing being an independent Methodist Church is Really the the way that that churches are that things are gonna happen

01:02:43

What are your thoughts for the future and you may not may not have any but I'm just curious what you what your ideas are

01:02:49

What do you think's coming down the road? Well For the GMC and it isn't just because I have many friends that have found a great place to land in the

01:03:04

GMC and And and they're good folks you know,

01:03:09

I I Really hope that they can succeed and at the same time

01:03:18

Take a a a really deep look at some of these issues for example

01:03:25

Just ask the question. How did women's ordination become the norm in the

01:03:30

United Methodist Church and Look at you know, so how did that happen? Well it happened because of second wave feminism

01:03:39

What was in other words what was going on in the larger culture Put pressure on the church to acquiesce to this cultural change of the 60s and 70s of second wave feminism

01:03:52

That's what made women's ordination now once again, they can backpedal on that and try to in my opinion twist the scriptures to say something that they don't say

01:04:07

I Think it's pretty clear what what the scripture says on that topic, but nonetheless

01:04:14

To maybe take a little you know deeper look at that and also obviously on the issue of abortion and also on the issue of the inerrancy and inspiration of scripture and But at the same time what what

01:04:33

I like As I observe the GMC is that they're putting a lot of emphasis on evangelism and I think that's absolutely wonderful I mean, you know

01:04:47

Paul said, you know some preach Christ out of contention, but nevertheless Christ is still preached and so, you know, they are preaching

01:04:57

Christ and They are doing it with much more clarity than you would have ever heard in the typical

01:05:04

United Methodist Church in the past and Definitely with much more clarity than any

01:05:10

United Methodist Church. You'll see in the future so I Applaud them for that.

01:05:16

They are preaching Jesus now at the same time, I think maybe

01:05:24

It might have a little bit too much of a kind of a Revivalistic flavor or tenor to it

01:05:32

You know, and of course Methodists kind of invented that obviously, but there's this real, you know emphasis on return to our roots and You know the camp meeting the brush arbor

01:05:45

And all that kind of thing you know, I think there's some good and some bad in that and I just you know, hope that they'll be careful with that but You know as long as they keep preaching

01:05:58

Christ and make him the sinner and preach the true gospel Then I can say, you know,

01:06:05

I mean good grief, man I mean, you know, I've got lots of friends in the reform camp and And I have learned so much from them and and I and I and I bless them and I bless their ministry but there is a lot of things

01:06:19

I still disagree about and You know So, you know, like I said kind of with that broad, you know,

01:06:27

I Hate to use the term Big Tent, but like, you know, Nicene Creed Christianity, you know

01:06:37

There's gonna be a lot of that stuff that we still Disagree about and I don't think they're minor issues

01:06:45

Inspiration inerrancy. Those are that's not a minor issue But what I think it sets you up for problems in the future what it does and I think women's ordination sets you up with problems in the future and And at risk of using the term slippery slope, but I think that's in essence what what all three of those issues do when you're not crystal clear from the very beginning and put it in the

01:07:11

DNA because what you're doing is You're setting the DNA for an organization.

01:07:17

You're setting the the DNA for a denomination Okay, and and if you're not crystal clear from the very beginning murkiness

01:07:29

Will get you nowhere you've got you know, it's either you know You've got to be you've got to be clear on those matters

01:07:39

Absolutely, and and I think you're you're you're right the Setting the

01:07:44

DNA is a very good example You're you're you're you're you're setting yourself up You're you're putting yourself in a position if there's if there's a bad gene that bad genes gonna show up later

01:07:52

That bad genes gonna gonna produce some kind of disease. So yeah, I think that's a that's a that's a good example

01:08:00

Well, Tim, I want to thank you for being on the show today I want to thank you for sharing your story with us and talking to us about Methodism and and about your history with it and I want to thank you for Preaching faithfully there even though as you said as a reformed guy, we have some differences, but you're preaching

01:08:18

Christ You're preaching in an errant scripture. You're preaching the truth of Justification by faith alone and and all of those things

01:08:24

I would say praise the Lord and I thank God for you So thank you for coming on the show. Thanks brother. God bless you

01:08:30

Keith Appreciate your ministry. Thank you I'm gonna thank you guys for being a part of the show today, and I hope you learned something from this bowtie dialogue

01:08:38

I know I did I learned a lot listening to Tim and if you have another denomination You'd like for me to talk to on a future episode

01:08:46

Or maybe a person from a denomination that you'd like to recommend you can send me that information at Keith Foskey calm

01:08:53

You can send me an email right from the website. Thanks again for listening to your Calvinist podcast My name is